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onejayhawk
07-25-2010, 04:01 PM
Now that camp is about to start, the fuss about the draft is largely over, and reality is about to manifest. For an informal concensus of the draft, see http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40963

My question is, based on OTAs and Mini camps, where is the cocensus off? Is, for example, Baltimore's top rated draft, really mediocre? It would not take much. Mount Cody could be a 1 down specialist, with no endurance. Sergio Kindle could be forever medical. On the other hand, was Denver's much panned reach for Tim Tebow really genius?

I am a Chiefs guy, so I withold, for now my opinion on them.
Liked: Buffalo. Regardless of how you regard Spiller, this was a good draft for their defense. Troup is one of the best NT prospects, While Carrington should be a solid run stuffer at DE. They also got a solid QB flier in Levi Brown. You could not remake that team in one draft, but they did inject some play making and remade the DL.

Disliked: It is still early, but I wonder if Philly wasted a huge haul of picks, in one of the best classes. Other than Graham, is there a starter in the bunch?

J

Sniper
07-25-2010, 04:13 PM
Disliked: It is still early, but I wonder if Philly wasted a huge haul of picks, in one of the best classes. Other than Graham, is there a starter in the bunch?

http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00038/c4s_usf091608_38190c.jpeg

AntoinCD
07-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Now that camp is about to start, the fuss about the draft is largely over, and reality is about to manifest. For an informal concensus of the draft, see http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40963

My question is, based on OTAs and Mini camps, where is the cocensus off? Is, for example, Baltimore's top rated draft, really mediocre? It would not take much. Mount Cody could be a 1 down specialist, with no endurance. Sergio Kindle could be forever medical. On the other hand, was Denver's much panned reach for Tim Tebow really genius?

I am a Chiefs guy, so I withold, for now my opinion on them.
Liked: Buffalo. Regardless of how you regard Spiller, this was a good draft for their defense. Troup is one of the best NT prospects, While Carrington should be a solid run stuffer at DE. They also got a solid QB flier in Levi Brown. You could not remake that team in one draft, but they did inject some play making and remade the DL.

Disliked: It is still early, but I wonder if Philly wasted a huge haul of picks, in one of the best classes. Other than Graham, is there a starter in the bunch?

J

Buffalo??? Really? I would come close to saying they had the worst draft of any team. They had huge needs at QB, OT, pass rusher. When where they addressed? Ed Wang in the 5th? Levi Brown in the 7th? They got a luxury pick in Spiller which they couldnt afford to take, then filled it out with some solid guys later on.

An overrated draft I would say is the Raiders. It seems like they're getting graded on a curve. It was a solid draft, nothing spectacular.

An underrated draft I would say is Seattle. They got some real good players at good value.

Also in regards to how many starters it is unfair to judge. Poor teams should be looking for four or five starters. However good teams may not have any starters from a draft class for a while. The Colts may only have one starter from their draft class this year. It doesn't make it a poor draft. The Saints may not have one starter this year etc.

wicket
07-25-2010, 05:18 PM
The Saints may not have one starter this year etc.

that works against your argument as the saints draft was terrible

princefielder28
07-25-2010, 06:34 PM
I'll agree with you on Buffalo...I absolutely loved their draft, especially taking Troup to anchor their 3-4 defense

eagles6606
07-25-2010, 07:08 PM
Underrated:
-Titans: Derrick Morgan was the surest DE in the draft, Damian Williams should be a great compliment to Britt and was a steal in the 3rd round, Rennie Curran was ultra produce in college with great instincts and a high football IQ (should be a starter at WLB), Alterraun Verner has a good skill set, and Myron Rolle can make the team he should be a great asset in the lockeroom.
-Rams: They get their QB of the future in Bradford, Saffold will give the Rams a good pair of tackles with Jason Smith, Jerome Murphy is ultra talented and should be a starter, Gilliard is a playmaker, and getting Selvie in the 7th round is pretty good value.
-Saints: Patrick Robinson will allow Malcolm Jenkings to move to safety and gives the Sanits 3 good corners in a passing league, Charles Brown should develop into a solid starter, Jimmy Graham is an athletic freak who gives the Saints another weapon, Al Woods gives the Saints a stout DT, Tennant should also develop into a starter, and Canfield could be a good backup for Saints.

P-L
07-25-2010, 09:28 PM
I didn't care for Buffalo's draft, but it has been a bit underrated. You can't fault them for not taking a QB, if there wasn't a QB that they liked. It was apparent that they did not care for Clausen and after the top two guys, the rest of the QB's were backups at best. They still added a playmaker in the 1st round who can contribute in three phases (rushing, receiving, and as a returner) and got two potential future starters on the defensive line for their new 3-4 scheme. Not a great draft by any stretch, but I don't think it was the worst draft either.

Zowie:Ruck Fules
07-25-2010, 09:47 PM
Liked: Buccaneers, raiders, lions

Disliked: jaguars, bills,

SenorGato
07-25-2010, 10:23 PM
I'll agree with you on Buffalo...I absolutely loved their draft, especially taking Troup to anchor their 3-4 defense

Yep. Don't get why they got trashed...Spiller was a steal at 9 and there's good talent behind him...led by Troup.

AntoinCD
07-26-2010, 02:46 AM
that works against your argument as the saints draft was terrible

Not really. I wasn't arguing that either the Colts or Saints had good drafts but I was saying that good teams have very few holes and therefore judging drafts by how many starters there are is a bit redundant

onejayhawk
07-26-2010, 08:29 AM
Buffalo??? Really? I would come close to saying they had the worst draft of any team. They had huge needs at QB, OT, pass rusher. When where they addressed? Ed Wang in the 5th? Levi Brown in the 7th? They got a luxury pick in Spiller which they couldnt afford to take, then filled it out with some solid guys later on.

An overrated draft I would say is the Raiders. It seems like they're getting graded on a curve. It was a solid draft, nothing spectacular.

An underrated draft I would say is Seattle. They got some real good players at good value.

Also in regards to how many starters it is unfair to judge. Poor teams should be looking for four or five starters. However good teams may not have any starters from a draft class for a while. The Colts may only have one starter from their draft class this year. It doesn't make it a poor draft. The Saints may not have one starter this year etc.

The Raiders did well to get Veldheer in round three, and very well with Bruce Campbell in the 4th. Still, it was the trades and signings that impressed most people. Getting Campbell for a 4th was larceny. He's going to make the Pro Bowl for them, though probably not this year.

I do not get your criticism of Buffalo. They could not fix everything that needs fixing, and they did not have a LT or QB fall in their lap, unless you count Claussen. In that regard they had a lot of company. They could have taken Charles Brown in round 2, but they were correct to go with Troupe. They may not have gotten what many believe were the top 2 concerns, but they got the backbone of a revamped defense. There upgrade at NT is bigger than they could have done at LT, plus they got one of those hard to get 5 techs to play beside him. I also like the Moats pick. Getting DEs taht convert well to OLB is a crap shoot, but he is a good throw of the dice.

If your problem is with Spiller, I just have to disagree. He was excellent value where he was taken. He may never be an every down RB, but mate him with a good pounder and he will produce, plus he can play slot receiver and be a Pro Bowl return man. It is rarely a mistake to sharply upgrade a position. Bottom line on this draft is that they may have gotten three rookie starters, as many as five in all, including a Future Pro Bowler. That is a successful draft.

J

AntoinCD
07-26-2010, 08:51 AM
The Raiders did well to get Veldheer in round three, and very well with Bruce Campbell in the 4th. Still, it was the trades and signings that impressed most people. Getting Campbell for a 4th was larceny. He's going to make the Pro Bowl for them, though probably not this year.

I do not get your criticism of Buffalo. They could not fix everything that needs fixing, and they did not have a LT or QB fall in their lap, unless you count Claussen. In that regard they had a lot of company. They could have taken Charles Brown in round 2, but they were correct to go with Troupe. They may not have gotten what many believe were the top 2 concerns, but they got the backbone of a revamped defense. There upgrade at NT is bigger than they could have done at LT, plus they got one of those hard to get 5 techs to play beside him. I also like the Moats pick. Getting DEs taht convert well to OLB is a crap shoot, but he is a good throw of the dice.

If your problem is with Spiller, I just have to disagree. He was excellent value where he was taken. He may never be an every down RB, but mate him with a good pounder and he will produce, plus he can play slot receiver and be a Pro Bowl return man. It is rarely a mistake to sharply upgrade a position. Bottom line on this draft is that they may have gotten three rookie starters, as many as five in all, including a Future Pro Bowler. That is a successful draft.

J

As for the Raiders draft I was just stating I think people are giving them a pass because they didn't screw anything up.

As for Buffalo we are clearly going to disagree. Spiller will be a good player, however using a top ten pick on a player who will not be an every down RB, for a team with a plethora of needs, who also already have two 1000yd rushers is not a good value IMO.

I dont necessarily believe you should only take positions of need during the draft and sometimes BPA is the right option. However it isn't like Spiller was clearly the best value and they had no choice but to take him. They could have taken Anthony Davis and that wouldn't have been considered a reach. Same goes with Brandon Graham, Jason Pierre-Paul, Derrick Morgan etc.

I don't blame then for passing on Clausen in the first and even in the second because clearly teams saw things that we all didn't. However they didn't address their main needs until later in the draft. If any of those players become more than back ups or part time starters then that's a bonus.

I am also assuming you are referring to Spiller as the future pro bowler. IMO that is a little presumptive as the guy has never taken a snap and in the AFC he has to compete with these young RBs.

Chris Johnson, Maurice Jones-Drew, Ray Rice, Shonn Green, Jamal Charles, Rashard Mendenhall, Fred Jackson etc. For a guy who will probably never carry the load he may struggle to put up impressive enough numbers.

Buffalo brought in some players who will help their team however they have failed once again to address their most important needs. Defensively they should be around average however who is going to throw the ball? Outside of Evans who is going to catch it? Who is going to block for the three highly rated RBs?

I fail to see how this can be classed as a successful draft

K Train
07-26-2010, 09:00 AM
i like the lions, the bucs, the raiders the best honestly

I love suh, best was a huge need and spievy is a nice CB prospect to bolster their defense.

the bucs got a ton filled, i wasnt in love with mccoy but mccoy+price=sick and add in benn/mike williams its an awesome injection of youth to their dline and wrs

weird to say the raiders had a good draft but they really did. mccain is gonne be a hammer in the middle of a defense thats looking pretty solid and veldheer and campell could be a pretty sick set of tackles

i also envy the seahawks....okung, earl thomas (my man crush) and tate...that **** isnt fair

princefielder28
07-26-2010, 09:04 AM
Hey, when talking about the positives of the Raiders draft don't forget about Lamarr Houston

thenewfeature06
07-26-2010, 09:16 AM
Hey, when talking about the positives of the Raiders draft don't forget about Lamarr Houston

Yeah no doubt.. not sure what he will be playing but that is because it is still not official what we will be playing on defense. He can play either DT or 3-4 end I am guessing.

Lions also had a sleeper draft if Jahvid can stay healthy the kid can be an absolute threat.

Go_Eagles77
07-26-2010, 09:55 AM
Disliked: It is still early, but I wonder if Philly wasted a huge haul of picks, in one of the best classes. Other than Graham, is there a starter in the bunch?

J
Epic fail, considering Nate Allen is the only rookie who is currently #1 on the depth chart.

RealityCheck
07-26-2010, 10:38 AM
Overrated: The Patriots. Yeah, we surely got many guys, but... our needs weren't solved at all.

AntoinCD
07-26-2010, 10:46 AM
Overrated: The Patriots. Yeah, we surely got many guys, but... our needs weren't solved at all.

Gotta disagree here I think it's pretty fairly rated at the moment. Most would agree that the Pats biggest needs included OLB, ILB and TE. All 3 were taken by the end of the 2nd round. They could have taken Jared Odrick instead of McCourty but that would be a mistake as McCourty is a cross between Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Mel Blount with the return capabilities of Devin Hester and Josh Cribbs. Simply put...he is sex on wheels

RealityCheck
07-26-2010, 10:53 AM
Gotta disagree here I think it's pretty fairly rated at the moment. Most would agree that the Pats biggest needs included OLB, ILB and TE. All 3 were taken by the end of the 2nd round. They could have taken Jared Odrick instead of McCourty but that would be a mistake as McCourty is a cross between Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Mel Blount with the return capabilities of Devin Hester and Josh Cribbs. Simply put...he is sex on wheels
Ha, I know that. <3 McCourty.
But where's that playmaking RB? Where's our DE of the future? And why did we wait too long for a QB? Those are the questions, where's our answers?

ThePudge
07-26-2010, 12:22 PM
The Raiders draft has absolutely been graded on a curve. If Rolando McClain was drafted by Cleveland at 7 most of us would be talking about him being a reach, saying the Browns may have made another mistake; however, since the Raiders selected someone who remotely fits their system/needs and doesn't exactly sting value wise, we praise them for making a pretty typical pick. They get bumped from a B to an A just because they didn't screw it up. That doesn't mean they had a great draft, it means people can't disconnect memories from prior drafts.

Their draft was, once again, full of boom-or-bust players with outstanding physical ability and there's a distinct possibility that they may only have gotten 1 or 2 future starters. Much better than in year's past, but it would be considered an ordinary draft had it been the Kansas City Chiefs (or any other team) so I refuse to compromise my opinion based on the fact that Al Davis is senile.

It's easy to berate teams like Buffalo, who came into the draft with 10 needs and only managed to fill 3 or 4... They are truly a rebuilding franchise who aren't just trying to throw a team on the field to be competitive this year, this is a multi-year process and they're chipping away wherever suits their taste best. They've gotten a decent start on establishing a 3-4 scheme and they've managed to shore up their interior OL (2009) and running game. They'll likely be back in the Top 10 the next two years... but five years down the line they may be nothing short of loaded.

I liked Philadelphia's draft with Brandon Graham and Nate Allen striking me as true defensive impact players in the future. I thought much more highly on Cincinnati's draft than most of the public, perhaps because I was so much higher on Jermaine Gresham than most and I knew that Safety wasn't an urgent need for the team at this time. St. Louis had one of my favorite drafts of the year by making the right choice at 1st Overall and also keeping level-headed taking an athletic OL in Rodger Saffold, a big, physical corner in Jerome Murphy, and a reliable & quick receiver in Mardy Gilyard.

I don't like Cleveland's draft all too much as I don't think they're building in the ideal AFC North model. I thought New England really took a lot of shots early with Spikes and Cunningham in the Second, but I do like the Gronkowski pick if he can manage to stay healthy & Devin McCourty was a smart pick even if he never exactly lives up to a First Round pick... you simply cannot have too many good corners. Though I do think he'll produce (at least early on) I didn't like San Diego's choice in Ryan Matthews, who to me was an early Second Round talent. The rest of their draft was fine, though unspectacular.

K Train
07-26-2010, 12:28 PM
Gotta disagree here I think it's pretty fairly rated at the moment. Most would agree that the Pats biggest needs included OLB, ILB and TE. All 3 were taken by the end of the 2nd round. They could have taken Jared Odrick instead of McCourty but that would be a mistake as McCourty is a cross between Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Mel Blount with the return capabilities of Devin Hester and Josh Cribbs. Simply put...he is sex on wheels

not high on mcourty at all are you?

christ lol

AntoinCD
07-26-2010, 03:37 PM
not high on mcourty at all are you?

christ lol

Lol I may have exaggerated slightly there. I didnt know how to feel at the time he was selected because I liked him as a prospect but thought the Patriots were ok at CB. But from seeing more of him and reading about him I think i'm in love. All I need now is for him and Rob Gronkowski to have a baby and I'm set. I can see it now.

Robyn McGronky; 6'6, 265 lbs, 4.38 40 who plays a bit of TE and CB

AntoinCD
07-26-2010, 03:42 PM
The Raiders draft has absolutely been graded on a curve. If Rolando McClain was drafted by Cleveland at 7 most of us would be talking about him being a reach, saying the Browns may have made another mistake; however, since the Raiders selected someone who remotely fits their system/needs and doesn't exactly sting value wise, we praise them for making a pretty typical pick. They get bumped from a B to an A just because they didn't screw it up. That doesn't mean they had a great draft, it means people can't disconnect memories from prior drafts.

I thought New England really took a lot of shots early with Spikes and Cunningham in the Second, but I do like the Gronkowski pick if he can manage to stay healthy & Devin McCourty was a smart pick even if he never exactly lives up to a First Round pick... you simply cannot have too many good corners.

I literally could not have said that first paragraph any better. But then you had to ruin it lol. I think Spikes' weakness can get masked for what he's asked to do for the Pats. Cunningham is an unknown at the minute, especially when you consider he'll be across from Shawn Crable.

yourfavestoner
07-26-2010, 04:18 PM
New Orleans had a vastly underrated draft. I'm not crazy about all the players they got, but they got fantastic value for each pick. For as much as people hated the P-Rob pick, they'll have time to develop him. It doesn't look so dumb now, either, with Malcolm Jenkins likely to get decent playing time at FS, because I'd be really surprised if Sharper's knee made it through another season.

Also, Matt Tennant=teh sex.

I would also write a long entry about how Jacksonville's draft will pan out better than most people think, but I can't do it without coming off like a raging homer.

Rosebud
07-26-2010, 07:37 PM
Buffalo??? Really? I would come close to saying they had the worst draft of any team. They had huge needs at QB, OT, pass rusher. When where they addressed? Ed Wang in the 5th? Levi Brown in the 7th? They got a luxury pick in Spiller which they couldnt afford to take, then filled it out with some solid guys later on.

The Bills had needs at QB, LT, NT, pass rush, DE, LB, WR and playmaker. There was only so much they could do and they didn't get a shot at Bradford, the only top QB prospect in this draft. Passing on Clausen isn't a bad move for this team, passing onf Davis is questionable as LT is a big concern, but with their concerns about his work ethic and the memory of Jason Peters being fresh on their minds Buffalo was justified in passing on Davis. Spiller addresses a need for offensive explosiveness while the next two picks are crucial to their 3-4 conversion while the later round LB conversion picks will help the depth of that unit. Overall that 3-4 has a lot of good young pieces provided they find one more pass rusher and offensively they've got a nice set up for a young QB and LT to come into.

New Orleans had a vastly underrated draft. I'm not crazy about all the players they got, but they got fantastic value for each pick. For as much as people hated the P-Rob pick, they'll have time to develop him. It doesn't look so dumb now, either, with Malcolm Jenkins likely to get decent playing time at FS, because I'd be really surprised if Sharper's knee made it through another season.

Also, Matt Tennant=teh sex.

I would also write a long entry about how Jacksonville's draft will pan out better than most people think, but I can't do it without coming off like a raging homer.

Matt Tennant is teh sex even though I think P-rob and Brown will be busts. As for the Jacksonville draft go on, you would've sounded like a major homer last year as well even though the Jags had a strong draft. This year they've kept adding young talent.

SenorGato
07-27-2010, 01:01 AM
+1 on the Saints draft...pretty sure I've called that my favorite draft somewhere...Matt Tennant truly is teh sex.

Others:

Panthers...Greg Hardy was almost as big a steal as Jimmy Clausen....the Pats got some kickass TEs and there's some really nice players like Deaderick, Spikes, Mesko, and Cunningham there....

Mr.Regular
07-27-2010, 01:23 AM
I love the Saints draft mainly because I think they got the best pass protector in the whole draft late in round 2. What a steal. Charles Brown was the most underrated player in the whole draft.
I wasnt a fan of Robinson, but you can never have enough corners in this league, and Malcolm Jenkins may be moving over to safety.

AntoinCD
07-27-2010, 03:05 AM
The Bills had needs at QB, LT, NT, pass rush, DE, LB, WR and playmaker. There was only so much they could do and they didn't get a shot at Bradford, the only top QB prospect in this draft. Passing on Clausen isn't a bad move for this team, passing onf Davis is questionable as LT is a big concern, but with their concerns about his work ethic and the memory of Jason Peters being fresh on their minds Buffalo was justified in passing on Davis. Spiller addresses a need for offensive explosiveness while the next two picks are crucial to their 3-4 conversion while the later round LB conversion picks will help the depth of that unit. Overall that 3-4 has a lot of good young pieces provided they find one more pass rusher and offensively they've got a nice set up for a young QB and LT to come into.


I can't argue that going forward their defense could be pretty good but I strongly disagree about having a nice set up offensively going forward. Hypothetically if they take one of the top QBs next year, by the time he is passed the early stages of his career and potentially becomes good Lee Evans will be about 32. The only WR who is better than average will only have a few years left at the most.

I just don't like the whole we'll wait until next year approach. They had a chance to get offensive line help in a year where the OT class was much stronger than what it will be next year. Also potentially the 5 technique class is extremely impressive at this point. So that makes no sense to me.

As I stated, I don't mind them passing on Clausen. But it was nonsensical to leave OT until Ed Wang in the 5th. I also disagree that Spiller addressed a need. Nice player and all but he will be similar to Reggie Bush in the pros. That is a luxury

AntoinCD
07-27-2010, 05:19 AM
If you're going to post crap at least use the space bar after full stops and use proper grammar. You writed that piece very bad

K Train
07-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Lol I may have exaggerated slightly there. I didnt know how to feel at the time he was selected because I liked him as a prospect but thought the Patriots were ok at CB. But from seeing more of him and reading about him I think i'm in love. All I need now is for him and Rob Gronkowski to have a baby and I'm set. I can see it now.

Robyn McGronky; 6'6, 265 lbs, 4.38 40 who plays a bit of TE and CB

yeah the pats are pretty set at CB in the future with butler and mcourty, thats a pretty studly duo

K Train
07-27-2010, 08:51 AM
i actually really do like the saints draft...robinson is a CB that has legit #1 CB potential, more so than joe haden imo (not a knock on haden, i just have high praise for robinsons skills) he might be best off not being more than a 4th or 5th CB this season but with some fine tuning of his game i think he could be great.

charles brown is the best pass blocker this year and went to a pass happy offense...one that jsut traded away jamaal brown, it makes sense to groom his ass for a year or 2 to play on the left side, maybe get him to bulk up a little.

jimmy graham, another more "project" again is a big body to play the reciever TE role in a high powered offense, he should get alot of opportunities with all the fire power they have and brees ability to spread it out.

al woods was just one of time top 5 favorite players this year, not sure how i feel about him in a 43 since i was infatuated with him as a NT with the athleticism to play DE in a 34.

and tennant was good value in the 5th since he was probably the 2nd/3rd center this year

like someone said above, they might not have any rookie starters this year but all their draft picks have pretty high ceilings imo

yourfavestoner
07-27-2010, 10:30 AM
i actually really do like the saints draft...robinson is a CB that has legit #1 CB potential, more so than joe haden imo (not a knock on haden, i just have high praise for robinsons skills) he might be best off not being more than a 4th or 5th CB this season but with some fine tuning of his game i think he could be great.

charles brown is the best pass blocker this year and went to a pass happy offense...one that jsut traded away jamaal brown, it makes sense to groom his ass for a year or 2 to play on the left side, maybe get him to bulk up a little.

jimmy graham, another more "project" again is a big body to play the reciever TE role in a high powered offense, he should get alot of opportunities with all the fire power they have and brees ability to spread it out.

al woods was just one of time top 5 favorite players this year, not sure how i feel about him in a 43 since i was infatuated with him as a NT with the athleticism to play DE in a 43.

and tennant was good value in the 5th since he was probably the 2nd/3rd center this year

like someone said above, they might not have any rookie starters this year but all their draft picks have pretty high ceilings imo

That's the key to the draft. Long term potential>>>>>>>>rookie impact, especially when you're picking at the bottom of the draft.

AntoinCD
07-27-2010, 10:42 AM
That's the key to the draft. Long term potential>>>>>>>>rookie impact, especially when you're picking at the bottom of the draft.

That's a big thing that always gets overlooked at this early stage. It's why grading a draft after three years is so much more reliable than straight after. Good teams arent going to need 5 starters from their rookie class. However they aren't just picking guys to take up roster spots, they are expecting a future gain from them players.

Plus as you mentioned where you're picking in the draft also helps. Teams picking in the top 5 automatically will have a good start to their draft at this point, as seldom is there ever a huge reach and the talent levels are higher. For example, Detroit could have picked almost anyone after Suh but people would say they got at least one elite difference maker, despite him never playing a snap.

Rosebud
07-27-2010, 10:51 AM
I can't argue that going forward their defense could be pretty good but I strongly disagree about having a nice set up offensively going forward. Hypothetically if they take one of the top QBs next year, by the time he is passed the early stages of his career and potentially becomes good Lee Evans will be about 32. The only WR who is better than average will only have a few years left at the most.

I just don't like the whole we'll wait until next year approach. They had a chance to get offensive line help in a year where the OT class was much stronger than what it will be next year. Also potentially the 5 technique class is extremely impressive at this point. So that makes no sense to me.

As I stated, I don't mind them passing on Clausen. But it was nonsensical to leave OT until Ed Wang in the 5th. I also disagree that Spiller addressed a need. Nice player and all but he will be similar to Reggie Bush in the pros. That is a luxury

Any rookie they get next year will have a fairly easy transition if they can find a LT, they have a strong interior OL, a strong running game and with Evans, Nelson, Schouman, Hardy/Easley, Spiller and Fast Freddy a number of solid receivers. That young QB won't be coming into a talentless offense where he has to learn while overcoming ****** team-mates. The fact that Evans won't be around for long isn't that big of an issue as Evans will still be in his prime as the youngin is adjusting to the league which is most important because finding receivers for a franchise QB is much easier than finding a franchise QB.

As for OT who were they supposed to take? Anthony Davis to me is the only pick that would've made sense but having lived in Buffalo I completely understand how his character could've scared them off. Only other OT that made more sense than their picks would've been Ash if they could've traded up ahead of the Raiders in round 4.

It's too soon to say Spiller's Reggie Bush and not CJ, because if he's an elite playmaker like CJ him and Evans will be huge weapons for any young QB.

To me though this draft was huge for their front 7 on D and I think that it'll pay off big time in their transition to a 3-4. Again making life easier on whoever they get to be their franchise QB.

AntoinCD
07-27-2010, 10:56 AM
True it is too early I was just making relative comparisons. He could also be a complete bust.

I just thought there were enough high rated players at positions of need they could have and should have taken.

Rosebud
07-27-2010, 11:28 AM
True it is too early I was just making relative comparisons. He could also be a complete bust.

I just thought there were enough high rated players at positions of need they could have and should have taken.

I probably would've taken Davis had I been in their shoes, but if he was off of their board for his motivation concerns there really wasn't that much for them to do other than taking Spiller.

AntoinCD
07-27-2010, 03:29 PM
I probably would've taken Davis had I been in their shoes, but if he was off of their board for his motivation concerns there really wasn't that much for them to do other than taking Spiller.

Yeah I don't mind passing on aguy if he's just not on the board at all due to character/health/scheme concerns etc. I just thought they would have valued some of the pass rushers more highly or could have made an effort for Okung once he got passed Washington

bce
07-27-2010, 07:39 PM
Loved philly, pittsburgh, baltimore, until kindle broke his skull, but still like, like indy, like new england.

Awful detroit, tampa, F- awful. high picks on players of low position values, major injuries, character issues, just bad bad bad.

Rosebud
07-27-2010, 08:41 PM
Yeah I don't mind passing on aguy if he's just not on the board at all due to character/health/scheme concerns etc. I just thought they would have valued some of the pass rushers more highly or could have made an effort for Okung once he got passed Washington

Which pass rusher though? This was the year of the 4-3 end high in the draft as Morgan is exclusively a 4-3 player, JPP profiles best to a 4-3 and even Graham is more deadly with his paw in the dirt. I want to see what happens with Maybin first, if Maybin turns into a monster like he very well could in that scheme given how much they improved their DL, they might not need a high round pick opposite him and a high motor guy like Batten could do fine as the SOLB.

onejayhawk
07-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Loved philly, pittsburgh, baltimore, until kindle broke his skull, but still like, like indy, like new england.

Awful detroit, tampa, F- awful. high picks on players of low position values, major injuries, character issues, just bad bad bad.

Wow. Opposite side of the fence here.

I liked Tampa's draft. The first pick was a no brainer, and they got it right. Price was sliding, but let's not go overboard. At that point it was a decent value that fits a need. The two WRs are another need. Benn is not a favorite of mine, but I dont see him flopping. Williams was a terrific value. Ditto Myron Lewis. Dont overlook the 7th round. Two ST aces, and an excellent gamble on Long. Not great, but a solid draft.

Detroit was better than solid. Suh is the other no brainer, but Best was also very good, and the trade to get him was excellent. Two rookie impact players will make any draft worthwhile. Spievey was a solid pick, and Fox looks like a future starter at RT or OG. Not bad at all.

On the flip, Philadelphia did very little with a massive haul of picks. Graham has a great motor, and should be effective, but he was no bargain at the spot. Allen was a reach, as were several others. Harbor is a solid TE and Kafka could be a good backup, but there are few future starters here. B for total talent, but C- for use of resources.

J

bce
07-31-2010, 12:42 PM
The first pick was the biggest mistake they made. I didnt have a problem with price where they picked him. This is a team carting out styles g white as their #1 pass rusher and they passed on good pass rush prospects to pick an interior dfensive lineman whos not all that physically gifted.

benn was injury prone and underproductive and not all that physically gifted compared to the nfl level. he has the lookings of an average at best nfl player.

The guy from syracuse, i mean youre talking about a guy who quit the team. If you cant handle the college game so much as you have to quit how are you going to handle the nfl game?

Dtetroit was awful. Ndumkong suh was a no brainer because the media made him a no brainer. One of the oldest players in the draft, history of major knee injury, position of low value when that team desperately needs impact players at positions of higher value (lt, pass rush) and they had their pick of the litter. On top of that did you see sam bradfords deal? Thats what youre going to have to pay ndumkong suh. QB money for a defensive tackle. It wa s one of the worst draft choices ever. Then they come back and pick jahvid best, who i like, but the guy has already had a bevy of serious injuries, especially the most dreaded injury in todays nfl, a serious concussion, for a guy playing rb in the nfl. How long do you think hes going to last? What hapopened in the later rounds is immaterial really. they screwed the pooch with their top 2 picks.

Graham was the #1 pass rusher in the draft, and therefore as i see it, the #1 player in the draft. The film is hors categorie and they got him for about 1/3 of what ndumkong suh will be paid, at a position of highest value. Graham is bargain city. Ndumkong suh is a rip off.

bce
07-31-2010, 04:18 PM
Gerald mccoy and ndumkong suh. Same paycheck as #7.

Still think it was a good draft pick?

wonderbredd24
07-31-2010, 04:22 PM
Gerald mccoy and ndumkong suh. Same paycheck as #7.

Still think it was a good draft pick?

If there was a salary cap, neither team is anywhere near it so how much Ndamukong Suh or Gerald McCoy is utterly meaningless. Anyone affected by this? No? Ok then.

bce
07-31-2010, 04:37 PM
Whether theres a cap is meaningless. Theres going to be a cap, and these guys are a huge hit against. It is real money were playing with here. Its not monopoly money. Its paying the same money to ndumkong suh on a per year basis as you are to #7, for a player that will never ever ever ever have that kind of value. Its a lose lose situation, no matter how good they become, they will never be worth the money. They will always be a rip off, they can never earn this paycheck ever no matter how good they are.

Its not just about cap hits and picking the supposed "best player". People have value in every job. They dont have the value, and can never have the value of what theyre being paid i dont care if they are all pro every year. Theyre still not going to have #7 value, not even close.

Theres way more to it, thats why the herd never gets it. Its all about whos the most hyped, but the factors involved, the value of the position of the player escapes the herd. The idea that ndumkong suh will make as much money as a qb who signed a contract after winning 2 super bowls its not the fault of no rookie cap. Its the teams fault for succumbing to media pressure and hype and making a bad decision for success on the football field.

bce
07-31-2010, 04:49 PM
At least sam bradford has a chance to make his money. These guys may be the two biggest frauds ever perpetrated on the nfl game.

bce
07-31-2010, 04:57 PM
I m taking back may be the biggest frauds. Gerald mccoy and ndumkong ARE the biggest frauds ever perpetrated on the nfl game.

wonderbredd24
07-31-2010, 05:01 PM
Whether theres a cap is meaningless. Theres going to be a cap, and these guys are a huge hit against. It is real money were playing with here. Its not monopoly money. Its paying the same money to ndumkong suh on a per year basis as you are to #7, for a player that will never ever ever ever have that kind of value. Its a lose lose situation, no matter how good they become, they will never be worth the money. They will always be a rip off, they can never earn this paycheck ever no matter how good they are.

Its not just about cap hits and picking the supposed "best player". People have value in every job. They dont have the value, and can never have the value of what theyre being paid i dont care if they are all pro every year. Theyre still not going to have #7 value, not even close.

Theres way more to it, thats why the herd never gets it. Its all about whos the most hyped, but the factors involved, the value of the position of the player escapes the herd. The idea that ndumkong suh will make as much money as a qb who signed a contract after winning 2 super bowls its not the fault of no rookie cap. Its the teams fault for succumbing to media pressure and hype and making a bad decision for success on the football field.
And as I already addressed, neither of these teams are anywhere near the cap. Nowhere close. And as far as you and I are concerned, it might as well be monopoly money, because this type of **** is utterly meaningless.

bce
07-31-2010, 05:04 PM
It matters because they are not worth whatever monopoly money they are being paid. If sam bradford pans out, hes worth 12 mil per year. Ndumkong suh will never be worth 12 mil per year. Never ever ever ever.

Hes a fraud, a sham, a rip off and the world fell hook line and sinker for this stinker.

wonderbredd24
07-31-2010, 05:17 PM
It matters because they are not worth whatever monopoly money they are being paid. If sam bradford pans out, hes worth 12 mil per year. Ndumkong suh will never be worth 12 mil per year. Never ever ever ever.

Hes a fraud, a sham, a rip off and the world fell hook line and sinker for this stinker.
No one is worth what they are being paid in the NFL. It's a game.

I still don't understand why you care. For all intensive purposes, the NFL is monopoly money.

Brent
07-31-2010, 05:33 PM
I would also write a long entry about how Jacksonville's draft will pan out better than most people think, but I can't do it without coming off like a raging homer.
**** it, I'll say it: I liked your team's draft. If they had Alualu as a top 10 guy, **** it, they stuck to their board and took him. We have no idea how other teams rated the guy, so good for the Jags. They have, potentially, a future line taken in one draft. I wonder how many of those rookies start on the D line. John Henderson and Montavious Stanley are gone, so they had to get someone. Besides, it's kind of hard to have a good draft when you have 6 picks.

onejayhawk
07-31-2010, 09:38 PM
Gerald mccoy and ndumkong suh. Same paycheck as #7.

Still think it was a good draft pick?

Yes and Yes. Both were excellent selections. Given that St louis felt compelled to take a QB, the first iffy selection was Haden at #7. You can say that Okung is better than Williams, or that Berry is a low impact position, but #2 and #3 should have gone in those spots, though in either order. Ditto #4, #5, #6.

After making a reach for a need, the Browns then over paid him. If he is the second coming of Champ Bailey, he might be worth it. Regardless, both Dtroit and TB made the right first pick. The same would be true if they swapped selections, but anyone else, except, maybe, Berry, would be a reach.

J

bce
08-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Yes and Yes. Both were excellent selections. Given that St louis felt compelled to take a QB, the first iffy selection was Haden at #7. You can say that Okung is better than Williams, or that Berry is a low impact position, but #2 and #3 should have gone in those spots, though in either order. Ditto #4, #5, #6.

After making a reach for a need, the Browns then over paid him. If he is the second coming of Champ Bailey, he might be worth it. Regardless, both Dtroit and TB made the right first pick. The same would be true if they swapped selections, but anyone else, except, maybe, Berry, would be a reach.

J

No and no they were horrible picks. Will never be worth the paycheck, ben roethlisberger money for ndumkong suh and gerald mccoy. How can you say those are good picks? unless youre simply saying that they were business decisions not picked for any type of contribution to on field success. That they were picked to cater to the media and create fan buzz and excitement because everyone knows who ndumkong suh is and it may sell a few more jerseys and put a few more fannies in the seats. Its the only justification for drafting ndumkong suh second overall and paying him ben reothlisberger money. Because on the field, he could never earn it. He could never be worth what ben roethlisberger is worth.

Good luck with joe haden being the next champ bailey. Youre missing about .3 speed in the 40 to begin with, so the level of athlete is nowhere near the same, and even if he is, which hes not in any way shape or form, physically or otherwise, what team success has champ bailey ever contributed to? One afc championship game in 10 years of being one of the best?

Berry was overdrafted as well. I like berry and i think he will be a good player, but safety is not a position of highest value and its a position of injury proneness and short career spans. Troy polumalu makes 7.5 mil per year, for a much better athlete and proven nfl superstar at the position, and like all safeties, hes injury prone, because its a position where players get injured. For a team totally devoid of pass rushers, to pick a safety and pay him upwards of 10 mil per year when troy polumalu makes 7.5 mil per year, its asinine, its ludicrous. Again the only justification is its a business decision designed to sell shirts and put a few more fannies in the seats and create buzz around an organization that is struggling. These draft picks are short term business decisions plain and simple. Winners dont make short term business decisions. They make money off winning. they sell tickets because they win, they create excitement because they win, they sell jerseys because they win. These draft picks are short term compensation for not being able to make money off winning. Its the only thing that makes any sense at all about them. Thats why 50% of the top 10 do not meet excpectations, because they are short term bsuiness decisions not long term investments in winning.

onejayhawk
08-02-2010, 08:09 AM
If you read my entry, you would find that Cleveland is paying Haden to be Champ Bailey, not that I expect Haden to earn the money. Regardless, Suh and McCoy are by concensus fine picks. You can argue with the concensus if you wish, but you need to bring a lot more facts to the table than I have seen so far.

Berry was taken almost by default. The only other players worth considering were LT prospects, and the Chiefs drafted their LT just two years ago. Also there was a real need at safety. He will be all over the backfield, SS, FS, blitzing, eighth man in the box, even some CB. In this case, I really do expect him to be the guy he is compared to, Ed Reed, and possibly more.

J

bce
08-02-2010, 05:28 PM
Consensus doesnt matter. They'll never be worth it. They never have any chance to earn that paycheck on the field. Their on field performance will never be worth what they are paid. It doesnt even matter if hes ed reed or troy polumalu, and quite frankly, i wouldnt bank on it happening. Comparisons to the best of the best often find the compared disappointing.

CLong4Heisman
08-03-2010, 09:23 AM
Then who should they have picked? I'm really dying to know

onejayhawk
08-03-2010, 04:29 PM
Consensus doesnt matter. They'll never be worth it. They never have any chance to earn that paycheck on the field. Their on field performance will never be worth what they are paid. It doesnt even matter if hes ed reed or troy polumalu, and quite frankly, i wouldnt bank on it happening. Comparisons to the best of the best often find the compared disappointing.

If you want to dispute the concensus, bring your facts and arguments. Right now it is just an opinion, and I have my own.

J

bce
08-03-2010, 05:55 PM
If you want to dispute the concensus, bring your facts and arguments. Right now it is just an opinion, and I have my own.

J


I live to dipute the consensus and my arguments have already been posted.

What i would have done, picked the best available pass rusher. If you do your homework and they pan out theyll be worth the 12 mil per year. Thats about what the top pass rushers are commanding these days. There were a lot available and you had your pick of the litter, There were double digit sack guys in this draft available and they passed to pick two mid level physical talent dts.

prock
08-03-2010, 06:14 PM
I live to dipute the consensus and my arguments have already been posted.

What i would have done, picked the best available pass rusher. If you do your homework and they pan out theyll be worth the 12 mil per year. Thats about what the top pass rushers are commanding these days. There were a lot available and you had your pick of the litter, There were double digit sack guys in this draft available and they passed to pick two mid level physical talent dts.

Mid level physical talent DTs? How do you figure?

bce
08-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Certainly not as physically gifted as say ziggy hood. Suh a little closer. mccoy, just not much of an athlete. 23 reps 5+ 40. Neither are the freak that ziggy hood is, let alone an albert haynesworth.

OaklandRaider56
08-03-2010, 08:58 PM
Certainly not as physically gifted as say ziggy hood. Suh a little closer. mccoy, just not much of an athlete. 23 reps 5+ 40. Neither are the freak that ziggy hood is, let alone an albert haynesworth.

Haynesworth only did 17 reps if I'm not mistaken. You have to actually watch football, Ziggy Hood doesn't have nearly the fluidity of Suh or McCoy.

prock
08-03-2010, 09:26 PM
Certainly not as physically gifted as say ziggy hood. Suh a little closer. mccoy, just not much of an athlete. 23 reps 5+ 40. Neither are the freak that ziggy hood is, let alone an albert haynesworth.

Why does a 40 time matter for a DT? You just need to watch "what's between the white lines".

CLong4Heisman
08-04-2010, 08:13 AM
Certainly not as physically gifted as say ziggy hood. Suh a little closer. mccoy, just not much of an athlete. 23 reps 5+ 40. Neither are the freak that ziggy hood is, let alone an albert haynesworth.

What pass rusher would you have picked instead of suh and McCoy?

K Train
08-04-2010, 08:30 AM
evander hood isnt exactly a physical freak...not sure what you are looking at

bce
08-04-2010, 07:45 PM
see thats where your wrong, if you look at ziggys combine performance, hes much more of a freak than gerald mccoy or ndumkong suh. That 4.88 40 and 30+ bench reps with 34 inch arms.

Know your steelers even if you dont know much else.

prock
08-04-2010, 11:11 PM
see thats where your wrong, if you look at ziggys combine performance, hes much more of a freak than gerald mccoy or ndumkong suh. That 4.88 40 and 30+ bench reps with 34 inch arms.

Know your steelers even if you dont know much else.

Since when does a 40 time matter for a DT? And Suh ran a 4.98, had a 35.5 inch vertical, and did 32 bench reps. His arms are a half inch shorter than Hoods, and he weighs about 10 pounds more than Hood. So with comparable numbers, I don't understand how you call Hood a freak and Suh a "mid level talent".

onejayhawk
08-05-2010, 07:53 AM
Since when does a 40 time matter for a DT? And Suh ran a 4.98, had a 35.5 inch vertical, and did 32 bench reps. His arms are a half inch shorter than Hoods, and he weighs about 10 pounds more than Hood. So with comparable numbers, I don't understand how you call Hood and freak and Suh a "mid level talent".
pwned

I live to dipute the consensus and my arguments have already been posted.

What i would have done, picked the best available pass rusher. If you do your homework and they pan out theyll be worth the 12 mil per year. Thats about what the top pass rushers are commanding these days. There were a lot available and you had your pick of the litter, There were double digit sack guys in this draft available and they passed to pick two mid level physical talent dts.

Regardless of the other considerations raised, McCoy and Suh were the best pass rushers available, by a wide margin. History has shown that pass rushing DEs go very high, and the first was Graham at #13.

J

K Train
08-05-2010, 08:18 AM
see thats where your wrong, if you look at ziggys combine performance, hes much more of a freak than gerald mccoy or ndumkong suh. That 4.88 40 and 30+ bench reps with 34 inch arms.

Know your steelers even if you dont know much else.
being a weight room w hore like evander was during his time at mizzou doesnt make him a freak, it makes him a hard worker. he gained like 40-50 pounds during his tenure at mizzou, hes always had undeniable work ethic but that doesnt make him a "freak"
Since when does a 40 time matter for a DT? And Suh ran a 4.98, had a 35.5 inch vertical, and did 32 bench reps. His arms are a half inch shorter than Hoods, and he weighs about 10 pounds more than Hood. So with comparable numbers, I don't understand how you call Hood and freak and Suh a "mid level talent".
this. suh was the best DT in like 5 years imo, evander was....not. hood was a good talent but theres a reason he was a second round projection and suh was a 1st overall possibility

bce
08-07-2010, 03:57 PM
pwned



Regardless of the other considerations raised, McCoy and Suh were the best pass rushers available, by a wide margin. History has shown that pass rushing DEs go very high, and the first was Graham at #13.

J


Right interior defensive lineman were the best pass rushers available.

I'll take ziggy, the more physically gifted, and much lower paid and you can have suh and mccoy, the less physically gifted and the grossly overpaid.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:08 PM
Since when does a 40 time matter for a DT? And Suh ran a 4.98, had a 35.5 inch vertical, and did 32 bench reps. His arms are a half inch shorter than Hoods, and he weighs about 10 pounds more than Hood. So with comparable numbers, I don't understand how you call Hood a freak and Suh a "mid level talent".

Right interior defensive lineman were the best pass rushers available.

I'll take ziggy, the more physically gifted, and much lower paid and you can have suh and mccoy, the less physically gifted and the grossly overpaid.

Wanna respond to this? Or you wanna keep saying the same stupid **** over and over even after proven wrong?

bce
08-07-2010, 04:30 PM
I did respond to it. ndumkong suh was no more gifted physically than ziggy hood,probably less physically gifted, and gerald mccoy is far less gifted, both for about 5 times the money of ziggy hood.

And just a guess, ziggy's going to be better than both.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:33 PM
I did respond to it. ndumkong suh was no more gifted physically than ziggy hood,probably less physically gifted, and gerald mccoy is far less gifted, both for about 5 times the money of ziggy hood.

And just a guess, ziggy's going to be better than both.

OK, so physical gifts are the only determinant of good players? You are a moron. You obviously have never watched the three of them play.

bce
08-07-2010, 04:44 PM
It is an athletes game. Ive seen them all play ad nauseum, including ziggy, in an nfl game, im going to foster a guess that ziggy is the best.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:46 PM
It is an athletes game. Ive seen them all play ad nauseum, including ziggy, in an nfl game, im going to foster a guess that ziggy is the best.

Since you think Brandon Graham should have gone #1 overall, your hypocrisy is noted.

bce
08-07-2010, 04:50 PM
i dont know how that is hypocrisy. brandon graham is an edge pass rusher.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:56 PM
i dont know how that is hypocrisy. brandon graham is an edge pass rusher.

Brandon Graham is definitely not the most physically gifted player out there. JPP is more physically gifted, so according to your logic, he will be the better player. You think Ziggy Hood is more gifted than Suh, even though the numbers say he isn't, so he will be better. How come it applies to interior lineman and not edge rushers?

bce
08-07-2010, 05:08 PM
what youre leaving out about my logic is what happens in the games. graham was better in the games, a better pass rusher than pierre paul, and really when you sum it all up, pierre pauls not that much more gifted. .5 faster, but not as strong or as stout, and most importantly, not better on tape.

The numbers do say ziggy is at least just as gifted as suh. Thats why suh was a mistake. And i disagree that "3rd party suh's" college tape was better. Mr 3rd party ndumkong suh.

prock
08-07-2010, 05:18 PM
what youre leaving out about my logic is what happens in the games. graham was better in the games, a better pass rusher than pierre paul, and really when you sum it all up, pierre pauls not that much more gifted. .5 faster, but not as strong or as stout, and most importantly, not better on tape.

The numbers do say ziggy is at least just as gifted as suh. Thats why suh was a mistake. And i disagree that "3rd party suh's" college tape was better. Mr 3rd party ndumkong suh.

You obviously have no clue how to even comprehend good football if you think Suh wasn't dominant in college.

Brandon Graham has short tiny arms. He isn't the fastest, strongest, but he works hard all the time and has good tape. Suh has elite measurables on paper and the best film of any player in the draft. But Brandon Graham would have been better, huh? Ziggy Hood has wayyy worse tape, which you just said was most important. So Suh has equal measurables and better tape, but is a worse player? Your logic fails.

bce
08-07-2010, 05:31 PM
Graham has the gift and hes plenty athletic. Hes not the most athletic, triangle numbers show a requisite athleticism level and nothing more. As long as those triangle numbers show the requisite levl of athleticism for the nfl level, thats all that really matters with regards to them. You always want to be bigger faster stronger, and its always an advantage, but having the gift is most important.

ndumkong suhs tape is a trasheap of 3rd party plays. sacks and tfl when hes the 3rd guy in almost every single game i watched of theirs, qb running around for 5 seconds before he gets there, just all kinds of things that are not going to happen in the nfl. I only evaluate on first party plays and how many they make.

prock
08-07-2010, 05:34 PM
You obviously haven't watched Suh play. And you also need to take into consideration he is being double and triple teamed often. I urge you to watch the game against Texas and tell me that he was not unstoppable.

bce
08-07-2010, 05:52 PM
I know excuses excuses. I watched him play a lot, and he made 3rd party plays, almost every play was a 3rd party play, including the game vs texas. All those 41/2 sacks, he beat his guy one time that i saw to make a play. Every other time, 3rd party plays.

bce
08-07-2010, 05:57 PM
ndumakong aint runnin no 4.69 40

-warren sapp