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bce
06-04-2010, 09:57 PM
my top 32 going into the year


1. Mallett
2. Griffin
3. Von miller
4. Romeus
5. Baldwin
6. Ingram
7. clay
8. Dion lewis
9. anthony allen
10 jacuizz rodgers
11. i saih pead
12. ryan williams
13. Cameron heyward
14. jerel powe
15. julio jones
16. Robert sands
17. patrick peterson
18. Michael floyd
19. jeremy beal
20 pierre allen
21. jabal sheard
22. akeem ayers
23. Jarrod johnson
24. terrel pryor
25 travis benjamin
26. marcel dreus
27. adrian clayborn
28 jared crick
29 allen bailey
30. armon binns
31. wesly saunders
32 kyle rudolph.

prock
06-04-2010, 10:26 PM
If you going to make a big board, at least take the time to put full names, capitalize them, and position and college. I see a garbage thread like this with no effort put it and I don't even read it.

thenewfeature06
06-04-2010, 10:29 PM
my top 32 going into the year


1. Mallett
2. Griffin
3. Von miller
4. Romeus
5. Baldwin
6. Ingram
7. clay
8. Dion lewis
9. anthony allen
10 jacuizz rodgers
11. i saih pead
12. ryan williams
13. Cameron heyward
14. jerel powe
15. julio jones
16. Robert sands
17. patrick peterson
18. Michael floyd
19. jeremy beal
20 pierre allen
21. jabal sheard
22. akeem ayers
23. Jarrod johnson
24. terrel pryor
25 travis benjamin
26. marcel dreus
27. adrian clayborn
28 jared crick
29 allen bailey
30. armon binns
31. wesly saunders
32 kyle rudolph.


O really? Is Quinn not on that list..

TitanHope
06-04-2010, 10:43 PM
Now, now fellas. Lets not jump on the new guy. Besides, I hear this Jacuzzi Rodgers is one helluva player! ;)

Seriously though, your Top 32 isn't the common train of thought we're used to. Robert Griffin is the #2 prospect in the nation? Clay in the Top 10? Also, just a word of advice. Be sure to spell the names of the players correctly. If you can't even spell a player's name correctly, then why should I trust your knowledge or analysis beyond that?

prock
06-04-2010, 10:44 PM
OK I gave in...

There is no AJ Green, Jake Locker, or Robert Quinn on this list. I am glad you think the 3 top prospects aren't in the top 32.

thenewfeature06
06-04-2010, 10:48 PM
prock there must be something he knows that we don't? :( lolol.

bce
06-04-2010, 11:15 PM
robert quinn has production issues. he may appear on the board at some point maybe provided i see something that puts him on the board, but i question whether his status is based on back story or reality. he certainly hasnt outperformed greg romeus or von miller. to say hes the #1 player based on his production i just dont see it at this point

Aj green lacks production and i question his toughness and ability to stay uninjured, which hes yet to do.

jake locker lacks production, he seems at the moment, a creature of hype rather than that of reality

john clay had 1500 yds and 18tds, other than ingram was the most productive along with others on the list, dion lewis, ryan williams etc. i like running backs and wrs this year i see the most depth there.

I would describe robert griffin in this way. Taller, more intelligent, less troubled, mike vick clone. therefore he is #2 on my board

bearsfan_51
06-04-2010, 11:27 PM
and i question his toughness and ability to stay uninjured, which hes yet to do.
Ha! This guy is great.

JFLO
06-05-2010, 08:29 AM
I cannot believe this guy gave me flak for my big board...after looking at this one, I know not to take anything you say seriously.

I fully understand that a big board is a personalized set of rankings, but I think you are trying too hard.

Big Bird
06-05-2010, 08:37 AM
This is just terrible. There is really no place to start.

I've literally been wowed by stupidity...

bored of education
06-05-2010, 10:53 AM
i have a great ability to remain uninjured

prock
06-05-2010, 11:16 AM
The three elite prospects in this draft aren't on your board. Shhhh

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 12:10 PM
I do agree that Ryan Mallett is the top prospect in this draft, however. I don't see why the support is overwhelming for Jake Locker on here.

prock
06-05-2010, 12:23 PM
I do agree that Ryan Mallett is the top prospect in this draft, however. I don't see why the support is overwhelming for Jake Locker on here.

I think Mallet very well could be if he continues to improve as he did last year, but I think right now it has to be Locker.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 12:27 PM
I do agree that Ryan Mallett is the top prospect in this draft, however. I don't see why the support is overwhelming for Jake Locker on here.

Great arm, good mechanics and footwork, experience in a pro style offense, he can throw on the run, far more consistent than Mallett, and his athleticism and instincts as a runner are incredible for the quarterback position and something defenses have to account for, and he made huge strides under Steve Sarkisian last year and should make more progress this year.

In terms of accuracy, Locker's worst day was 51.6% against Stanford while Mallett went 34.6% against Alabama, 35.3% against Ole Miss, 41.7% against East Carolina, 43.6% against LSU, and 44.4% against Florida.

They had one team on the schedule in common which was LSU...

Mallett went 17/39 for 227, 1 TD and 1 INT while Locker went 25/45 for 321, 2 TDs, 1 INT, and had 51 yards on the ground.

I get why people like Mallett... he has a ridiculous arm, but I don't see at least right now how it's even a contest between Locker and Mallett

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 01:26 PM
For starters, Locker doesn't have a great arm, he has a good arm, and the distinction needs to be made when you're talking about a potential #1 pick.

I just don't see the polish with Locker that other people do. When I see Locker, you obviously see the natural gifts, but you also see him play indecisively, lock onto primary receivers, force throws, and have an inconsistent spiral.

I've heard Locker called a poor man's Jake Plummer (due to Plummer's superior arm strength). I think that's a fair assessment. I wouldn't consider Plummer an elite prospect coming out, so I'm unsure what makes Locker so. If I had a top 5 pick and really needed a QB I'd probably take Locker, but only because that's the way the market goes.

Mallett is no doubt raw too, but his physical potential exceeds that of Locker. He's a huge kid with a massive arm. Despite his inconsistant play, he was also more productive than Locker last year in many key categories (less interceptions, bigger YPA, more touchdowns and wins). He also played in a vastly superior defensive conference. He obviously needs another year, but if I'm thinking Spring of 2011 I'm thinking Mallett over Locker, completion % aside.

Mr.Regular
06-05-2010, 02:08 PM
Im glad someone else is giving Mallett some love.
I do like Locker too...I have them about equal in terms of prospects, but Mallet is an elite talent IMO.

He reminds me so much of JaMarcus Russell (the prospect). People forget how great of a prospect JaMarcus was....going to Oakland and being lazy is what killed him...not his skill set. Mallet has the arm, size, pocket presence, feet, and downfield vision to be an elite QB.

Locker is good in his own right, but Mallett IMO is just as good as him if not better.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 02:25 PM
For starters, Locker doesn't have a great arm, he has a good arm, and the distinction needs to be made when you're talking about a potential #1 pick.

I just don't see the polish with Locker that other people do. When I see Locker, you obviously see the natural gifts, but you also see him play indecisively, lock onto primary receivers, force throws, and have an inconsistent spiral.

I've heard Locker called a poor man's Jake Plummer (due to Plummer's superior arm strength). I think that's a fair assessment. I wouldn't consider Plummer an elite prospect coming out, so I'm unsure what makes Locker so. If I had a top 5 pick and really needed a QB I'd probably take Locker, but only because that's the way the market goes.

Mallett is no doubt raw too, but his physical potential exceeds that of Locker. He's a huge kid with a massive arm. Despite his inconsistant play, he was also more productive than Locker last year in many key categories (less interceptions, bigger YPA, more touchdowns and wins). He also played in a vastly superior defensive conference. He obviously needs another year, but if I'm thinking Spring of 2011 I'm thinking Mallett over Locker, completion % aside.
You've also got people like Scott saying that if Locker makes the same type of strides he made last year, he's going to be the best QB prospect of the last 25 years and drawing comparisons to John Elway.

Mallett's ARM has more potential, but Locker has way more physical potential because while having a great arm, he also has incredible mobility and can make plays with his legs and while Mallett is definitely not the statue some people have suggested, he's nowhere near Locker in overall athleticism.

Mallett may play in a better defensive conference, but there is no excuse for any quarterback to have 5 games under 50% in completion percentage and 2 under 40%.

Overall, Mallett played the tougher schedule, but in the one common opponent both guys played against, Locker was far and away the better quarterback and it wasn't even close.

prock
06-05-2010, 02:35 PM
I've heard Locker called a poor man's Jake Plummer (due to Plummer's superior arm strength). I think that's a fair assessment. I wouldn't consider Plummer an elite prospect coming out, so I'm unsure what makes Locker so. If I had a top 5 pick and really needed a QB I'd probably take Locker, but only because that's the way the market goes.



And I have heard Locker been compared to Elway or Young, so I would consider Locker an elite prospect. It is pretty senseless to say Locker isn't an elite prospect because Jake Plummer wasn't.

princefielder28
06-05-2010, 02:41 PM
And I have heard Locker been compared to Elway or Young, so I would consider Locker an elite prospect. It is pretty senseless to say Locker isn't an elite prospect because Jake Plummer wasn't.

Can someone explain the Steve Young comparison? Is it just because Locker excels at moving on his feet? becuase when it comes to actual play under center, dropping back, and throwing the ball, they're not that similar.

jrdrylie
06-05-2010, 03:01 PM
robert quinn has production issues. he may appear on the board at some point maybe provided i see something that puts him on the board, but i question whether his status is based on back story or reality. he certainly hasnt outperformed greg romeus or von miller. to say hes the #1 player based on his production i just dont see it at this point

Aj green lacks production and i question his toughness and ability to stay uninjured, which hes yet to do.

jake locker lacks production, he seems at the moment, a creature of hype rather than that of reality

john clay had 1500 yds and 18tds, other than ingram was the most productive along with others on the list, dion lewis, ryan williams etc. i like running backs and wrs this year i see the most depth there.

I would describe robert griffin in this way. Taller, more intelligent, less troubled, mike vick clone. therefore he is #2 on my board

You back up all of your reasoning with production. That shows you have no idea how to scout players. For example, Ron Dayne is the most productive running back in college football history, but he sucked in the NFL. Graham Harrell, Timmy Chang, and Ty Detmer are the three most productive passers in college football history, but none of them made any impact in the NFL.

As far as your actual arguments, AJ Green isn't productive? He was the SEC's second leading receiver last year in yards and receptions per game. As a freshman, he led the SEC in yards per game. And he has only been hurt the one time. So nice analysis.

As for Robert Quinn; the guy has 11 sacks last season. That was 10th best in the nation. I don't know about you, but that is pretty impressive, especially.

You also have Terrelle Pryor on your list yet criticize Locker's production. Last season, Locker out performed Pryor in every passing statistic. If you are going to use production as the means to scout players, at least make sure you do it accurately.

hockey619
06-05-2010, 03:28 PM
robert quinn has production issues. he may appear on the board at some point maybe provided i see something that puts him on the board, but i question whether his status is based on back story or reality. he certainly hasnt outperformed greg romeus or von miller. to say hes the #1 player based on his production i just dont see it at this point. Romeus - 8 sacks in 09, Quinn - 11. So take his name out right now if youre gunna use that poor reasoning. Stats are great for baseball. They mean almost nothing in football, so the argument is flawed from the start.

Aj green lacks production and i question his toughness and ability to stay uninjured, which hes yet to do. so you question his production and toughness cause of injury, but robert griffin and his one season of experience due to injury gets a pass?

jake locker lacks production, he seems at the moment, a creature of hype rather than that of reality

john clay had 1500 yds and 18tds, other than ingram was the most productive along with others on the list, dion lewis, ryan williams etc. i like running backs and wrs this year i see the most depth there. big guys who run like little guys i.e. ron dayne, lendale white, tend to fail at the next level. if your not quick enough to change directions and screw up pursuit angles or tough enough to play violently like earl campbell, your gunna struggle

I would describe robert griffin in this way. Taller, more intelligent, less troubled, mike vick clone. therefore he is #2 on my board. I actually like his potential too but thats all he is right now, hes shown flashes but hasnt proven too much yet. but why does he get credit for his upside and locker doesnt. more on locker below in the post


responses in bold above.

Did locker just get compared to jake plummer? i dont see it at all. Locker is bigger, stronger arm, definitely faster and more of a threat with his feet. I see the potential for an elway like player and been saying that since before he broke his arm sophmore year. i think he breaks out something like matt ryan did and really establishes himself as a great player this year. i know locker is already known so not much of a break out but i expect him to put the question to rest.

But im more interested in the mallet vs locker 'debate.' as of now, i dont see how it is much of one at all.

to me it looks like a elway vs marino v2.0
seriously.
look at it. mobile guy from bad team with great mechanics, not elways arm but a good one, and mobile who carries his mediocre team to a few wins vs the big guy with the huge arm who can sit in the pocket. except mallet has much farther to go to reach that level, his accuracy needs a lot of work and his reads could too.

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 03:35 PM
And I have heard Locker been compared to Elway or Young, so I would consider Locker an elite prospect. It is pretty senseless to say Locker isn't an elite prospect because Jake Plummer wasn't.
Locker doesn't have **** on Elway. If Scott said that he is out of his mind. Locker's arm isn't even close to Elway's.

It's not senseless, because Locker is of a similar physical talent as Plummer was, with even less tangible results.

I make it seem like I'm bashing Locker, I'm not. I think he's a top 5 prospect, but the love on here is getting stupid. He's not Elway, he's not even close.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 03:38 PM
Locker doesn't have **** on Elway. If Scott said that he is out of his mind. Locker's arm isn't even close to Elway's.

It's not senseless, because Locker is of a similar physical talent as Plummer was, with even less tangible results.

I make it seem like I'm bashing Locker, I'm not. I think he's a top 5 prospect, but the love on here is getting stupid. He's not Elway, he's not even close.

Even if he's not close to Elway, he's much better than Mallett

Sniper
06-05-2010, 04:08 PM
Even if he's not close to Elway, he's much better than Mallett

No, he's not.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 04:10 PM
No, he's not.
In a world where accuracy and completing passes doesn't matter and Kyle Boller is awesome, probably not, but in the real world, yes, he is, at least right now.

prock
06-05-2010, 04:28 PM
Locker doesn't have **** on Elway. If Scott said that he is out of his mind. Locker's arm isn't even close to Elway's.

It's not senseless, because Locker is of a similar physical talent as Plummer was, with even less tangible results.

I make it seem like I'm bashing Locker, I'm not. I think he's a top 5 prospect, but the love on here is getting stupid. He's not Elway, he's not even close.

I am not saying Locker is Elway or Young, but those comparisons have been made. My point was that just because he has a similar skill set as a player doesn't mean he is that player, i.e. you saying you can't understand people thinking Locker is an elite prospect because Plummer wasn't.

Even if he's not close to Elway, he's much better than Mallett

Not true. Right now, I think Locker is the better prospect. Mallet is really raw, but if he improves at the same rate he did last year, then Mallet will definitely surpass Locker. Mallet and Locker are pretty close now, but if I had to put money on it, Locker will be the second quarterback taken.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 04:36 PM
Not true. Right now, I think Locker is the better prospect. Mallet is really raw, but if he improves at the same rate he did last year, then Mallet will definitely surpass Locker. Mallet and Locker are pretty close now, but if I had to put money on it, Locker will be the second quarterback taken.
I hope you're right, because nothing would make me happier than Locker ending up going to the Browns, while a guy who couldn't break 50% completions in 5 games last season goes before him

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 04:38 PM
My point was that just because he has a similar skill set as a player doesn't mean he is that player, i.e. you saying you can't understand people thinking Locker is an elite prospect because Plummer wasn't.
It doesn't mean he is that player, no, but I do think it's fair to use comparisons when talking about his skill set. Plummer was a great college quarterback and a good NFL quarterback, so it's not like he's being compared to Jim Drunkenmiller o something.

If Locker actually had a skill set similar to John Elway's, we would be talking about a sure-fire #1 pick, even if he falls on his face like a like Ryan Leaf. He doesn't have those skills, however. He doesn't have the arm and he doesn't have the production.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 04:39 PM
If Locker actually had a skill set similar to John Elway's, we would be talking about a sure-fire #1 pick, even if he falls on his face like a like Ryan Leaf. He doesn't have those skills, however. He doesn't have the arm and he doesn't have the production.
But while you're saying he's wrong or out of his mind or whatever, that's exactly what Scott said on his last podcast and basically called him a lock for the #1 pick

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 04:41 PM
I hope you're right, because nothing would make me happier than Locker ending up going to the Browns, while a guy who couldn't break 50% completions in 5 games last season goes before him
That's such a cherry picked stat. Locker has a 58.2% completion rate, Mallett has a 55.8% completion rate against better defenses. Wow...

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 04:42 PM
But while you're saying he's wrong or out of his mind or whatever, that's exactly what Scott said on his last podcast and basically called him a lock for the #1 pick
Ok, I think think Scott is wrong. I very often disagree with Scott. Even if he is a lock for the #1 pick, comparing him to Elway is ******* crazy.

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 04:44 PM
Locker threw for over 300 yards once, while Mallett threw for over 300 yards 5 times. Holy jeez, Mallett is five times the quarterback Locker is!!!

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 04:44 PM
That's such a cherry picked stat. Locker has a 58.2% completion rate, Mallett has a 55.8% completion rate against better defenses. Wow...
How in the hell is that cherry picked? It's 5 games out of 13 that he couldn't break 50%. That's a huge and legitimate concern, especially considering the pass happy Bobby Petrino offense he's playing in.

He tore up Eastern Michigan, Missouri State, Troy, and South Carolina to get his completion percentage up to that 55.8%.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 04:48 PM
Ok, I think think Scott is wrong. I very often disagree with Scott. Even if he is a lock for the #1 pick, comparing him to Elway is ******* crazy.
The comparison to Elway was in the context that he makes the same kind of strides he did last year.
Locker threw for over 300 yards once, while Mallett threw for over 300 yards 5 times. Holy jeez, Mallett is five times the quarterback Locker is!!!
Meh... if you don't think being that wildly inconsistent in terms of accuracy is a legitimate concern, I don't know what to tell you.

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 04:53 PM
Meh... if you don't think being that wildly inconsistent in terms of accuracy is a legitimate concern, I don't know what to tell you.
Of course it's a legit concern. I'm not saying Mallett should be a lock for the #1 pick, I'm just saying that Locker shouldn't be either.

For all the talk about Locker being more accurate and more mobile, he threw more picks, was sacked more, won less, and had a lower YPA than Mallett. Not to mention his arm is unquestionably weaker.

So yeah, accuracy is important, so is throwing ability, pocket awareness, decision making, and production.

TitanHope
06-05-2010, 04:55 PM
I'm apprehensive of Mallet. I know he can launch a ball through the side of a barn, but the chance he accidentally throws the ball 5 yards over said barn is just as possible. Some throws just wow me, and others make me shake my head and and go, "What was he tryin' there?" But then again, Stafford was like that to me.

I haven't watched enough of Locker to make my own opinion, which could be a good or bad thing for him. I will say that I saw a throw by him on ESPN, and it was one of the prettiest passes I've seen. Just a perfect, tight spiral.

Both of these guys will go high because of their skillsets and because they're coming from pro-style offenses, which means the translation of their skills will be smoother. I can see why some are high on Locker and Mallet, but I can't grasp how you'd be real low on either (like the OP is on Locker). Unless maybe you're frightened by the stories about Mallet's character and possibly low intangibles.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 05:03 PM
Of course it's a legit concern. I'm not saying Mallett should be a lock for the #1 pick, I'm just saying that Locker shouldn't be either.

For all the talk about Locker being more accurate and more mobile, he threw more picks, was sacked more, won less, and had a lower YPA than Mallett. Not to mention his arm is unquestionably weaker.

So yeah, accuracy is important, so is throwing ability, pocket awareness, decision making, and production.
How many people have Mallett type arm strength? Locker's is more than adequate to get the job done.

And I'm sure part of the fact that Locker took more sacks is due to the fact he probably tried to do too much with his legs at times, his OLine sucked too and he had little in terms of weapons.

Locker played his first year in a Pro Style system, while Mallett was in his second in Petrino's pass happy, QB friendly offense. As for wins, it certainly didnt hurt Arkansas playing out of conference schedule included Missouri State, Troy, and Eastern Michigan while Washington played LSU, Notre Dame, and Idaho. Washington was a win better in conference play.

Locker's making NFL reads and throws now while Mallett is not and will not be until he gets to the NFL, so in that respect Locker will have a 2 year head start and you can't ignore Locker's legs either with 388 yards on the ground and another 7 TDs

TACKLE
06-05-2010, 05:08 PM
I have gone back and forth on Locker and Mallett. They are going to be the top two prospects in next years draft. But to conclusively say that Locker is way better than Mallett is misguided. Both players bring a special skill-set to the table. Locker is a pro-style QB with elite athleticism who has been forced to carry his team on his back his whole career. Ryan Mallett may be the most gifted passer we've seen in 10-15 years. His ability to drive the ball down the field is the best I've ever seen since following the draft. He has a really nice delivery though he will need to tighten up his footwork. But don't forget, '09 was his first full year as a starter. Both Locker and Mallett are top-notch competitors. Both have accuracy issues (like most other former #1 QB's in their sophomore and junior year) and both will need to develop as passers. At this point, it really comes down to what you what style of QB you prefer.

RealityCheck
06-05-2010, 05:13 PM
robert quinn has production issues.
11 sacks as a sophomore. Imagine the damage he will do as a junior.

You'd rather include Isaiah Pead, who's mediocre at best, Dion Lewis who isn't even eligible, and Terrelle Pryor who can't play his own position well?

An a wildcat QB at #2? Explain. Now.

Please, do us a favor. Kill yourself.

Sniper
06-05-2010, 05:32 PM
In a world where accuracy and completing passes doesn't matter and Kyle Boller is awesome, probably not, but in the real world, yes, he is, at least right now.

I believe I heard a stat that Arkansas had the most dropped passes in the nation last year. That certainly can't help Mallett's cause.

Locker is absurdly overrated. He barely beat the worst USC team in almost a decade at home that was starting a terrible backup QB and ever since then, people won't shut up about him. Enough already.

jrdrylie
06-05-2010, 05:42 PM
Mallett's 55% completion rate is very bad considering he runs a spread offense. Completion percentages in those types of offenses are very often inflated. Colt McCoy had over 70%, Tim Tebow was at 68%, Keenum and LeFevor also at 70%. The spread offense lends itself to higher percentage passing yet Mallett couldn't even break 60%? Very questionable accuracy if you ask me.

RealityCheck
06-05-2010, 06:02 PM
I believe I heard a stat that Arkansas had the most dropped passes in the nation last year. That certainly can't help Mallett's cause.
Maybe that's because Arkansas' WRs suck bad?

Sniper
06-05-2010, 06:19 PM
Maybe that's because Arkansas' WRs suck bad?

That may very well be, but I'm not sure how Mallett should be docked for that.

Don Vito
06-05-2010, 06:24 PM
Anyone who watched Arky play last year knows that their receivers could not catch anything. I don't think I have ever seen a receiving corps struggle in big time football ever as much as the Razorbacks did last year, DJ Williams is their only pass catcher who was close to consistent. They have a ton of talent around Mallett too, if they put it together Mallett could rape this year.

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 06:28 PM
wow....where to start?...oh yea, at the very top, where the hell is quinn?????

bearsfan_51
06-05-2010, 07:03 PM
Please, do us a favor. Kill yourself.
I'm guessing you weren't meaning to be literal, and I'm far from the nicest guy on these boards, but having a different opinion on players is hardly sufficient reason to say something like this.

RealityCheck
06-05-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm guessing you weren't meaning to be literal, and I'm far from the nicest guy on these boards, but having a different opinion on players is hardly sufficient reason to say something like this.
It was clearly a joke. You know I don't wish death to anyone.

Or do I?

superman8456
06-05-2010, 07:20 PM
11 sacks as a sophomore. Imagine the damage he will do as a junior.



I dont know. Simply running around offensive tackles will only work for so long.

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 07:24 PM
I dont know. Simply running around offensive tackles will only work for so long.


worked out pretty well for lawrence taylor and derrick thomas...but i agree he could add some moves where he dips inside a bit more, he has the size and athleticism to do it and a great coach so it shouldnt be a problem.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 07:29 PM
worked out pretty well for lawrence taylor and derrick thomas...but i agree he could add some moves where he dips inside a bit more, he has the size and athleticism to do it and a great coach so it shouldnt be a problem.
Yes... those 2 only had one move.

What?

TitanHope
06-05-2010, 07:33 PM
Mallett's 55% completion rate is very bad considering he runs a spread offense. Completion percentages in those types of offenses are very often inflated. Colt McCoy had over 70%, Tim Tebow was at 68%, Keenum and LeFevor also at 70%. The spread offense lends itself to higher percentage passing yet Mallett couldn't even break 60%? Very questionable accuracy if you ask me.

Arky doesn't run a conventional spread. I'm pretty sure Petrino runs a pro-style offense because Mallet takes snaps from under center. So yeah, they spread guys out and it's a good bit of 3-step drops/quick read passes, but that's because their strength is Mallet and his passing. So the offense isn't like the one McCoy ran, or even close to Meyer's spread-option.


@ Arky WR's debate: Greg Childs "Please!" and D.J. Williams are pretty good players, so it's not like Mallet isn't surrounded by anybody. I'm wondering what a "dropped pass" is to the stat keeper. Do they only count catchable balls, or do they subscribe to the "If it hits your hands, you should catch it" mentality? Because errant throws can lead to dropped passes, and a dropped pass when the receiver has to make a tremendous catch in order to catch it isn't necessarily all on the receiver, in my opinion.

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 07:34 PM
Yes... those 2 only had one move.

What?

who said they only had 1 move....were talking about running around offensive tackles and the above 2 did it quite often, MUCH more so than any kind of inside move....plus coming out of college, yea thats was about the extent of their moves esp. as sophomores.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 07:39 PM
who said they only had 1 move....were talking about running around offensive tackles and the above 2 did it quite often, MUCH more so than any kind of inside move....plus coming out of college, yea thats was about the extent of their moves.

I think superman just inferred that, but I could be wrong and he wouldn't be far off, although Quinn uses his hands well. If he had tackles believing he could go inside more or had another move, it would make his outside move more dangerous, but as it is, a lot of his plays are just going outside.

And no, Lawrence Taylor went #2 overall out of North Carolina because he could do a little more than just an outside rush

Derrick Thomas went #4.

superman8456
06-05-2010, 07:40 PM
I think one of Mallett's best games was against LSU. Mallett went 17/39, throwing for 227 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT. While his stat line may not be that impressive, he showed me a lot during that game.

His accuracy is EXTREMELY underrated. He is a spot on passer. Granted, his accuracy can become a little streaky, but that is nothing to worry about. During the LSU game, Mallett put the team on his back and did pretty much everything he could to get them to win. He stood in the pocket and seemed to have a great feel for the pass rush. He moved around well and even showed a little of how well he throws on the run (even though he is not fleet of foot in the slightest).

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 07:49 PM
And no, Lawrence Taylor went #2 overall out of North Carolina because he could do a little more than just an outside rush

Derrick Thomas went #4.

quinn will go top 4, possibly but not probably top 2 cause this draft is loaded at the q.b. position and the top 2 picks will probably need one.

Legend234
06-05-2010, 07:58 PM
I don't get why some people are so critical of other people's rankings. I get that this is a forum and people are supposed to say what they think of other people's opinions, but at the same time, I doubt anyone on this forum has seen enough film on these players to call someone else's rankings stupid.

I always find it funny at this time of year when people argue about who is a better corner or offensive tackle, but what are these opinions based on?

People seem so sure that robert quinn is a top notch prospect, people think he is amazing because of his video on you tube, but its a highlight video so of course there is going to be highlights. I would want to see three full games of his before I form an opinion. Has anyone watched all of quinn's plays for 3 games?

All im saying with this is don't be so critical of this guy's opinions. Until these players go on to the NFL, we can't really say who has the best big board.

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 08:03 PM
I don't get why some people are so critical of other people's rankings. I get that this is a forum and people are supposed to say what they think of other people's opinions, but at the same time, I doubt anyone on this forum has seen enough film on these players to call someone else's rankings stupid.

I always find it funny at this time of year when people argue about who is a better corner or offensive tackle, but what are these opinions based on?

People seem so sure that robert quinn is a top notch prospect, people think he is amazing because of his video on you tube, but its a highlight video so of course there is going to be highlights. I would want to see three full games of his before I form an opinion. Has anyone watched all of quinn's plays for 3 games?

All im saying with this is don't be so critical of this guy's opinions. Until these players go on to the NFL, we can't really say who has the best big board.

yea but his reasoning is assinine....he clasims quinn to be unprodutive and went on to rank a bunch of far less productive players ahead of him...COME ON MAN!

Legend234
06-05-2010, 08:20 PM
I agree, Quinn is has been productive although even in his highlight video, he doesn't show alot of pass rush moves. I have to say I was alot more impressed with terrell suggs if I am comparing the way they look on video and suggs was picked at number 10. I would give suggs the egde in first step quickness, pass rush moves, and hitting ability. As I say with all these prospects, I really hope he becomes the player that everyone think he can be.

wonderbredd24
06-05-2010, 08:25 PM
I agree, Quinn is has been productive although even in his highlight video, he doesn't show alot of pass rush moves. I have to say I was alot more impressed with terrell suggs if I am comparing the way they look on video and suggs was picked at number 10. I would give suggs the egde in first step quickness, pass rush moves, and hitting ability. As I say with all these prospects, I really hope he becomes the player that everyone think he can be.
Let's see what Quinn does as a junior. He's helped by having a lot of talent around him, but with the athleticism he has and the way he's able to use his hands, if he can incorporate another great move or just something to keep the offensive linemen guessing, he's going to be elite and he could make a nice impact as a rookie in the NFL.

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 09:38 PM
I agree, Quinn is has been productive although even in his highlight video, he doesn't show alot of pass rush moves. I have to say I was alot more impressed with terrell suggs if I am comparing the way they look on video and suggs was picked at number 10. I would give suggs the egde in first step quickness, pass rush moves, and hitting ability. As I say with all these prospects, I really hope he becomes the player that everyone think he can be.

1) quinns first step is just as good if not better than suggs, so quick that he's literally dominating without having alot of moves.

2) he will test at the combine much better than suggs.

3) he has all the tools (size, length, balance, quickness, hands) to develope moves when needed and a GREAT defensive minded head coach with nfl experience to help him there....he will dominate this season and be the gem on an absolutely loaded defense.

roscoesdad27
06-05-2010, 09:39 PM
Let's see what Quinn does as a junior. He's helped by having a lot of talent around him, but with the athleticism he has and the way he's able to use his hands, if he can incorporate another great move or just something to keep the offensive linemen guessing, he's going to be elite and he could make a nice impact as a rookie in the NFL.

agreed...i'm projecting that he developes into the total package this season and thus have him my #1 overall prospect.

bce
06-07-2010, 11:17 AM
Great arm, good mechanics and footwork, experience in a pro style offense, he can throw on the run, far more consistent than Mallett, and his athleticism and instincts as a runner are incredible for the quarterback position and something defenses have to account for, and he made huge strides under Steve Sarkisian last year and should make more progress this year.

In terms of accuracy, Locker's worst day was 51.6% against Stanford while Mallett went 34.6% against Alabama, 35.3% against Ole Miss, 41.7% against East Carolina, 43.6% against LSU, and 44.4% against Florida.

They had one team on the schedule in common which was LSU...

Mallett went 17/39 for 227, 1 TD and 1 INT while Locker went 25/45 for 321, 2 TDs, 1 INT, and had 51 yards on the ground.

I get why people like Mallett... he has a ridiculous arm, but I don't see at least right now how it's even a contest between Locker and Mallett

my only answer to this would be look at the schedule. bad game vs alabama. best defense in college. was not a bad game vs florida. second best defense in college. then youve got ole miss another top defense. lsu another top defense. then east carolina, another top defense. all these teams that he had these"bad" games against have multiple nfl draft picks on their defense. and finally, they won against east carolina, took florida and lsu to the last play of the game, and were right in the game the whole way vs ole miss. the only game he struggled was vs bama, but to that i ask, who didnt struggle vs bama? 3600 30-7 against that schedule dwarfs 2500 21 11 of jake locker vs the little sisters of the poor. also in that lsu game, locker led a 90 yard end of game all passing drive including a last second td pass when the game was already over, so the big numbers are quite skewed with regards to that and also vs lsu malett led a 2 minute drive that forced the game into ot.

Other than his physical skills though mallett shows 2 traits that put him above the rest. 1. Hes a 4th quarter qb, leads game winning game tying drives at the end of games. Hes very "clutch" as they say. 2. They are threat to win any game he plays in, see florida.

bce
06-07-2010, 11:20 AM
You've also got people like Scott saying that if Locker makes the same type of strides he made last year, he's going to be the best QB prospect of the last 25 years and drawing comparisons to John Elway.

Mallett's ARM has more potential, but Locker has way more physical potential because while having a great arm, he also has incredible mobility and can make plays with his legs and while Mallett is definitely not the statue some people have suggested, he's nowhere near Locker in overall athleticism.

Mallett may play in a better defensive conference, but there is no excuse for any quarterback to have 5 games under 50% in completion percentage and 2 under 40%.

Overall, Mallett played the tougher schedule, but in the one common opponent both guys played against, Locker was far and away the better quarterback and it wasn't even close.

best prospect in the last 25 years. ill wait for locker to actually win some and put up some numbers that anywhere near justify that. Youre talking about better than troy aikman or peyton manning or i could probably put 50 guys on that list that hed have to be better than to be the best prospect in 25 years. This is a guy with a career losing record. the best qb prospect in the last 25 years doesnt have a losing record.

bce
06-07-2010, 11:26 AM
From a "purely physical" standpoint, and I want to emphasize "purely physical", the best prospect in the last 25 years in Malett. Plus he shows taraits of being clutch and performing well under pressure. again from a "purely physical" standpoint, hes the best ever. we know thats not everything of course, so I wont go as far as saying hes the best prospect ever, but hes showing traits, along with the off the charts physical ability.

bce
06-07-2010, 11:49 AM
You back up all of your reasoning with production. That shows you have no idea how to scout players. For example, Ron Dayne is the most productive running back in college football history, but he sucked in the NFL. Graham Harrell, Timmy Chang, and Ty Detmer are the three most productive passers in college football history, but none of them made any impact in the NFL.

As far as your actual arguments, AJ Green isn't productive? He was the SEC's second leading receiver last year in yards and receptions per game. As a freshman, he led the SEC in yards per game. And he has only been hurt the one time. So nice analysis.

As for Robert Quinn; the guy has 11 sacks last season. That was 10th best in the nation. I don't know about you, but that is pretty impressive, especially.

You also have Terrelle Pryor on your list yet criticize Locker's production. Last season, Locker out performed Pryor in every passing statistic. If you are going to use production as the means to scout players, at least make sure you do it accurately.


If you look at things just from a percentage standpoint, players that produce in college are generally the ones that produce in the nfl. Yes there have been productive college players who have flopped at the nfl level. But i challenge you to go through a list of elite nfl players and find many that didnt produce at a high level in college. Von miller had 17 sacks. Greg romeus has 26 in the last 2 years. I saw quinn play 2 games and theres one issue mainly that I saw. Quinn doesnt beat people off the ball as much as I would like to see. To make him the #1 prospect overall right now, when others have performed better, It just doesnt make much sense to me at this point, but hes certainly a player of interest, but others have been better, but i look forward to quinn Im going to watch him a lot.

Locker may have outperformed him by some margin in statistics, but pryor has few things going for him over Locker. His throwing arm is far superior as far as strength. Terrel pryor has a top end nfl level throwing arm. He is a far superior athlete to jake locker. The offesne he plays in is very conservative as far as throwing the ball. The defenses and overall strategy of the big ten is more of a defensive and running strategy. Most importantly though, in 2 years as a starter theyve won the big ten both years. What i dont like about jake locker that i like about terrel pryor is that hes a winner. he wins. Jake locker doesnt win. A super qb should be worth at least 5 wins a year or so, at least thats what theyre worth in the nfl.

The only reason pryor isnt a top 5 talent has mainly to do with throwing accuracy. He doesnt show accuracy enough to say this guys a lock great qb. But he has great physical ability, and hes a winner, and when you are physically gifted and you win a lot Its worth a shot late in rd 1 to get potential super qb, It doesnt cost that much and if he pans out, youre getting a world class bargain.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 11:54 AM
my only answer to this would be look at the schedule. bad game vs alabama. best defense in college. was not a bad game vs florida. second best defense in college. then youve got ole miss another top defense. lsu another top defense. then east carolina, another top defense. all these teams that he had these"bad" games against have multiple nfl draft picks on their defense. and finally, they won against east carolina, took florida and lsu to the last play of the game, and were right in the game the whole way vs ole miss. the only game he struggled was vs bama, but to that i ask, who didnt struggle vs bama? 3600 30-7 against that schedule dwarfs 2500 21 11 of jake locker vs the little sisters of the poor. also in that lsu game, locker led a 90 yard end of game all passing drive including a last second td pass when the game was already over, so the big numbers are quite skewed with regards to that and also vs lsu malett led a 2 minute drive that forced the game into ot.

Other than his physical skills though mallett shows 2 traits that put him above the rest. 1. Hes a 4th quarter qb, leads game winning game tying drives at the end of games. Hes very "clutch" as they say. 2. They are threat to win any game he plays in, see florida.
Find me another top prospect quarterback that has struggled that much with accuracy in 5 games in a season. Matt Stafford as a sophomore had 3 games where he barely dipped under 50% with 43.2% against against South Carolina, 48.3% against Georgia Tech, and 48.5% against Tennessee. He had 0 games under 50% as a junior.

And what exactly makes Ryan Mallett clutch in the 4th quarter? Their closest margin of victory was 17 points outside of their bowl game. Beyond that, they lost to LSU by 3, Florida by 3, and Ole Miss by 13.

As for Locker, in the game vs. LSU, the game was in doubt until the middle of the 4th quarter when the LSU player made that nice tip it to himself pick six that sealed the game.

You can have Mallett. I'll take Locker and I'm not looking back.

bce
06-07-2010, 11:58 AM
That's such a cherry picked stat. Locker has a 58.2% completion rate, Mallett has a 55.8% completion rate against better defenses. Wow...


Exactly. If you take out the bama and florida games, I wonder what maletts completion percentage would be. This idea that jake locker has done all these great things is not based on fact. Hes not completing ahigh percentage, against bad teams nonetheless, hes not making big plays, hes not throwing a lot of touchdowns, and most importantly of all, hes not winning. Hes not winning. Hes not a winner. One win against the worst usc team in the last 10 years where you scored 17 points it doesnt justify anything. There is nothing based on fact with regards to jake locker. Theres nothing quantifiable out there where you could say this guys the best prospect. hes middling everywhere. hes middling in physical ability, hes middling in accuracy in decision making, hes middling in athletic ability,hes middling statistically, and hes not even middling where it counts most which is wins and losses. There has to be something based on fact in order for someone to be a great prospect. You just cant say hes the next steve young or god forbid the best qb prospect in the last 25 years based on how hes performed.

Brent
06-07-2010, 12:01 PM
I believe I heard a stat that Arkansas had the most dropped passes in the nation last year. That certainly can't help Mallett's cause
Wait, you mean base an opinion on more than just the stats I looked up on ESPN? **** that. I'd rather make shoddy opinions based on random games I've watched and highlights on YouTube.

bce
06-07-2010, 12:07 PM
Aj green had 800 yds, did not have double digit tds and averaged 14 ypc. And hes had injury issues. Im not going to use a top 10 pick on a guy that has that type production and has toughness and injury issues 1. Becuase wrs dont have that type positon value and 2. There are others who have performed better that dont have injury or toughness issues. He has physical talent, but the translation on the field has been middling.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 12:13 PM
Exactly. If you take out the bama and florida games, I wonder what maletts completion percentage would be. This idea that jake locker has done all these great things is not based on fact. Hes not completing ahigh percentage, against bad teams nonetheless, hes not making big plays, hes not throwing a lot of touchdowns, and most importantly of all, hes not winning. Hes not winning. Hes not a winner. One win against the worst usc team in the last 10 years where you scored 17 points it doesnt justify anything. There is nothing based on fact with regards to jake locker. Theres nothing quantifiable out there where you could say this guys the best prospect. hes middling everywhere. hes middling in physical ability, hes middling in accuracy in decision making, hes middling in athletic ability,hes middling statistically, and hes not even middling where it counts most which is wins and losses. There has to be something based on fact in order for someone to be a great prospect. You just cant say hes the next steve young or god forbid the best qb prospect in the last 25 years based on how hes performed.
So Mallett gets the benefit of the doubt playing like **** against good defenses, but Locker doesn't for playing well against lesser defenses even though he played far better against their one common opponent? Ok

And how many dropped passes would it take for Mallett's completion percentage in those games to be good? I don't doubt he was victimized by drops in part because he throws so damn hard, but there's a documented problem with accuracy that goes well beyond looking up youtube ****

As for Locker's middling physical ability? Hilarious

bce
06-07-2010, 12:14 PM
11 sacks as a sophomore. Imagine the damage he will do as a junior.

You'd rather include Isaiah Pead, who's mediocre at best, Dion Lewis who isn't even eligible, and Terrelle Pryor who can't play his own position well?

An a wildcat QB at #2? Explain. Now.

Please, do us a favor. Kill yourself.

Actually dion lewis is eligible, he spent a year at prep school, and i fully expect him to come out. Isaiah pead, didnt have a lot of yards, but i saw him play maybe 4 times, and very time he touched the ball something good happened. he averaged about 6 per carry. Its a good year for running backs. I guess hes the wildcard so to speak but my rating for pead was based on what i saw him do when he got the ball, in much more limited number of chances than the others. Same with anthony allen, didnt get the ball as much, but what happened when he got the ball was what struck me. Allen and pead made big things happen when they got the ball.

bce
06-07-2010, 12:18 PM
I think one of Mallett's best games was against LSU. Mallett went 17/39, throwing for 227 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT. While his stat line may not be that impressive, he showed me a lot during that game.

His accuracy is EXTREMELY underrated. He is a spot on passer. Granted, his accuracy can become a little streaky, but that is nothing to worry about. During the LSU game, Mallett put the team on his back and did pretty much everything he could to get them to win. He stood in the pocket and seemed to have a great feel for the pass rush. He moved around well and even showed a little of how well he throws on the run (even though he is not fleet of foot in the slightest).


best game vs florida. best game any qb had the whole year. They were playing demolition derby with mallet, he didnt complete a high percentage, but the ones he did complete made joe haden look like he shouldnt have been on the field. he didnt throw any picks in the game either, and they should have won the game. That was the game that sold me.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 12:20 PM
best game vs florida. best game any qb had the whole year. They were playing demolition derby with mallet, he didnt complete a high percentage, but the ones he did complete made joe haden look like he shouldnt have been on the field. he didnt throw any picks in the game either, and they should have won the game. That was the game that sold me.

Personally, I thought his best game was against Georgia... he threw some really nice balls with great touch in that game for the 5 TDs

bce
06-07-2010, 12:25 PM
I don't get why some people are so critical of other people's rankings. I get that this is a forum and people are supposed to say what they think of other people's opinions, but at the same time, I doubt anyone on this forum has seen enough film on these players to call someone else's rankings stupid.

I always find it funny at this time of year when people argue about who is a better corner or offensive tackle, but what are these opinions based on?

People seem so sure that robert quinn is a top notch prospect, people think he is amazing because of his video on you tube, but its a highlight video so of course there is going to be highlights. I would want to see three full games of his before I form an opinion. Has anyone watched all of quinn's plays for 3 games?

All im saying with this is don't be so critical of this guy's opinions. Until these players go on to the NFL, we can't really say who has the best big board.


Yes thats why im not sold. I have no problem with criticism. I do however have issue with "opinion not based on fact". Theres back story with robert quinn and that concerns me as well

bce
06-07-2010, 12:26 PM
So Mallett gets the benefit of the doubt playing like **** against good defenses, but Locker doesn't for playing well against lesser defenses even though he played far better against their one common opponent? Ok

And how many dropped passes would it take for Mallett's completion percentage in those games to be good? I don't doubt he was victimized by drops in part because he throws so damn hard, but there's a documented problem with accuracy that goes well beyond looking up youtube ****

As for Locker's middling physical ability? Hilarious


Again, tell me where hes not middling. I have no issue with any statements or opinions, as long as those opinions are based on some semblance of fact.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 12:29 PM
Again, tell me where hes not middling. I have no issue with any statements or opinions, as long as those opinions are based on some semblance of fact.
Watch the tape of the kid... he has more than enough arm to make deep throws. If not for Mallett having an out of this world arm, I doubt anyone would even bring up Locker's arm. And on top of that, the kid's legs are ridiculous. I'm not going to get into his 40 time, because I don't care... the fact is the kid is fast on film and isn't getting caught from behind often.

bce
06-07-2010, 12:32 PM
Find me another top prospect quarterback that has struggled that much with accuracy in 5 games in a season. Matt Stafford as a sophomore had 3 games where he barely dipped under 50% with 43.2% against against South Carolina, 48.3% against Georgia Tech, and 48.5% against Tennessee. He had 0 games under 50% as a junior.

And what exactly makes Ryan Mallett clutch in the 4th quarter? Their closest margin of victory was 17 points outside of their bowl game. Beyond that, they lost to LSU by 3, Florida by 3, and Ole Miss by 13.

As for Locker, in the game vs. LSU, the game was in doubt until the middle of the 4th quarter when the LSU player made that nice tip it to himself pick six that sealed the game.

You can have Mallett. I'll take Locker and I'm not looking back.


Ok so now malletts a junior, lets see how many games under 50% hes has. Right so the game was in doubt until locker threw a pick six, so it can be said that locker lost the game for them? And then padded his stats with a last minute 90 yard td drive after he lost the game for them already. Cannot that be said is what happened? So they lost to the second best team in the country by 3 and whatver lsu was maybe top 15 by 3, both games which he led socring drives at the end of the game to give his team a chance to win. and then you can throw for 400yds score 41 poitns and lose to georgia

bce
06-07-2010, 12:38 PM
Watch the tape of the kid... he has more than enough arm to make deep throws. If not for Mallett having an out of this world arm, I doubt anyone would even bring up Locker's arm. And on top of that, the kid's legs are ridiculous. I'm not going to get into his 40 time, because I don't care... the fact is the kid is fast on film and isn't getting caught from behind often.

again hes middling in arm strength. maybe not against the whole of college football, but against robert griffin, ryan mallett, jarrod johnson and terrel pryor and against the nfl level hes middling. Hes middling in statistics, hes middling in athletic ability, Hes middling in arm strength, hes middling in accuracy, hes middling in production, and hes not even middling in winning. Hes the bottom in winning and its not really even close. Alright done with locker mallett said my peace so anything outside of malett locker or robert quinn ill be happy to comment on

bce
06-07-2010, 12:40 PM
Watch the tape of the kid... he has more than enough arm to make deep throws. If not for Mallett having an out of this world arm, I doubt anyone would even bring up Locker's arm. And on top of that, the kid's legs are ridiculous. I'm not going to get into his 40 time, because I don't care... the fact is the kid is fast on film and isn't getting caught from behind often.

The idea that this guy will be running away from nfl defenders is opinion not based on fact. Vince young doesnt run away from nfl defenders all day, so the idea that jake locker will is opinion not based on fact. The idea that hes going to run faster than robert griffin is opinion not based on fact. Alright thats it im done with it.

bce
06-07-2010, 12:42 PM
yea but his reasoning is assinine....he clasims quinn to be unprodutive and went on to rank a bunch of far less productive players ahead of him...COME ON MAN!

You mean von miller and greg romeus were less productive than quinn. thats opinion not based on fact.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 12:46 PM
The idea that this guy will be running away from nfl defenders is opinion not based on fact. Vince young doesnt run away from nfl defenders all day, so the idea that jake locker will is opinion not based on fact. The idea that hes going to run faster than robert griffin is opinion not based on fact. Alright thats it im done with it.
I don't think he will be running away from NFL defenders by any stretch and if he tries to lower the shoulder and power over someone, that would be a mistake as well. However, he does have enough speed to make NFL defenses have to account for it

bce
06-07-2010, 12:47 PM
Personally, I thought his best game was against Georgia... he threw some really nice balls with great touch in that game for the 5 TDs


The difference for me was the amount of pressure and the talent level of the opposition, and what he did at the end of the florida game. A quarterbacks best game isnt always his best statistical game, but the georgia game just shows if he has time to stand back there and throw what hes capable of doing. The florida game shows what hes capable of doing under the toughest of conditions against the best. Youre not going to get 400 yds and throw 5 tds vs florida or bama defense. it didnt happen. wasnt going to happen.

bce
06-07-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't think he will be running away from NFL defenders by any stretch and if he tries to lower the shoulder and power over someone, that would be a mistake as well. However, he does have enough speed to make NFL defenses have to account for it


Nfl defenses i dont believe account for quaterback speed. They account for out of pocket mobility, moreso by qbs beating them with the pass out of the pocket, but as far as concerns of a qb beating them running the football before they give him a concussion or break his body some other way, i cant agree with that. I also cant agree that in a world where linebackers run 4.5s and dbs run 4.4s that jake locker is going to be outrunning too many guys out there. I dont take speed or running ability into account for qbs. Out of Pocket mobility is a nice bonus but not a necessary requirement. ever seen tom brady run, its not pretty. The big problem is injuries. I remember pat white tried to play qb he was in for one series tried to run and he got knocked out of the game. There are no running qbs. Injuries and paycheck amounts are the issue.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 01:02 PM
Nfl defenses i dont believe account for quaterback speed. They account for out of pocket mobility, moreso by qbs beating them with the pass out of the pocket, but as far as concerns of a qb beating them running the football before they give him a concussion or break his body some other way, i cant agree with that. I also cant agree that in a world where linebackers run 4.5s and dbs run 4.4s that jake locker is going to be outrunning too many guys out there. I dont take speed or running ability into account for qbs. Out of Pocket mobility is a nice bonus but not a necessary requirement. ever seen tom brady run, its not pretty. The big problem is injuries. I remember pat white tried to play qb he was in for one series tried to run and he got knocked out of the game. There are no running qbs. Injuries and paycheck amounts are the issue.

Jake Locker is not going to be drafted because he run, but it is certainly a nice addition to an overall nice package. Unless they are picking you for the wildcat package, you gotta be able to pass to become an NFL quarterback. Do you need escapability to be a quarterback? No. Would the Patriots like Tom Brady to have 4.4-4.5 speed and the ability to run for a few yards every so often? Absolutely, they would.

bce
06-07-2010, 01:13 PM
i think theyre happy with him just the way he is. If you have pocket mobility and can complete passes outside the pocket, thats a nice bonus. But not a requirement. I dont see the package though. I see a lot of mid level characteristics in jake locker. Mid level arm, as compared to the nfl level, mid level production, mid level accuracy, mid level decision making, and low level winning. Those are the issues at this point I see with jake locker. A lot of mid level characteristics and not many high level characteristics. so thats it.

prock
06-07-2010, 03:02 PM
i think theyre happy with him just the way he is. If you have pocket mobility and can complete passes outside the pocket, thats a nice bonus. But not a requirement. I dont see the package though. I see a lot of mid level characteristics in jake locker. Mid level arm, as compared to the nfl level, mid level production, mid level accuracy, mid level decision making, and low level winning. Those are the issues at this point I see with jake locker. A lot of mid level characteristics and not many high level characteristics. so thats it.

Jake Locker has a good arm, I don't know why people rip on his arm so much. As wonderbred said, if people weren't comparing him to Mallet, I doubt anyone would rip on his arm. He has a stronger arm than a lot of NFL quarterbacks. And you criticize his accuracy while Mallet threw for LESS THAN 50% in 5 games. You predict that he won't have those bad of games anymore, but you don't think Locker will improve? You are picking and choosing facts to help your case and it is embarrassing. He has shown questionable decision making at times, but he will improve it. He has a whole season left in college. He has played on a ******* garbage Washington team that would have won 1 game without Locker at quarterback, so keep criticizing his winning, because you sound stupid. He is a hell of a scrambler. If you don't think Locker is one of the top 32 prospects this year, I refuse to argue with you because you obviously haven't watched the kid play ever.

Mallet is a big arm with nice mechanics. He hasn't shown any touch or accuracy. He isn't very mobile at all. I think both Mallet and Locker will be elite prospects and be the top two prospects next year, but you throw out this garbage big board with garbage reasoning and think it is fact. Shhh.

wonderbredd24
06-07-2010, 03:06 PM
Mallet is a big arm with nice mechanics. He hasn't shown any touch or accuracy. He isn't very mobile at all. I think both Mallet and Locker will be elite prospects and be the top two prospects next year, but you throw out this garbage big board with garbage reasoning and think it is fact. Shhh.
Mallett actually has some nice touch on some of his throws and he makes some 'wow' throws both with his arm strength, but some of his touch passes as well. With him, it's all about consistency, because he can make some of those incredible throws, but then turns around and misses a wide open receiver on a 3rd and 7.

bce
06-07-2010, 03:30 PM
Jake Locker has a good arm, I don't know why people rip on his arm so much. As wonderbred said, if people weren't comparing him to Mallet, I doubt anyone would rip on his arm. He has a stronger arm than a lot of NFL quarterbacks. And you criticize his accuracy while Mallet threw for LESS THAN 50% in 5 games. You predict that he won't have those bad of games anymore, but you don't think Locker will improve? You are picking and choosing facts to help your case and it is embarrassing. He has shown questionable decision making at times, but he will improve it. He has a whole season left in college. He has played on a ******* garbage Washington team that would have won 1 game without Locker at quarterback, so keep criticizing his winning, because you sound stupid. He is a hell of a scrambler. If you don't think Locker is one of the top 32 prospects this year, I refuse to argue with you because you obviously haven't watched the kid play ever.

Mallet is a big arm with nice mechanics. He hasn't shown any touch or accuracy. He isn't very mobile at all. I think both Mallet and Locker will be elite prospects and be the top two prospects next year, but you throw out this garbage big board with garbage reasoning and think it is fact. Shhh.


He has the same completion percentage as jake locker, against a much much much higher standard of competition, with 10 more tds and 1000 more yards.

Its not ripping on his arm, he just has a mid level arm at best. He doesnt have a great throwing arm by nfl standards.

I didnt predict anything. I just ask you to look at who those games were against, the circumstances as to why maybe that happened. You didnt see him struggling against any middling defenses. When you play the best, you dont get 400 yds and 5 tds and complete 70%.

You can say im stupid or whatever and thats fine, but I base my statements on what goes on between the white lines. I dont speculate or project. Either I see it or i dont. I dont see it with jake locker, and every fact backs it up. Everything is speculation with this guy. If he had a better team, if this if that. Im still waiting for any concrete fact about the greatness of jake locker as a prospect. Because its not happening between the white lines, and hes not by any means an ultra physically gifted player, even with his "scrambling" which pales by far to that of terrel pryor or robert griffin. Its all speculation at this point with jake locker. There is nothing proven in fact with regards to jake locker. As far as winning goes, well thats what makes the great ones great. if he was great he could elevate that team to a higher level. You dont see any good nfl starters who were losers at the college level. Its just all speculation and ifs with jake locker.

Paranoidmoonduck
06-07-2010, 04:10 PM
There's little doubt who has the better arm between Locker and Mallett, but I think too much is being made of Locker's "lack" of arm strength. He's got a better arm than Brady Quinn, Matt Ryan, Sam Bradford, Jimmy Clausen, Mark Sanchez, and many more guys considered at one time or another to be top prospects. His short range zip isn't astonishing or anything, but he puts good velocity on intermediate throws and doesn't have to put huge effort into delivering accurate passes that exceed 40 yards. His throwing ability reminds me of Roethlisberger coming out with maybe slightly less pop on certain midrange throws.

What I like about Locker is the way he led that Washington offense last year. People don't really get how bad that team is until you watch them play against your team. There were several times I watched the Huskies play last year where they were clearly the less talented team in almost every category and they still won because the opposing defense couldn't handle Locker. It didn't make for prolific stats for Locker, but I honestly couldn't care less about that. The one thing I want to see from a quarterback prospect once I know he's talented enough is for him to be really tested. Jake Locker was tested more heavily last season about four times as much as Sam Bradford was tested over his entire college career and passed with close to flying colors in my book.

I think Locker is going to profile really similarly to the way Donovan McNabb did coming out of Syracuse. Both will have left college a little raw as passers but with strong mechanics, great ability to throw on the run, and well above average abilities as deep passers. Locker won't be a finished product even after this year, but you'd be a fool to discount the immense potential he's shown leading that Washington team.

bce
06-07-2010, 04:25 PM
What did he lead them to? Other than a 17 point output against the worst usc team in 10 years and a game losing pick 6 vs lsu. Arkansas was clearly less talented than the competition too. Again, its all speculation. Theres no proof out there about jake locker. I dont see above nfl average abilities in jake locker. What abilities does he have that are "well above nfl level"? The guys you compared him to at the beginning are mid level talents or busts. So what he has a better arm than mark sanchez. So does the rest of the nfl world. Now if you siad he was on par with ben roethlisberger or eli manning I would say ok, this guy is legit. But hes not. Hes on par with jimmy claussen and mark sanchez. The comparisons speak for themsleves. Youre comparing him with the sub elites or those unproven.

Im sorry slightly less pop than ben roethlisberger or putting his throwing anywhere near that catgeory is false. Ben has a cannon to match anyone. There is no comparison there. Youre talking about one of the elite arms on the planet and putting jake locker in the category with the two time thats right two super bowl champion and one of the best throwers of the football on the planet its opinion certainly not based on fact. Ben roethlisberger is much more akin to Ryan malletts throwing arm than it is to that of jake locker. Mallett would be a good comparison for ben roethlisbergers all time superstar cannon. Id put jake locker more in the mark sanchez category.

Paranoidmoonduck
06-07-2010, 05:01 PM
Mallett blows Roethlisberger out of the water in regards to arm strength. Roethlisberger had the tendency to really bullet the ball back at Miami, but his arm strength has been functional at the NFL level mostly in respect to his ability to throw the ball deep. Mallett's arm strength is much more akin to guys like JaMarcus Russell, capable of throwing intermediate to deep throws without even putting much in the way of touch on the ball. I don't really think Roethlisberger is ultimately a great comparison for Locker though, which I why I offered the McNabb comparison in much greater detail.

I said Locker's arm strength was better than all those guys I listed, not that it was the same, and I did so because it's quite obvious that knocking a guy on arm strength is not a legitimate argument for why that guy won't go high in the NFL Draft or why that guy won't succeed in the NFL. Does having a brilliantly amazing arm help? Yes. Does it guarantee success or even indicate that you have a better chance to succeed? All evidence points to no. Locker's overall throwing ability is easily on par or better than the group of quarterbacks who have gone in the first round over the past decade and is considerably better than a lot of quarterbacks who have been immensely successful in the NFL. Recognizing that, I don't really have much interest having a conversation on arm strength and pretend that it really means much of anything past a certain point.

I'm also not interested in discussing the relative talent levels of the two teams. Washington was worse and had the harder schedule it's not even close to close. At all.

This is the NFL Draft. It is, by definition, speculation. It's the reason we use the word "prospect". That said, there are things Locker does really well. He moves in the pocket really well and more importantly keeps his eyes down field as he does so. He reads all three levels of the field well and reads across the field pretty well. He's been given a full plate when it comes to the kind of processing an NFL quarterback needs to do (something that can't be said about Mallett, although I expect that will change in this coming season). He's got plus potential as a deep passer, something he exhibited a lot last season.

I honestly have no problem with someone rating Locker below Mallett. They are really close in my book, I just prefer Locker more heading into the season. What I don't understand is not rating Locker in the top 32 at all. The number of logical issues you can find with not ranking Locker due to supposed "lack of production" and then ranking Robert Griffin at #2 due to his potential, then leaving Green and Quinn off the top 32 is baffling, makes entirely no sense to me and strikes me more as a cry for attention than an decision that is informed by some sort of real order.

yourfavestoner
06-07-2010, 05:31 PM
Classic case of tearing one prospect down to build another one up.

hockey619
06-07-2010, 05:33 PM
You mean von miller and greg romeus were less productive than quinn. thats opinion not based on fact.

Your fact is not based on fact:


Greg Romeus
Tackles - 43
Solo - 22
Ast - 21
SACKS - 8

Robert Quinn
Tackles - 58
Solo - 35
Ast - 17
SACKS - 11

If you go strictly off of stats like you do, which is stupid to begin with, but Romeus is still inferior to Quinn in everything except assisted tackles. Try again.

prock
06-07-2010, 05:36 PM
He has the same completion percentage as jake locker, against a much much much higher standard of competition, with 10 more tds and 1000 more yards.

Its not ripping on his arm, he just has a mid level arm at best. He doesnt have a great throwing arm by nfl standards.

I didnt predict anything. I just ask you to look at who those games were against, the circumstances as to why maybe that happened. You didnt see him struggling against any middling defenses. When you play the best, you dont get 400 yds and 5 tds and complete 70%.

You can say im stupid or whatever and thats fine, but I base my statements on what goes on between the white lines. I dont speculate or project. Either I see it or i dont. I dont see it with jake locker, and every fact backs it up. Everything is speculation with this guy. If he had a better team, if this if that. Im still waiting for any concrete fact about the greatness of jake locker as a prospect. Because its not happening between the white lines, and hes not by any means an ultra physically gifted player, even with his "scrambling" which pales by far to that of terrel pryor or robert griffin. Its all speculation at this point with jake locker. There is nothing proven in fact with regards to jake locker. As far as winning goes, well thats what makes the great ones great. if he was great he could elevate that team to a higher level. You dont see any good nfl starters who were losers at the college level. Its just all speculation and ifs with jake locker.

So you think a guy like Robert Griffen or Terrel Pryor will be better NFL quarterbacks than Jake Locker?

hockey619
06-07-2010, 05:43 PM
What did he lead them to? Other than a 17 point output against the worst usc team in 10 years and a game losing pick 6 vs lsu. Arkansas was clearly less talented than the competition too. Again, its all speculation. Theres no proof out there about jake locker.also no proof out there about Mallett. see i can throw stupid bs around too. I dont see above nfl average abilities in jake lockerleadership, toughness, mobility, system hes coming out of, his rate of improvement, intelligence, and his arm but seeing as how your hell bent on it being terrible seems pointless to argue cause thats just up to the individual. What abilities does he have that are "well above nfl level"? see previous boldedThe guys you compared him to at the beginning are mid level talents or busts. So what he has a better arm than mark sanchez. So does the rest of the nfl world. Now if you siad he was on par with ben roethlisberger or eli manning I would say ok, this guy is legit. But hes not.your right, id say his arm is better than Eli's and definitely arguable with Ben, though slight edge to Ben for now, Locker's arm will get stronger like Ben's did Hes on par with jimmy claussen and mark sanchez. The comparisons speak for themsleves. Youre comparing him with the sub elites or those unproven.fine i think hes like elway. no, i wont back it up. see there you go now im comparing him to someone great so he must be great right? or how bout steve young? or spider man?

Im sorry slightly less pop than ben roethlisberger or putting his throwing anywhere near that catgeory is false.no its close. bens got him for now but locker will get older and stronger. coming out i dont think theres any gap between them at all Ben has a cannon to match anyone. There is no comparison there. Youre talking about one of the elite arms on the planet and putting jake locker in the category with the two time thats right two super bowl champion and one of the best throwers of the football on the planet its opinion certainly not based on fact.the same amazing thrower who threw for 4, yes 4 completions in his first super bowl win? cause he carried them to that right? almost as many rape accusations as completions Ben roethlisberger is much more akin to Ryan malletts throwing arm than it is to that of jake locker.no id say malletts is a bit stronger already actually. hes almost on the russell level of arm strength and thats saying something Mallett would be a good comparison for ben roethlisbergers all time superstar cannon. Id put jake locker more in the mark sanchez category.


responses in bold.

Im not on the Mallett gravy train yet. He needs to be more consistent with his ball placement and footwork to improve his consistency and show some more touch to help his guys out so they wont drop quite as many. If he can do that then he'll be a hell of a prospect.

yourfavestoner
06-07-2010, 05:47 PM
Also, when did Roethlisberger develop this super-cannon?

Yet another common draft misconception. Big dude automatially equals big arm.

Ben's got a strong arm, sure, but I'm not even sure it's top 5 in the league.

bce
06-07-2010, 06:02 PM
Mallett blows Roethlisberger out of the water in regards to arm strength. Roethlisberger had the tendency to really bullet the ball back at Miami, but his arm strength has been functional at the NFL level mostly in respect to his ability to throw the ball deep. Mallett's arm strength is much more akin to guys like JaMarcus Russell, capable of throwing intermediate to deep throws without even putting much in the way of touch on the ball. I don't really think Roethlisberger is ultimately a great comparison for Locker though, which I why I offered the McNabb comparison in much greater detail.

I said Locker's arm strength was better than all those guys I listed, not that it was the same, and I did so because it's quite obvious that knocking a guy on arm strength is not a legitimate argument for why that guy won't go high in the NFL Draft or why that guy won't succeed in the NFL. Does having a brilliantly amazing arm help? Yes. Does it guarantee success or even indicate that you have a better chance to succeed? All evidence points to no. Locker's overall throwing ability is easily on par or better than the group of quarterbacks who have gone in the first round over the past decade and is considerably better than a lot of quarterbacks who have been immensely successful in the NFL. Recognizing that, I don't really have much interest having a conversation on arm strength and pretend that it really means much of anything past a certain point.

I'm also not interested in discussing the relative talent levels of the two teams. Washington was worse and had the harder schedule it's not even close to close. At all.

This is the NFL Draft. It is, by definition, speculation. It's the reason we use the word "prospect". That said, there are things Locker does really well. He moves in the pocket really well and more importantly keeps his eyes down field as he does so. He reads all three levels of the field well and reads across the field pretty well. He's been given a full plate when it comes to the kind of processing an NFL quarterback needs to do (something that can't be said about Mallett, although I expect that will change in this coming season). He's got plus potential as a deep passer, something he exhibited a lot last season.

I honestly have no problem with someone rating Locker below Mallett. They are really close in my book, I just prefer Locker more heading into the season. What I don't understand is not rating Locker in the top 32 at all. The number of logical issues you can find with not ranking Locker due to supposed "lack of production" and then ranking Robert Griffin at #2 due to his potential, then leaving Green and Quinn off the top 32 entirely makes no sense to me and strikes me more as a cry for attention than an decision that is informed by some sort of real order.


Griffin was more productive than locker, and more accurate and a better athlete. as he has 19 tds and 3 picks including 209 straight without an interception. He has a better arm, is a better athlete, more accurate, better decision maker etc etc etc. Im not dragging down locker to improve mallett. I dont have to do that he speaks for himself. Same with terrel pryor. As stated before he has accuracy issues, but as far arm strength and pure physical ability, and of course as far as winning football games, terrel pryor is superior to jake locker. Hes outperformed jake locker.

Bottom line is this, theres nothing based on fact regarding jake locker. Its all speculation. Hes proven nothing other than that some former gm whispered in mel kipers ear that he was a superstar. The key word being "former gm".

I stated why i dont like green. He hasnt produced at the highest level and he has injury issues. Hes "soft" as they say, and hes produced like an average player. I would agree he is talented, but to use a top 5 pick on a player who is oft injured and shows toughness concerns along with middling production, Im not going to go that way. Thats the "detroit lion way". I dont go the "detroit lion way"

Greg romeus has 3 years of production he has above 20 sacks in the last 2 years so it is not opinion not based on fact. I think ive said it previous i dont have issue with the NC guy, someday he may be on my board. But I think his ranking has more to do at this point with his back story than it does with reality.

Nobody blows ben roethlisberger away in anything having to do with playing qb. So lets put that to bed right now, including Ryan mallett throwing the football. There is no throw Ben cant make at the elite level. None zilch nada, none, every throw humanly possible is in the arsenal.

Its not a cry for attention. Its a reality based formula. What goes on between the white lines is my primary determining factor. Secondary is triangle numbers etc etc, third is off field transgressions. Mel kiper or scott wright dont determine my board, becuase mel kiper and scott wright have a history of being wrong. So to just blindly follow the herd is going to the slaughter if you ask me. To say what everyone else says is a prescription to be wrong a lot. I dont like to be wrong a lot. It happens surely, but my goal is for it to happen less. If I just follow the herd so to speak, Im going to be wrong far more often than Id like to be.

Paranoidmoonduck
06-07-2010, 07:39 PM
Let's do this bit by bit...

Griffin was more productive than locker, and more accurate and a better athlete. as he has 19 tds and 3 picks including 209 straight without an interception. He has a better arm, is a better athlete, more accurate, better decision maker etc etc etc.

And based on the criteria you've presented in this thread, he's no more proven that he can stay healthy than AJ Green has. He played 3 games last year and put up all his impressive passing numbers for the year against Northwestern State. He's a talented guy, but I don't see the immense throwing talent you suggest, and he's very far from proven.

Im not dragging down locker to improve mallett. I dont have to do that he speaks for himself. Same with terrel pryor. As stated before he has accuracy issues, but as far arm strength and pure physical ability, and of course as far as winning football games, terrel pryor is superior to jake locker. Hes outperformed jake locker.

Oh please. Pryor isn't close to Locker in terms of throwing the ball. He has good arm strength but his throwing mechanics are horribly inconsistent and he throws way too many ducks. As for winning games, you don't have to look any further than the fact that Pryor plays for Ohio State. That team has won over 85% of their games since 2002 without Pryor even playing a single snap, as compared to Washington having had one winning season during that entire span.

Bottom line is this, theres nothing based on fact regarding jake locker. Its all speculation. Hes proven nothing other than that some former gm whispered in mel kipers ear that he was a superstar. The key word being "former gm".

No, the bottom line is that if you think that Terrelle Pryor projects better to an NFL quarterback than Jake Locker, then it doesn't matter how much you base things on what happens on the field, you obviously aren't seeing the relevant information properly.

I stated why i dont like green. He hasnt produced at the highest level and he has injury issues. Hes "soft" as they say, and hes produced like an average player. I would agree he is talented, but to use a top 5 pick on a player who is oft injured and shows toughness concerns along with middling production, Im not going to go that way. Thats the "detroit lion way". I dont go the "detroit lion way"

So then why rate Julio Jones in the top 15? Green has been way more productive in a similarly successful pass attack. As for "oft injured", Green has missed 3 games in two years. That's 5 less than your 18th rated player Michael Floyd.

Greg romeus has 3 years of production he has above 20 sacks in the last 2 years so it is not opinion not based on fact. I think ive said it previous i dont have issue with the NC guy, someday he may be on my board. But I think his ranking has more to do at this point with his back story than it does with reality.

Greg Romeus has 15.5 sacks in the past two years, which is 2.5 more than Quinn over the same period of time and 4.5 less than Miller. Speaking of Miller, he's another guy who only really had one really strong year, yet he finds himself sitting at #3 while Quinn's name is nowhere to be found.

Nobody blows ben roethlisberger away in anything having to do with playing qb. So lets put that to bed right now, including Ryan mallett throwing the football. There is no throw Ben cant make at the elite level. None zilch nada, none, every throw humanly possible is in the arsenal.

...

Its not a cry for attention. Its a reality based formula. What goes on between the white lines is my primary determining factor. Secondary is triangle numbers etc etc, third is off field transgressions. Mel kiper or scott wright dont determine my board, becuase mel kiper and scott wright have a history of being wrong. So to just blindly follow the herd is going to the slaughter if you ask me. To say what everyone else says is a prescription to be wrong a lot. I dont like to be wrong a lot. It happens surely, but my goal is for it to happen less. If I just follow the herd so to speak, Im going to be wrong far more often than Id like to be.

I'm not begrudging your right to have a differing opinion, but I am begrudging you your right to have an illogical differing opinion. None of the explanations you've given for why certain players don't even profile as 1st round picks to you make any sense when compared to the players you do deem worthy.

bce
06-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Ok. Well in griffins freshman year he had 15 tds and 3 picks including said streak of 209 passes without a completion. Last year before his knee injury he had 4 tds and 0 picks. His frehsman year, true freshamn year, he accounted for 13 rushing tds as well. So 28 tds 3 picks. He has accuracy, as shown by his low interception amount and his 209 consecutive passes without a pick. He has a strong arm as well. So he shows traits of being accurate, making good decisions etc along with top of the line physical ability.

My info says greg romeus had 13 and 8.5 sacks. Anyway, I like the way he beats people on tape. he gets off the line and harries the qb often.

Von miller is pretty much unblockable this past season. He has what you cant teach. Elite speed off the edge. Plus he has a wide array of pass rush moves, spin moves etc. that you rarely see in a college player. He affected the qb more than any player in college did for the year. He also plays stand up olb, which is a position of rarity and high value. Theres no question of whether he can stand up, because thats what he does all the time. When you put all those factors together, he looks like the best of the bunch to me.

Yes I agree terrel pryor has issues with accuracy etc. Thats why hes the 25th best player not the first best player. There have been great qbs with less than stellar mechanics, i dont concern myself so much with it as i concern myself with lack of accuracy. Philp rivers has garbage mechanics. But he has throwing accuracy. Regardless of school, I like winners. I dont believe that you can be a losing qb in college go out there in the nfl and transform into a winner. Whats the relevant information. Terrel pryor has great throwing arm, He has great physical ability, and hes a winner. He lacks accuracy. Jake locker has a mediocre throwing arm, lacks accuracy, has mediocre physical ability, and hes a loser. So i see adavntage pryor in most areas. Physically pryor is superior. Winning pryor is superior. Accuracy and decision making, both could use development.

I like julio jones because ive seen him make a lot of big plays, I like the way he catches the ball, I like him returning punts, I like his body, he has a terrel owens body. Yes he is injury prone, but as you can see by my rankings, I like him less than most people do, and hes a winner. His team wins games that he plays in. Not all him of course, but I like winners, especially ones with talent, but I dont rate them high when they have injury and production concerns. Ive never for a minute believed aj green was a better player. Ill probably drop him down if he doesnt have a better year. But im not going to christen some guy who has aj greens production and injury history and tall skinny body and less than primary position value as a top 5 pick, just as i wouldnt christen julio jones a top 5 pick. For reasons that have nothing really to do with their perceived talent level. I call it calvin johnson syndrome. yeah you can draft calvin johnson with the 2nd pick, and hes a great player, but hes not going to help your team win many games, until such time as you get the more necessary parts. Theres a big difference in money and expectation between the 3rd pick and the 15th pick. You get Julio jones with pick 15 he turns out it could be a great value, if he doesnt, its not good but its not the end. You take aj green 3rd overall, he better pan out superstar, or youre going to be out at least 40 mil guranteed and chances are you passed on a great player at a postion of higher value, and even if he is great, histroy proves that it doesnt mean youre going to win more. Its calvin johnson syndrome. Its like a lose lose, he could be great, and you still lose. Like calvin johnson, great, but they still lose.

I dont recall michael floyd missing any games last year, again its the same thing. I like things that michael floyd does on tape. I like his body, I like the way he catches the ball. But again hes the 18th pick not the 3rd pick. Ok floyd, joens and aj green all have similar injury history. But there are other things about floyd and jones i prefer over green. The argument that player A should be on the board because of some similarity with player B isnt important. What you feel is important to make your argument is that player A and player B have some similarity that defines them totally. i.e julio jones missed as many games as aj green. That may be the case, but that doesnt disqualify Julio jones from the list or make AJ green go on the list, as your argument would suggest thats the way it should be because i said I didnt like aj greens softness and lack of production. As to why i like jones and floyd better, it just comes down to tape

bce
06-07-2010, 09:03 PM
So whats your top 32? I would bet the 38 cents in my pocket it looks almost exactly like anything id find anywhere. History proves though that 50% of the top 10 and 2/3 of rd 1 selections dont meet expectations. So if it looks anything like that, Its probably going to be strewn with mistakes.

TitanHope
06-07-2010, 09:04 PM
Ok. Well in griffins freshman year he had 15 tds and 3 picks including said streak of 209 passes without a completion.

Off to a good start so far...

bearsfan_51
06-07-2010, 09:16 PM
History proves though that 50% of the top 10 and 2/3 of rd 1 selections dont meet expectations. So if it looks anything like that, Its probably going to be strewn with mistakes.
Oh lord.....

Paranoidmoonduck
06-07-2010, 09:17 PM
So whats your top 32? I would bet the 38 cents in my pocket it looks almost exactly like anything id find anywhere. History proves though that 50% of the top 10 and 2/3 of rd 1 selections dont meet expectations. So if it looks anything like that, Its probably going to be strewn with mistakes.

My top 32 doesn't exist because I haven't seen nearly enough from most of these guys to have full opinions of them. There's players I like and dislike, but nothing I could arrange in 32 spots and still feel like it was honest. I'm curious if you feel that you have a history of always picking 32 successes though.

prock
06-07-2010, 11:17 PM
Nobody blows ben roethlisberger away in anything having to do with playing qb. So lets put that to bed right now, including Ryan mallett throwing the football. There is no throw Ben cant make at the elite level. None zilch nada, none, every throw humanly possible is in the arsenal.

Sorry, you are wrong. Mallet has a stronger arm than Big Ben.

Its not a cry for attention. Its a reality based formula. What goes on between the white lines is my primary determining factor. Secondary is triangle numbers etc etc, third is off field transgressions. Mel kiper or scott wright dont determine my board, becuase mel kiper and scott wright have a history of being wrong. So to just blindly follow the herd is going to the slaughter if you ask me. To say what everyone else says is a prescription to be wrong a lot. I dont like to be wrong a lot. It happens surely, but my goal is for it to happen less. If I just follow the herd so to speak, Im going to be wrong far more often than Id like to be.

The bolded statement made me laugh. Scott and Mel will be right much more often than you, because they know football. You reasoning and rationale for most of your arguments are complete fallacy. You determine if a player is going to be a good pro prospect base on how good their team is, you completely make **** up for your "facts". Go look back on some of your comments and try and take yourself seriously.

prock
06-07-2010, 11:19 PM
And while you still made your illegitimate point about why you have Von Miller and Greg Romeus higher than Quinn, and how you think AJ Green "lacks production", you still have yet to provide a competent reason for how these guys aren't in your top 32 prospects.

bce
06-08-2010, 12:50 PM
My top 32 doesn't exist because I haven't seen nearly enough from most of these guys to have full opinions of them. There's players I like and dislike, but nothing I could arrange in 32 spots and still feel like it was honest. I'm curious if you feel that you have a history of always picking 32 successes though.


I think if you read the previous,admittedly, Ive been known to be wrong on occasion, more than id like to be, which is never. But ill settle for being 2/3 right in rd 1. That would make me right 1/3 more of the time than the nfl people or the pundits, with an eye towards improving on that number. In the top 10, id like to hit the right player about 90%, which would be 40% better than the nfl people or the pundits, as they hit on top 10 picks about 50% of the time, and when i say hit i dont mean predict the correct order. I mean those players meet the expectation of being the top 10 players in the class, so id like to hit 90% as opposed to their 50% or less on some occasions.


So if you dont have a board, who are you to determine who the best players are, since you dont have a board how could you know. Its june, and im sure my board will change, probably quite a bit from now until next april. It wouldnt be honest because you probably dont know. You just know what youre told. Nobody holds anybody to a draft board put out in june. Its a preliminary ranking, theres a whole season of tape and other information gathering to do. I dont say jake locker is awful or robert quinn is awful or aj green is awful, theyre just not on my board, for the reasons ive given. There are others I like better. Its no different than mel kipers board, which is based on who his information says are the highest rated players, which will change signifigantly between now and april. The difference being that his will change based on his information as to who will be picked where, and mine will hopefully change based on who will be the best players.

Its not dishonesty or attention need. Its a june board, based on what ive seen, what my information is. If someone else puts out a board, i may dispute portions of it and give information as to why, but just because it doesnt look like my board, im not going to say you dont know what your talking about or you just want to be different becuase theyre not saying what everyone wants to hear based on blesto or nss rankings in june that they disseminate to the pundits.

So post a board. If youre going to tell me my boards wrong, in order to have any credibility at least with me, then you should have your own board, rather than just telling everyone their board is wrong, tell us why your board is right.

bce
06-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Oh lord.....

care to dispute or is that it

tjsunstein
06-08-2010, 12:55 PM
So whats your top 32? I would bet the 38 cents in my pocket it looks almost exactly like anything id find anywhere. History proves though that 50% of the top 10 and 2/3 of rd 1 selections dont meet expectations. So if it looks anything like that, Its probably going to be strewn with mistakes.
So you're some kind of prophet and everyone else is wrong. I get it. No, I don't.

Where are you going to be next April? I hope you're still posting so we can look back on this together.

bce
06-08-2010, 01:08 PM
And while you still made your illegitimate point about why you have Von Miller and Greg Romeus higher than Quinn, and how you think AJ Green "lacks production", you still have yet to provide a competent reason for how these guys aren't in your top 32 prospects.


I have provided it multiple times. Its just not competent because its not what you think.Its illiegitamte because you only know what the early rankings of the pundits say. Von miller and romeus affected the qb more times than any other players ive seen.therefore they are 1 and 2 pass rushers. I did not see robert quinn in 3 games affect the qb as much as they did, or as much as ohters did. Maybe in 3 other games he was a manimal, and maybe hell show me that hes great at some point, didnt see it though. Aj green had 800 yds receiving averaged 14 ypc and i think 6 tds. Thats not top 5 pick warranted production from a wr. I dont pick any wrs in the top generally "calvin johnson syndrome" but if i did have a player that highly rated, they better show it all, all the traits, all the production etc etc. A wr picked that high is not allowed to have holes, just like a db picked that high is not allowed to have holes, which is why i dont advocate picking that high, because aj green has holes. Pass rushers with holes are ok. Qbs with holes are ok

So again i challenge you to put a board like the other guy, not just say youre wrong based on the june information, based on what somebody has told you is the true order of things. Because thats what youre saying is based on, what somebody told you.

bce
06-08-2010, 01:12 PM
Sorry, you are wrong. Mallet has a stronger arm than Big Ben.



The bolded statement made me laugh. Scott and Mel will be right much more often than you, because they know football. You reasoning and rationale for most of your arguments are complete fallacy. You determine if a player is going to be a good pro prospect base on how good their team is, you completely make **** up for your "facts". Go look back on some of your comments and try and take yourself seriously.

maybe slightly mallett has a better arm, but not so much that ben cant make every throw in the arsenal, which is all thats required.

I guess robert griffin has a great team, thats why hes #2 overall.

Scott and mel are more right in predicting draft order than I am. Thats all. But as far as the correctness of that order, im far ahead of their game.

bce
06-08-2010, 01:20 PM
So you're some kind of prophet and everyone else is wrong. I get it. No, I don't.

Where are you going to be next April? I hope you're still posting so we can look back on this together.


No, I just base my rankings on things other than the blesto or nss rankings that they dissemniate to the public in june. You do know that this is how these rankings are compiled, blesto and nss disseminates a list to the pundits.Thats how they base it. It doesnt make me a prophet or right all the time, It just means i go from my own information, not blesto or nss reports. These preliminary rankings that you see in the media are based solely on those reports, before a game is ever played, before all the facts and information are presented, and will surely change. So to say Robert quinn is the best player right now is based on information disseminated long before the process is completed. Its a preliminary ranking, thats all these reports are.

bearsfan_51
06-08-2010, 01:53 PM
care to dispute or is that it
You are an arrogant moron.

bce
06-08-2010, 02:14 PM
didnt think so

tjsunstein
06-08-2010, 02:34 PM
What makes you think Isiaih Pead will be better than Ryan Williams?

bce
06-08-2010, 02:54 PM
What are they like 11 and 12? I like both. I dont have that much preference one over another. Williams had more production, but he also had more opportunity. Peads a bit faster, williams is a bit bigger. I like mark ingram the best, the rest are interchangeable pretty much, depending on what type of back you prefer.

tjsunstein
06-08-2010, 03:04 PM
Jerrod Johnson in the top 32 and Locker isn't. What has Johnson shown you that Locker has failed to?

prock
06-08-2010, 04:09 PM
maybe slightly mallett has a better arm, but not so much that ben cant make every throw in the arsenal, which is all thats required.

I guess robert griffin has a great team, thats why hes #2 overall.

Scott and mel are more right in predicting draft order than I am. Thats all. But as far as the correctness of that order, im far ahead of their game.

Oh so you are better than the professionals? Why are you on this site? Go start your own! You are the best, you are right! Scott and Mel can't hold your jock strap. I would definitely pay to read your site, you have shown that your knowledge about football is far better than professionals.

prock
06-08-2010, 04:11 PM
No, I just base my rankings on things other than the blesto or nss rankings that they dissemniate to the public in june. You do know that this is how these rankings are compiled, blesto and nss disseminates a list to the pundits.Thats how they base it. It doesnt make me a prophet or right all the time, It just means i go from my own information, not blesto or nss reports. These preliminary rankings that you see in the media are based solely on those reports, before a game is ever played, before all the facts and information are presented, and will surely change. So to say Robert quinn is the best player right now is based on information disseminated long before the process is completed. Its a preliminary ranking, thats all these reports are.

Which is exactly what your ranking is? Only the media's is a little more competent, and isn't 100% fallacy.

bce
06-08-2010, 04:15 PM
He has a nfl level arm. He plays in the west coast offense. Superior scheduling, texas, ok, every year etc. 60% completion percentage, 3600 yds, 30 tds only 8 picks, against a better schedule, went to bowl game, against a better schedule. Bigger arm, bigger body, pretty athletic and elusive, not a finished product by any means but he shows traits. Thats why hes #23 not #1. Physically, he could be in the top 3. Physically, hes right up there with mallett. Hes shown to be productive and accurate and not prone to mistakes and shows ability to make big plays. Its not a question of what hasnt he done that jake locker, its what he does more than jake locker, which is produce and win, and what he does less than jake locker, which is make mistakes and lose games.

prock
06-08-2010, 04:17 PM
I have provided it multiple times. Its just not competent because its not what you think.Its illiegitamte because you only know what the early rankings of the pundits say. Von miller and romeus affected the qb more times than any other players ive seen.therefore they are 1 and 2 pass rushers. I did not see robert quinn in 3 games affect the qb as much as they did, or as much as ohters did. Maybe in 3 other games he was a manimal, and maybe hell show me that hes great at some point, didnt see it though. Aj green had 800 yds receiving averaged 14 ypc and i think 6 tds. Thats not top 5 pick warranted production from a wr. I dont pick any wrs in the top generally "calvin johnson syndrome" but if i did have a player that highly rated, they better show it all, all the traits, all the production etc etc. A wr picked that high is not allowed to have holes, just like a db picked that high is not allowed to have holes, which is why i dont advocate picking that high, because aj green has holes. Pass rushers with holes are ok. Qbs with holes are ok

So again i challenge you to put a board like the other guy, not just say youre wrong based on the june information, based on what somebody has told you is the true order of things. Because thats what youre saying is based on, what somebody told you.

Where is njx when you need him? I haven't seen enough of most of the guys to put together my own board, but I will once the season has started. But I guarantee you it would be 100% better than yours. For starters, it would have the 3 of the 5 best prospects in the top 32.

bce
06-08-2010, 04:22 PM
Which is exactly what your ranking is? Only the media's is a little more competent, and isn't 100% fallacy.



Go back through the drafts of the last 5 years and tell me how "accurate" they are.

They are in the business of predicting draft order. They are not in the business of predicting success. Thats why they go off the Blesto rankings, thats why every one of their boards look the same, give or take a few spots.

Problem is when it all plays out, the draft order isnt the correct order. So what i do is try to get the correct order with regards to success in the nfl, not the correct order as to where players will be drafted. There is creedence to what they get, but you have to remember theyre getting it from somewhere. If the top 32 players selected in every draft where the correct top 32 players selected, then id tend to agree with what they say. I dont buck history. But history says theyre wrong 2/3 of the time, the nfl people i mean. They get their information, base their rankings on what the nfl people tell them, at this point represented by the blesto and nss rankings. Thats why every board everywhere you looks the same except for jumbling the same players into different spots in the same general area. Youve been on here a while, please dont tell me you dont know how this all works.

prock
06-08-2010, 04:33 PM
Go back through the drafts of the last 5 years and tell me how "accurate" they are.

They are in the business of predicting draft order. They are not in the business of predicting success. Thats why they go off the Blesto rankings, thats why every one of their boards look the same, give or take a few spots.

And people go in the order they do based on how teams think they will do in the NFL. The two are the same ****. Your reasoning is completely wrong. Keep posting your big boards and mock drafts on this site and let's see how right you are at the end.

Problem is when it all plays out, the draft order isnt the correct order. So what i do is try to get the correct order with regards to success in the nfl, not the correct order as to where players will be drafted. There is creedence to what they get, but you have to remember theyre getting it from somewhere. If the top 32 players selected in every draft where the correct top 32 players selected, then id tend to agree with what they say. I dont buck history. But history says theyre wrong 2/3 of the time, the nfl people i mean. They get their information, base their rankings on what the nfl people tell them, at this point represented by the blesto and nss rankings. Thats why every board everywhere you looks the same except for jumbling the same players into different spots in the same general area. Youve been on here a while, please dont tell me you dont know how this all works.

Oh you are right, oh draft Jesus. Your projections are 100% correct, and Scott Wright and Mel Kiper suck at their jobs. You are the true draft Messiah. I have dreamed of the day that you would come again to judge the boom and the bust.

You are an arrogant, stubborn, moron.

bce
06-08-2010, 04:45 PM
Where is njx when you need him? I haven't seen enough of most of the guys to put together my own board, but I will once the season has started. But I guarantee you it would be 100% better than yours. For starters, it would have the 3 of the 5 best prospects in the top 32.


Bring him on im ready with bells and whistles

bce
06-08-2010, 04:48 PM
And people go in the order they do based on how teams think they will do in the NFL. The two are the same ****. Your reasoning is completely wrong. Keep posting your big boards and mock drafts on this site and let's see how right you are at the end.



Oh you are right, oh draft Jesus. Your projections are 100% correct, and Scott Wright and Mel Kiper suck at their jobs. You are the true draft Messiah. I have dreamed of the day that you would come again to judge the boom and the bust.

You are an arrogant, stubborn, moron.

No im not 100% correct, I want to be, but alas im not. But what i do and what they do isnt the same thing. They are in the business of predicting draft order, and they do it very well, because they get information as to the draft order. Problem is the draft order isnt the success order. So to answer you, they do their job very well, but what theyre doing doesnt interest me, its not what im interested in doing.

yourfavestoner
06-08-2010, 04:50 PM
No im not 100% correct, I want to be, but alas im not. But what i do and what they do isnt the same thing. They are in the business of predicting draft order, and they do it very well, because they get information as to the draft order. Problem is the draft order isnt the success order. So to answer you, they do their job very well, but what theyre doing doesnt interest me, its not what im interested in doing.

You do realize that these people do rankings as well as mock drafts don't you? Especially since nobody even knows what the draft order is going to be until January.

prock
06-08-2010, 04:56 PM
No im not 100% correct, I want to be, but alas im not. But what i do and what they do isnt the same thing. They are in the business of predicting draft order, and they do it very well, because they get information as to the draft order. Problem is the draft order isnt the success order. So to answer you, they do their job very well, but what theyre doing doesnt interest me, its not what im interested in doing.

They do rankings, they do mock drafts to predict what teams will do, and teams take players based on how well they think they will do in the league. It is all connected.

bce
06-08-2010, 06:23 PM
Exactly, so they base their rankings on what teams will do, problem is a great majority of the time, teams do the wrong thing, so thier rankings are wrong. You may predict the entire first rd, but if you do, chances are youll be wrong about the success level of those players about 2/3 of the time. Youre not going to be a better predictor of draft order than mel kiper or mike mayock or scott wright. They have the inside information, thats what they do.

prock
06-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Exactly, so they base their rankings on what teams will do, problem is a great majority of the time, teams do the wrong thing, so thier rankings are wrong. You may predict the entire first rd, but if you do, chances are youll be wrong about the success level of those players about 2/3 of the time. Youre not going to be a better predictor of draft order than mel kiper or mike mayock or scott wright. They have the inside information, thats what they do.

So you are saying that you know more than the personnel directors and scouts of NFL teams. Nice.

bce
06-08-2010, 06:56 PM
Thats the goal, or at least be better than most of them. There are those out there in the nfl that actaully know what theyre doing, I dont have pretense to believe that i am better than them, but front offices that make mistakes, I certainly aim to not endorse the mistakes they make.

tjsunstein
06-08-2010, 06:56 PM
I don't think he has a real point.

prock
06-08-2010, 06:59 PM
I don't think he has a real point.

Yeah, he must be a troll.

RealityCheck
06-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Thats the goal, or at least be better than most of them.
No.

As a draft enthusiast, my goal is not to be better than Mel Kiper, Todd McShay, Mike Mayock or Scott Wright.

My goal is to have fun while discussing the future players of my favorite sport with my fellow fans.

Not guys like you who have no clue of what they're talking about by saying Robert Quinn has production issues and is inferior to Jabaal Sheard and Pierre Allen.

bce
06-08-2010, 07:33 PM
Im having fun. All i said was in the three games i saw of robert quinn jabaal sheard played better than what i saw from robert quinn. maybe you saw other games that robert quinn tore up the world. But im not going to say robert quinn is better because you said so, until i see it, im not going to say it.

My goal can be different from yours thats fine. No issue with that here. You can say i dont know what im talking about thats fine, but youre just repeating what mel kiper says. So really, what is it you know other than what youve heard from somebody else.

RealityCheck
06-08-2010, 07:40 PM
Im having fun. All i said was in the three games i saw of robert quinn jabaal sheard played better than what i saw from robert quinn. maybe you saw other games that robert quinn tore up the world. But im not going to say robert quinn is better because you said so, until i see it, im not going to say it.

Fine then, you only saw 3 games from Quinn.
But yeah, just because you only saw him in 3 games it doesn't mean that he's not a first round talent and that Sheard is better than him.

But... if you saw Quinn against Virginia and BC, then you're an hypocrite. He was just out of this world on those games.

bce
06-08-2010, 07:57 PM
Maybe those were his set the world on fire games. Maybe ill see him do it. 3 games is a good sample. I plan on watching him intently this year to see if the hype is true.

tjsunstein
06-08-2010, 10:33 PM
Maybe those were his set the world on fire games. Maybe ill see him do it. 3 games is a good sample. I plan on watching him intently this year to see if the hype is true.
Can I suggest you to watch the game tape of those games and re evaluate your opinion?

bce
06-08-2010, 11:07 PM
Im sure ill be seeing plenty of robert quinn this year. but 3 games is a pretty good sample, preferably going head to head with an nfl prospect. Ill usually watch those games. If there were three games where you didnt perform that well, thats a third of the season against the top level competition.

Paranoidmoonduck
06-08-2010, 11:15 PM
but 3 games is a pretty good sample, preferably going head to head with an nfl prospect.

Then which games did you watch, because tjsunstein is suggesting you watch the game where Quinn matched up against Anthony Castonzo.

bce
06-08-2010, 11:37 PM
He showed me the youtube video with the highlights. Not #1 overall pick material. He does not have elite pass rush ability, and from what hes said this was a 'best of robert quinn" video. half the plays in the "highlight" video, hes not even affecting the qb. Im still going to watch, but i need to see way more from him even to get him on the board. He doesnt stand up, i question whether he has the speed or looseness off the snap to stand up, he doesnt switch sides, and i question whether he has the speed off the ball or once rushing to be a dwight freeny type 4-3 end. He looks slow off the line, theres not a lot of olbs with his body type and theres not a lot of de's with his body type either. Theres no way id pick this guy in the first round at this point.

tjsunstein
06-08-2010, 11:56 PM
No where did I say that was the best of Robert Quinn. Please quote me.

bce
06-09-2010, 12:17 AM
I wont quote you, i was just assuming since it was a highlight reel of robert quinn from youtube