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Splat
06-29-2010, 05:40 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=tsn-chargerswrjacksonont

Chargers wide receiver Vincent Jackson (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7237/;_ylt=Apupdy5sf4wUe6EtnpjRAPY.ubYF), currently a restricted free agent who has designs of holding out for the entire season if he doesn’t get signed to a desired long term deal, may end up getting paid just by another team.

Kevin Acee, reports for the San Diego Union-Tribune (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AmLjE58vWjxlJnprw6qU688.ubYF/SIG=12rqka95e/**http%3A//www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/29/vincent-jackson-chargers-trade-seattle/)that several teams are interested in trading for budding superstar. Not surprisingly, the Seahawks, who once were in the market for wide receiver Brandon Marshall (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7868/;_ylt=Auyvrs2c.TG0Hw5wT6.lGgg.ubYF), are one of them.

Speaking of Marshall, Jackson wants to be paid better than him. After being traded by the Broncos to Miami, Marshall received a four-year deal worth $47.5 million.

The Chargers reportedly have made it clear they are interesting in moving Jackson and team officials have had discussions with the Seattle brass. The other named suitor is from Washington on the other coast, the Redskins.

What would you do?

RaiderNation
06-29-2010, 05:43 PM
They should just release him :). If I were them I would pay him though he is one of the best WR's in the game now with his combo of size and speed. Him and Rivers are a very good duo

Bengalsrocket
06-29-2010, 05:48 PM
Keep his chemistry with that offense and Rivers. He's definitely worth an equal contract to Marshall. I'm not saying he's as good as Marshall, but he'll definitely be hard to replace.

wicket
06-29-2010, 06:00 PM
his request is unreasonable, not sure how much you can get though. Given that he has about 5 more years in him id say trade him if you can get really good value, otherwise pay him, NEVER let him walk away

Splat
06-29-2010, 06:18 PM
I think the off the field stuff would make me a little iffy about locking him up long term.

J-Mike88
06-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Unless they can get a real good value for him, then they should make his ass sit out the year if he wants to play tough.

These players act like their careers are so short, so they have to go against the terms of their contract or the CBA and hold out...... well guess what, their careers ARE short so missing a whole year unpaid in the small window of their prime is not smart.

I hope the Chargers call his bluff.

Receivers are not that important anyway. Look at the Saints WR's..... no high picks.... look at the Colts last year rolling with Pierre Garcon and Austin Collie. Sidney Rice was nobody until Favre got there last year, all of a sudden he's a star.

Rivers can make a lot of WRs look good.
Plus VJ is a criminal isn't he, with at least one strike on him from Goodell?

LonghornsLegend
06-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Is he for sure going to get suspended? That's going to be a holdup in contract talks, and probably a big reason Marshall didn't get extended in Denver.


I would hate to see him leave though, Rivers would still need another #1 WR, and having that big huge target fits so well with what they want to do.


It's not easy finding another WR like him, 6'5 WR's over 225 lbs who can run like a gazelle and jump out of the stadium don't grow on trees. Even if you replace him, you won't have the same guy who can bail out a QB on bad throws. I really wouldn't want to risk jeapordizing the development of my QB who relies on that throw too much.


I still voted trade him, just because I think the NFL gets more interesting by trading elite players.

bigbluedefense
06-29-2010, 06:24 PM
Pay him. VJax is one of the best WRs in the game, especially in that system where he can just run down the field and catch the deep pass.

He's built for that system, he's the prototype WR that Rivers needs. AJ Smith knows it too, its no coincidence that he keeps getting tall WRs for Rivers to throw to and that system to build around him.

Jackson needs to be on that team. If they want to be SB contenders, pay him.

The Chargers made a mistake in the draft, they had Dez Bryant falling and instead they move up to get Ryan Mathews.

If they drafted Dez, Vincent Jackson all of a sudden becomes great trade bait.

LonghornsLegend
06-29-2010, 06:26 PM
Sidney Rice was nobody until Favre got there last year, all of a sudden he's a star.

Sidney Rice was 21 years old when he was drafted, and he broke out in his 3rd season like most WR's do. He was extremely raw, and young, and he was hindered by knee injuries in his 2nd year. It's extremely short-sighted to put all of his 3rd year success on Brett Favre.


It's not like he was a 5-6 year veteran and all of a sudden emerged out of the blue.

TACKLE
06-29-2010, 06:46 PM
Pay da man.

MetSox17
06-29-2010, 07:54 PM
Show him the $$, lots of it.

Jvig43
06-29-2010, 08:09 PM
Sidney Rice was 21 years old when he was drafted, and he broke out in his 3rd season like most WR's do. He was extremely raw, and young, and he was hindered by knee injuries in his 2nd year. It's extremely short-sighted to put all of his 3rd year success on Brett Favre.


It's not like he was a 5-6 year veteran and all of a sudden emerged out of the blue.

He also didnt mention Wayne/Dallas Clark for the colts, or Colston Shockey for the Saints.

PACKmanN
06-29-2010, 09:03 PM
trade him, he isn't even on Marshall's level and has become overrated by the fans

TitanHope
06-29-2010, 09:08 PM
Their passing game is their strength. It'd be a bad idea to mess with their success.

If they can get a deal similar to what the Broncos got for Marshall, then that may be a solid alternative. They'll probably have to get in position to take one of the top WR's in the upcoming draft to replace him though, unless they struggle this season.

JHasley10
06-29-2010, 09:12 PM
Jackson is damn near unstoppable in this offense. he cant be doubled cause of Gates and Floyd and he is fast as hell for a guy 6'5 240.

the thing about him is HE CANT STAY OUTTA TROUBLE. he is one mishap away from being suspended for the entire year. as a chargers fan id love for him to come back, but this is a business.

im more scared of losing Marcus Mcneil over Jackson tho

PoopSandwich
06-29-2010, 09:17 PM
trade him to the browns please.

JHasley10
06-29-2010, 09:20 PM
trade him to the browns please.

for joe thomas and you got yourself a deal !

Shiver
06-29-2010, 10:16 PM
I think they should pay him, but I expect him to be wearing a different jersey come September. AJ Smith is stubborn and will get rid of anyone. It would be a boneheaded decision though.

J-Mike88
06-29-2010, 10:57 PM
Sidney Rice was 21 years old when he was drafted, and he broke out in his 3rd season like most WR's do. It's extremely short-sighted to put all of his 3rd year success on Brett Favre.
So do you believe he'd have similar success in season 4 with Tarvarris Jackson back at the helm?
Look, I hate Favre, but come on..... without Favre, Rice is still just a Dwayne Bowe or Donnie Avery at the moment instead of a top-notch fantasy WR.

J-Mike88
06-29-2010, 10:58 PM
trade him, he isn't even on Marshall's level and has become overrated by the fans
^T^H^I^S If they can get close to what Marshall fetched, they should ship his ass to Seattle or Washington. Then watch him get arrested again and be suspended for a year.

Paranoidmoonduck
06-29-2010, 11:07 PM
How is this even a question? Pay the man. You have a great young quarterback who has good chemistry with Jackson and your offense is basically a running game away from being Superbowl caliber. Not even to mention the fact that there's not even a salary cap right now.

If they released him it would take all of an hour for someone to give him the contract he wants.

Matthew Jones
06-29-2010, 11:36 PM
This is a very tough question for me to answer - on the one hand, he's a great young player who's had a lot of success and certainly deserves a new contract. At the same time however, that's a whole lot of money to pay to a wide receiver, a position which is highly dependent on other positions for success. I don't know if I'd be willing to pay any wide receiver that kind of money, but if San Diego would, I would find it tough to blame them.

Xenos
06-30-2010, 12:11 AM
How is this even a question? Pay the man. You have a great young quarterback who has good chemistry with Jackson and your offense is basically a running game away from being Superbowl caliber. Not even to mention the fact that there's not even a salary cap right now.

If they released him it would take all of an hour for someone to give him the contract he wants.
I think that's the misunderstanding that's happening right now. Just because there's no salary cap doesn't mean that there still aren't rules set in place. The CBA is a big part of why guys like VJ and McNeill aren't extended yet. Heck, you know there's issues when even Al Davis, Jerry Jones, and Dan Snyder aren't going crazy with the money in a capless year.

The other issue is VJ himself. The guy is another violation away from missing a full year. He probably should have been extended already if it wasn't for his boneheaded mistakes off the field like getting a DUI before the Steelers' game and driving to the Jets' playoff game on a suspended license. In addition, look at someone like Miles Austin who has already signed his tender and is willing to get on the field and show why he should be given that contract extension (besides not having any off the field problems like VJ).

vidae
06-30-2010, 12:12 AM
The Chiefs fan in me says to trade him out of the AFC West! This division doesn't need good receivers as far as I'm concerned! :D

LonghornsLegend
06-30-2010, 12:49 AM
So do you believe he'd have similar success in season 4 with Tarvarris Jackson back at the helm?
Look, I hate Favre, but come on..... without Favre, Rice is still just a Dwayne Bowe or Donnie Avery at the moment instead of a top-notch fantasy WR.

I don't know if he'd have the same success, or numbers as good. Obviously a good QB increases better numbers for a WR no matter what situation, but let's not attribute Rice breaking out due to Favre.


Most WR's go through a developmental period, and one being as young and raw as Rice was when he was drafted makes him no different. He had 4 TD's in each of his first two seasons and only started a total of 7 games those years, not even including how he had consistent knee issues in year 2 he could of broken out that year.


I'm not saying Favre didn't help, but to act like the only reason he's a star is because of Favre is just plain wrong. He was a nobody because he was only in his 2nd year.


What about Mike Sims-Walker, Roddy White, and Braylon Edwards? Did they all acquire pro bowl QB's in their 3rd season that made them go from nobodies? Some guys just achieve that status in their 2nd season, some in their 3rd, or even longer...Rice has always had talent and I believe could of made the pro bowl no matter who was the QB.

descendency
06-30-2010, 01:02 AM
Elite Veteran QBs don't need big time WRs. They need chemistry with their guys. Trade him for toothpicks to the Rams.

McBain
06-30-2010, 01:34 AM
To me it boils down to 3 options for Aye Jay Smithe and Sab Dieagu Cheergers.

1. They can trade him for something. This something could be an anything so i will you use 'x' as its classifier. Now lets go ahead and throw this into slope intercept formula.

y=the production of the future player whether acquired person for person or acquired via the draft.

mx=the player and some other ****

b=something entirely different.

y = mx + b

So, as you can see this definitively proves the Chargers should do something.

2. They can re-sign him. If they re-sign him this will promote continuity and team chemistry. Perhaps it will lead the small nucleus of young San Diego Chargers to undergo a process known as mitosis, the cells will divide in cytokinesis and expand until they overwhelm or outlast the other football organisms and prove they're are the fittest.

3. The last option is of course: A rocket ship full of explosives shot directly at the moon. Finally at long last we will be rid of the moons' abject TYRANNY!

Halsey
06-30-2010, 07:44 AM
Elite Veteran QBs don't need big time WRs.

Don't underestimate the importance of surrounding a QB with talented pass catchers. There's a reason why good organizations like the Patriots, Steelers, Colts and Saints will spend high Draft picks and big bucks on pass catchers.

thenewfeature06
06-30-2010, 09:41 AM
Obvious question, paying him will pay off in the end. You don't want to trade a top 10 WR right now and then piss off Rivers. If they trade him, they sure are confident that they can still be up there but without him the passing attack is not much. Though if it is him or Marcus Mcneal to do this to, unless you can pay both Id go with the LT.

Then a little dropoff but still some production with a better team...sign T.O.

From what I think I know though the Chargers front office is dumb and will get rid of him for a 2 seconds or a first...maybe they can get 1 of the big time wrs next year but doubtful

Brent
06-30-2010, 09:56 AM
http://www.funeshirts.com/cpimages/designs/tnails/pay_this_man.jpg

AntoinCD
06-30-2010, 10:04 AM
I think this all depends on what offensive philosophy the Chargers want to go by in the near future. Keeping Norv Turner would likely indicate they will keep Jackson as they have a high level passing game and need the weapons to make it work. However if they go back towards a more run orientated offense, which is possible with the drafting of Ryan Mathews, then trading him may be beneficial. If they could get a 1st for Jackson, keep Marcus McNeil and upgrade their defense with the extra pick then I believe they would consider it.

If I had the choice I would definitely pay him though. In Rivers they have a top end QB and I don't see the logic in getting rid of some of his weapons.

McBain
06-30-2010, 10:57 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/29/report-shanahan-a-big-fan-of-vincent-jackson/

PFT says Shanahan is a "big fan" or Jacksons. Sounds like pft making up news but if they do end up being right and we do trade for this double dui'd awaiting suspension - above average receiver looking for big money - then we better not give up much. (4th rd or less)

If someone makes the logical connection and suggests we exchange idiots (Albert for VJ) we should get the pick(s) from SD.

Splat
06-30-2010, 11:01 AM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/29/report-shanahan-a-big-fan-of-vincent-jackson/

PFT says Shanahan is a "big fan" or Jacksons. Sounds like pft making up news but if they do end up being right and we do trade for this double dui'd awaiting suspension - above average receiver looking for big money - then we better not give up much. (4th rd or less)

If someone makes the logical connection and suggests we exchange idiots (Albert for VJ) we should get the pick(s) from SD.

Wait what?

McBain
06-30-2010, 11:07 AM
Wait what?

That's a very clever way of pointing out you disagree. Nice work!

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 11:14 AM
I think the thing about Jackson is that he's a bit of a one trick pony. Hes big and hes fast, but he isnt overly tough across the middle and really, hes one of those guys where you just toss it up and let him go get it. There arent really alot of offenses where thats good enough anymore, but luckily for him he found one in the Chargers that allows him to do just that. And thats exactly what the Chargers need him to do. I think it would be mutually beneficial for both sides to get a deal done, because quite frankly this is the situation which allows both parties to flourish best. Just like there arent many offenses which allow Jackson to just run under the ball, there arent alot of receivers who can do it like he can, so San Diego would be wise to pay the man his money and watch him and Rivers continue to bitchslap corners for 5 years.

zachsaints52
06-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Saints will spend high Draft picks and big bucks on pass catchers.

We have one first round WR, and no high priced WR. Must be DREW BREEESSSSS.

jballa838
06-30-2010, 12:18 PM
once again GM's try and hardball and end up losing trade value compared to what they could have got had this not have turned into a firesale basically.

Splat
06-30-2010, 12:22 PM
I think SD would be more willing to lock him up long term if he could stay out of trouble off the field, it's kinda on him.

Splat
06-30-2010, 12:26 PM
Bears among teams interested in Vincent Jackson (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/30/bears-among-teams-interested-in-vincent-jackson/)

Brent
06-30-2010, 01:17 PM
I thought big WRs didn't really fit the Martz offense

Scotty D
06-30-2010, 01:31 PM
NE should see if the Chargers will trade him in the AFC. They have an extra first and second next year.

Halsey
06-30-2010, 02:40 PM
We have one first round WR, and no high priced WR. Must be DREW BREEESSSSS.

The Saints have a 1st round WR, a 2nd round WR, a #2 overall draft pick RB who catches a lot of passes, a TE they spent 2nd and 5th round picks on. Also, Colston signed an extension a few years ago that pays him something like 3 mill per year.

GB12
06-30-2010, 02:58 PM
The Saints have a 1st round WR, a 2nd round WR, a #2 overall draft pick RB who catches a lot of passes, a TE they spent 2nd and 5th round picks on. Also, Colston signed an extension a few years ago that pays him something like 3 mill per year.

All good points, except that $3 million a year is nothing.

Halsey
06-30-2010, 03:20 PM
All good points, except that $3 million a year is nothing.

Just because there's a lot of money in the NFL doesn't mean 3 mill is nothing. It's still 3 mill. That's over double the average NFL salary. Regardless, the Saints clearly spend a lot of resources on pass catchers.

PACKmanN
06-30-2010, 03:49 PM
He isn't worthly of a 10 million per year contractl; he hasn't been a top 5 wideout in this league, has he even been a top 10? Ship him to the Redskins for Devin Thomas, a 2nd, and 4th

Splat
06-30-2010, 03:51 PM
He isn't worthly of a 10 million per year contractl; he hasn't been a top 5 wideout in this league, has he even been a top 10? Ship him to the Redskins for Devin Thomas, a 2nd, and 4th

Your joking right? I think some people are judging VJ's game by his stats which isn't fair, Rivers spreads the ball around alot.

I don't see him as a top five WR and don't think he should be paid as such but top 10 is another story.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 03:58 PM
I dunno, I could probably name 10 WR I'd rather have on my team then Vincent Jackson, but I dont think the Chargers could say the same. Hes perfect for what they do.

bantx
06-30-2010, 04:18 PM
10 over VJ? Name em.

Anyways, I'd pay McNeil before I would pay VJ. Don't get me wrong I love VJ he is a beast and hard to play 1v1 on, but McNeil is more important for me. We have another month to see what happens, AJ won't budge he's not dumb and won't care for these hold outs. He could move on and forget about it the next day. What I think will happen is he'll miss the pre-season and then sign and play the rest of the season after his suspension. If he does have it? I'm not sure, but if he cared that much about money and a contract he wouldn't sit out an entire year with no pay.

Brothgar
06-30-2010, 04:23 PM
Depends on what you get for him.

J-Mike88
06-30-2010, 04:30 PM
I dunno, I could probably name 10 WR I'd rather have on my team then Vincent Jackson.
I agree with that. Vincent Jackson is good, certainly not elite or anywhere near that level.

BETTER NOW
Andre
Calvin
Fitzgerald
Jennings
Wayne
Moss
Welker
Marshall
Steve Smith (Carolina)
Boldin
Colston
Rice
Austin
85 (maybe)
Roddy White (maybe)

WORTH MORE
Crabtree
Dez Bryant
Desean Jackson
Jordyzzzzzz

I might be forgetting some too.
If Braylon Edwards could catch, he'd be ranked. But as a WR, helps to catch.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 04:34 PM
I agree with that. Vincent Jackson is good, certainly not elite or anywhere near that level.

BETTER NOW
Andre
Calvin
Fitzgerald
Jennings
Wayne
Moss
Welker
Marshall
Steve Smith (Carolina)
Boldin
Colston
Rice
Austin
85 (maybe)
Roddy White (maybe)

WORTH MORE
Crabtree
Dez Bryant
Desean Jackson
Jordyzzzzzz

I might be forgetting some too.
If Braylon Edwards could catch, he'd be ranked. But as a WR, helps to catch.

Of course, factoring my own personal preferences and what I like in a WR, I would probably go with

1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Brandon Marshall
4. Randy Moss
5. Calvin Johnson
6. Anquan Boldin
7. Steve Smith (CAR)
8. Roddy White
9. Reggie Wayne
10. Desean Jackson

Yeah, that looks about right.

Brothgar
06-30-2010, 04:38 PM
10 over VJ? Name em.

Anyways, I'd pay McNeil before I would pay VJ. Don't get me wrong I love VJ he is a beast and hard to play 1v1 on, but McNeil is more important for me. We have another month to see what happens, AJ won't budge he's not dumb and won't care for these hold outs. He could move on and forget about it the next day. What I think will happen is he'll miss the pre-season and then sign and play the rest of the season after his suspension. If he does have it? I'm not sure, but if he cared that much about money and a contract he wouldn't sit out an entire year with no pay.

In no particular order
1. Randy Moss
2. Brandon Marshall
3. Ocho
4. Reggie Wayne
5. Andre Johnson
6. Megatron
7. Larry Fitzgerald
8. Steve Smith
9. DeSean Jackson
10. Crabs

Brent
06-30-2010, 04:44 PM
Crabs

Crabtree
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/09/21/alg_49ers_michael_crabtree.jpg

Crabtree Approved

Vikes99ej
06-30-2010, 05:24 PM
Trade his drunk ass. I mean, just think about the WR class next year. I came five times.

Paranoidmoonduck
06-30-2010, 05:37 PM
Unless the Chargers get a first round pick for Jackson, they will almost certainly miss out on the premier receiver talent in the 2011 draft.

Honestly, the whole idea of ranking Jackson and arguing his salary as a result is pretty detached from the reality. It's not like San Diego is choosing between Jackson and any other wide receiver in the NFL, they're choosing between having Jackson and not having Jackson.

When it comes to running a go-route, beating double coverage, and making the catch, Jackson is barely behind the top tier of receivers, and I wouldn't really have an issue with someone ranking him in that top tier. He's not the focal point of that offense, but he gets open enough that if they wanted to take away from Gates and Floyd and send more balls his way, he'd be posting sensational numbers.

As a Raider fan, I hope they trade him, but it'd be a dumb move.

bantx
06-30-2010, 05:40 PM
Crabs really? I mean he's good, but over VJ I'd agree with half of the players on your list, but towards the end it seems you're just naming them to put over VJ. For as big of a player he is who can move like him, I'd choose him over a lot of players, he's creates mismatches all over the field, look beyond the stats and see how he opens up the passing game for others. You can call that the homer in me, but no homer intended I think he breaks the top 10 easily.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 05:49 PM
Crabs really? I mean he's good, but over VJ I'd agree with half of the players on your list, but towards the end it seems you're just naming them to put over VJ. For as big of a player he is who can move like him, I'd choose him over a lot of players, he's creates mismatches all over the field, look beyond the stats and see how he opens up the passing game for others. You can call that the homer in me, but no homer intended I think he breaks the top 10 easily.

Meh, to each their own. I can easily buy how one might put him in the top 10, and really there isnt a logical argument as to why he shouldnt be there. I think alot of it is personal/scheme preference, and I dont think anyone posting in this thread is gunna be overly critical of you putting VJ in the top 10.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
06-30-2010, 06:19 PM
Make him sit on the bench.

Sincerely,
The colts tiny cornerbacks.

BeerBaron
06-30-2010, 06:52 PM
Wow. Some of your lists of guys you say are better than Jackson are just insane. Crabtree? Seriously? Dez "a ******* rookie" Bryant?"

Jackson is a seriously physically imposing guy to try and defend, and he has the size to be a QBs best friend. He's also still quite young.

I'd put up #1 WR for him. He certainly would have gotten it on the open market too if the CBA didn't change.

Splat
06-30-2010, 07:04 PM
Vincent Jackson working out with McNabb (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/30/vincent-jackson-working-out-with-mcnabb/)

LonghornsLegend
06-30-2010, 07:16 PM
I agree with that. Vincent Jackson is good, certainly not elite or anywhere near that level.

BETTER NOW
Andre
Calvin
Fitzgerald
Jennings
Wayne
Moss
Welker
Marshall
Steve Smith (Carolina)
Boldin
Colston
Rice
Austin
85 (maybe)
Roddy White (maybe)

WORTH MORE
Crabtree
Dez Bryant
Desean Jackson
Jordyzzzzzz

I might be forgetting some too.
If Braylon Edwards could catch, he'd be ranked. But as a WR, helps to catch.



Worth More? What does that, or that section even mean?


Wes Welker over VJ? Welker is great at what he does, but he doesn't roll double coverage to him to open up everyone else, he is a very good WR but I'm in no way taking a guy who pretty much HAS to play in the slot over a guy like VJ.

BeerBaron
06-30-2010, 07:18 PM
Worth More? What does that, or that section even mean?


Wes Welker over VJ? Welker is great at what he does, but he doesn't roll double coverage to him to open up everyone else, he is a very good WR but I'm in no way taking a guy who pretty much HAS to play in the slot over a guy like VJ.

Bravo. Reading his list makes me angrier and angrier each time......it's almost got the vein in my temple throbbing.

Scotty D
06-30-2010, 07:18 PM
Plus "Jordyzzzz" better be a joke.

bantx
06-30-2010, 07:37 PM
Vincent Jackson working out with McNabb (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/30/vincent-jackson-working-out-with-mcnabb/)

VJ's Agents trying to stir stuff up? I'll believe it when he's traded.

PACKmanN
06-30-2010, 08:11 PM
Your joking right? I think some people are judging VJ's game by his stats which isn't fair, Rivers spreads the ball around alot.

I don't see him as a top five WR and don't think he should be paid as such but top 10 is another story.

Devin's value is a 4th round pick, so a 2nd and two 4ths is the same as getting a 2nd and 3rd for him; he really isn't worth more than a 2nd and 3rd

Splat
06-30-2010, 08:16 PM
What makes Devin Thomas worth a 4th round pick?

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 08:21 PM
Im personally a Devin Thomas fan and I think he's a bit similar to Brandon Marshall. I believe that if McNabb is going to have anyone to throw to on that offense besides Cooley, its gunna be Thomas. I dont see any benefit for the Chargers in trading for a guy like Devin Thomas though, not when they already have VJ.

PACKmanN
06-30-2010, 08:35 PM
What makes Devin Thomas worth a 4th round pick?

what made Groves worthly of a 5th? it's each to his own

J-Mike88
06-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Worth More? What does that, or that section even mean?
Value.... put Dez, Crabtree, and Jackson on the open market, and you can't tell me with a straight face that Jackson would command as high of a pick as you could get for either Crabtree or Dez Bryant.

Now I'm not saying those youngsters are better right now, which is why I didn't put them on my top ten list.

The Chargers are my favorite AFC team and I drafted VJ last year in Fantasy, then traded him in about week 10 before he melted down in production the last 5 games or so. So I like Vincent. But he's good, not great, and he's a drunk with 2 strikes on him, and he's expecting crazy money. I'd ship his ass to the highest bidder that's got a crappy QB, and see how much he misses Philip Rivers and that offense. See how he does catching passes from Jake Delhomme. Send him to Cleveland.

PACKmanN
06-30-2010, 08:56 PM
guys with that size recieve extra attention than others, just because he's 6'5 and 230 doesn't make him a top 10 wideout.

btw, no ****.

bantx
06-30-2010, 09:00 PM
Of course his size doesn't make him a top 10 no one said that, it was added that his athleticism and speed added with that size is a mismatch for any DB. It's proven if you watch at least one of this game, he opens up the field for other targets, no one said his size alone got him into the top 10.

Of course Dez an unproven WR , from a guy who made a thread about Emmit vs Barry, he's way more valuable than a proven VJ.

LonghornsLegend
06-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Value.... put Dez, Crabtree, and Jackson on the open market, and you can't tell me with a straight face that Jackson would command as high of a pick as you could get for either Crabtree or Dez Bryant.




I'm not sure what point your trying to make. Of course a WR who was just picked in the 1st round months ago is going to garner at least a 1st round pick in return before he even steps foot in Training Camp, that'd be the same in nearly every situation. I don't know what that has to do with anything were talking about here or why it was important to bring that up.



guys with that size recieve extra attention than others, just because he's 6'5 and 230 doesn't make him a top 10 wideout.

btw, no ****.

Who are you referring to, me?


If you are, I never said his size makes him top 10, nor did I ever say he was top 10 one time. But your crazy if you would take Welker of VJ if your starting a team and your picking your first WR to build around. Welker isn't a WR you build around, he's a luxury that's nice to have and very good at what he does but if you put the stat sheet aside there is no way you take him over VJ.


Besides that point, just because you have size doesn't mean you get extra attention. That's just a ridiculous point, you know how many big, tall, WR's in the league are trash and never amount to anything? It takes alot more then size to garner attention and double teams.

A Perfect Score
06-30-2010, 10:05 PM
Clarence Moore can attest to the fact that you have to be more then big and fast to garner attention in the NFL.

Shiver
06-30-2010, 10:40 PM
Those lists fail. Vincent Jackson is easily top-10 and I would peg him 4th behind Johnson, Fitzgerald and Marshall.

PACKmanN
06-30-2010, 10:42 PM
I'm not sure what point your trying to make. Of course a WR who was just picked in the 1st round months ago is going to garner at least a 1st round pick in return before he even steps foot in Training Camp, that'd be the same in nearly every situation. I don't know what that has to do with anything were talking about here or why it was important to bring that up.





Who are you referring to, me?


If you are, I never said his size makes him top 10, nor did I ever say he was top 10 one time. But your crazy if you would take Welker of VJ if your starting a team and your picking your first WR to build around. Welker isn't a WR you build around, he's a luxury that's nice to have and very good at what he does but if you put the stat sheet aside there is no way you take him over VJ.


Besides that point, just because you have size doesn't mean you get extra attention. That's just a ridiculous point, you know how many big, tall, WR's in the league are trash and never amount to anything? It takes alot more then size to garner attention and double teams.

i wasn't refering to you, but how many people fall in love with the 6'4+ wideouts because of ZOMGZZZZ HE CAN GO DEEP AND OUT JUMP ANYONE!111!111

you would be lying to yourself if you don't believe that a 6'2+ 220+ wideout gets more attention than a 6'0 guy

LonghornsLegend
06-30-2010, 11:12 PM
you would be lying to yourself if you don't believe that a 6'2+ 220+ wideout gets more attention than a 6'0 guy


Dwayne Jarrett: 6'4 220 lbs


Desean Jackson: 5'10 175 lbs



I'm not really sure why how big or tall a WR is has anything to do with garnering attention. Do you think defenses pay extra attention to guys like Dwayne Jarrett, Ernest Wilford, and Reggie Williams just because their big?


Not really sure I'm catching your drift here.

dan77733
06-30-2010, 11:30 PM
I think that the Chargers should keep him but not pay him. Jackson holding out will only hurt him and since he's on the verge of getting suspended for four games this season, holding out to week ten and then serving the suspension will mean that he wont have credit for an accrued season meaning that he'll still be in the same situation next year.

He should have just signed his tender before SD lowered it and just play because once the new CBA kicks in, he would have most likely been a UFA in March 2011 anyway and with McNeill in the same situation, its highly unlikely that they will franchise him over McNeill in 2011 so long story short, Jackson should have just signed his RFA tender before it was lowered.

And there's no way in hell that Jackson should be paid more than Marshall. If anything, he should be about $10m lower if not more.

Rosebud
07-01-2010, 12:01 AM
If the chargers let him go they'd be giving up on contending. Gates is a beast and all, but without those trees on the outside Rivers would come down to earth and that offense would be a lot less explosive, which is a problem with an OL that does so poorly at run blocking and a defense that's still being rebuilt.

bolts2388
07-01-2010, 03:47 AM
Well whoever he's playing for in 2010, they're going to be without him for at least 2, but more likely 4 games.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/30/vincent-jackson-braces-for-four-game-suspension/

Per a league source, a team with interest in Jackson has learned that he's expecting a four-game suspension from the league office.

In 2007, then-Chiefs defensive end Jared Allen received a four-game suspension after a second DUI. On appeal, the league reduced his sanction to two games.

Another interesting quote:

After that arrest, Jackson expressed defiance and indignation; if the league has heard the audio of his remarks, we doubt that Jackson will earn any brownie points.

dannyz
07-01-2010, 04:03 AM
Trade him and then trade up to get one of the big 4 WR's.

bigbluedefense
07-01-2010, 06:57 AM
Vincent Jackson is a beast, I'm surprised at how he's being viewed on here.

We can argue about VJax all day, but the point remains, he's perfect for SD, and SD is perfect for him.

They mutually benefit from their relationship. Both sides lose in this stalemate.

If the Chargers replace him, they need to replace him with another big WR, and its no guaranatee they find that in the draft. They had their chance when Dez Bryant was slipping, instead of moving up for Matthews they should have went after Dez Bryant.

But what's done is done, and now they have to fix this mess.

Hines
07-01-2010, 10:28 AM
He's officially been suspended 3 games for violating the league's personal conduct policy.

http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter/status/17499600867

yourfavestoner
07-01-2010, 10:37 AM
I think that the Chargers should keep him but not pay him. Jackson holding out will only hurt him and since he's on the verge of getting suspended for four games this season, holding out to week ten and then serving the suspension will mean that he wont have credit for an accrued season meaning that he'll still be in the same situation next year.

He should have just signed his tender before SD lowered it and just play because once the new CBA kicks in, he would have most likely been a UFA in March 2011 anyway and with McNeill in the same situation, its highly unlikely that they will franchise him over McNeill in 2011 so long story short, Jackson should have just signed his RFA tender before it was lowered.

And there's no way in hell that Jackson should be paid more than Marshall. If anything, he should be about $10m lower if not more.

That's the big kicker in all of this.

I mean, I'm not even sure GMs and the like either have permission from their owner's to sign these guys to extensions. What incentive does an owner have to shell out a bunch of money, when he knows that he can basically force the player to play for pennies on the dollar this year, and then deal with it next year after the lockout, where player contracts are expect to decrease. A lot.

Also, I'm not even sure GMs know (or are willing to figure it out, since the entire structure is likely to change in a year) how to negotiate a new contract without violating things like the 30% rule and a host of other variables we likely don't know about.

There's just very, very, very little incentive for teams to sign anybody to an extension right now.

yourfavestoner
07-01-2010, 10:39 AM
He's officially been suspended 3 games for violating the league's personal conduct policy.

http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter/status/17499600867

Dummy should have signed his tender before it dropped. No way he's getting an extension now.

Hines
07-01-2010, 10:46 AM
Dummy should have signed his tender before it dropped. No way he's getting an extension now.

I don't think this will limit his chance of getting an extention. I do think it limits how much money he'll make now. This hurt him dollar wise IMO.

A Perfect Score
07-01-2010, 10:52 AM
Maybe with the Chargers. Lets not forget that off field issues didnt exactly cost Jared Allen or Brandon Marshall any money with their respective new teams. If VJ gets moved, you bet your ass hes gunna get paid.

yourfavestoner
07-01-2010, 11:00 AM
I don't think this will limit his chance of getting an extention. I do think it limits how much money he'll make now. This hurt him dollar wise IMO.

I think it pretty much kills his chance of getting an extension before the lockout/new CBA. 75% of guys weren't gonna get one anyways, for the reasons I stated in my post a couple spots up. They'd extend McNeil at this point before Jackson.

LizardState
07-01-2010, 11:05 AM
Pay him. Even if they miss him if he's suspended for his DUIs, he & Rivers have the chemsitry & they can't throw it to Gates every 3rd down.

A Perfect Score
07-01-2010, 11:14 AM
Pay him. Even if they miss him if he's suspended for his DUIs, he & Rivers have the chemsitry & they can't throw it to Gates every 3rd down.

Oh thats where you are wrong sir. They can throw it to Gates every 3rd down. And he will catch it. Because hes Antonio Gates.

Brothgar
07-01-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't pay him unless he goes significantly down from the figure he wants.

goodlookin
07-01-2010, 03:04 PM
how about a three way trade...pats send mankins to pitt, pitt sends a 1st or 2nd rd pick to the bolts and bolts send jackson to NE?....BOOM

Brothgar
07-01-2010, 03:21 PM
how about a three way trade...pats send mankins to pitt, pitt sends a 1st or 2nd rd pick to the bolts and bolts send jackson to NE?....BOOM

No doubt you are a Pats fan. Why would the Steelers trade a 1st or 2nd for Mankins? They got a first for Seymore. The steelers would rather spend that first or second and keep Jackson for themselves with the less than ideal WR situation.

goodlookin
07-01-2010, 03:59 PM
yes sweet pea, I am a pats fan, I approach this from things that make us better. Considering the steelers wont have a qb to throw the ball for the 1st 6 games so they will be running the ball quite a bit and when they do have a qb they cant protect him, itd be better to build inside out for them.

descendency
07-01-2010, 05:36 PM
Crabs really? I mean he's good, but over VJ I'd agree with half of the players on your list, but towards the end it seems you're just naming them to put over VJ.

This would be so much funnier of a discussion if his initials were VD. Then the debate would be which is better: Crabs or VD.

Oh, and I'll take Crabtree. I don't really see why so many people love an average #1 WR if that.

LonghornsLegend
07-01-2010, 05:46 PM
Oh, and I'll take Crabtree. I don't really see why so many people love an average #1 WR if that.

Not to say I wouldn't take Crabtree longterm, but realistically what has he shown at this point to say he's more then an average #1 WR? We can assume he'll be more, but we'd be doing the same with VJ too.

bantx
07-01-2010, 06:53 PM
If you're just looking at stats alone, sure he'll look average. But if you know what he does for other players and his physical presence then thats a different story. Also his stats are average because Rivers will spread the ball around to everyone, and not just one player.

Splat
07-01-2010, 06:58 PM
If you're just looking at stats alone, sure he'll look average. But if you know what he does for other players and his physical presence then thats a different story. Also his stats are average because Rivers will spread the ball around to everyone, and not just one player.

This. As a Chiefs fan I keep an a eye on SD all year and dude is a beast, a jackass off the field but dude can ball.

Xenos
07-02-2010, 03:04 AM
If the chargers let him go they'd be giving up on contending. Gates is a beast and all, but without those trees on the outside Rivers would come down to earth and that offense would be a lot less explosive, which is a problem with an OL that does so poorly at run blocking and a defense that's still being rebuilt.
Really? Rivers seemed to have done quite well his first year starting with 5'11" Eric Parker and 6'0" Keenan McCardell. He also exploded in 2008 with a 5'11" Chris Chambers as well. People seem to have this weird misconception that he just throws it up and that's all he needs to do as a QB because of VJ's size. That's hardly the picture at all. Rivers uses his receivers to his advantage whether it's size or speed or jumping ability or anything else.

Dam8610
07-02-2010, 04:05 AM
As a Colts fan, I hope they trade him to the NFC.

J-Mike88
07-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Those lists fail. Vincent Jackson is easily top-10 and I would peg him 4th behind Johnson, Fitzgerald and Marshall.
False. You must be VJ's agent or his mother.
There's not ONE GM in the NFL who would take Vincent Jackson over Calvin Johnson. He's not the 4th best WR in the NFL, not even close.

That's talent/production/character/net worth, everything.

His talent isn't top 5.
His production isn't top 5.
He character isn't top 50 (hello suspension).

Production:
Even last year when VJ supposedly broke-out, he had fewer yards receiving than Santonio Holmes did, and almost 200 less than Miles Austin, a guy who really didn't start until month 2 of the season.

Roddy White had more catches and 2 more TDs than VJ did, and that's in a year in which Matt Ryan was hurt.

Randy Moss' stats blew him away last year. Moss had more catches, more yards, and 44% more TDs.

Marques Colston's stats are very similar, but Colston isn't a criminal who's suspended for it either. Still, I don't see anyone calling Colston a top-4 WR.

Sidney Rice had 15 more catches and almost 200 yards more than VJ did, and Rice is younger.

Again, I hate to argue on behalf of any Minnesota Viking, but to say Vince Jackson is better than every WR other than Andre, LF, and Marshall is either suspicious, or just an April 1st post.

And I haven't even mentioned Greg Jennings, Steve Smith, or Anquan Boldin. Talent & Production-wise, I don't think a case can be made that Jackson is better than any of those 3 guys. Put Steve Smith on San Diego the past 3 seasons instead of Carolina with horse**** Jake Delhomme, and put VJ in Smith's shoes in Carolina.

J-Mike88
07-02-2010, 01:29 PM
This. As a Chiefs fan I keep an a eye on SD all year and dude is a beast, a jackass off the field but dude can ball.
Right, sounds kinda like Jared Allen as a Chief, except Jared Allen was an All Pro and still is.
But both guy's off-field jackassness ultimately got them traded.... (I'm still mad at the Chiefs for that)

bantx
07-02-2010, 01:31 PM
False. You must be VJ's agent or his mother.
There's not ONE GM in the NFL who would take Vincent Jackson over Calvin Johnson. He's not the 4th best WR in the NFL, not even close.

That's talent/production/character/net worth, everything.

His talent isn't top 5.
His production isn't top 5.
He character isn't top 50 (hello suspension).

Production:
Even last year when VJ supposedly broke-out, he had fewer yards receiving than Santonio Holmes did, and almost 200 less than Miles Austin, a guy who really didn't start until month 2 of the season.

Roddy White had more catches and 2 more TDs than VJ did, and that's in a year in which Matt Ryan was hurt.

Randy Moss' stats blew him away last year. Moss had more catches, more yards, and 44% more TDs.

Marques Colston's stats are very similar, but Colston isn't a criminal who's suspended for it either. Still, I don't see anyone calling Colston a top-4 WR.

Sidney Rice had 15 more catches and almost 200 yards more than VJ did, and Rice is younger.

Again, I hate to argue on behalf of any Minnesota Viking, but to say Vince Jackson is better than every WR other than Andre, LF, and Marshall is either suspicious, or just an April 1st post.

And I haven't even mentioned Greg Jennings, Steve Smith, or Anquan Boldin. Talent & Production-wise, I don't think a case can be made that Jackson is better than any of those 3 guys. Put Steve Smith on San Diego the past 3 seasons instead of Carolina with horse**** Jake Delhomme, and put VJ in Smith's shoes in Carolina.

You're still only looking into the stats, do you actually watch someone play or just go to espn's player bio and look at their seasons production to base your opinion. You don't even know the half of it.

J-Mike88
07-02-2010, 01:48 PM
You're still only looking into the stats, do you actually watch someone play or just go to espn's player bio and look at their seasons production to base your opinion. You don't even know the half of it.
I know more than half of it.
I watch every Charger game on the Sunday Ticket and have since before Rivers was their starting QB or before Jackson was their starting WR. I actually just went to a

Chargers home game against the Raiders and I was able to focus in on indivicual players away from the camera.

Jackson is not a top 4 WR, or even top 10. He's close to 10, but he has a lot of thanks to give to the offense he has been in with a great QB, and playing against defenses who worry first about Antonio Gates and had worried more about LT and the running game.

Besides all that, you have a punk off the field who already has 2 strikes against him. If he's gonna hold out, that's on him, and I admire AJ Smith and the Bolts for telling him to piss off.
* If he demands a new deal or a trade, then Send his ass to Cleveland and see how his stats and play look catching passes from Delhomme instead of Rivers.


Rivers is great.
Gates is great.
Jackson is good.


This is about as clear as I can say it.

P-L
07-02-2010, 10:03 PM
False. You must be VJ's agent or his mother.
There's not ONE GM in the NFL who would take Vincent Jackson over Calvin Johnson. He's not the 4th best WR in the NFL, not even close.

That's talent/production/character/net worth, everything.

His talent isn't top 5.
His production isn't top 5.
He character isn't top 50 (hello suspension).

Production:
Even last year when VJ supposedly broke-out, he had fewer yards receiving than Santonio Holmes did, and almost 200 less than Miles Austin, a guy who really didn't start until month 2 of the season.

Roddy White had more catches and 2 more TDs than VJ did, and that's in a year in which Matt Ryan was hurt.

Randy Moss' stats blew him away last year. Moss had more catches, more yards, and 44% more TDs.

Marques Colston's stats are very similar, but Colston isn't a criminal who's suspended for it either. Still, I don't see anyone calling Colston a top-4 WR.

Sidney Rice had 15 more catches and almost 200 yards more than VJ did, and Rice is younger.

Again, I hate to argue on behalf of any Minnesota Viking, but to say Vince Jackson is better than every WR other than Andre, LF, and Marshall is either suspicious, or just an April 1st post.

And I haven't even mentioned Greg Jennings, Steve Smith, or Anquan Boldin. Talent & Production-wise, I don't think a case can be made that Jackson is better than any of those 3 guys. Put Steve Smith on San Diego the past 3 seasons instead of Carolina with horse**** Jake Delhomme, and put VJ in Smith's shoes in Carolina.
Do you seriously not understand what everyone has been trying to tell you? Jackson's production suffers because Rivers spreads the football around and doesn't throw it to one receiver every play.

Roddy White was targeted 164 times (2nd in the NFL) last season compared to Vincent Jackson's 107 times. I did a short study and decided to calculate what each receiver would have produced had they all received 164 passes thrown their way. I left A. Johnson, Fitzgerald, and Marshall out of the study because they are the "consensus" top three.

Roddy White: 85 rec, 1153 yards, 13.6 yds/rec, 11 TD
Miles Austin: 107 rec, 1746 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 14.5 TD
Randy Moss: 98 rec, 1568 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 15 TD
Marques Colston: 108 rec, 1661 yards, 15.3 yds/rec, 14 TD
Sidney Rice: 112 rec, 1778 yards, 15.8 yds/rec, 11 TD
Greg Jennings: 95 rec, 1547 yards, 16.4 yds/rec, 5.5 TD
Steve Smith: 83 rec, 1258 yards, 15.1 yds/rec, 9 TD
Anquan Boldin: 108 rec, 1322 yards, 12.2 yds/rec, 5 TD

Vincent Jackson: 104 rec, 1788 yards, 17.2 yds/rec, 14 TD

Now, had all those receivers received the same number of balls thrown their way Jackson would've led that entire group in yards and yards per reception. He also would've tied for third in touchdowns behind only Miles Austin and Randy Moss. There is no way you can make an argument that Roddy White, Sidney Rice, Greg Jennings, or Anquan Boldin are as good as Vincent Jackson, much less better. Don't punish Jackson because Rivers distributes the ball the different receivers. Vincent Jackson easily has better production than half the guys you have listed considering he gets targeted far less.

Shiver
07-02-2010, 10:10 PM
Do you seriously not understand what everyone has been trying to tell you? Jackson's production suffers because Rivers spreads the football around and doesn't throw it to one receiver every play.

Roddy White was targeted 164 times (2nd in the NFL) last season compared to Vincent Jackson's 107 times. I did a short study and decided to calculate what each receiver would have produced had they all received 164 passes thrown their way. I left A. Johnson, Fitzgerald, and Marshall out of the study because they are the "consensus" top three.

Roddy White: 85 rec, 1153 yards, 13.6 yds/rec, 11 TD
Miles Austin: 107 rec, 1746 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 14.5 TD
Randy Moss: 98 rec, 1568 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 15 TD
Marques Colston: 108 rec, 1661 yards, 15.3 yds/rec, 14 TD
Sidney Rice: 112 rec, 1778 yards, 15.8 yds/rec, 11 TD
Greg Jennings: 95 rec, 1547 yards, 16.4 yds/rec, 5.5 TD
Steve Smith: 83 rec, 1258 yards, 15.1 yds/rec, 9 TD
Anquan Boldin: 108 rec, 1322 yards, 12.2 yds/rec, 5 TD

Vincent Jackson: 104 rec, 1788 yards, 17.2 yds/rec, 14 TD

Now, had all those receivers received the same number of balls thrown their way Jackson would've led that entire group in yards and yards per reception. He also would've tied for third in touchdowns behind only Miles Austin and Randy Moss. There is no way you can make an argument that Roddy White, Sidney Rice, Greg Jennings, or Anquan Boldin are as good as Vincent Jackson, much less better. Don't punish Jackson because Rivers distributes the ball the different receivers. Vincent Jackson easily has better production than half the guys you have listed considering he gets targeted far less.

Thank you, I didn't even have to type all that up because you beat me to it.

BeerBaron
07-02-2010, 10:18 PM
P-L with the most intelligent post I've seen in a while. And just to tack on a little bit more....Jackson is a huge dude. Size isn't everything, but when your talking about a WR, it's definitely something and worth mentioning as well when talking about his value.

descendency
07-02-2010, 10:24 PM
Do you seriously not understand what everyone has been trying to tell you? Jackson's production suffers because Rivers spreads the football around and doesn't throw it to one receiver every play.

Roddy White was targeted 164 times (2nd in the NFL) last season compared to Vincent Jackson's 107 times. I did a short study and decided to calculate what each receiver would have produced had they all received 164 passes thrown their way. I left A. Johnson, Fitzgerald, and Marshall out of the study because they are the "consensus" top three.

Roddy White: 85 rec, 1153 yards, 13.6 yds/rec, 11 TD
Miles Austin: 107 rec, 1746 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 14.5 TD
Randy Moss: 98 rec, 1568 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 15 TD
Marques Colston: 108 rec, 1661 yards, 15.3 yds/rec, 14 TD
Sidney Rice: 112 rec, 1778 yards, 15.8 yds/rec, 11 TD
Greg Jennings: 95 rec, 1547 yards, 16.4 yds/rec, 5.5 TD
Steve Smith: 83 rec, 1258 yards, 15.1 yds/rec, 9 TD
Anquan Boldin: 108 rec, 1322 yards, 12.2 yds/rec, 5 TD

Vincent Jackson: 104 rec, 1788 yards, 17.2 yds/rec, 14 TD

Now, had all those receivers received the same number of balls thrown their way Jackson would've led that entire group in yards and yards per reception. He also would've tied for third in touchdowns behind only Miles Austin and Randy Moss. There is no way you can make an argument that Roddy White, Sidney Rice, Greg Jennings, or Anquan Boldin are as good as Vincent Jackson, much less better. Don't punish Jackson because Rivers distributes the ball the different receivers. Vincent Jackson easily has better production than half the guys you have listed considering he gets targeted far less.

Your flaw is that had he been targeted an equivalent number of times, the defense would have moved more coverage to him. I don't even know why this isn't obvious. You can't extrapolate data in the NFL. It just doesn't work.

BeerBaron
07-02-2010, 10:28 PM
Your flaw is that had he been targeted an equivalent number of times, the defense would have moved more coverage to him. I don't even know why this isn't obvious. You can't extrapolate data in the NFL. It just doesn't work.

And the exact same thing would apply to every other player on the list too.......that negates it in my understanding of equations and such.

J-Mike88
07-02-2010, 10:37 PM
If Jackson would get open more often, he'd get a lot more targets. You don't think Rivers would like to chuck em up to the tall dude 10+ times a game?

Plus because of the great Antonio Gates, Jackson doesn't face the same coverages as guys like Steve Smith, Calvin Johnson, OchoCinco, etc.

I was the guy who drafted Vincent Jackson last year in my keeper league and I thought I liked the guy, but if you guys really think this guy's the 4th best, even 5th or 6th WR in the NFL, then I guess I don't like him that much after all.

descendency
07-02-2010, 10:41 PM
And the exact same thing would apply to every other player on the list too.......that negates it in my understanding of equations and such.

What makes a WR better than another WR? His ability to beat more coverages.

So increasing the amount of coverage you receive will cause a reduced production rate.

How much it reduces is dependent upon how good of a WR you are. If you agree that the better a WR you are, the better you can beat coverages then you must agree that more coverage would cause weaker WRs to slow their production. Then you agree that 150+% extrapolation is clearly flawed in that matter.

BeerBaron
07-02-2010, 10:44 PM
I'm not one for strict rankings...I'm more a of "tiers" kind of person, and, with his size and ability, I'd have him on my 2nd tier of receivers. The first tier consisting of AJ, Fitz and Marshall.

And if I were starting a team from scratch, I'd consider him at WR before I'd consider guys like Austin, Jennings, Carolina Steve Smith, Rice, and Boldin because of his size and comparative age.

Like has been said many times, if he and Brandon Marshall switched places last year, I think Jackson's production would have gone way up...maybe not matching Marshall's, but still higher than what he had in SD with so many other weapons around him.

Yeah, you could make the argument that should open things up for him more....but there are literally only so many balls to go around. And if you look at his average compared to say, Marshall....his is a lot better since he's freer to go downfield with the other weapons drawing attention.

J-Mike88
07-02-2010, 10:50 PM
Has everybody forgotten about Megatron.......Calvin Johnson?
Did he tear two ACL's that I missed?

descendency
07-02-2010, 10:54 PM
Has everybody forgotten about Megatron.......Calvin Johnson?
Did he tear two ACL's that I missed?

He plays for the Lions. That's worse than 2 ACL tears.

Brothgar
07-02-2010, 11:04 PM
Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get as many looks mean he isn't getting open? I mean I doubt that Rivers is intentionally throwing it to these other receivers while Vincent is wide open.

LonghornsLegend
07-02-2010, 11:12 PM
Do you seriously not understand what everyone has been trying to tell you? Jackson's production suffers because Rivers spreads the football around and doesn't throw it to one receiver every play.

Roddy White was targeted 164 times (2nd in the NFL) last season compared to Vincent Jackson's 107 times. I did a short study and decided to calculate what each receiver would have produced had they all received 164 passes thrown their way. I left A. Johnson, Fitzgerald, and Marshall out of the study because they are the "consensus" top three.

Roddy White: 85 rec, 1153 yards, 13.6 yds/rec, 11 TD
Miles Austin: 107 rec, 1746 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 14.5 TD
Randy Moss: 98 rec, 1568 yards, 16.3 yds/rec, 15 TD
Marques Colston: 108 rec, 1661 yards, 15.3 yds/rec, 14 TD
Sidney Rice: 112 rec, 1778 yards, 15.8 yds/rec, 11 TD
Greg Jennings: 95 rec, 1547 yards, 16.4 yds/rec, 5.5 TD
Steve Smith: 83 rec, 1258 yards, 15.1 yds/rec, 9 TD
Anquan Boldin: 108 rec, 1322 yards, 12.2 yds/rec, 5 TD

Vincent Jackson: 104 rec, 1788 yards, 17.2 yds/rec, 14 TD

Now, had all those receivers received the same number of balls thrown their way Jackson would've led that entire group in yards and yards per reception. He also would've tied for third in touchdowns behind only Miles Austin and Randy Moss. There is no way you can make an argument that Roddy White, Sidney Rice, Greg Jennings, or Anquan Boldin are as good as Vincent Jackson, much less better. Don't punish Jackson because Rivers distributes the ball the different receivers. Vincent Jackson easily has better production than half the guys you have listed considering he gets targeted far less.



Thank you P-L for this amazing post. Some people don't know how to go past nfl.com and look at receptions, yards, TD's and end the argument there.



Also, the moral of this post: throw the damn ball to Miles Austin more :)



Also, some QB's, and WR's just spread the ball around a ton. You could make an argument that some WR's are open every single play technically. You can't just say "well VJ just isn't getting open".


What if there is double coverage on him and a wide open Malcolm Floyd, or a single covered Antonio Gates, why force the ball? No matter how good a WR is common sense tells you look at the open guy.

BeerBaron
07-02-2010, 11:22 PM
What if there is double coverage on him and a wide open Malcolm Floyd, or a single covered Antonio Gates, why force the ball? No matter how good a WR is common sense tells you look at the open guy.

And that's exactly what's going to happen with a 6'5 receiver who is averaging 18 ypc. There's a very fine difference between "not getting open" and "drawing coverage." With all of the other talent on that SD offense...guys to spread the ball to like Gates, Floyd, LT, Sproles...Rivers is going to see less targets.

It's like I said earlier that I think he could have Marshall type production if the ball were forced his way a lot more....might not actually be good for the team though.

Xenos
07-03-2010, 01:35 AM
Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get as many looks mean he isn't getting open? I mean I doubt that Rivers is intentionally throwing it to these other receivers while Vincent is wide open.
Rivers is similar to Brees in that he'll spread the ball around as much as possible. It's something that he picked up from his former teammate.

Xenos
07-03-2010, 01:36 AM
I would like to add that all this talk about trade and pay is interestingly enough not coming from VJ or his agent. Unlike the other high profile disgruntled players like Revis and CJ.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-03-2010, 02:19 AM
Doesn't the fact that he doesn't get as many looks mean he isn't getting open? I mean I doubt that Rivers is intentionally throwing it to these other receivers while Vincent is wide open.

That's not really how professional football works though. There's primary targets in essentially ever pass play and a whole progression order. Norv Turner likes to spread the production around and that in turn allows his receivers to make it further down the field without drawing extra coverage. It's an offense doesn't have to rely on one guy being too awesome for the defense to shut him down and has proven itself to be highly effective.

I think that if Jackson played on some version of the Chargers offense which got the ball into his hands 110 times or so, his YPC would fall noticeably. That said, Jackson is the most dangerous receiver on that team and it's not close at all. He's a brilliant over the shoulder receiver and he beats single coverages really consistently (not young Randy Moss consistently, but Moss might have been the best ever at that).

Don't knock Jackson because his offense isn't solely about getting the ball into his hands. He's a really really good receiver who, in my mind, rates pretty damn evenly with Brandon Marshall (who I think gets a tiny bit overrated sometimes).

A Perfect Score
07-03-2010, 02:38 AM
I'm fully on board with VJ being awesome, but Im absolutely with the guys who say that you cant extrapolate data in the NFL. It simply does not work that way. There are a million tiny variables to consider when doing stuff like that, ranging from anywhere between the teams (and corners) that receiver faced to health of QB's to strength of their overall team to EVERYTHING. As much as alot of people wish it was that easy, there is no way in hell I can take stats like P-L posted legitimately. I don't think that really discredits the argument made for Vincent Jackson nor does it really strengthen anything opposing, but I do believe those numbers are completely arbitrary. I mean, I would imagine someone like Desean Jackson's stats would be through the roof if you extrapolated his stats like that...I mean he averaged almost 19 YPC and only had 63 receptions all year long, and Donovan spreads the ball around just as much as Rivers does.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-03-2010, 02:53 AM
They fall short of completely arbitrary. They are after all extrapolations of real data. How much credence you give them is your call, but it's not an altogether poor illustration of the discrepancy in chances wide receivers get in the NFL.

By the way, DeSean Jackson's numbers would be...

91 receptions, 1684 yards, 13 TD

LonghornsLegend
07-03-2010, 03:03 AM
I'm fully on board with VJ being awesome, but Im absolutely with the guys who say that you cant extrapolate data in the NFL. It simply does not work that way. There are a million tiny variables to consider when doing stuff like that, ranging from anywhere between the teams (and corners) that receiver faced to health of QB's to strength of their overall team to EVERYTHING. As much as alot of people wish it was that easy, there is no way in hell I can take stats like P-L posted legitimately. I don't think that really discredits the argument made for Vincent Jackson nor does it really strengthen anything opposing, but I do believe those numbers are completely arbitrary. I mean, I would imagine someone like Desean Jackson's stats would be through the roof if you extrapolated his stats like that...I mean he averaged almost 19 YPC and only had 63 receptions all year long, and Donovan spreads the ball around just as much as Rivers does.



Your right, and I don't think(at least I hope) nobody took the data that he compiled literally. I think the better point is that J-Mike was simply looking at stats on nfl.com and judging who was the better WR that way, and completely ignoring things that skewed those stats such as targets.


None of those WR's would probably realistically reach those numbers, but it's at least a good way to gauge how much more the rest of the guys were getting the ball thrown to them in their offense then VJ was. So if you want to purely look at stats you at least have to take that into consideration.

descendency
07-03-2010, 05:36 AM
They fall short of completely arbitrary. They are after all extrapolations of real data.

Before I explain, let me say that I have college degrees in Mathematics and Computer Science (with my core study done in data mining and statistical analysis). The term "extrapolation" means making WE HAVE GOD **** CENSORS STOP ******* TRYING TO GET AROUND THEM. FOR ***** SAKE. up from data, basically. When you "extrapolate" too much, you end up with garbage numbers.

P-L's post is well thought out but mechanically flawed. As a professional opinion, I would not rely on data that extrapolates over 150% of the area covered by the data. Minor extrapolation isn't harmful, but major extrapolation is just as bad as completely making numbers up. I mean something like this: take a WR whom had 1490 yards for the season averaging 15 ypc. A minor extrapolation would be to say if the WR caught one more pass, he would have broken 1500 yards.

Extrapolations break down when you start to take them out too far beyond your resource data because you are assuming the trends will continue. Over a small interval of change, this hold true which is why it's ok to make small data extrapolations. However, over a large interval of change, the assumption that your data set won't change makes a much larger impact.

I can give you tons of reasons why the model would change if you simply changed the number of times targeted.

P-L should have probably simply pointed out his YPC as high as it is as well as his TD/target and catches per target. That would be sufficient to show that he's a good WR. But I still contend that WRs are easier to find and not worth the big pay days. Then again, it's nice to have an elite WR around.

wordofi
07-03-2010, 09:12 AM
I would pay him because you can't teach his size and speed.

Brothgar
07-03-2010, 10:38 AM
That's not really how professional football works though. There's primary targets in essentially ever pass play and a whole progression order. Norv Turner likes to spread the production around and that in turn allows his receivers to make it further down the field without drawing extra coverage. It's an offense doesn't have to rely on one guy being too awesome for the defense to shut him down and has proven itself to be highly effective.

I think that if Jackson played on some version of the Chargers offense which got the ball into his hands 110 times or so, his YPC would fall noticeably. That said, Jackson is the most dangerous receiver on that team and it's not close at all. He's a brilliant over the shoulder receiver and he beats single coverages really consistently (not young Randy Moss consistently, but Moss might have been the best ever at that).

Don't knock Jackson because his offense isn't solely about getting the ball into his hands. He's a really really good receiver who, in my mind, rates pretty damn evenly with Brandon Marshall (who I think gets a tiny bit overrated sometimes).

Well in all reality it kinda is how pro ball works. Sure you do have a primary receiver BUT you don't lock on to your primary receiver and not look at your other targets that is how interceptions happen. All QBs work through their progressions before locking on to the primary WR unless it is a short pass or something.

A Perfect Score
07-03-2010, 10:43 AM
Your right, and I don't think(at least I hope) nobody took the data that he compiled literally. I think the better point is that J-Mike was simply looking at stats on nfl.com and judging who was the better WR that way, and completely ignoring things that skewed those stats such as targets.


None of those WR's would probably realistically reach those numbers, but it's at least a good way to gauge how much more the rest of the guys were getting the ball thrown to them in their offense then VJ was. So if you want to purely look at stats you at least have to take that into consideration.

Well of course if you want to speak purely statistically, or I suppose are arguing with someone who leans on statistics. But I would think that most of the people here would realize that while stats do play a large role in how the common fan looks at and evaluates players, there is a much larger situation unfolding. While I dont believe that the stats can be expanded like that, I do think that there are arguments you can make about VJ's influence that are completely unreliant on statistics. Of course, most of them have been made in this thread already so maybe someone is just an idiot and focusing too much on stats to prove a point...

I just dont think we can go ahead and do things like that. If we could, Jamaal Charles would be the best running back ever. And then vidae would be right. And that would just be awful.

J-Mike88
07-04-2010, 07:36 AM
... But I still contend that WRs are easier to find and not worth the big pay days.

Then again, it's nice to have an elite WR around.
I agree. Well-said.
The greatest WR's of the past decade+ that we have seen consistently were Randy Moss and Terrell Owens. They were dominant thru the 00's, even on more than one team. And neither ever won a ring. Same with Steve Smith who many NFL personnel said as recently as 2008 that he was pound-for-pound the best WR in the game.

It is nice to have great WRs though, sure.

But as with the Packers in 1995 after losing the great Sterling Sharpe, and the Cowboys after the 2008 season after losing their elite Terrell Owens, sometimes and offense actually improves.

Even the Patriots are an example of this. They won their 3 Super Bowls with WRs like Troy Smith and Deion Branch. They've not won any with Randy Moss and his record-setting numbers.

I don't believe anyone can make a case that Vincent Jackson is anywhere near the level (talent or production) that guys like them were, or like Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, or Calvin Johnson are.
Forget statistics then if you say they mean nothing.
Instead, ask scouts to rank their best 5 WRs. Ask NFL GM's.

Vincent Jackson is NOT a Tier-One NFL WR. And don't forget, his off-field misconduct has an impact on his value. You can't ignore that. Roger Goodell doesn't ignore that.

Bucs_Rule
07-05-2010, 05:00 AM
What is the Charger's cap situation like? McNeill also needs a new contract, I believe he is more important than Jackson is. If they get McNeill deal done first, do they have the money left over for Jackson as well?

Brothgar
07-05-2010, 06:12 AM
What is the Charger's cap situation like? McNeill also needs a new contract, I believe he is more important than Jackson is. If they get McNeill deal done first, do they have the money left over for Jackson as well?

There is no cap. So in that sense there is a ton of cap space. ;)

descendency
07-05-2010, 06:48 AM
There is no cap. So in that sense there is a ton of cap space. ;)

Every indication of the CBA talks as of recent seem to point to a cap coming back so every team is being careful not to sign a big contract that will handcuff them down the road. At the same time, no team is going to the money on the front-end of a contract just to get a player to sign. That's like guaranteeing a much larger portion of a contract than you normally would and it will turn players in lazy players.

wogitalia
07-05-2010, 10:49 AM
VJ is good but I can't help but feel like WR is the most overrated position in football, it's the glory position but really it doesn't seem win championships.

I mean in the last decade the best WRs to win superbowls would be Ward, Colston, Harrison, Wayne and Burress. Wayne and Harrison have the obvious disclaimer of Peyton and despite Peyton and two elite WRs they managed just one ring. Ward is the definition of a very good receiver, I don't know if he has ever been elite, he has been dependable in that 10-20 range as a WR. Colston is part of a system that really doesn't seem to matter who you plug in, he is just the man at the moment. Burress is actually the guy most similar to VJ though, big tall target that can get open fairly often. A guy who can be a game changer but it's been shown you can win without them, hell, the majority of the losers over the last decade have had the best WR on the field.

I love the way that the Chargers are handling their petulant players, LT wanted to hold them to ransom so they let him walk, McNeil and VJ now get to sit out seasons. If more teams would take this approach we'd have a better product as players who don't care about playing get weeded out and players actually show up at training camps to get better and learn the systems.

bantx
07-07-2010, 03:31 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5355696

"Sources: Jackson not on the trade block"

Looks like if he doesn't sign he'll just sit for the year.

GB12
07-07-2010, 03:34 PM
He'll sit out 10 games. He still needs those six or he won't get credit for service time and he'll be a restricted free agent again.

CC.SD
07-08-2010, 08:58 PM
PAY the answer is PAY. McNeill is serviceable but has been on a downhill slope since his rookie year. On any given Sunday, VJ can be the best player on the field on a team that includes Rivers and Gates.

bantx
07-08-2010, 10:21 PM
PAY the answer is PAY. McNeill is serviceable but has been on a downhill slope since his rookie year. On any given Sunday, VJ can be the best player on the field on a team that includes Rivers and Gates.

Where have you been?! Everyone thought you were dead

bantx
07-10-2010, 05:38 PM
If VJ does sit this 10 games, throw TO into the mix? Don't think he's done and Rivers won't put up with his **** and keep him in check c:

Of course not for what he's asking, he's gonna have to suck it up cause he won't get that kind of money anywhere.

Bucs_Rule
07-10-2010, 11:06 PM
PAY the answer is PAY. McNeill is serviceable but has been on a downhill slope since his rookie year. On any given Sunday, VJ can be the best player on the field on a team that includes Rivers and Gates.

He has? I heavn't been paying as much attention to the Chargers than I used to.

It used to look like they had a bunch of superstars developing with Merriman, Crommartie and McNeill. Before the question was, they couldn't pay them all, so which ones would they let go. Now its turning into, they aren't going to keep any of them, so how much can they get for them before they bolt.

At least Jackson has turned into a star.

dannyz
07-23-2010, 01:20 AM
I think a 2ND and a good Starting Player would be Good. The Texans should Trade a 2ND and Arian Foster for him. Could you Imagine Jackson and Johnson?

Splat
08-20-2010, 05:35 PM
Seattle has been given permission to talk contract terms with Jackson (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-jacksonseahawks082010).

dannyz
08-21-2010, 01:48 PM
What would be a good trade offer from Seattle?

XxXdragonXxX
08-21-2010, 02:03 PM
As long as we can get rid of Branch in the deal, I'm down.

Branch and a couple mid round picks seems fair since the Chargers are intent on lowering his trade value by the day.

JHasley10
08-21-2010, 02:06 PM
As long as we can get rid of Branch in the deal, I'm down.

Branch and a couple mid round picks seems fair since the Chargers are intent on lowering his trade value by the day.

id take TJ over branch any day. the chargers wont get lowballed in this trade either.

AJ is the bully

Splat
08-21-2010, 02:07 PM
id take TJ over branch any day. the chargers wont get lowballed in this trade either.

AJ is the bully

That's the problem.

XxXdragonXxX
08-21-2010, 02:11 PM
id take TJ over branch any day. the chargers wont get lowballed in this trade either.

AJ is the bully


Yea and the Seahawks would take TJ over Branch any day too.

AJ is about to make Jackson's suspension go from 3 to 6 games, his bullying is doing nothing but hurting their chances of getting a fair deal.

JHasley10
08-21-2010, 02:17 PM
Chargers will get a 3rd round COMP pick if he leaves as a free agent next year " assuming they change the rule on free agency"

so thats the least the chargers would get for jackson. the seahawks might give up a 2011 2nd round pick for him and another pick " late rounder" or a player.

other then that i hope Vincent saved up money cause he might be at home watching the games " HOPEFULLY NOT THE BARS "

Paul
08-21-2010, 02:29 PM
I was on the fence on this one, but the fact that Rivers is in his prime, you have to take advantage and give him the best chance to win now. And him and VJ have obviously developed a great chemistry the past few years. So from a purely football standpoint I'd say pay him.

TitanHope
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM
Pay the man.

But!

It's a good year to pass with these WR's coming up. Jonathan Baldwin would be perfect in that scheme, or really any of the top four WR's (AJ Green, Michael Floyd, Jonathan Baldwin, Julio Jones).

They traded up for Ryan Matthews. Trade up for a stud WR to replace V-Jax.

XxXdragonXxX
08-21-2010, 02:39 PM
If it were me I wouldn't give up more value than the 3rd rounder the Chargers would get by losing him as a FA. Carroll and Schneider need to play hardball on this one. If you can't get him for a 3rd or equal value, wait till next year, WR is that big of a need right now anyway.


And remember, the Seahawks passed on getting a better player with less baggage for about the same price already. And the WR situation has gotten better since then.

CC.SD
08-21-2010, 02:51 PM
If it were me I wouldn't give up more value than the 3rd rounder the Chargers would get by losing him as a FA. Carroll and Schneider need to play hardball on this one. If you can't get him for a 3rd or equal value, wait till next year, WR is that big of a need right now anyway.


And remember, the Seahawks passed on getting a better player with less baggage for about the same price already. And the WR situation has gotten better since then.

Too bad you already gave up that 3rd rounder...to the Chargers.

XxXdragonXxX
08-21-2010, 02:53 PM
Too bad you already gave up that 3rd rounder...to the Chargers.

Truth.....

This is why I think that either the Seahawks get him for a deal similar to what I proposed earlier, or they don't get him at all. They're not going to give up B-Marsh compensation for him, and can't sign him as a FA.

CC.SD
08-21-2010, 03:07 PM
I don't think anybody is going to pay Jackson a brandon marshall type contract. I can't recall the last time a player legitimately sat out the season but I feel like this could be the time.

descendency
08-21-2010, 03:09 PM
id take TJ over branch any day. the chargers wont get lowballed in this trade either.

AJ is the bully

You can't mean Super Bowl MVP Deion Branch can you????

XxXdragonXxX
08-21-2010, 03:12 PM
Tim Ruskell must die.