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Rosebud
07-28-2010, 01:13 PM
Am I alone in failing to understand what makes Schaub a top 5 QB like everyone on here seems to believe? I see people talk about how he's clearly better than guys like Eli and Romo and to me that seems ridiculous. Someone please explain to me how he's not the most over-rated QB in the NFL because I see a very nice starter but not someone clearly superior to your Flacco's and Ryan's much less you Eli's and Romo's.

Ness
07-28-2010, 01:23 PM
Where is your evidence for what you said in your first two statements? I've never really seen people around here talk about Matt Schaub in the light you're insinuating. Regardless, he's put up production compared to the likes of Eli Manning and Tony Romo. He's only had one good season, but it did prove that he has the ability to be an elite quarterback in the NFL.

ThePudge
07-28-2010, 01:24 PM
I don't think he's Top 5 by any means. Lower end of Top 10 (which is still good.) He's working in a favorable system with the best receiver in football. At this point though I'd say he's absolutely superior to your Flacco's and Ryan's.

CC.SD
07-28-2010, 01:30 PM
It's his fantasy numbers.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 01:30 PM
Am I alone in failing to understand what makes Schaub a top 5 QB like everyone on here seems to believe? I see people talk about how he's clearly better than guys like Eli and Romo and to me that seems ridiculous.

Well he isn't a Top 5 Quarterback. You have Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers and Rodgers who are all probably better than him, in my opinion. I would be of the opinion that Schaub is better than Romo and sure as hell better than Eli.

If you are wondering why people seem to think he's that good then it could have something to do with him leading the league in passing last year.

yourfavestoner
07-28-2010, 01:33 PM
It's his fantasy numbers.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

TACKLE
07-28-2010, 01:35 PM
Nobody really considers him a Top 5 QB.

Everybody's top 5 is something like this (or if it isn't it should be http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif)

Manning
Brady
Brees
Rivers
Rodgers



Schaub is never really considered to be in that group. Though he is certainly right there on the same level as Romo and Eli and at this point is superior to Flacco and Ryan.

Mr.Regular
07-28-2010, 01:37 PM
Schaub top 5? Thats a joke.
Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers are a clear top 5 in my mind. Plus throw Favre into the mix. Id take Eli, Ben, Romo, and Ryan probably over him too. Maybe others.
Schaub is a product of statistics and fantasy fans who know nothing about real football.

yourfavestoner
07-28-2010, 01:39 PM
Schaub is the newest king of garbage time statistics.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 01:44 PM
Id take Eli, Ben, Romo, and Ryan probably over him too. Maybe others.

Personally I wouldn't take any of those Quarterbacks over him. I think Ben Roethlisberger is a very good Quarterback, but vastly overated as well. In the same vein as Eli Manning. Because they won Superbowls with really good defences does not make them outstanding Quarterbacks. Eli is a decent starter with nothing special about him. Matty Ice has had one good season followed by one not so good season. Romo is consistently inconsistent.

yourfavestoner
07-28-2010, 01:47 PM
Personally I wouldn't take any of those Quarterbacks over him. I think Ben Roethlisberger is a very good Quarterback, but vastly overated as well. In the same vein as Eli Manning. Because they won a Superbowls with really good defences does not make them outstanding Quarterbacks. Eli is a decent starter with nothing special about him. Matty Ice has had one good season followed by one not so good season. Romo is consistently inconsistent.

Typical argument by a Colts/Manning fan. Suffice to say, I'm not surprised. ;)

Texas Homer
07-28-2010, 01:49 PM
Schaub has a strong arm and is accurate.

Of course having AJ help him.

He is a fantasy football STUD(Not really relevant, yes I know.)

He needs to stay healthy of course.

When Schaub is healthy though, I like him as a top 10 NFL QB.

I'd take Schaub over Eli.

Schaub or Romo would be interesting, I'll say that.

tjsunstein
07-28-2010, 01:52 PM
Not a top 5 QB. This reminds me of the Hilary Swank episode of the office.

thenewfeature06
07-28-2010, 01:55 PM
For me he is somewhere in the 10 11 range.. You take away Andre from Schaub, hes ******. When Plex got locked up Eli still put up nice numbers and such with a bunch of guys. Schaub is definetely on the better side of quarterbacks but he is slightly overrated imo.

Gribble
07-28-2010, 01:59 PM
I'm sorry, but Schaub in Houston is 19-19 as a starter. Say all you want about "supporting cast" and "tough AFC South" but Romo is 38-17 and Eli is 50-37 and has a ring. How can you possibly put him above those two?

jayceheathman
07-28-2010, 01:59 PM
Having the best WR in the game is what makes him good. The Texans finally had a decent OL that kept him off of the ground. A lot of it is the fantasy numbers because Houston has a horrible running game so the team passes the ball a lot. He also has Owen Daniels as well as AJ.

jayceheathman
07-28-2010, 02:00 PM
I'm sorry, but Schaub in Houston is 19-19 as a starter. Say all you want about "supporting cast" and "tough AFC South" but Romo is 38-17 and Eli is 50-37 and has a ring. How can you possibly put him above those two?

I would take the Giants Oline over the Texans any day of the week.

Whats up Gribble? Maybe NMSU will win a game this year.

Seamus2602
07-28-2010, 02:06 PM
I would take the Giants Oline over the Texans every day of the week.

And their run game and their defence. Basically, what I am saying, is that the only thing the Texans do better than the Giants is pass the ball.

Gribble
07-28-2010, 02:08 PM
The Giants still have a better Oline than the Texans.

Whats up Gribble? Maybe NMSU will win a game this year.

Well we finally beat UNM and get them at home this year. We're even not picked to finish last in the WAC, SJSU is. 2 wins!

tjsunstein
07-28-2010, 02:28 PM
I'm sorry, but Schaub in Houston is 19-19 as a starter. Say all you want about "supporting cast" and "tough AFC South" but Romo is 38-17 and Eli is 50-37 and has a ring. How can you possibly put him above those two?
W-L is very decieving for quarterbacks and pitchers alike. Maybe the defense wasn't there.

Put Eli's winning percentage next to Aaron Rodgers for instance, is Eli better soley because of the record?

Scotty D
07-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Am I alone in failing to understand what makes Schaub a top 5 QB like everyone on here seems to believe? I see people talk about how he's clearly better than guys like Eli and Romo and to me that seems ridiculous. Someone please explain to me how he's not the most over-rated QB in the NFL because I see a very nice starter but not someone clearly superior to your Flacco's and Ryan's much less you Eli's and Romo's.

My rankings in the other thread were for AFTER this season is played. I put him over Eli and Romo because I was choosing who I wanted going forward. I wasn't ranking previous accomplishments.

For all the people saying he is only good because of Andre Johnson what do you want him to do? Not throw it to him? How is that even relevant. Manning had Harrison, Wayne, Clark. Just because a QB has an All Pro WR you can't hold it against him. Tom Brady should try playing with scrubs and see what numbers he puts up, OH WAIT THEY TRIED THAT AND IT FAILED. The next year they got Welker, Moss and look what happened.

Gribble
07-28-2010, 03:03 PM
i agree, supporting cast is irrelevant. it's quite clear that romo and manning won all of those games entirely by themselves, playing offense and defense, and that schaub lost all of those games completely by himself.

I just don't think Schaub can be considered an elite guy or even on the cusp of being there until his team actually makes the playoffs and is better than a .500 quarterback in the regular season. I really think saying one QB whose team hasn't been to the playoffs and has posted a 19-19 record is better than one who has been to the playoffs 3 times and is 38-17 is a stretch. Supporting cast isn't irrelevant but does it make up for that much of a difference?
Anyway this will just end up in hypotheticals and team switching... ugh.

Scotty D
07-28-2010, 03:08 PM
Schaub is the newest king of garbage time statistics.

That is a nice statement to throw around but can you actually back it up? Because there is a big difference in putting up good numbers for a bad/mediocre team and racking up stats in garbage time.

Bengals78
07-28-2010, 03:12 PM
Schaub has a strong arm and is accurate.

Of course having AJ help him.

He is a fantasy football STUD(Not really relevant, yes I know.)

He needs to stay healthy of course.

When Schaub is healthy though, I like him as a top 10 NFL QB.

I'd take Schaub over Eli.

Schaub or Romo would be interesting, I'll say that.

No, that is everything.
He is a top 5(ish) Fantasy QB.

Scotty D
07-28-2010, 03:22 PM
Holy ****,

1. There are few people in this thread arguing for Schaub.

2. None of them are using the fantasy stats as a reason for his ranking.

3. How the **** do you think QBs get points in fantasy football?

4. Eli Manning was living off his defensive line.

5. I've seen Romo make enough bonehead throws to not trust him.

6. Schaub-Romo-Manning are probably pretty equally ranked in the grand scheme of things and Schaub is my personal preference.

7. Not everyone slurp a derps the NFC East.

Ness
07-28-2010, 03:24 PM
Schaub is a product of statistics and fantasy fans who know nothing about real football.

What? So he's being successful without really being successful?

Having the best WR in the game is what makes him good. The Texans finally had a decent OL that kept him off of the ground. A lot of it is the fantasy numbers because Houston has a horrible running game so the team passes the ball a lot. He also has Owen Daniels as well as AJ.

That's like saying the reason Steve Young was successful was because he had Jerry Rice. Schaub already showed signs of decency when he was down in Atlanta. At the end of the day you still have to make the accurate throws and good decisions to be a successful starter. If it was that easy, David Carr would have thrived in Houston...or Jamie Martin would have been dynamite all the time Marc Bulger went down due to the presence of Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce. It just doesn't work like that.

The Texans offensive line may have gotten better, but Schaub himself is a much better quarterback when it comes to avoiding the sack. David Carr made Houston's offensive line look way worse than it was.

As for the "fantasy numbers" angle, you could easily say the same thing about Phillip Rivers and his dead last ranked rushing attack. By that logic Rivers would be overrated as well. On the contrary, guys like Rivers and Schaub should receive more credit for having to pass the rock so many times due to the ineffectiveness of their team's own rushing attack.

Mr.Regular
07-28-2010, 04:50 PM
What? So he's being successful without really being successful?

Stats are an awful way to judge talent, especially in football. Schaub is a good QB, no doubt about it. But I've seen people compare his stats with the elite talents in this league and make the argument that that is why Schaub himself is elite. I'm just not a fan of statistics being used in an argument to judge a players talents or value, because in football so much of any given play is the product of all 11 guys and so much of it is scheme. It's just not a statistical sport.

Anyway, I see a guy who is the beneficiary of the top WR in the game. When he's on his game, it almost always means Andre is on too. And if not, then coverage has opened up due to Andre. So much of that offense runs through AJ. Does this mean Schaub isnt that good? No, of course not. But it means he's not to be judged on his stats. Did Tom Brady all of a sudden becomes 10x better when he got Randy Moss? No. Sure, he was insane that year but he didn't get that way on his own. His stats exploded because of Randy.

So yeah, those stats are a product of the offense, which runs through Johnson for the most part. Doesn't mean Schaub isnt good, just means stats aren't a decent measure.

LonghornsLegend
07-28-2010, 05:10 PM
It's way way too hard and complicated to rank QB's one by one, you need to use tiers. I have Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo with no particuliar order at that point. I also have Rivers in that same tier. I haven't quite decided if I want to put Rodgers in tier 1 with Brees, Manning, and Brady, or this tier with these guys. I've been a bit back and forth on that, but Schaub I'd lump in with Romo and Eli but certainly not ahead.


He's a talented QB, I'll just leave it at that, he does tend to get overrated at times due to fantasy football but he is good.

TACKLE
07-28-2010, 05:27 PM
It's way way too hard and complicated to rank QB's one by one, you need to use tiers. I have Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo with no particuliar order at that point. I also have Rivers in that same tier. I haven't quite decided if I want to put Rodgers in tier 1 with Brees, Manning, and Brady, or this tier with these guys. I've been a bit back and forth on that, but Schaub I'd lump in with Romo and Eli but certainly not ahead.


He's a talented QB, I'll just leave it at that, he does tend to get overrated at times due to fantasy football but he is good.

I definitely agree about ranking players in tiers is a much more effective and logical ranking system opposed ranking them one by one.


If I had to tier the QB's it would look something like this...

Tier 1
Manning
Brees
Brady
Rivers

Tier 2
Rodgers
Favre
Roethlisberger

Tier 3
Romo
Schaub
McNabb
Palmer
Eli

Tier 4
Ryan
Flacco

Rosebud
07-29-2010, 11:08 AM
Personally I wouldn't take any of those Quarterbacks over him. I think Ben Roethlisberger is a very good Quarterback, but vastly overated as well. In the same vein as Eli Manning. Because they won Superbowls with really good defences does not make them outstanding Quarterbacks. Eli is a decent starter with nothing special about him. Matty Ice has had one good season followed by one not so good season. Romo is consistently inconsistent.

Eli is just a decent starter? Didn't watch him carry a beaten up gmen team to 8-8 without being able to step into his throws last year did you. Our D was pathetic, our OL and running game fell apart, our young receivers were inconsistent and eli had a break in one foot and plantar facitis (spl?) in the other, yet we still matched the Texans record last year in just as tough of a division. I don't mind people who don't consider Eli a near elite QB, but to say there's nothing special about him is to ignore the fact that he's one of the best late game QBs in the NFL. And romo's consistently inconsistent? What is this 2007?

Holy ****,

1. There are few people in this thread arguing for Schaub.

2. None of them are using the fantasy stats as a reason for his ranking.

3. How the **** do you think QBs get points in fantasy football?

4. Eli Manning was living off his defensive line.

5. I've seen Romo make enough bonehead throws to not trust him.

6. Schaub-Romo-Manning are probably pretty equally ranked in the grand scheme of things and Schaub is my personal preference.

7. Not everyone slurp a derps the NFC East.

Eli Manning living off of the DL? Again you should check your calendar and realize this is no longer 2007.

I just don't see other than the numbers what makes Schaub a top ten QB, and even in this thread although he isn't being called top 5, he's getting mentioned right behind that top 5 of Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers and Rodgers. He's been injury prone, actually missing time due to injuries, I haven't seen him take over games late the way Eli does and I've just seen too many throws that were bailed out by a great receiver the way people used to criticize Eli for throwing up some passes that would've been in complete if it hadn't been Plax that was going up to get them.

PoopSandwich
07-29-2010, 11:10 AM
Schaub is the newest king of garbage time statistics.)

Texans played alot of close games and Schaub was the one with Andre Johnson constantly bringing them back into games.

Splat
07-29-2010, 11:22 AM
I have Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo with no particuliar order at that point. I also have Rivers in that same tier.


Going to disagree.

After the big 3 Rivers starts the list of the next group of QB's, he is without a doubt atleast to me better then Schaub,Eli and Romo.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
07-29-2010, 01:33 PM
Having the best WR in the game is what makes him good. The Texans finally had a decent OL that kept him off of the ground. A lot of it is the fantasy numbers because Houston has a horrible running game so the team passes the ball a lot. He also has Owen Daniels as well as AJ.

Yea aaron rodgers is hurting when he has to throw to donald driver, jermichael finley, and greg jennings, how does he manage? Daniels played half the season. A wide receiver can't take all the credit for making his QB look good. Plug in sage rosenfels as the starter and we wouldn't be talking about AJ as the best receiver in football.

yourfavestoner
07-29-2010, 01:44 PM
Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.

scottyboy
07-29-2010, 02:24 PM
the funniest thing is that if the Giants had ANY semblance of a defense last year and made the playoffs, people would start realizing how good Eli is and how good a year he had last year. Instead, the D gives up a million points a game, Giants go 8-8, miss the playoffs and Eli's outstanding year with the most unproven group of WR's and no ground game got over looked. Everyone said the biggest weakness for the Giants last year was the inexperienced WR corps and Eli was still outstanding.

And we all know, how me, a well...fairly large homer should feel about Tony Romo...but yea I think I would take Romo over Schaub. and I'm a pretty big Schaub fan. Actually, they're all pretty even, Eli, Romo, and Schaub. Top 5 for Schaub? that's silly. mainly i'm peeved at these feeble and assinine shots at Eli (and some at Romo) as why Schaub is vastly superior.

Brent
07-29-2010, 02:44 PM
Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.
when you're as reserved and quiet as he is, it's hard for people to hype you

Mr.Regular
07-29-2010, 05:09 PM
I agree Eli is insanely underrated. Definitely better than Schaub. After the big 3, Rivers, Rodgers, and probably Favre, Eli could be in the discussion.
He had his best year last year and no one noticed. He plays in an insanely difficult environment (as was noted). He has a Peyton like calm and his field vision is very good. Plus I know the argument is cliche, but he did win a Super Bowl...and that was no ordinary Super Bowl. Guy was clutch, and handled the pressure. He's done it all now, just needs to get more respect.

Rosebud
07-29-2010, 05:10 PM
Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.

Why even add the on this board? Only place he gets any sort of hype is with giants fans and homers. It's not just the weather either, as BBD loves to point out where one of the only teams that still runs a lot of I-formation and we run the ball more than almost any other team that has a franchise QB, not sure on the exact numbers but we're up there. Eli's stats will never be as good as Eli is, so he'll never get the respect he deserves from people who don't watch him regularly. I've always been a believer but a know a lot of Giants fans where even dis-missing him before that superbowl run when he had shown that he can take over games when he had to going all the way back to his first year as a starter when he beat the Broncos in week two.

the funniest thing is that if the Giants had ANY semblance of a defense last year and made the playoffs, people would start realizing how good Eli is and how good a year he had last year. Instead, the D gives up a million points a game, Giants go 8-8, miss the playoffs and Eli's outstanding year with the most unproven group of WR's and no ground game got over looked. Everyone said the biggest weakness for the Giants last year was the inexperienced WR corps and Eli was still outstanding.

And we all know, how me, a well...fairly large homer should feel about Tony Romo...but yea I think I would take Romo over Schaub. and I'm a pretty big Schaub fan. Actually, they're all pretty even, Eli, Romo, and Schaub. Top 5 for Schaub? that's silly. mainly i'm peeved at these feeble and assinine shots at Eli (and some at Romo) as why Schaub is vastly superior.

Hell if Eli had just been healthy all year and didn't have those 4-5 weeks where he couldn't step into throws we would've still made the playoffs despite the pathetic D, that straight up quit on Sheridan, running game that was decimated by injuries along the OL and RB corps, and those young WRs. Eli's definitely in that second tier of QBs and I love having him, he's the exact type of athlete I love to root for, constantly under-rated but always manages to give his team a chance to win.

As for Romo he's just too good of a person and QB for even me as a giants fan to hate on. I have no gripes putting Schaub in the same tier as Eli and Romo, he's put up big numbers on a talented offense that relied on him heavily, but what irks me is how a lot fo the QB rankings on here go Manning, Brees, Brady (those 3 moving around), Rivers, Rodgers, Schaub, etc. He's not as good as Rivers and although Rodgers has also become over-rated on here, he's not on par with any of the top 4, I do think he's still a click above Schaub.

My personal QB rankings go
Tier 1
Peyton
Brady
Brees
All 3 are very close and depending on when you ask me they'll swap places with one another.

Tier 2
Rivers

He's overcoming Norv Turner and some good luck away from adding the ring that'll put him in that top tier

Tier 3
Eli
Romo
Rodgers
Favre
Schaub
Big Ben

These guys also switch spots and if Rodgers has the year everyone's expecting he should be at the top and could even join Rivers in the ring away from Elite category. But Eli was phenomenal last year despite everything that happened and Romo's a guy who's just kept improving his game, Favre's going to **** the bed, but he's a regular season stud, Schaub's shown he can put up points which is all you can ask a QB to do if he has a defense that can protect the lead and Big Ben's come through in the clutch so many times for Pittsburgh that despite being a ******** man child "huck em...chuck em...football!" he's worth putting in this category.

when you're as reserved and quiet as he is, it's hard for people to hype you

That and his under-whelming stats, the chargers thing from when he was drafted and that he's the QB of a NY team. There's a lot working against Eli getting the kind of hype and love he deserves. That said I don't mind, I love him and wouldn't trade him for any QB in the league because he's not only a great QB when he takes over, but he's got a great feel for when he needs to take things in his own hands and when to let the running game pound away, he's remarkably tough as he's played through some ridiculous injuries that would have to be exaggerated if I hadn't heard about them from people who know and he's proof that "clutchness" exists.

OzTitan
07-29-2010, 11:51 PM
Schaub is a good but a somewhat frustrating QB for Texans fans I'm sure. He's close to being elite, but he lacks that essential late game/clutch ability that an elite QB needs. He's also quite injury prone. Every sack or hit, Texans fans have got to be holding their breath.

It's not too late for him to develop the clutch ability and put injury behind him for good, but if he doesn't start quick he might not be a fixture for much longer in Houston. It would be a tough move because he doesn't suck, he just might not have what it takes to be truely valuable for them.

Usually QBs who put up these numbers are going to come through enough here and there to remain the starter until their game totally slips away, but Schuab seems to be just a little too short in this regard and the Texans might jump on another opportunity if one comes along. 2010 will be a key season for him.

Ness
07-30-2010, 12:24 AM
Schaub is a good but a somewhat frustrating QB for Texans fans I'm sure. He's close to being elite, but he lacks that essential late game/clutch ability that an elite QB needs. He's also quite injury prone. Every sack or hit, Texans fans have got to be holding their breath.

It's not too late for him to develop the clutch ability and put injury behind him for good, but if he doesn't start quick he might not be a fixture for much longer in Houston. It would be a tough move because he doesn't suck, he just might not have what it takes to be truely valuable for them.

Usually QBs who put up these numbers are going to come through enough here and there to remain the starter until their game totally slips away, but Schuab seems to be just a little too short in this regard and the Texans might jump on another opportunity if one comes along. 2010 will be a key season for him.
It's going to be difficult to replace Matt Schaub. I really don't see why they would. He's not the problem in Houston. It's the defense and run game.

griff122
07-30-2010, 01:27 PM
Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?

nepg
07-30-2010, 01:50 PM
My rankings in the other thread were for AFTER this season is played. I put him over Eli and Romo because I was choosing who I wanted going forward. I wasn't ranking previous accomplishments.

For all the people saying he is only good because of Andre Johnson what do you want him to do? Not throw it to him? How is that even relevant. Manning had Harrison, Wayne, Clark. Just because a QB has an All Pro WR you can't hold it against him. Tom Brady should try playing with scrubs and see what numbers he puts up, OH WAIT THEY TRIED THAT AND IT FAILED. The next year they got Welker, Moss and look what happened.
Fail? Brady won 3 Super Bowls with scrubs. Ya, in 2007, they went into "F-U" mode, but I wouldn't say "fail" when the guy has 3 rings throwing to garbage.

As for Schaub...I'm on the fence. Ya, he has Andre and Daniels is good, but he's got nothing outside of those two. It's amazing that he was able to put up those yardage numbers with literally crap outside of those two targets.

But it's tough to tell how good the guy really is. Remember, this is the same system that made Jake Plummer and Brian Griese (and Jay Cutler) Pro Bowlers. I want to see him do it again and stop getting injured before I even rank the guy, to be honest. It wasn't that long ago that we were talking about them drafting a QB to replace him, and not long before that that Sage Rosenfels was threatening his job as the starter.

Ness
07-30-2010, 01:58 PM
As for Schaub...I'm on the fence. Ya, he has Andre and Daniels is good, but he's got nothing outside of those two. It's amazing that he was able to put up those yardage numbers with literally crap outside of those two targets.
Kevin Walter is a good second receiver.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-30-2010, 02:29 PM
except that we were talking about JUST THAT after 2008 when rosenfels started 1/3 of the games. shockingly, his numbers in those 5/6 games (41/505/3) add up to right around 1/3 of his season totals. meaning he experienced nearly no drop off, whether schaub or rosenfels was starting.

Seems like it's entirely beside the point of the thread, considering Rosenfels turned the ball over 12 times in those six games he played, didn't manage a winning record in his starts, and simply didn't manage the offense as well.

Anyone can throw the ball to Andre Johnson, but to act like that's all Schaub does to post his numbers is to reveal that you've not watched nearly enough of the Texans.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-30-2010, 03:05 PM
Sorry, I was speaking more generally to the direction of the thread and not as much towards you.

Rosebud
07-30-2010, 03:36 PM
Sorry, I was speaking more generally to the direction of the thread and not as much towards you.

I didn't mean to imply that Schaub is only successful because of AJ, I just haven't been sold on him yet as a near elite QB, probably because I haven't watched him enough. From what I have seen he's not as good as his numbers, which are fantastic, but IMO are over-inflated because he's asked to throw so much since that's where their best talent is. I'm not saying he isn't a good QB or even a top 10 QB (see my rankings further up the page), I was just hoping someone who's seen him play a lot more than me could break down his play and convince me that he's a near elite QB so that when I watch the Texans this year I know what to be looking for. Plus I've got a buddy who's a texans fan so I'm probably going to be betting on their games fairly regularly with him so a little research doesn't hurt.

jayceheathman
07-31-2010, 12:38 AM
Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?

If Schaub was clutch then the game wouldnt be down to a field goal.

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 06:45 AM
I like Schaub. I have him as a top 10 guy.

He reminds me an awful lot of Phillip Rivers when you evaluate his skill set. When you look at the #s both qbs put up, they are awfully similar. And Rivers has better weapons than Schaub.

Now of course #s don't tell the whole story, so I won't use that as the main basis of my argument, but when you evaluate them they are very similar.

Same arm strength (draw), similar accuracy (slight nod to Rivers), similar pocket presence but Schaub is more mobile (nod to Schaub), presnap adjustments are the same (draw), both do a good job of identifying hot routes (draw), both do a good job making reads and anticipating routes (slight nod to Rivers), etc.

They're very close as players. Which goes back to why I don't get why they are viewed so differently by so many people. Schaub is a slightly less accurate but more mobile version of Phillip Rivers. Just watch them play. Watch them play, then tell me that they aren't almost identical as players. Same quick release, same everything. They are very similar players.

I will say this though, Rivers is clearly the more clutch qb. And he's more proven as well, and yes, that does count for something.

I don't want to hear about how Schaub has Andre Johnson. Give me a better reason than that. So does Peyton suck bc he has Wayne, Clark, Addai, Garcon, and Collie? Does Brady suck bc he has Randy Moss? Rivers with Gates and VJax? Romo with Austin, Witten, and now Dez?

Schaub is legit. He's better than Matt Ryan (for now), who has been very prematurely annointed as the next Peyton Manning by the media.

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 06:49 AM
Eli is still so ridiculously underrated on this board.

I wonder how guys like Rogers, Rivers, and Scaub would deal with playing in the Meadowlands. There's a reason why Eli is statistically better on the road than at home.

I'm interested to see how passing games fare at the new Meadowlands this winter.

I don't waste my time arguing it anymore. It's pretty clear to me that when it comes to Eli, people who hate him will always hate him and find new excuses to hate him (even though Eli's pretty much shot down just about every knock that people have made of him over the years), and those that like him will always like him. There's no medium with Eli.

Brent
07-31-2010, 11:13 AM
take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example
I watched this, but the thing that stood out to me was how ridiculous Andre Johnson was in that game.

Brent
07-31-2010, 11:24 AM
makes me wonder how different the world would be if the lions had taken him instead of rogers.
probably not much different

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 12:26 PM
i just finished watching a bunch of schaub highlights and i think you're missing something between rivers and schaub that causes some off the differentiation. i've seen rivers make some 'wow' throws. i have never seen schaub make a wow throw. i couldn't find a good example of what i mean by that for rivers, but take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example. there isn't a throw schaub makes that a starting nfl qb shouldn't make every single time. that doesn't mean i think he's worse, he still made all of the throws, but there's nothing there that's going to elevate my perception of him.

that said, if you ignore some of the little quirks in throwing motion, then you're absolutely right: every ball either throws looks remarkably similar.

What in particular do you mean by wow throw? Because if you're talking about a throw that was bulleted in between 3 defenders with pinpoint velocity, I don't think you'll see that from either of these guys. Neither of them have the arm strength to make what I interpret as a wow throw (see Brett Favre, Jay Cutler).

Now, if you mean a deadly accurate ball that was put in the breadbasket with perfectly timed anticipation, then yes, Rivers does that quite a bit. He's probably the most accurate qb in the league, and that is one distinguishing characteristic between him and Schaub. To be fair though, I think Schaub is pretty accurate himself. He's not inaccurate, let's put it that way. He's got plenty of accuracy to make all the throws, as you have pointed out.

Contrarily however, Schaub has more mobility than Rivers. And that's another difference, but this one favors Schaub. Again, to be fair, their pocket presence is a draw. Schaub is more mobile, but his presence in the pocket is almost identical to Rivers.

Which all goes back to me saying that Schaub is a less accurate but more mobile version of Rivers.

Even their numbers are relatively the same by comparison. The release is somewhat different, but both snap the ball out quickly and almost at the same release point as well.

They really are very similar, to me, the main difference being Rivers being the superior qb in the 2 minute drill.

BeerBaron
07-31-2010, 12:39 PM
What in particular do you mean by wow throw? Because if you're talking about a throw that was bulleted in between 3 defenders with pinpoint velocity, I don't think you'll see that from either of these guys. Neither of them have the arm strength to make what I interpret as a wow throw (see Brett Favre, Jay Cutler).


I'm glad there are a few non-fans who can look past the picks and see that he can make some damn fine throws. After a few years of watching Kyle Orton's dead ducks beyond 20 yards, the very first game I watched with Cutler blew me away with just how awesome of an arm he's got.

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 12:45 PM
I'm glad there are a few non-fans who can look past the picks and see that he can make some damn fine throws. After a few years of watching Kyle Orton's dead ducks beyond 20 yards, the very first game I watched with Cutler blew me away with just how awesome of an arm he's got.

I'm a Jay Cutler fan. I think in the right environment, he can thrive and reestablish himself as a top 10 qb in this league.

Having that said, Cutler threads the needle way too much for his own good, and it got exposed this year with his INT totals. He needs to do a better job of looking off defenders.

But I think he'll get there. I don't know if Martz was the right guy to be his OC in Chicago, but I think Cutler will eventually get back to form once they put more talent around him.

If Lovie gets fired and Gary Kubiak gets fired, Chicago needs to take a long hard look at Kubiak.

Ness
07-31-2010, 12:55 PM
If Schaub was clutch then the game wouldnt be down to a field goal.

Then Tom Brady shouldn't get credit for being clutch then in a lot of his wins. Especially in the playoffs where a lot of his "clutch moments" have come down to an Adam Vinatieri field goal. I know this discussion isn't about Tom Brady, but you can't really fault Matt Schaub for playing his role. If his kicker misses a field goal, especially one that is a chip shot, it doesn't mean that Schaub hasn't done his job by putting his team in a spot to win the ball game.

i just finished watching a bunch of schaub highlights and i think you're missing something between rivers and schaub that causes some off the differentiation. i've seen rivers make some 'wow' throws. i have never seen schaub make a wow throw. i couldn't find a good example of what i mean by that for rivers, but take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvCxmhlUxQ for example. there isn't a throw schaub makes that a starting nfl qb shouldn't make every single time. that doesn't mean i think he's worse, he still made all of the throws, but there's nothing there that's going to elevate my perception of him.

that said, if you ignore some of the little quirks in throwing motion, then you're absolutely right: every ball either throws looks remarkably similar.

I disagree. Schaub is a lot more accurate than a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL. If most quarterbacks could throw the ball like Matt Schaub does, then it would be easier to find a franchise signal caller. That pass to Andre Davis down the middle between three defenders is not something a lot of starters in this league can make. Even if they could, a quarterback's instincts and quick decision making aren't something that can always be coached in my opinion. The "it" factor if you will. Schaub has that trait.

Shane P. Hallam
07-31-2010, 01:06 PM
Schaub is a Top Ten QB, no doubt. At this point, I'd probably put him 6th on my list. As has been stated, he has poise, accuracy, mobility to get it done.

One of the things I do like about Schaub is his decision making ability. It's not Peyton Manning, but he makes very good decisions. People talk about Andre Johnson making him what he is, but Schaub knows when to throw to Andre and what he can do, what balls he can get, and coverages he can beat. Look early last year, Schaub utilized Owen Daniels almost more than Johnson. He knows who to get the ball to and when, and that is an underrated quality.

I loved Schaub when he came out of school, and on the Falcons, this hasn't changed.

Ness
07-31-2010, 01:44 PM
Schaub is a Top Ten QB, no doubt. At this point, I'd probably put him 6th on my list. As has been stated, he has poise, accuracy, mobility to get it done.

One of the things I do like about Schaub is his decision making ability. It's not Peyton Manning, but he makes very good decisions. People talk about Andre Johnson making him what he is, but Schaub knows when to throw to Andre and what he can do, what balls he can get, and coverages he can beat. Look early last year, Schaub utilized Owen Daniels almost more than Johnson. He knows who to get the ball to and when, and that is an underrated quality.

I loved Schaub when he came out of school, and on the Falcons, this hasn't changed.

That might actually be a good thing if Houston gets to the playoffs.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 01:46 PM
They really are very similar, to me, the main difference being Rivers being the superior qb in the 2 minute drill.

This is basically what it comes down to. I would have said that the difference between Schaub and Rivers prior to the 2009 season was basically nil, but Rivers showed a lot with his late game performances down the stretch for San Diego.

In general, I think the difference in the "wow throw" category comes down partially to the fact that when it comes to pass deep to a receivers back shoulder, Rivers has to throw it a lot closer to the defensive back. Jackson and Floyd aren't generating the kid of space that Johnson creates, and neither are quite as good at that last second contact then separation before the catch as AJ is.

Ness
07-31-2010, 01:50 PM
and maybe that's true. i'm still trying to catch up on some highlights, but from what i've seen to this point, he hasn't made a throw that i don't think 70% of the rest of the nfl couldn't have made. that said, he's seemed to make that throw every single time, which *would* distinguish him from most other nfl qbs. again, i'm not suggesting that it's a negative, just that i haven't seen anything special. if you have a youtube that you think is a particularly good example of throws most other guys couldn't make, other than the one i think we disagree on, i'd love to see it.

Eh, I could care less about the "wow" throws. Aarron Brooks made a boatload of those when he was with New Orleans, but his decision making was inconsistent. And those go hand in hand.

Schaub gets the job done and that is what matters. He has a lot of velocity on his ball and the spiral is usually nice as well. And he's pretty accurate. One throw I don't think a lot of quarterbacks can consistently make is that throw to Andre Davis between three defenders that was on the highlight reel you showcased. I can't picture someone like David Garrard or Troy Edwards making that throw.

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 01:56 PM
and maybe that's true. i'm still trying to catch up on some highlights, but from what i've seen to this point, he hasn't made a throw that i don't think 70% of the rest of the nfl couldn't have made. that said, he's seemed to make that throw every single time, which *would* distinguish him from most other nfl qbs. again, i'm not suggesting that it's a negative, just that i haven't seen anything special. if you have a youtube that you think is a particularly good example of throws most other guys couldn't make, other than the one i think we disagree on, i'd love to see it.



is this really any different than any other big arm qb? elway did it, favre did it... not suggesting cutler is a future hall of famer, but i think it gets overblown way too much (not that i think you're doing that).



for schaub/rivers, this is exactly what i mean. off the top of my head, i remember a couple of rivers throws in the senior bowl and in his last bowl game at nc state (yes, college, not nfl, i know, but it's all that's coming to mind) that were just incredible, pinpoint passes. i don't think i've seen a similar throw from schaub that left my jaw hanging. again, not a bad thing and not indicative that he's a bad qb, but i think if he had some of those moments, more people would rate him higher or at least as high.

Cutler: it does get overblown too much. It's still something he should work on, especially after seeing him force so many throws last year. I think a big reason for that was bc he lacked talent to work with and for every wow throw he made, law of averages tells you he's gonna throw that pick too if you force it too much, which he did last year. I think he did it bc he was trying to make diamonds out of dog youknowwhat.

I've seen Schaub put it in some spots that made me say wow. Not as regularly as Rivers, but he does it.

This is basically what it comes down to. I would have said that the difference between Schaub and Rivers prior to the 2009 season was basically nil, but Rivers showed a lot with his late game performances down the stretch for San Diego.

In general, I think the difference in the "wow throw" category comes down partially to the fact that when it comes to pass deep to a receivers back shoulder, Rivers has to throw it a lot closer to the defensive back. Jackson and Floyd aren't generating the kid of space that Johnson creates, and neither are quite as good at that last second contact then separation before the catch as AJ is.[/b]

The opposite end of that spectrum is bc Rivers has such huge targets, he just has to throw it up there and let them get it. I've seen him do this quite a bit, and he admitted himself that when he sees his guys in single coverage, he just throws it deep down the field and let's them make a play (there's nothing wrong with that btw). AJ Smith knows River's limitations (physically), that's why he drafts such big targets. Every single guy on that roster is huge. And Turner's scheme is perfect for Rivers as well. Give the organization credit, they identified the perfect scheme for their qb and the type of WR he needs. That's good scouting.

So I don't know if you can count that for or against either guy.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 02:04 PM
So I don't know if you can count that for or against either guy.

I hope that's not how my statement came across.

I was just implicating that the Chargers deep pass attack tends to make the throws look more exciting because Jackson and Floyd use their height and jumping to make catches over defensive backs. Meanwhile, the Texans deep pass attack tends to make things look a tad bit easier because, while Andre Johnson could be making those catches like Jackson and Floyd do, he has the speed to create real space.

Both quarterback benefit hugely from the size of their targets, but Schaub doesn't have to throw as many balls near defensive backs because he can lead Johnson so much. I wasn't trying to knock either offensive system. In fact, I love what the Chargers have done from a conceptual standpoint (which is hard for me to admit).

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 02:09 PM
I hope that's not how my statement came across.

I was just implicating that the Chargers deep pass attack tends to make the throws look more exciting because Jackson and Floyd use their height and jumping to make catches over defensive backs. Meanwhile, the Texans deep pass attack tends to make things look a tad bit easier because, while Andre Johnson could be making those catches like Jackson and Floyd do, he has the speed to create real space.

Both quarterback benefit hugely from the size of their targets, but Schaub doesn't have to throw as many balls near defensive backs because he can lead Johnson so much. I wasn't trying to knock either offensive system. In fact, I love what the Chargers have done form a conceptual standpoint (which is hard for me to admit).

Oh ok, I understand now.

Yeah, I agree, I love what the Chargers have done conceptually on offense. I think they have potentially the most dangerous passing attack in the league, for the simple fact that, how do you cover them all? You can't draw up schemes to cover size. If you blitz, that lives 1 big guy in single coverage in a hot route, and that's very tough to cover no matter how talented your defense is.

And if you sit back, you give them ample time to run those deep routes, isolate DBs, and play jumpball.

And if you drop everyone back to take all of that away, you give Rivers a nice checkdown in Sproles, who can generate tons of yac in space bc the WRs cleared out the underneath for him to make people miss.

It's a great scheme. I still stand by my beilef that they made a huge mistake passing on Dez Bryant in this draft. If you added Dez to that core with Jackson and Gates in that vertical scheme that uses size to its advantage, I think they would have easily been the best offense in the league.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 02:23 PM
I think part of the issue for San Diego is how much they've struggled to keep ball-control. Sure, they crank out yardage in the passing game like it's nothing, but since Tomlinson fell off, they've struggled to keep their defense off the field. Their system back when Tomlinson and Turner were around was perhaps better fitting to the team, because they could hold the ball for a long time and when they got the lead and the other offense was forced to pass, their pass rush took over.

I love the Chargers offense, but I also get that with a defense that is something less than brilliant even if Merriman has a nice year, being able to hold onto the ball and extend your possession time needs to be a huge priority. In regards to the Dez Bryant thing, I sort of see where you're coming at, but I imagine it hinges entirely on your attitude towards Ryan Mathews. I happen to think the Matthews pick was great, that he's going to be a great player, and that it does a lot more towards improving the playoffs chances than maximizing one aspect of the team would.

And yes, admitting all this about the Chargers slowly kills me inside. I can only hope that this year is a good one for Oakland and that they can make a huge step towards winning the division down the road, but I think the Chargers, if that offense can achieve balance and that defense takes just a small step forward, will probably be the best team in the AFC. They've been my Superbowl choice for months now.


Side note:
With all this talk of the size of the Chargers and the stretching of the defense they attain, how long will it be before we start seeing an emphasis on bigger defensive backs? This would have to start young, with colleges placing athletes at corner or safety instead of wide receiver, but the size difference in that matchup has been skewed in favor of wide receivers for a long time now. Teams should be placing a premium on having a guy who can protect the deep ball without having an insane vertical, but instead through size and strength. Right now there's a lack of options there, but maybe Robert Sands can turn out to be the guy I thought Taylor Mays could have been to help set this in motion.

bigbluedefense
07-31-2010, 02:31 PM
Yeah, one of the main reasons why I thought Dez would have been a much better pick is bc I view Dez as a stud, and I view Mathews as a run of the mill RB.

Mathews to me is Matt Forte. Does everything well, but nothing great. I feel you can find those kind of backs at any point in the draft. I definitely don't see Mathews as a guy worthy of a top 12 pick. No way.

I understand the need for a RB, I just don't understand moving up to take Ryan Mathews. He is not worth what they gave up for him.

As for bigger CBs, I don't know if that will be a trend. Ideally, you want a bigger CB with speed to boot, it's just hard finding them. And with the rule changes, a CB without speed is as useful as a typewriter.

CBs as a whole have become more valuable than they already are. We just saw a draft where teams reached for CBs early because with teams running 3 WRs so often nowadays, having 3 good CBs is not a luxury anymore, its a necessity.

Ness
07-31-2010, 03:50 PM
that's a horrific analogy, bordering on strawman.

Disagree completely.



and no one's talking about either of them as anything more than bottom 5 starters in the league. but it's just not, imo, a 'special' throw that only a few guys could've made. it was a pass that most nfl quarterbacks should make the majority of the time. but again, my argument was to the perception of schaub not being a top qb, not to whether or not he actually is.

I think only a handful of quarterbacks are going to be able to make that throw on a consistent basis. And those are the ones that are very precise in their throws. I think that is what separates the respectable starters from the rest of the other quarterbacks in the NFL. I disagree that that throw in particular is a throw that most quarterbacks should be able to make. Because most don't. At least not on Sundays...unless you're one of the top dogs in the NFL at QB.

Brent
07-31-2010, 05:22 PM
With all this talk of the size of the Chargers and the stretching of the defense they attain, how long will it be before we start seeing an emphasis on bigger defensive backs? This would have to start young, with colleges placing athletes at corner or safety instead of wide receiver, but the size difference in that matchup has been skewed in favor of wide receivers for a long time now. Teams should be placing a premium on having a guy who can protect the deep ball without having an insane vertical, but instead through size and strength. Right now there's a lack of options there, but maybe Robert Sands can turn out to be the guy I thought Taylor Mays could have been to help set this in motion.
If I could find a guy that was potentially a "big CB" I would wager that he hit a spurt in college, because guys that are fast and big in HS end up playing LB.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 06:17 PM
If I could find a guy that was potentially a "big CB" I would wager that he hit a spurt in college, because guys that are fast and big in HS end up playing LB.

I was more refering to height rather than bulk, so maybe Mays was a bad example. I just see a lot of tall athletes go into college labeled as DB's or ATH's and they almost uniformly become wide receivers so long as they have decent hands. I'm just curious if that will shift at some point when a team keeps those guys at corner or safety and try to build a truly dominant pass defense. That said, we'd have to see someone defy that conventional wisdom first.

MetSox17
07-31-2010, 06:38 PM
What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 06:46 PM
What kinda height are we talking about here? I think after 6'1, your height starts becoming a detriment at the CB position. Your reflexes and agility needs to be at a much higher level compared to WRs, because you're reacting to the what the player you're defending is doing. Not to mention that tackling would be more difficult, as if it wasn't already for CBs. I just don't like the idea at all of having a 6'3 corner. What for? Most guys aren't left 1 on 1 anyway, have him play safety if you really like his physical abilities.

Because the way NFL offenses are heading, guys are left 1 on 1 more and more as offenses load the field with receivers.

I think you can find a benefit for taking a guy with safety size at corner (like, say, Asomugha), but when it comes to trying to stop 6-5 sprinters, it's obvious that most of the league is completely ill-prepared.

MetSox17
07-31-2010, 07:08 PM
Asomugha is a very rare exception, and even then he's not huge, compared to Calvin Johnson and Vincent Jackson and guys like that. I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with. Good work ethic and technique at the corner position will allow you to succeed even if you're shorter than average and have just decent speed.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 07:14 PM
I still don't like the idea. I think schools need to focus more on disciplining their players and keep them away from the diva mentality they're raised with.

Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.

MetSox17
07-31-2010, 07:24 PM
Okay then? I have no idea what that has to do with what I posted.

Good technique and work ethic will not help you get to a ball flying in from above over a man who is 5-6" taller than you, can out-jump you, and outweighs you by twenty pounds. This is proven time and time again by the dominance being shown by recievers that have that much of a size advantage against corners.

I'm not saying fit a square peg in a round hole. I am saying that there are wide receivers playing today who would have probably made for dominant cornerbacks if they had been playing the position since the start of college and would have been able to legitimately stop the toss-up deep pass attacks that are gaining momentum in the NFL.

I said that in response to you mentioning that CFB coaches should start recruiting taller players to play the CB position.

How many situations is there in a game where two players are completely even as far as positioning deep down field? Maybe once a game? Twice? Even then, it's a dog fight for the ball. If a CB has better positioning on a WR, it's not like he can just catapult himself off the defender and go up for the ball. I just don't see how it would make such a huge difference that you would need to do something as drastic as changing recruiting, or how you decide who plays what position.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 08:27 PM
And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.

BigDawg819
07-31-2010, 10:21 PM
And how much does a completion down the field effect the course of a game? Immensly. And, yes, if you're big and have tremendous ball awarness like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, or Larry Fitzgerald, you can catapult over defensive backs who are in good position. It happens all the time and these guys make their living doing it.

I'm suggesting that instead of universally putting all of your tall and fast players at wideout, it might be beneficial to put one or two at corner. The way the passing game is growing in the NFL, it will only raise the value of a good pass defense.

Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 10:29 PM
Not really because the rules work totally in favor of wide outs and basically handcuff corners to ridiculous extremes. Corners need instincts, timing, speed, quickness, and a pass rush. Height is something that can help, but not a requirement.

I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

BigDawg819
07-31-2010, 10:33 PM
I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

With that mentality Yao Ming should be the most dominate player in the NBA because he's the tallest

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

Really because I don't recall their White House visits over the years?

Yes their wideouts have more advantages in size, but they get shut down in crunch times by good defensive play in the playoffs.

BigDawg819
07-31-2010, 10:34 PM
I actually disagree. With the current rules, it's harder and harder to blanket a guy without playing the ball and not draw a foul, but that should actually increase the amount of importance placed on size and ball skills. If you put a couple large cornerbacks out there with real wide receiver skills, they could majorly silence quite a few of the deep pass attacks in the NFL.

The only reason NFL offenses like the Chargers have so much success is becasuse tossing it up isn't much of a risk when all your receivers are almost assured to be able to touch the ball before a defensive back can. All a smaller defender can do in that situation is try and disrupt a receivers concentration. Increase the risk of a turnover and that all changes.

Smart corners make this happen along with a pass rush. If the QB is on the ground he's not throwing the ball.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 10:43 PM
With that mentality Yao Ming should be the most dominate player in the NBA because he's the tallest.

This isn't even vaguely related to what I said. Read it again.

Really because I don't recall their White House visits over the years?

Yes their wideouts have more advantages in size, but they get shut down in crunch times by good defensive play in the playoffs.

This is also completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.

Smart corners make this happen along with a pass rush. If the QB is on the ground he's not throwing the ball.

Smart is a meaningless adjective here, so unless you'd like to extrapolate, I'm going to ignore that.

Bringing pass rush into this makes no sense, since all I'm talking about it a changing of the ideal physical requirements for a cornerback to match the rather amazing shift in the size of NFL wide receivers. But, even given that, a pass rush does not stop the ball from being thrown deep. If it did, then you'd be able to show me a defense that didn't surrender any deep completions last year. I'm going to assume that won't happen.

So that's pretty much strike three on strawman arguments. Thanks for playing.

Shiver
07-31-2010, 10:47 PM
I like Schaub a lot, but unfortunately there is a glut of Quarterbacks with a resume/physical tool-set similar to his own. I would put him 8th on my personal list (I am on a Brett Favre strike so he doesn't count).

BigDawg819
07-31-2010, 10:48 PM
This isn't even vaguely related to what I said. Read it again.



This is also completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.



Smart is a meaningless adjective here, so unless you'd like to extrapolate, I'm going to ignore that.

Bringing pass rush into this makes no sense, since all I'm talking about it a changing of the ideal physical requirements for a cornerback to match the rather amazing shift in the size of NFL wide receivers. But, even given that, a pass rush does not stop the ball from being thrown deep. If it did, then you'd be able to show me a defense that didn't surrender any deep completions last year. I'm going to assume that won't happen.

So that's pretty much strike three on strawman arguments. Thanks for playing.

No its you refusing to accept altering theories to your own. Height is an uncontrollable factor, whereas my theory requirements are tangible in and of the fact that they can be accomplished with good coaching and hard work by players of any height.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 10:52 PM
No its you refusing to accept altering theories to your own. Height is an uncontrollable factor, whereas my theory requirements are tangible in and of the fact that they can be accomplished with good coaching and hard work by players of any height.

Where were these theories? You made a vague and stupid reference to height in a different spot altogether, some detrimental argument about my reference to a particular offense that was not at all at the heart of my point, and then a statement about a completely different aspect of football defense than I was refering to. Point out to me the theory in that, please.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that height is uncontrollable and that what you're talking about is tangible. Is height not tangible?

Shiver
07-31-2010, 10:55 PM
The folly of trying to adjust for big receivers, drafting tall corners, is that it will put you in a world of hurt when you play against DeSean Jackson type receivers.

BigDawg819
07-31-2010, 10:57 PM
Where were these theories? You made a vague and stupid reference to height in a different spot altogether, some detrimental argument about my reference to a particular offense that was not at all at the heart of my point, and then a statement about a completely different aspect of football defense than I was refering to. Point out to me the theory in that, please.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that height is uncontrollable and that what you're talking about is tangible. Is height not tangible?

Height is an uncontrollable factor in that it cannot be augmented, taught, or improved.

Instead of making some vague statement that is just at best a passing thought and passing it off as something that resembles a theory, work with something that can be improved upon like a pass rush or coaching.

Paranoidmoonduck
07-31-2010, 11:01 PM
The folly of trying to adjust for big receivers, drafting tall corners, is that it will put you in a world of hurt when you play against DeSean Jackson type receivers.

Isn't that how it always goes though? Some team tries to counter-act some sort of offensive strategy and then some other team capitalizes on the weakness that exposes?

In a world where we recognize lots of different kinds of receivers, specialized for different aspects of an offensive attack, is it that ridiculous to suggest that there'd be a huge demand for having a defensive backfield that was built to be able each and every kind? I'm not suggesting that normal sized or even small cornerbacks are going anywhere, but I am suggesting that in a market where the NFL is saturated in tall wide receivers and basically completely lacking in tall cornerbacks, we could see a movement to change that imbalance.

Is any of that particularly crazy?

Height is an uncontrollable factor in that it cannot be augmented, taught, or improved.

Height can't be augmented, but it can be selected for. By the time a player reaches the NFL, much more of what is going on is selection rather than augmentation.

Instead of making some vague statement that is just at best a passing thought and passing it off as something that resembles a theory, work with something that can be improved upon like a pass rush or coaching.

Okay, two things...

(1) My statements have been anything but vague, although I can't even begin to say the same about your responses.

(2) I never used the phrase theory except in response to your use of it.

What I did do is off-handedly suggest a trend we may see down the road in the NFL. It wasn't even so much as a prediction as a loose hypothesis that was apparently so crazy that it's knocked the thread entirely off course.

Sorry to the OP for taking things another direction. It was not my intention.

Shiver
07-31-2010, 11:10 PM
It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.

Malaka
08-01-2010, 12:31 AM
It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.

Eh, DRC and Sean Smith are the only ones I'd consider "tall".

Davis is 5'11 pretty average for corners and Talib is 6'0/6'1 barely above average for corners. Whereas Smith is 6'3 and DRC is 6'2 with wheels.

OzTitan
08-02-2010, 08:17 AM
Schaub isn't clutch? He isn't the one kicking the fieldgoals. He led the team down for game tieing/winning field goals multiple times only to see the kicker miss them EVERY time. Winning is everything, but you can't say he doesn't perform underpressure. He put the team in a position to win thats all he can do. Is he top 5, no, but what has Rodgers done that puts him above Schaub?

Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I'm not seeing everything Schaub does, but from what I can tell, he hasn't shown this yet. He seems to have the uncanny ability to play QB very well but with as little key moments as possible - you can often summarize the big games that big time QBs play in 2 or 3 plays.

Schaub threw for the 6th most yards in NFL history last with year and that was with two starting guards out, a pro bowl tight end out, and no running game. Also, how is Schaub a product of a system? No one says this about Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or Rivers. Its the West Coast offense. I guess that means Montanna was a product of the system. If the system is so effective then why are QBs coveted so much?

Firstly, I don't think yards are really that big a deal, particularly these days where every year more and more QBs are getting over 4000, and secondly, QBs are coveted so much for those 'wow' moments that decide games that supplement their ability to work in the system. That's the key factor IMO. Sometimes those wow moments are so well timed and executed, the QB doesn't even have to be all that great and consistent in the system.

IMO, Peyton had a similar style to Schaub, but his consistency reached such a high level, and he owned his system so well, that it didn't really matter. If you're that good, you don't need spectacular moments to make the difference (well, I guess one could argue Peyton could have used more of them in the playoffs).

Shane P. Hallam
08-02-2010, 09:36 AM
Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I don't think many people are arguing he is elite though...

Rosebud
08-03-2010, 02:32 PM
Sometimes, elite QBs have to do more than get their team into FG range. That's just how it is. I think njx is touching on the point - where are his wow moments? not just awesome but effectively insignificant plays, but big time, game defining moments that he creates as the QB?

I'm not seeing everything Schaub does, but from what I can tell, he hasn't shown this yet. He seems to have the uncanny ability to play QB very well but with as little key moments as possible - you can often summarize the big games that big time QBs play in 2 or 3 plays.

You're touching on what to me really defines a great QB. Banning often says that it's pointless to compare QBs in different systems because they're asked to do so many different things and in large part I agree with him, but that performance in the clutch to me is the exception. No matter what your system there come points in a season where a QB is depended on to take over the game, move his team down the field and get them the points they need, during this time I think is when we see the true difference between QB's quality shown. It's a huge part of why I love Eli so much, he's really the anti-peyton as he doesn't dominate for most of the game but when it comes down to those game deciding moments he simply takes over.

Ness
08-04-2010, 12:40 AM
Schaub hasn't had any great moments in his career yet. This is true.

Rosebud
08-05-2010, 09:51 PM
Schaub hasn't had any great moments in his career yet. This is true.

That's what I was hoping to find out from this thread. I can tell you that as a giants fan who saw eli play every game we saw that he would be a stud with the game on the line from his first season. There were comeback wins, a strange transcendence where in the last few minutes of a game he became a different QB than he was most of the game, so when he finally clicked and started leading game winning drives against playoff teams we weren't surprised, although we were still exuberant as **** that the D held on. Not seeing Schaub play very often I was curious whether he's had a lot of success at leading and properly timing late, game-deciding drives, whether the defense blows the leads or not.

Ness
08-06-2010, 12:57 AM
That's what I was hoping to find out from this thread. I can tell you that as a giants fan who saw eli play every game we saw that he would be a stud with the game on the line from his first season. There were comeback wins, a strange transcendence where in the last few minutes of a game he became a different QB than he was most of the game, so when he finally clicked and started leading game winning drives against playoff teams we weren't surprised, although we were still exuberant as **** that the D held on. Not seeing Schaub play very often I was curious whether he's had a lot of success at leading and properly timing late, game-deciding drives, whether the defense blows the leads or not.

He's only had one full season under his belt as a starter. And he's still fairly young for a quarterback. I would give the man more time before you throw the hammer on him.

Scotty D
08-06-2010, 01:10 AM
It is already happening, look at the Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Aqib Talib, DRC as recent draft examples.

He isn't the only CB out on the field though, you can adjust the match ups. It's smart to get corners with different traits and there are only so many corners out there with that kind of size and speed (that can play).

Rosebud
08-06-2010, 03:30 AM
He's only had one full season under his belt as a starter. And he's still fairly young for a quarterback. I would give the man more time before you throw the hammer on him.

No doubt, I'm withholding judgement of the guy til I see him more myself, but I think that he's getting a lot of love prematurely. Let's see where he goes from here before we try and dub him top whatever.

datchapin
08-06-2010, 02:05 PM
The dude is not new to the NFL, he's been in the league for six yrs. the fact that it took him six yrs. to play a full season does not say elite to me. The dude had three yrs. to prepare with the Falcons. What other Elite QB had that long of a necessary preparation time? Aaron Rodgers is the only one that comes to mind and even he blew up in his first yr. didn't he, showing flashes of what he was capable of. In his first two yrs. as a starter Schaub was not even clearly the best QB on the team, with alot of people preferring Rosenfels, it took an epic fail by Rosenfels at Indy in 08' to secure Schaubs position and shipping Rosenfels to the Vikings. It's crazy cuz' I'm a Texans fan so I should also be ga-ga for this guy, but I just can't.

Technique, I noticed a few people compare Schaub to Rivers, I'm sorry, that is a horrible comparison. For short to maybe 20 yds. down field Schaubs release is nice and quick, going further down field his technique becomes eratic and his windup becomes longer. In the second Colts game of this yr. this was evidenced clearly when R. Mathis stripped the ball from Schaub at the tail end of his wind-up, a play that would have never happened if Schaubs wind-up and release were consistent.

Then there was the Matt is more mobile and aware in the pocket than rivers. Really? Anybody that watches Matt closely will notice that he doesn't stay on the balls of his feet, the guy plays flatfooted. Speaking of awareness, Schaubs avg. sack time is at 3.8 secs after the snap. Most other QB's avg. sack time comes about a second quicker. This means he has good protection, but he doesn't get rid of the ball quicker. I hate to say this cuz' he's my teams QB, but a good amount of sacks that he took could have been avoided. One last thing is he telegraphs his throw to the flat, twice he was intercepted on the exact same throw once against the Cards and again at the Jags.

Also thanks to our HC's focus on making Schaub a gun-slinger our running game suffered incredibly going from decent on the verge of something special to bottom feeder. Our back-up qb's didn't take any snaps with our offense, if the starter needs that much practice time he should be doing more wow throws on Sundays. Not throw into triple coverage and know where his outlets are.

Back to the mobility thing. In Denver the play action was a very deadly weapon. However with Schaub running that offense not once have they run a designed bootleg run. However one series with Rex Grossman and he gains a first down with a designed bootleg run. Let me repeat myself.. with REX GROSSMAN. The other handicap is that Matt cannot throw across his body while on the move. So while he does the bootleg one side of the field is inaccessible until he stops to set up.

I deal with a ton of my peers jocking him and I get a lot of flack about how I'm not a real fan, but whatever. If I weren't a fan I wouldn't notice these things. It's a good thing I don't have DVR.

Anyways, as a six yr. vet Schaub is a good QB, but to say he's elite or much more than avg. is just not right.

Ness
08-06-2010, 03:03 PM
The dude is not new to the NFL, he's been in the league for six yrs. the fact that it took him six yrs. to play a full season does not say elite to me. The dude had three yrs. to prepare with the Falcons. What other Elite QB had that long of a necessary preparation time?

Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and Troy Aikman all took longer than three years to be good. That is for sure.

datchapin
08-07-2010, 01:51 PM
Steve Young, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, and Troy Aikman all took longer than three years to be good. That is for sure.

Didn't say it took him that long to be good. Took him that long to play a full season. There's a difference.

bigbluedefense
08-07-2010, 04:09 PM
The dude is not new to the NFL, he's been in the league for six yrs. the fact that it took him six yrs. to play a full season does not say elite to me. The dude had three yrs. to prepare with the Falcons. What other Elite QB had that long of a necessary preparation time? Aaron Rodgers is the only one that comes to mind and even he blew up in his first yr. didn't he, showing flashes of what he was capable of. In his first two yrs. as a starter Schaub was not even clearly the best QB on the team, with alot of people preferring Rosenfels, it took an epic fail by Rosenfels at Indy in 08' to secure Schaubs position and shipping Rosenfels to the Vikings. It's crazy cuz' I'm a Texans fan so I should also be ga-ga for this guy, but I just can't.

Technique, I noticed a few people compare Schaub to Rivers, I'm sorry, that is a horrible comparison. For short to maybe 20 yds. down field Schaubs release is nice and quick, going further down field his technique becomes eratic and his windup becomes longer. In the second Colts game of this yr. this was evidenced clearly when R. Mathis stripped the ball from Schaub at the tail end of his wind-up, a play that would have never happened if Schaubs wind-up and release were consistent.

Then there was the Matt is more mobile and aware in the pocket than rivers. Really? Anybody that watches Matt closely will notice that he doesn't stay on the balls of his feet, the guy plays flatfooted. Speaking of awareness, Schaubs avg. sack time is at 3.8 secs after the snap. Most other QB's avg. sack time comes about a second quicker. This means he has good protection, but he doesn't get rid of the ball quicker. I hate to say this cuz' he's my teams QB, but a good amount of sacks that he took could have been avoided. One last thing is he telegraphs his throw to the flat, twice he was intercepted on the exact same throw once against the Cards and again at the Jags.

Also thanks to our HC's focus on making Schaub a gun-slinger our running game suffered incredibly going from decent on the verge of something special to bottom feeder. Our back-up qb's didn't take any snaps with our offense, if the starter needs that much practice time he should be doing more wow throws on Sundays. Not throw into triple coverage and know where his outlets are.

Back to the mobility thing. In Denver the play action was a very deadly weapon. However with Schaub running that offense not once have they run a designed bootleg run. However one series with Rex Grossman and he gains a first down with a designed bootleg run. Let me repeat myself.. with REX GROSSMAN. The other handicap is that Matt cannot throw across his body while on the move. So while he does the bootleg one side of the field is inaccessible until he stops to set up.

I deal with a ton of my peers jocking him and I get a lot of flack about how I'm not a real fan, but whatever. If I weren't a fan I wouldn't notice these things. It's a good thing I don't have DVR.

Anyways, as a six yr. vet Schaub is a good QB, but to say he's elite or much more than avg. is just not right.

1. No one is calling Schaub Michael Vick, but he is pretty mobile for a pocket passer. Is he Vick? Absolutely not. But he can move when he needs to. And btw, bootleg plays aren't just about mobility. In fact, a lot of coaches prefer the bootleg to give their qb's less of the field to scan so they make quicker decisions.

If you're running less bootleg with Schaub, it's probably bc he does a good job of scanning the field (which he does) and restricting half of the field in bootleg isn't necessarily the best idea when you have a good field scanner.



2. You're blaming Schaub for the run game? How does that make any sense?

3. Being more mobile means you have to be on the toes of your feet while in the pocket? The hell?

4. Your oline isn't very good. I've seen it plenty. It's average. I wouldn't put sacks on Schaub, he gets the ball out quickly.

5. Of course his wind up is gonna be larger on a bigger throw. EVERY qb's windup is bigger on bomb passes.


I think you're being a little harsh on Schaub.

Ness
08-07-2010, 08:19 PM
Didn't say it took him that long to be good. Took him that long to play a full season. There's a difference.

You said he had "three years to prepare with the Falcons". Prepare for not getting injured in Pro Football? Is this what you meant? That doesn't make sense. And he was behind Michael Vick for a long time. Schaub was never drafted to be the franchise quarterback for Atlanta. The guy was "prepared" when he was traded to the Texans to be the starter.

datchapin
08-08-2010, 01:28 PM
You said he had "three years to prepare with the Falcons". Prepare for not getting injured in Pro Football? Is this what you meant? That doesn't make sense. And he was behind Michael Vick for a long time. Schaub was never drafted to be the franchise quarterback for Atlanta. The guy was "prepared" when he was traded to the Texans to be the starter.

No, I've watched MS for the last 3 yrs. and before this yr. he was a borderline starter. Not much better than a rookie. A guy whos been in the league that long shouldn't have been looking like a rookie. His first season he had more turnovers than he did TD's, his second season he had one more TD than he did turnovers. This yr. he had 3 scores to every two turnovers. Three yrs. with the Falcons and he still came in here not being able to take care of the rock. How was he preped when he came here? I mean really we gave up 2 second rdrs. and swapped firsts with ATL and he could barely distinguish himself from his back-up until he was shipped off.

datchapin
08-08-2010, 02:01 PM
1. No one is calling Schaub Michael Vick, but he is pretty mobile for a pocket passer. Is he Vick? Absolutely not. But he can move when he needs to. And btw, bootleg plays aren't just about mobility. In fact, a lot of coaches prefer the bootleg to give their qb's less of the field to scan so they make quicker decisions.

If you're running less bootleg with Schaub, it's probably bc he does a good job of scanning the field (which he does) and restricting half of the field in bootleg isn't necessarily the best idea when you have a good field scanner.



2. You're blaming Schaub for the run game? How does that make any sense?

3. Being more mobile means you have to be on the toes of your feet while in the pocket? The hell?

4. Your oline isn't very good. I've seen it plenty. It's average. I wouldn't put sacks on Schaub, he gets the ball out quickly.

5. Of course his wind up is gonna be larger on a bigger throw. EVERY qb's windup is bigger on bomb passes.


I think you're being a little harsh on Schaub.

1. What are you talking about? Who compared Schaub to Vick? The bootleg is a staple of our offense. We run it alot with Matt. Don't give me that about taking half of the field away to make it easier. Elway was known for running the bootleg and throwing it all the way across the field to the opposite sideline. Heck Kubiaks first yr. here D. Carr made that throw a few times. Schaub can't do that on the run. Our bootleg is limited by that. Denver was also known for bootleg runs designed for the QB, don't know if it's because of Matt being injury prone or not mobile enough, but I have not seen us run that in the Schaub era with Schaub, Rosenfels and Grossman did it during their limited play.

2. Did I blame Schaub? I said the HC focusing so much on the passing game hurt our running game.

3. Staying on the balls of your feet allows you move while maintaining your your form. Watch Brees, Manning, Brady, and Rivers. They all do this well shifting around in the pocket without breaking form until they A. pass it or B. break into a run.

4. Oh, really? You mean our run blocking? I could give you that, but don't crack on my line like that. Check this link http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/12/04/between-the-lines-whos-given-up-the-most-sacks-through-week-12/#cntnt
Eric Winston and Pitts are the only linemen that give up sacks 3, under an avg. of 3.5 secs. Even here it's recognized that Schaub has a tendency to hold on to the ball longer than necessary. So tell me where is this evidence that Schaub gets the ball out quickly?

5. Really, watch this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR41zWsHik0 Tell me Schaub is consistent. Every 5 to seven step drop Schaub launches from the hip, three steps from the shoulder and bootlegs from the shoulder. Does every other QB do that?

Of course I'm harsh on Schaub. What do you expect? I'm not gonna gloss over his flaws. I'm not saying he's bad he's a decent starter, but I get tired of everyone putting him on a level where he's not.

Ness
08-08-2010, 02:09 PM
No, I've watched MS for the last 3 yrs. and before this yr. he was a borderline starter. Not much better than a rookie. A guy whos been in the league that long shouldn't have been looking like a rookie. His first season he had more turnovers than he did TD's, his second season he had one more TD than he did turnovers. This yr. he had 3 scores to every two turnovers. Three yrs. with the Falcons and he still came in here not being able to take care of the rock. How was he preped when he came here? I mean really we gave up 2 second rdrs. and swapped firsts with ATL and he could barely distinguish himself from his back-up until he was shipped off.

You're acting like you're disappointed that you didn't get Peyton Manning or something. Just because he had three years behind Michael Vick doesn't mean he was a guranteed starter that was going to come in and everything was going to be perfectly fine. If you believed that, then you were setting yourself up for failure. The point is, Kubiak and company believed he was the quarterback of the future for the Texans and up to this point, they're been right. It may have taken longer than expected, but Schaub is already the best quarterback you guys have ever had. And it's not like the trade wasn't in favor of Schaub. Justin Blalock, Fred Davis, and Jamal Anderson haven't really an impact in the NFL at their positions.

Steve Young at behind Joe Montana for a long time and it wasn't until six years later after Montana was traded he started to become good. But before that he was very inconsistent during mop-up duty or various starts here and there. And that was with one of the best coaching staffs and teams ever. Young already had some experience playing in the USFL and with the Buccaneers also before that. Still, it wasn't until the man was 29 that he finally started to click.

Schaub isn't the problem in Houston. It could be a lot worse. The Texans wouldn't have had 8 wins last season without him. I'm sure you don't want to go back to the days of Banks and Carr. You could nitpick about this sack time in seconds or whatever, but that would be like me complaining that Joe Montana was only 6'1''. In the big aspect of things, it's not that big of a deal.

datchapin
08-09-2010, 01:16 PM
You're acting like you're disappointed that you didn't get Peyton Manning or something. Just because he had three years behind Michael Vick doesn't mean he was a guranteed starter that was going to come in and everything was going to be perfectly fine. If you believed that, then you were setting yourself up for failure. The point is, Kubiak and company believed he was the quarterback of the future for the Texans and up to this point, they're been right. It may have taken longer than expected, but Schaub is already the best quarterback you guys have ever had. And it's not like the trade wasn't in favor of Schaub. Justin Blalock, Fred Davis, and Jamal Anderson haven't really an impact in the NFL at their positions.

Steve Young at behind Joe Montana for a long time and it wasn't until six years later after Montana was traded he started to become good. But before that he was very inconsistent during mop-up duty or various starts here and there. And that was with one of the best coaching staffs and teams ever. Young already had some experience playing in the USFL and with the Buccaneers also before that. Still, it wasn't until the man was 29 that he finally started to click.

Schaub isn't the problem in Houston. It could be a lot worse. The Texans wouldn't have had 8 wins last season without him. I'm sure you don't want to go back to the days of Banks and Carr. You could nitpick about this sack time in seconds or whatever, but that would be like me complaining that Joe Montana was only 6'1''. In the big aspect of things, it's not that big of a deal.

Did I say Schaub was the problem in Houston? No, I'm pointing out his shortcomings. Is he good, I would think so. Does he have all the tools to be elite. No. Is he in the upper ecchelon of current QB's? Considering he's only had one good full season, I'm gonna have to wait to make that determination.

You trade for a guy and give up what we did, plus the amount of money we gave him, then yes. I am disappointed. He doesn't take care of the football as well as he could. He had a "QB Guru" in Kubiak and given every opportunity to succeed. Yet, three yrs. into his tenure here he still keeps the ball low, needs to work on his pocket awareness and footing and decision making. Despite all these shortcomings he's doing well. However I just can't say he's elite.

Nobody would want to go back to the days of garbage. Seriously? I brought up the sack time because big blue cracked on the Texans line and said that Schaub got rid of the ball quickly.

I'm not gonna sit here and try to change you're opinion. I've stated mine and now I think I'll leave it at that.

LonghornsLegend
08-09-2010, 01:28 PM
Did I say Schaub was the problem in Houston? No, I'm pointing out his shortcomings. Is he good, I would think so. Does he have all the tools to be elite. No. Is he in the upper ecchelon of current QB's? Considering he's only had one good full season, I'm gonna have to wait to make that determination.

What tools is he lacking to become an elite QB one day? Curious to hear this.

Ness
08-09-2010, 05:15 PM
Did I say Schaub was the problem in Houston? No, I'm pointing out his shortcomings. Is he good, I would think so. Does he have all the tools to be elite. No. Is he in the upper ecchelon of current QB's? Considering he's only had one good full season, I'm gonna have to wait to make that determination.

You trade for a guy and give up what we did, plus the amount of money we gave him, then yes. I am disappointed. He doesn't take care of the football as well as he could. He had a "QB Guru" in Kubiak and given every opportunity to succeed. Yet, three yrs. into his tenure here he still keeps the ball low, needs to work on his pocket awareness and footing and decision making. Despite all these shortcomings he's doing well. However I just can't say he's elite.

Nobody would want to go back to the days of garbage. Seriously? I brought up the sack time because big blue cracked on the Texans line and said that Schaub got rid of the ball quickly.

I'm not gonna sit here and try to change you're opinion. I've stated mine and now I think I'll leave it at that.

You didn't have to "state" he was the problem. Just seems like you're not appreciative of your quarterback and complaining about little things that really won't make or break the Texans road to success in the long run. But you have your opinion and I have mine. We'll agree to disagree.

BigDawg819
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
What tools is he lacking to become an elite QB one day? Curious to hear this.

Apparently Peyton Manning's DNA

Brent
08-09-2010, 06:31 PM
Apparently Peyton Manning's DNA
he's probably got some left in his mouth/anus.





Yeah, I got nothing.

datchapin
08-09-2010, 07:52 PM
What tools is he lacking to become an elite QB one day? Curious to hear this.

Elite is defined differently by each person. To me elite is above great, because alot of people can be great elite is above that. Having said that here I go.

Arm Strentgh- Do I really have to elaborate?

Accuracy- While his completion percentage is good, his actual accuracy with the ball isn't all that great. He doesn't drop the ball in the breadbasket of a receiver in stride, he doesn't thread the needle and if it weren't for our receivers making great catches his percentage wouldn't be where he's at.

Confidence- I don't mean his demeanor. I mean in his throws. I've gone to dang near every home game during Schaub's career. I've seen him roll out and hesitate to hit open receivers time and time again. Most of the time the receivers are in good enough position where it won't make a difference, but sometimes he'll lead them to crushing hits, out of bounds or it'll just be intercepted. In a game of inches fractions of a second can make a huge difference.

Consistency- Do I need to elaborate?

Toughness- Do I need to elaborate?

Before you dig in. I'm happy he's on our team, he's not the biggest concern. What's done is done and I hope he keeps getting better, but no I don't think he'll be elite. Please don't read to much into what I say, I don't mean to come off as a hater, I'm just stating what I think. You asked a question and I answered it to my best ability.

And Brent...... that's messed up...... just whoa man, whoa.

Brent
08-09-2010, 08:02 PM
And Brent...... that's messed up...... just whoa man, whoa.
Haha, I went to A&M, I had many friends who were Texans fans and they hated Matt Schaub. And, watched too many Colts/Texans games, but that was mostly a joke.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-06-2010, 05:50 PM
Didn't wanna make a new thread for this, but I just wanted to pose a question.

From this thread, it seems like Schaub is liked so much because of his stats, essentially. He's a very productive player.

So where does my boy Kyle Orton rank?

SenorGato
10-06-2010, 05:53 PM
I like Schaub...Don't understand why he's not more popular.

If he were Matt Schaub, former highly touted QB and first round pick, he'd be looked at a whole lot differently.

Maybe I just like him because he's a legit QB throwing to a guy who should have been known as the best WR in football a long time ago.

Addict
10-06-2010, 05:55 PM
I like Schaub...Don't understand why he's not more popular.

If he were Matt Schaub, former highly touted QB and first round pick, he'd be looked at a whole lot differently.

Maybe I just like him because he's a legit QB throwing to a guy who should have been known as the best WR in football a long time ago.

have you SEEN his old man face? that **** is scary.

SenorGato
10-06-2010, 05:59 PM
He looks like a former stoner.

D-Unit
10-06-2010, 08:02 PM
Schaub has always been overrated. He's plenty capable of being an NFL QB, just lacks the fire that the great ones have.

yourfavestoner
10-06-2010, 08:06 PM
I'm interested to see how the Texans, as a whole, perform down the stretch. Their upcoming schedule is pretty nasty.

shinzo123
10-06-2010, 09:13 PM
The Texans seem to be on the path to a 10-7 season so we will probably get to see plenty of Schaub. Schaub is good same 3rd tier as manning and romo.

CC.SD
10-06-2010, 09:53 PM
Brady
Manning
Brees
Rivers
Rodgers
Schaub

I am finally sold on Schaub he is bringing a whole lot to the table.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Schaub has always been overrated. He's plenty capable of being an NFL QB, just lacks the fire that the great ones have.

Not that I disagree, but this sounds like how you talked about Brees last season.

niel89
10-06-2010, 09:58 PM
Didn't wanna make a new thread for this, but I just wanted to pose a question.

From this thread, it seems like Schaub is liked so much because of his stats, essentially. He's a very productive player.

So where does my boy Kyle Orton rank?

Kyle Orton is going to get more and more love as the season goes on. He is producing wonderfully and people love to see stats. I think people viewed him as an afterthought in the Jay Cutler trade because of his previous role in chicago. Now he is a great fit for his offense and isn't view as a game manager. He is leading the league in passing yards a quarter of the way through the season, can't ignore something like that.

CC.SD
10-06-2010, 10:00 PM
choo choo the Orton>Cutler train is chugging along nicely