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JFLO
06-15-2010, 08:06 PM
Alright, I thought it would be a cool idea to do something of this nature. Basically, these are my initial Top 10 storylines of the 2011 NFL Draft Class. I think some of them are a little generic, but it was fun to write up nonetheless.

10. Small Stuff
It should be known to every person that follows football that there is definitely not a certain size set in stone to make or break the career of a future tailback in the NFL. There are players from the size of Darren Sproles at a whopping 5’6” or a player like Brandon Jacobs who stands tall at a massive 6’4”.

In the draft class of 2011, it seems that there are a massive amount of tailbacks to choose from that are 5’10” or shorter. The top two backs in the class, Mark Ingram of Alabama and Ryan Williams of West Virginia, are both (maybe generously) listed at 5’10” while other backs like Noel Devine of West Virginia, Jacquizz Rodgers of Oregon State and Kendall Hunter of Oklahoma State are three running backs that have the potential to be solid contributors at the next level that are listed at 5’8” or shorter.

Don’t forget about guys like Florida speedster Jeff Demps, Kentucky’s Derrick Locke and Louisville sleeper Victor Todman who have to develop more but also have shots at being solid pro players down the road. All three of those players are listed at 5’9” or shorter.

In 2010, Jahvid Best was the only running back that was 5’10” or shorter to be drafted within the first couple of rounds while in 2009, Donald Brown was the only back 5’10” or shorter to be drafted within the first three rounds. This year seems to be different and in my opinion it is due to the fact that the spread offense is becoming such a vital piece of college football today. The spread uses more faster backs that tend to be on the shorter side. This could be a trend that we will see later on down the road in future drafts.

9. Small School Prospects
Every year there are a couple small school prospects that seem to stick out above the rest and have enough talent to be chosen within the first three rounds of the draft. This year however, I feel like there are more prospects that play at smaller schools or FCS schools that will be chosen early on in April.

In my mind, the biggest small school prospect is Jeremy Kellem, a speedy defensive back from Middle Tennessee State University. The Blue Raider is an excellent athlete who does nothing but produce in very versatile ways. He has over 60 tackles, 3 sacks, 3 interceptions and 2 forced fumbles. He is a little undersized at 5’10” 190, but he has legitimate 4.4 speed.

My second highest ranked small school prospect is Villanova offensive lineman Ben Ijalana. He won’t be able to play tackle at the next level like he does for the Wildcats, but he has a lot of potential as an interior lineman in the NFL. He possesses light feet and good athleticism to be at least a 2nd-3rd round choice in the draft. If he can stay healthy and Villanova can build off their 1st national championship in the team’s FCS history, then he is a shoe in as an early round draft choice.

Coming in third is another defensive back and that would be Appalachian State safety Mark Legree. The Mountaineer has excellent overall athleticism and is a great and instinctive ballhawk. He finished the season with 70 tackles, 7 interceptions and 6 tackles for a loss. LeGree has been one of the more publicized small school prospects for this draft and he has the ability and production to back it up.

Other small school prospects to watch out for include: Grambling State Defensive End Christian Anthony, Richmond Defensive Tackle Martin Parker, Troy Linebacker Mario Addison, San Diego State Tight End Alston Umuolo and Mount Union Wide Receiver Cecil Shorts.

8. Parody in Positions
No matter what kind of talent is being offered in the draft, there is always an amount of parody and it is no different this season. In fact, it seems that the parody in some positions is even deeper than usual.

The deepest positions in this year’s class are extremely deep and top heavy. The position with the most depth in this year’s class has to be defensive end. Of course there are some players that could be listed as both a defensive end and defensive tackle, but they are capable of playing both positions in certain schemes. At end, there seems to be at least 10-15 players that could be chosen in the early rounds of the process, led of course by UNC pass rusher Robert Quinn.

The second deepest position in my eyes would have to be cornerback, led by a legitimate Top 5 player in Louisiana State’s Patrick Peterson. The position is bound to be loaded up with tons of underclassmen like Miami (FL)’s Brandon Harris and Georgia’s Brandon Boykin, both of whom are developing 1st round talents.

One underrated positions that seems to have some depth is among the interior of the offensive line. It’s not every year that the position is stacked but it seems to be different in 2011. Led by players such as Mike Pouncey of Florida, Kris O’Dowd of Southern California and Justin Boren of The Ohio State University.

When it comes to the lack of talent, there are two definite positions that don’t the plethora of talent to choose from. The one that stands out the most is inside linebacker. There seems to be a debate as to who is the top dog of the group, but no matter who you choose, there isn’t a lot of depth at the position overall and it’s top tier is mostly made of potential rather than polish. Greg Jones has polish but his size may limit his role at the NFL while Dont’a Hightower is mostly hype at the moment.

The second position that is lacking talent seems to be at offensive tackle. It may be due to the large amount of talent that the position has produced in the last two draft classes, but 2011 is definitely different than 2009 and 2010 respectively. The leader of the group seems to be Boston College’s Anthony Castonzo who has elite experience and technical skills. He seems to be the only true prospect with definite potential at left tackle. Both Gabe Carimi of Wisconsin and Matt Reynolds of Brigham Young seem to some questions to answer before they have a future at left tackle rather than the right side.

7. The Perception of Marvin Austin
There may not be a more initially debated player in the class of 2011 than North Carolina defensive lineman Marvin Austin. He was one of the most highly touted players, no matter what position, in the recruiting class of 2008 and shocked a lot of people when he decided to enroll at Chapel Hill.

However, Austin hasn’t necessarily lived up to the hype that he was given in high school and has been somewhat inconsistent during his first three years in college. His totals have been up and down since stepping foot on campus and has been receiving a lot of flak for his less than stellar play.

There is no one though that can deny his natural talent and abilities at the line of scrimmage. He has unreal quickness and footwork and has put up decent numbers in all three seasons. When Austin is on his game, there is no denying that he could be one of the best, if not the best player in the nation.

Some people have Austin ranked in the Top 10 and as the #1 overall senior in the class of 2011 while others have decided to completely drop Austin off their big boards due to his inconsistent play and inability to capture the hype that he brought with him to North Carolina.

6. Tar Heel Madness
Austin is only one of many pieces of a North Carolina team that seems to be offering a lot of potential talent at the next level. Generally, most draftniks are used to seeing teams like Southern California, Oklahoma and Miami (FL) at the cream of the crop in terms of shipping off top notch talent to the NFL. Its different this year though as Chapel Hill has as many as nine potential choices in the drafts first three rounds.

Most of the talent is on the defensive side of the ball and it is led by the best pass rusher to come around since Mario Williams in 2006. Weakside end Robert Quinn has immense potential as a stud pass rusher in the NFL and has Top 5 pick written all over him. He possesses extreme athleticism and agility for a kid that is still only 19 years of age. Quinn plays alongside Austin who was mentioned earlier.

Behind the two linemen are three linebackers that could be drafted fairly early in April. Bruce Carter is a great overall athlete who has abilities in zone coverage and has proven to be a very productive player. Alongside him is Quan Sturdivant, who is seemingly solid in almost every aspect of his game. Then there is junior two-sport star Zach Brown. Brown has legitimate 4.4 speed at the linebacker position and if he declares early, he’ll attract some teams with his top notch athleticism.

In the secondary, there are three players who will most likely be playing on Sundays. The player who should get drafted the earliest is safety Deunta Williams. Williams hasn’t received enough attention so far but is a stud playmaker who is a team leader and reliable tackler. Also, cornerbacks Kendric Burney and Charles Brown are players to keep eyes on throughout the season.

On the offensive side of the ball, one of the more underrated prospects will be catching balls for the Tar Heels. Greg Little is a massive target who has developed very well and is nothing but a wrecking ball after the catch. If he can continue to build off his stellar junior season and continually develop his maturity, Little will be a definite pick within in the first three rounds of the draft.

Overall, the team is stacked with talent and has the potential to eventually be ACC Champions and contend for a BCS title bid. The team will need to revamp for the 2011 season though because they are most likely going to lose a ton of talent after this season.

5. The Saga That is Terrelle Pryor
The 2008 recruiting class was one of the deepest in recent memory and it was led by none other than the subject of my #5 initial storyline of the 2011 NFL Draft, Terrelle Pryor.

Pryor is an immense athlete that has the potential to be an elite player at the collegiate level but has struggled to put it all together as of the end of his sophomore season. His elite size and athleticism allows him to possibly be a first round pick but he has a lot more developing to finish before that happens.

However, that will not stop a team from taking a risk in the 1st round. Especially considering the amount of hype Pryor will get if the Buckeyes have a successful season in 2010. The Buckeyes are bound for a big time season and possibly a bid in the National Championship game and if they can fulfill these goals, Pryor’s stock will presumably soar sky high.

He will take a lot of time to develop, there is no doubt about that, but I think it’s safe to say that Pryor has more potential than Vince Young as a dual-threat quarterback in the NFL. He has great arm strength, mobility and is a developing leader and passer. If the Buckeyes have a good season, I think it would be safe to say that Pryor is shipping out of Columbus in 2010 and a team would be willing to spend a 1st round pick on his elite potential.

4. Year of the Redshirt Sophomore
It wasn’t that common for redshirt sophomores to declare for a draft until recently. In 2009, there were two redshirt sophomores taken in Michael Crabtree and Aaron Maybin. Earl Thomas was the only redshirt sophomore taken in 2010 when he was chosen 14th overall by the Seattle Seahawks. This year however, there could be as many as five redshirt sophomores declaring for the 2011 festivities.

The most obvious is Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck. Most believe that Luck is unlikely to declare even if he has a tremendous season for the Cardinal, but it’s never out of the realm of possibility because this could be the last season that NFL rookies won’t be under a rookie pay scale and if Luck has a big season and is a serious contender for the #1 pick, then why would he decline the massive amount of money that would be coming his way.

Behind Luck as the most touted redshirt sophomore is Virginia Tech tailback Ryan Williams. The Hokie had an elite breakout season after Darren Evans went down in the first game of the year in 2009. Williams has a tremendous all-around game for his age and has received some early comparisons of Deangelo Williams. Of all the red-shirt sophomores, Williams is the most likely to declare early.

On the defensive side of the ball, there are two defensive linemen and a safety that have the possibility to declare early and get chosen early due to their immense play. Both Aldon Smith of Missouri and Nick Perry of Southern California has tremendous freshman seasons. Both led their respective teams in sacks (Smith with 11.5 and Perry with 8) and should continue their stellar collegiate careers in 2010. Of the two, Smith has the most likely chance of declaring while none should doubt the possibility of Perry declaring either, especially considering the recent sanctions caste down on USC. In the defensive backfield, Clemson safety Rashard Hall is a standout player who some have predicted in the 1st round already. He’ll need an Earl Thomas like sophomore campaign to be drafted that high though.

Don’t’ be surprised to see all five of these players declare because all of them have the ability and talent to do so and teams are looking for budding talent, no matter what class they are coming from.

3. Attempted Comeback of Mark Herzlich
Before the start of the 2009 season, most people had projected Boston College linebacker Mark Herzlich as a potential Top 20 choice in the 2010 draft. He had massive size, production and instincts to be a force at the next level. However, tragedy struck when Herzlich was diagnosed with a very rare form of bone cancer called Ewings Sarcoma. He automatically decided to not play football during the 2009 season to begin his chemotherapy and fully recover from the cancer.

Late in the Eagles 2009 season, Herzlich spread the good news when he announced that he was completely cancer free and was planning on returning to the team after taking a medical redshirt for for the season he was absent for. It’s going to take a lot of work for him to return to the 1st round status he once claimed, but he will surely get all the support from his teammates and most likely every draftnik around.

When it comes to grading Herzlich, it has to be nothing other than a “Wait and See” plan due to the amount of time he missed from the game. However, I, as everyone else, will be rooting for him to return to the big time grade he once received.

2. The Fantastic Four
The most top heavy position in the 2011 class should come as to no surprise to anyone who follows the selection process. The 2008 recruiting class gave lots of hope to draftniks because it was loaded with talent at wide receiver. Fortunately, it has followed through and there are four receivers that seem to be headed towards a first round selection. Some people even perceive all four of these receivers could be Top 20 picks when it’s all said and done.

The cream of the crop is none other than Georgia playmaker A.J. Green. He possesses a tremendous combination of size, speed, intangibles and ability to be an elite #1 target at the next level. In many eyes, he is the best receiver since Calvin Johnson was selected by Detroit in the 2007 process. He has put up great numbers with two different quarterbacks and could eventually be the #1 pick in April.

After Green, it seems that there is some debate as to who is the better receiver. However, receiving the most attention among the remaining three is Julio Jones of Alabama. Jones came on severely strong as a freshman but saw his numbers decline as a sophomore. He has elite physical tools and is a true force after the catch but must prove to be more consistent and polished during his junior campaign. If he can do that, then he could very well be chosen before his SEC counterpart in Green.

Thirdly, let’s take a look at a player that doesn’t get enough attention. That would be the massive target that is Jonathan Baldwin from Pittsburgh. The Panther came on strong as a freshman and continued the production during his sophomore season. He stretches the field very well, has massive hands and may use his body better than any receiver in college football. If Baldwin can put together another big season in the Steel City, then he should finally get the attention that he deserves.

Finally, rounding out the Fantastic Four is Notre Dame’s very own Michael Floyd. Like the other three, Floyd had a superior freshman season and was part of one of college football’s best offenses. He has great body control, quickness and is a true vertical threat. However, one has to wonder if he will be able to hold up at the next level. Floyd has missed a total of eight games in two years due to injuries and will need to stay healthy in order to be drafted in the first round next year.

From a scouting standpoint, there may not be a better year at wide receiver than 2011. It isn’t common for teams to take a wide receiver in the Top 20, but with these four prospects things could very well change.

1. The Race Between Jake Locker, Ryan Mallett and Andrew Luck
This may not be just the race to see who the best quarterback is in the class of 2011, but it could very well be the race to see who the #1 Overall pick is in April. In the past thirteen drafts, ten have started with a quarterback being chosen #1 overall. If history stays consistent, then one of these three will be the first to shake Roger Goodell’s hand. I can’t remember a draft season where there has been so much attention given to three quarterbacks in the initial processes.

The most attention so far has been given to an unlikely character in Redshirt sophomore Andrew Luck. He may not be the most talented of the three, but the Stanford signal caller has been receiving comparisons of John Elway for his stellar play at such a young age. There is absolutely no certainty that Luck will even declare, but if he puts up good numbers and a winning season in Palo Alto, then no one should be surprised if he forgoes his last two years.

Playing in the same conference as Luck is Washington Huskie quarterback Jake Locker. He has been mentioned by many people early on as the consensus #1 overall pick and #1 overall choice in 2011. Locker has developed tremendously since being coached by offensive guru Steve Sarkisan and looks to further his abilities more during his senior season.

Finishing out the trio is Arkansas’ very own Ryan Mallett. The former Michigan Wolverine transfer has all the elite physical tools that scouts look for in a franchise caliber quarterback and has put up stellar numbers in a strong conference, but seems to have too many lapses and needs to have a season where he can put it all together mentally. If he can do that, then there is no doubt in my mind that he will be the #1 quarterback in this class.

There is no doubt in any draftnik’s mind that this will be an exciting race to watch throughout the season and whoever puts up the best numbers or leads their team to essential victories, that player will most likely be the first quarterback or even first player chosen. It seems that the 2011 class could have as many as ten teams looking for quarterbacks when it’s all said and done and there is no doubt that it will be a crazy ride.

All feedback is wanted and thanks for reading...

CashmoneyDrew
06-15-2010, 08:16 PM
Nice write-up, but there were more than two redshirt sophomores taken in the 2009 draft. Knowshon Moreno being a more prominent one.

superman8456
06-15-2010, 08:24 PM
I would add Brandon Maye to the redshift sophomore list to watch. He is an ILB for Clemson.

Pretty good write up overall.

I believe the ILB class has numerous players that have the size and physical attributes to be elite players, they just need to figure out how to put it all together on the field.

JFLO
06-15-2010, 08:31 PM
Isn't Maye a straight up junior?

bored of education
06-15-2010, 08:33 PM
I will be going to 3 home games at BC, Herzlich to me is the story of the year

JFLO
06-15-2010, 08:38 PM
Yea, Clemson has Brandon Maye listed as a Redshirt Sophomore as of the 2009 season, so in 2010 he'll be a Redshirt Junior

bce
06-15-2010, 09:04 PM
Im not sure what your angle is with this. If it doesnt really matter what height rbs are, then im not sure what the storyline is.

I think the position at this point with the lower talent is defensive end, if by defensive end you mean pass rushers, as compared to last years epic class of pass rushers.

Corner is also a weak position, probably even compared to this years relatively mediocre class. Corner is not a strong position unless theres a deion sanders type in the class and quality depth. Theres neither at this point.


I dont see lack of talent at inside linebacker. It will be a stronger class than this past year.

Tackle i agree at this point its not a strong group.

Marvin austin is a 4-3 under tackle. You can get them at the grocery store.

If theres nine tar heels drafted in the first 3 rounds you can bet on at least 75% being busts. Theres no college team with that much nfl talent. Youd be lucky to find an nfl defense with 9 players worthy of rd 1-3 picks. Two great nfl players from one college team is about the max in a class. And thats a great year.

I like pryor more than most. I know he has nfl level physical ability, and i know hes a winner. Question is can he put the ball on the spot and show good decision making.

Thats not really any more rs sophomores than usual

Actually the 2008 class was the year of the running back. Chris johnson, stewart, mendenahll, rice, forte etc., I cant even remember any wrs drafted in that class. feel free to enlighten me though. 2011 is deepest at rb, with the best prospect since 2008 mark ingram on top.

Im seeing a lot of bust potential in AJ green especially.Everything about this guy is screaming out like a trumpet in my ear BUST. Julio jones flashes inconsistent potential greatness. Michael floyds never been the #1 and played in a pass happy offense, and yet still put up middling numbers.

Baldwins the top. Uncoverable one on one, circus catches and huge plays every week. He had only one game the entire year that he did not have a play under 40 yds. Averaged 20 per catch. Plus hes from aliquippa and derrele revis says aliquippa dont miss. Maybe a step slower than clavin johnson, but makes just as many outstanding catches and huge plays, and hes a whole hell of a lot tougher. Its going to be interesting to see what he runs. Theres unsubstantiated rumors of 4.3s, and it sure looks like it on the field.

Andrew luck and jake locker are frauds. Mallets probably the most physically gifted prosepct ever at the position, from a pure physical standpoint.

bce
06-15-2010, 09:10 PM
i apologize 2008 recruiting class for wrs, i mistook that for 2008 draft class for wrs. It seems to me quite a bit of your storylines have to do with high school hype

bce
06-15-2010, 09:10 PM
terrel pryor, aj green, julio jones marvin austin etc.

JFLO
06-15-2010, 10:15 PM
Im not sure what your angle is with this. If it doesnt really matter what height rbs are, then im not sure what the storyline is.

I clearly stated that there is in no certain way a certain height attained to a franchise caliber running back, so you obviously didn't read that one, thanks bud.

I think the position at this point with the lower talent is defensive end, if by defensive end you mean pass rushers, as compared to last years epic class of pass rushers.

Corner is also a weak position, probably even compared to this years relatively mediocre class. Corner is not a strong position unless theres a deion sanders type in the class and quality depth. Theres neither at this point.

Patrick Peterson, Aaron Williams and Prince Amukamara beg to differ


I dont see lack of talent at inside linebacker. It will be a stronger class than this past year.

Tackle i agree at this point its not a strong group.

Marvin austin is a 4-3 under tackle. You can get them at the grocery store.

Actually you can't buy defensive tackles at the grocery store...at least the grocery store that I go to...also, I in no way said that Austin's position had any importance to the argument, nor was I really making any sort of argument to begin with.

If theres nine tar heels drafted in the first 3 rounds you can bet on at least 75% being busts. Theres no college team with that much nfl talent. Youd be lucky to find an nfl defense with 9 players worthy of rd 1-3 picks. Two great nfl players from one college team is about the max in a class. And thats a great year.

I like pryor more than most. I know he has nfl level physical ability, and i know hes a winner. Question is can he put the ball on the spot and show good decision making.

Thats not really any more rs sophomores than usual
Well, let's see...2010 only had 1...2011 has the potential for at least 5...so I think that's at least 5x more...

Actually the 2008 class was the year of the running back. Chris johnson, stewart, mendenahll, rice, forte etc., I cant even remember any wrs drafted in that class. feel free to enlighten me though. 2011 is deepest at rb, with the best prospect since 2008 mark ingram on top.

you obviously know why your already wrong here...

Im seeing a lot of bust potential in AJ green especially.Everything about this guy is screaming out like a trumpet in my ear BUST. Julio jones flashes inconsistent potential greatness. Michael floyds never been the #1 and played in a pass happy offense, and yet still put up middling numbers.

Baldwins the top. Uncoverable one on one, circus catches and huge plays every week. He had only one game the entire year that he did not have a play under 40 yds. Averaged 20 per catch. Plus hes from aliquippa and derrele revis says aliquippa dont miss. Maybe a step slower than clavin johnson, but makes just as many outstanding catches and huge plays, and hes a whole hell of a lot tougher. Its going to be interesting to see what he runs. Theres unsubstantiated rumors of 4.3s, and it sure looks like it on the field.

Andrew luck and jake locker are frauds. Mallets probably the most physically gifted prosepct ever at the position, from a pure physical standpoint.

You're an idiot.

Cigaro
06-15-2010, 10:24 PM
Ryan Williams of Virginia Tech...

JFLO
06-15-2010, 10:27 PM
Ryan Williams of Virginia Tech...

Hey man, thanks for catching that...

Yea, I only said Virginia Tech in the Redshirt Sophomore section, so I don't know what I'm talking about, so you can point out a typo...thank you.

bce
06-15-2010, 10:39 PM
Well patrick peterson and aaron williams and prince anakamura arent deion sanders. Theyre not even leodis mckelvin.

Sure you can buy 4-3 under tackles, you can buy them in rd 5 or on the ufa market, aka, the grocery store.

On the wrs, the qbs i know im right. Becuase everything I stated was based on fact, not on opinion, or hype coming out of high school, or feed from mel kiper. Which is where youre getting it from.

JFLO
06-15-2010, 10:48 PM
I've already learned after your first post to not take anything you say at all seriously...if I remember correctly you had players like john clay and Terrelle Pryor in your top ten players...also its not grading the players based on what mel kiper says...its grading players by actually watching the games which is something you should try before you try to look smart about something

dannyz
06-15-2010, 10:57 PM
Yeah There should be a lot of RS Soph declaring early. Jeremy Maclin was also one of the RS Soph to leave early in 2009.

TheSlinger
06-15-2010, 11:07 PM
It's PARITY, unless you believe that the positions are a a humorous or satirical imitation of a serious piece of literature or writing.

bce
06-15-2010, 11:16 PM
maybe you should take it seriously. I believe terrel pryor was in the 20's. John clay was as productive as any back in college football last year not named ingram. Just because im not repeating mel kiper doesnt mean that i dont know what im saying. . His rankings come from the blesto and nss rankings. Theyre fed to him. Youre simply repeating what he says, with no basis in fact to back it up.

princefielder28
06-16-2010, 12:51 PM
Jeremy Kellem is an intriguing prospect but I think his speed is closer to 4.5 than 4.4 and I certainly would not have him as high on my list of sleeper prospects. I guess if I were to put together a list of my favorite sleepers...

1. Nathan Enderle
2. Kendrick Ellis
3. Justin Rogers
4. Benjamin Ijalana
5. Martin Parker
6. Cecil Shorts III
7. Mark LeGree

You could eliminate Enderle from the list too if you wanna focus on players outside of the FBS, but at the highest Kellem would slot as my 8th best sleeper.

brat316
06-16-2010, 12:55 PM
Didn't Mario Williams play for NC STATE?

Ozzy
06-16-2010, 01:18 PM
Not a bad write up.


However I would say the main story lines are


1) How much better this years group of quarterbacks will be compared to last year, should be by far superior compared to the 2010 class of quarterbacks.

2) How many good offensive lineman can you get out of this years class. Seriously it is stacked at tackle and guard and even center. Tons of talented players at those positions.

3) How good will Allen Bailey be, if he plays up to his potential he could really change the draft because at his absolute peak he could jump Quinn with the numbers he has physically. If Bailey is close to the production Quinn has, he will be an extremely high pick. However sadly doubt he plays up to that potential.




I agree corner is stacked as well, again this up coming class of corners, quarterbacks and receivers is so much better than last year it is ridiculous. Just insane but it is totally the truth. Could break a record for underclassmen declaring with all those good quarterbacks, receivers and corners.

Go_Eagles77
06-16-2010, 01:47 PM
Yeah There should be a lot of RS Soph declaring early. Jeremy Maclin was also one of the RS Soph to leave early in 2009.
LeSean McCoy was as well.

prock
06-16-2010, 01:49 PM
Good write up. I think Herzlich will be the biggest story as well, agreeing with boe.

JFLO
06-16-2010, 02:05 PM
Yea, I don't know how I forgot all the other R/s sophomores,but oh well...

And yes, Mario Williams did play for NC State and if your referencing to my write-up, I didn't say Mario Williams played at North Carolina, I stated that Robert Quinn was the best pass rusher to come around since Mario Williams.

I don't know what your referring to, but I wanted to clear up any confusion and that I didn't write that to begin with.

SickwithIt1010
06-16-2010, 02:20 PM
Well patrick peterson and aaron williams and prince anakamura arent deion sanders. Theyre not even leodis mckelvin.

Sure you can buy 4-3 under tackles, you can buy them in rd 5 or on the ufa market, aka, the grocery store.

On the wrs, the qbs i know im right. Becuase everything I stated was based on fact, not on opinion, or hype coming out of high school, or feed from mel kiper. Which is where youre getting it from.

Obviously you havent seen Peterson play, Peterson is one of the best corner prospects we have seen in a long time.

prock
06-16-2010, 02:53 PM
Obviously you havent seen Peterson play, Peterson is one of the best corner prospects we have seen in a long time.

You only say that because Mel Kiper has brain washed you! Peterson isn't Deion Sanders, therefore isn't good at all, because in a league where passing the ball is the current fad, cornerbacks and safeties aren't valuable!

Oh bce, what a ******* ******....

JFLO
06-16-2010, 02:58 PM
I think Peterson has to actually be the Messiah to be considered an elite cornerback.

Actually, it's like comparing Robert Quinn to friggin Pierre Allen, Quinn has no chance...

LonghornsLegend
06-16-2010, 03:18 PM
Patrick Peterson isn't even that good, it's people like Bill Polian and Bill Belicheck feeding that frenzy to the media to make you fall into that trap, their just trying to make the really good players fall to them and the terrible teams get the true terrible players like Peterson.

LizardState
06-16-2010, 03:36 PM
Really like the trendsetting in college FB aspects of your writeup. Yes it is parity, otherwise good work.

Maybe noteworthy by omission is Von Miller, DE from Texas A&M. He still led the nation in sacks last year with a truly bad Aggie defense that allowed teams to key on him with several blockers. He is projected as an OLB in the NFL & has been called the 2nd coming of Demarcus Ware by several Texas sports pundits, I think that claim will proven or not dpeneding on which team/system drafts him, although he's got top 5 pick written all over him now that he's on the national draft radar.

Good call on UNC safety Deunta Williams whom I've been pushing for a couple wks. here now. He had 6 INTs for 114 yds. last yr, he's 6-2, 210 lbs, 169 tackles in 3 yrs, & was a former ACC Rookie ofthe Yr.

SickwithIt1010
06-16-2010, 04:10 PM
You only say that because Mel Kiper has brain washed you! Peterson isn't Deion Sanders, therefore isn't good at all, because in a league where passing the ball is the current fad, cornerbacks and safeties aren't valuable!

Oh bce, what a ******* ******....

yeah, how could i forget...hes not on the same level as Leodis Mckelvin....what am i thinking. Im talking out of my ass lol

bce
06-16-2010, 04:28 PM
Patrick Peterson isn't even that good, it's people like Bill Polian and Bill Belicheck feeding that frenzy to the media to make you fall into that trap, their just trying to make the really good players fall to them and the terrible teams get the true terrible players like Peterson.


You just disparaged me and called me a troll for saying the exact same thing. Are you just trying to be different?

RealityCheck
06-16-2010, 04:29 PM
You just disparaged me and called me a troll for saying the exact same thing. Are you just trying to be different?
You're the one trying to be different.

Right, Robert Griffin at #2?

bce
06-16-2010, 04:30 PM
I agree totally peterson is way overrated. He's my #1 corner and the only one id take in the first rd at this point, but a top 5 pick, just nowhere near that gifted.

roscoesdad27
06-16-2010, 08:41 PM
Peterson isn't Deion Sanders

no he isnt...he is mel blount who was arguably better than sanders.

OSUGiants17
06-16-2010, 09:36 PM
You're an idiot.

I agree completely, and you forgot Ras-I Dowling and Brandon Haris at CB, which makes the total of 1st round CBs go up to 5

OSUGiants17
06-16-2010, 09:46 PM
You just disparaged me and called me a troll for saying the exact same thing. Are you just trying to be different?
it's called sarcasm dumbass.

I agree totally peterson is way overrated. He's my #1 corner and the only one id take in the first rd at this point, but a top 5 pick, just nowhere near that gifted.
No one said he is overrated, so who are you agreeing with? And if he isn't even on the same level of Leodis, why is he your #1? And have you not watched guys like Amukamara, Dowling, Williams, Haris or Brown? All 1st potential 1st round CBs. And AJ Green a BUST?!?!?!?! Are you kidding? He is the best WR prospect I have seen in all my life. The guy has proven himself time and time again and in one of the best conferences out there(SEC), and is more then NFL ready. And Julio, Floyd and Baldwin are all 1st round WRs as well. This is one of the best drafts the NFL has seen in years, deep at every position but O-Line, but I'm sure some O-Linemen will breakout this year and jump into round 1.

Thumper
06-16-2010, 09:52 PM
Peterson is overrated, he went against AJ Green and Julio Jones this past season and they both toasted him for 100+ yards and a TD. AJ Green dominated him. Peterson is a fantastic prospect, but he is all potential right now as he hasn't really shown up against NFL level talent (Green and Jones). Personally I think that Aaron Williams and Patrick Peterson are similar, both fantastic athletes, elite upside, great length, great quickness and are really physical. What might hold them back is consistency, pre-snap diagnostic ability and route awareness. They're both raw.

Personally I really like Prince Amukamara, Amukamara uses his exceptional size, burst, length, fluidity, quickness and instincts to get the job done. Amukamara was shut down last year, he was part of that incredibly talented defense at Nebraska and he could've been the most important piece after Suh. Amukamara is a great press corner and he stays with his man in coverage, he is always in their pocket. In terms of polish and pro-readiness, Prince is #1 IMO. Also, the National Scouting Service rated him as the top senior prospect in college football if that means anything.

TACKLE
06-16-2010, 11:08 PM
Peterson is overrated, he went against AJ Green and Julio Jones this past season and they both toasted him for 100+ yards and a TD. AJ Green dominated him. Peterson is a fantastic prospect, but he is all potential right now as he hasn't really shown up against NFL level talent (Green and Jones). Personally I think that Aaron Williams and Patrick Peterson are similar, both fantastic athletes, elite upside, great length, great quickness and are really physical. What might hold them back is consistency, pre-snap diagnostic ability and route awareness. They're both raw.


This post is frustrating because its blatantly obvious that you did not actually watch those games and you made assumptions based on the stat line. Julio had four catches for 102 yards. Julio had two catches when Peterson was on him and both were quick routes that only went for a short gain. Peterson wasn't even on the field when Julio scored his 73 yards TD and he missed a portion of the game with cramps. Julio was a complete non-factor when Peterson was in the game. He had 3 PBU's despite limited playing time. Peterson also came back in after being hurt and made a game changing INT on Julio Jones that was called back on what was the worst call of the 2009 college football season. To say that Julio "torched" him for over 100 yards is completely false.

AJ Green certainly did not "dominate" him. He struggled to get open the whole first half. He got behind Peterson once but the ball was overthrown. The announcers were surprised that Peterson was able to shut him down because he absolutely dominated the previous two weeks. He had a TD catch of like 17 yards and another catch that was around 30 yards and both of those were not on Peterson. AJ did have a couple of catches while Peterson was covering him but Peterson also made several plays breaking up passes on balls that were thrown to Green.

Using WR stats when you didn't see the game and don't know the circumstances is a very ineffective way of evaluating CB prospects.

Thumper
06-16-2010, 11:21 PM
I'm 10 minutes into the game right now, AJ Green has been targeted twice, once underneath on an easy play and another time he was open deep down the seam. He was open both times and would've had catches if Joe Cox was a halfway accurate thrower. And when I say he was open down the seam, I mean he had toasted Patrick Peterson and he would've had a 96 yard touchdown.

Right now, AJ Green is winning the battle.

draftguru151
06-16-2010, 11:36 PM
The overthrow by Cox was the only time Green really beat Peterson. Peterson easily has the potential to be the best CB prospect in a while, last year he had a few mistakes but we're talking about a sophomore, judging a 2nd year guy for being over aggressive and a little inconsistent is a bit much.

SickwithIt1010
06-17-2010, 02:34 AM
I'm 10 minutes into the game right now, AJ Green has been targeted twice, once underneath on an easy play and another time he was open deep down the seam. He was open both times and would've had catches if Joe Cox was a halfway accurate thrower. And when I say he was open down the seam, I mean he had toasted Patrick Peterson and he would've had a 96 yard touchdown.

Right now, AJ Green is winning the battle.

I forgot that corners never get burned.

OSUGiants17
06-17-2010, 08:11 AM
I forgot that corners never get burned.

Deion Sanders never got burned.

JFLO
06-17-2010, 08:48 AM
Yea, I'm with the Peterson team in the debate.

The majority of Jones' yards when they played LSU was on that short screen when he wasn't even covered by Peterson. That was a legit 60-70 yards right there.

And besides the time where Green had beaten Peterson on the overthrow, Patrick had him on lock down the majority of the time that he was covering him.

LizardState
06-18-2010, 10:51 AM
Deion Sanders never got burned.

Except when he missed on all those comical tackles. Great coverage corner, lousy tackler.

dannyz
06-18-2010, 01:14 PM
I think it is smart to go early to the NFL Draft if you are ready and are a First Round Pick. Don't risk getting an injury like Sam Bradford he got lucky and was still somehow the First OverAll Pick but remember their could be better Prospects at your position next year and they could be you out to be the first one pick at that position.

bce
06-23-2010, 05:32 PM
You're the one trying to be different.

Right, Robert Griffin at #2?

Right exactly robert griffin #2. The 6 3 mike vick clone #2. I'll take it. hes like mike vick, without the baggage. The michael vick experiience, witout the hangover.

Sniper
06-23-2010, 07:51 PM
And AJ Green a BUST?!?!?!?! Are you kidding? He is the best WR prospect I have seen in all my life.

Your lifetime clearly does not encompass Calvin Johnson's lifetime.

619
06-23-2010, 08:01 PM
And AJ Green a BUST?!?!?!?! Are you kidding? He is the best WR prospect I have seen in all my life.

Thanks to Sniper for catching this.

You must be very young, OSU. And I like you, too. Or you've got a really, REALLY short memory span.

TACKLE
06-23-2010, 08:06 PM
I am a big AJ Green fan but....

Michael Floyd > AJ Green

by a very slight edge.

wonderbredd24
06-23-2010, 08:08 PM
Deion Sanders never got burned.
http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/1221/pg2_w_sanders_195.jpg
Not so sure about that one

wonderbredd24
06-23-2010, 08:09 PM
I am a big AJ Green fan but....

Michael Floyd > AJ Green

by a very slight edge.

I'll take AJ Green over Floyd myself, but to beat Calvin Johnson... it'd take one helluva season + work outs

619
06-23-2010, 08:09 PM
So that makes it Sniper, TACKLE and I on the 'Michael Floyd is the top eligible receiver in the '10 class' bandwagon.

Am I right?

TACKLE
06-23-2010, 08:11 PM
So that makes it Sniper, TACKLE and I on the 'Michael Floyd is the top eligible receiver in the '10 class' bandwagon.

Am I right?

Maybe you could throw in the biggest ND homer on the board in there too:

Scott Wright. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

iowatreat54
06-23-2010, 08:15 PM
So that makes it Sniper, TACKLE and I on the 'Michael Floyd is the top eligible receiver in the '10 class' bandwagon.

Am I right?

I actually like Floyd the most out of the WRs and would take him over any of them if I had my choice. It has nothing to do with thinking he's more skilled or has better measurements. Just for whatever reason, whenever I watch him play I love him. I can't explain it.

dannyz
06-24-2010, 03:18 PM
I like all three. Jones - Can go over the middle and take a hit. Green - Can make all the Randy Moss like Catches. Floyd - Can do both and if can stay healthy for the whole season might be the number 1 WR.

prock
06-24-2010, 03:41 PM
I LOVE Floyd. One of my best friends once got dunked on by Michael Floyd.

bce
06-24-2010, 04:28 PM
I LOVE Floyd. One of my best friends once got dunked on by Michael Floyd.


And this means what? Is this how you do your evaluations based on the fact that your friend got dunked on by someone. I played a lot of hoops, im 5 8 and i never got dunked on. They go for the stuff they get the hard foul.

iowatreat54
06-24-2010, 04:30 PM
Dear god, he's back.

And I was just starting to think this forum wasn't nearly entertaining enough the last week or so. Now I have something to look forward to reading at work.

bce
06-24-2010, 04:36 PM
I question simply the validity of why he "loves" michael floyd. Is knowing someone who got dunked on by micheal floyd reason for michael floyd to be a high pick?

JFLO
06-24-2010, 04:46 PM
I question simply the validity of why he "loves" michael floyd. Is knowing someone who got dunked on by micheal floyd reason for michael floyd to be a high pick?

I've been dunked on by Jared Sullinger before...it was amazing.

bce
06-24-2010, 04:47 PM
So he should be a top 10 pick in the nfl draft

JFLO
06-24-2010, 04:49 PM
So he should be a top 10 pick in the nfl draft

Actually, he's a basketball player. He was a consensus Top 5 recruit in 2010. He'll also be a freshman at The Ohio State University in the fall.

Thanks for trying though.

prock
06-24-2010, 05:00 PM
No. Sorry bce. I know you are ******* ******** so it is hard to comprehend things like this, but I love Michael Floyd as a player, and threw out a little fun fact about him. So, please leave the site again, it was so nice without you. I don't give a **** how tall you are or what you would do in the situation.

bce
06-24-2010, 05:20 PM
Actually, he's a basketball player. He was a consensus Top 5 recruit in 2010. He'll also be a freshman at The Ohio State University in the fall.

Thanks for trying though.
Thanks for validating my point.

bce
06-24-2010, 05:21 PM
No. Sorry bce. I know you are ******* ******** so it is hard to comprehend things like this, but I love Michael Floyd as a player, and threw out a little fun fact about him. So, please leave the site again, it was so nice without you. I don't give a **** how tall you are or what you would do in the situation.

I'll leave the day you post anything of relevance.

prock
06-24-2010, 05:24 PM
I'll leave the day you post anything of relevance.

Damn, you would have left a long time ago. Liar.

JFLO
06-24-2010, 05:25 PM
Thanks for validating my point.

Well, you obviously didn't know who he was...so I really didn't validate any point of yours. Actually, I would say he has a little bit of a shot to be a Top 10 pick in the 2011 NBA Draft. Not a great shot, but it's decent.

By the way, you're an idiot.

bce
06-24-2010, 05:51 PM
What you say is simply opinion. What i say is opinion based on fact. Im sorry you dont like it, but the facts are the facts, if they debunk what your opinion is, maybe you should just change your opinion.

iowatreat54
06-24-2010, 06:33 PM
Damn, you would have left a long time ago. Liar.

Quick, post that everyone on here is spoon fed Mel Kiper's opinion, which isn't really his because other people do the work for him, and therefore bce is better than all of us, and obviously Mel Kiper.

Quick, do it and he will leave for good!

Btw apparently bce has better reading comprehension than all of us. "One of my friends once got dunked on by Michael Floyd" now = "My friend got dunked on by Floyd, and because of that he is easily the best WR in the draft and should be picked #1, and is the greatest football player who ever lived. No other reason, just because he dunked on my friend." I mean, I didn't even notice that when I read it. Props to you, bce.

prock
06-24-2010, 10:56 PM
Quick, post that everyone on here is spoon fed Mel Kiper's opinion, which isn't really his because other people do the work for him, and therefore bce is better than all of us, and obviously Mel Kiper.

Quick, do it and he will leave for good!

Btw apparently bce has better reading comprehension than all of us. "One of my friends once got dunked on by Michael Floyd" now = "My friend got dunked on by Floyd, and because of that he is easily the best WR in the draft and should be picked #1, and is the greatest football player who ever lived. No other reason, just because he dunked on my friend." I mean, I didn't even notice that when I read it. Props to you, bce.

Yeah, how did he know that's what I was implying? I was trying to be discrete about it, but that ****** figured me out. He is so brilliant. Ugh. I tell ya, rationality and common sense are things we take for granted these days..

Brent
06-24-2010, 11:11 PM
What you say is simply opinion. What i say is opinion based on fact. Im sorry you dont like it, but the facts are the facts
oh my god this is so funny. keep it up, bce.

bce
06-25-2010, 04:45 PM
I promise to do so. Fact is a corner is never and has never been the #1 player in any draft. Thats the facts.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 07:03 PM
I promise to do so. Fact is a corner is never and has never been the #1 player in any draft. Thats the facts.

being the #1 overall player and being picked #1 overall are 2 completely different things....c.b. is of now (but thats changing as the game does) an undervalued position which allows less talented players from higher valued positions (q.b., l.t., d.e.) to go higher.

patrick peterson = mel blount....and thou he isnt a true "shut down" corner in the scrabble/deion sense he just might be the best cover 2 corner prospect ever and if i'm a cover 2 team that needs a #1 corner but already has a d.e., q.b. and l.t. i wouldnt hesitate to pick peterson #1 if he has another great season and tests well at the combine.

bce
06-25-2010, 07:23 PM
patrick peterson will=mel blount when he proves it on the field. Youre talking about the best ever. And mel blount had ball skills too. I think one year he had like 13 interceptions or something like that. The idea that the best ever, mr mel blount wasnt a shutdown corner is opinion most certainly undoubtedly without question not based on fact

The #1 player in the draft is always a player of a "higher value position". thats why they are "higher value positions".You may have a "less talented" player at a position of more value be the #1 overall player. Because they are still going to be "more valuable" than the best corner. the #1 overall player in the draft has NEVER EVER NEVER EVER been a corner. EVER. The # 2 player in the draft has never ever never ever been a corner. Not in the modern draft, no way no chance.

The reason you dont draft corners with top 5 picks is simply, you dont need greatness there to win championships. You need greatness at positions of higher value. And you need players who come from positions of a physically smaller human sample size, like left tackles. left tackles are picked high based on lack of humans who have the physical skill set to play the position effectively. The world is full of patrick peterson sized humans. You dont need greatness to win at that position, and the sample size for huimans who can play corner is larger than other positions.

It doesnt mean petersons not a good prospect. he is. hes on my board. Its not peterson thats the problem. Its the value of his position with regards to winning.

bce
06-25-2010, 07:34 PM
Future rule, dont ever compare a college player to the best ever. You can compare to a current nfl upper echelon player, but dont equate dudes to mel blount or deion sanders. Its a recipe for disaster

bored of education
06-25-2010, 07:41 PM
seriously, nothing tops the comeback of Herzlich. it is quite amazing what he has been through and where he is at now.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 07:50 PM
The #1 player in the draft is always a player of a "higher value position". thats why they are "higher value positions".You may have a "less talented" player at a position of more value be the #1 overall player. Because they are still going to be "more valuable" than the best corner. the #1 overall player in the draft has NEVER EVER NEVER EVER been a corner. EVER. The # 2 player in the draft has never ever never ever been a corner. Not in the modern draft, no way no chance.

The reason you dont draft corners with top 5 picks is simply, you dont need greatness there to win championships. You need greatness at positions of higher value. And you need players who come from positions of a physically smaller human sample size, like left tackles. left tackles are picked high based on lack of humans who have the physical skill set to play the position effectively. The world is full of patrick peterson sized humans. You dont need greatness to win at that position, and the sample size for huimans who can play corner is larger than other positions.


1) peterson is a better prospect and will be picked higher than the less abundant 300 pound offensive and defensive tackles in this draft reguardless of the sample size of humans and IF he isnt it surely wont be because they're better overall prospects...it seems like your having a hard time grasping the difference between a big board and a mock draft, their 1 and the same to you?...generally the top tier players from less valued positions will be rated higher than alot of guys from higher valued positions on a big board but will be picked much lower in a mock, get it?....so under your theory round 1 of every draft should consist of 300+ pound players only?...or atleast the top 10 should right?...lol

2) it will take a truely unique situation and prospect for a corner to go #1 overall but with the heavy passing trend it might not be too far off.

3) i remember in the 90's when a certain corner was THE determing factor when seperating 2 very even football teams and winning the superbowl....deion sanders on the 9ers and boys!

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 07:51 PM
Future rule, dont ever compare a college player to the best ever. You can compare to a current nfl upper echelon player, but dont equate dudes to mel blount or deion sanders. Its a recipe for disaster

i'm comparing skill sets

TitanHope
06-25-2010, 07:56 PM
patrick peterson will=mel blount when he proves it on the field. Youre talking about the best ever. And mel blount had ball skills too. I think one year he had like 13 interceptions or something like that. The idea that the best ever, mr mel blount wasnt a shutdown corner is opinion most certainly undoubtedly without question not based on fact.

Mel Blount isn't the best ever CB of all time. He's a HOF'er, and thus one of the best to ever play his position, but not the GOAT.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 08:08 PM
Mel Blount isn't the best ever CB of all time. He's a HOF'er, and thus one of the best to ever play his position, but not the GOAT.

i disagree, him and deion are 1a/1b to me

bce
06-25-2010, 08:09 PM
1) peterson is a better prospect and will be picked higher than the less abundant 300 pound offensive and defensive tackles in this draft reguardless of the sample size of humans and IF he isnt it surely wont be because they're better overall prospects...it seems like your having a hard time grasping the difference between a big board and a mock draft, their 1 and the same to you?...generally the top tier players from less valued positions will be rated higher than alot of guys from higher valued positions on a big board but will be picked much lower in a mock, get it?....so under your theory round 1 of every draft should consist of 300+ pound players only?...or atleast the top 10 should right?...lol

2) it will take a truely unique situation and prospect for a corner to go #1 overall but with the heavy passing trend it might not be too far off.

3) i remember in the 90's when a certain corner was THE determing factor when seperating 2 very even football teams and winning the superbowl....deion sanders on the 9ers and boys!

1. That may be the case, but it will surely be the wrong pick. Im not having a hard time grasping the difference at all. The big board should be a numerical listing of the most VALUABLE prospects, not a listing of the most gifted for their position. My valuing is as follows. QBs are always the most valuable, provided they have the necessary skill set. Not the best skill set ever, the necessary skill set, because of the few humans who can play the position effectively and the absoulute necessity of having greatness there to win championships. Pass rushers are next, because of the absolute necessity of having them to win championships. Left tackles and nose tackles are next, because of the few humans who have the physical skill set to play the position effectively. The rest, if you already have all those, you can pick the most talented player at another position. But if youre selecting in the top 10, chances are you dont have those. You dont pick corners if you need one of the above and they have the necessary abilities to play the position.

2. Defending the pass in the nfl effectively has less to do with corners and more to do with pressure. if you are concerned about stopping the pass effectively, you draft pass rushers first, thats the only thing that hinders these super elite qbs. You cant run around in coverage all day and expect any corner to stop any elite passing game. It will not happen. Only through pressure do you stop the elite passing games.

3. And those two teams were already great teams. he MAY have been the difference between two great teams, but those teams had the other key necessities. deion sanders was the cherry on top, not the steak.

Corners can be the cherry on top. But they will never be the steak

TACKLE
06-25-2010, 08:09 PM
I'd probably put Blount in the top 3 CB's of all time.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:11 PM
Mel Blount isn't the best ever CB of all time. He's a HOF'er, and thus one of the best to ever play his position, but not the GOAT.


Im going to respectfully disagree. He was amongst the best cover men ever, he was the most physical and best tackling corner ever, and he had great ball skills. When you look at the "complete package", theres really not a close second.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 08:23 PM
1. That may be the case, but it will surely be the wrong pick. Im not having a hard time grasping the difference at all. The big board should be a numerical listing of the most VALUABLE prospects, not a listing of the most gifted for their position. My valuing is as follows. QBs are always the most valuable, provided they have the necessary skill set. Not the best skill set ever, the necessary skill set, because of the few humans who can play the position effectively and the absoulute necessity of having greatness there to win championships. Pass rushers are next, because of the absolute necessity of having them to win championships. Left tackles and nose tackles are next, because of the few humans who have the physical skill set to play the position effectively. The rest, if you already have all those, you can pick the most talented player at another position. But if youre selecting in the top 10, chances are you dont have those. You dont pick corners if you need one of the above and they have the necessary abilities to play the position.

2. Defending the pass in the nfl effectively has less to do with corners and more to do with pressure. if you are concerned about stopping the pass effectively, you draft pass rushers first, thats the only thing that hinders these super elite qbs. You cant run around in coverage all day and expect any corner to stop any elite passing game. It will not happen. Only through pressure do you stop the elite passing games.

3. And those two teams were already great teams. he MAY have been the difference between two great teams, but those teams had the other key necessities. deion sanders was the cherry on top, not the steak.

Corners can be the cherry on top. But they will never be the steak

1) NO the bigboard is not based on value but rather on pure talent!!!1...and if it is than whats the difference between a big board and a mock draft to you?...and you contradict your sample of human theory here as well cause you have pass rushers (generally between 250 and 270 pounds) ahead of offensive and nose tackles who are 300+ pounds despite there being far more 260 pound men than 320 pound men on the planet.

2) i agree but its more balanced than you imply

3) besides q.b. any position can be defined as the cherry on top so whats your point?

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 08:24 PM
Im going to respectfully disagree. He was amongst the best cover men ever, he was the most physical and best tackling corner ever, and he had great ball skills. When you look at the "complete package", theres really not a close second.

agreed....althou i'd take a blount/sanders tandem as opposed to 2 blounts if you know what i mean.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:40 PM
1) NO the bigboard is not based on value but rather on pure talent!!!1...and if it is than whats the difference between a big board and a mock draft to you?...and you contradict your sample of human theory here as well cause you have pass rushers (generally between 250 and 270 pounds) ahead of offensive and nose tackles who are 300+ pounds despite there being far more 260 pound men than 320 pound men on the planet.

2) i agree but its more balanced than you imply

3) besides q.b. any position can be defined as the cherry on top so whats your point?


The most valuable player is the best player. The reason pass rushers are second is the absolute necessity to have them to have any chance of winning championships. The reason tackles are 3rd is because there arent many on the planet who can do it. It goes winning, winning, then skill set. What do you need to win comes first. Qbs have both necessity of winning and few humans who can do it. Thats why they are the MVPs and i dont mean media mvps. Pass rushers are required for winning, and stopping siad quarterbacks from doing their business. They are required for winning. after that, it can come down to skill set, of which the rarest physical skill set is that of the left tackle. the other positions, the skill set drops in rarity. A superstar left tackle is not required to win super bowls, but neither is a star rb or wr or any other positions. Theres just less of them and thus the reason you see them picked high.

2. So if you agree why would you pick patrick peterson over a pass rusher unless you already had 2 of them,

3. I would agree to a point. The point being that in todays nfl you need to put the qb under pressure. Other than that, greatness is not required at any other position to win championships. Its good to have greatness elsewhere, but its not required

When youre picking at the top of the draft, you get the steak unless theres no steak available. Then you add the philly cheese sauce. then you add the lettuce onions. You dont build the championship sandwich by acquiring the onions and lettuce first. Thats why you see the same teams contending every year. becuase teams draft the lettuce and onions before they have the steak and philly cheese and the same teams just continue to acquire more steak and philly cheese. You can have a pretty good sandwich with just steak and philly cheese. But a lettuce and onion sandwich unless youre some kind of weirdo is never going to be good.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:46 PM
Deion sanders was the onions. he wasnt the steak and philly cheese that made those teams great. They had the steak before he got there. You dont pick the onions beofre the steak and philly cheese. then you end up with a onion lettuce and bun football team.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 08:55 PM
2. So if you agree why would you pick patrick peterson over a pass rusher unless you already had 2 of them,


lol this is exactly the flaw in your argument, how many pass rushers (4-3 d.e.'s/3-4olb's) would you take over peterson if your team needed starters at both spots?...quinn is the only pass rusher i would pick over peterson if i had a need at both spots....i pick peterson over romeus, miller, crawford and the rest of the potential first round pass rushers without hesitation everytime.

quinn is my #1 overall player on my big board althou locker and mallet go before him in my mock....so i reckon your bigboard and mock are 1 and the same?

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 08:57 PM
Deion sanders was the onions. he wasnt the steak and philly cheese that made those teams great. They had the steak before he got there. You dont pick the onions beofre the steak and philly cheese. then you end up with a onion lettuce and bun football team.

lol...gimme an example of a non q.b. that was steak and the superbowl champ couldnt have won without him?...deion is filet mignon my friend!

bce
06-25-2010, 09:09 PM
lol this is exactly the flaw in your argument, how many pass rushers (4-3 d.e.'s/3-4olb's) would you take over peterson if your team needed starters at both spots?...quinn is the only pass rusher i would pick over peterson if i had a need at both spots....i pick peterson over romeus, miller, crawford and the rest of the potential first round pass rushers without hesitation everytime.

quinn is my #1 overall player on my big board althou locker and mallet go before him in my mock....so i reckon your bigboard and mock are 1 and the same?

If i needed an elite pass rusher and there was one available that appered to have the requirements to play the position at a high level, even if i already had one, I would pick them ahead of peterson. You really need 2 these days. The new york giants already had justin tuck, osi, and kiwanuka, and they still took one. You can never have too many. It also keeps them off other teams as well, and when they get to a point when they cost too much or dwindle in production, you have a guy ready to step in.

As you can see from my previous thread, unless i already had a top qb, (not likely if picking in the top 10) or had just recently drafted a top qb prospect, they would go in the top however many positions, provided they displayed the necessary skill set. The st. louis rams and detroit lions obviously wouldnt draft a qb, so if they happened to be the top 2 next year, then i would pick a pass rusher, becuase neither has one. Then id draft at least one more later in the draft.

So to answer your question, the only thing that stops me from picking a qb is already having an elite or having just recently drafted a top prospect. The big board dilineates from the mock draft based on need at those two positions at the top of the draft. If all the qbs are taken/dont need or all the pass rushers of the necessary skill set are taken dont need, then you can fish for elite prospects at other psotions

bce
06-25-2010, 09:11 PM
lol...gimme an example of a non q.b. that was steak and the superbowl champ couldnt have won without him?...deion is filet mignon my friend!

Charles haley won 5 super bowls only one with deion sanders. Thats why hes "philly cheese sauce".

You dont build your team around deion sanders. You add him to your team to put you over the top.
If youre picking in the top 10, hes not putting you over the top.

bce
06-25-2010, 09:13 PM
until you get the steak and philly cheese sauce

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 09:14 PM
If i needed an elite pass rusher and there was one available that appered to have the requirements to play the position at a high level, even if i already had one, I would pick them ahead of peterson. You really need 2 these days. The new york giants already had justin tuck, osi, and kiwanuka, and they still took one. You can never have too many. It also keeps them off other teams as well, and when they get to a point when they cost too much or dwindle in production, you have a guy ready to step in.

As you can see from my previous thread, unless i already had a top qb, (not likely if picking in the top 10) or had just recently drafted a top qb prospect, they would go in the top however many positions, provided they displayed the necessary skill set. The st. louis rams and detroit lions obviously wouldnt draft a qb, so if they happened to be the top 2 next year, then i would pick a pass rusher, becuase neither has one. Then id draft at least one more later in the draft.

So to answer your question, the only thing that stops me from picking a qb is already having an elite or having just recently drafted a top prospect. The big board dilineates from the mock draft based on need at those two positions at the top of the draft. If all the qbs are taken/dont need or all the pass rushers of the necessary skill set are taken dont need, then you can fish for elite prospects at other psotions

you still didnt answer my question...how many 4-3 d.e.'s/3-4 olb's would you take over peterson if your team needed a starter at both spots?....would you take romeus over peterson....von miller, jack crawford?

scenerio

1) rams....quinn
2) detriot....?....needs are l.t., c.b., d.e......who do you take?.....i take peterson without hesitation and i'm positve the in the know lions fans would agree with me.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 09:18 PM
Charles haley won 5 super bowls only one with deion sanders. Thats why hes "philly cheese sauce".

You dont build your team around deion sanders. You add him to your team to put you over the top.
If youre picking in the top 10, hes not putting you over the top.

so you would take haley over prime time?...your points constantly contradict each other....you said that deion was simply a piece on an already stacked team, doesnt the exact same apply to haley?

bce
06-25-2010, 09:31 PM
you still didnt answer my question...how many 4-3 d.e.'s/3-4 olb's would you take over peterson if your team needed a starter at both spots?....would you take romeus over peterson....von miller, jack crawford?

scenerio

1) rams....quinn
2) detriot....?....needs are l.t., c.b., d.e......who do you take?.....i take peterson without hesitation and i'm positve the in the know lions fans would agree with me.

As you can see from my thread, i would take both romeus and miller over peterson. Im not a robert quinn or jack crawford desciple, but anyone else who flashes this year will also move ahead of peterson.

And the detroit lions dont know what theyre doing, thus the position they find themselves in. Fans dont know anything. The detroit lions should have drafted 2 pass rushers this year in the first round. Thats why they are 6-40 the last 3 years and havent been to the playoffs in 10 years. Because they 1) pick rancid steak and 2) dont add the philly cheese sauce when its available 3) theyve built their team with onions and lettuce first before they have good quality steak and philly cheese sauce.

The best teams are not constructed in the manner in which the detroit lions are constructing their team. Adding patrick peterson would be adding to those mistakes. Adding more lettuce to a team with what looks to be rotting steak and no philly cheese sauce. Their team is a bun and lettuce. Thats why they are 2-14.

bce
06-25-2010, 09:32 PM
so you would take haley over prime time?...your points constantly contradict each other....you said that deion was simply a piece on an already stacked team, doesnt the exact same apply to haley?

Yes i absolutely would take haley over prime time. because haley wins 5 super bowls
and primetime only wins 2, and thats only after he goes on haleys team. and haley wins super bowls without primietime

bce
06-25-2010, 09:33 PM
before he goes to haleys team, primetime wins nothing

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 09:39 PM
The detroit lions should have drafted 2 pass rushers this year in the first round.

so taking the most dominate defensive force in the history of college football was a mistake...LMFWAO!!!!!

Hurricanes25
06-25-2010, 09:41 PM
As you can see from my thread, i would take both romeus and miller over peterson. Im not a robert quinn or jack crawford desciple, but anyone else who flashes this year will also move ahead of peterson.

And the detroit lions dont know what theyre doing, thus the position they find themselves in. Fans dont know anything. The detroit lions should have drafted 2 pass rushers this year in the first round. Thats why they are 6-40 the last 3 years and havent been to the playoffs in 10 years. Because they 1) pick rancid steak and 2) dont add the philly cheese sauce when its available 3) theyve built their team with onions and lettuce first before they have good quality steak and philly cheese sauce.
The best teams are not constructed in the manner in which the detroit lions are constructing their team. Adding patrick peterson would be adding to those mistakes. Adding more lettuce to a team with what looks to be rotting steak and no philly cheese sauce. Their team is a bun and lettuce. Thats why they are 2-14.

Please stop. The more you post, the dumber you're becoming. Suh was the best player in this draft and it was a position of need so the Lions absolutely made the right pick. You can argue the Best pick but there was no pass rusher worth that pick so Best was a good pick considering they also need a boost on offense.

You also say that fans don't know anything but I'm getting the feeling that you think you know everything which you clearly don't.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 09:42 PM
Yes i absolutely would take haley over prime time. because haley wins 5 super bowls
and primetime only wins 2, and thats only after he goes on haleys team. and haley wins super bowls without primietime

lol

a wise man told me dont argue with fools cause people from a distance cant tell who's who

bce
06-25-2010, 09:48 PM
depends on what your measuring stick is. If your measuring stick is media attention and sportscenter highlights and individual accolades, the winner is deion sanders. If your measuring stick is being a key component of 5 super bowl champions, then the winner is charles haley

bce
06-25-2010, 09:50 PM
im about winning championships, im not about players getting accolades or attention or statistics. Im about building teams that win 5 super bowls, thats my philosiphy. Im about building teams that contend for a decade. I see how the contenders are built. They are not built around players like patrick peterson

bce
06-25-2010, 09:52 PM
Please stop. The more you post, the dumber you're becoming. Suh was the best player in this draft and it was a position of need so the Lions absolutely made the right pick. You can argue the Best pick but there was no pass rusher worth that pick so Best was a good pick considering they also need a boost on offense.

You also say that fans don't know anything but I'm getting the feeling that you think you know everything which you clearly don't.


I know for a fact that most casual fans know nothing. I certainly dont know "everything", but i know how champions are constructed. They are not constructed picking defensive tackles #2 overall and paying them 12 million per year. Thats the way 2-14 teams are built.

bce
06-25-2010, 09:53 PM
and i know for a fact that a defensive tackle has never been "the best player" in any draft.

Hurricanes25
06-25-2010, 09:54 PM
and i know for a fact that a defensive tackle has never been "the best player" in any draft.

Well, Suh certainly was this year.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 09:55 PM
im about winning championships, im not about players getting accolades or attention or statistics. Im about building teams that win 5 super bowls, thats my philosiphy. Im about building teams that contend for a decade. I see how the contenders are built. They are not built around players like patrick peterson

please do a mock draft so i can laugh and point out all your contradictions.



so how on earth did the ravens or jets have the 2 best defenses last season without an impact pass rusher?????????

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 09:56 PM
and i know for a fact that a defensive tackle has never been "the best player" in any draft.

kong suh was EASILY the best player in this past draft

bce
06-25-2010, 10:10 PM
Well, Suh certainly was this year.

It would certainly be a historical first. I dont bet on historical firsts. i follw what history says, and history says hes not.

bce
06-25-2010, 10:11 PM
And history tends to repeat itself.

bce
06-25-2010, 10:14 PM
please do a mock draft so i can laugh and point out all your contradictions.



so how on earth did the ravens or jets have the 2 best defenses last season without an impact pass rusher?????????

Theres a thread on here bce's big board or something to that effect.

The jets and ravens didnt win any championships. They had to blitz constantly, and in the end, the philosiphy failed.

bce
06-25-2010, 10:16 PM
my top 32 notice qbs and elite pass rushers at the top.

1. Mallett
2. Griffin
3. Von miller
4. Romeus
5. Baldwin
6. Ingram
7. clay
8. Dion lewis
9. anthony allen
10 jacuizz rodgers
11. i saih pead
12. ryan williams
13. Cameron heyward
14. jerel powe
15. julio jones
16. Robert sands
17. patrick peterson
18. Michael floyd
19. jeremy beal
20 pierre allen
21. jabal sheard
22. akeem ayers
23. Jarrod johnson
24. terrel pryor
25 travis benjamin
26. marcel dreus
27. adrian clayborn
28 jared crick
29 allen bailey
30. armon binns
31. wesly saunders
32 kyle rudolph

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 10:17 PM
Theres a thread on here bce's big board or something to that effect.

The jets and ravens didnt win any championships. They had to blitz constantly, and in the end, the philosiphy failed.

it was because of offensive defenicies dude.

bce
06-25-2010, 10:24 PM
I dont know when i saw peyton manning burning them deep cause they were bringing the house when i saw the jets give up 31 points i dont know if that was an "offensive" loss. But either way, they didnt get it done.

Hurricanes25
06-25-2010, 11:03 PM
It would certainly be a historical first. I dont bet on historical firsts. i follw what history says, and history says hes not.

What the **** are you talking about? Every draft has differnent players so therefore every draft is different.

marshallb
06-25-2010, 11:22 PM
my top 32 notice qbs and elite pass rushers at the top.

1. Mallett
2. Griffin
3. Von miller
4. Romeus
5. Baldwin
6. Ingram
7. clay
8. Dion lewis
9. anthony allen
10 jacuizz rodgers
11. i saih pead
12. ryan williams
13. Cameron heyward
14. jerel powe
15. julio jones
16. Robert sands
17. patrick peterson
18. Michael floyd
19. jeremy beal
20 pierre allen
21. jabal sheard
22. akeem ayers
23. Jarrod johnson
24. terrel pryor
25 travis benjamin
26. marcel dreus
27. adrian clayborn
28 jared crick
29 allen bailey
30. armon binns
31. wesly saunders
32 kyle rudolph

Your big board clearly contradicts your thoughts on value positions unless you think that RB is a value position(which it obviously isn't). You say history repeats itself, well when have 7 RBs ever been in the top 12 prospects of a draft? It's never ever happened.

bce
06-27-2010, 05:54 PM
What the **** are you talking about? Every draft has differnent players so therefore every draft is different.

The draft at least any time in the recent past, has never had a defensive tackle end up as the best player in the draft. Those honors go to the players at positions of higher value.

bce
06-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Its not a contradiction at all. The elite qbs are first, the elite pass rushers come next, then comes the best players at the remaining positions. I happen to believe that most of the best players at the remaing positions are running backs, but im not using top 3 picks on them. Mark ingram might be the "most talented" player at his position overall, but since he plays a position of lower value, the qbs and elite pass rush prospects go ahead of him.

I dont list every qb then every pass rusher. They have to be in my eyes "elite talents" at those positions to warrant the high picks. I can tell you surely if an elite pass rusher shows thats not on the list, he'll fly up over mark ingram.

prock
06-27-2010, 10:57 PM
The draft at least any time in the recent past, has never had a defensive tackle end up as the best player in the draft. Those honors go to the players at positions of higher value.

In the recent past? Is April recent enough for you? I think it's hilarious how you think that the recent past, for example 5-10 years, is a good enough sample size. There is so much bias in that it's not even funny.

bce
06-28-2010, 07:40 PM
Nothing from april has been proven. Youre speculating. Then please by all means find me a draft in the last 20 years where the best player in it has been a defensive tackle. I eagerly await your response.

RealityCheck
06-28-2010, 07:41 PM
my top 32 notice qbs and elite pass rushers at the top.

1. Mallett
2. Griffin
3. Von miller
4. Romeus
5. Baldwin
6. Ingram
7. clay
8. Dion lewis
9. anthony allen
10 jacuizz rodgers
11. i saih pead
12. ryan williams
13. Cameron heyward
14. jerel powe
15. julio jones
16. Robert sands
17. patrick peterson
18. Michael floyd
19. jeremy beal
20 pierre allen
21. jabal sheard
22. akeem ayers
23. Jarrod johnson
24. terrel pryor
25 travis benjamin
26. marcel dreus
27. adrian clayborn
28 jared crick
29 allen bailey
30. armon binns
31. wesly saunders
32 kyle rudolph
Out of the board is not "the top".

bce
06-28-2010, 07:42 PM
I think 10 years of drafts is a pretty solid sample size. These are the modern players, the players who play in the league right now, that play nfl football 2010. not nfl football 1965. Its not the same game.

So again i eagerly await your response.

prock
06-28-2010, 07:42 PM
1995. 10 chars

bce
06-28-2010, 07:43 PM
Out of the board is not "the top".

Please elaborate im not understanding where youre going with this.

RealityCheck
06-28-2010, 07:46 PM
Please elaborate im not understanding where youre going with this.
You say 'pass rushers at the top' yet the consensus top pass rusher in the class is out of your board.

Please elaborate im not understanding where youre going with this.

bce
06-28-2010, 07:56 PM
1995. 10 chars

Youre reaching big time here.

Steve mcnair, my choice for the #1 player
Tony boselli
derrick brooks
curtis martin
ty law
terrel davis

Warren sapp may have been in the top 5, maybe, but it could certainly be argued.

So you had to go back 15 years, not even into the modern game, to find one guy who arguably maybe or maybe not was even a top 5 player. So maybe once in 15 years a defensive tackle is a top 5 player. And youre not even considering the modern game, the players that play in the league right at this moment in your reaching.

Once every 15 years. odds arent looking too good for ndumkong suh to be one of the best. And just looking at the draft it was a pretty weak draft, unlike this year, which was one of the strongest in recent memory.

The odds are stacked real high against ndumkong suh. Real high. Like betting on double 6's. Its going to be a 30-1 shot at it happening.

bce
06-28-2010, 07:57 PM
You say 'pass rushers at the top' yet the consensus top pass rusher in the class is out of your board.

Please elaborate im not understanding where youre going with this.


I dont believe in the 'consensus". I believe the "consensus" #1 pass rusher is a fraud.

prock
06-28-2010, 08:04 PM
Tony Boselli may have been better than Sapp if the Jags trainers didn't destroy him, but as is he isn't the best. McNair isn't even going to be a HOFer, not the best player. Martin was solid but not spectacular. Just good for a long time. Ty Law isn't close. Terrell Davis isn't as good because he lasted like 4 years. Derrick Brooks was great, but not as good as Warren Sapp. Sapp was clearly the best player in that class.

Also an argument could be made for 2006. Haloti Ngata is one of the most underrated players in the league and I would argue a top 5 defender. Mario Williams isn't as consistent, Vernon Davis is just coming into his own, Brick is solid but not spectacular, Cutler and Vince aren't even up for debate, DeMeco, Elvis, Marshall are all good, but an argument could be made for Ngata, who is for sure top 5, likely top 3, and possibly top out of that class.

You say the odds are stacked against him because it only happens once every 15 years, but Suh is the best defensive tackle to come around in the last 15 years. I have this rule, you see, that you have top evaluate everyone as an individual prospect. If you try and clump people together by position, school, skill set, etc, you will look like an idiot. Just because a defensive tackle hasn't been the top player in a long time, doesn't mean it won't happen. There hasn't been as good of a prospect at the position in a long time, so the odds aren't stacked against him.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:42 PM
Tony Boselli may have been better than Sapp if the Jags trainers didn't destroy him, but as is he isn't the best. McNair isn't even going to be a HOFer, not the best player. Martin was solid but not spectacular. Just good for a long time. Ty Law isn't close. Terrell Davis isn't as good because he lasted like 4 years. Derrick Brooks was great, but not as good as Warren Sapp. Sapp was clearly the best player in that class.

Also an argument could be made for 2006. Haloti Ngata is one of the most underrated players in the league and I would argue a top 5 defender. Mario Williams isn't as consistent, Vernon Davis is just coming into his own, Brick is solid but not spectacular, Cutler and Vince aren't even up for debate, DeMeco, Elvis, Marshall are all good, but an argument could be made for Ngata, who is for sure top 5, likely top 3, and possibly top out of that class.

You say the odds are stacked against him because it only happens once every 15 years, but Suh is the best defensive tackle to come around in the last 15 years. I have this rule, you see, that you have top evaluate everyone as an individual prospect. If you try and clump people together by position, school, skill set, etc, you will look like an idiot. Just because a defensive tackle hasn't been the top player in a long time, doesn't mean it won't happen. There hasn't been as good of a prospect at the position in a long time, so the odds aren't stacked against him.


Ty law is a sure hall of famer. Curtis martin is the # 4 rusher in the history of the nfl. Terrel davis was arguably the best running back of his era,a 2000 yard rusher, won 2 rings. Derrick brooks is a sure hall of famer. Tony boselli was the best offensive lineman ive seen live with mine own 2 eyes. Steve mcnair won a few nfl mvps and was a top 10 qb in the league for several years.

I think there a re certainly some debatable assumptions you make about warren sapp being the best player in the draft.


Think of all the defensive tackles that have played in the nfl in the last 15 years.

Youre 100% sure ndumkong suh is the best of all of them. Thats a pretty flimsy limb to go out on. Those are bad odds. Like the odds of hitting the royal flush in carribean stud.

Haloti ngata, like warren sapp, may be one of the top 5 in the draft class he was in, but like warren sapp, that could be debated, especially since that book hasnt been anywhere near being done written.

But Haloti ngata will never be the clear cut #1. And that class was weak as well. You have mario williams and elvis dumervill, two double digit sack per year players, and thats just to start. You have 2 solid nfl starting qbs in the class as well along with others. And again its a weak class.

This class is not weak. This is one of the strongest classes in memory.


Youre betting on double sixes here, saying ndumkong suh is better than haloti ngata and every other defensive tackle drafted in the last 15 years without the assistance of a poor draft class that may help their rating. You put haloti ngata in the 2004 calss hes not a top 10 player. This past class is closer to 2004 level as far as positions other than qb.

You might as well go to the casino find the highest odds against of any bet and place one bet on that hitting and those are the odds ndumkong suh is the best player in this draft

prock
06-28-2010, 08:48 PM
No, not betting on double 6's. Betting on the fact he was obviously the best player in the draft.

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 08:51 PM
and i know for a fact that a defensive tackle has never been "the best player" in any draft.

and i know for a fact that a q.b. from washington or arkansas has never been the best player in a draft nor has a q.b. from washington or arkansas ever been drafted #1 overall so how in the hell could locker or mallet go #1....history says i'm right!!!!...blah blah blah

p.s. warren sapp and haloti ngata are the best players from they're respective classes and king kong suh will be from this class...you have a great point/argument with baldwin and other things but when you constantly spew this type nonsense all your good points get overlooked.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:52 PM
History says its 99% likely that youre wrong. In my opinion, history says its 100% likely that youre wrong.

It would be unprecedented for it to actaully be the case.

Thats betting on double sixes. Or more like betting your going to hit the royal flush on one hand of carribean stud. Its almost impossible for it to be the case, since it never has been the case before.

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 08:53 PM
History says its 99% likely that youre wrong. In my opinion, history says its 100% likely that youre wrong.

It would be unprecedented for it to actaully be the case.


history also says that a q.b. from arkansas or washington has never gone #1...wonder if vegas will give me a thousand to 1 odds on either of them going #1 bsed on that historic fact?...lol

bce
06-28-2010, 08:55 PM
and i know for a fact that a q.b. from washington or arkansas has never been the best player in a draft nor has a q.b. from washington or arkansas ever been drafted #1 overall so how in the hell could locker or mallet go #1....history says i'm right!!!!...blah blah blah

p.s. warren sapp and haloti ngata are the best players from they're respective classes...you have a great point/argument with baldwin and other things but when you constantly spew this type nonsense all your good points get overlooked.


again, terrel davis, curtis martin etc etc. The 4th all time leading rusher, the best back of his era and a 2000 yard rusher with 2 rings. Its certainly open to debate. A two time league mvp qb.

The 2006 book is long from being written. But you already have 2 proven double didgit sack per year players, and if jay cutler or vince young become consistent winning qbs,or win a ring, the point is dead.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:57 PM
2006 also gave us maurice jones drew.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:58 PM
history also says that a q.b. from arkansas or washington has never gone #1...wonder if vegas will give me a thousand to 1 odds on either of them going #1 bsed on that historic fact?...lol


If youre talking about irrelevant facts. But position value is not "irrelevant"

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 09:01 PM
2006 also gave us maurice jones drew.

there are fewer human beings on the planet that are ngats size than there are mjd's size...oh wait thats your arguement!....lol, quit being a hypocritical clown...MAKE A MOCK TO GIVE US ALL A GOOD LAUGH!

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 09:05 PM
If youre talking about irrelevant facts. But position value is not "irrelevant"

TO WHAT EXTENT?....HOW MANY PASS RUSHERS (4-3 D.E'S/3-4 OLB'S) WOULD YOU TAKE OVER PATRICK PETERSON????....AND NOBODY SAID POSITIONAL VALUE IS IRRELEVANT, ITS JUST NOT AS NAZIISTIC RELAVANT AS YOU MAKE IT OUT TO BE I.E. SAYING CHARLES HALEY > THAN DEION SANDERS BECAUSE OF HIS POSITIONAL VALUE IS LAUGHABLE, IT'S LIKE SAYING JEREMY BEAL IS BETTER THAN PATRICK PETERSON BECAUSE OF HIS POSITIONAL VALUE!!!!!!!

P.S. POSITIONAL VALUE IS IRRELEVANT WHEN MAKING AN OVERALL BIG BOARD, THAT WAS MY POINT.

bce
06-28-2010, 09:21 PM
there are fewer human beings on the planet that are ngats size than there are mjd's size...oh wait thats your arguement!....lol, quit being a hypocritical clown...MAKE A MOCK TO GIVE US ALL A GOOD LAUGH!

My mock has already been posted.

And the fewer human beings only applies to left tackles and quaterbacks.

there a re very few 5 6 215 lb men who run 4.35 40 yard dashes and can play football.

bce
06-28-2010, 09:22 PM
and nose tackles. Isnt haloti ngata a nose tackle kind of?

RealityCheck
06-28-2010, 09:23 PM
Ngata plays 3-4 DE.

bce
06-28-2010, 09:24 PM
TO WHAT EXTENT?....HOW MANY PASS RUSHERS (4-3 D.E'S/3-4 OLB'S) WOULD YOU TAKE OVER PATRICK PETERSON????....AND NOBODY SAID POSITIONAL VALUE IS IRRELEVANT, ITS JUST NOT AS NAZIISTIC RELAVANT AS YOU MAKE IT OUT TO BE I.E. SAYING CHARLES HALEY > THAN DEION SANDERS BECAUSE OF HIS POSITIONAL VALUE IS LAUGHABLE, IT'S LIKE SAYING JEREMY BEAL IS BETTER THAN PATRICK PETERSON BECAUSE OF HIS POSITIONAL VALUE!!!!!!!

P.S. POSITIONAL VALUE IS IRRELEVANT WHEN MAKING AN OVERALL BIG BOARD, THAT WAS MY POINT.


Right now it looks like 2. Von miller and greg romeus.But there are also 2 quarterbacks, several running backs, some wrs, that i would also take over patrick peterson

Charles haley was a main cog on teams that won 5 rings. hes the most decorated player in nfl history.

bce
06-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Ngata plays 3-4 DE.


sometimes. but hes built more like a nose tackle. 6 5 340. More like shawn rogers than ndumkong suh.

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 09:28 PM
and nose tackles. Isnt haloti ngata a nose tackle kind of?

he's listed as a 3-4 d.e. but in our specific hybrid scheme he often slides inside when we pre snap switch to the 4-3 to play essentialy a 4-3 n.t. role...when gregg got hurt a couple years ago he did play the 3-4 nose quite a bit and still plays it from time to time for rotational purposes...either way i'm gonna find your post in this thread to show your constant contradiction on your human size theory.

TACKLE
06-28-2010, 09:34 PM
P.S. POSITIONAL VALUE IS IRRELEVANT WHEN MAKING AN OVERALL BIG BOARD, THAT WAS MY POINT.

As much as I hate to hate to agree with bce, that is not entirely true. The reason the concept of position value exists is because some positions are able to have a greater impact than others. Using last year as an example, if you felt that Suh had the ability to be an elite DT and you felt that Bradford had the ability to be an elite QB, you have to have the QB higher on your board. This exception really only apply when relating players to guy you believe can be true franchise QB's. With that being said, it is ridiculous to say that a DT or a CB cannot be the best player in the draft.

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 09:35 PM
1. That may be the case, but it will surely be the wrong pick. Im not having a hard time grasping the difference at all. The big board should be a numerical listing of the most VALUABLE prospects, not a listing of the most gifted for their position. My valuing is as follows. QBs are always the most valuable, provided they have the necessary skill set. Not the best skill set ever, the necessary skill set, because of the few humans who can play the position effectively and the absoulute necessity of having greatness there to win championships. Pass rushers are next, because of the absolute necessity of having them to win championships. Left tackles and nose tackles are next, because of the few humans who have the physical skill set to play the position effectively.

so if the debate between mjd and ngata is debateable you would no doubt give the slight edge to ngata cause of this theory of YOURS right?

bce
06-28-2010, 09:42 PM
he's listed as a 3-4 d.e. but in our specific hybrid scheme he often slides inside when we pre snap switch to the 4-3 to play essentialy a 4-3 n.t. role...when gregg got hurt a couple years ago he did play the 3-4 nose quite a bit and still plays it from time to time for rotational purposes...either way i'm gonna find your post in this thread to show your constant contradiction on your human size theory.

Right but hes built more like a nose tackle and has played nose tackle. More like shawn rodgers than ndumkong suh would you not agree? probably why hes an excellent player, versatility. Ive seen him play nose tackle live with mine own eyes.

bce
06-28-2010, 09:43 PM
1. That may be the case, but it will surely be the wrong pick. Im not having a hard time grasping the difference at all. The big board should be a numerical listing of the most VALUABLE prospects, not a listing of the most gifted for their position. My valuing is as follows. QBs are always the most valuable, provided they have the necessary skill set. Not the best skill set ever, the necessary skill set, because of the few humans who can play the position effectively and the absoulute necessity of having greatness there to win championships. Pass rushers are next, because of the absolute necessity of having them to win championships. Left tackles and nose tackles are next, because of the few humans who have the physical skill set to play the position effectively.

so if the debate between mjd and ngata is debateable you would no doubt give the slight edge to ngata cause of this theory of YOURS right?

Maybe a slight edge, but its not a clear cut edge, and its also not clear cut that haloti ngata and mjd are the top 2 players in the draft either.

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 09:49 PM
As much as I hate to hate to agree with bce, that is not entirely true. The reason the concept of position value exists is because some positions are able to have a greater impact than others. Using last year as an example, if you felt that Suh had the ability to be an elite DT and you felt that Bradford had the ability to be an elite QB, you have to have the QB higher on your board. This exception really only apply when relating players to guy you believe can be true franchise QB's. With that being said, it is ridiculous to say that a DT or a CB cannot be the best player in the draft.

your right when looking at it from a team to team way...but an overall big board will have no positional value...i.e. players from a position of need that a team is currently picking may be rated higher on a team specific board based on positonal value but that said player could be 10 slots lower on an overall big board that doesnt take positional value into account.....thats why we have reaches and steals....an overall big board not intended for any specific team is the theme when making a true big board, go to your team specific site or specify if your making a big board based on a specific team need.

ravens big board could go as follows to me
1) p. peterson
2) a.j. green
3) j. baldwin
4) j. jones
5) m. floyd
6) a. williams

whereas a jax big board could go like this
1) j. locker
2) r. mallet
3) a. luck
4) r. quinn
5) a.j. green
6) j. baldwin

then you got the OVERALL big board which i'm more than sure was the theme of your thread which to me goes like this

1) r. quinn
2) j. locker
3) r. mallet
4) p. peterson
5) a.j. green
6) c. heyward

bce
06-28-2010, 09:52 PM
As much as I hate to hate to agree with bce, that is not entirely true. The reason the concept of position value exists is because some positions are able to have a greater impact than others. Using last year as an example, if you felt that Suh had the ability to be an elite DT and you felt that Bradford had the ability to be an elite QB, you have to have the QB higher on your board. This exception really only apply when relating players to guy you believe can be true franchise QB's. With that being said, it is ridiculous to say that a DT or a CB cannot be the best player in the draft.

Its not ridiculous if its never happened in at least the last 20 years. Its never happened, a corner or dt has never been the best player in any draft

bce
06-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Im not talking about a team by team big board. the dteroit lions and st louis rams arent going to have qbs at the top of their board. Neither will the pittsburgh steelers or the ravens.

The steelers and the ravens dont get the best player in the draft every year either. Although they did in 2004 (steelers) and 2008 (ravens). Markice pouncey isnt going to be the best player in the draft. probably near the top of the steeler board, but not going to be the best player.

TACKLE
06-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Its not ridiculous if its never happened in at least the last 20 years. Its never happened, a corner or dt has never been the best player in any draft

Well three DT's have been taken #1 overall in the last 20 years so...

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 09:58 PM
Its not ridiculous if its never happened in at least the last 20 years. Its never happened, a corner or dt has never been the best player in any draft

AGAIN it has happened...ngata and sapp....suh will soon follow.

its also funny/ironic that the ONLY 2 defensive players to win one of the 2 major and most distinquished college football awards just soo happen to be from positions that are currently under attack from bce....woodson/heisman and suh/maxwell...lol

bce
06-28-2010, 10:08 PM
AGAIN it has happened...ngata and sapp....suh will soon follow.

its also funny/ironic that the ONLY 2 defensive players to win one of the 2 major and most distinquished college football awards just soo happen to be from positions that are currently under attack from bce....woodson/heisman and suh/maxwell...lol


Thats certainly debatable. Now try to debate peyton manning wasnt the best player in his draft, or tom brady, or ben roethlisberger or drew brees or aaron rodgers. or lawrence taylor, or bruce smith. You may be able to find one debate point. Eli manning over ben but the numbers dont bear that out.

Do you understand now or are you just going to state opinion. if youre going to make statements, back them up. Ive already provided my reasons why you are incorrect, now provide me with reasons why youre right and maybe i'll listen, but opinion is just opinion. Tell me why warren sapp is the the higher value than curtis martin or terrel davis or why haloti ngata is the higher value than jay cutler or maurice jones drew.

roscoesdad27
06-28-2010, 10:12 PM
Thats certainly debatable. Now try to debate peyton manning wasnt the best player in his draft, or tom brady, or ben roethlisberger or drew brees or aaron rodgers. or lawrence taylor, or bruce smith. You may be able to find one debate point. Eli manning over ben but the numbers dont bear that out.

Do you understand now or are you just going to state opinion. if youre going to make statements, back them up. Ive already provided my reasons why you are incorrect, now provide me with reasons why youre right and maybe i'll listen, but opinion is just opinion. Tell me why warren sapp is the the higher value than curtis martin or terrel davis or why haloti ngata is the higher value than jay cutler or maurice jones drew.


lol...woodson and suh being the only 2 defensive players to win either the heisman or maxwell isnt opinion homeboy thus making the rest of this post an irrelevant rant!

a wise man told me dont argue with fools, cause people from a distance cant tell who's who!

bce
06-28-2010, 10:33 PM
College awards are irrelevant. Gino toretta won the heisman, so did andre ware

And since charles woodson was in the same draft as peyton manning hes not the #1 player, not even remotely close

bce
06-28-2010, 10:40 PM
fred taylor, randy moss, hines ward

jsa230
06-28-2010, 11:33 PM
Tell me why haloti ngata is the higher value than jay cutler

a9lIvnAr01Q

bored of education
06-29-2010, 10:01 AM
but gaiz those were not his faultz

AntoinCD
06-29-2010, 10:15 AM
fred taylor, randy moss, hines ward

Did you just say Hines Ward is a better player than Charles Woodson?

prock
06-29-2010, 02:06 PM
and nose tackles. Isnt haloti ngata a nose tackle kind of?

You don't even know what position the guy plays, and you are arguing about him. Good one.

bce
06-29-2010, 05:51 PM
Did you just say Hines Ward is a better player than Charles Woodson?

I think its certainly debatable, but either way, charles woodson isnt the #1 player. How many super bowl rings does charles woodson have?

0 thats why you dont pick them high in the draft. low position value.

bce
06-29-2010, 05:53 PM
You don't even know what position the guy plays, and you are arguing about him. Good one.


according to our resident ravnes expert roscoes dad he does play nose tackle at times. Ive seen it myself and hes built much more like shawn rodgers than ndumkong suh. He has more of a nose tackle body, would you not agree.

prock
06-29-2010, 10:13 PM
according to our resident ravnes expert roscoes dad he does play nose tackle at times. Ive seen it myself and hes built much more like shawn rodgers than ndumkong suh. He has more of a nose tackle body, would you not agree.

What does his body type matter? He doesn't play like his body type. He plays like a guy who is 50 pounds lighter and a whole lot weaker, only on a nose tackles body. He is a top 3 defensive lineman in the game.

BigDawg819
07-03-2010, 09:25 PM
I think its certainly debatable, but either way, charles woodson isnt the #1 player. How many super bowl rings does charles woodson have?

0 thats why you dont pick them high in the draft. low position value.

You are nothing more then a freaking moronic troll who has such a low fan IQ its appalling. Super Bowls do not make a player better. With your rational then Jim Kelly and Dan Marino are worse QB's then Trent Dilfer and Tony Banks who not only won a Super Bowl but were on the same team.

bce
07-03-2010, 09:28 PM
actually my iq 132. 36 wonderlic taken in a work environment. And i never said trent dilfer or tony bamks was better than dan marino. Nor did i say that winning one super bowl makes them better than dan marino.

But winning 4 super bowls does.

Sniper
07-03-2010, 09:34 PM
bce, what does your name stand for? Also, how did the name Starheather come to be?

RealityCheck
07-03-2010, 09:37 PM
actually my iq 132.
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/zerosignal/Decorated%20images/implied-facepalm.jpg

bce
07-03-2010, 09:38 PM
The answer to the first question is its none of your concern and the answer to the second question is i dont know what on gods green earth you are talking about.

bce
07-03-2010, 09:40 PM
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/zerosignal/Decorated%20images/implied-facepalm.jpg

Unfortunately for you its the truth. No prep either i didnt even know i was going to be taking it.

BigDawg819
07-03-2010, 09:57 PM
actually my iq 132. 36 wonderlic taken in a work environment. And i never said trent dilfer or tony bamks was better than dan marino. Nor did i say that winning one super bowl makes them better than dan marino.

But winning 4 super bowls does.

Atrocious grammar

Horrible spelling

Talks out the side of your neck

Nope pretty sure you are just a liar who trolls internet forums.

RealityCheck
07-03-2010, 10:07 PM
Unfortunately for you its the truth. No prep either i didnt even know i was going to be taking it.
The reasons BigDawg cited just show that you're a liar.

bce
07-03-2010, 10:26 PM
I know it hurts doesnt it

prock
07-04-2010, 12:53 AM
actually my iq 132. 36 wonderlic taken in a work environment. And i never said trent dilfer or tony bamks was better than dan marino. Nor did i say that winning one super bowl makes them better than dan marino.

But winning 4 super bowls does.

You can't even form proper sentences or spell worth a damn. I IZ REAL SMARTZ GAIZZZZ!!! I has an iq 132!!!!!!! I iz a genious!!!

Good try.