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bce
06-25-2010, 04:42 PM
Intersting article on espn.com, listing the top 10 "freaks" in college football. Most interesting to me #9 Jonathan baldwin. 6 5 228, 360 bench with what im imagining are 36 inch arms. 4.37 40. 42 inches in the vertical. 11 foot broad jump.

Also listed in just missed the cut robert griffin and ryan mallett amongst others.

persona non grata, julio jones, aj green, michael floyd, none made the freak list, even honorable mention in the freak list.

Put that together with superior production and far superior hands, no injury problems, and you get the real #1 reciever in the draft

prock
06-25-2010, 04:47 PM
What makes you believe Baldwin has "far superior hands" to Green or Floyd?

djp
06-25-2010, 04:51 PM
That list should start with Allen Bailey. #3 is way too low. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am a firm believer that Allen Bailey will have one of the greatest combines in the history of the event. He is an unbelievable athlete.

Three-hundred-pound football players simply aren't put together like Bailey, who has become a fixture on this list. It also doesn't hurt that he has such a Bunyanesque background; he once killed an alligator with a shovel. Bailey led UM in sacks (seven) and TFLs (11) last season despite bouncing between tackle and end. I asked his pal DeMarcus Van Dyke, a starting CB at Miami: What's the most impressive thing he's seen Bailey do?

"I've been his roommate for three years. Our freshman year, he picked me up by my feet with one hand and hung me upside down," said VanDyke, who added that he's also witnessed Bailey power-clean 400 pounds, vertical 39 inches and run a 4.65 40.

prock
06-25-2010, 04:57 PM
That list should start with Allen Bailey. #3 is way too low. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am a firm believer that Allen Bailey will have one of the greatest combines in the history of the event. He is an unbelievable athlete.

That is pretty incredible. If those numbers are legit, that would be right up there.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:01 PM
What makes you believe Baldwin has "far superior hands" to Green or Floyd?


The spectacular circus catches he makes on a regular basis

bce
06-25-2010, 05:05 PM
That list should start with Allen Bailey. #3 is way too low. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am a firm believer that Allen Bailey will have one of the greatest combines in the history of the event. He is an unbelievable athlete.


Now I'd like to see some better play. Still on the board, but I'd like to see some better play. he'll only rise so far regardless because hes not an edge rusher that ive seen. Rumors of his physical ability have been flying for a while, Id like to see it translate on the field.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:09 PM
I think jonathan baldwins more of a freak than peterson, just looking at the #s. 4.37 4.37 11' 1 11' 42 inch vert for baldwin 39 for peterson. I dont know if petersons 220 either. baldwins a legit 6 5 230 area. I think baldwins #1, the #1 freak. Most importantly of all the "freaks" on the list hes the best football player.

I'll say it now like i said it before. Baldwin is a tougher less injury prone calvin johnson clone.

Hines
06-25-2010, 05:10 PM
I hope Jon Baldwin runs a 4.6 because I want him with his hometown Pittsburgh Steelers. Allen Bailey still looks like Amare Stat.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:11 PM
Bruce carter will run 4.39 when pigs start flying.


Also persona non grata Robert Quinn.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:13 PM
I hope Jon Baldwin runs a 4.6 because I want him with his hometown Pittsburgh Steelers. Allen Bailey still looks like Amare Stat.


We can only hope brother, we can only hope. But stranger things have happened, better players have fallen. I'll be honest i'd settle for a 6-10 this year, the ax for the "terrel owens' of nfl coaches mike tomlin, and a shot at baldwin. Ben with mendenhall, baldwin and wallace.

We can only hope brother, we can only hope.

Mr. Goosemahn
06-25-2010, 05:17 PM
Allen Bailey still looks like Amare Stat.

Thank you! For a while now, whenever I saw him I thought he resembled someone but couldn't figure out who.

Also, **** yes to Baldwin as a Steeler.

Mr. Goosemahn
06-25-2010, 05:22 PM
How good a 3-4 end could Bailey be? With that strength and athleticism, it might seem like a waste to put him there, but at the same time he could be a dominant player.

prock
06-25-2010, 05:23 PM
OK, we will take Tomlin back since you don't appreciate him in Pitt. And Pat Peterson is a better football player than Jonathan Baldwin.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:25 PM
Hopefully we'll have like the 8th pick if we dont win the super bowl, then hopefully someone will draft jake locker and robert quinn and patrick peterson and players at other positions that we dont need. If were outside of the top 10, it aint going to happen, although we havent traded up in a while in rd 1 ben aint getting any younger. Baldwin is an over the top type player. You put him with mike wallace mr 4.28, Its like jet fuel and a nuclear reactor. Add in mendenhall with ben and how are you going to stop the steelers on offense?

Answer: youre not going to. baldwin is one of the best prosepect ever at the position. Plus hes from aliquippa, and darrelle revis says aliquippa dont miss.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:27 PM
OK, we will take Tomlin back since you don't appreciate him in Pitt. And Pat Peterson is a better football player than Jonathan Baldwin.

Based on what? Hes not a better athlete. He wasnt more productive.

prock
06-25-2010, 05:28 PM
Based on what? Hes not a better athlete. He wasnt more productive.

Production as a cornerback isn't something you can put into statistics.

djp
06-25-2010, 05:28 PM
How good a 3-4 end could Bailey be? With that strength and athleticism, it might seem like a waste to put him there, but at the same time he could be a dominant player.

Most people think Bailey is best suited at 3-4 DE. If he produces again this year, I would bet 3-4 teams would be falling over themselves to get him. I think he's a better 3-4 prospect than Tyson Jackson. Not saying he's top 3 material, but Jackson was a unique situation that Kansas City REALLY needed. As in a slight reach, where they could have probably gotten him at 7 or 8 if they wanted.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:29 PM
OK, we will take Tomlin back since you don't appreciate him in Pitt. And Pat Peterson is a better football player than Jonathan Baldwin.

Please take tomlin, i'll pay you. He is not a "football mind". Hes a diva and a talking head. His strategy for football is let the other team hang around as long as possible even if youre far superior then have #7 bail you out.

Thats coaching football according to mike tomlin

prock
06-25-2010, 05:30 PM
OK, I will trade you Tomlin for Childress straight up.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:32 PM
Production as a cornerback isn't something you can put into statistics.

Your 50% right and 50 % wrong. Ike taylor is one of the best cover corners in history. hes been shutting down everyone, getting 90 tackles a year for most of this decade. But hes not an all time great because he lacks ball skills.

The 50% where youre wrong has to do with "ball skills". the best corners of all time have "ball skills" along with covergae ability.

prock
06-25-2010, 05:34 PM
Your 50% right and 50 % wrong. Ike taylor is one of the best cover corners in history. hes been shutting down everyone, getting 90 tackles a year for most of this decade. But hes not an all time great because he lacks ball skills.

The 50% where youre wrong has to do with "ball skills". the best corners of all time have "ball skills" along with covergae ability.

Wait what? This doesn't have any relevance to anything. I said cornerback production can't be measured in statistics. So you come back with this ball skill rant. What does that have to do with measuring cornerback production with statistics?

prock
06-25-2010, 05:36 PM
Ike taylor is one of the best cover corners in history.

This is funny too.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:40 PM
OK, I will trade you Tomlin for Childress straight up.


I'll take it any day. All childress has done is take an average team and make it a super bowl contender. All mike tomlins done is take a great team and make it look average. And if it wasnt for #7 bailing him out, hed already have been canned.

So thats the end of that conversation,


So lets talk about AJ green.........................

bce
06-25-2010, 05:42 PM
Wait what? This doesn't have any relevance to anything. I said cornerback production can't be measured in statistics. So you come back with this ball skill rant. What does that have to do with measuring cornerback production with statistics?


Sure it can, the all time greats have "ball skills". They make interceptions. they create turnovers. So youre 50% wrong when you say it cant be measured. Ike taylors a great player, the premiere coverage corner of this decade. But he doesnt make interceptions, i.e. he lacks ball skills.

bce
06-25-2010, 05:44 PM
No one has covered the top receiver on the opposing team more often and with a better success rate than ike taylor. You just dont hear about him, because he doesnt make interceptions.

Now lets talk about that aj green "freak"

RealityCheck
06-25-2010, 06:22 PM
Can someone link me to it?

bored of education
06-25-2010, 06:30 PM
wwwdotespndotcomslashfreaks

theMadStork
06-25-2010, 06:31 PM
No one has covered the top receiver on the opposing team more often and with a better success rate than ike taylor.

are you on any medication?

bored of education
06-25-2010, 06:32 PM
are you on any medication?

if he is not, you got a referral?

RealityCheck
06-25-2010, 06:33 PM
Insider. Damn.

Woo! Bruce Carter at #1!

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 06:56 PM
If baldwin really runs a 4.37 40 (i guestimated a high 4.4) he will undoubtably be the #1 w.r. prospect in this draft and on par with calvin johnson and randy moss as the best w.r. prospects ever....i still say he'll run a 4.48 or round-a-bouts.

bce
06-25-2010, 07:01 PM
are you on any medication?


yes its called 2 super bowl wins and playing on the best defense of the decade and shutting down ocho cinco 10 consecutive times disease

bce
06-25-2010, 07:11 PM
yes its called 2 super bowl wins and playing on the best defense of the decade and shutting down ocho cinco 10 consecutive times disease


just like the draft, its only the most talked about that you know anything about.


No doubt roscoe, even if he runs 4.48 at that size, with baldwins ball skills, hes still the #1 wr. Theres no doubt of the class hes been the best player on the field. What i like more than calvin johnson is that he isnt an injury prone softy. What i like more than randy moss is that he hasnt proven as of yet to be nuts.

Hes up there with the andre johnsons and larry fitzgeralds no doubt as a prospect.

But see the difference between me and the others is i already knew this. I dont need espn.com to feed me stuff. All you have to do is watch a game of his and a game of aj greens and theres just no comparison in any way. Baldwins the best. Theres not even a close second, even in a strong class.

But because we dont hear his name until it makes us ill and he wasnt the #1 rated high school reciever and he hasnt contended for the bcs title or been on prime time football every week, hes not better than AJ green.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 07:15 PM
just like the draft, its only the most talked about that you know anything about.


No doubt roscoe, even if he runs 4.48 at that size, with baldwins ball skills, hes still the #1 wr. Theres no doubt of the class hes been the best player on the field. What i like more than calvin johnson is that he isnt an injury prone softy. What i like more than randy moss is that he hasnt proven as of yet to be nuts.

Hes up there with the andre johnsons and larry fitzgeralds no doubt as a prospect.

But see the difference between me and the others is i already knew this. I dont need espn.com to feed me stuff. All you have to do is watch a game of his and a game of aj greens and theres just no comparison in any way. Baldwins the best. Theres not even a close second, even in a strong class.

But because we dont hear his name until it makes us ill and he wasnt the #1 rated high school reciever and he hasnt contended for the bcs title or been on prime time football every week, hes not better than AJ green.

i agree and disagree...if baldwin runs a 4.48 and green runs a 4.3? green is the #1 guy....green just seems quicker if not faster on the field but if that notion is proven wrong at the combine then baldwin is undoubtably the #1 guy and it isnt debatable....but for now i have green as my #1 propsect cause i just dont see a 4.3 from baldwin.

bce
06-25-2010, 07:44 PM
greens not going to run a 4.3 If he was hed be on the "freak list, at least as honorable mention, and since hes a top 5 player on every board in the world, you know for a fact they know about him. he wasnt even "just missed the cut"

Its not all about triangle numbers either, which according espn.com baldwins a freak and aj green isnt even worth a mention. What happens between the white lines is whats really important. greens not quicker or faster, if he was hed be the guy who had 12 games with at least one 40 yard play and hed be the guy who averaged 20 yards per catch. And even if he is roscoe, hes still not the guy who had 12 games with at least one 40 yarder and aj greens not the guy who averaged 20 yards per catch. So really its immaterial what the triangle numbers are. The triangle numbers should never be the be all and end all, you dont rate players higher or lower based on it. Its a measure of nfl level athleticism, and as long as you display the required nfl level athleticism, what happens between the white lines is the trump card.

If greens a 4.3 guy i just wonder why baldwins on the freak list and hes not even mentioned.

OaklandRaider56
06-25-2010, 07:47 PM
Can someone post the players on the list?

bce
06-25-2010, 07:52 PM
Its on espn.com. You dont have be an insider. I dont want to paste it.

Im sure al davis saw it though. You can bet theres some future oakland raiders on there.

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 07:55 PM
greens not going to run a 4.3 If he was hed be on the "freak list, at least as honorable mention, and since hes a top 5 player on every board in the world, you know for a fact they know about him. he wasnt even "just missed the cut"

Its not all about triangle numbers either, which according espn.com baldwins a freak and aj green isnt even worth a mention. What happens between the white lines is whats really important. greens not quicker or faster, if he was hed be the guy who had 12 games with at least one 40 yard play and hed be the guy who averaged 20 yards per catch. And even if he is roscoe, hes still not the guy who had 12 games with at least one 40 yarder and aj greens not the guy who averaged 20 yards per catch. So really its immaterial what the triangle numbers are. The triangle numbers should never be the be all and end all, you dont rate players higher or lower based on it. Its a measure of nfl level athleticism, and as long as you display the required nfl level athleticism, what happens between the white lines is the trump card.

If greens a 4.3 guy i just wonder why baldwins on the freak list and hes not even mentioned.

1) green plays in a much superior defensive conference.
2) baldwins size is what makes him perhaps a freak....i still dont see a 4.3 40.

OaklandRaider56
06-25-2010, 08:09 PM
Its on espn.com. You dont have be an insider. I dont want to paste it.

Im sure al davis saw it though. You can bet theres some future oakland raiders on there.

Really? Cause I went to it, saw Bruce Carter, then it asks me if I want to become an insider so I can see the whole thing.

And I'm sure he did.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:18 PM
1) green plays in a much superior defensive conference.
2) baldwins size is what makes him perhaps a freak....i still dont see a 4.3 40.




Im not ever going to be a believer in "its the other players" hes playing against or "the other players on his team". Thats a faux argument.

Baldwin doesnt have to run a 4.3 40 to be a freak. Hes a freak on the field, and thats really all that matters. Between the white lines hes a freak. Aj green is not a freak between the white lines and thats why hes not as good. He simply doesnt play as well.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:21 PM
Really? Cause I went to it, saw Bruce Carter, then it asks me if I want to become an insider so I can see the whole thing.

And I'm sure he did.

Yeah you do have to be an insider sorry


1, bruce carter
2. patrick peterson
3. allen bailey
4 stephen peaa
5 nate solder
6 jeff demps
7 noel devine
8 john simon
9 baldwin
10 trent richardson ryan bartholemew

then they have some 'just missed the cut"

MiWolves
06-25-2010, 08:25 PM
I thought this was a freak list thread and not a Jonathan Baldwin thread just saying..

roscoesdad27
06-25-2010, 08:28 PM
Baldwin doesnt have to run a 4.3 40 to be a freak. Hes a freak on the field, and thats really all that matters. Between the white lines hes a freak. Aj green is not a freak between the white lines and thats why hes not as good. He simply doesnt play as well.

crabtree isnt a freak athelete althou he was a freak inbetween the lines....taylor mays is the opposite...this thread and list is about freak atheletes no?

FUNBUNCHER
06-25-2010, 08:51 PM
If you'd followed Baldwin during the recruiting process as a prep, he was reported to have run a sub 4.4 in HS. AJ Green and Julio Jones just don't have his long speed, and among those 3, I'm nearly 100% positive Baldwin will run the fastest official time.

Plus, he's much bigger and stronger than either Green or Jones.

I think all three of them will be gone by pick 12 anyway, they all are legitimate #1 WR prospects.

Just don't be surprised if Baldwin shows up at the NFL combine doing his best impression of Megatron v. 2.0.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:55 PM
crabtree isnt a freak athelete althou he was a freak inbetween the lines....taylor mays is the opposite...this thread and list is about freak atheletes no?

Crabtree wasnt a freak betwen the lines. He had a lot of balls thrown to him,he was the product of a system that made him productive, and hasnt done anything to this point.

Taylor mays also didnt do anything between the white lines. hes certainly a freak, but triangle numbers arent everything as stated before.

bce
06-25-2010, 08:57 PM
I thought this was a freak list thread and not a Jonathan Baldwin thread just saying..

I felt a burning desire to put the stuffed full of aj green crowd in their rightful place. Theyve now disappeared.

prock
06-25-2010, 11:35 PM
Im not ever going to be a believer in "its the other players" hes playing against or "the other players on his team". Thats a faux argument.

Baldwin doesnt have to run a 4.3 40 to be a freak. Hes a freak on the field, and thats really all that matters. Between the white lines hes a freak. Aj green is not a freak between the white lines and thats why hes not as good. He simply doesnt play as well.

ESPN is brainwashing you to think these guys are freaks. Maybe you should watch for yourself. Your hypocrisy is laughable.

How is competition a faux argument? AJ Green is playing against the best defensive conference in college football and Baldwin is playing against the Big East, which is a joke in football. It is obviously a legitimate case. I don't understand how you could possibly think the level of competition they play against isn't a legitimate argument.

I think AJ Green has better hands than Baldwin, but they are definitely close and comparable. I think AJ Green is quicker, while Baldwin is more straight line. I don't think Baldwin will run a 4.3, it will probably be a 4.4, and AJ Green won't be far behind him. I think both will be top 12-15 picks, if not top 10. I think it is hilarious how you are basing your rankings on a pre season "freak list" made by ESPN while you constantly chastise everyone else for having too similar of lists to ESPN. So please continue to "put me in my place" with fallacy.

OaklandRaider56
06-26-2010, 12:33 AM
Crabtree wasnt a freak betwen the lines. He had a lot of balls thrown to him,he was the product of a system that made him productive, and hasnt done anything to this point.

Taylor mays also didnt do anything between the white lines. hes certainly a freak, but triangle numbers arent everything as stated before.

If Crabtree was just a product of the system then why didn't Wes Welker have the same production? He played in the same system. Crabtree was just on another level, sure he benefitted from the system but Harrell went to him so much because he was a dominating WR. I'm not sure if his work ethic will allow him to have great success in the NFL but his thick body and ball skills let him tear apart defenses in college.

CLong4Heisman
06-26-2010, 09:38 AM
I'm really glad that starheather has rejoined us under the name bce.
Also if you think Baldwin makes better catches than Green... well here's proof you're wrong. Show me a better Baldwin catch please bce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKIknHpuytU

roscoesdad27
06-26-2010, 10:08 AM
I'm really glad that starheather has rejoined us under the name bce.
Also if you think Baldwin makes better catches than Green... well here's proof you're wrong. Show me a better Baldwin catch please bce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKIknHpuytU

thats not proof that he's wrong, all it is saying is that greens most spectacular catch just soo happens to be a lil more sensational than baldwins most spectacular catch....both make great acrobatic catches in traffic, i would call them even...its the 4.37 40 that i highly question, i have green slightly ahead of baldwin going into the season because he just seems quicker and faster but that could change thruout the season and esp. at the combine....both are legit.

FUNBUNCHER
06-26-2010, 12:45 PM
40 time or not, I still think AJ Green is considered the more polished WR, and think either Baldwin will have to put up a stellar season at wideout for PItt, or blow away his predraft tests to move ahead of Green at this point.

RealityCheck
06-26-2010, 09:35 PM
Dontay Moch, Nevada, DE; Zach Brown, UNC, OLB
If pass rushers who run a sub-4.3 aren't freaks, nobody is.

A Perfect Score
06-26-2010, 09:42 PM
There is just so much wrong with this thread that its embarrassing and I don't know where to start. GRF would blush. I hope bce received a hilarious amount of neg rep for stating that Ike Taylor is the premier cover CB of this decade.

And so this post isn't a complete waste, Allen Bailey is a freak and will test better then Mario Williams, and Johnathon Baldwin and his alleged 4.37 40 are still the 3rd best WR in this class. Michael Floyd and A.J Green are both superior prospects at this point.

CLong4Heisman
06-27-2010, 08:23 AM
There is just so much wrong with this thread that its embarrassing and I don't know where to start. GRF would blush. I hope bce received a hilarious amount of neg rep for stating that Ike Taylor is the premier cover CB of this decade.

And so this post isn't a complete waste, Allen Bailey is a freak and will test better then Mario Williams, and Johnathon Baldwin and his alleged 4.37 40 are still the 3rd best WR in this class. Michael Floyd and A.J Green are both superior prospects at this point.

I would put Julio over Baldwin too.

RealityCheck
06-27-2010, 09:18 AM
I would put Julio over Baldwin too.
I wouldn't. Julio's gonna be less used because two of the best RBs in college are on his team, and well, he's not the fastest guy alive.

FUNBUNCHER
06-27-2010, 09:27 AM
If FLoyd and Julio Jones run mid to low 4.5s, and Baldwin goes 4.43 or lower, by the time the draft rolls around, assuming Baldwin has a 1000+ yard/10+ TD season, he's the second WR off the board, with an outside shot at #1.

Right now it's a little early to say any of the top 3 or 4 WRs have their draft position set in stone.

None of these big WRs have a reputation for playing with outstanding long speed, like Baldwin does.

EDIT: link to the 'freak' list, ESPN says you have to sign up as an Insider

http://fvsports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140031

Jeff Demps needs to do something special this season, glad to see he's focusing on football over track this year.

'Bama RB Trent Richardson was also on the list, for his strength numbers, ( 400+ BP, 600# squat), also I didn't know Trent went to the same high school, Escambia, as Emmitt Smith.

The U's Allen Bailey needs to play up to his power/speed #s, a 300 pounder who runs a sub 4.7 and has a 39 inch vert needs to DESTROY college Olineman!

bce
06-27-2010, 05:36 PM
ESPN is brainwashing you to think these guys are freaks. Maybe you should watch for yourself. Your hypocrisy is laughable.

How is competition a faux argument? AJ Green is playing against the best defensive conference in college football and Baldwin is playing against the Big East, which is a joke in football. It is obviously a legitimate case. I don't understand how you could possibly think the level of competition they play against isn't a legitimate argument.

I think AJ Green has better hands than Baldwin, but they are definitely close and comparable. I think AJ Green is quicker, while Baldwin is more straight line. I don't think Baldwin will run a 4.3, it will probably be a 4.4, and AJ Green won't be far behind him. I think both will be top 12-15 picks, if not top 10. I think it is hilarious how you are basing your rankings on a pre season "freak list" made by ESPN while you constantly chastise everyone else for having too similar of lists to ESPN. So please continue to "put me in my place" with fallacy.


Since Pitt has produced far more hall of famers than georgia we'll put that whole thing to bed about "competition level"

And as im sure you'll remember, i posted my board a month ago, long before the "freak list" came out. There are of course several players on my board who did not make the "freak list".

You can "think" whatever you want, it doesnt mean thats the reality, based on the multitude of circus catches baldwin makes, and the few times he drops the ball.

bce
06-27-2010, 05:40 PM
40 time or not, I still think AJ Green is considered the more polished WR, and think either Baldwin will have to put up a stellar season at wideout for PItt, or blow away his predraft tests to move ahead of Green at this point.


Baldwins already put up a stellar season. 1100 yards and 20 yards per catch. hes the more "polished" reciever. AJ green has never put up a stellar season.

Its interesting to me now that aj greens no longer the best athlete hes now the "more polished" receiver. When all else fails i guess, when what happens between the white lines and what happens in testing doesnt back your arguments, you can always resort to trying to justify your arguments by "evaluating intangibles".

marshallb
06-27-2010, 05:41 PM
Since Pitt has produced far more hall of famers than georgia we'll put that whole thing to bed about "competition level"

What does the number of hall of famers a school has produced have to do with competition level? The talent that comes out of a school has nothing to do with the level of competition that they play, especially when talking about hall of famers, as they have been out of college for way too long to still have an impact. It's widely accepted fact that the SEC is far, far superior to the Big East, which for the most part is a total joke when it comes to football.

bce
06-27-2010, 05:44 PM
Youre going to show me one youtube highlight.

OF A HIGH SCHOOL GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and thats your argument?

marshallb
06-27-2010, 05:51 PM
Just to let you know this forum has a multi-quote feature so you don't have to create a new post for every thought and end up with triple or quadruple posts like you do.

bce
06-27-2010, 06:05 PM
What does the number of hall of famers a school has produced have to do with competition level? The talent that comes out of a school has nothing to do with the level of competition that they play, especially when talking about hall of famers, as they have been out of college for way too long to still have an impact. It's widely accepted fact that the SEC is far, far superior to the Big East, which for the most part is a total joke when it comes to football.


It means that the "competition level" at the top d-1 level is immaterial. The competition level is good enough at pitt that its not a consideration. Its not like going from d-1 in the sec to d-3 or high school in the big east. More like going from playing the pittsburgh steeler defense to playing the new orleans saints defense. The difference isnt that great, they can all play football.

bce
06-27-2010, 06:06 PM
someone just gave me positive scoring. DONT GIVE ME POSITIVE SCORING

A Perfect Score
06-27-2010, 07:06 PM
http://livingonthecostadelsol.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/webtroll.jpg

GENTLEMEN! DO NOT FEED HIM!

FUNBUNCHER
06-27-2010, 09:35 PM
I think Baldwin is the best WR available in 2011, just saying I think most 'draft experts' at this point have him ranked behind AJ Green.

AJ Green is barely 205# and Baldwin's almost 230. He's just so much more pro ready than Green is right now, there's really no comparison from a physical standpoint.

Shane P. Hallam
06-27-2010, 09:45 PM
I think Baldwin is the best WR available in 2011, just saying I think most 'draft experts' at this point have him ranked behind AJ Green.

AJ Green is barely 205# and Baldwin's almost 230. He's just so much more pro ready than Green is right now, there's really no comparison from a physical standpoint.

Green is MUCH more polished. Love Johnny B, but he hasn't been forced to run routes yet and need a lot of polishing to get there.

Halsey
06-27-2010, 09:50 PM
Being a bigger WR = being better. We all know that.

Mike Williams > Steve Smith

prock
06-27-2010, 10:49 PM
Since Pitt has produced far more hall of famers than georgia we'll put that whole thing to bed about "competition level"

And as im sure you'll remember, i posted my board a month ago, long before the "freak list" came out. There are of course several players on my board who did not make the "freak list".

You can "think" whatever you want, it doesnt mean thats the reality, based on the multitude of circus catches baldwin makes, and the few times he drops the ball.

AJ Green makes ridiculous catches, he actually runs routes. And your argument for competition Baldwin plays against is that Pittsburgh has more NFL Hall of Famers?? Carlos Mencia could say this best.
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/a/f/c/afc75396148f72866be67602722a579e.jpg

griff2213
06-27-2010, 11:57 PM
There is just so much wrong with this thread that its embarrassing and I don't know where to start. GRF would blush. I hope bce received a hilarious amount of neg rep for stating that Ike Taylor is the premier cover CB of this decade.

Yeah for real. Who is that guy?


But wait, what about Patrick Petersen at 220???? That would be unreal.

TACKLE
06-28-2010, 12:56 AM
Since Pitt has produced far more hall of famers than georgia we'll put that whole thing to bed about "competition level"

I thought team accomplishments are more important than individual success yet the SEC has won more National Championships than the Big East. Hmmm....A contradiction? No way.

Although I agree playing in the Big East certainly is not a knock on Baldwin, proving himself against elite defensive backs in the SEC is plus for AJ Green.

LonghornsLegend
06-28-2010, 01:36 AM
But see the difference between me and the others is i already knew this. I dont need espn.com to feed me stuff. All you have to do is watch a game of his and a game of aj greens and theres just no comparison in any way. Baldwins the best. Theres not even a close second, even in a strong class.




greens not going to run a 4.3 If he was hed be on the "freak list, at least as honorable mention, and since hes a top 5 player on every board in the world, you know for a fact they know about him. he wasnt even "just missed the cut"



Hypocrisy at it's finest. Gotta love it. But hey, your the only one with a real opinion around here, everyone else just uses ESPN except you, your the only one. Thanks for showing us the light.

A Perfect Score
06-28-2010, 02:05 AM
Its almost like he didn't think before he made the posts...

Oh wait.

LizardState
06-28-2010, 10:23 AM
Every yr. there's a list of these players with all the measurable freakish stats, but they ignore the game measureables.

With WRs we're talking the guys without the freaky 4.38 or faster 40 times, but those with excellent ball skills come off the board before the ones with the scorching 40 times.

Drafting a stats freak & not paying attention to the "game skills" stats can be hazardous -- Al Davis & the Raiders go for those blazers on the track in the 40 like Heyward Bey, but did anyone bother to look at his tapes to see if he could actually catch? They took another size freakish player #1 to be their franchise QB, a QB so big with such huge hands in fact that he could wrap one around a FB, now that's freak show material, & he couldn't even handle the preseason conditioning to be ready to play pro ball --- that kind of recklessness shows in the stat that really counts, the W-L rcd: the Raiders have 5 games or less each of the last 7 yrs, worst rcd. in pro FB.

Defensive players have their own stats that arent measurable either but scouts look at them 1st, for example LB Von Miller led the nation in sacks on an otherwise awful TAMU defense but how do they measure Miller shedding the blocks, pursuit to the ballcarrier etc? They don't. DL Marcel Dareus was the MVP in the NC game, not a lot of measurables there but stats like his INT returned for the TD that gave his team an insurmountable lead, or the hit on Colt McCoy knocking him out of the game, he got like a half sack on that play but it looks meaningless on the stat sheet when you look at the effect on the game. Both these defensive players will be off the board in the top 10 & will never be listed among the freaks yet their game dominance has been, well, freakish hasn't it?

bce
06-28-2010, 08:01 PM
I wouldn't. Julio's gonna be less used because two of the best RBs in college are on his team, and well, he's not the fastest guy alive.


So does jonathan baldwin. Pitts a conservative pro style offense, just like alabama.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:03 PM
I thought team accomplishments are more important than individual success yet the SEC has won more National Championships than the Big East. Hmmm....A contradiction? No way.

Although I agree playing in the Big East certainly is not a knock on Baldwin, proving himself against elite defensive backs in the SEC is plus for AJ Green.

Pitts produced more top end nfl talent than most if not all of the SEC schools. Espn had that football factory thing, Miami was #1, USC was # 2, who was # 3. Not alabama, not tenessee or georgia. It was Pitt.

You certainly want to be a "winner" in college, but its about nfl talent not bcs titles.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:05 PM
Every yr. there's a list of these players with all the measurable freakish stats, but they ignore the game measureables.

With WRs we're talking the guys without the freaky 4.38 or faster 40 times, but those with excellent ball skills come off the board before the ones with the scorching 40 times.

Drafting a stats freak & not paying attention to the "game skills" stats can be hazardous -- Al Davis & the Raiders go for those blazers on the track in the 40 like Heyward Bey, but did anyone bother to look at his tapes to see if he could actually catch? They took another size freakish player #1 to be their franchise QB, a QB so big with such huge hands in fact that he could wrap one around a FB, now that's freak show material, & he couldn't even handle the preseason conditioning to be ready to play pro ball --- that kind of recklessness shows in the stat that really counts, the W-L rcd: the Raiders have 5 games or less each of the last 7 yrs, worst rcd. in pro FB.

Defensive players have their own stats that arent measurable either but scouts look at them 1st, for example LB Von Miller led the nation in sacks on an otherwise awful TAMU defense but how do they measure Miller shedding the blocks, pursuit to the ballcarrier etc? They don't. DL Marcel Dareus was the MVP in the NC game, not a lot of measurables there but stats like his INT returned for the TD that gave his team an insurmountable lead, or the hit on Colt McCoy knocking him out of the game, he got like a half sack on that play but it looks meaningless on the stat sheet when you look at the effect on the game. Both these defensive players will be off the board in the top 10 & will never be listed among the freaks yet their game dominance has been, well, freakish hasn't it?


Baldwin far outperformed julio jones, aj green and michael floyd in games. thats why hes the #1 receiver. Not because hes the freak. It helps that hes the freak, spreads the gap further, but in the games, baldwin was just plain better. Its not about triangles. Its about whos the best between the white lines PROVIDED they have the required nfl abilities.

prock
06-28-2010, 08:06 PM
Pitts produced more top end nfl talent than most if not all of the SEC schools. Espn had that football factory thing, Miami was #1, USC was # 2, who was # 3. Not alabama, not tenessee or georgia. It was Pitt.

You certainly want to be a "winner" in college, but its about nfl talent not bcs titles.

So you are saying that Baldwin doesn't have inferior COMPETITION to Green or Jones because the school Baldwin goes to produces a lot more NFL talent? That is so completely irrelevant it is funny.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:06 PM
same with von miller. In the games, he was just the best.

bce
06-28-2010, 08:09 PM
So you are saying that Baldwin doesn't have inferior COMPETITION to Green or Jones because the school Baldwin goes to produces a lot more NFL talent? That is so completely irrelevant it is funny.


Its perfectly relevant. It proves the competition level is good enough to produce top end nfl talent. So this idea of "because" so and so goes where vs so and so goes here that there is some "advantage" for jonathan baldwin its bunk. The competition level at pitt is proven to be good enough to produce top end nfl talent. thats all that matters.

prock
06-28-2010, 08:11 PM
How is that relevant? We are talking about the teams Pittsburgh plays AGAINST currently, not the players who played AT Pittsburgh in the past. How does past NFL talent from Pittsburgh have anything to do with current Big East opponents of Pittsburgh?

bce
06-28-2010, 08:22 PM
The same teams that larry fitzgerald and darelle revis played against.

prock
06-28-2010, 08:39 PM
The same teams that larry fitzgerald and darelle revis played against.

They are different players than Baldwin. There have been successful NFL players from D-2 schools, so by your logic there isn't a significance difference in competition from D-1 and D-2 because there are D-2 players in the NFL. Your logic is so faulty, and I call you out on it every time, and all you do is reiterate the same points that have been logically disproved.

Oh, and I have made plenty of relevant posts today. You promised you would leave once I did, so I think it's time for you to go.

LizardState
06-28-2010, 08:59 PM
Baldwin far outperformed julio jones, aj green and michael floyd in games. thats why hes the #1 receiver. Not because hes the freak. It helps that hes the freak, spreads the gap further, but in the games, baldwin was just plain better. Its not about triangles. Its about whos the best between the white lines PROVIDED they have the required nfl abilities.

You missed the whole point of my post that you quoted. Freak means unusual, an unlikely occurrence, when applied to players it means a very unusual player. My post was about how focusing on something that unusual in the crapshoot-riddled, highly inexact science of drafting can be counterproductive to a team, even disastrous, like the Raiders' focus on 40 times alone that I mentioned. That's why it's a big old Huh? when a whole thread starts over something this unique & usual presented as some kind of breakthrough in talent evaluation.

Did you even read it? I'm being painfully redundant here b/c I think that train left the station when you were still buying your ticket.

Pitts produced more top end nfl talent than most if not all of the SEC schools.

Get some help. Or a grip, seriously. I'm assuming you're sincere in such as wildly erroneous & outrageous claim. Help is available -- read some of the threads here based on actual facts & trends, or read some of the posters where, some of them really really know FB, unlike some ESPN staff writers I could name. Or just watch a whole college FB season, or read one of the college FB mags that compare conferences in terms of NFL talent spread over decades, or even just recently.

I know it's the dullest time of the yr. now for FB fans, end of June before the July NFL camps open, & hardcore FB junkies are hard up for FB news, but jeez .....

bce
06-28-2010, 09:28 PM
They are different players than Baldwin. There have been successful NFL players from D-2 schools, so by your logic there isn't a significance difference in competition from D-1 and D-2 because there are D-2 players in the NFL. Your logic is so faulty, and I call you out on it every time, and all you do is reiterate the same points that have been logically disproved.

Oh, and I have made plenty of relevant posts today. You promised you would leave once I did, so I think it's time for you to go.

How many d 2 players play in the nfl?

bce
06-28-2010, 09:32 PM
Im sure thats what you would like for me to go, so you can take over your place regurgitating mel kipers information on the world unmolested.

Real men face the challenge. Back their arguments with facts. Like i always do.

Its never I think this with no reason why. Its always i think this and heres the reason why.

For you its i think this and listen to me because i have the biggest trap.

saintsfan912
06-28-2010, 10:05 PM
Sure it can, the all time greats have "ball skills". They make interceptions. they create turnovers. So youre 50% wrong when you say it cant be measured. Ike taylors a great player, the premiere coverage corner of this decade. But he doesnt make interceptions, i.e. he lacks ball skills.

Still absolutely ******* dumbfounds me. Ike Taylor, really?

bce
06-28-2010, 10:20 PM
If you only know what the media spews then you dont knwo of ike taylor.

Just ask ocho cinco about ike tyalor. Hes been one of the main guys through the glory years. Its been him, polumalu, hampton and smith and farrior. the other faces have all changed.

I bet you didnt know ike taylor ran a 4.2 40 when he came out.

He just cant catch. he can defense passes, just not cathc them.

bce
06-28-2010, 10:24 PM
You missed the whole point of my post that you quoted. Freak means unusual, an unlikely occurrence, when applied to players it means a very unusual player. My post was about how focusing on something that unusual in the crapshoot-riddled, highly inexact science of drafting can be counterproductive to a team, even disastrous, like the Raiders' focus on 40 times alone that I mentioned. That's why it's a big old Huh? when a whole thread starts over something this unique & usual presented as some kind of breakthrough in talent evaluation.

Did you even read it? I'm being painfully redundant here b/c I think that train left the station when you were still buying your ticket.



Get some help. Or a grip, seriously. I'm assuming you're sincere in such as wildly erroneous & outrageous claim. Help is available -- read some of the threads here based on actual facts & trends, or read some of the posters where, some of them really really know FB, unlike some ESPN staff writers I could name. Or just watch a whole college FB season, or read one of the college FB mags that compare conferences in terms of NFL talent spread over decades, or even just recently.

I know it's the dullest time of the yr. now for FB fans, end of June before the July NFL camps open, & hardcore FB junkies are hard up for FB news, but jeez .....


Honestly i ddint read much. I dont believe the draft is an inexact science. I believe in what goes on between the white lines and how it translates to the nfl game. i believe that "freaks" who also excel between the white lines are the best players. But they have to play well first. But when you add athletic freak to being a great football player thats generally what translates into the best of the best.

saintsfan912
06-28-2010, 10:35 PM
If you only know what the media spews then you dont knwo of ike taylor.

Just ask ocho cinco about ike tyalor. Hes been one of the main guys through the glory years. Its been him, polumalu, hampton and smith and farrior. the other faces have all changed.

I bet you didnt know ike taylor ran a 4.2 40 when he came out.

He just cant catch. he can defense passes, just not cathc them.

Is Ocho Cinco the best WR in the NFL or something? Oooohh, he shut down Chad Johnson a few times, who ******* cares. If he was soooo great and awesome and amazing and unbelievable then why hasn't he been to Pro Bowls?

Actually, Ike ran a 4.18 40 when he came out, trying to figure out what makes that relevant.

By the way, I'm from Louisiana. I know exactly who Ike Taylor is. He went to ULL, LSU's ***** school.

bce
06-28-2010, 10:48 PM
hes just one example of a guy ike taylor shuts down twice every year for the past 6 or 7 years. Ocho cincos a poretty good ball player. To shut him down ten games in a row there arent many who can do that.

Whats relevant is that ikes a freak and a great player and i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the world. If i needed one shut down corner on my team of this decade its ike taylor. if i just needed to shut down one guy for one game, not get interceptions and take it to the house sportscenter highlights but just to cover any one receiver mano a mano all game the player i would pick would be ike taylor. he has the best track record this decade of doing it.

A Perfect Score
06-28-2010, 11:34 PM
hes just one example of a guy ike taylor shuts down twice every year for the past 6 or 7 years. Ocho cincos a poretty good ball player. To shut him down ten games in a row there arent many who can do that.

Whats relevant is that ikes a freak and a great player and i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the world. If i needed one shut down corner on my team of this decade its ike taylor. if i just needed to shut down one guy for one game, not get interceptions and take it to the house sportscenter highlights but just to cover any one receiver mano a mano all game the player i would pick would be ike taylor. he has the best track record this decade of doing it.

Dear god this is filled with so intolerable stupidity. Do us all a favor and stop posting. Ike Taylor's a freak, so what? His 4.18 40 time wont help him if he keeps biting on every single double move thrown his way. Hes not the premier cover corner of this decade...hell, he might not even be the best CB on his team. McFadden is a better overall corner. There are a multitude of CB's from the past 10 years who are lightyears ahead of Ike Taylor in terms of overall coverage ability and consistency. Ask any Steelers fan, Ike Taylor's nickname is toast for a reason.

Aloysius
06-29-2010, 01:36 AM
You could add Christian Ballard as an honorable mention on this list. According to Tony Pauline, the Iowa defensive tackle is a verified 6'4", 298 lbs., and runs a 4.85 40.

ThePudge
06-29-2010, 10:54 AM
Take a look at last year's top performers at the NFL Combine...

Montario Hardesty - RB - Tennessee
Bruce Campbell - OT - Maryland
Trent Williams - OT - Oklahoma
Dorin Dickerson - TE - Pittsburgh
Scott Long - WR - Louisville
Sean Weatherspoon - OLB - Missouri
Jamar Chaney - ILB - Mississippi State
A.J. Jefferson - CB - Fresno State
Taylor Mays - S - USC

Honorable Mention:

Tim Tebow - QB - Florida
C.J. Spiller - RB - Clemson
Ben Tate - RB - Auburn
Jacoby Ford - WR - Clemson
Jimmy Graham - TE - Miami (Fl.)
Russell Okung - OT - Oklahoma State
Everson Griffen - DE - USC
Daniel Te'o Nesheim - DE - Washington
Linval Joseph - DT - East Carolina
Dekoda Watson - OLB - Florida State
Brandon Ghee - CB - Wake Forest
Eric Berry - S - Tennessee

Out of the 21 (or so) top performers in the 2010 NFL Combine, only 5 were listed prior to the season as freaks (even honorable mention) by espn. Those 5 were far from complete prospects and despite vast physical ability Taylor Mays waited until the Mid-2nd to hear his name called, Bruce Campbell & Everson Griffen sat until Day Three, Jacoby Ford went in the 4th, Dekoda Watson was a 7th Round pick. These articles are not a particularly strong indicator as to how good a football player is and, despite presenting itself as a list of the best workout warriors in college football, "freaks" fall through the cracks every year and present themselves during the season or at the Combine.

If you think the journalists at espn are infallible, that's fine, write on their message boards. This is a pretty popular NFL Draft board and here people take things a bit more seriously. Sportscenter cannot be used to gain an educated opinion on college football or the NFL Draft.

yourfavestoner
06-29-2010, 11:57 AM
hes just one example of a guy ike taylor shuts down twice every year for the past 6 or 7 years. Ocho cincos a poretty good ball player. To shut him down ten games in a row there arent many who can do that.

Whats relevant is that ikes a freak and a great player and i wouldnt trade him for anyone in the world. If i needed one shut down corner on my team of this decade its ike taylor. if i just needed to shut down one guy for one game, not get interceptions and take it to the house sportscenter highlights but just to cover any one receiver mano a mano all game the player i would pick would be ike taylor. he has the best track record this decade of doing it.

Can a mod make this guy's avatar a picture of Skip Bayless? Please?

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2010, 04:08 PM
I saw what you did, Pudge !!
No neg repping, no trash talking, just an airtight argument backed up by better FACTS.

A civilized beat down, but nothing personal.;)

Bailey and Barden are still two ESPN 'freaks' I'd be shocked if they didn't go in the first, although I thought the same about Taylor Mays, who I still think several teams will regret not taking in the 1st round.

ThePudge
06-29-2010, 04:22 PM
I saw what you did, Pudge !!
No neg repping, no trash talking, just an airtight argument backed up by better FACTS.

A civilized beat down, but nothing personal.;)

Bailey and Barden are still two ESPN 'freaks' I'd be shocked if they didn't go in the first, although I thought the same about Taylor Mays, who I still think several teams will regret not taking in the 1st round.

I haven't gotten into it with "bce" yet so there was no need for me to get too personal. Like anyone, I get irritated with trolls but the best way to do away with them is to give them something that they simply can't dispute. Some opinion had to go into picking those Combine standouts but generally speaking I went position to position selecting the top performers based on workout numbers.

I think the espn workout warrior list is an interesting read, but it's not meant to be an indicator of football success nor can it be used as an NFL draft aid. Simply put: if you read what they give you as fact and as a way to stack prospects then you're missing the point. It's supposed to be an interesting piece of journalism pertaining to college football, nothing more, nothing less. This is far from a top draft prospect list.

Hines
06-29-2010, 04:29 PM
Is Ocho Cinco the best WR in the NFL or something? Oooohh, he shut down Chad Johnson a few times, who ******* cares. If he was soooo great and awesome and amazing and unbelievable then why hasn't he been to Pro Bowls?

Actually, Ike ran a 4.18 40 when he came out, trying to figure out what makes that relevant.

By the way, I'm from Louisiana. I know exactly who Ike Taylor is. He went to ULL, LSU's ***** school.

I love Ike Taylor. I believe he is a very good cornerback. I wouldn't go as far as bce in calling him the best corner of the decade. But I can guarentee you that if he had hands, he'd be in pro bowls. He's ALWAYS in position to make the catch, but doesn't. Kid has stone hands. Simple as that.

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2010, 04:40 PM
Yup, if Ike had ball skills, I think people would be comparing him to Steelers greats Rod Woodson and Mel Blount.

It says something about his overall ability to still be regarded as a solid corner considering he can't catch a cold.

yourfavestoner
06-29-2010, 04:52 PM
Can a mod make this guy's avatar a picture of Skip Bayless? Please?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
06-29-2010, 04:54 PM
Allen Bailey, he kills alligators by hand

bce
06-29-2010, 05:58 PM
Green is MUCH more polished. Love Johnny B, but he hasn't been forced to run routes yet and need a lot of polishing to get there.

Again, since theres nothing between the white lines that proves Aj greens superior, nothing in testing that proves aj greens superior. Now hes a better route runner. Well if hes a better route runner how come he doesnt get open as much. How come he doesnt make as many plays. Theres nothing to back up that aj green is more polished. theres no tangible evidence of that being the case.

If you can answer that question for ill relent.

I thought much more highly of you shane. Evaluating on intangibles.

bce
06-29-2010, 06:03 PM
Dear god this is filled with so intolerable stupidity. Do us all a favor and stop posting. Ike Taylor's a freak, so what? His 4.18 40 time wont help him if he keeps biting on every single double move thrown his way. Hes not the premier cover corner of this decade...hell, he might not even be the best CB on his team. McFadden is a better overall corner. There are a multitude of CB's from the past 10 years who are lightyears ahead of Ike Taylor in terms of overall coverage ability and consistency. Ask any Steelers fan, Ike Taylor's nickname is toast for a reason.


Ike taylors never been nicknamed "toast". I dont know where you heard that, but not from any knowledgeable steeler fans.

Since im the guy who watches 16 games per year, and ike taylor is the guy whos started 6 years in arow and been on the 2 time #1 super bowl winning defense, a constant in the best defensive team of the decade, and bryant mcfadden is the guy the steelers let bolt. Well i think all that speaks for itself.

Stick to what you know. Spewing non fact based opinion about a subject you know nothing about making up nicknames etc etc. Youre reaching. stick to what you know.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 06:10 PM
Ike taylors never been nicknamed "toast". I dont know where you heard that, but not from any knowledgeable steeler fans.

Since im the guy who watches 16 games per year, and ike taylor is the guy whos started 6 years in arow and been on the 2 time #1 super bowl winning defense, a constant in the best defensive team of the decade, and bryant mcfadden is the guy the steelers let bolt. Well i think all that speaks for itself.

Stick to what you know. Spewing non fact based opinion about a subject you know nothing about making up nicknames etc etc. Youre reaching. stick to what you know.

Everyone knows Ike Taylor's nickname is toast. Its because he gets burnt on a regular basis, in case you didn't quite catch it the first time.

You have yet to provide one single statistic or even one legitimate football reference as to why Ike Taylor is even an average player, let alone a good one. All you have done is state over and over that he is a great player that no one recognizes because he lacks hands. Ike Taylor is a middle of the road corner with good speed who has poor play recognition and yeah, couldn't catch a cold let alone a football. Moreover, the Steelers aren't the best defensive team of the decade, and I'm seriously questioning whether you have ever watched a single game of football, let alone 16 games per season.

I'm just going to go ahead and point out the irony of you telling me I'm spewing "non fact based opinion", when that's all you have been doing for the last 5 pages. And I'm not "reaching" for anything. I'm telling you you are wrong. No reaching involved.

bce
06-29-2010, 06:25 PM
Heres my reasons

1. hes been a constant on the best defense in the nfl this decade.

2. he shuts down just about every receiver he plays against.

Theres my argument.

Ike taylors nickname is "swaggin" not "toast" which is made up of course by someone to justify whatever.

Ike taylor gets burned less than any man alive the last 5 years. Not many burn marks on that skin.

bce
06-29-2010, 06:28 PM
Whats your argument?



How many times per year do you see the steelers?

here it is "ike taylor is a middle of the road corner because I dont hear about him on sportscenter and in magazines"

" i said youre wrong"

Theres your basis.

Sniper
06-29-2010, 06:31 PM
Pump the brakes, APS. I don't know why you bother arguing with Starheather. It's not worth your time.

saintsfan912
06-29-2010, 06:37 PM
Ike taylors never been nicknamed "toast". I dont know where you heard that, but not from any knowledgeable steeler fans.

Since im the guy who watches 16 games per year, and ike taylor is the guy whos started 6 years in arow and been on the 2 time #1 super bowl winning defense, a constant in the best defensive team of the decade, and bryant mcfadden is the guy the steelers let bolt. Well i think all that speaks for itself.

Stick to what you know. Spewing non fact based opinion about a subject you know nothing about making up nicknames etc etc. Youre reaching. stick to what you know.

So all you watch is 16 games per season? That's impressive.

bce
06-29-2010, 06:48 PM
I wouldnt miss those 16. I watch plenty of others, but those 16 i catch them all.

And dont confuse me with the 'steeler nation" either. Its not just a reason to get drunk and try to use the steeler game to score women, which is what most of the steeler nation does. Its either a 'drinking" event or take a girl to the game event. Theres no more proven system of getting women in the pittsburgh area than making them feel like one of the "steeler nation".

Shane P. Hallam
06-29-2010, 06:55 PM
Again, since theres nothing between the white lines that proves Aj greens superior, nothing in testing that proves aj greens superior. Now hes a better route runner. Well if hes a better route runner how come he doesnt get open as much. How come he doesnt make as many plays. Theres nothing to back up that aj green is more polished. theres no tangible evidence of that being the case.

If you can answer that question for ill relent.

I thought much more highly of you shane. Evaluating on intangibles.

I evaluate with my eyes. I'm not sure what "evidence" you want. Over their careers thus far, AJ Green has more catches, yards, TDs, etc. as a whole and missed 3 games to Baldwin's 1. Sure, Baldwin didn't get the opportunities AJ Green did as a freshman for a few reasons. One of which being that Baldwin simply wasn't ready to take that step. He was as a sophomore.

Both are pro style offenses, but Green does run more of a variety of routes than Baldwin as seen via the tape, and gets open just fine. I'd argue this past year Stull was a better college QB than Cox (and two years ago, obviously Green had Stafford, another reason he had higher stats). You see the cutting ability, technique, and mental tendencies of Green on the field. For Baldwin, there are still lapses there. He can make the big play, but struggled with some of the shorter, 3rd down conversion yardage stuff.

We still have a whole year to go, and a lot will change. Right now, both are first round prospects IMO, maybe even Top 20 prospects, but I'll take Green over Baldwin.

TACKLE
06-29-2010, 06:55 PM
One of the all-time greats in lock down press coverage.

W6Ys0iEpz8A

And

displaying his great open field tackling.

CwbbsXdTVcc

bce
06-29-2010, 07:06 PM
I evaluate with my eyes. I'm not sure what "evidence" you want. Over their careers thus far, AJ Green has more catches, yards, TDs, etc. as a whole and missed 3 games to Baldwin's 1. Sure, Baldwin didn't get the opportunities AJ Green did as a freshman for a few reasons. One of which being that Baldwin simply wasn't ready to take that step. He was as a sophomore.

Both are pro style offenses, but Green does run more of a variety of routes than Baldwin as seen via the tape, and gets open just fine. I'd argue this past year Stull was a better college QB than Cox (and two years ago, obviously Green had Stafford, another reason he had higher stats). You see the cutting ability, technique, and mental tendencies of Green on the field. For Baldwin, there are still lapses there. He can make the big play, but struggled with some of the shorter, 3rd down conversion yardage stuff.

We still have a whole year to go, and a lot will change. Right now, both are first round prospects IMO, maybe even Top 20 prospects, but I'll take Green over Baldwin.

I dont know 1100 yds 20 ypc
vs 800 yds 14 yards per catch


I dont know how a player with higher production can have lapses and one with lower production runs better routes. It doesnt make sense to me. i never saw "lapses' from baldwin pretty much every time the ball went in his direction something good happened, he was always open. maybe his poor cutting and mental lapsing is better than aj greens "supposed" picture perfect intangibles. His "route running skills" havent given him the ability to get open and make more plays than jonathan baldwin. Imagine how much better baldwin will be when he "masters route running and cutting" and "gets his head in the game". And it doesnt matter what step Baldwin was in as as a freshman, it only matters what step hes in right now.

Ill say it now like ive said it before. Im not a believer in the "other players or coaches make a player better or worse" argument.

bce
06-29-2010, 07:09 PM
One of the all-time greats in lock down press coverage.

W6Ys0iEpz8A

And

displaying his great open field tackling.

CwbbsXdTVcc

Actually thats troy polumalu getting burned and everyone including himslef knows it. And other than that play, Fitzgerald had the blanket on him.

Shane P. Hallam
06-29-2010, 07:09 PM
I dont know 1100 yds 20 ypc
vs 800 yds 14 yards per catch


I dont know how a player with higher production can have lapses and one with lower production runs better routes. It doesnt make sense to me. i never saw "lapses' from baldwin pretty much every time the ball went in his direction something good happened, he was always open. maybe his poor cutting and mental lapsing is better than aj greens "supposed" picture perfect intangibles. His "route running skills" havent given him the ability to get open and make more plays than jonathan baldwin. Imagine how much better baldwin will be when he "masters route running and cutting" and "gets his head in the game". And it doesnt matter what step Baldwin was in as as a freshman, it only matters what step hes in right now.

Ill say it now like ive said it before. Im not a believer in the "other players or coaches make a player better or worse" argument.

You apparently did not read my post

evaluate with my eyes. I'm not sure what "evidence" you want. Over their careers thus far, AJ Green has more catches, yards, TDs, etc.

TACKLE
06-29-2010, 07:18 PM
Actually thats troy polumalu getting burned and everyone including himslef knows it. And other than that play, Fitzgerald had the blanket on him.

So it was Polamalu's fault that Ike Taylor had a chance to make a big stop on forth down by making an open field tackle and instead got juked out and fell flat on his face without even getting a hand on the running back. Okay thanks.

bce
06-29-2010, 07:24 PM
You apparently did not read my post

In 2 years aj green has more yards. But in the one year they both had a leading role, the winner was baldwin. Baldwin was the more productive, and is the more productive at this moment, so thats really all that matters. the only time aj green was better was when baldwin wasnt seeing the field as much. Once they both got on the field, once they got "equal time" its not really even close.

bce
06-29-2010, 07:25 PM
So it was Polamalu's fault that Ike Taylor had a chance to make a big stop on forth down by making an open field tackle and instead got juked out and fell flat on his face without even getting a hand on the running back. Okay thanks.


Polumalu was out of position on the play thats why the slant went to the house. had he been in position, it would have been your average slant gainer, and ike was playing outside shoulder on the play

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 07:29 PM
Heres my reasons

1. hes been a constant on the best defense in the nfl this decade.

2. he shuts down just about every receiver he plays against.

Theres my argument.

Ike taylors nickname is "swaggin" not "toast" which is made up of course by someone to justify whatever.

Ike taylor gets burned less than any man alive the last 5 years. Not many burn marks on that skin.

Whats your argument?



How many times per year do you see the steelers?

here it is "ike taylor is a middle of the road corner because I dont hear about him on sportscenter and in magazines"

" i said youre wrong"

Theres your basis.

Again, I reiterate that the Steelers defense isn't the best of this decade. The 2000 Ravens alone were far superior then anything the Steelers have put together in the last 10 years. More importantly, just because you play on a good defense does not make you a good player. That is probably the largest fallacy in your argument. There have been plenty of awful players who have played on amazing defenses.

Lets do last season, for example. Ike Taylor, as the Steeler's #1 CB, would of faced off against the top receiver on the opposing team. Lets see how he did, shall we? Brandon Marshall had 11 receptions for 112 yards against the Steelers. That was Ike doing his job though. Sidney Rice had 10 for 136, but I bet that was Ike Taylor "shutting him down" as well. Greg Jennings had 5 for 118 and a TD, but Ike was probably all over him that game. Louis Murphy had 4 for 128 and 2 TDs and he was a rookie. In fact, go to :40 seconds into this video and watch him absolutely TORCH Ike Taylor. Its fun, trust me.

j-8bCUQcyCU&feature=related

I'd venture to suggest if you go back for a few seasons, there are a ton more clips just like that one which show poor Ike playing catch up. Just because you have some sort of superiority complex which makes you believe everything you say is true doesn't mean it is. Again, 43 seconds into the video, check that post by the 4th round rookie. Thats the best cover CB of the decade? Nice try. Ill take:

- Deion Sanders
- Darrelle Revis
- Nnamdi Asamougha
- Champ Bailey
- Chris McAlister
- Shawn Springs
- Antoine Winfield
- Charles Woodson
- Asante Samuel (as much as I dislike him)
- Ronde Barber
- Patrick Surtain
- Ty Law
- Troy Vincent
- Sam Madison
- Samari Rolle
- Duane Starks
- DRC
- Dre Bly
- Nate Clements
- Al Harris
- Terrence Newman
- Quentin Jammer
- Aaron Glenn
- Deltha O'Neal
- Fred Smoot
- Sheldon Brown
- Lito Shepherd
- Aeneas Williams
- Charles Tillman
- Rashean Mathis
- Darrell Green (even at 41, in 1992)
- Terrell Buckley
- Chris Gamble
- Marcus Trufant
- Courtland Finnegan
- Darrent Williams (R.I.P)
- Gary Baxter
- Johnathon Joseph
- Leon Hall
- Dexter McCleon
- Brian Kelly
- Ken Lucas
- Leigh Bodden
- DeAngelo Hall (for all his faults)
- Dunta Robinson
- Carlos Rogers
- Richard Marshall

And Im sure I forgot some. Anyways, all superior or equivalent caliber of corners as Ike Taylor.

And did you just happen to forget that Ike Taylor was benched for 5 games in 2006 for sucking so much? Of course you did. Or were you counting the bench as one of those receivers he shuts down?

bce
06-29-2010, 07:34 PM
You apparently did not read my post

But not by much. Baldwin is averaging over 20 yards per catch to greens 15
green has 1700 yds to baldwins 1500 yds green 14 tds baldwin 11.

for 09 season though baldiwn beat him handily.

bce
06-29-2010, 07:38 PM
Again, I reiterate that the Steelers defense isn't the best of this decade. The 2000 Ravens alone were far superior then anything the Steelers have put together in the last 10 years. More importantly, just because you play on a good defense does not make you a good player. That is probably the largest fallacy in your argument. There have been plenty of awful players who have played on amazing defenses.

Lets do last season, for example. Ike Taylor, as the Steeler's #1 CB, would of faced off against the top receiver on the opposing team. Lets see how he did, shall we? Brandon Marshall had 11 receptions for 112 yards against the Steelers. That was Ike doing his job though. Sidney Rice had 10 for 136, but I bet that was Ike Taylor "shutting him down" as well. Greg Jennings had 5 for 118 and a TD, but Ike was probably all over him that game. Louis Murphy had 4 for 128 and 2 TDs and he was a rookie. In fact, go to :40 seconds into this video and watch him absolutely TORCH Ike Taylor. Its fun, trust me.

j-8bCUQcyCU&feature=related

I'd venture to suggest if you go back for a few seasons, there are a ton more clips just like that one which show poor Ike playing catch up. Just because you have some sort of superiority complex which makes you believe everything you say is true doesn't mean it is. Again, 43 seconds into the video, check that post by the 4th round rookie. Thats the best cover CB of the decade? Nice try. Ill take:

- Deion Sanders
- Darrelle Revis
- Nnamdi Asamougha
- Champ Bailey
- Chris McAlister
- Shawn Springs
- Antoine Winfield
- Charles Woodson
- Asante Samuel (as much as I dislike him)
- Ronde Barber
- Patrick Surtain
- Ty Law
- Troy Vincent
- Sam Madison
- Samari Rolle
- Duane Starks
- DRC
- Dre Bly
- Nate Clements
- Al Harris
- Terrence Newman
- Quentin Jammer
- Aaron Glenn
- Deltha O'Neal
- Fred Smoot
- Sheldon Brown
- Lito Shepherd
- Aeneas Williams
- Charles Tillman
- Rashean Mathis
- Darrell Green (even at 41, in 1992)
- Terrell Buckley
- Chris Gamble
- Marcus Trufant
- Courtland Finnegan
- Darrent Williams (R.I.P)
- Gary Baxter
- Johnathon Joseph
- Leon Hall
- Dexter McCleon
- Brian Kelly
- Ken Lucas
- Leigh Bodden
- DeAngelo Hall (for all his faults)
- Dunta Robinson
- Carlos Rogers
- Richard Marshall

And Im sure I forgot some. Anyways, all superior or equivalent caliber of corners as Ike Taylor.

And did you just happen to forget that Ike Taylor was benched for 5 games in 2006 for sucking so much? Of course you did. Or were you counting the bench as one of those receivers he shuts down?

Its all opinion. Theres no justification. You want to say hes not better than deion sanders or champ bailey thats fine im not going to argue that point.

But none of these have accomplished what ike taylor has other than a few, like dieon sanders and champ bailiey and a few others maybe.

Leon hall dunta robinson those types havent come anywhere near close.

And when i meant the best of the decade, i meant over the course of the entire decade not one year of the decade.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 07:43 PM
There is justification. Its at :40 seconds into that video. Ike Taylor is not a great CB, hes barely a good one. None of them have accomplished what Ike Taylor has? You mean being benched? Right, very few of them have been benched for being downright awful.

bce
06-29-2010, 07:47 PM
right because you dont hear about him on sportscenter. Well it was fun arguing the merits of ike taylor, i think the conversation has run its course.

BCE "swaggin".

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 07:49 PM
right because you dont hear about him on sportscenter. Well it was fun arguing the merits of ike taylor, i think the conversation has run its course.

BCE "swaggin".

What bearing does that have on anything I just said? I effectively prove you wrong so you reduce your argument to "because you dont hear about him on sportscenter"? Even if that did make any sense whatsoever, it's still not a legitimate counter-argument of any kind.

marshallb
06-29-2010, 07:51 PM
right because you dont hear about him on sportscenter. Well it was fun arguing the merits of ike taylor, i think the conversation has run its course.

BCE "swaggin".

So you get to say that the conversation is over because you have no argument? He brings up the point that Ike Taylor was benched because of his terrible play and you say nothing about that, other than that no one knows about him because he's not on sportscenter. APS also brought up the point of the other team's #1 receiver's numbers from this past season, and you have nothing to say to that, other than it's all opinion when that is pure fact, or as you like to say "the pudding".

TACKLE
06-29-2010, 07:52 PM
Polumalu was out of position on the play thats why the slant went to the house. had he been in position, it would have been your average slant gainer, and ike was playing outside shoulder on the play

Not that it needs to be any more clear that you have absolutely no understanding of the game of football, but this makes it even more apparent if that's even possible.

Answer this:

What very basic defense were the Steelers running on that play?

bce
06-29-2010, 07:58 PM
A defense where troy polumalu was supposed to be covering the middle of the field. Everyone knows what happened on the play. Now since im not a coach that makes some difference.

Its over becuase its old and i dont want to talk about it anymore, youre never going to believe anything you dont read in the media or see on sportscenter, Im never going to believe what i hear in the media and see on sportscenter.Its a dead horse.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 08:02 PM
A defense where troy polumalu was supposed to be covering the middle of the field. Everyone knows what happened on the play. Now since im not a coach that makes some difference.

Its over becuase its old and i dont want to talk about it anymore, youre never going to believe anything you dont read in the media or see on sportscenter, Im never going to believe what i hear in the media and see on sportscenter.Its a dead horse.

Any person who watches 1 football game, let alone 16 per season should be able to tell you what that defense is. You don't have to be a coach, you just can't be an insufferable moron. Luckily for us, you can't claim the latter.

What does sportscentre have to do with any of this? We presented legitimate, articulate arguments as to why Ike Taylor is not a good cornerback, and all you spit back is some ridiculous dribble about a media conspiracy you alone are fighting against. What does that have to do with Ike Taylor? Look at the plays we posted. Not sportscentre. Legitimate plays of him getting turned inside out. Where is your response?

bce
06-29-2010, 08:09 PM
I guess you were in the playbook and know exactly what defense was called and what audible was called etc etc.

Youre kidding yourself, and whether or not i pretend to know what play was called is immaterial

You did not press articulate arguments. You pressed that he wasnt as good as a list that you made up with no justification for why and the fact that he once got benched 4 years ago and one pass play in one game. That was the argument you made.

marshallb
06-29-2010, 08:12 PM
I guess you were in the playbook and know exactly what defense was called and what audible was called etc etc.

Youre kidding yourself, and whether or not i pretend to know what play was called is immaterial

You did not press articulate arguments. You pressed that he wasnt as good as a list that you made up with no justification for why and the fact that he once got benched 4 years ago and one pass play in one game. That was the argument you made.

You forgot the argument about the other team's #1 WR stats against the Steelers. I'm guessing you did that intentionally as you had no argument, even though you did nothing to disprove the statements that he made that you brought up there.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 08:13 PM
I guess you were in the playbook and know exactly what defense was called and what audible was called etc etc.

Youre kidding yourself, and whether or not i pretend to know what play was called is immaterial

You did not press articulate arguments. You pressed that he wasnt as good as a list that you made up with no justification for why and the fact that he once got benched 4 years ago and one pass play in one game. That was the argument you made.

Well it looks like a pretty standard cover 2 with press coverage, with the strongside linebacker rushing and Ike Taylor getting straight up abused by Larry Fitzgerald. Thats exactly what it looks like to me. That play is in no way, shape or form Troy Polamalu's fault. That one is entirely on Ike Taylor, your alleged best cover corner of the decade. And it wasn't one play. Technically, it was 3, and you have yet to provide evidence that he can cover anyone. Also, I provided you with stats from games last year where Taylor was abused. And yes, you stated he was the best cover corner of this decade, so I made a list of people who are superior players then he is. You haven't done one thing to refute anything I posted. And yes, he was benched. The best players of decades dont get benched. Im still waiting for your justification for that as well.

bce
06-29-2010, 08:23 PM
Youre obviously not a coach becuase that play would have never worked to the house against standard cover 2 press coverage that would have never went to the house you would have had 2 deep safeties, unless, one of those deep safeties was out of position. HMMMMM.

He shut down ocho cinco 10 games in a row. is that proof.

Hes been a constant on the best defense this decade. is that proof.

hes been a starter on 2 super bowl winning defenses. Is that proof.

or do you want you tube highlights of one play.

Seriously just post some draft stuff. Its a dead horse being someone who runs around posting nothing of relevance analyzing every syllable looking for any word to discredit because it makes you feel strong and big it doesnt faze me.

You'll never hurt my feelings, you'll never stop me. I'll always have an answer.

Youre wasting your time.

post some draft stuff.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 08:29 PM
Youre obviously not a coach becuase that play would have never worked to the house against standard cover 2 press coverage that would have never went to the house you would have had 2 deep safeties, unless, one of those deep safeties was out of position. HMMMMM.

He shut down ocho cinco 10 games in a row. is that proof.

Hes been a constant on the best defense this decade. is that proof.

hes been a starter on 2 super bowl winning defenses. Is that proof.

or do you want you tube highlights of one play.

Seriously just post some draft stuff. Its a dead horse being someone who runs around posting nothing of relevance analyzing every syllable looking for any word to discredit because it makes you feel strong and big it doesnt faze me.

You'll never hurt my feelings, you'll never stop me. I'll always have an answer.

Youre wasting your time.

post some draft stuff.

The safeties were exactly where they were supposed to be. Covering deep halves. Taylor got abused on the inside route and Fitz took it to the house down the seam. Ergo, Ike Taylor's fault. How is this hard to understand? And your proof is just you saying things. Post some stats. Videos. Hard evidence. Because quite frankly, and I bet Im not alone in this, no one believes a word you say.

You don't have an answer. You're just an idiot who says things for the simple sake of saying them. You arguments arent driven by logic, its just you spewing meaningless garbage and cluttering the boards with ****, getting in the way of intelligent people holding legitimate conversations.

EDIT: Also, stop ******* saying they were the best defense of this decade. The 2000 Ravens and 2002 Buccaneers defense were both much better then any defense the Steelers mustered.

VUBlacknGold
06-29-2010, 08:29 PM
At least GRF was funny most of the time, maybe some of the time for you but man, BCE is just...... i dont even know, i cant think of anything that low

bce
06-29-2010, 08:39 PM
The safeties were exactly where they were supposed to be. Covering deep halves. Taylor got abused on the inside route and Fitz took it to the house down the seam. Ergo, Ike Taylor's fault. How is this hard to understand? And your proof is just you saying things. Post some stats. Videos. Hard evidence. Because quite frankly, and I bet Im not alone in this, no one believes a word you say.

You don't have an answer. You're just an idiot who says things for the simple sake of saying them. You arguments arent driven by logic, its just you spewing meaningless garbage and cluttering the boards with ****, getting in the way of intelligent people holding legitimate conversations.

EDIT: Also, stop ******* saying they were the best defense of this decade. The 2000 Ravens and 2002 Buccaneers defense were both much better then any defense the Steelers mustered.

again the best defense of the entire decade or atleast the second half of the decade for the 4th time. And hes not in man coverage in a cover 2 so it wasnt his responsibility to keep that play from going to the house. It was someones responsibility other than his to keep that play in front of the defense

Again post some draft stuff if you dont like my statements then dont post.

bce
06-29-2010, 08:40 PM
At least GRF was funny most of the time, maybe some of the time for you but man, BCE is just...... i dont even know, i cant think of anything that low

Another wasted statement of nothing.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 08:43 PM
again the best defense of the entire decade or atleast the second half of the decade for the 4th time. And hes not in man coverage in a cover 2 so it wasnt his responsibility to keep that play from going to the house. It was someones responsibility other than his to keep that play in front of the defense

Again post some draft stuff if you dont like my statements then dont post.

You do realize that you can play man coverage in a cover 2 defense right? When someone says Cover 2, it isn't strictly a zone defense, it just means the safeties are two deep...Jesus, its like talking to a child. And a ******** one at that. Clearly you know nothing about football. Please, do us all a favor and stop posting immediately. You aren't wanted here.

bce
06-29-2010, 08:55 PM
again youre pretending to be in the huddle. Im sorry but a corner doesnt cover the slant all the way down field to the house in a cover 2.

You dont want me here. because every argument youve made ive had an answer for.

Everybody in the world knows who got burned on the play, except those who for the justification of their own agenda say otherwise. You even said it was a cover 2. hes not the last line of defense in the cover 2 on a slant pattern. You want to say he got beat on the slant thats fine, but dont say it was his responsibility to keep that play in front.

Because you know its not and calling me a child doesnt change it.

DoughBoy
06-29-2010, 08:58 PM
BCE

Greatest poster ever or the GREATEST poster ever?

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 08:59 PM
again youre pretending to be in the huddle. Im sorry but a corner doesnt cover the slant all the way down field to the house in a cover 2.

You dont want me here. because every argument youve made ive had an answer for.

Everybody in the world knows who got burned on the play, except those who for the justification of their own agenda say otherwise. You even said it was a cover 2. hes not the last line of defense in the cover 2 on a slant pattern. You want to say he got beat on the slant thats fine, but dont say it was his responsibility to keep that play in front.

Because you know its not and calling me a child doesnt change it.

Dear god man, do your eyes work? Are you capable of seeing? Go back and watch the play again. The safeties have the deep overtop coverage. Halves, we like to call it, because there are two of them dividing a field. Thats fractions, you learned it in 3rd grade. Now, on that play, Larry Fitzgerald is Ike Taylor's responsibility in single man press coverage. If Larry Fitzgerald catches an inside slant because Ike Taylor can't cover him, which he cant, its then his job to tackle him, which he doesnt. The safeties are playing the deep outside coverage, which is why Fitzgerald runs down what we like to call, in football terms "the seam". Get it yet? You are the only person in the entire world who believes that play is Troy Polamalu's fault. And thats only because you are a delusional moron.

You haven't had a single answer for any argument I've posted. The reason you aren't wanted here is because you are clouding the boards with stupidity.

bce
06-29-2010, 09:12 PM
I ask you again, is it a corners responsibility to cover a slant pattern all the way to the house in that defense, to keep that play infront of the defense. If the answer is yes, you are right. If the answer is no, you are wrong. Just post the answer yes or no.

A Perfect Score
06-29-2010, 09:14 PM
I ask you again, is it a corners responsibility to cover a slant pattern all the way to the house in that defense, to keep that play infront of the defense. If the answer is yes, you are right. If the answer is no, you are wrong. Just post the answer yes or no.

Of course its his responsibility to prevent his man from getting into the endzone. Hence the term "man coverage". How does anyone but Taylor get burned on that play? Polamalu and Ryan Clark are exactly where they should be. The so called best cover corner in history has one responsibility on that play, and its cover Larry Fitzgerald. He does not do it. Nor does he do it on the play where Louis Murphy, the 4th round rookie and not one of the best receivers in the game, torches him. Because he can't cover.

bce
06-29-2010, 09:19 PM
Is his responsibility in the cover 2 to keep a slant pattern from going to the house yes or no.

Anybody?

prock
06-29-2010, 10:06 PM
Is his responsibility in the cover 2 to keep a slant pattern from going to the house yes or no.

Anybody?

Yes. APS said it many times. It is cover 2 MAN press COVERAGE. APS answered it many times. Man coverage means you are covering the man you are lined up against. Zone coverage is where you cover an area. So in that play, Ike was lined up in MAN COVERAGE on Fitz and got burned. Get it yet?

Hines
06-29-2010, 10:21 PM
There is justification. Its at :40 seconds into that video. Ike Taylor is not a great CB, hes barely a good one. None of them have accomplished what Ike Taylor has? You mean being benched? Right, very few of them have been benched for being downright awful.

In defense of Ike on that play, he thought he had over the top help. Happens all the time. Any team with Tyrone Carter as a starting safety will get torched. Against Brandon Marshall, all they did were quick passes. In the Steelers defense, they have their corners playing at around 5-7 yards off the line.

bce
06-29-2010, 10:30 PM
Thanks hines. He was supposed to have over the top help. But of course he ran away when he defeated his argument with his own statement.

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2010, 11:03 PM
Actually, Fitz burned Ike, Clark and Polamalu on that play. Who knew he could run like that!!

And does Ike always flip to cover an opposing team's best WR??

I still think Taylor is a solid corner who's in position it seems like at least 10x a year he's in a position to make the pick, but simply has some of the worst hands ever for a DB.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 12:13 AM
Thanks hines. He was supposed to have over the top help. But of course he ran away when he defeated his argument with his own statement.


I didn't run away, I have other things to do with my evenings then spend them arguing with the likes of you. And Hines, he doesn't think he has overtop help on the slant across the middle. If you watch the play, Taylor is trying to stick him. He just can't. While he may have thought he had deep overtop coverage on the outside, on an interior route like that an elite CB should know whats coming. And he should be able to defend it. Ike clearly didn't.

Hines
06-30-2010, 12:23 AM
I didn't run away, I have other things to do with my evenings then spend them arguing with the likes of you. And Hines, he doesn't think he has overtop help on the slant across the middle. If you watch the play, Taylor is trying to stick him. He just can't. While he may have thought he had deep overtop coverage on the outside, on an interior route like that an elite CB should know whats coming. And he should be able to defend it. Ike clearly didn't.

I know he got shook in the Super Bowl. The play I was talking about was the Louis Murphey play.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 12:26 AM
I know he got shook in the Super Bowl. The play I was talking about was the Louis Murphey play.

Well sort of, but not really. On a post like that the CB is supposed to push the man to the outside, not let him inside. I understand he thought he had overhead help, that doesnt excuse the freedom Murphy was running around with in the secondary.

Hines
06-30-2010, 12:30 AM
Well sort of, but not really. On a post like that the CB is supposed to push the man to the outside, not let him inside. I understand he thought he had overhead help, that doesnt excuse the freedom Murphy was running around with in the secondary.

I know. All I'm saying was he thought Tyrone Carter was going to help him deep. When Carter bit up, it left Ike out to try, which made it look worse than what you originally think.

ThePudge
06-30-2010, 01:58 AM
Ike Taylor's been a good #1 Cornerback for the Pittsburgh Steelers for the last half of this decade, not sure I'd take it much further than that. At any given time during his career you can name a couple shutdown corners that were clearly better. Never was he the league's best corner for one year, simply put. He's been a very good player for them and he's done a good job over the years on one of the league's better (again not best) receivers in Chad Johnson/Ochocinco. A good corner that may not get enough credit for the role he's played on some great defenses, but once again, I'm not sure anyone (even his mother) thought he was the cream of the crop in the league at the Cornerback position.

The claims "bce" is making are his own opinion and you can take that as seriously as you'd like. In someone else's (more educated) opinion you'll hear Champ Bailey, Nnamdi Asomugha, etc.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 02:06 AM
Ike Taylor is a top 10 corner, and Patrick reminds me quite a bit of him.

I'm curious why Christian Ballard isn't on this list? He's 6'5 310 with a low 4.8, 35+ vert, and low 4.3 shuttle time.

descendency
06-30-2010, 02:47 AM
Um... Warner didn't throw over Ike. He threw passed him. Ike was flat beat inside. Safety help was over the top, not shallow. Not in the box. It was over the top. That ball was a straight rope that Fitz caught in stride. That's what press man coverage is designed to prevent.

The ball wasn't lobbed over the top. It was a flat rope. Fitz abused him on that play.

I don't even know how that's debatable.

edit: Visual evidence:
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9657/beaten.jpg

edit: the picture is blurry because it is a screen cap from youtube. Sorry. That blur spot near fitz's hands is the ball.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 12:58 PM
I was just negative repped for saying Ike Taylor is a top 10 corner.

Perfect Score, I'm calling you out, name TEN better.

You may want to take into consideration the number of super bowl rings Ike Taylor has as well.

prock
06-30-2010, 01:01 PM
I was just negative repped for saying Ike Taylor is a top 10 corner.

Perfect Score, I'm calling you out, name TEN better.

You may want to take into consideration the number of super bowl rings Ike Taylor has as well.

bce has a brother?

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 01:07 PM
I was just negative repped for saying Ike Taylor is a top 10 corner.

Perfect Score, I'm calling you out, name TEN better.

You may want to take into consideration the number of super bowl rings Ike Taylor has as well.

- Darrelle Revis
- Nnamdi Asamougha
- Johnathon Joseph
- Ronde Barber, even at his age
- Champ Bailey
- Brandon Flowers
- Eric Wright
- Leon Hall
- Terrence McGee
- Courtland Finnegan
- Quentin Jammer
- Terrence Newman
- Corey Webster
- Asante Samuel
- Charles Woodson
- Antoine Winfield
- Chris Gamble
- DRC

There's 18 who are superior players. On top of that, there are a plurality of youngsters who have shown more promise in their limited time in the NFL then Ike Taylor has his entire career, but I left them for for longevity purposes. Also, how does the number of Super Bowl rings Ike Taylor has reflect on him as a player? We just spent 2 pages illustrating how he almost cost them a Super Bowl.

Hurricanes25
06-30-2010, 01:26 PM
I was just negative repped for saying Ike Taylor is a top 10 corner.

Perfect Score, I'm calling you out, name TEN better.

You may want to take into consideration the number of super bowl rings Ike Taylor has as well.

And that is irrelevant. How does rings determine whether or not a CB is a good cover corner or not? I'd like to hear your answer.

CLong4Heisman
06-30-2010, 01:34 PM
Especially when you consider how fitz dominated that matchup.

Hines
06-30-2010, 01:37 PM
Especially when you consider how fitz dominated that matchup.

The second half, ya. First half Fitz didn't do anything.

TACKLE
06-30-2010, 02:40 PM
Let's get this back on track.


Check out this video.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/recruiting-football/Allen-Bailey-Darien-GA-13416;_ylt=AsKY9a08B9rXyH_l39upNOViVpR4


I'm still not convinced that he's all human. I think that he was some kind of science experiment or something. Maybe he's a new species they found deep in the jungle.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:29 PM
Why are they superior players?
How many of them are 6'1 210, run mid 4.2's, boast 42" verts, and have two super bowl rings?
Zero.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:30 PM
Taylor isn't as good as Bailey, Asomugha, Revis, Woodson, and an argument could be made for DRC, but I think DRC and Taylor are very similar players. That's it.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 09:34 PM
Why are they superior players?
How many of them are 6'1 210, run mid 4.2's, boast 42" verts, and have two super bowl rings?
Zero.

...Words can't describe the stupidity.

They are superior players because they can play their position. I don't care about their measurables. Quite frankly, despite the emphasis put on them during the evaluation process, in the NFL measurables don't mean **** if you can't play your position. With that in mind, and being that everyone except bce will agree with me on that point, we've reduced your argument to, once again, the fact that Ike Taylor has Superbowl rings and some of the corners I posted who are so clearly better then him dont. At this time, Ill direct you once again to the video TACKLE posted in which Ike Taylor almost single handedly loses the Super Bowl for the Steelers because he cant cover a simple slant route. And yes, it was his fault. So I dont give a flying **** as to whether he has 2 super bowl rings or not, that doesnt make him a good corner. Being 6'1 and 190 (no, he isnt 210 pounds) and being able to run a 4.2 does not make a good cornerback. Nice try though. Next time, before opening your mouth and calling someone out, at least make it interesting and know what you are talking about jackass.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:42 PM
My fault, 6'2 195, basically mirrors DRC measurables, plus the rings, plus the freakish attributes...Taylor is a winner..
Why are some of the corners you posted CLEARLY better?
Fitzgerald has beat every corner in the league, on multiple occasions, probably because he's one of the top 3 WR's in the game.
I'm confused on where anything you say holds any credence?
Yes, winning a super bowl is very important. That's why every team plays, to win the Super Bowl, and Taylor has done it twice.
I gave you Bailey, Asomugha, Woodson, and Revis, but that's it.

Shane P. Hallam
06-30-2010, 09:43 PM
Why are they superior players?
How many of them are 6'1 210, run mid 4.2's, boast 42" verts, and have two super bowl rings?
Zero.

Then I guess Antonio Cromartie is the best corner in the NFL?

Also, Ty Law won 3 Super Bowls. He is better than everyone!

Sniper
06-30-2010, 09:44 PM
Also, Ty Law won 3 Super Bowls. He is better than everyone!

Well, you might not be far from the truth on this one. :D

Morgan Trent is an awesome corner, too. 6'1", 200 pounds, 4.3 speed. Automatically means he's a stud.

OaklandRaider56
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
Why are they superior players?
How many of them are 6'1 210, run mid 4.2's, boast 42" verts, and have two super bowl rings?
Zero.

Vernon Gholston's a top 5 NFL OLB...

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:45 PM
Cromartie isn't even as athletic is Taylor, and he's been proven to be illiterate.
Ty Law was a top 10 corner when he won his rings, actually..top 5.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:47 PM
Neither Trent or Gholston have rings, and Taylor is still much more athletic than Trent.
Trent was not a good corner at Michigan.

Sniper
06-30-2010, 09:47 PM
By this logic, guys like Asomugha, Revis, Woodson, etc... are all below guys like Asante Samuel because Samuel has rings.

Sniper
06-30-2010, 09:47 PM
Trent was not a good corner at Michigan.

Oh, I'm fully aware.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:49 PM
They're all athletically superior to Samuel, make pro bowls, etc.

Shane P. Hallam
06-30-2010, 09:50 PM
Cromartie isn't even as athletic is Taylor, and he's been proven to be illiterate.
Ty Law was a top 10 corner when he won his rings, actually..top 5.

He still has the rings. Must still be Top 5.

Sniper
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
He still has the rings. Must still be Top 5.

They changed the rules for DBs because of Ty Law. That has to bump him up into the top three. :D

bored of education
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
Robert Horry has more rings than LeBron James.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:52 PM
When he won the rings, and the few year period after he won the rings he was top 5 yes.
Is this your best input Shane?
Agitating a poster?
Quality stuff.

bored of education
06-30-2010, 09:52 PM
They changed the rules for DBs because of Ty Law. That has to bump him up into the top three. :D

Ty Law is my favorite Michigan alum. I loved him from the moment he picked everyone off.

Sniper
06-30-2010, 09:53 PM
Robert Horry has more rings than LeBron James.

Adam Morrison > LeBron.

All he does is win.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:53 PM
Robert Horry consistently hits the big shot, and always has.
Is he a better all-around player than LeBron? Absolutely not.
Is he more clutch? Horry is arguably the most clutch playoff shooter of all time.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 09:57 PM
I'd like to know if anyone besides Told and bce disagree with my list. Furthermore, as proven by not only myself but other here as well, the rings are insignificant. There have been downright awful players in the NFL who have 2 super bowl rings. Thats not important, so I would suggest you stop using it as a centrepiece to your argument because quite frankly, it makes you look like a moron.

Moving on from that little indiscretion, and if we dont want to accept common knowledge as a credible fact, Id like to know why, or how, Ike Taylor is a premier cover corner. Neither you, nor bce, has provided any sort of legitimate evidence to suggest that he is even a good corner, let alone an elite one. On the other hand, myself and several others have posted statistics, video evidence, and overall summaries as to why he is not an elite corner. Forgive me if Im not willing to trust your opinion on this one.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 09:58 PM
I'd like to see you do the same thing.
Tape against an absolute stud WR, Fitzgerald, proves nothing.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:03 PM
From 2005 (first year as a starter)-present he's averaged..
61 tackles
15 PD

while also picking off 8 passes, sacking the qb 2 times, recovering 5 fumbles, forcing 1 fumble, winning 2 rings, and also being the most physically gifted CB in all of football.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:04 PM
Jesus, can you read? Go back and look at the other video I posted, where Taylor gets torched by a fourth round rookie. Go back and look at the stats I posted of Taylor's games against #1 WR's last year, where he failed to do anything except let them catch passes. Go back and look at the time he was benched for his atrocious play. Top 10 corners dont get benched. Here, Ill quote it for you, hopefully you are smart enough to read it, although Im not giving much hope to comprehension.

Again, I reiterate that the Steelers defense isn't the best of this decade. The 2000 Ravens alone were far superior then anything the Steelers have put together in the last 10 years. More importantly, just because you play on a good defense does not make you a good player. That is probably the largest fallacy in your argument. There have been plenty of awful players who have played on amazing defenses.

Lets do last season, for example. Ike Taylor, as the Steeler's #1 CB, would of faced off against the top receiver on the opposing team. Lets see how he did, shall we? Brandon Marshall had 11 receptions for 112 yards against the Steelers. That was Ike doing his job though. Sidney Rice had 10 for 136, but I bet that was Ike Taylor "shutting him down" as well. Greg Jennings had 5 for 118 and a TD, but Ike was probably all over him that game. Louis Murphy had 4 for 128 and 2 TDs and he was a rookie. In fact, go to :40 seconds into this video and watch him absolutely TORCH Ike Taylor. Its fun, trust me.

j-8bCUQcyCU&feature=related

I'd venture to suggest if you go back for a few seasons, there are a ton more clips just like that one which show poor Ike playing catch up. Just because you have some sort of superiority complex which makes you believe everything you say is true doesn't mean it is. Again, 43 seconds into the video, check that post by the 4th round rookie. Thats the best cover CB of the decade? Nice try. Ill take:

- Deion Sanders
- Darrelle Revis
- Nnamdi Asamougha
- Champ Bailey
- Chris McAlister
- Shawn Springs
- Antoine Winfield
- Charles Woodson
- Asante Samuel (as much as I dislike him)
- Ronde Barber
- Patrick Surtain
- Ty Law
- Troy Vincent
- Sam Madison
- Samari Rolle
- Duane Starks
- DRC
- Dre Bly
- Nate Clements
- Al Harris
- Terrence Newman
- Quentin Jammer
- Aaron Glenn
- Deltha O'Neal
- Fred Smoot
- Sheldon Brown
- Lito Shepherd
- Aeneas Williams
- Charles Tillman
- Rashean Mathis
- Darrell Green (even at 41, in 1992)
- Terrell Buckley
- Chris Gamble
- Marcus Trufant
- Courtland Finnegan
- Darrent Williams (R.I.P)
- Gary Baxter
- Johnathon Joseph
- Leon Hall
- Dexter McCleon
- Brian Kelly
- Ken Lucas
- Leigh Bodden
- DeAngelo Hall (for all his faults)
- Dunta Robinson
- Carlos Rogers
- Richard Marshall

And Im sure I forgot some. Anyways, all superior or equivalent caliber of corners as Ike Taylor.

And did you just happen to forget that Ike Taylor was benched for 5 games in 2006 for sucking so much? Of course you did. Or were you counting the bench as one of those receivers he shuts down?

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:06 PM
Keep in mind last year was the best year for QBs and WRs EVER.
I'm sure he wasn't the only top 10 corner who was burnt often by young, and not exaclty highly regarded players.
Did you mention that??? NOOO.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:06 PM
You do know that over half the qbs in the NFL last year had 3600 yards passing right?

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:08 PM
What does that have to do with my argument at all? Changing the course of the argument completely doesn't make you more right. In fact, it just proves to the rest of the posters around here who are smart enough to realize it that you don't have a leg to stand on.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:10 PM
Exactly, you're centering it on Taylor, and claiming there are 18 better than him, but aren't doing the same thing with them.
You're also not comparing stats, and you're totally throwing out the notion that maybe he helped the Steelers have two of the best D's in the last decade.
Don't sell your argument short big dog, I like where you're going with it.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:12 PM
Average up every corner you listed's production since they've been a starter, or even if they've been sat for a game or two (injured possibly, no..), their teams record, how many times they've been to the playoffs, their measurables, and athletic prowess (40, vert, etc), and then your argument will be almost fool proof.
Don't worry, I'll wait.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:13 PM
I can also assure you Ike Taylor is one of the corners very much affected by the new pro gaudy-offense rules in the NFL.
That doesn't matter either huH?

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Wow. Clearly you have no sense of how to argue. You are saying Ike Taylor is a Top 10 corner. I provide evidence to prove he isn't. Stats, videos, other posters backing me up. Also, I provide a list of players who are better then him. At this point in time, the burden of proof shifts to you. It is your responsibility to prove that those players are worse then Ike Taylor. Why would I deflate my own argument by providing counter-productive evidence?

Brian Kelly was a starting CB on the Buccaneers defense, which was undoubtedly better then anything the Steelers amassed in the past decade and is probably one of the best defenses ever assembled, but Im not sitting here arguing with you that hes a top 10 CB just because he played on that team and because they had a great defense. CASE IN POINT: BAD PLAYERS PLAY ON GOOD DEFENSES. GOOD PLAYERS PLAY ON BAD DEFENSES. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS ON A GOOD DEFENSE, DOES NOT MAKE THEM A GOOD PLAYER.

You are saying Ike Taylor is a top 10 CB. I say, prove it.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:17 PM
but WHY are they better than him?
I say prove to me why the corners you listed are better than him.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:21 PM
Ummm, I already did? Because he can't cover? Because he gets torched on a regular basis, and the players I listed don't? Because other team's #1 receivers routinely have good games against him? Because the guys are listed are better, more complete, younger, technically sound, or all of the above? Take your pick champ. You have done nothing to prove anything you have said, not so much as one single shred of evidence. You and bce both.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:21 PM
Good luck, you have a starter average of 61 tackles, 15 PD's, 2 rings, superior physical attributes, and a number of other misc. stats to compete against.
I think you'll do fine.
See you in forty-five.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:23 PM
I'm not going to put those stats together. I've made my case illustrating that Ike Taylor is not a top 10 CB, and Ive provided a list of players who are better then him. If you want to go ahead and have a look at those stats, go ahead. I've already provided evidence proving Ike Taylor isnt a good CB. Go ahead and try and deflate that argument if you want to, but at this point Im pretty sure its just you and bce who don't agree with me.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:25 PM
Every corner was burnt last year, not just Taylor, even Revis on occasion.
Taylor is 30: Barber, Woodson, Newman, Asomugha, Gamble, Bailey, Samuel, and Webster are as old if not older or a year younger.
Show me evidence of every one you listed not being burnt ever last year, being more technically sound, and..although apparently this doesn't matter..winning Super Bowls.

prock
06-30-2010, 10:27 PM
When he won the rings, and the few year period after he won the rings he was top 5 yes.
Is this your best input Shane?
Agitating a poster?
Quality stuff.

Robert Horry was top 5? Slay yourself.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:27 PM
You haven't provided evidence.
You posted video of him against a top 5 WR (when I named him a top 10 corner, so that 5 spread matters), and against a few up and coming, young guys in a year where the quarterbacks and wr's had all the advantages due to the new rules.
I'm yet to see video on your 18 listed, stats, production, team winning percentage, and other important parts of the algorithm that make each individual player better than Taylor at their position.
I'm done posting and here consider myself winner due to forfeit on your part (or just sheer laziness) until you put together the necessary items to support your statements.
Thanks.

ToldLikeItIs
06-30-2010, 10:28 PM
prock, talking about Ty Law in that post.
Horry is a top 5 playoff clutch shooter of all time absolutely.
Slay yourself? You ok buddy?

prock
06-30-2010, 10:28 PM
Tolditlikeitis, how closely related are you to bce? Is it blood relation? Step brothers? *** marriage? Something else?

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:28 PM
YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE THAT EVIDENCE! Holy ****, its like talking to a ******* ******. How can you be so blindly ignorant? So insufferably stupid? How someone can be as belligerently uninformed as you is beyond fathomable to me.

I already provided evidence proving Ike Taylor is not a good corner. You have to provide evidence that he is. The reason you haven't dont that is because you can't. Stop posting, everyone here knows you are an idiot.


Christ, its like talking to a wall. Anyone? Please? Someone tell him he's wrong.

Shane P. Hallam
06-30-2010, 10:29 PM
When he won the rings, and the few year period after he won the rings he was top 5 yes.
Is this your best input Shane?
Agitating a poster?
Quality stuff.

My best input is that Super Bowl rings don't make a player better at his position or better than someone else in terms of talent. Charles Haley is not the greatest defender of all-time despite having the most Super Bowl rings. Lay off the 40 times and height/weight combo. I watch Ike every week as a Steelers fan. Is he underrated? Yes. Is he a Top 5 Corner in the league? No. Is he a Top 10 corner in the league? Probably not. I use my eyes and judgement to judge how good I think players are, whether they be prospects or NFL players. Has that gotten me into trouble? Sure, others use statistics more than I do and feel it makes their argument foolproof, but I trust my skills as an evaluator. When someone else tries to just toss a bunch of stuff against a wall and see what sticks to make them look good, yes, I turn to sarcasm.

I don't completely agree with APS' list. I don't agree with you saying that team wins, Super Bowl rings, 40 time and height matter. The truth is, Ike doesn't have elite instincts or play recognition skills. Is he a fine #1 corner for a team? Yes. Is he and elite NFL corner? No. He makes too many mistakes for that. He doesn't make the big plays when opportunities are presented to him. He often needs help up top with tougher wideouts. That isn't my mark of an elite corner.

TACKLE
06-30-2010, 10:29 PM
The proof is in the pudding.

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A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:30 PM
You haven't provided evidence.
You posted video of him against a top 5 WR (when I named him a top 10 corner, so that 5 spread matters), and against a few up and coming, young guys in a year where the quarterbacks and wr's had all the advantages due to the new rules.
I'm yet to see video on your 18 listed, stats, production, team winning percentage, and other important parts of the algorithm that make each individual player better than Taylor at their position.
I'm done posting and here consider myself winner due to forfeit on your part (or just sheer laziness) until you put together the necessary items to support your statements.
Thanks.

Simply go through and look at the accolades of each player I posted. Not even all accolades. Just All Pro selections. Thats it. Ike Taylor has not once been selected to a first or second all pro team, where almost everyone I listed has been. And if they haven't its because they are young and up and coming.

FUNBUNCHER
06-30-2010, 11:15 PM
Based off your list, which is more opinion than anything, A Perfect Score, I would say that Chris Gamble, Johnathan Joseph, Quentin Jammer and Terence Newman are in Ike Taylor's class as cornerbacks; solid starters, but not superstars.

All of them have bouts of inconsistency and all of them can be beaten by a good route and a well-timed throw. None of them 'scare' D-coordinators.

My knock against Ike, much like the Skins Carlos Rogers, is that their inability to make a play on the ball holds them back from being considered upper tier cornerbacks.

Just as a random football fan, for Ike to be a starter for the Steelers for the better part of 7 years on an elite defensive unit, common sense tells me he has game.

The Steelers braintrust must feel Ike's positives far outweigh his poor ball skills/awareness and those times when he gets beat.

I'll put it this way, if one of your starting corners went down with an injury and your team had a chance to sign Ike Taylor, I bet 3/4 of NFL teams would sign him.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 11:19 PM
I wasn't arguing that he wasn't worth having on a roster. Clearly the people in charge in Pitt know more about football then I do. That said, I think its ridiculous to suggest he's a top 10 corner when not only myself but others as well have provided alot of evidence suggesting that he isn't.

My biggest problem with Taylor isn't his inability to capitalize on opportunities, although that is definitely a problem. Its that he lacks the ability to diagnose and react to plays in an appropriate fashion and it leaves him easily victimizable by things like double moves and play action.

And even if we remove Gamble, Joseph, Jammer, and Newman from the list, that still leaves 14 players better then Ike Taylor. That said, I still feel those 4 are superior players.

descendency
06-30-2010, 11:49 PM
By this logic, guys like Asomugha, Revis, Woodson, etc... are all below guys like Asante Samuel because Samuel has rings.

Samuel has rings but no hands for them.

TitanHope
07-01-2010, 01:06 AM
Other than QB and Head Coach, I don't see the relevance of Super Bowl rings in gauging a player's value or ability. And even then it's ticky tacky.

It's extremely hard to compare CB's. William *** had a better SYAP than Ike Taylor in 2008 (taken from players with significant snaps), and I think most would agree that Taylor is a better player than ***. So this will probably be a big waste of time, but why not?

I don't think Taylor is among the top tier of CB's for two main reasons. His inconsistency is the first. A guy can be lockdown, but if he gives up 2-3+ significant passes a game or requires help over the top, then that's a big knock on him in my view. Every guy gets beat, but having the stigma of "prone to giving up the big play" is something no elite player should have (Before anyone says, "Oh yeah? What about so-and-so. People think he's elite!" keep reading). The second reason is his lack of playmaking, which ties into the first. A player can be inconsistent and get by, but only as long as he can make up for those instances by making big plays. Taylor doesn't do that because he has hands of stone. He's only forced 1 fumble ever, and he only has 1 DEF TD to his name. If you're inconsistent, then players will keep on testing you to see if they can make something happen. If you can't make plays, then there's no way to make a guy pay for testing you. That's a recipe for mediocrity for players who are otherwise more than competant.

And no, I do not measure pass defenses as "play making ability." It's a positive play for the defense, like a TFL or batting a ball down at the LOS, but that's the extent. Unless it's in an absolute clutch situation like 3rd Down or in the endzone preventing a touchdown, but unless you're watching the game, the context isn't there. Otherwise, who cares if a CB gets a PD one play, and on the very next play, he gives up a 1st down? Nick Harper averaged 10 PD's his career - the guy's only played a full 16-game season twice and his career started when he was 26. He was 34 years old during the '08 season, in which he had 14 PD's. Harper was also a sure tackler, and has been his entire stint with the Titans. Nevertheless, he couldn't hold man-coverage to save his life, and he always needed help over the top. He was a liability more times than not.

Taylor is apparently a physical specimen, but just because he has a fappable height/weight/40-time ratio doesn't mean it's any indictment of how good he is. Cromartie has all the talent in the world, and the Chargers just shipped him off to the Jets during the offseason. There are tons of players in the NFL who are freak athletes, but that doesn't mean that they're good players.


I'm not being an Ike Taylor hater. He does what he needs to do. Try to stay on the guy long enough while that Steelers pass-rush gets after the QB. He probably is under-rated because he doesn't make the big play, which is the case for many under-rated players. But lets not make his ability out to be anything more than it is. He's a good player, but not elite.

CLong4Heisman
07-01-2010, 10:08 AM
Using the rings argument, Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino.
You get a ring for being a TEAM and not an individual. To say Ike is responsible for getting them both is just ludicrous. He was saved by Santonio Holmes and the catch from being pretty much the goat of the biggest game of his career.
He's a good piece of the defense but to say he's one of the best this decade is dumb, 0 All-Pro teams. If you wanna be the best you have to actually be on the team of best players.
HE WAS ALSO BENCHED IN 2006, not for an injury but for being terrible. What's your excuse for him?

Hines
07-01-2010, 10:24 AM
Is Ike Taylor a top 10 corner in the league? No. Is he a top 15? Yes. Like I said before, the reason why he is not on All Pro teams or Pro Bowl teams is because he has no hands. He puts himself in the right position, like that Fitz play and VJax video, but does not have the ball skills to consistantly pull the ball in. He can keep up and mirror any reciever, but is very inconsistant and has a lot of mental lapse in the game. He makes up those lack of ball skills and insticts with plus run stopping ability. He's also very good at knocking passes down. Zone coverage is not good for him. He's a man corner. If he had better ball skills, I think you'd hear his name come up as one of the better corners in the league like the talking heads at ESPN say about Cromartie. Either way, Told and bce are being really dumb if they think Taylor is in the upper class of corners in the league. I think he's in the third class. This is coming from one of Ike's biggest fans, too.