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Vikes99ej
06-30-2010, 05:36 PM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200810/20081019wap_pittnavyf_330.jpg


I couldn't find a new thread on him, so let's use this one to talk about how good he is!

BamaFalcon59
06-30-2010, 05:38 PM
Reminds me of Vincent Jackson, physically and what he does on the football field.

Vikes99ej
06-30-2010, 05:42 PM
I was thinking Plaxico Burress, before all of his shenanigans.

wicket
06-30-2010, 05:45 PM
physically the most gifted wr to come out since calvin iyam

Paranoidmoonduck
06-30-2010, 05:47 PM
Jackson was bigger and stronger coming out and had a bit of a different game. He was (and continues to be) a deep ball receiver because he's strong enough to out muscle defensive backs, fast enough to beat the majority of guys deep, and tracks the ball well over his shoulder.

Baldwin, at least so far, has a bit of a different game. Pittsburgh seems to like sending him on deep comebacks because cornerbacks feel the need to give him lots of room and Baldwin can charge back on the ball to an insane degree due to his leaping ability. Your average college corner has no chance against Baldwin in that circumstance.

Baldwin brings more of a body control and size game rather than a strength and quickness approach, but he's crazy talented either way. Easily good enough to be the first receiver off the board even considering the stiff competition he's likely to face at his position.

K Train
06-30-2010, 05:50 PM
i mean i know its common because of going to pitt but hes not THAT far off from fitz as a prospect....chances are they run about the same 40 in the 4.5-4.6 range, they are crazy good at getting the jump ball, both big, both pretty physical guys

wonderbredd24
06-30-2010, 05:50 PM
I was thinking Plaxico Burress, before all of his shenanigans.

Baldwin has far more ability to go vertical than Burress does/did

wonderbredd24
06-30-2010, 05:52 PM
i mean i know its common because of going to pitt but hes not THAT far off from fitz as a prospect....chances are they run about the same 40 in the 4.5-4.6 range, they are crazy good at getting the jump ball, both big, both pretty physical guys

Baldwin is faster, but Fitzgerald is far better in traffic and more physical

K Train
06-30-2010, 05:56 PM
Baldwin is faster, but Fitzgerald is far better in traffic and more physical

im not saying exact clones, but i dont think calvin is a legit comparison.

and i dont think baldwin is gonna run that fast. i mean not a slow run, but i dont expect the scouts to be blown away like they were with calvin johnson.

from antonio bryant, to fitz, to baldwin...pitt has been cranking out good WRs in the last 8 or so years

RealityCheck
06-30-2010, 05:58 PM
Will be a Top 10 pick after it's all said and done.

JFLO
06-30-2010, 05:59 PM
I think I'm bigger on Baldwin than most people and I think he has a legitimate shot of being a Top 10-15 pick in April. I think he'll run in the 4.48-4.55 range and his speed is very deceptive.

He needs to branch his route running abilities a bit more because Pitt doesn't ask him to run a vast variety of them, but he definitely has the potential to be a very good #1 guy at the next level. His physical abilities are uncanny and will have scouts drooling and reminding some folks of Megatron.

wonderbredd24
06-30-2010, 05:59 PM
im not saying exact clones, but i dont think calvin is a legit comparison.

and i dont think baldwin is gonna run that fast. i mean not a slow run, but i dont expect the scouts to be blown away like they were with calvin johnson.

from antonio bryant, to fitz, to baldwin...pitt has been cranking out good WRs in the last 8 or so years
Antonio Bryant has been a good wide receiver? He was a belitnikoff award winner and a pretty big dissapointment with a couple decent seasons thrown in

K Train
06-30-2010, 06:00 PM
i also think hes the most likely to return to school and be the consensus #1 WR in 2012 out of the big 4 this year

K Train
06-30-2010, 06:01 PM
Antonio Bryant has been a good wide receiver? He was a belitnikoff award winner and a pretty big dissapointment with a couple decent seasons thrown in
good college WR and decent prospect....he was a BEAST at pitt, i didnt say he took the world by storm in the pros

fitz went 3rd overall, bryant went in the second...i think baldwin is comfortably in between them in the 20 range.

Hines
06-30-2010, 06:09 PM
Oh my goodness, I LOVE Jon Baldwin. I want him on the Steelers so bad. I hope if he does come out, the Steelers don't pull the same mistake they made with Revis. Has great hands, strong, good body control, and fast. I hope he runs a slow 40 so the Steelers have a shot. He needs to work on his route tree, though.

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<333333

K Train
06-30-2010, 06:10 PM
<333333

now THATS passion

wonderbredd24
06-30-2010, 06:11 PM
Oh my goodness, I LOVE Jon Baldwin. I want him on the Steelers so bad. I hope if he does come out, the Steelers don't pull the same mistake they made with Revis. Has great hands, strong, good body control, and fast. I hope he runs a slow 40 so the Steelers have a shot. He needs to work on his route tree, though.

Please do... keep drafting non linemen. It makes me happy.

TitanHope
06-30-2010, 06:22 PM
I see more Burress in AJ Green than I do Baldwin.

JB's a tricky nut to crack, because I've read some reports that he's a high 4.3 - low 4.4 guy at 6'5, 225, which would make him in Calvin Johnson's league. But, I just don't think he's that fast from watching him. I'm thinking high 4.4 at best. The best comparison I have with a current NFL WR would be Malcom Floyd, with Baldwin obviously having a higher ceiling to be better.

Yeah, I'm definitely going Floyd with my comparison. If the Chargers deal VJax, then I think nabbing Baldwin as his replacement would be ideal - he's perfect for their system.

Hines
06-30-2010, 06:22 PM
Please do... keep drafting non linemen. It makes me happy.

If he is the best player on the Steelers' board, they'll draft him. That's how they roll. If there's a top OLman on the board, they'll draft them.

wonderbredd24
06-30-2010, 06:25 PM
If he is the best player on the Steelers' board, they'll draft him. That's how they roll. If there's a top OLman on the board, they'll draft them.
Which is why they are falling apart... I hope Baldwin is there so they can take him while their DLine gets even older and their OLine continues to be flanked by turnstyles

Hines
06-30-2010, 06:28 PM
Which is why they are falling apart... I hope Baldwin is there so they can take him while their DLine gets even older and their OLine continues to be flanked by turnstyles

DL is getting younger. They've gotten young bodies at those positions. All they need is a NT, which they can get in the 2nd-3rd rounds. Yeah, I want OL to be shaped up bad.

underscore
06-30-2010, 06:46 PM
Baldwin certainly is the physical specimen you'd want for an NFL WR...but will his WR skills be good enough?

LonghornsLegend
06-30-2010, 06:55 PM
Oh boy do I have a man crush on Baldwin, I was lucky enough to watch that Under Armour HS All-American game when he looked like a man amongst boys and I knew he was a player ever since there.


For a guy his size he has some amazing body control when the ball is in the air too, he's not stiff at all, he attacks the ball at it's high point which is pretty scary for a guy his size. I think he'll be dominant no matter what his 40 time is, but I don't buy 4.3, high 4.4 maybe, but he seems more of a low 4.5 guy on film which is fast as hell at his size and frame.



He has some excellent ball skills to, and I don't think he'll have any problem beating any DB's deep at the next level.

FUNBUNCHER
06-30-2010, 08:11 PM
I don't like getting hung up on 40 times for a WR, since it's the least predictive measurement for success, but I can say I will NOT be surprised if he runs a sub 4.45 at the combine. I didn't know Megatron had those kind of wheels until he blew up at Indy, so I'll reserve judgment on his speed.

I like the fact that Baldwin appears to have very strong hands and doesn't catch the ball into his body.

My favorite WR prospect going into the 2011 draft.

Brent
06-30-2010, 11:12 PM
watching that baldwin highlight reel, I was impressed by whoever that #11 QB is.

Duffman57
06-30-2010, 11:24 PM
I see more Burress in AJ Green than I do Baldwin.

JB's a tricky nut to crack, because I've read some reports that he's a high 4.3 - low 4.4 guy at 6'5, 225, which would make him in Calvin Johnson's league. But, I just don't think he's that fast from watching him. I'm thinking high 4.4 at best. The best comparison I have with a current NFL WR would be Malcom Floyd, with Baldwin obviously having a higher ceiling to be better.

Yeah, I'm definitely going Floyd with my comparison. If the Chargers deal VJax, then I think nabbing Baldwin as his replacement would be ideal - he's perfect for their system.

Doubt he comes to SD. One, hell be long gone by then and two, like you said, he's a lot like Floyd, who is obviously already here. The guy that I really think is an awesome fit for us is Deandre brown who is a lot like V Jax and comes at a much lower price.

TACKLE
06-30-2010, 11:31 PM
If I had to make a comparison for each of the big four WR's it would be something like this:

AJ Green - more polished Sidney Rice
Michael Floyd - Larry Fitzgerald
Jonathan Baldwin - Malcolm Floyd
Julio Jones - Reggie Williams

Brent
06-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Michael Floyd - Larry Fitzgerald
Jonathan Baldwin - Malcolm Floyd
Wait what??

TACKLE
07-01-2010, 12:13 AM
Wait what??

MICHAEL FLOYD

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5_sRMudZkj8/Syj2IK5eefI/AAAAAAAABLE/cxLPjPRVNVc/s640/nd3.jpg


MALCOM FLOYD

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Washington+Redskins+v+San+Diego+Chargers+MiI3c7OJE aal.jpg

LonghornsLegend
07-01-2010, 12:25 AM
If I had to make a comparison for each of the big four WR's it would be something like this:

AJ Green - more polished Sidney Rice
Michael Floyd - Larry Fitzgerald
Jonathan Baldwin - Malcolm Floyd
Julio Jones - Reggie Williams



I always like to do comparisons on a best case scenario, where obviously they may not reach that level but still. Comparing Julio to Reggie Williams seems a bit unfair since he has potential and untapped ability Reggie never had. Same goes for Baldwin to Floyd.


While I certainly don't think their bad comparisons, both of those guys can be far better then the counterpart, and at this point in their careers already were far better. I would say that's the low end of the comparisons for more of a worst case scenario.


Floyd is basically a one trick pony, Baldwin is so much more.


I do like the Green to Sidney Rice, more so to Rice now as a pro then him as a prospect though IMO. I still think Green is alot closer to Randy Moss best case and Julio/TO best case.

Vikes99ej
07-01-2010, 12:33 AM
Did I miss something, or did someone actually compare Baldwin to Malcom Floyd?

TACKLE
07-01-2010, 01:07 AM
I always like to do comparisons on a best case scenario, where obviously they may not reach that level but still. Comparing Julio to Reggie Williams seems a bit unfair since he has potential and untapped ability Reggie never had. Same goes for Baldwin to Floyd.


While I certainly don't think their bad comparisons, both of those guys can be far better then the counterpart, and at this point in their careers already were far better. I would say that's the low end of the comparisons for more of a worst case scenario.

I was just making comparisons to they remind me of most at this point. I understand what you're saying about the best case scenario comps but that doesn't always work. If there is a high upside player with top notch physical tools, but hasn't put it together on the field, you can't compare him to an NFL star. Caliber of player has to be a factor in making comparisons.

The comparisons I made were not a direct reflection of how I feel they'll work out in the NFL but it was a factor. To put Larry Fitzgerald-like expectations on any WR is unfair. But Floyd has a very similar physical make-up, speed, strength and elite jump ball skills. Baldwin was the trickiest one. He has a lot in common as far as physical tools and style of play with Malcom Floyd. But Baldwin absolutely has a higher upside. It was tricky because all the WR's who were the similar size to Baldwin all had fairly different games. CJ is close but I will have a very hard time ever comparing a WR because no one will really ever be able to match his freakishness. It sounds a little odd but he is probably a more like a mix of Floyd and Calvin. But if I had to pick one, Floyd's was the one who's game most resembled Baldwin's at this point. As for Reggie Williams, I am going to stay firm on that one. Reggie was a Top 10 pick and was thought to be a big, physical talented WR. But he also struggled to get separation. Julio is the same size and has a very similar game. Both are strong and physical with strong hands and are also great blockers. But both struggle to consistently get open. Julio struggles to get separation at the college level when he's challenged by top CB's. Its very hard for me to compare him to someone who does get separation no matter how much upside he may have. If I had to give Julio a best case scenario, it would by Keyshawn in his days with the Bucs.

Floyd is basically a one trick pony, Baldwin is so much more.

How so? Although Floyd's game is definitely dependent on the jump ball, he is given a wider range of routes to run. He's obviously shown his ability to get over the top of the defense, but has also shown the ability to run some intermediate routes. He has also shown his ability to get YAC and has taken screen passes to the house. Baldwin only really runs two routes: the streak/deep post and the deep dig route. I like Baldwin and his talent is undeniable but he's still very raw and needs a lot of polish. At this point, Floyd has proven to have a more well rounded game.

LonghornsLegend
07-01-2010, 01:45 AM
How so? Although Floyd's game is definitely dependent on the jump ball, he is given a wider range of routes to run. He's obviously shown his ability to get over the top of the defense, but has also shown the ability to run some intermediate routes. He has also shown his ability to get YAC and has taken screen passes to the house. Baldwin only really runs two routes: the streak/deep post and the deep dig route. I like Baldwin and his talent is undeniable but he's still very raw and needs a lot of polish. At this point, Floyd has proven to have a more well rounded game.



Because Floyd has been in the league, what, 5 years now or more and has still yet to show he can be a #1 WR in this league. Maybe he can, maybe he'll have no choice to be now, but he looks like a solid #2 guy. I think if you added up his first 5 seasons it wouldn't even come to 1000 yards total.


Baldwin is just much more talented then that. I think he could come in day 1 on a team and help out, and he has all the ability in the world to show he can be a #1 WR.


I really don't think Baldwin is all that raw, he runs great routes, runs a full route tree, and really Floyd is just a solid complimentary WR that took 5-6 years to even show he was good enough to be that.


I just think that's selling Baldwin extremely short, Floyd is going into season 7 and has yet to reach more then 800 receiving yards or more then 4 TD's, it's hard for me to compare a guy like that to who could end being looked upon as one of the elite WR prospects of this generation.

TACKLE
07-01-2010, 02:07 AM
From the post above your own.

Baldwin was the trickiest one. He has a lot in common as far as physical tools and style of play with Malcom Floyd. But Baldwin absolutely has a higher upside. It was tricky because all the WR's who were the similar size to Baldwin all had fairly different games. CJ is close but I will have a very hard time ever comparing a WR because no one will really ever be able to match his freakishness. It sounds a little odd but he is probably a more like a mix of Floyd and Calvin. But if I had to pick one, Floyd's was the one who's game most resembled Baldwin's at this point.

I understand that Floyd hasn't really done much throughout his career but I was more referring to what he did this year. He really really emerged as a vertical threat with 45 catches and an impressive 17.2 ypc.

If you look at other WR's with a similar frame...

Marques Colston - bigger and more physical but also is not as fast as Baldwin and is more of a possession WR.

Brandon Marshall - totally different playing style.

Floyd was the closest as far as a physical tools and style of play.




edit - Just thought of a comparison I like a lot more....

Jonathan Baldwin = bigger Chris Henry

phlysac
07-01-2010, 06:45 PM
from antonio bryant, to fitz, to baldwin...pitt has been cranking out good WRs in the last 8 or so years

Watch out for Devin Street next. People have already said he might have just as much upside as Baldwin. Scary.

bce
07-01-2010, 08:09 PM
physically the most gifted wr to come out since calvin iyam

I think its a valid comparison. One advantage for baldwin though over "megatron". Hes not an injury prone soft serve type.


he has aliquippa in his veins and everyone who knows knows aliquippa dont miss

LonghornsLegend
07-01-2010, 08:16 PM
Aliquippa has produced some elite NFL talent in Mike Ditka, Darrelle Revis, Ty Law, and I'm sure I'm probably missing some off the top of my head. I lived 10 minutes from there in Beaver Falls until I was 13 years old, it's one of the roughest neighborhoods in the surrounding Pittsburgh area.


Though I don't think Calvin was ever injured in College, or perceived soft. Though if he's consistently nicked up this year I think it's a valid label to tag him with.

Hines
07-01-2010, 08:17 PM
Aliquippa has produced some elite NFL talent in Mike Ditka, Darrelle Revis, Ty Law, and I'm sure I'm probably missing some off the top of my head. I lived 10 minutes from there in Beaver Falls until I was 13 years old, it's one of the roughest neighborhoods in the surrounding Pittsburgh area.


Though I don't think Calvin was ever injured in College, or perceived soft. Though if he's consistently nicked up this year I think it's a valid label to tag him with.

Sean Gilbert was another one. Aliquippa has produced some future prospects to look out for, but they aren't going to be big time.

Yeah, Aliquippa is rough. Where exactly did you live when you were in West PA?

LonghornsLegend
07-01-2010, 08:20 PM
Sean Gilbert was another one. Aliquippa has produced some future prospects to look out for, but they aren't going to be big time.

Yeah, Aliquippa is rough. Where exactly did you live when you were in West PA?

Beaver Falls PA which was roughly about an hr outside of Pittsburgh. Our biggest rivalry was Alliquippa and they were always churning out some top talent, not all of them amount to anything due to stupid decisions but the ones that make it to the D-1 level usually end up really good.


BF was small though, you may have never heard of it. My entire family is from Pitt and die hard Steeler fans.

Hines
07-01-2010, 08:22 PM
Beaver Falls PA which was roughly about an hr outside of Pittsburgh. Our biggest rivalry was Alliquippa and they were always churning out some top talent, not all of them amount to anything due to stupid decisions but the ones that make it to the D-1 level usually end up really good.


BF was small though, you may have never heard of it. My entire family is from Pitt and die hard Steeler fans.

I know where BF is. I lived about 10 minutes from BF. You ever hear of Ellwood City? That's where I was originally was from.

bce
07-01-2010, 08:48 PM
Aliquippa has produced some elite NFL talent in Mike Ditka, Darrelle Revis, Ty Law, and I'm sure I'm probably missing some off the top of my head. I lived 10 minutes from there in Beaver Falls until I was 13 years old, it's one of the roughest neighborhoods in the surrounding Pittsburgh area.


Though I don't think Calvin was ever injured in College, or perceived soft. Though if he's consistently nicked up this year I think it's a valid label to tag him with.


Not to get back to the "fun" that is comparing current nfl players. But calvin johnson is always hurt and is soft in the nfl.

Being from the area im sure you know theres just something about aliquippa. Per capita the best football players in the world come from there. The water, the nuclear plant nearby, who knows.

They just know how to breed them there. Thing is that all the players who make it to the nfl from there are great players. I couldnt explain it if I tried theres plenty of beaver valley and mon valley hell holes. But theres something special about football players from there.

TitanHope
07-01-2010, 10:32 PM
I always like to do comparisons on a best case scenario, where obviously they may not reach that level but still. Comparing Julio to Reggie Williams seems a bit unfair since he has potential and untapped ability Reggie never had. Same goes for Baldwin to Floyd.


While I certainly don't think their bad comparisons, both of those guys can be far better then the counterpart, and at this point in their careers already were far better. I would say that's the low end of the comparisons for more of a worst case scenario.

I feel comparisons aren't a measure of how good a player will be, but what kind of style or attributes they have. Neither Tackle nor I have meant Baldwin will be a #2 WR in the NFL by comparing him to Floyd. While it's not a sexy comparison because of the gap in talent, saying he's a rich man's Malcom Floyd provides more insight than using players who are more talented but not as similar (albeit, Tackle didn't say rich/poor version).

Like, last year my comparison for Eric Berry was a rich man's Tanard Jackson with better return ability while everyone else's was Ed Reed. While Berry matches Reed's talent and both have amazing return ability, I think Berry's play resembled Jackson's quite a bit more when the ball isn't in their hands. One player is better, but the inferior one alludes more to the prospect's play.

So yeah, (I'm gonna stop speaking for Tackle now just incase I'm putting words in his mouth, lol) I don't think comparisons should be ceilings or best case projections - I think they should be moulds. Baldwin could very well break the mould on this one. Same with the Reggie Williams/Julio Jones comparisons (although I'm not sure if I like that one too much, but just using it as an example). Julio could very well end up being a successful Reggie Williams, but then again, the successful version of Reggie Williams could be TO (not saying that's what I believe but just as an example), so it all depends on the view of the maker of the comparisons. *shrug*

FUNBUNCHER
07-01-2010, 10:45 PM
Sean Gilbert was a bust. Maybe he was a player for the Rams, but he stole money when he played in D.C.

bce
07-02-2010, 07:13 PM
He was a dominant force in his early years in the league, but i think he was with the panthers not the rams . When the worst nfl player that comes from your town is sean gilbert, youre doing pretty well.

Its per capita the greatest football breeding gorund on earth.

Aliquippa dont miss. Jonathan baldwin aint gonna miss. Hes going to hit huge. Its just the way things are.

LonghornsLegend
07-02-2010, 08:06 PM
I feel comparisons aren't a measure of how good a player will be, but what kind of style or attributes they have. Neither Tackle nor I have meant Baldwin will be a #2 WR in the NFL by comparing him to Floyd. While it's not a sexy comparison because of the gap in talent, saying he's a rich man's Malcom Floyd provides more insight than using players who are more talented but not as similar (albeit, Tackle didn't say rich/poor version).

Like, last year my comparison for Eric Berry was a rich man's Tanard Jackson with better return ability while everyone else's was Ed Reed. While Berry matches Reed's talent and both have amazing return ability, I think Berry's play resembled Jackson's quite a bit more when the ball isn't in their hands. One player is better, but the inferior one alludes more to the prospect's play.

So yeah, (I'm gonna stop speaking for Tackle now just incase I'm putting words in his mouth, lol) I don't think comparisons should be ceilings or best case projections - I think they should be moulds. Baldwin could very well break the mould on this one. Same with the Reggie Williams/Julio Jones comparisons (although I'm not sure if I like that one too much, but just using it as an example). Julio could very well end up being a successful Reggie Williams, but then again, the successful version of Reggie Williams could be TO (not saying that's what I believe but just as an example), so it all depends on the view of the maker of the comparisons. *shrug*



I can see comparisons done that way, personally I don't usually do them that way. I look at a guy, and I see who he compares to if that player reaches his max potential. I was saying Crabtree reminded me alot of Cris Carter last year, I didn't want that to be mis-construed that he would be a HOFer, but playing styles were eerily similiar and if he panned out like most thought that's what I saw.


While I don't think Floyd is a terrible comparison, I honestly don't see anything to be comparing those two, even to use the "rich man's" version which I like to do in unique cases.


I mean, I just see things in Baldwins game right now that Floyd still can't do, and some that took Floyd 7 years to learn. I think Baldwin as a rookie will be a more impact player then Floyd was last year. I've seen Floyd start to master the deep ball from Rivers, he attacks it at it's highest point like Baldwin, in that sense their alike.


I would say if were using that height as a starting point he's alot closer to what Burress looked like out of MSU. He was a much more complete WR, and I think that's a bit more indictive of the special talent were talking about here.


I think Tanard Jackson to Eric Berry point could be made, but to be fair Tanard Jackson as a safety is much better then Floyd is at WR. Jackson has been a rock solid starter since a rookie, had 5 picks last year, and that was only his 3rd season in the league so by all accounts he could be getting much better.


Floyd on the other hand took 7 years to get to this point and I think what we've seen is as good as it'll get. Not to base everything on stats either, but I just choose to look at players from a 'best case scenario' for what their talent and skillset brings to the table, and Malcolm Floyd is more of a worst case scenario for Baldwin to me and probably a failure if he ended up being what Floyd is right now. I just don't prefer comparing guys to someone knowing that's the case.


I know you said you see more Burress in AJ Green but when I watch the way Moss ran deep routes and attacked the ball in the air him and Green just look way too much alike. Maybe Baldwin is one of his own kind, that's why it's a bit tougher to peg him 2 one guy in particuliar.

FUNBUNCHER
07-02-2010, 09:44 PM
He was a dominant force in his early years in the league, but i think he was with the panthers not the rams . When the worst nfl player that comes from your town is sean gilbert, youre doing pretty well.

Its per capita the greatest football breeding gorund on earth.

Aliquippa dont miss. Jonathan baldwin aint gonna miss. Hes going to hit huge. Its just the way things are.

If you're gonna rep 'em, know your squad, bce!!

Gilbert was drafted 3rd overall by the Rams. He played much of his career with the Panthers, ( '98 - '02), but he never lived up to his draft status.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-03-2010, 01:52 AM
So many posts about who Baldwin compares to and not about Baldwin himself.

Hines
07-03-2010, 02:38 AM
Baldwin does have some character concerns. He seems he can't keep his hands to himself regarding the women.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4157114

LonghornsLegend
07-03-2010, 03:05 AM
So many posts about who Baldwin compares to and not about Baldwin himself.

Isn't that still discussing a prospect if your trying to find legitimate comparisons? Lol. Every person who has discussed comparisons has gone into depth about Baldwin himself in their post.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-03-2010, 03:10 AM
Isn't that still discussing a prospect if your trying to find legitimate comparisons? Lol. Every person who has discussed comparisons has gone into depth about Baldwin himself in their post.

I see people arguing about disparities in talent level between the player at issue and the comparison being evoked, but not about how Baldwin's skill set will sit in the NFL or how he compares to the other top receiving talent that we might see in the '11 draft.

What is a legitimate comparison? It's not like we need to find evidence that a guy with Baldwin's skills can succeed in the NFL. I think that's obvious enough. Once that's confirmed, bringing non-related players into the discussion brings you further away from relevant, not closer.

LonghornsLegend
07-03-2010, 03:13 AM
I get that, but I also rarely see threads in this forum where player comparisons don't come up, it's not like people were just randomly discussing topics that had nothing to do with Baldwin at all. But w/e, I'm starting to do just what I said wasn't going on. I just think your comment was more random and off topic then the previous ones discussing comparisons.

bce
07-03-2010, 12:42 PM
If you're gonna rep 'em, know your squad, bce!!

Gilbert was drafted 3rd overall by the Rams. He played much of his career with the Panthers, ( '98 - '02), but he never lived up to his draft status.


You are correct sir my apologies. i guess the point was is that he had a better than average nfl career. May not have lived up to his draft status as the third pick, but certainly had an above average nfl career.

bce
07-03-2010, 12:47 PM
I see people arguing about disparities in talent level between the player at issue and the comparison being evoked, but not about how Baldwin's skill set will sit in the NFL or how he compares to the other top receiving talent that we might see in the '11 draft.

What is a legitimate comparison? It's not like we need to find evidence that a guy with Baldwin's skills can succeed in the NFL. I think that's obvious enough. Once that's confirmed, bringing non-related players into the discussion brings you further away from relevant, not closer.


I think that comparing prospects to current nfl players is certainly a valid measuring stick. That is going to be the "competition". I agree sean gilbert has nothing to do with baldwin other than they are both from aliquippa and per capita aliquippa is the greatest football breeding ground on earth.

I think "who do they look like" is certainly one of the factors required in evaluating prospects. For me baldwin looks like calvin johnson, but not as soft and injury prone. They dont grow football panzies where baldwin comes from.

phlysac
07-05-2010, 04:31 PM
Interesting that so many posts mention Aliquippa yet none mention Tony Dorsett. Not football but Pete Maravich was from Quip as well. Hopewell highschool turns out studs just like Quip high does. Dorsett was from Hopewell as was Paul Posluzny. Keep your eye open for current Hopewell RB Rushel Shell who, only a Jr., will likely be a 5-star recruit in 2011.

Baldwin does have some character concerns. He seems he can't keep his hands to himself regarding the women.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4157114

There was ONE incident of him slapping a girls butt. No other official reports.

Hines
07-05-2010, 04:35 PM
Interesting that so many posts mention Aliquippa yet none mention Tony Dorsett. Not football but Pete Maravich was from Quip as well. Hopewell highschool turns out studs just like Quip high does. Dorsett was from Hopewell as was Paul Posluzny. Keep your eye open for current Hopewell RB Rushel Shell who, only a Jr., will likely be a 5-star recruit in 2011.



There was ONE incident of him slapping a girls butt. No other official reports.

Shell is a monster. With me moving up there in Decemer, I hope to catch him a few times.

Either way, it's still an incident. Teams will bring it up.

Sniper
07-05-2010, 04:57 PM
There was ONE incident of him slapping a girls butt. No other official reports.

If slapping a girl's booty is wrong...

prock
07-05-2010, 05:04 PM
Yeah he slapped a girl's ass, he has major character concerns. Red flag! This guy is a bust, he slapped a girl's ass!

Hines
07-05-2010, 05:08 PM
Yeah he slapped a girl's ass, he has major character concerns. Red flag! This guy is a bust, he slapped a girl's ass!

Just saying that teams might think this leads to more trouble. I personally think it's no big deal and he shouldn't have gotten arrested for that.

LonghornsLegend
07-05-2010, 05:50 PM
Interesting that so many posts mention Aliquippa yet none mention Tony Dorsett. Not football but Pete Maravich was from Quip as well. Hopewell highschool turns out studs just like Quip high does. Dorsett was from Hopewell as was Paul Posluzny. Keep your eye open for current Hopewell RB Rushel Shell who, only a Jr., will likely be a 5-star recruit in 2011.
.


I completely forgot about Dorsett, good one. Joe Namath was from Beaver Falls too, which is totally irrelevant but since were on the topic of big time players from that area screw it.

Hines
07-05-2010, 06:05 PM
There are A LOT of Hall of Famers from Western PA.

bce
07-06-2010, 07:08 PM
Interesting that so many posts mention Aliquippa yet none mention Tony Dorsett. Not football but Pete Maravich was from Quip as well. Hopewell highschool turns out studs just like Quip high does. Dorsett was from Hopewell as was Paul Posluzny. Keep your eye open for current Hopewell RB Rushel Shell who, only a Jr., will likely be a 5-star recruit in 2011.



There was ONE incident of him slapping a girls butt. No other official reports.

Tony dorsett went to hopewell, but hes actually from aliquippa.

Anyone who knows knows theres a big difference between aliquippa and hopewell.

bce
07-06-2010, 07:10 PM
If you take a point in the middle of downtown pittsburgh, draw a radius line 50 miles, then draw a circle, within that circle, the greatest number of superstar football players in the world come from in that circle.

FUNBUNCHER
07-07-2010, 06:51 PM
I'll have to make a list one day, bce, but the tidewater area of southern Virginia and South Florida would go man for man against the football talent produced in Pittsburgh metro area.

RealityCheck
07-07-2010, 07:14 PM
Don't forget SoCal and the Houston area too.

bce
07-07-2010, 07:55 PM
Youre also talking about areas with 5x the population in houston and socal. Never the less, ill put the all time all west pa squad up against anyone.

Tidewater of virginia Mike vick and plax? yeah, no way. Socal maybe a run for the money. But ill still put the west pa team up against them any day, with about 1/5 of the population to choose from.

FUNBUNCHER
07-07-2010, 10:26 PM
Youre also talking about areas with 5x the population in houston and socal. Never the less, ill put the all time all west pa squad up against anyone.

Tidewater of virginia Mike vick and plax? yeah, no way. Socal maybe a run for the money. But ill still put the west pa team up against them any day, with about 1/5 of the population to choose from.

The Richmond/Tidewater area produced Bruce Smith and Charles Haley and Lawrence Taylor, just off the top.

Western PA has produced Unitas/Namath/Marino/Montana - an untouchable # of QBs to come from the same geographical region, but I'd put those defenders from the Tidewater area up against any 3.

Hines
07-07-2010, 11:35 PM
QB: Unitas/Namath/Marino/Kelly/Montana/Blanda

phlysac
07-08-2010, 06:55 PM
Tony dorsett went to hopewell, but hes actually from aliquippa.

Anyone who knows knows theres a big difference between aliquippa and hopewell.

Socio-economically, sure but Hopewell Township is part of Aliquippa. Serious nits to be picked, I guess.

Hines
07-08-2010, 07:38 PM
Socio-economically, sure but Hopewell Township is part of Aliquippa. Serious nits to be picked, I guess.

Yeah I don't think there is a huge difference. Only difference is that Hopewell and Center Townships(Aliquippa adresses) aren't grimy and ghetto. Downtown Aliquippa is.

bce
07-08-2010, 09:56 PM
well the next time you take 60 up past the airport get off at the hopewll exit drive around for a while then take the aliquippa exit drive around for a while and tell if theres any "difference"

brat316
07-09-2010, 01:16 AM
Baldwin is not CJ doesn't have the speed or enough mass on his body. He is pretty thin looking.

Baldwin really reminds me of Plax but with much better leaping ability, body control and the ability to find the ball. That diving catch into the endzone, or just plucking the ball away from the ND corner right over top of they guys head. But I can't see him going over the middle and not getting destroyed. If anything were to hold him back at the next level it would have to be the small things like knowing how to get separation. And learning to run routes while doing those small things. NFL cbs aren't going to give him that much room. But man can this kid find his way back to the ball.

The only guys I have a hard time of seeing not finding success from the big 4 is Julio Jones. Its seems as though he doesn't get better and just keeps relying on his natural abilities.

FUNBUNCHER
07-09-2010, 01:55 AM
Baldwin is almost 230#!! HE's a gigantic WR.

bce
07-09-2010, 05:58 PM
Baldwin is not CJ doesn't have the speed or enough mass on his body. He is pretty thin looking.

Baldwin really reminds me of Plax but with much better leaping ability, body control and the ability to find the ball. That diving catch into the endzone, or just plucking the ball away from the ND corner right over top of they guys head. But I can't see him going over the middle and not getting destroyed. If anything were to hold him back at the next level it would have to be the small things like knowing how to get separation. And learning to run routes while doing those small things. NFL cbs aren't going to give him that much room. But man can this kid find his way back to the ball.

The only guys I have a hard time of seeing not finding success from the big 4 is Julio Jones. Its seems as though he doesn't get better and just keeps relying on his natural abilities.


Hes 228. I mean if aj green can go over the middle and not get killed im quite sure baldwin can. Since hes bigger and tougher. Hes going to be bigger than 95%of nfl dbs.

He obviously is better at getting separation than aj green.

Hes "rumored" to be sub 4.4 which is calvin johnson speed. One thing he has over "megatron" is that hes not an injury prone soft serve type like johnson.

There it is again. evaluating on intangibles when the truth is right staring you in the face but cant quite seem to admit it. He makes too many big plays to not get "separation". Every time an elite recieving prospect appears they can never "run routes" and every time some undertalent fraud with limited ability comes out theyre always "great route runners" and "do the little things".


Jonathan baldwin does the big things. The elites at the position do the big things.

Sniper
07-09-2010, 06:01 PM
Hes 228. I mean if aj green can go over the middle and not get killed im quite sure baldwin can. Since hes bigger and tougher. Hes going to be bigger than 95%of nfl dbs.

At 6'6", 230 pounds, he'll be bigger than 100 percent of NFL DBs.

A Perfect Score
07-09-2010, 06:05 PM
Hes 228. I mean if aj green can go over the middle and not get killed im quite sure baldwin can. Since hes bigger and tougher. Hes going to be bigger than 95%of nfl dbs.

He obviously is better at getting separation than aj green.

Hes "rumored" to be sub 4.4 which is calvin johnson speed. One thing he has over "megatron" is that hes not an injury prone soft serve type like johnson.

There it is again. evaluating on intangibles when the truth is right staring you in the face but cant quite seem to admit it. He makes too many big plays to not get "separation". Every time an elite recieving prospect appears they can never "run routes" and every time some undertalent fraud with limited ability comes out theyre always "great route runners" and "do the little things".


Jonathan baldwin does the big things. The elites at the position do the big things.

Thats because it takes more to be an elite player then just being a good athlete. There are plenty of amazing athletes, especially at the WR position, who have failed in the pros due to a lack of technical polish or an inability to run proper routes. In fact, Id venture to say that besides QB, WR is the position most likely to bust, and they are often selected highly because of physical attributes. Just look at someone like Troy Williamson. Elite physical tools, but he runs shoddy routes and cant catch to save his life. Not saying that Baldwin compares favorably to Williamson, but I absolutely agree with the sentiment that Baldwin has alot of polishing to do before hes ready to produce at an NFL level.

bce
07-09-2010, 06:13 PM
Why does he need more "polishing"? Hes obviously making the plays between the white lines. If he couldnt get open, i'd agree with you, but if hes getting open all the time and making huge plays im not sure how he needs more polish, or at least, more polish than the "competition" at the position in this years draft. These other guys get open less, make less plays but theyre the more "polished".

I can just never agree with these descriptions. Runs bad routes, isnt polished, doesnt do the little things, i would never evaluate that way. i'd never look at a player on film and say he needs more polish.

If hes burning everybody and making huge plays thats enough for me. If he shows hands and the ability to not be able to be covered, i just cant agree with those types of assesments.

Those assesments to me are cop outs and excuses to find something wrong, when you cant find it physically and you cant find it between the white lines this is what i always hear.

A Perfect Score
07-09-2010, 06:16 PM
Lots of times people are capable of making plays at a college level because they can get by on pure athleticism, but that isnt going to fly in the pros. Baldwin is highly athletic, but he isn't going to scare anyone with his route running abilities or technical prowess. It isnt a cop out, its the truth.

brat316
07-09-2010, 06:36 PM
Good cb in the NFL will be able to read him easily if he is going to be in the play or not if he doesn't work on the little things. Revis called Moss and Owens lazy, why because he was able to tell when they were in the play if they went all out or ran effortlessly, I know that is an extreme example but it shows cb will be able to read him.


I forget who the WR and Cb were, but the Cb said the WR always ran his routes and got off the ball the exact same way each time. Either if its a run play or pass, or if the ball is coming to him or not little things like that he would have to work on.

As APS there are lots of guys who get by just using their natural abilities and never learn the nuisance of the position. And when they get to the NFL they usually bust since they are so set in using their speed to burn by cbs.

bce
07-09-2010, 06:36 PM
Randy moss doesnt make plays based on pure athleticism?

And how do you know he doesnt run good routes or have "technical prowess"?

Hes obviously getting open. Where do you get this information from?

A Perfect Score
07-09-2010, 07:55 PM
Its called watching game film you ignorant buffoon. Everyone and their mothers knows that Randy Moss is an exception to the rule. As nice of an athlete as Baldwin is, he's nowhere near Randy Moss as an athlete or as a receiver. More importantly, Moss is notorious for running bad routes and not trying on plays that he isnt involved in. Some of the best receivers in history, ie Jerry ******* Rice, have overcome subpar physical tools because of their technical prowess and route running skills.

Are you honestly stupid enough to tell me that despite Jonathon Baldwin's superior athleticism, you would rather have him then Jerry Rice?

FUNBUNCHER
07-09-2010, 08:15 PM
'Ignorant buffoon'?? Not really necessary to go ad hominem.

Randy Moss isn't the only WR in the NFL who relies heavily on his athletic tools; i.e., superior quickness, height or straight line speed. It's not a sin, but to be successful long term you need to become a technician at the WR position an learn how to get a CB out of position or take a false step based on how well you set up a route.

I don't see Baldwin run that many double moves or stop and go routes, probably because he doesn't have to playing for Pitt. But young WRs who don't master the art of route running will never get open enough to even catch the ball, much less have a chance to use their long speed to outrun the secondary.

As for Rice, I would never use the term 'sub par' to describe his physical tools;6 feet, two inches tall, sticky hands/finger strength, elite concentration and hand-eye coordination, superior quickness in and out of cuts, explosive runner after the catch, and according to Gil Brandt, sub 4.5 speed.

Recall that many of Rice's longer TD runs were when he caught a 15 yard slant from Montana and ran 40 yards to the endzone.

Even Deion Sanders had difficulty checking Rice because of his route running skills and outstanding game speed.

A Perfect Score
07-09-2010, 08:35 PM
Much of what you described about Rice was technical superiority and not based off his physical tools. First off, 6'2 isnt overly impressive, his "sticky hands" are undoubtedly a result of practice and not really based on physical skills, and Id venture to say the same about concentration and quickness in and out of cuts. I dont really buy the sub 4.5 speed cause if you watch Rice play, he was never a burner.

You said it yourself, Sanders had trouble covering Rice because of his route running skills, not cause he could run a 4.3.

And ignorant buffoon is absolutely justified when talking about bce. Hes far and away one of the worst posters this board has ever seen. His lack of knowledge is rivaled by few.

FUNBUNCHER
07-09-2010, 09:29 PM
Name calling is opinion, not factually based. How does one establish a 'proof' that one is an 'ignorant buffoon'??
Just saying, name calling IMO kills any chance at having a civil discourse about sports.

bce IMO can be strident and overly opinionated, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him 'ignorant' or a 'buffoon'.

When I think about a player's physical tools to excel at a given position, I tend to include more than height/weight/speed/vert/quickness, I also consider mental capacity/psychological make-up as a 'physical gift', that is, an innate ability one is essentially born with.
Yes, 'hands' for a WR can be developed, to a point, but the raw ability to catch a football, IMO is more a physical gift than a skill. Former Vikes 1st round WR Troy Williamson ran a low 4.3 and had a 41 inch vert, but simply didn't have the hand-eye coordination or natural hands to catch the football.

There's no stat for him, but I would love to see how many ball Rice dropped that were considered catchable after his rookie season.

Barry Sanders was blessed with short area quickness, as was Rice, although not to the same degree. Rice's quickness was his ace in the hole, and really what allowed him to consistently beat single and double coverage, along with the timing routes in the WCO where the ball typically was thrown before Rice came out of break.

I just don't like the revisionist tone when it comes to quantifying why Jerry Rice had so much success on the football field.

Know the WR who most reminds me of Rice in his prime?? It's Marvin Harrison.

Rice was a bigger, stronger version of Harrison, but their games are very similar; incredible hands, route running, quickness, and the ability to outrun the secondary if they got behind the safeties.

I've seen Rice burn D Green too many times in playoff games to believe that Jerry Rice wasn't a superior physical talent at WR.

And you wanna know who started the 'rumor' that Rice was a 4.6 WR, instead of crediting him with the 4.4 he ran predraft at Mississippi Valley State??

Bill Walsh.

Imagine that.

A Perfect Score
07-09-2010, 09:39 PM
Name calling is opinion, not factually based. How does one establish a 'proof' that one is an 'ignorant buffoon'??
Just saying, name calling IMO kills any chance at having a civil discourse about sports.

bce IMO can be strident and overly opinionated, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him 'ignorant' or a 'buffoon'.

When I think about a player's physical tools to excel at a given position, I tend to include more than height/weight/speed/vert/quickness, I also consider mental capacity/psychological make-up as a 'physical gift', that is, an innate ability one is essentially born with.
Yes, 'hands' for a WR can be developed, to a point, but the raw ability to catch a football, IMO is more a physical gift than a skill. Former Vikes 1st round WR Troy Williamson ran a low 4.3 and had a 41 inch vert, but simply didn't have the hand-eye coordination or natural hands to catch the football.

There's no stat for him, but I would love to see how many ball Rice dropped that were considered catchable after his rookie season.

Barry Sanders was blessed with short area quickness, as was Rice, although not to the same degree. Rice's quickness was his ace in the hole, and really what allowed him to consistently beat single and double coverage, along with the timing routes in the WCO where the ball typically was thrown before Rice came out of break.

I just don't like the revisionist tone when it comes to quantifying why Jerry Rice had so much success on the football field.

Know the WR who most reminds me of Rice in his prime?? It's Marvin Harrison.

Rice was a bigger, stronger version of Harrison, but their games are very similar; incredible hands, route running, quickness, and the ability to outrun the secondary if they got behind the safeties.

I've seen Rice burn D Green too many times in playoff games to believe that Jerry Rice wasn't a superior physical talent at WR.

And you wanna know who started the 'rumor' that Rice was a 4.6 WR, instead of crediting him with the 4.4 he ran predraft at Mississippi Valley State??

Bill Walsh.

Imagine that.

Im going to stick with ignorant buffoon when discussing bce. Hes a blatant troll who pollutes the board with his ********, and unfortunately the censors wont allow me to adequately express the way I feel about his posts. That said, Im pretty sure you and Told are the only people who would defend him. This is the same person who tried to convince us all that in a man coverage system, it isnt the corners responsibility to prevent his man from getting in the end zone. Keep that in mind.

As far as Rice is concerned, I supposed its opinion, but I absolutely consider Rice's concentration, hand eye coordination, hands, route running, and most of the other reasons hes the best WR of all time to be developed skills. Say what you will, but there have been a multitude of WR's who have had far superior physical traits to Jerry Rice and aren't a hundredth of the receiver. Thats due to the importance of technical ability and dedication.

bce can say what he likes about Baldwin: the fact of the matter is that hes a blatant Pitt homer and his arguments usually revolve around his opinion rather then what "ESPN says". Baldwin needs to refine several aspects of his game before Im ready to put him above AJ Green and Michael Floyd. Hell, if you asked me to draft a receiver to play tomorrow in the NFL, Id take Julio Jones over him as well and I can almost promise you I wouldnt be the only person who would say that.

FUNBUNCHER
07-09-2010, 09:58 PM
Just curious, why would you favor Julio Jones over Baldwin at this point?

Baldwin seems to get open at will, and is always in a position it seems to make a play on the ball.

Julio Jones may not have the ball thrown his way 90 times in a season, but he appears to struggle to separate, from the games I've seen.

Really, I think the top WR prospects going into the 2011 draft, Baldwin/Green/Jones/Floyd are very similar players and all bring similar games to the football field.

Stats in 2010 and predraft testing will be what finally separates them all.

brat316
07-09-2010, 10:19 PM
Yeah...I like Baldwin more the Jones at this point.

AJ
Floyd
Baldwin
Jones.

A Perfect Score
07-09-2010, 10:25 PM
Just curious, why would you favor Julio Jones over Baldwin at this point?

Baldwin seems to get open at will, and is always in a position it seems to make a play on the ball.

Julio Jones may not have the ball thrown his way 90 times in a season, but he appears to struggle to separate, from the games I've seen.

Really, I think the top WR prospects going into the 2011 draft, Baldwin/Green/Jones/Floyd are very similar players and all bring similar games to the football field.

Stats in 2010 and predraft testing will be what finally separates them all.

Jones is a much more polished route runner and hes a magnificent blocker, and while he isnt 6'6 230, hes still a great athletic specimen and Ill take his technical abilities over Baldwin at this point. That said, Ive reiterated several times that if Baldwin shows us what hes capable of this year he could jump all the way to the #1 WR slot. Although Im a huge Michael Floyd fan, and I think if he stays healthy this year it isnt even a competition as to who the #1 WR is.

will99890
07-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Baldwin seems a little slow when I watch him. Definitely has the vertical, but not sold on the speed. And I don't think he plays quite as big and strong as he should.

1. Green
2. Jones
3. Floyd
4. Baldwin

prock
07-12-2010, 02:26 PM
I can just never agree with these descriptions. Runs bad routes, isnt polished, doesnt do the little things, i would never evaluate that way. i'd never look at a player on film and say he needs more polish.



That's because you don't know anything about football.

VUBlacknGold
07-12-2010, 02:28 PM
That's because you don't know anything about football.

just ignore him, he only watches the Underwear bowl, watching them run around half naked, judging how good they are off that along with projected stats

bce
07-12-2010, 07:21 PM
Its called watching game film you ignorant buffoon. Everyone and their mothers knows that Randy Moss is an exception to the rule. As nice of an athlete as Baldwin is, he's nowhere near Randy Moss as an athlete or as a receiver. More importantly, Moss is notorious for running bad routes and not trying on plays that he isnt involved in. Some of the best receivers in history, ie Jerry ******* Rice, have overcome subpar physical tools because of their technical prowess and route running skills.

Are you honestly stupid enough to tell me that despite Jonathon Baldwin's superior athleticism, you would rather have him then Jerry Rice?

But randy moss is still one of the greatest to ever play the game is he not?
Baldwin is very randy moss-esque. Hes the same size, makes the same type of plays, huge plays, is rumored to have similar physical abilities.

And please explain to me how it is from the tape that you can discern that he doesnt run good routes and needs more polish, if youve ever even watched any tape, which i doubt.

I wouldnt rather have him than the greatest of all time, but comparing jonathan baldwins value to the greatest of all time is well, thats lofty expectations. Now ask me if i'd rather have him than anyone in this years draft most certainly and theres not really a close second, not in the games or from a physical standpoint.

bce
07-12-2010, 07:24 PM
Much of what you described about Rice was technical superiority and not based off his physical tools. First off, 6'2 isnt overly impressive, his "sticky hands" are undoubtedly a result of practice and not really based on physical skills, and Id venture to say the same about concentration and quickness in and out of cuts. I dont really buy the sub 4.5 speed cause if you watch Rice play, he was never a burner.

You said it yourself, Sanders had trouble covering Rice because of his route running skills, not cause he could run a 4.3.

And ignorant buffoon is absolutely justified when talking about bce. Hes far and away one of the worst posters this board has ever seen. His lack of knowledge is rivaled by few.


Again youre using the greatest to ever play the game as your comparison point.

Youre just mad because i embarrassed you knowing more about the cover 2 than you do. So much for ignorance.