Barry or Emmitt: Oldie but Goodie

[J-Mike88]

This topic has surely been covered on here before, but it still brings out strong arguments on both sides, and often passionate ones.

It will definitely rile up Cowboy Nation here. But since it's the middle of the down-season, let's have at it because like me, there are a lot of newcomers here to this debate.

Barry Sanders > Emmitt Smith, without question
Dallas Cowboys > Detroit Lions, without question

Jimmy Johnson > Wayne Fontes
Barry Switzer > Wayne Fontes
Troy Aikman > Eric Kramer
Troy Aikman > Scott Mitchell
Dallas OL > Detroit OL
Michael Irvin > Herman Moore
Jay Novacek > Lions had no TE

Emmitt was 5-9, 210. Barry was 5-8, 203.
I find that interesting because NOW the scouts, scout-wannabe's, and guru's on TV call guys that size "undersized" and not every-day down backs coming out of college at that size.


(From 1997)"I guess I look at this as being pretty simple," Franco Harris says. "When you look at the pure runner for ability and style, I think Barry is the best. But when you have to go with a running back who can be the complete running back -- receiving, blocking and running -- I feel Emmitt might be the guy, although Thurman Thomas might be the best all-purpose back of them all. That's the only way I can separate the two (Barry and Emmitt), and if I was putting a team together and had my pick, it would depend on what I was looking for at the time."

"There are times when I'm watching Barry Sanders and I think the bottom is just going to fall out of that guy," Tony Dorsett says. "The way he springs forward and stops, backs up and takes off -- I sit back and say to myself, 'How long are those knees going to take that kind of beating on that turf?' But it doesn't seem to bother him. He just keeps going. The man can contort his body more than anybody I've ever seen."

(1996) Smith lost points in this battle last season, when his offensive linemen showed signs of wear and age and Smith's yards-per-carry average dropped from 4.7 in 1995 to 3.7. Sure, it breaks the no-statistics pledge, but that one is too telling to avoid.

"Here's what I see," Jim Brown says. "Emmitt is a great player in a great system, a system that suits him perfectly. He is a hell of a warrior, and he fits into the Dallas scheme better than anybody."

But after that talented bit of fence-straddling, and after being sure to say he means no disrespect to anybody, Brown was more forthcoming. "As far as a pure running back is concerned," he says, "Barry Sanders is the most talented running back in the game. On the other hand, if you're Dallas, I don't think you'd get rid of Emmitt for anybody."



Gale Sayers: "I wish Barry had a better line to run behind. I'd like to see what would happen then. Many times when you see him, he's making moves behind the line of scrimmage, trying to get away. A lot of times Emmitt isn't touched until he's five yards past the line. When Barry's five yards into the secondary, he's gone. People talk about whether Barry can gain 2,000 yards in a season. Well, if he had Dallas' line, we'd be asking how many years he'd be gaining 2,000 yards. Look at his stats now: He's gaining 1,500 or 1,600 yards anyway. I think Emmitt is a good second-effort runner, a strong runner, but I'll go with Barry." :UPDATE, Barry of course, DID break the 2000-yard barrier after that article was written.

Jim Brown: "I don't think Barry's ever been used properly, but that's a different story. If I had my pick of anybody in the league, and I was picking in terms of talent -- maybe not even winning and losing games, but just pure talent -- I'd take Barry. He's the most talented running back in the NFL."

Earl Campbell: "Barry goes out there on pure guts, knowing he doesn't have a great offensive line, knowing he doesn't have a fullback in front of him. He goes out there every Sunday, without any flamboyance, to say one thing: 'I am the best.'"

Tony Dorsett: "Anyone who has watched the Lions since Barry has been there can say the scheme does not use his talents to their fullest advantage."

Harris and Dorsett stayed neutral, but both attested to Sander's superiority as a pure running back. Brown and Campbell attempted to stay neutral, but both ended up making at least a partial case for Sanders. Sayers came out squarely in favor of Sanders.

"If you add everything up, Barry Sanders is the running back who is Mr. Everything," Campbell says. "It's unfortunate that in the sports world it always has to be a case of one guy being better, because it's impossible to call Emmitt Smith a loser at anything."

#Emmitt on that star-studded Cowboys team: 8-time Pro Bowler & 4-time First-Team All-Pro
#Barry on that star-studded Lions team: 10-time Pro Bowler & 6-time First-Team All-Pro

STATISTIC-CRUNCHER
Emmitt played 15 seasons. Should we compare-count his final 5 years, 2 of which were stinkers in Arizona and the final 3 were sub-1000 yard seasons?

In Emmitt's final 5 years, he only had 1 year with an average carry of more than 3.9 yards, and that was a pedestrian 4.1 average in his 5th-to-last-season when he averaged 75 yards a game.


I think the fairest would be compare each's first 10 remarkable Hall-of-Fame material seasons -The complete duration that Barry was in the league.

I remember a Monday night game between the two of these guys in about 1994 Detroit @ Dallas, and even Emmitt said at the time that Barry is the best.

Emmitt, first 10 seasons

155 games
3243 carries
13,963 yards
1,396 yards per season
90.08 yards per game
4.3 yards per carry
*136 TD rushes

*442 catches
2728 yards receiving
6.17 yards per catch
*11 TD catches

Total fumbles 45

Sanders, first 10 seasons

153 games
3062 carries
*15,269 yards
*1,527 yards per season
*99.8 yards per game
*5.0 yards per carry
99 TD rushes

352 catches
*2921 yards receiving
*8.3 yards per catch
10 TD catches

*Total fumbles 41

Now remember, when defenses played the Lions, all 11 sets of defensive eyes were focused on Sanders at the start of each & every play.
Opposing defenses had nightmares the night before facing Barry Sanders.
We know it as Packer fans who had to play him twice a season.

When teams played Dallas, they had to defend Hall of Fame QB Troy Aikman and Hall of Fame WR Michael Irvin, as well as Pro Bowl TE Jay Novacek, and faster than crap WR Alvin Harper. You might remember him beating Terrell Buckley for long TDs. And all behind a great OL and brilliant coach in Johnson.

We Packer fans also know that Emmitt sometimes killed us, but so did Irvin, Harper, and their defense.
They beat us (good teams with Favre, Reggie, Sharpe) without Emmitt once. They beat us without Aikman once. That's how great that Cowboy team was.

Opposing defenses playing Dallas had to worry about a lot more than just #22.

I agree with the stats, with Sayers, and Jim Brown. This is an easy decision.

Emmitt Smith was straight A's, which is awesome.
Barry Sanders was straight A+'s and was the class valedictorian.

Now, that's my take.
Who ya got, and why?

[Brent]

hsFhZy9oxuk

In his prime? Barry Sanders. The guy had ******* no one to help him. At least Emmitt had a couple HoFers around him.

[GB12]

Is this really up for debate? I thought it was almost fact that Sanders was better than Smith.

[Rosebud]

hsFhZy9oxuk

In his prime? Barry Sanders. The guy had ******* no one to help him. At least Emmitt had a couple HoFers around him.

Emmitt did have a couple...************ had a hall of fame OL his whole career that's enough to make any RB a monster even before the HoF QB throwing to a HoF WR. Those cowboys were disgustingly talented.

[Shiver]

Wait. This is a debate? Since when? Only the most obnoxious of Cowboys' homers would say it was Emmitt Smith.

[Ward]

Emmitt did have a couple...************ had a hall of fame OL his whole career that's enough to make any RB a monster even before the HoF QB throwing to a HoF WR. Those cowboys were disgustingly talented.

Who from that OL is in the HOF? Larren Allen is the only lock, and that's yet to happen.

[djp]

Barry Sanders is the greatest runner I have ever seen in person after 15 years of going to Vikings games in person. The guy was insane.

[E-Man]

Ahhhh. Those two definitely were cream of the crop. You can't go wrong picking either guy because they both were extremely skilled at what they did. There does seem to be some mythology with both though. Barry had more help than people think. Herman Moore was definitely no slouch. He once broke a record for most catches in a season, and him and Brett Perriman were the first receiving duo to ever catch 100 passes in a year together. That year Perriman and Moore combined for 231 catches for 3174 yards while Barry got 1500 yards and 11 TDs. That's some serious offensive power!

He also played with two pretty damn good linemen in Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover. People act like Barry juked all 11 guys on defense every time he got the ball. The NFL is not a video game. There is no way in hell you can have a trash offensive line and do the things that Barry did. Defenses are too good, and they'd penetrate and stop any run before it started. Barry was a phenomenal back, but he's not some cheat code. People get carried away with highlights too often. Barry had his ups and downs like any great runner. He sometimes danced too much and missed assigned holes. He was one of the greatest players I've ever seen play, but he wasn't some untouchable guy that could score a touchdown at will. If that was the case he would have gotten a ring because nobody could touch him at all. You'd just hand the ball off to Barry and let him score 4 touchdowns Al Bundy style.

Now the Emmitt myth is pretty dumb. People talk about he was only good because of his line, and that's just ******** because there is only so much that you could do with a great line. It's harder to find holes than people know, and on top of that people ignore how Emmitt consistently broke tackles or got an extra two yards because of perseverance. He may not have been the most physically gifted guy like Ricky Williams, but his game intellect and well rounded athleticism let him do some great things. He also had two great years when his line wasn't as great as it used to be in 1998 and 1999. Hell Clay freaking Shiver was the starting center, and Flozell was a rookie in 98, but Emmitt still got 5th in the league rushing and 4th in rushing TDs. Emmitt was 29 at the time too, so you have an older runner with an older offensive line with weaknesses being an elite runner in the game.

Another thing to keep in mind was that Emmitt always played in a much better division than Barry did. The NFC East in the 90s was much better than the NFC Central, and during the Super Bowl runs the Cowboys always played the best of teams. To be the best you have to play the best, and the Cowboys played and beat some seriously stacked teams such as the 49ers, Bills, and Packers. In many of those games Emmitt was who the Cowboys gave the ball to in crunch time. When one of the greatest teams of all time needed a win, who did they go to? Emmitt Smith! Not just handing him the ball off and holding a lead, but also going to him in the passing game as well. Emmitt is one of, if not the best, big game backs to ever play the game. He showed up on the biggest stage and made the crucial plays that make people legends. When they say that big players make big plays in big games, Emmitt is the prototype of that ****. Where was Barry in the playoffs against great teams? His playoff career is pretty mediocre, and it's not like Detroit never gave him a chance either. Detroit made the playoffs five times while Barry was playing, yet in six games Barry only has 3 touchdowns. Seriously, that's only 3 damn touchdowns in six games.

Meanwhile Emmitt has pretty much every postseason record there is. 19 rushing touchdowns, most 100 yard games with 7, and he's tied with Thurman Thomas for most total TDs in the postseason with 21. An excuse for this would be that Emmitt got more chances to play in the postseason, and you're right about that. Of course, one would certainly see that Emmitt's stellar postseason record is a large part of the reason why he had so many more chances to help his team win. On a team of great Hall of Famers Emmitt was the guy they gave the rock to in crucial times. He made his team better because of it, yet Barry Sanders only scored 3 times when his team really needed it. What does this say about both backs?

Barry had one of the most prolific passing tandems in 1995 to go along with his stellar season of 1500 yards and 11 TDs, and he had two Pro Bowl lineman opening up holes for him. What did his team do with that good array of talent? They got smashed by the Eagles in the first round while Barry had 40 yards on 10 carries and 2 catches for 19 yards. That same year Emmitt scored 5 TDs in a Super Bowl winning postseason, including having crucial scores against the Packers and Eagles that ultimately help them win. When you look at these two, Emmitt is clearly the winner. Coming up big when your team needs it is the most crucial thing a player can do.

[Nalej]

haha 22-0 @ Barry Sanders vs Emmitt Smith

[Stash]

Wait. This is a debate? Since when? Only the most obnoxious of Cowboys' homers would say it was Emmitt Smith.
There's a perfect example 3 posts below yours.

[Bengals78]

Call the guys from Deadliest Warrior for this one.

[Monomach]

There isn't a debate here. The poll is pointless. The only people I've heard claim Smith was better were Cowboy fans. Even casual fans know Sanders was head and shoulders above Smith.

Not sure I like how you phrased the question, though. If I'm starting a dream team, there's zero chance that my first pick goes to one of these guys.

[Monomach]

Ahhhh. Those two definitely were cream of the crop. You can't go wrong picking either guy because they both were extremely skilled at what they did. There does seem to be some mythology with both though. Barry had more help than people think. Herman Moore was definitely no slouch. He once broke a record for most catches in a season, and him and Brett Perriman were the first receiving duo to ever catch 100 passes in a year together. That year Perriman and Moore combined for 231 catches for 3174 yards while Barry got 1500 yards and 11 TDs. That's some serious offensive power!

He also played with two pretty damn good linemen in Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover. People act like Barry juked all 11 guys on defense every time he got the ball. The NFL is not a video game. There is no way in hell you can have a trash offensive line and do the things that Barry did. Defenses are too good, and they'd penetrate and stop any run before it started. Barry was a phenomenal back, but he's not some cheat code. People get carried away with highlights too often. Barry had his ups and downs like any great runner. He sometimes danced too much and missed assigned holes. He was one of the greatest players I've ever seen play, but he wasn't some untouchable guy that could score a touchdown at will. If that was the case he would have gotten a ring because nobody could touch him at all. You'd just hand the ball off to Barry and let him score 4 touchdowns Al Bundy style.

Now the Emmitt myth is pretty dumb. People talk about he was only good because of his line, and that's just ******** because there is only so much that you could do with a great line. It's harder to find holes than people know, and on top of that people ignore how Emmitt consistently broke tackles or got an extra two yards because of perseverance. He may not have been the most physically gifted guy like Ricky Williams, but his game intellect and well rounded athleticism let him do some great things. He also had two great years when his line wasn't as great as it used to be in 1998 and 1999. Hell Clay freaking Shiver was the starting center, and Flozell was a rookie in 98, but Emmitt still got 5th in the league rushing and 4th in rushing TDs. Emmitt was 29 at the time too, so you have an older runner with an older offensive line with weaknesses being an elite runner in the game.

Another thing to keep in mind was that Emmitt always played in a much better division than Barry did. The NFC East in the 90s was much better than the NFC Central, and during the Super Bowl runs the Cowboys always played the best of teams. To be the best you have to play the best, and the Cowboys played and beat some seriously stacked teams such as the 49ers, Bills, and Packers. In many of those games Emmitt was who the Cowboys gave the ball to in crunch time. When one of the greatest teams of all time needed a win, who did they go to? Emmitt Smith! Not just handing him the ball off and holding a lead, but also going to him in the passing game as well. Emmitt is one of, if not the best, big game backs to ever play the game. He showed up on the biggest stage and made the crucial plays that make people legends. When they say that big players make big plays in big games, Emmitt is the prototype of that ****. Where was Barry in the playoffs against great teams? His playoff career is pretty mediocre, and it's not like Detroit never gave him a chance either. Detroit made the playoffs five times while Barry was playing, yet in six games Barry only has 3 touchdowns. Seriously, that's only 3 damn touchdowns in six games.

Meanwhile Emmitt has pretty much every postseason record there is. 19 rushing touchdowns, most 100 yard games with 7, and he's tied with Thurman Thomas for most total TDs in the postseason with 21. An excuse for this would be that Emmitt got more chances to play in the postseason, and you're right about that. Of course, one would certainly see that Emmitt's stellar postseason record is a large part of the reason why he had so many more chances to help his team win. On a team of great Hall of Famers Emmitt was the guy they gave the rock to in crucial times. He made his team better because of it, yet Barry Sanders only scored 3 times when his team really needed it. What does this say about both backs?

Barry had one of the most prolific passing tandems in 1995 to go along with his stellar season of 1500 yards and 11 TDs, and he had two Pro Bowl lineman opening up holes for him. What did his team do with that good array of talent? They got smashed by the Eagles in the first round while Barry had 40 yards on 10 carries and 2 catches for 19 yards. That same year Emmitt scored 5 TDs in a Super Bowl winning postseason, including having crucial scores against the Packers and Eagles that ultimately help them win. When you look at these two, Emmitt is clearly the winner. Coming up big when your team needs it is the most crucial thing a player can do.

You're funny.

[GB12]

You're funny.

I'm impressed you took the time to read that.

[DoughBoy]

Who is the idiot that voted for Emmit?

[DoughBoy]

o wait. lol

[E-Man]

There's a perfect example 3 posts below yours.

You're funny.

Did I make up anything in my post? Can you explain to me how Emmitt is not on Barry's level when he has far more touchdowns in the postseason and in his career? Everybody always talks about making big plays in big games, but that's ignored when it comes to Emmitt's career. How is that being obnoxious when people claim that Emmitt isn't on Barry's level when his postseason career blows Barry's out the water?

[VUBlacknGold]

Did I make up anything in my post? Can you explain to me how Emmitt is not on Barry's level when he has far more touchdowns in the postseason and in his career? Everybody always talks about making big plays in big games, but that's ignored when it comes to Emmitt's career. How is that being obnoxious when people claim that Emmitt isn't on Barry's level when his postseason career blows Barry's out the water?

Postseason Play Means good play threw out the whole team, those Lions teams had a horrible defense while those Dallas teams had more talent on D, hence how Larry Brown can be considered good. Were not sayin Smith is a bad RB, were just sayin that Barry was everything he shoudlve been plus more, He made the WR better on his team. How many RB can say they open up the passing game? I cant say for sure cause i only watched highlights from his days but hey, Emmitt was great but theres a reason Barry is considered one of if not the Greatest

[Shahin]

Barry and it isn't close.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I'd pick Sanders before any runner in history without a second thought. So yeah...it's Barry.

[VUBlacknGold]

I'd pick Sanders before any runner in history without a second thought. So yeah...it's Barry.

For me its Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Barry Sanders. I literally cant choose between those 3

[prock]

My top 5 running backs of all time go Sanders, Brown, and then it doesn't even matter. Sanders and it isn't a question. There would be a little more debate if it went Brown vs Sanders, but Emmitt wasn't on Sanders' level.

[Splat]

Barry and it's not even close to be close, I don't even have Smith in the top five.

[CJSchneider]

Having been around to watch both guys in their prime, I can tell you, equivocally, it was Barry Sanders.

[YAYareaRB]

God imagine if Barry wasn't playing for a UFL team

[McBain]

Emmitt Smith was no slouch.

But i couldn't name any of the Lions offensive line in the 90s without looking it up. I can think of three of 90s Cowboys just off the top of my head.

[bored of education]

Emmitt Thomas <<< Eric Berry

[EvilMonkey]

http://chroniclesofdad.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/barrysanders.jpg

[descendency]

Barry Sanders was so elusive, he eluded his own blockers.

Some people seem to remember the positive with Barry. He was a 20 yard play one play and a -15 the next. I'd take Emmitt "I debacled 3rd grade" Smith.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Some people seem to remember the positive with Barry. He was a 20 yard play one play and a -15 the next. I'd take Emmitt "I debacled 3rd grade" Smith.

And yet Sanders averaged almost 400 more yards per season than Smith did.

The whole negative yard thing really depends on which part of Sanders' career you're talking about. That offensive line got a bit better as he got older and he tended to be more willing to accept the small gain rather than always try and break it outside. Early on though, it's astonishing how many plays were blown up before he even reached the LOS. Would it have been smarter to just take a loss of 2-4 yards rather than evade the first tacklers and potentially loose more? Considering how many touchdowns he manufactured with that method, I would say no.

[Notredameleo]

Sanders, without a doubt!

[iowatreat54]

I don't know what surprises me more, that Barry is winning by so much or that 4 people voted for Emmitt.

At it's simplest argument, stick Barry on those Cowboy teams and he shatters the rushing record in like 10 seasons.

<3 Barry Sanders. My first ever football jersey and the only football cards I've kept.

[CJSchneider]

Emmitt Smith was no slouch.

But i couldn't name any of the Lions offensive line in the 90s without looking it up. I can think of three of 90s Cowboys just off the top of my head.

Lomas Brown is the only one I can name, and that is only because we both wore #75.

[LonghornsLegend]

I feel lucky to have even been privileged enough to watch and remember Barry Sanders. It was amazing to see what he did at OK State but he was even more incredible in the NFL. It's not a knock to say Emmitt wasn't better then Barry, Barry was just ridiculous, and I doubt we see another Rb ever do some of the uncanny things he was able to do on a football field.


People talked about how he used to lose yards sometimes, but if he had a line to consistently gain yardage with that may have not been the case.


I wish Barry didn't retire so soon, but that makes his legacy even better. He's got his health, he's not limping around unable to play with his children, and he proved that racking up useless stats really wasn't important to him. Alot of rumors were that he didn't even want the fame or spotlight that would of came with breaking the all-time rushing record, and to be honest I think there is little doubt from anyone that he would have broken that record before Emmitt did on a far worse team.

[dannyz]

It has to be Sanders. Imagine if he would have a a good Offensive Line he would have broken the record and more.

[yourfavestoner]

I think a much more interesting argument is who is better between Dickerson, Payton, and Smith.

[njx9]

I think a much more interesting argument is who is better between Dickerson, Payton, and Smith.

when so few people have even seen sanders play, i can't imagine that would be a very intriguing debate. lots of numbers, little substantive.

[Shahin]

I think a much more interesting argument is who is better between Dickerson, Payton, and Smith.

personally i'd say Payton.

[niel89]

Barry Sander is my first pack

[Halsey]

Emmitt Smith had amazing longetivity and durability, but if we're just talking in their primes it's gotta be Sanders.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Payton and Barry are my two alltime fave RBs. No doubt Emmitt is a great RB, but Sanders did things on a football that NO RB has ever done.

His ability to stop, pivot, swirl and explode, just unreal. I've never seen a player who had the balance of Barry Sanders, or the axis to move in virtually any direction seemingly at will.

I've seen Sanders go full speed, stop, jump backwards out of a potential tackle, cut and spin running for daylight.

NFL RBs aren't supposed to do the things Sanders could do.

[Brent]

I think a much more interesting argument is who is better between Dickerson, Payton, and Smith.when so few people have even seen sanders play, i can't imagine that would be a very intriguing debate. lots of numbers, little substantive.
yeah that would ended up worse than most our debates

[WinslowBodden]

Is this even a question?

[Michigan]

the poll results make me chuckle. barry without question.

[21ST]

Emmitt isnt even top 5 all time....

[njx9]

yeah that would ended up worse than most our debates

on the plus side, we've now had the meaningless running back debate, the best cornerback debate and a qb debate involving eli. the last thread we need before the summer silliness can end is the inevitable brady vs. peyton discussion.

[Brent]

on the plus side, we've now had the meaningless running back debate, the best cornerback debate and a qb debate involving eli. the last thread we need before the summer silliness can end is the inevitable brady vs. peyton discussion.
but what about Rivers and Brees?!?!?!?!1one


I would actually like to see a Best Center or Best Punter thread; Possibly Best Long Snapper.

[BigDawg819]

but what about Rivers and Brees?!?!?!?!1one


I would actually like to see a Best Center or Best Punter thread; Possibly Best Long Snapper.

Ray Guy

Thats why there is no thread or discussion. Thats the only punter over the course of NFL history that stands out. He was a force in his day. IMO the only punter who could merit any discussion would be Jeff Feagles and still Ray Guy was the better athlete. Jeff's only weapon is pinning opponents inside the 20, which is crucial for a punter, but Guy's hang time allowed his team the opportunity to pin teams deep regardless. Feagles is the master of the "coffin corner" punt, but Guy's merits and skill in hang time are unmatched.

On second thought, maybe Shane Lechter could be in the discussion as well.

Back on the topic at hand, there should be no doubt that Barry was the far superior back on both the college and pro levels. He did more with less better then any back. Emmitt was the perfect back in the perfect system, as stated. The reason there is no "real" debate is if you swapped them Barry destroys records whereas Emmitt is probably at best a decent back with respectable production.

[yourfavestoner]

Emmitt isnt even top 5 all time....

Eh, that depends. After Jim Brown, I think it's pretty much interchangeable. Depending on what you like in a runningback, you could see any combination of OJ Simpson, Eric Dickerson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Emmitt Smith. You can't go wrong with any of those guys.

It's a shame to think of how good Bo Jackson could have been had injuries not derailed his career. Or Earl Campbell, who is the only person other than Jim Brown to lead the league in rushing for three consecutive years.

[Bengalsrocket]

Eh, that depends. After Jim Brown, I think it's pretty much interchangeable. Depending on what you like in a runningback, you could see any combination of OJ Simpson, Eric Dickerson, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, and Emmitt Smith. You can't go wrong with any of those guys.

It's a shame to think of how good Bo Jackson could have been had injuries not derailed his career. Or Earl Campbell, who is the only person other than Jim Brown to lead the league in rushing for three consecutive years.

I don't want to turn this into a "top 5 all time RB" discussion, but I don't know how people think Smith could beat out Simpson, Dickerson, Sanders, Brown or Payton on all time list.

I think your top 5 pretty much has to be some order of Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson, Simpson (and yes, that is my order - though I think Dickerson could go ahead of Payton if someone wanted to argue that).

What Smith's team accomplished was great, and no one can take that away from him. However, on an individual level his talent just doesn't stack up to these guys in my opinion.

Maybe I just don't appreciate the big "cowbell" back as much as some other people. Or maybe I'm giving to much credit to the rest of Smith's team. There are a million different variables to consider when trying to rank players, but I can't find one that allows me to believe Smith should be in the top 5.

[regoob2]

I've always thought Sanders was a bit overrated and I was a huge Cowboys fan as a kid when they both were playing but why is this even up for debate? It's Barry Sanders hands down.

[BeerBaron]

Sorry if this was said already, but when comparing two players, I always like to try and figure out how they'd do if their places were switched.

Barry Sanders probably would have rushed for 3000 yards when that Cowboys offense was rolling in its prime. And I don't even feel like that is much of an exaggeration.....

Emmitt would have just "another guy" on that Lions team. Maybe would have had a couple of decent seasons but not much else.

And back to Barry...if he wasn't dodging guys trying to run through holes that weren't there, those negative plays wouldn't have been happening nearly as much either.

[J-Mike88]

I think a much more interesting argument is who is better between Dickerson, Payton, and Smith.
Good call.
I'll take Sweetness in a heartbeat. And this from a Packer fan.

[FUNBUNCHER]

No matter what team Emmitt Smith played for, I don't think he would have been a JAG.

Even with the Lions, I think you're looking at a 12000 yard career rusher. Watching Emmitt annually rip the SKins a new a@@hole twice a year, I can say with absolute certainty that his game speed was underrated, as was his ability to dip his shoulder and drive on a tackler.
His vision was second to none, and he ran with no wasted movement or dancing.

I personally can't put Dickerson or OJ ahead of Emmitt on any list of best RBs. Those guys combined couldn't approach the toughness or durability of Emmitt Smith.
I can't get past his pure determination for the endzone or his career production.

Emmitt may not have been the most physically gifted RB to ever play the game, but like Jerry Rice, he excelled at a level no other player ever has at his position in the NFL.

Look, my fave Dallas RB alltime was Tony Dorsett, (a faster, quicker RB who could break a DB's ankles), but he's not Emmitt Smith.

[descendency]

Ray Guy

Thats why there is no thread or discussion.

Yea, He is the only punter to ever be taken in the first round (in the history of the NFL) and is the only punter regarded as a draft steal (by Fox-sports "top 10 steals of all time")

If you can find a punter who is a draft steal, let me know... because Ray Guy is a top the short list of punters.

[descendency]

And yet Sanders averaged almost 400 more yards per season than Smith did.

The whole negative yard thing really depends on which part of Sanders' career you're talking about. That offensive line got a bit better as he got older and he tended to be more willing to accept the small gain rather than always try and break it outside. Early on though, it's astonishing how many plays were blown up before he even reached the LOS. Would it have been smarter to just take a loss of 2-4 yards rather than evade the first tacklers and potentially loose more? Considering how many touchdowns he manufactured with that method, I would say no.

His biggest problem is that he couldn't accept the small gain. But if you ask me who the greatest scat back of all time is, Barry Sanders would be the guy they name the trophy after. The fact that Barry was a good running back in the other "formations" is merely a statement to his greatness. It's hard for me to accept that the pole is so one sided. I might agree that Sanders was the better running back in his prime... but seriously? This poll is a beat down. I imagine it's 6 cowboys fans and me voting for Emmitt. (and I hate the Cowboys)

I'm really not sure how to answer this. On one hand, Barry Sanders was the only thing Detroit had in his prime. Emmitt was just one of the weapons in that offense. So obviously the passing game which featured a QB who is regarded as one of the greatest of all time by most. At the same time, Barry was targeted on every play... by the offense and defense. I don't know which I like more.

But I find it hard to believe the poll is this one sided.

[Calvin & Kevin]

No, Barry wasn't the only thing the Lions had. For at least four years of his career, they had a great passing attack (which was mostly because of all the room Barry opened up for it), featuring Herman Moore, Brett Perriman and Jonnie Morton. In 1995 the Lions had a 4,000 yard passer and three receivers with over 1,000 yards receiving, in addition to Barry going over 1,600 yards rushing.

The Lions also had a very underrated offensive line with All-Pros Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover, but they were a pass-block-first line. Barry still should get credit for being a one-man weapon since the Lions were a pass-designed team nearly his whole career, first with a June Jones run-n-shoot and then a Tom Moore singleback, three-wide offense. Not until the last three years of his career did he have a tight end and fullback almost at all.

Emmitt was a great back he had power balance and vision, but Barry had all that plus a bag of moves deeper than any other football player ever except (they say) Gale Sayers.

Barry 112, Emmitt 7 - says it all.

[Nalej]

I'd take Marshall Faulk over Emmitt Smith if we're talking top 5 of all time

[Halsey]

People take Emmitt's durability for granted. He combined for like 5,000 runs and catches. That's a talent. There's lots of great backs that couldn't handle the load Emmitt took. Emmitt holds the NFL record with 4,409 career rushing attempt. The next most is Payton with 3, 838. Payton was beaten down by the end of his career. Emmitt went on to win a dance contest. :D

And not many RBs have more than Emmitt's 500+ career receptions.

[BigDawg819]

People take Emmitt's durability for granted. He combined for like 5,000 runs and catches. That's a talent. There's lots of great backs that couldn't handle the load Emmitt took. Emmitt holds the NFL record with 4,409 career rushing attempt. The next most is Payton with 3, 838. Payton was beaten down by the end of his career. Emmitt went on to win a dance contest. :D

And not many RBs have more than Emmitt's 500+ career receptions.

Herschel Walker
Eric Metcalf
LaDainian Tomlinson
Warrick Dunn
Earnest Byner
Roger Craig
Tiki Barber
Marcus Allen
Keith Byars
Marshall Faulk
Larry Centers (as a fullback)

And Emmitt never did anything worthwhile without the Cowboys line period. He was a product of the system, right place right time deal. He's great for excelling but doesn't mean he's the greatest or in the discussion.

Its like in baseball, Roger Maris held the single season HR record but that doesn't mean he was the best homerun hitter of all time.

[FUNBUNCHER]

As a Skins fan, I have a reflexive dislike of ALL things Dallas, but to say that Emmitt Smith was the product of a 'system' or the Dallas Oline, is outrageous!!!

I guess he's nothing special because he wasn't a pro bowl runner with the Cardinals at the age of 34!!!LOL

Emmitt Smith was one of the greatest prep backs in the history of South Florida, and as a true freshman in his first game as a starter against Alabama, he gained 224 yards.

He's been a superstar from the minute he picked up a football, and Dallas didn't 'make' Emmitt Smith, no more than being a Cowboy made Aikman a great QB or Michael Irvin a great WR.

I posted a link to an SI article from 1987 chronicling Emmitt's freshman year, since most around here never saw Emmitt play in college.

The difficulty in defining Emmitt's running style is that it's not distinctive; he's not the quickest, but was quick enough, and he wasn't the fastest, even though he routinely outran defenders to the endzone.

A quote from the 1987 SI article after the Alabama game;

"He didn't look especially fast or powerful or blindingly deceptive, yet he couldn't be stopped."

The thing with Emmitt was, he never looked flashy or electrifying, but when the game was over, he'd shredded an opposing defense.

Give the man his respect; it's not by accident he rushed for over 18000 yards or 164 TDs, two records you can bet will not be broken, if ever, before most around here are old men.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1066692/index.htm

[iowatreat54]

Well, as long as we're bringing college into the discussion...

Sanders' junior year > Smith's career.

But yea, Smith is a great back, no doubt. And he wasn't just a product of the system. But I honestly don't think he comes close to those numbers if he had played on just an average team. He still would have had a great, HOF career imo, but just not close to those numbers.

[Calvin & Kevin]

I don't mind saying that Emmitt could very well have had his same career with almost the same numbers behind a lesser OL or with less of an efficient offense.

He was tough, quick, durable, and a great great RB. I'd say he was on a level with Marcus Allen, OJ, Dickerson, and many other great backs.

He just has the misfortune of being compared with Barry because they were contemporary. They were the two great RBs of their prime years and so they get compared.

Emmitt had it all as a running back except top-level straight line speed. But Barry had it all, plus the speed, plus things no one else has ever had. I don't think many people in this thread, or who take Barry in this argument, are saying Emmitt wasn't great. A few might be but they're wrong. The people saying Barry was better are just stating the obvious.

It's like comparing Magic Johnson with Jordan. No one would argue Magic wasn't great, but saying he's better than Michael is just so obviously wrong.

[njx9]

But Barry had it all, plus the speed

that's not really true. barry was extremely quick, i don't think i've seen another player in any sport ever with the same stop/start ability. but he routinely got caught from behind on longer runs.

[wonderbredd24]

That OLine as a unit would be in the Hall of Fame if they worked like that... they were good enough to perform man on man blocking which is the ultimate goal for an offensive line.

It's Barry Sanders between these two, but are people seriously saying they'd take ANYONE over Jim Brown? Barry Sanders own dad wouldn't take Barry over Jim Brown. Brown is the gold standard.

5.22 yards per carry for his career (consider the fact that Chris Johnson had 5.6 last year)
Only running back in history to average 100 yards per game for his career
Never missed a game during his career

[Paranoidmoonduck]

It's pretty hard to compare Sanders to Brown. Brown was physically amazing compared to his era of football and is the most dominant runner of all-time. Sanders was, to me, the most impressive and exciting tailback of the modern era of football. The sorta of football they played are so different.

Oh and Sanders averaged 100 yard per start and had a career YPC of 5.

[wonderbredd24]

It's pretty hard to compare Sanders to Brown. Brown was physically amazing compared to his era of football and is the most dominant runner of all-time. Sanders was, to me, the most impressive and exciting tailback of the modern era of football. The sorta of football they played are so different.

Oh and Sanders averaged 100 yard per start and had a career YPC of 5.
If that makes you feel better about it, fine

Jim Brown: 118 games, 12,312 rushing yards, 104.33 yards per game

Barry Sanders: 153 games, 15,269 rushing yards, 99.79 yards per game

It's Jim Brown's world and everyone else is just living in it

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Like I said, Brown was more dominant. He managed more touchdowns in far less games and had a bit more yardage per game.

But when you're picking a dream team of guys, you have to think how they would compete with each other. Sanders survived in a modern game and Brown was clearly on a different athletic level than a lot of his competition.

[wonderbredd24]

Like I said, Brown was more dominant. He managed more touchdowns in far less games and had a bit more yardage per game.

But when you're picking a dream team of guys, you have to think how they would compete with each other. Sanders survived in a modern game and Brown was clearly on a different athletic level than a lot of his competition.
in a league where guys were trying to injure him in some dirty ways, but he never missed a game.

And yes, Jim Brown was a phenominal athlete... you don't become the best of all time if you aren't and you don't have magazine covers on SI talking about a potential comeback in the 80's when you retired in the mid 60's unless you are pretty much a God.

[tuan33]

that's not really true. barry was extremely quick, i don't think i've seen another player in any sport ever with the same stop/start ability. but he routinely got caught from behind on longer runs.

He wasn't a burner by any means like chris johnson but he still had very good speed. That man's balance was just unbelievable and his ability to start and stop on a dime. I still remember rod woodson tearing his acl when barry sanders juked him.

[Calvin & Kevin]

that's not really true. barry was extremely quick, i don't think i've seen another player in any sport ever with the same stop/start ability. but he routinely got caught from behind on longer runs.

only in the last few years of his career. maybe one of the reasons he decided to walk, he knew he wasn't the same as he had been.

i was watching a few Barry highlight reels this year and it reminded me that for at least the first four or five years of his career, he definitely had the speed. one play i saw in particular was against the Redskins, and Barry went for a long TD run down the right sideline, not only did the CB not catch him but Barry was widening the gap. that CB was Darrell Green.

[ironman4579]

in a league where guys were trying to injure him in some dirty ways, but he never missed a game.

And yes, Jim Brown was a phenominal athlete... you don't become the best of all time if you aren't and you don't have magazine covers on SI talking about a potential comeback in the 80's when you retired in the mid 60's unless you are pretty much a God.

While I do think Brown was probably the best RB of all time, you do have to understand that he was far ahead of his time as a player. Brown was able to dominate because he was the same size as most of the defensive and offensive linemen during his era, let alone LB's, and secondary players. When you can run over DT's just because of sheer size, you're going to do pretty well.

[iowatreat54]

only in the last few years of his career. maybe one of the reasons he decided to walk, he knew he wasn't the same as he had been.

i was watching a few Barry highlight reels this year and it reminded me that for at least the first four or five years of his career, he definitely had the speed. one play i saw in particular was against the Redskins, and Barry went for a long TD run down the right sideline, not only did the CB not catch him but Barry was widening the gap. that CB was Darrell Green.

Barry is on record saying that he knew he could have played many more years, but that the Lions' management relationship and the team's seemingly content to remain mediocre at best really tore away all the fun and passion he had for the game. He said that he quit because being in that environment pretty much ruined football for him.

Sure, he could have switched teams, but if you don't enjoy football anymore why would you want to keep playing?

[Halsey]

Herschel Walker
Eric Metcalf
LaDainian Tomlinson
Warrick Dunn
Earnest Byner
Roger Craig
Tiki Barber
Marcus Allen
Keith Byars
Marshall Faulk
Larry Centers (as a fullback)


I state the not many RBs have more receptions than Emmitt and your comeback is a list of 10 guys in history. Wow, I guess you showed me...

Oh, and your list isn't even accurate. Warrick Dunn had fewer catches and Eric Metcalf played WR for part of his career. So actually, you came up with a whopping 8, and I didn't check all the guys, so it might be fewer.

[Halsey]

Most people don't even remember Barry's greatest record. He still holds the record for most rushing yards in a college season, despite playing only 11 regular season games and a Bowl. I don't even think they count his Bowl game numbers from that season, and he had over 2,600. They count Bowl games now into stat totals. There are guys playing 14 games and still nobody in Div 1 has surpassed Barry's 11 game total. If Barry had played 14 games that year, it's almost certain he would have gone over 3,000. Most underappreciated record in sports.

[iowatreat54]

Most people don't even remember Barry's greatest record. He still holds the record for most rushing yards in a college season, despite playing only 11 regular season games and a Bowl. I don't even think they count his Bowl game numbers from that season, and he had over 2,600. They count Bowl games now into stat totals. There are guys playing 14 games and still nobody in Div 1 has surpassed Barry's 11 game total. If Barry had played 14 games that year, it's almost certain he would have gone over 3,000. Most underappreciated record in sports.

I brought it up briefly earlier. Greatest season of college football ever. I don't know if those records will every be broken.

I believe 3200 total yards, 39 total touchdowns, I think 5 straight 200 yard games.

I know we are talking NFL, but as I compared earlier...
Emmitt Smith's career (3 seasons): 3900 yards and 36 touchdowns.
Barry Sanders' 1988 season: 2600 yards and 37 touchdowns.

Imagine if he didn't have to sit behind Thurman Thomas for 2 seasons?

Btw, people forget the greatest feature of Barry Sanders. After every touchdown, he either dropped the ball or handed it to the ref and ran to the sidelines. After every huge gain or first down, he handed the ball to the ref and ran back to the huddle. He never liked being in the spotlight and was incredibly humble. <3 Barry Sanders.

[hockey619]

Btw, people forget the greatest feature of Barry Sanders. After every touchdown, he either dropped the ball or handed it to the ref and ran to the sidelines. After every huge gain or first down, he handed the ball to the ref and ran back to the huddle. He never liked being in the spotlight and was incredibly humble. <3 Barry Sanders.


I loved him, him and Steve Yzerman were two of the most humble guys. Barry was such a class act, so much fun to watch, and great player, Id take him over anyone.

Off topic but to the guy who said Barry has the most underappreciated record in sports:
George Hainsworth: 22 shutouts in one NHL season...that was 44 games long. Still unbroken after 80 years and seasons almost twice as long. Rediculous.

Sorry so off topic but that just blows my mind.

[nepg]

It's definitely Sanders. However, people do underrate the Moore-Perriman-Morton receiving trio...not that they had a decent QB... It's arguable that Moore & Perriman was better than any Irvin combination the Cowboys had...

[FUNBUNCHER]

It's definitely Sanders. However, people do underrate the Moore-Perriman-Morton receiving trio...not that they had a decent QB...

People don't like to say it, but in hindsight, those early Lions teams, at least on offense, were SB caliber units.
WIth a little bit better QB play, who knows what they could have accomplished??

[boknows34]

Having been around to watch both guys in their prime, I can tell you, equivocally, it was Barry Sanders.

I saw both players too for their entire careers and I totally agree. Emmitt was a great runner but Barry was simply in a class by himself.

They didn't exactly have a level playing field yet Sanders still consistently outperformed him. Smith was driving a Ferrari while Sanders was driving a Ford Mondeo. If Barry had the same good fortune to land on a winning program like a Jerry Rice or Emmitt he would have done a Usain Bolt to the record books.

Its far easier to be consistent on a great team than a mediocre team where defences can place a bullseye on you knowing there's not much of a threat coming from elsewhere. Stop Sanders and most of the time you stopped Detroit. Dallas even tried that in the '91 playoffs and got crushed when Erik Kramer had the game of his life. Smith was just one of the main cogs on a great team, a well-oiled machine. Roger Craig and Franco Harris were main cogs in great teams too and have won 3 and 4 rings respectively yet aren't anywhere near as good a player as Emmitt.

The vast majority of those with a neutral outlook will tell you Sanders was easily the superior player. Smith was great, don't get me wrong, but even he would tell you Sanders was the better player and probably the best ever. Emmitt was interviewed by Dan Patrick the day before he was announced as a HOFer. Patrick asked him if he could hand the ball off to any RB in history who would it be? His reply was 'Barry Sanders'. Not really surprising when one of the first things Emmitt did at the end of every game was to check on how Barry performed that day. He knew what the measuring stick was.

Ask yourself this. How many rushing titles, MVPs, All Pros, Super Bowl titles would Emmitt have won on the 90s Lions? Now ask yourself the same question had Emmitt been in Detroit and Sanders played in Dallas? Would Emmitt have achieved what Barry did under those circumstances? Does he average 1,500 yds per season at 5ypc for 10 years with an MVP, a 2k season, two OPOTYS and 10 All-Pros like Barry did? IMO he doesn't come close. Emmitt got dealt a royal flush and fair play he took full advantage of it. Barry in Dallas though would have been utterly ridiculous.

Every player poll during that era had Barry clearly ahead. ESPN had Barry among the 10 greatest players ever and the #2 RB behind Brown. TSN had Barry ranked #12 best player ever while Emmitt wasn't even in the Top 50.

Ask nearly all of their peers from the 1990's, the likes of Terrell Davis, Curtis Martin and Robert Smith. Ask the defenders who faced them both. Every player/executive poll I have seen from that era had Sanders a clear winner. Davis, Martin and Smith have Sanders not only better than Emmitt but as the greatest ever. Jim Brown, not one for giving out praise lightly to say the least, said Sanders was simply fantastic with ''god-given talent''


Like I said. Why not ask the NFL players themselves.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1113700/index.htm

Based on a survey of 354 NFL players in 2004.

Who Is the Greatest Player You Ever Saw?

Barry Sanders 30%
Running Back, Lions

Walter Payton 20%
Running Back, Bears

Joe Montana 8%
Quarterback, 49ers-Chiefs

John Elway 7%
Quarterback, Broncos

FAST FACTS: Only one active player, Ravens CB Deion Sanders (fifth, 7%), was among top eight vote-getters. He got 11% of the overall vote from defensive players.... Barry Sanders, who retired in 1998 at age 30, got 42% of the vote among players with eight or more years experience.

And that is greatest PLAYER, not just RB. Sanders got 42% of the vote from those vets who would have played against both. How can you argue against their peers with such an overwhelming result.

[boknows34]

The critics said Barry could not run at the goalline. Well Sanders is the only RB in NFL history to score all of his team's rushing TDs (again excluding QBs) in 5 separate seasons. He scored 47tds in the first 3 years of his career, 21 of them came from 1-4yds. 8 of them from 1 yard. Quite clearly he could run close to the goalline. Those first two seasons he still averaged 5.3ypc and 5.1ypc respectively. In fact in 1989 his longest run was just 34 yards, nine of his TDs were from 1-4 yards and yet he still finished with a 5.3avg.

* I've also heard that Sanders benefitted from having Lomas Brown block for him? Brown was the 6th pick of the 1985 draft and went to 7 Pro Bowls but didn't get a sniff of the Pro Bowl until 1990, Sanders' 2nd season. What is also forgotten is when Sanders rushed for 2,053 yds in 1997, Brown was an Arizona Cardinal.

* Sanders was often labelled as a guy who could not run anywhere near as well on grass as he could on turf. Lets look at the numbers though.

TURF
109 games
11,105 yards
5.0 avg
101.1 yards per game

GRASS
44 games
4,254 yards
5.0 avg
96.7 yards per game

__________________

HOME
77 games
7,933 yards
5.0 avg
103 yds per game

AWAY
76 games
7,336 yards
5.0 avg
96.5 yds per game

__________________

INDOORS
95 games
9,461 yards
5.0 avg
99.6 yards per game

OUTDOORS
58 games
5,808 yards
5.0 avg
100.1 yards per game


His numbers for home/away, and indoors/outdoors are again almost identical. On all 6 categories he averages at least 96.5 yards per game and exactly 5.0 yds per carry. I guess if a lie is told often enough people will begin to believe it.

* Go and take a look at who Sanders had to work with at QB. Gagliano, Peete, Ware, Krieg, Mitchell, Batch and Reich. Apart from Dave Krieg who was at the end of his career and played very briefly, all those guys were either career backups or a bust (Andre Ware).

Lets look at how Detroit's QBs performed 1989-98

CMP ATT YD YPA TD INT
1989 - 229 450 3282 7.29 11 24 (Gagliano, Peete, Hipple and Long)
1990 - 242 460 3328 7.23 24 20 (Peete, Gagliano and Ware)
1991 - 252 459 2974 6.48 16 17 (Kramer, Peete and Ware)
1992 - 231 406 3150 7.76 16 21 (Peete, Kramer and Ware)
1993 - 264 435 2943 6.77 15 19 (Peete, Kramer and Ware)
1994 - 250 459 3085 6.72 24 14 (Dave Krieg had a 14-3 td-int ratio. With some good QB numbers Sanders rushes for 1,883yds and a 5.7 ypc.)
1995 - 362 605 4510 7.45 33 12
(Great year for Scott Mitchell but it was a great year for all QBs and WRs in 1995) * In Barry's 7th year this was the first that an individual QB was consistent enough to throw for more than 2,000 yards. Every other year, the starter was either benched or injured.
1996 - 309 541 3463 6.40 20 21 (Mitchell and Majkowski)
1997 - 304 540 3605 6.68 19 17 (Mitchell and Reich)
(Barry's 2,053 yd season with a fulltime blocking fullback for the 1st time in his career. God help the NFL had he been in Dallas with Moose Johnston at FB)
1998 - 274 489 3398 6.95 17 13 (Batch, Mitchell and Reich)

* Another myth is that Sanders was not a good receiver. While he was definitely not going to remind anyone of Marshall Faulk, he was not a bad one either and certainly no worse than Smith.

In Barry's 10 seasons he had:
352 catches, 2,921 yds, 10 TD's with an 8.3 ypc.

Emmitt's first 10 seasons:
442 catches, 2,728 yards, 11 TD's with a 6.2 ypc.

Emmitt had 90 more receptions, but Barry still had nearly 200 MORE yards and just 1 less TD. The ypc gives Sanders a clear 2.1 yard advantage. Heck, Emmitt finished his career with 3,224 yds receiving...that's barely 300 more yards than Barry and it took him FIVE seasons longer. So why is Emmitt labelled a much better receiver than Barry?

* Most 100 yard rushing games in an NFL career

1- Emmitt Smith 78 in 226 games
2- Walter Payton 77 in 190 games
3- Barry Sanders 76 in 153 games

Barry rushed for more than 100 yards in almost half (49.7%) of the games he played in the NFL. He had one less 100yd game than Payton in 37 fewer games and 2 less 100yd games than Smith in 73 fewer games.


* Barry was criticised for not showing up in the playoffs. However Walter Payton played 9 games in the postseason and has the same number of 100 yd games as Barry - 1. Payton's career playoff ypc was also 3.51 compared to Barry's 4.24. Even Jim Brown had a 3.65 ypc, one 100-yd game and just 1 TD in 4 postseason games. Nobody seems to penalise Gale Sayers who never even played a postseason game in his career. Sayers (and Butkus) of course had the misfortune of being stuck on some dreadful teams.

While Dallas in the early to mid 90's were a juggernaut, Payton's Bears (pre 1984) and Barry's Lions were never built to go far in the playoffs. Those teams were often just about good enough to reach the playoffs but go no further when faced against superior opposition (often on the road). Sometimes those teams were only in the playoffs because of Payton and Sanders. An example being Payton's Bears getting crushed 37-7 by a far better Dallas team in 1977 after Payton had the best season of his career (1,852 yds in 14 games). In fact Payton didn't experience his first playoff win until he was 30 which proves you can't build a team around your RB when you don't have either a franchise QB or a Top 10 defense. Thankfully Payton got the ring his incredible career deserved as his twilight years coincided with the Bears brutal 46 Defense in the mid 80's. Barry sadly wasn't so fortunate being stuck on the worst-run franchise in the NFL.

I can also remember Detroit giving up 41 and 58 pts to Washington and Philadelphia in the playoffs in the 90s. Both times Sanders was effectively taken out of the game and never allowed to get into a rhythm with only 11 and 10 carries respectively. Can't blame Barry for the Lions throwing 6 interceptions against the Eagles and going into HT down 38-7. Even when Dallas got beaten badly by the Lions in the 1991 playoffs the Cowboys swarmed around Sanders. Their gameplan that day was if the Lions are going to beat us they will have to do it with the pass, which Detroit duly did when Erik Kramer had the game of his life.

[boknows34]

Finally:

When Dallas were dominant (91-95) it coincided with Smith's prime years for a RB. But Smith's numbers dropped off a cliff when the talent around him began to fade away. His ypc fell from 4.7 in 1995 (Dallas' last SB title) down to 3.7 in 1996. TDs dropped from 25 to 4 in just two seasons (95-97). The rest of his career from 1996 Smith's ypc was 4.1, 4.2, 4.2, 4.1, 3.9, 3.8, 2.8 and 3.5. He did bounce back with two good seasons aged 29 and 30 but they still pale in comparison compared to what Sanders and Payton did at the same age. Simply hanging on for dear life just to break career records when he was well past his best should not elevate him over players who retired in their prime (Brown, Sanders) or those who immediately left the game once the decline started (Payton). Yes, Smith was extremely durable but durabilty is not very high on the list of what makes a player truly great.

Sanders had FIVE seasons where he averaged at least 5 yards per carry, including a 5.7 in 1994 and an incredible 6.1 in 1997. His worst season was 4.3 in his last year and 1992 when his OL collapsed because of injuries and tragedy (Mike Utley's injury and Erik Andolsek's tragic death) And despite being on a mediocre team with a mediocre OL, and a carousel of poor QBs (see above), Sanders was an All-Pro in every one of his 10 seasons (6 1st team), was twice OPOTY, MVP, had 4 rushing titles, was a Top 2 rusher 7-times and was never out of the Top 5 in rushing (even when he missed 5 games in 1993).

By comparison Emmitt had just ONE season where he averaged at least 5 ypc. Sanders averaged 5 ypc for HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Emmitt only had FOUR seasons where he averaged at least 4.3 yards per carry, which matched Barry's worst season. That means Emmitt had 11 seasons out of 15 where he averaged 4.2 yards or less, including SIX seasons with an average of LESS than 4 yards. And he did it behind one of the most dominant O-lines in NFL history with a HOF QB, HOF WR, Pro Bowl TE and Pro Bowl FB Moose Johnston clearing his path. Despite playing 5 more seasons than Barry he was selected to 2 less Pro Bowls and 2 less 1st team All-Pros and 5 All-Pros in total. From 1996, when he was aged 28, to 2004 Smith was never more than a 1996 2nd team UPI All-Conference pick. Sanders was rushing for 2,053 and 6.1ypc aged 29 and Payton was in his 30's when he had seasons of 1,684 and 1,551.

Jim Brown and Sanders are 1 and 2 for yds/game and yds/carry for the 70 RBs with over 6,000 career yds rushing. Smith is not in the Top 10 for either. Even if you took Smith's 10 best seasons they still do not compare with Brown/Sanders. Payton and Sanders both proved they could totally dominate for longer with far less talent around them. They would dominate on any team in any era no matter how bad their teammates were imo. I'm not quite so certain the same can be said for Emmitt and that's why I have him around 5th-6th all-time which is still fantastic company. In Emmitt's defense he did get dealt a royal flush and took full advantage of it from 91-95.

[boknows34]

If that makes you feel better about it, fine

Jim Brown: 118 games, 12,312 rushing yards, 104.33 yards per game

Barry Sanders: 153 games, 15,269 rushing yards, 99.79 yards per game

It's Jim Brown's world and everyone else is just living in it


Brown's numbers are awesome but comparing raw numbers from the 1950-60's era to Sanders' 1990s era is difficult and slightly unfair. Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson were putting up insane numbers in the NBA during the same era as Brown was in the NFL. But would they have put up those same insane numbers in the 1990s NBA with Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Shaq? Professional sport changed so much between those two eras.

[wonderbredd24]

Brown's numbers are awesome but comparing raw numbers from the 1950-60's era to Sanders' 1990s era is difficult and slightly unfair. Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson were putting up insane numbers in the NBA during the same era as Brown was in the NFL. But would they have put up those same insane numbers in the 1990s NBA with Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Shaq? Professional sport changed so much during between those two eras.
Yes, yes, and yes they would have.

The 2 greatest centers of all time and one of the best guards of all time

[boknows34]

Yes, yes, and yes they would have.

The 2 greatest centers of all time and one of the best guards of all time

You think Wilt would have had seasons averaging 50 points and 25 rebounds like he did in 1962 and 5 or so others with approx 35-25 in the 1990s NBA?

It was men against boys. Just like Brown against most NFL defenders. It was a different sport in those days.

[wonderbredd24]

You think Wilt would have had seasons averaging 50 points and 25 rebounds like he did in 1962 and 5 or so others with approx 35-25 in the 1990s NBA?

It was men against boys. Just like Brown against most NFL defenders. It was a different sport in those days.
Greatness is greatness. Would he have put up the same numbers now? I have no idea. Would he dominate now like he did then? Absolutely, he would. He'd still be a man among boys.

Jim Brown would be the greatest of all time in any era.

[FUNBUNCHER]

I don't even LIKE Emmitt Smith(!), respect him a helluva lot, but I never rooted for him to succeed because he always took a hot steamy dump on my Skins.

Like most, I voted Sanders in this poll, my only disagreement would be that durability is a HIGHLY valued characteristic that few of RBs have, ( and why the SKins have both Willie Parker and Larry Johnson on their current roster and were inquiring about signing Brian Westbrook - all outstanding RBs at one time who's careers fell off do to multiple injuries, i.e., LACK OF DURABILITY).

RBs with a multiple injury history in college typically fall on draft day because of the nature of the position; no player on a play to play basis takes the devastating physical punishment that a RB does.

Questions about Chris Johnson's long term durability is the reason why the TItans have yet to give the man his money; if they could reasonably assume he could maintain nearly the same level of production for the next 8 - 10 years, guaranteeing him $30 mil in bonuses would be a no brainer. But CJ plays RB, and he's slight of build, so the Titans are wondering about the efficacy of investing that much in a position where players typically fall apart in 5 years.

Emmitt Smith's durability is the main reason IMO why he's a HOFer. And about Emmitt playing on an allstar football team, when he didn't play during their SB run, the Cowboys didn't win.
I've heard Emmitt called the most valuable member of those SB teams on offense, so let's not pretend he was just along for the ride.

FInally about that Oline, how many 1000 yard rushers did Dallas have after Smith left?? They basically had the same Oline unit for many years after, yet Dallas struggled to effectively run the football.

Jim Brown, Sanders and IMO Walter Payton were better, but Emmitt Smith was still a great RB.

EDIT: Wilt may not have averaged 50 pts and 25 boards a game, but I do believe in his prime if played in the 80s -2000s could have averaged 40 ppg/15 - 20 rebounds.

[tuan33]

Greatness is greatness. Would he have put up the same numbers now? I have no idea. Would he dominate now like he did then? Absolutely, he would. He'd still be a man among boys.

Jim Brown would be the greatest of all time in any era.

No possible way Wilt could have put on a 50/25 rebound season now. I doubt he could get to 35/17. The game has just changed so much where it's a perimeter oriented game now. The recent rule changes have made it much harder on a big man to dominate. Also the pace of the game has changed dramatically. When Wilt was playing, the teams would average from 125-130 possessions a game but now it's between 90-95. So there's no way you'd see anyone average between 24-25 rebounds a game like it wilt's days.

[wonderbredd24]

No possible way Wilt could have put on a 50/25 rebound season now. I doubt he could get to 35/17. The game has just changed so much where it's a perimeter oriented game now. The recent rule changes have made it much harder on a big man to dominate. Also the pace of the game has changed dramatically. When Wilt was playing, the teams would average from 125-130 possessions a game but now it's between 90-95. So there's no way you'd see anyone average between 24-25 rebounds a game like it wilt's days.

The reason a big man doesn't dominate now is because all of the centers are terrible. Zydrunas Ilgauskus is still probably a Top 5 center. Dwight Howard is the best there is right now and he has no offensive game to speak of... if you put in someone like Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain, they would absolutely destroy the league.

Yes, he'd likely not get 50/25, but he would be dominant. There's no question about that.

[LonghornsLegend]

Questions about Chris Johnson's long term durability is the reason why the TItans have yet to give the man his money; if they could reasonably assume he could maintain nearly the same level of production for the next 8 - 10 years, guaranteeing him $30 mil in bonuses would be a no brainer. But CJ plays RB, and he's slight of build, so the Titans are wondering about the efficacy of investing that much in a position where players typically fall apart in 5 years.


Come on dude. This is all false, more so, it's all your opinion, but instead you stated your opinion as the Titans opinion.


You don't worry about a players long term durability when he's going into his 3rd NFL season. Or wait, maybe their concerned about all those games he's missed in his NFL career, or how last year he got hurt when carrying the load, or how he was injured so much in College right?


The 30% rule is why he isn't getting paid. Expect him to maintain the same level of production for the next 10 years? Ummm, how long do you think contracts last for?


You said they need to be comfortable with him maintaining durability and production for 8-10 years, well for one, he's 24 years old, so on the low end of your spectrum he'd be 32, on the high end 34, so I don't think you thought that all the way through.


Secondly, contracts are generally 5 years, and you can easily be cut after 3-4 without much of a cap hit at all. Nobody realistically expects a RB that is 24 years old to dominate the league another 8-10 years.


Third, there is no reason at all to question their durability at all when he's showed no signs of being hurt or injured in his career.

[yo123]

Zydrunas Ilgauskus is still probably a Top 5 center.

Wait. What?

[FUNBUNCHER]

You're right, Longhorn, on all counts!

But if he were a QB or an DE who put up career numbers the way CJ has, I think the Titans would be more willing to lock him up long term.

Just my opinion!

The nature of his position and the time that most RBs are still highly productive plays at least a small part in why the Titans have declined thus far to give him a new deal.

Many teams don't value the RB position because they can be replaced rather easily and they don't play that long at a pro bowl level.

[wonderbredd24]

Wait. What?

exaggeration, but you get my point... the center position in the NBA is awful

[Vikes99ej]

Give me Barryyyyy

[boknows34]

Most people don't even remember Barry's greatest record. He still holds the record for most rushing yards in a college season, despite playing only 11 regular season games and a Bowl. I don't even think they count his Bowl game numbers from that season, and he had over 2,600. They count Bowl games now into stat totals. There are guys playing 14 games and still nobody in Div 1 has surpassed Barry's 11 game total. If Barry had played 14 games that year, it's almost certain he would have gone over 3,000. Most underappreciated record in sports.

If you include his bowl game Barry rushed for 2,850 yds and scored 44 TDs in just 12 games for Oklahoma St in 1988.


Sep 10 v Miami, Ohio
18-178-2 TDs. Also returned opening kickoff 100 yards for TD.

Sept. 24 v Texas A&M
20-157-2 TDs. Also had 61-yard punt return for TD

Oct. 1 v Tulsa
33-304-5 TDs

Oct. 8 at Colorado
24-174-4 TDs

Oct. 15 at Nebraska
34-189-4 TDs. At the time, the 4th-most rushing yards against any Nebraska team.

Oct. 22 v Missouri
25-154-2 TDs

Oct. 29 at Kansas St
37-320-3 TDs; the 2nd best rushing tally in Big Eight history at the time.

Nov. 5 v Oklahoma
39-215-2 TDs

Nov. 12 v Kansas
37-312-5 TDs. Broke single-season TD record with 31 for the season at this point.

Nov. 19 at Iowa State
32-293-4 TDs. Broke Big 8 season rushing record with this game.

Dec. 3 vs. Texas Tech
44-332-4 TDs.

Dec. 30 vs. Wyoming (Holiday Bowl)
29-222-5 TDs (Only played first 3 quarters).

XyZCY6SqZLw

[P-L]

Yeah, Barry was ridiculous in college to say the least. Four 300+ yard games and one game with 293 yards. Absurd!

[FUNBUNCHER]

Ugh!! Triplets?? Try Twins!

Troy Aikman was slightly better than mediocre as an NFL QB; in a 12 year career, he had 9 seasons where he threw for 16 TDs or less, with several 11 TD and 12 TD seasons sprinkled in. All of this taking place in the modern passing era of the NFL.

Emmitt and Irvin were the ones who powered those Cowboys teams on offense, not Troy.

3 SB rings and being drafted #1 overall are the reasons he's in the HOF.

More evidence of how 'great' Emmitt Smith was as a player, but not better than Sanders.

[Matthew Jones]

Easy call for me with Sanders but I'm kind of shocked at how lopsided the voting was.

[Shahin]

Easy call for me with Sanders but I'm kind of shocked at how lopsided the voting was.

for 145 people it was an easy call.

[Addict]

in a league where guys were trying to injure him in some dirty ways, but he never missed a game.

And yes, Jim Brown was a phenominal athlete... you don't become the best of all time if you aren't and you don't have magazine covers on SI talking about a potential comeback in the 80's when you retired in the mid 60's unless you are pretty much a God.

Yes I'm sure all the Baltimore Ravens fans are very proud of what their franchise's greatest player ever achieved. Brown was indeed a staple on those teams and he was phenomenal.

[wonderbredd24]

Yes I'm sure all the Baltimore Ravens fans are very proud of what their franchise's greatest player ever achieved. Brown was indeed a staple on those teams and he was phenomenal.

Yea... name, colors, records, achievements, everything else stayed in Cleveland. The Ravens only got the players that were currently on the roster

Funny though

[J-Mike88]

Yea... name, colors, records, achievements, everything else stayed in Cleveland. The Ravens only got the players that were currently on the roster

Funny though
That's a good point wonder.
I think it was so smart and obvious for the city of Cleveland to get to keep their nickname, the Browns (even though it's the most boring name and logo in sports).

And I've never understood why Arizona took the St Louis Cardinals and then St Louis took the Los Angeles Rams..... Tennessee took the Oilers, then changed to the Titans (good). Why didn't Houston get to keep the name "Oilers"? Oil Slicks?

Baltimore should be the Colts still. For history sake.

[wonderbredd24]

That's a good point wonder.
I think it was so smart and obvious for the city of Cleveland to get to keep their nickname, the Browns (even though it's the most boring name and logo in sports).

And I've never understood why Arizona took the St Louis Cardinals and then St Louis took the Los Angeles Rams..... Tennessee took the Oilers, then changed to the Titans (good). Why didn't Houston get to keep the name "Oilers"? Oil Slicks?

Baltimore should be the Colts still. For history sake.

How is the team's name boring? It's named after the greatest coach of all time. That's awesome and incredibly unique

As for the city of Cleveland keeping everything... I think that's what seperates Cleveland as a football town from everyone else, though I wish Baltimore would have fought harder to keep the Colts' name and ****

Houston didn't give a **** that the Oilers left... the 'Save the Oilers' rally didn't even get to triple digits.

I think Green Bay could do it, but that's about it

[Bengals78]

How is the team's name boring? It's named after the greatest coach of all time. That's awesome and incredibly unique

As for the city of Cleveland keeping everything... I think that's what seperates Cleveland as a football town from everyone else, though I wish Baltimore would have fought harder to keep the Colts' name and ****

I think Green Bay could do it, but that's about it

Or lazy lol JK

What do we name it?
I dont know....
**** it, lets just use my last name.