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BlindSite
07-28-2010, 03:34 AM
Kansas City
Every year there comes a team that had no success the previous year that surprises almost everyone except their loyal fans. That team this year will be Kansas City. Though they had one of the earliest picks in the draft - a combination of maturation of talent on the offensive line, the backfield and the addition of some defensive help, the Chiefs will find a perfect storm of finding form, weakest projected schedule in the NFL and a lack of division competition. They won't knock off San Diego but they should be right in the mix for a wild card berth.

The defensive backfield is developing quickly, the offensive line found some form late in the year and Matt Cassel should be able to build on his performance last year with some adequate help from the running game.

The schedule is what makes this year theirs. The benefit of playing the 22nd strongest schedule in the NFL should aide their campaign greatly.

Cowboys shouldn't be anointed just yet
The Cowboys seem to be the paper champs of the NFC East the addition of Dez Bryant, the health of three solid young running backs and the perceived weaknesses of their divisional rivals put together a coherent argument.

Consider for a moment. When has Wade Philips had his team live up to their billing? When have the running backs remained healthy for 16 games? When has Romo taken that step he's been predicted to take every year (though I will say he is a solid Quarterback). This brings me to my next point.

The offensive line is old, it's injury prone and it's struggled to keep everyone upright and where they should be last year. Flozell Adams gave up 34 pressures and allowed Romo to be sacked 8 times and hit a further 7 and it's not exactly accurate to say Doug Free is a huge upgrade with his limited action in the LT spot. I'm not saying Free will fail, but there's not a lot of evidence to suggest he'll be the team's saviour. The right tackle spot was swapped and changed depending on health and the week, the interior didn't fare much better.

The Cowboys likely have some of the pieces to overcome these issues, Romo can run and throw, the wide receivers match up favourably with any team in the NFL as do the running backs and receiving ends, but with such a difficult schedule and such a difficult division it's hard to see the team gaining such lofty status as some expect.

The coaching staff must find a consistent game plan a problem for years in Dallas if they're to find an offensive rhythm.

They may win their division with that pass rush and offense, anything is possible, but facing the Vikings or Green bay or New Orleans in the playoffs is going to be a huge challenge.


Homer Prediction
Carolina sit with one of the easiest schedules in the NFL with one of the best running games, offensive lines and running back tandems in the NFL. It's not a stretch to suggest they've got possible wins against:
Tampa x2
Atlanta x1
Cincinnati
Chicago
san Francisco
st louis
Cleveland
Arizona
Seattle

Even if you call a split between the 4 toughest games in that sample, it's an 8-8 season.

As a purely statistic projection if Moore had his stats last season projected over the course of an entire 16 games he'd do something that hasn't been done since 2001: 272 of 441 (61%) for 3369 25 TD for 6 INTs. He might not reach the heights, but he's shown some significant flashes in 8 games and enters his 3rd year in the offense. It's a recipe for at least passable success.

I'm not saying the Panthers will make the playoffs or that Matt Moore is going to be an All-Pro but I wouldn't count this team out as dead just yet.

Homer Continued
Fox is almost certainly gone, so-called inside sources (could be a mail boy for all we know), has said 100% he's gone regardless of performance. Jeff Davidson is the likely choice to take over, he comes from the Belichick tree, has shown excellent ability coaching the offense the past few years and seems to have the “players’ coach type attitude”.


The Texans
Houston seems to perennially be on the cusp.

Schaub, Johnson, Super Mario, Cushing; the list of their elite talent shows they've drafted increasingly well and seemingly should be able to match up with the immense talent they face each year. Funnily enough it never seems to be enough and they're consistently considered to be the next dark horse contender.

The lines still need some work on both sides of the ball and their projected schedule predicts some rocky times ahead, a lack of clear leadership from the HC position also seems to be a consistent detriment to the team. This may be a make or break year for Kubiak and it'll be interesting to see where a new coach and another year's FA and draft could see the team in 2011. They'll come close, but it's not their year.

Players with the potential for massive years

Michael Turner faded away a little bit last year, but not through lack of production, though he dipped under 1,000 yards he managed 10 touchdowns and 4.9ypc and only fizzled due to an injury cutting short his season.

Playing in the NFC:S means he's going to run into 6 games with less than stellar run defenses. It's not a stretch to expect he at least equals his 2008 totals, which given Atlantas schedule he should steam roll. He's my outside pick for the rushing title this year.

Vincent Jackson won't be missed as a burner or as a red zone target so much as he'll be missed, should he hold out, as the chain mover. Antonio Gates gets a lot of props for his ability to convert for first down, but VJax had over 80% of his catches in 09 go for first down, which is insanely consistent chain moving prowess.

Enter Legedy Naanee, and Malcom Floyd though neither of these guys are house hold names both have shown solid hands and the ability to get open down field. The release of Chambers at the very least allowed Floyd more attention in the pass happy offense and although he's not as good as Jackson in any particular area he's got a 6-5 frame and deceptive deep speed which should be conducive to high production in the Chargers offense should Jackson miss significant time.

AFC East is anyone's guess

The Jets are the consensus pick after a strong year in 09 and debate abounds on Matt Sanchez' future (more on that to follow). The only thing we know is that there's questions on the Jets offense, Miami's defense and all around various aspects of New England.

The only thing we know is that all three will be competitive, when it comes down a crapshoot I'd err on the side of caution and bet on the team with the best quarterback and coaching staff. My pick is New England by one game with the Jets earning a Wildcard berth.

Sanchez's first year has been compared to everyone from Elway to Manning to Russell, and it's safe to say that rookie QBs flat out stink. They're not ready, they're not up to speed, don't know the offense well enough and don't recognise defensive patterns to be truly effective. Give Sanchez two years before he's anointed or condemned.

Coaches fired / Not Re-hired at the end of the season:
Chan Gailey
Lovie Smith
John Fox
Jack Del Rio
Wade Philips

Next HC to be promoted from the ranks:
Brian Schottenheimer

On The Clock:
Buffalo, 0-6 in their division almost without a shadow of a doubt. The team is still relatively inept in a lot of areas and a most of their talent is beginning to waste away in a sea of inadequacy in the supporting cast.

Chan Gailey is gone at the end of the year in my mind, hopefully they find someone to be their saviour, though with all the attraction of playing or coaching in Buffalo, I won't hold my breath.

The Detroit Lions remind me of the Texans a few years ago, bottom of their division behind a couple of solid units. A glimmer of hope at quarterback, receiver and growing talent in the trenches. They're not great, but they've got some pieces beginning to fall into place. I think they'll finish third above the Bears who're fielding an incredibly weak offensive line, yet another new offense and big questions in the secondary.

Final standings playoffs:

NFC S: New Orleans (hard to pick against them)
NFC E: Dallas (Hard to pick against them in their division in spite of their issues.
NFC W: 49ers
NFC N: Minnesota

Wildcard: Atlanta / Carolina
Green bay

NFC S rep in the championship game: Green bay

AFC W: San Diego
AFC S: Colts
AFC N: Ravens
AFC E: New England

Wildcard:
Kansas City, NYJ

AFC rep in the big one: Baltimore

descendency
07-28-2010, 05:30 AM
Chan Gailey won't be fired and the Jets are not that good.

They're still the 3rd best team in the division. If it weren't for what should be a hangable offense (tanking), the Jets don't even make the playoffs and according to most NFL power rankings, they are not even in the top 15 (Before the Colts gave the Jets the game, they were 19th on ESPN and 17th on CBS).

When the Jets O struggles because their running game is a 1 back system (draft shonn greene high in fantasy fyi), their defense will spend large amounts of time on the field. They'll lose games in the 4th... that is if Sanchez can manage to not throw 5 INTs.

The only reason the Dolphins might be 3rd best is because their DL is now falling apart on a daily basis.

I basically agree with the rest, except I have the Raiders winning the AFC West.

Jvig43
07-28-2010, 06:21 AM
Chan Gailey won't be fired and the Jets are not that good.

They're still the 3rd best team in the division. If it weren't for what should be a hangable offense (tanking), the Jets don't even make the playoffs and according to most NFL power rankings, they are not even in the top 15 (Before the Colts gave the Jets the game, they were 19th on ESPN and 17th on CBS).

When the Jets O struggles because their running game is a 1 back system (draft shonn greene high in fantasy fyi), their defense will spend large amounts of time on the field. They'll lose games in the 4th... that is if Sanchez can manage to not throw 5 INTs.

The only reason the Dolphins might be 3rd best is because their DL is now falling apart on a daily basis.

I basically agree with the rest, except I have the Raiders winning the AFC West.

I have the raiders getting the number one pick in the draft.............
A man can hope right?

descendency
07-28-2010, 06:23 AM
I have the raiders getting the number one pick in the draft.............
A man can hope right?

if Jason Campbell and Bruce Gradkowski start hanging out with Sergio Kindle. The Raiders might have to bail out JaMarcus Russell :D

AntoinCD
07-28-2010, 07:49 AM
Prediction: Kubiak joins John Fox in the unemployment line. Their elite level talent isn't that high. The four you mentioned and I would be close to putting Owen Daniels in that level. But after that it's not very good. Their defense sucks. It's time for everyone to jump back off the Texans bandwagon.

Joecool
07-28-2010, 07:53 AM
NFC S: New Orleans
NFC E: New York
NFC W: 49ers
NFC N: Green Bay
Wildcard: Atlanta / Minnesota
Super Bowl: Dolphins v Giants 24 to 17 dolphins win!
AFC W: Raiders
AFC S: Colts
AFC N: Ravens
AFC E: Dolphins
Wildcard: Bengals / Broncos

tjsunstein
07-28-2010, 08:00 AM
NFC S: New Orleans
NFC E: New York
NFC W: 49ers
NFC N: Green Bay
Wildcard: Atlanta / Minnesota
Super Bowl: Dolphins v Giants 24 to 17 dolphins win!
AFC W: Raiders
AFC S: Colts
AFC N: Ravens
AFC E: Dolphins
Wildcard: Bengals / Broncos
Only one NFC East team, and one AFC East team (Dolphins?). Sure to be wrong but it's original, I'll give you that.

Brent
07-28-2010, 09:03 AM
Sure to be wrong
I don't think that's fair to say. Predicting those fringe playoff teams is ******* impossible.

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 09:19 AM
Romo didnt take a huge step forward last year? Come on now. He was one of the most efficient QBs in the league. He eliminated the turnovers (Single digit interceptions and a career low, 6 fumbles) and his decision making vastly improved. Tony is an elite QB in this league...just give him time and he'll make good things happen. There in lies a potential problem, though...I cant sit here and say I have 100% confidence in our pass protection.

But honestly, Romo is a stud and he really elevated his already great play last season...and he played fantastic football down the stretch as well. 9 TDs to 2 Ints in December. We have a Super Bowl caliber QB, we may not have the line, though. I dont care who the QB was last season...they werent winning that game against Minnesota. Their rushers were in the backfield at the snap.

Brent
07-28-2010, 09:31 AM
Romo didnt take a huge step forward last year? Come on now. He was one of the most efficient QBs in the league. He eliminated the turnovers (Single digit interceptions and a career low, 6 fumbles) and his decision making vastly improved. Tony is an elite QB in this league...just give him time and he'll make good things happen. There in lies a potential problem, though...I cant sit here and say I have 100% confidence in our pass protection.

But honestly, Romo is a stud and he really elevated his already great play last season...and he played fantastic football down the stretch as well. 9 TDs to 2 Ints in December. We have a Super Bowl caliber QB, we may not have the line, though. I dont care who the QB was last season...they werent winning that game against Minnesota. Their rushers were in the backfield at the snap.
An elite QB would have varied up his snap calls to keep the D line guessing... just sayin'

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 09:40 AM
An elite QB would have varied up his snap calls to keep the D line guessing... just sayin'

Pftt...nothing was working. Romo gets plenty of freedom at the line, and he frequently audibles and hot routes and what not. Our line was completely dominated from start to finish...nothing would have made a difference. Colombo was probably rushed back too soon, because he **** the bed on the right side and Flo got hurt and worked...and Free didnt fair that much better.

Gay Ork Wang
07-28-2010, 09:48 AM
i dont see the Panthers making it. They have a strong running game i give u that, but i just dont see Matt Moore wowing everyone and the defense has a lot of questions.

Splat
07-28-2010, 09:51 AM
I hope you are right about the Chiefs but their D worries me a great deal.

I like their DB's and the DL while not great is better then giving credit but they have no depth and huge question marks at LB outside of Hali.

Brent
07-28-2010, 10:11 AM
Pftt...nothing was working. Romo gets plenty of freedom at the line, and he frequently audibles and hot routes and what not. Our line was completely dominated from start to finish...nothing would have made a difference. Colombo was probably rushed back too soon, because he **** the bed on the right side and Flo got hurt and worked...and Free didnt fair that much better.
I meant to say snap count.

I just wanted to provoke someone getting all pissy about the idea of Romo as an elite QB. I just love to instigate too much.

LizardState
07-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Consider for a moment. When has Wade Philips had his team live up to their billing?

Phillips always has survived this prediction forever & it's followed him everywhere he went in his NFL career.

So he's not Mr. Charisma as an NFL HC, but if you work for Jerry Jones it s/b obvious who you allow to all the camera face time & who does all the talking at press conferences. Following an overbearing, Type A personality, Living NFL Legend like Parcells in that highest profiled of any NFL team job didn't enhance his reputation as personable either. I think he's a classic technician type of coach, an Xs & Os quiet type guy, instead of a charismatic buttslapping rah-rah type, what Tim Brown called the "3-Minute Yeller" type of HC (was he reffing Gruden when he said that? I think so). Wade's father Bum was that type of HC, not so the son.

Can't argue with his team-building results where designing 3-4 defenses are concerned either, & that's why they call the Cowboys the NFC Bolts team.

No we can't make Dallas the SB entry for the NFC in thier own home stadium just yet, but you can't ignore the pages they turned last yr, got the playoffs W monkey off their backs, & Romo elevated himself on to the top shelf of NFL QBs by slicing & dicing division rival Philly in 3 of 3 games.

If Doug Free works out at OLT or Columbo returns to his Pro Bowl form there & the offense (RBs especially) stays healthy they could be right there. Also if Dez Bryant lives up to the highly raised bar of expectations, he & Miles Austin are a hall of a 1-2 punch at WR, then thank God they no longer have to depend on Williams' development, don't forget Witten, arguably the best TE in the league. Big factor is home field throughout the playoffs -- if they get that with the Big Show right there in Jerryland as a realistic goal, watch out.

I know the OL is a major factor & the Dallas schedule is brutal -- again, yet another trip to freaking Frozen Tundra in Lambeau Cheeseheadland? C'mon, give us a break -- you can't make them SB44 champs yet. The Packers gave up more sacks than anyone else last yr, everybody is picking them for another SB but I would say they have more OL issues to resolve than Dallas.


But after last season & being the 1st NFL team to sign all its draftees you can't scratch Dallas just yet either.

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 11:23 AM
I meant to say snap count.

I just wanted to provoke someone getting all pissy about the idea of Romo as an elite QB. I just love to instigate too much.

I still love you Brent.

descendency
07-28-2010, 12:09 PM
Phillips will be Dallas' coach next year too. He is the only coach who has produced a playoff win in Dallas in like 20 years. (well 15?)

Breaker
07-28-2010, 12:27 PM
Homer prediction indeed.

I apologize, but Chicago will mutilate Carolina.

Julius Peppers is going to be taking a dump on Matt Moore's head all day long, and Tommie Harris will be flinging some of that poo into Clausen's face as he weep on the sideline. All the while, Jay Cutler is bombing TD passes to Johnny Knox giving old man Fox Hiroshima flashbacks.

Scotty D
07-28-2010, 12:50 PM
Homer prediction indeed.

I apologize, but Chicago will mutilate Carolina.

Julius Peppers is going to be taking a dump on Matt Moore's head all day long, and Tommie Harris will be flinging some of that poo into Clausen's face as he weep on the sideline. All the while, Jay Cutler is bombing TD passes to Johnny Knox giving old man Fox Hiroshima flashbacks.

Chicago's offensive line with Martz's system is a huge question mark. Julius Peppers is Haynesworth 2.0 waiting to happen. You talk like Harris is a sure thing. I know Cutler came on at the end of the year but he can't throw that many INTs again. I would take Carolina over Chicago.

I have the raiders getting the number one pick in the draft.............
A man can hope right?

Raiders are going have a solid team this year. Rolando is going to win DROY.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 01:00 PM
Tony is an elite QB in this league...just give him time and he'll make good things happen.

Give any Quarterback in the league worth talking about time and they will make good things happen. Personally I think to many people throw around the word Elite and throw it around about too many players. Starting calibre is not elite. Outside of Manning, Brees and Brady there aren't any elite Quarterbacks in the league. After those three you have the likes of Rivers, Rodgers, Schaub, Favre, McNabb, Roethlisberger, all of whom are better than Tony Romo. To say that Romo is an elite Quarterback is to say that at very least there are ten Elite Quarterbacks in this league.

CC.SD
07-28-2010, 01:15 PM
Homer prediction indeed.

I apologize, but Chicago will mutilate Carolina.

Julius Peppers is going to be taking a dump on Matt Moore's head all day long, and Tommie Harris will be flinging some of that poo into Clausen's face as he weep on the sideline. All the while, Jay Cutler is bombing TD passes to Johnny Knox giving old man Fox Hiroshima flashbacks.

This was awesome

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 03:40 PM
Give any Quarterback in the league worth talking about time and they will make good things happen. Personally I think to many people throw around the word Elite and throw it around about too many players. Starting calibre is not elite. Outside of Manning, Brees and Brady there aren't any elite Quarterbacks in the league. After those three you have the likes of Rivers, Rodgers, Schaub, Favre, McNabb, Roethlisberger, all of whom are better than Tony Romo. To say that Romo is an elite Quarterback is to say that at very least there are ten Elite Quarterbacks in this league.

The league is incredibly deep at the QB position, these days. And they're all close at the top. You could certainly call him elite. And Mcnabb being better than him, is a joke. What makes any of the players you listed, distinctly better than Romo? I could reel off a whole list that I'd consider "elite", that's just the way it is these days. Most of these guys would be interchangeable. They're all excellent talents. In comparison to past years...these guy are all turning out MVP caliber seasons, damn near each year. The QB postion has never been deeper. You want to talk about a different criteria...involving playoff or superbowl wins (more team oriented), then whatever. But as far as talent goes, this is a QB league, and there are a bevy of elite talents out there.

D-Unit
07-28-2010, 03:54 PM
More people are saying don't believe in the Cowboys than saying believe in them.

No bold statement. Go ahead and pump up New Orleans, Minnesota and Green Bay. Everyone else is too.

Gay Ork Wang
07-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Chicago's offensive line with Martz's system is a huge question mark. Julius Peppers is Haynesworth 2.0 waiting to happen. You talk like Harris is a sure thing. I know Cutler came on at the end of the year but he can't throw that many INTs again. I would take Carolina over Chicago.



Raiders are going have a solid team this year. Rolando is going to win DROY.
i dont see the Carolina defense as a strenght at all. they have Beason and Gamble. Their DL is a big question and their safeties arent that strong. where is the pass rush gonna come from? Everette Brown?

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 03:58 PM
The league is incredibly deep at the QB position, these days. And they're all close at the top. You could certainly call him elite. And Mcnabb being better than him, is a joke. What makes any of the players you listed, distinctly better than Romo? I could reel off a whole list that I'd consider "elite", that's just the way it is these days. Most of these guys would be interchangeable. They're all excellent talents. In comparison to past years...these guy are all turning out MVP caliber seasons, damn near each year. The QB postion has never been deeper. You want to talk about a different criteria...involving playoff or superbowl wins (more team oriented), then whatever. But as far as talent goes, this is a QB league, and there are a bevy of elite talents out there.

The term elite means the best in a certain grouping. Manning is elite and Romo doesn't compare to his ability. Brees is elite and Romo doesn't compare to his ability. Brady is elite and Romo doesn't compare to his ability. Quarterbacks are getting better but the elite Quarterbacks are also getting better. If Quarterbacks get better it doesn't mean that more of them become elite it means that we have to raise the bar as to what makes a Quarterback elite. There are 32 Quarterbacks in the league. That means, by definition, that 15 are better than average. I named a large amount of players who are in a similar or better playing level than Romo and I got to 10 Quarterbacks. Are you telling me that there 10 of the 15 above average Quarterbacks in the NFL are elite?

Splat
07-28-2010, 04:00 PM
Outside of Manning, Brees and Brady there aren't any elite Quarterbacks in the league.

Agreed.

And Rivers is first in line in the next group after the big 3.

Scotty D
07-28-2010, 04:04 PM
Is Favre elite?

P-L
07-28-2010, 04:07 PM
Well MOTH, you and I certainly have a different interpretation of the word "elite." Just because there is a lot of talented quarterbacks in the league does not mean that there are a lot of elite ones. The second tier of quarterbacks is much larger than the top tier, and I would only call the top tier "elite." Peyton Manning and Drew Brees are elite quarterbacks in the league. Tony Romo is not. He is closer to the Matt Ryans and Jay Cutlers of the third tier than he is to Peyton Manning and Drew Brees.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 04:07 PM
Agreed.

And Rivers is first in line in the next group after the big 3.

I'd agree. I would say you have Manning, Brees & Brady in the Elite Group. You then have the "Could become Elite or used to be Elite" Group with the likes of Rivers, Rodgers and probably still Favre. You then have the Good Group with Schaub, Big Ben, Romo, Eli, McNabb. You then have the above average group with the likes of Cutler, Flacco and Matty Ice.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 04:08 PM
Is Favre elite?

Not anymore. Definately used to be but Favre now isn't Favre from 10 years ago. Hell he isn't even the Favre from 5 years ago. But he's still pretty damn good.

Timbathia
07-28-2010, 04:17 PM
Kansas City
Every year there comes a team that had no success the previous year that surprises almost everyone except their loyal fans. That team this year will be Kansas City.


From what I am hearing from KC fans, them making the playoffs would definitely surprise them as well as the rest of us.

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 04:19 PM
The term elite means the best in a certain grouping. Manning is elite and Romo doesn't compare to his ability. Brees is elite and Romo doesn't compare to his ability. Brady is elite and Romo doesn't compare to his ability. Quarterbacks are getting better but the elite Quarterbacks are also getting better. If Quarterbacks get better it doesn't mean that more of them become elite it means that we have to raise the bar as to what makes a Quarterback elite. There are 32 Quarterbacks in the league. That means, by definition, that 15 are better than average. I named a large amount of players who are in a similar or better playing level than Romo and I got to 10 Quarterbacks. Are you telling me that there 10 of the 15 above average Quarterbacks in the NFL are elite?

You put Tony Romo on the Patriots...he's putting up the same kind of numbers Brady is, and vice versa. From a talent stand point, it's a lot closer than you're making it out to be. Tony Romo is every bit the QB of those listed and he may boast the greatest escapability and improvision in the league. What's the criteria you're basing things off of...to say guys like Rivers or Rodgers are so much better than Romo? From a statistical break down, they're interchangeable...and Romo's one playoff victory is still more than that of Rodgers...if you want to go that route. These guys are all incredibly close in talent level and they all put up similar statistics each year.

Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers, Romo, Ben, Favre...play at an elite level week after week. Schaub gets a lot of hate for just being a fantasy guy...but he was right there with these guys last year, as well. But of the aforementioned 8, maybe save Peyton, they're interchangable, imo. Peyton's really in a league of his own, given the unconventional way he goes about playing the game.

Peyton, Brady, and Brees...may have a small step on the others...but I would still have no reservations about extending that elite tag out further. There are a lot of excellent QBs in this league.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 04:22 PM
But of the aforementioned 8, maybe save Peyton, they're interchangable, imo. Peyton's really in a league of his own, given the unconventional way he goes about playing the game.

By saying that you are saying that there are one of two things. Either 8 Elite Quarterbacks (and I have trouble with the idea of 25% of anything being considered elite) or 1 Elite Quarterback (you singled out Manning as being the only one to seperate himself from the group). Elite, by pure definition, is someone who stands above the rest.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 04:26 PM
Peyton, Brady, and Brees...may have a small step on the others...but I would still have no reservations about extending that elite tag out further. There are a lot of excellent QBs in this league.

But if you extend it to that 2nd Tier (the likes of Rivers and Rodgers) then you can have arguments of extending it to the 3rd Tier (the likes of Romo and Eli). But then well get some pissed of Ravens fans or Bears fans asking why is Tony Romo considered Elite but Joe Flacco and Jay Cutler aren't? And then we start calling them elite.

Outside of the people who designed the Pro Bowl selections this year I don't think anyone truthfully belives that there are 10 or more Elite Quarterbacks. We need to be very selective when determining the Elite so that little step, that little difference is what makes someone the Elite player.

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 04:33 PM
Well MOTH, you and I certainly have a different interpretation of the word "elite." Just because there is a lot of talented quarterbacks in the league does not mean that there are a lot of elite ones. The second tier of quarterbacks is much larger than the top tier, and I would only call the top tier "elite." Peyton Manning and Drew Brees are elite quarterbacks in the league. Tony Romo is not. He is closer to the Matt Ryans and Jay Cutlers of the third tier than he is to Peyton Manning and Drew Brees.

Bleh. Cutler doesnt deserve anything right now. But anyway...I'm fine with your opinion. I just dont see the QBs being as spread out, talent wise, that a lot of others do. Rivers, Rodgers, and Romo are all on the same level in my book...and they're some of the best players in the league, not just at the QB position. The position as a whole is deep...if I had to come up with a top 100 players in the league list, QBs would be prevelent and many would be high on the list. As contradicting as it may sound...I do view Peyton, Brady, and Brees to be a little better...but the rest mentioned play on a similar level and I think, deserve to be mentioned among the league's elite. I really do hold the talent level at the position in high regard. And I dont see what distinctly seperates the lot. Most fans of these Qb's teams, wouldnt change their QB for anyone...because, they're playing at an insanely productive level. All of the QBs listed are. And I view them all as interchangeable pieces, because they are so close in the talent department.

vidae
07-28-2010, 04:37 PM
From what I am hearing from KC fans, them making the playoffs would definitely surprise them as well as the rest of us.

I would be surprised. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, just very unlikely.

Still, it's great to get some KC love. :D

BeerBaron
07-28-2010, 04:38 PM
I like Oakland's odds to be 2nd in that division with a very outside shot at a wildcard than I do the Chiefs....weak schedule sure, but they're a weak team imo.

I think you're also a little too homer-optimistic about the Panthers.... a .500 season is perfectly reasonable, but I think the Saints and Falcons are the clear 1 and 2 in that division, and even if you snake a game or two from one of them, the Panthers have proven to be a team in the past who'll win a tough game and then seem to implode in a game where they're favored.

I also think that unless Matt Moore plays extremely well, not just decently, we'll see Clausen sooner rather than later. Maybe Fox trying to save his job (if possible) causes him to put in Clausen sooner or maybe Moore just doesn't play that well.....

M.O.T.H.
07-28-2010, 04:45 PM
But if you extend it to that 2nd Tier (the likes of Rivers and Rodgers) then you can have arguments of extending it to the 3rd Tier (the likes of Romo and Eli). But then well get some pissed of Ravens fans or Bears fans asking why is Tony Romo considered Elite but Joe Flacco and Jay Cutler aren't? And then we start calling them elite.

Outside of the people who designed the Pro Bowl selections this year I don't think anyone truthfully belives that there are 10 or more Elite Quarterbacks. We need to be very selective when determining the Elite so that little step, that little difference is what makes someone the Elite player.

What puts Romo in this 3rd tier, exactly?

And who cares about pissed off fan opinion, in regard to Flacco and Cutler? Neither is close to elite status yet. The players I listed are all of similar talent and production.

The word elite...stands for the most superior or "the best". And personally...I cant justify leaving out the guys I mentioned. One could surely limit it to two or three players, if one must. But my preference, would be to include those guys that are next in line. They're all playing at a level that is vastly superior to the rest of the field. Statistically speaking...can guys like Rivers, Rodgers, and Romo even get that much better? Their numbers are every bit as good as Peyton's. And statistics aside...from a week to week basis, they're right on that pinnacle. They perform at a superior level week in and week out.

Timbathia
07-28-2010, 05:06 PM
I would be surprised. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, just very unlikely.

Still, it's great to get some KC love. :D

Yeah, there hasnt been too much KC love in recent years.

To me it is well within the realms of possibility for any of the AFC West teams to finish second in the division............ and except for the Chargers, any of them to finish last in the division as well.

Splat
07-28-2010, 05:27 PM
I like Oakland's odds to be 2nd in that division with a very outside shot at a wildcard than I do the Chiefs....weak schedule sure, but they're a weak team imo.

I don't know why everyone is so high on the Raiders I'm not seeing it, it's a toss up on who comes in second but it doesn't really matter, I don't see two west teams making the playoffs.

BeerBaron
07-28-2010, 05:37 PM
I don't know why everyone is so high on the Raiders I'm not seeing it, it's a toss up on who comes in second but it doesn't really matter, I don't see two west teams making the playoffs.

Neither do I, that's why I said "very outside chance," but the Raiders actually looked competative a few times last year once Russell was out at starting QB. Campbell is an upgrade over Gradkowski, I like the potential of their running game, and while they may be fairly mish-mashed between 3-4 and 4-3 personnel, I like some of what they've got on defense. (Nnamdi, Seymour, Branch...and depending on whether they run a 4-3 or a 3-4, I like the potential of a few of their linebackers too)

The division behind SD is just a mess....Would it surprise me if all 3 of the Broncos, Chiefs and Raiders were competitive? No...would it surprise me if all 3 were picking in the top 5 next year? Also no.....Can't get a read on them for the life of me.

BlindSite
07-28-2010, 05:40 PM
I also think that unless Matt Moore plays extremely well, not just decently, we'll see Clausen sooner rather than later. Maybe Fox trying to save his job (if possible) causes him to put in Clausen sooner or maybe Moore just doesn't play that well.....

Optimism aside, Kalil, Beason, Johnson, Smith and Davidson himself have announced there's no competition for the starting role, it's Moore's job. It would take an implosion of epic proportions (see Delhomme, Jake) for Moore to be benched in favor of Clausen. Fox's failing is also Moore's benefit this year, Veterans rarely lose their job and Moore has more experience than any QB on the roster. Even if he has a bad game or two, Fox knows he's the team's best chance this year. Clausen will not start a game unless there's an injury or catastrophic implosion.

On the other thing: I know someone mentioned the secondary only has beason, but the Panthers quietly have one of the better secondaries in the NFL, the biggest liability in coverage last year was Harris, which is why we was traded, Captain Munnerlyn isn't a big name because he was a 7th round pick, but in the Nickel he actually took outside receivers. Even then he and richard Marshall gave up just 2 touchdowns between them. The linebackers and secondary are locked down. It's the DLine that's the only position of worry.

I don't know why everyone is so high on the Raiders I'm not seeing it, it's a toss up on who comes in second but it doesn't really matter, I don't see two west teams making the playoffs.

Playoffs are an impossibly prediction, realistically half the teams from the previous year flame out and another bunch of teams rise to the occasion and it's generally due to schedule, injuries and a few key FA / draft pick performances.

I like the chiefs secondary, I like their defensive line to improve and I love their offense with Cassel.

Splat
07-28-2010, 05:42 PM
No one wants you to be right more then me. :)

vidae
07-28-2010, 06:29 PM
It's actually kind of funny, because when I wanted Rolando McClain people said "you don't take an ILB top 10" and the Raiders take him 8th overall and it's perfectly acceptable.

The Raiders are "about to breakout" every year too. I'll believe it when I see it.

D-Unit
07-28-2010, 06:37 PM
The term elite is so fake. Regardless of ability, most QBs only get labeled elite until they've won a SB. If you really want to create a category of elite.. then there is only 1 elite QB. Peyton Manning. Nobody can touch him. Not Brady, not Brees, not Favre. He does more with nothing than any of those other guys.

GB12
07-28-2010, 06:37 PM
Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, and Rodgers are all clearly better than Romo. I don't think anyone other than Cowboys fans would argue that. After the top five I think you can stick Romo in there anywhere from 6 to 10. I'd probably stick him at 7 or 8.

CC.SD
07-28-2010, 06:43 PM
It's actually kind of funny, because when I wanted Rolando McClain people said "you don't take an ILB top 10" and the Raiders take him 8th overall and it's perfectly acceptable.

The Raiders are "about to breakout" every year too. I'll believe it when I see it.

Wouldn't you know, we agree on this one.

and you are sounding suspiciously down on the Berry pick, Vidae.

BlindSite
07-28-2010, 06:47 PM
Wouldn't you know, we agree on this one.

and you are sounding suspiciously down on the Berry pick, Vidae.

I think Berry's a better long term pick, until he arrived the safeties were beyond terrible in KC.

CC.SD
07-28-2010, 06:53 PM
I think Berry's a better long term pick, until he arrived the safeties were beyond terrible in KC.

There is no doubt, although my eyebrow is still raised over whatever happened with Pollard.

vidae
07-28-2010, 07:02 PM
I'm not down on the Berry pick at all, you know this! As for Pollard, it was time for him to go. I loved him but he never went for the sure tackle.. he ALWAYS went for the big hit. He was a liability in both coverage and the run game here since he was drafted.

I'm really glad he is kicking so much ass in Houston, but if he were playing like he is there we'd still have him on the roster.

prock
07-28-2010, 07:16 PM
Not anymore. Definately used to be but Favre now isn't Favre from 10 years ago. Hell he isn't even the Favre from 5 years ago. But he's still pretty damn good.

Favre threw 33 TDs and 7 picks last year while completing 68% of his passes for over 4200 yards. It makes no sense on how Favre was elite 5-10 years ago, and not now. In fact, his best seasons besides last year were over 10 years ago. Might want to rethink this post.

Splat
07-28-2010, 07:17 PM
Pollard was average at best for the Chiefs, you can blame the coaching staff some as well as Pollard but for whatever reason it just didn't work here it happens.

BlindSite
07-28-2010, 07:58 PM
Favre threw 33 TDs and 7 picks last year while completing 68% of his passes for over 4200 yards. It makes no sense on how Favre was elite 5-10 years ago, and not now. In fact, his best seasons besides last year were over 10 years ago. Might want to rethink this post.

This, favre was one of the best QBs in football last year and even with his age he's one of the toughest SOBs in the business, torn bicep with the Jets, busted ankle throughout the season with the Vikes and he just keeps producing.

D-Unit
07-28-2010, 11:53 PM
Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, and Rodgers are all clearly better than Romo. I don't think anyone other than Cowboys fans would argue that. After the top five I think you can stick Romo in there anywhere from 6 to 10. I'd probably stick him at 7 or 8.
Please give me the justification for Rivers and Rodgers being unquestionably better than Romo.

vidae
07-29-2010, 12:04 AM
The only people who think Romo is better than Rodgers or Rivers are Cowboys fans.

D-Unit
07-29-2010, 12:10 AM
The only people who think Romo is better than Rodgers or Rivers are Cowboys fans.
I haven't said he's better, but I want to know how the others are proven to be better. Give me the justification. As far as wins and numbers go, I don't see a significant difference. So what is it?

Gribble
07-29-2010, 12:12 AM
The only people who think Romo is better than Rodgers or Rivers are Cowboys fans.

I don't think anyone said that. To say that Rivers and Rodgers are a tier better than Romo doesn't really make sense to me from what all three have accomplished in their careers so far. They're all in that second tier behind the big three of Manning, Brees, and Brady right now.

LonghornsLegend
07-29-2010, 12:26 AM
Cowboys shouldn't be anointed just yet
The Cowboys seem to be the paper champs of the NFC East the addition of Dez Bryant, the health of three solid young running backs and the perceived weaknesses of their divisional rivals put together a coherent argument.

Consider for a moment. When has Wade Philips had his team live up to their billing? When have the running backs remained healthy for 16 games? When has Romo taken that step he's been predicted to take every year (though I will say he is a solid Quarterback). This brings me to my next point.



Not to say the rest of your concerns aren't warranted and without cause(then again, find me ONE team without a list of concerns for next season), but the two bolded issues don't make much sense.


When have the RB's remained healthy for 16 games? Well that's pretty much the point of having 3, because when an injury happens the RB play doesn't drop off. That's the better question, is when has the RB productivity fell off? Because even when Barber and Felix were both hurt Choice produced like an elite RB vs the best defenses in december and it's easy to assume he's gotten better since that point, as well as Felix.


When has Romo taken that next step that he was predicted to?


Did you miss last season? He lost TO(which everyone assumed he would have a terrible season without the all mighty TO around) and he threw for a career high in passing yards, threw under 10 INT's, cut his fumbles in half, and pretty much was a completely different person in terms of taking care of the football which were primarily his only concerns.



He won in December, he won in the playoffs, threw for more yards without a HOF WR, took care of the football, if those weren't the things you were expecting from him to do, then what else is he supposed to do? All those things I listed were things people said he needed to do to take the next step and he did that.


As far as the "elite" word, ehhh, everyone has a different definition, but as I said before in the Schaub thread I'm still putting my guys in tiers, and I have a really hard time understanding how Rivers would be in a completely different tier then Romo, and I'm even struggling putting Rodgers a tier higher.



Maybe someone could explain why Rivers is a tier above Romo to me, but if were just talking about personal preference that's even more reason why they should be in the same tier because there isn't much seperating the two. Romo has been alot better in terms of stats(Norv Turner has a way of accumulating stats for his QB's), both guys are extremely accurate, Romo is alot more mobile and a better thrower on the run.


Rivers has had some gutsy playoff performances, so nothing needs to be taken away from him, but I guess I'm not sure why he's so easily right behind the Brees/Manning/Brady bunch.


I personally want to see more from Rodgers as well, he throws the ball almost 100 more times a season then a guy like Phillip Rivers does so he has alot of chances to make plays, but I will give him credit where credit is due. The fact that he had so few INT's is very impressive.

LonghornsLegend
07-29-2010, 12:28 AM
I really didn't even see this last page before I posted, but that's pretty much what I'm asking too. But nobody really likes to offer up any legit answers other then "Cowboys fans are the only ones who think Romo is that good". I don't have him in my top 5 either, but let's not act like he's just good to Cowboy fans and not really good at all.

BlindSite
07-29-2010, 01:33 AM
Not to say the rest of your concerns aren't warranted and without cause(then again, find me ONE team without a list of concerns for next season), but the two bolded issues don't make much sense.


When have the RB's remained healthy for 16 games? Well that's pretty much the point of having 3, because when an injury happens the RB play doesn't drop off. That's the better question, is when has the RB productivity fell off? Because even when Barber and Felix were both hurt Choice produced like an elite RB vs the best defenses in december and it's easy to assume he's gotten better since that point, as well as Felix.


When has Romo taken that next step that he was predicted to?


Did you miss last season? He lost TO(which everyone assumed he would have a terrible season without the all mighty TO around) and he threw for a career high in passing yards, threw under 10 INT's, cut his fumbles in half, and pretty much was a completely different person in terms of taking care of the football which were primarily his only concerns.



He won in December, he won in the playoffs, threw for more yards without a HOF WR, took care of the football, if those weren't the things you were expecting from him to do, then what else is he supposed to do? All those things I listed were things people said he needed to do to take the next step and he did that.


As far as the "elite" word, ehhh, everyone has a different definition, but as I said before in the Schaub thread I'm still putting my guys in tiers, and I have a really hard time understanding how Rivers would be in a completely different tier then Romo, and I'm even struggling putting Rodgers a tier higher.



Maybe someone could explain why Rivers is a tier above Romo to me, but if were just talking about personal preference that's even more reason why they should be in the same tier because there isn't much seperating the two. Romo has been alot better in terms of stats(Norv Turner has a way of accumulating stats for his QB's), both guys are extremely accurate, Romo is alot more mobile and a better thrower on the run.


Rivers has had some gutsy playoff performances, so nothing needs to be taken away from him, but I guess I'm not sure why he's so easily right behind the Brees/Manning/Brady bunch.


I personally want to see more from Rodgers as well, he throws the ball almost 100 more times a season then a guy like Phillip Rivers does so he has alot of chances to make plays, but I will give him credit where credit is due. The fact that he had so few INT's is very impressive.

The thing with Romo has to do with my concerns for the offensive line. I am a big Romo fan, I'm not going to buy his Jersey or anything but I think he's on his way to being a very good QB in the NFL, thing is though I don't think he's good enough to overcome the weaknesses of his team in the way that Warner was able to, P. Manning seems to be able to and Drew Brees has been able to.

Superbowls and Playoffs in recent years have been decided primarily on the ability of a team to protect their quarterback, look at the recent superbowls for prime examples of this and even though Romo throws a great ball on the run, made up for the myriad of issues last year in the regular season for the most part, and has the ability to avoid the rush, I think the team will struggle against the likes of Minnesota, New Orleans and generally teams that have QBs who've been able to produce when facing venomous pass rushes like the cowboys have.

I'm not saying Romo is necessarily worse than any other QB in the NFL, I'm just saying he doesn't have that history of putting his team over the top when everyone else around him has faltered.

I still have the cowboys winning in their division I think it's all but a sealed deal that despite the issues I mentioned they'll be good enough to cruise past the eagles unless they gel early and Kolb plays better than expected, or the Giants find their groove after the injuries and upheaval they went through last year.

LonghornsLegend
07-29-2010, 01:53 AM
Yea I can buy the offensive line concerns, their legit, especially seeing the last game. Free is unknown, some other guys are getting older, we just don't know all that much about most of those guys so I can't argue against that. But I see your point about over coming weaknesses.

BlindSite
07-29-2010, 02:29 AM
I know Free is an unknown but I think the way he played was encouraging last year.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-29-2010, 03:46 AM
I haven't said he's better, but I want to know how the others are proven to be better. Give me the justification. As far as wins and numbers go, I don't see a significant difference. So what is it?

The way Rivers played down the stretch of the regular season places him firmly above Romo in my book. He (Rivers) has been performing great for many seasons now, but he arguably led the most efficient and dangerous passing attack last year, which was a landmark year for great passing attacks.

As for Rodgers, I think he will climb into near-elite territory after this year, but placing him higher than Romo is projection right now.

AntoinCD
07-29-2010, 04:26 AM
I think it is way too tough to start definitively ranking the QBs after Manning, Brady, Brees(not neccessarily that order). My problem with Romo is what does he do when it's clutch time? I have seen too many times him not being able to lift the whole team when it matters. The 'elite' QBs make everyone around them better.

It's hard to find tangeable evidence to put Rivers and Rodgers above Romo but what you have to think about is 'who would I prefer in the last two minutes of a playoff game, when we're down by 4?' Personally right now I'd take Rivers over anyone but the three QBs I mentioned earlier.

Brent
07-29-2010, 08:24 AM
The way Rivers played down the stretch of the regular season places him firmly above Romo in my book. He (Rivers) has been performing great for many seasons now, but he arguably led the most efficient and dangerous passing attack last year, which was a landmark year for great passing attacks.
how about his play in December? seems like, every year, he ends with a 4-5 game streak

NY+Giants=NYG
07-29-2010, 09:06 AM
Yea I can buy the offensive line concerns, their legit, especially seeing the last game. Free is unknown, some other guys are getting older, we just don't know all that much about most of those guys so I can't argue against that. But I see your point about over coming weaknesses.

Basically it comes down to each fan base is happy with their QB. Also, each QB is very successful within their own specific system. So comparing them is hard to do. Brady, Brees, and Manning are the highest level. The rest I tend to clump in one level after that. You can even say that with those 3 elite Qbs too. They are great QBs within a great system, with great coaches and personnel around them. I think Romo, Rivers, and Rodgers are all equal, and highly productive within their respective systems.

Garrett, Turner, and the WCO system for Rodgers are all proven systems, that are QB friendly. They are all good QBs.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
07-29-2010, 09:31 AM
how about his play in December? seems like, every year, he ends with a 4-5 game streak

True but he begins every tear going 2-3 the last 3 years thats been the chargers record after 5 games. If he gets credit for the streak give him credit for putting his team into the hole.

Splat
07-29-2010, 09:34 AM
Rivers is better then both Rodgers and Romo so there's that...:)

tjsunstein
07-29-2010, 10:06 AM
I haven't said he's better, but I want to know how the others are proven to be better. Give me the justification. As far as wins and numbers go, I don't see a significant difference. So what is it?

Rodgers is just as good as a passer, possibly better depending on what stats you give importance to, and twice the scrambler Romo is. Rodgers does hold on to the ball too long at time, upping his sack rate and lowering his interception total. He'd rather tuck the ball and live another down instead of chucking the ball into coverage.

Addict
07-29-2010, 10:34 AM
Homer prediction indeed.

I apologize, but Chicago will mutilate Carolina.

Julius Peppers is going to be taking a dump on Matt Moore's head all day long, and Tommie Harris will be flinging some of that poo into Clausen's face as he weep on the sideline. All the while, Jay Cutler is bombing TD passes to Johnny Knox giving old man Fox Hiroshima flashbacks.

I didn't know the Panthers signed Knox and converted him to CB...

Gribble
07-29-2010, 10:48 AM
Rodgers does hold on to the ball too long at time, upping his sack rate and lowering his interception total. He'd rather tuck the ball and live another down instead of chucking the ball into coverage.

And that doesn't apply to Romo? Last year he had a career high in sacks at 34 and a career low in interceptions at 9. The guy wasn't chucking the ball into coverage this past season.

NY+Giants=NYG
07-29-2010, 11:14 AM
And that doesn't apply to Romo? Last year he had a career high in sacks at 34 and a career low in interceptions at 9. The guy wasn't chucking the ball into coverage this past season.

Those stats really don't tell you what exactly is going on.

Rodgers plays in a WCO which traditionally the reads go from bottom to top. So if the nearest progressions are covered and you feel the rush, it makes no sense to chuck it deep hoping your top progression is open. Or the QB may not have time to take a peak at it because he feels the pressure or has gotten sack by that time.

For Romo, things could be different as well. When I talked to Coach Garrett Sr. he said a QB like Romo doesn't have that many progressions. Mind you this when early on when he was having success. But I see the high sacks, I think of Coach Garrett calling more vertical concept plays. So that in turn means the protections are going to be tailored towards those concepts. Meaning 3,5, and 7 step drops. If the formation is 5 WR, then there would be no help by the RB. If it's 4 WR, that means the RB would have to make the line right. So if two or more pass rushers are coming in, Romo is done. He either is getting sacked, or very well could be throwing the ball into coverage, but rather then getting picked off, they are going incomplete.

Just because the end number of ints is low doesn't mean he isn't doing stupid stuff. Same with any Qb. You can still do bone headed stuff, and still manage to somehow keep that int number low via sacks, or even incomplete passes helping you.

M.O.T.H.
07-29-2010, 11:23 AM
Romo doesnt make a habit of throwing the ball away. So he does actually lay down on purpose, instead of throwing the ball stupidly into coverage. He extends the play as much as possible, and then if nothing is there, he'd take the sack, instead of throwing, like he used to do. And as for the fumbles...he doesnt hold the ball like a loaf of bread anymore. Tony is ever improving, his improvements in the turnover game are greatly contributed to his changes in his playing style. The guy shouldnt even had that many ints really...if you recall one that tomahawked off of Witten's foot and the couple that Roy popped up in the air. bleh. Romo really has come a long way and has all but eliminated most mistakes or flaws in his game.

He's still relatively short into his starting career, despite the fact that he's 30. I just wish we had some more consistent pass protection for him.

LizardState
07-29-2010, 11:36 AM
The term elite is so fake. Regardless of ability, most QBs only get labeled elite until they've won a SB. If you really want to create a category of elite.. then there is only 1 elite QB. Peyton Manning. Nobody can touch him. Not Brady, not Brees, not Favre. He does more with nothing than any of those other guys.

Agreed, D.

Peyton Manning transcends mere elite status, he is state of the art for NFL QBs.

An elite NFL QB is one fortunate enough to have a SBworthy supporting cast. No QB gets the ring alone despite all the crap you hear about Team Favre, Team, Brees, etc.

xxxxxxxx
07-29-2010, 12:47 PM
to be honest, why is peyton manning above all the rest? he plays in a dome, has had quality recievers his entire career, and while his regular season stats are fantastic, he has won one superbowl... against the rex grossman lead bears... and cost his team another by throwing the ball right into tracy porter chest plate. now im going to get blasted because i said the all mighting god of peyton manning isnt the best, but please someone counterpoint me. i think my point are valid. ill take a healthy brady or manning any day of the week. before manning beat the grossman led bears... he had the same playoff stigma as romo. isnt manning like 9-8 all time? so he's been to the playoffs nine times with one ring to show for it.... yeah....

prock
07-29-2010, 12:57 PM
to be honest, why is peyton manning above all the rest? he plays in a dome, has had quality recievers his entire career, and while his regular season stats are fantastic, he has won one superbowl... against the rex grossman lead bears... and cost his team another by throwing the ball right into tracy porter chest plate. now im going to get blasted because i said the all mighting god of peyton manning isnt the best, but please someone counterpoint me. i think my point are valid. ill take a healthy brady or manning any day of the week. before manning beat the grossman led bears... he had the same playoff stigma as romo. isnt manning like 9-8 all time? so he's been to the playoffs nine times with one ring to show for it.... yeah....

His playoff concerns are legitimate, but he still has a ring. If you watch the Colts, you will see how no quarterback does more for their team than Peyton. His line sucks balls, but he doesn't need a good line because he is the best at adjusting his line and getting rid of the ball quickly. Manning has also won 4 MVPs.