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View Full Version : Prospect of the Day: WR Jonathan Baldwin, Pittsburgh


Mr. Goosemahn
08-02-2010, 10:01 AM
To see previously discussed prospects, click here.
Jake Locker - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2230943
Cameron Heyward - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41890
Marvin Austin - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41892
Adrian Clayborn - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41919
Anthony Castonzo - http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41929
Greg Romeus - http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41940
Von Miller - http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2238637
Mike Pouncey - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41959
Allen Bailey - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41971
Mark Herzlich - http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41993
Prince Amukamara - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42000
Gabe Carimi - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42014
Patrick Peterson - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42030
Terrance Toliver - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42042
Noel Devine - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42053
DeAndre McDaniel - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42063
A. J. Green - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42070


http://community.post-gazette.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/500x400/__key/CommunityServer.Components.PostAttachments/00.00.24.36.97/freed_5F00_pitt111409_5F00_1.jpg

WR Jonathan Baldwin, Pittsburgh
6'5 - 225 lbs. - Junior

Highlights!

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I want him in a Steelers uniform so bad. Great WR, great skillset, great overall prospect. Physically he reminds me of Plaxico Burress, tall guys with long arms. Has great speed for a guy his size, uncanny ability to come down with the tough catch, and is a great overall player. Also, I just realized I could use this description (maybe not the Burress bit though) for any of the top WR's.

Finally, he's the most gifted WR prospect according to bce.

FUNBUNCHER
08-02-2010, 10:12 AM
My favorite WR available in the 2011 draft. Maybe not quite as fluid as AJ Green, but not that far off.

He more than compensates with his size/strength/deep speed. Won't be surprised if he puts up Larry Fitzgerald type numbers in 2010, and I think he has a great shot to post a sub 4.4 predraft 40 time once the bowl season ends.

You better get some of this, bce!!!!!

BamaFalcon59
08-02-2010, 10:16 AM
Cross between Calvin and Vincent Jackson IMO.

hockey619
08-02-2010, 10:21 AM
Finally, he's the most gifted WR prospect according to bce.

You better get some of this, bce!!!!!



this is why i want him, that man is a genius so if he says its so, then it must be.

he looks like a slightly less fluid calvin to me or vincent jackson with his size. his game speed looks to match calvins college game speed and he seems to have good hands. idk about his change of direction skills, hes always got a guy on him in all of his catches. its good to know he can reel them in in traffic, but with his skill set id expect more seperation from college corners so im not sold on his route running ability to come in and out of breaks. shut up bce. hed be a very tough guy to cover.

FUNBUNCHER
08-02-2010, 10:22 AM
Cross between Calvin and Vincent Jackson IMO.

Bingo. Not hype either IMO.

hockey619
08-02-2010, 10:22 AM
Cross between Calvin and Vincent Jackson IMO.


damn you! i was typing when you posted so i didnt even see that you said that. not cool now instead of looking wicked smart i look like i just follow the espn heard.

but seriously exactly good call.

Babylon
08-02-2010, 11:14 AM
Baldwin, Floyd, Green and Jones early in the draft may be the best group i can ever remember.

Hines
08-02-2010, 12:43 PM
This is my man crush for the season. I want to keep the hometown kid home. Such a beast. Needs to work on his routes and I don't think he's as fast as what has been linked, but still a great prospect. I want him so bad in Pittsburgh.

BeerBaron
08-02-2010, 12:46 PM
Highest ceiling of the the stud receivers in this draft imo. I have him 2nd behind Green and should be a lock top 10 pick barring injury.

dannyz
08-02-2010, 02:09 PM
Think about it 2008 no WR in the 1ST, 2011 maybe 4 in the 1ST.

A Perfect Score
08-02-2010, 02:54 PM
I still have him as the third best WR in this draft behind Green and Floyd. As talented as he is, the kid is still very raw as a WR and I need to see him streamline his technique because he isn't going to beat people with pure athleticism once he gets to the NFL. Right now, he's getting by purely on physical attributes, and I think he needs to clean up his route running and show me consistent ability to use proper hand movement to disengage before Im ready to put him above Green or Floyd.

If we are talking pro comparisons, I think hes more Plaxico Burress then Vincent Jackson. And he's defintely not Calvin Johnson.

BamaFalcon59
08-02-2010, 03:11 PM
Think about it 2008 no WR in the 1ST, 2011 maybe 4 in the 1ST.

Not to mention players such as DeAndre Brown (USM), Devier Posey (tOSU), and Ryan Broyles (OU).

Duffman57
08-02-2010, 03:48 PM
He's probably my 2nd favorite WR prospect in this draft (2nd FAVORITE not Best, though i do think he is the 2nd best but not to the same guy. My favorite guy is DeAndre Brown, who has a very similar skillset to Vincent Jackson.

But i think that Baldwin has the measurables of a Vincent Jackson, and the playing style of Calvin Johnson like someone else said. I think he's going to be a very good player, and should be a top 10 to 15 pick.

brat316
08-02-2010, 04:34 PM
your link for AJ green is wrong.

FUNBUNCHER
08-02-2010, 05:48 PM
None of the top prospects have even sniffed the numbers Baldwin put up at Pitt last season.

bce
08-02-2010, 05:52 PM
My favorite WR available in the 2011 draft. Maybe not quite as fluid as AJ Green, but not that far off.

He more than compensates with his size/strength/deep speed. Won't be surprised if he puts up Larry Fitzgerald type numbers in 2010, and I think he has a great shot to post a sub 4.4 predraft 40 time once the bowl season ends.

You better get some of this, bce!!!!!


Hes a lock winner. Theres not a close second even in this talented class. Ball skills, deep burning, RAC ability, goes over the middle in traffic and makes tough ctaches when hes going to take a hit. Hes just going to be a load to handle for anyone trying to cover him. Physically, very randy moss esque. Big plays all the time.

bce
08-02-2010, 05:55 PM
I think hes better than calvin johnson. I'll go on record right now.

tjsunstein
08-02-2010, 06:01 PM
I think hes better than calvin johnson. I'll go on record right now.
Based on what, exactly?

bce
08-02-2010, 06:03 PM
Every time i see him play he just looks more and more like randy moss. A big play waiting to happen. Plus hes not a soft serve type. Hes from aliquippa, theres no soft serve in aliquippa.

Certainly opinion not based on fact, and you know i dont like saying college players are better than nfl players, especially good ones, but baldwin just reminds me of randy moss every time i see him. You just know at some point there will be a huge play.

CLong4Heisman
08-02-2010, 06:04 PM
Calvin Johnson put up better numbers with Reggie ball at QB. Imagine if he had an average guy getting him the ball.

bce
08-02-2010, 06:07 PM
Baldwin had an average guy throwing to him to, just look at how many underthrown balls just from the short videos posted.. Like i said, its opinion not based on fact, but its an educated guess.

CLong4Heisman
08-02-2010, 06:10 PM
Yeah bill stull wasn't a world beater but compared to Reggie ball he's Dan Marino. I love Baldwin as a prospect. He's a little raw but thats nothing that can't be gained with experience.

brat316
08-02-2010, 07:33 PM
GUYS GUYS GUYS...Baldwin should ...WILL go number 1 overall.

bce
08-02-2010, 10:43 PM
I wouldnt do that but hes the best prospect since calvin johnson. We dont want to catch the syndrome though by taking him #1 overall. If were disregarding position value, ingram and baldwin are neck and neck for the best prospect. Like 1 and 1a, if were disregarding position value.

If hes raw then aj green is a frozen quarter pounder.

gpngc
08-02-2010, 11:27 PM
Every time i see him play he just looks more and more like randy moss. A big play waiting to happen. Plus hes not a soft serve type. Hes from aliquippa, theres no soft serve in aliquippa.

Certainly opinion not based on fact, and you know i dont like saying college players are better than nfl players, especially good ones, but baldwin just reminds me of randy moss every time i see him. You just know at some point there will be a huge play.

QFT.

Mike Ditka, Tony Dorsett, Ty Law, Darrelle Revis, my father.

A Perfect Score
08-02-2010, 11:28 PM
AJ Green is a much more developed and fluid propect then Jonathon Balwin. Ill buy Baldwin having better physical tools, but Green is far and away the better receiver at this point.

P-L
08-03-2010, 12:57 AM
bce is a very underrated poster. He introduced this board to the term "soft serve," which might be my new favorite descriptive term for an NFL prospect.

marshallb
08-03-2010, 01:38 AM
AJ Green is a much more developed and fluid propect then Jonathon Balwin. Ill buy Baldwin having better physical tools, but Green is far and away the better receiver at this point.

bce's next post: ...but you can't measure that, it's opinion not based on fact.

DeathbyStat
08-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Love this guy Calvin Johnson esque. I have him rated as the number 2 receiver behind AJ Green

bce
08-03-2010, 05:44 PM
AJ Green is a much more developed and fluid propect then Jonathon Balwin. Ill buy Baldwin having better physical tools, but Green is far and away the better receiver at this point.

Thats not whats showing on the field would be my complaint with that.

prock
08-03-2010, 06:15 PM
Thats not whats showing on the field would be my complaint with that.

Yes, it is what is showing on the field. No, it isn't what is showing in the box score, which is all you look at.

_YL_
08-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Can't wait to see him dominate this year he put up really good numbers last year and should put up even better numbers this year he is easily a top 15 talent.I would take him over any other WR in this draft class he is a match up nightmare

bce
08-03-2010, 07:09 PM
Sorry prock, but that is whats happening on the field. hes just making more plays, more big plays than aj green is.

Every time i see him, hes more and more randy moss-esque. I said hes better than calvin johnson, i'm going stick by it, and you know i dont compare to good nfl players as a general rule.

Hes just going to be a load for any db to handle. Youre not going to be physical with him, hes going to be able to run by guys, hes going to be able to jump over guys as YL says, a matchup nightmare.

phlysac
08-03-2010, 07:11 PM
I'm a Pitt homer and will try to be VERY fair in my quick opinion of Baldwin.

In 2008, his only work as a WR was basically to run go routes. He is still far from polished but if his overall improvement in route skills, blocking, and other intricacies of the position improve similarly in 2010 as they did in 2009, the sky is the limit.

I don't often agree with bce, but the player I think of when I see Baldwin in action, is also Randy Moss.

A Perfect Score
08-03-2010, 08:53 PM
Sorry prock, but that is whats happening on the field. hes just making more plays, more big plays than aj green is.

Every time i see him, hes more and more randy moss-esque. I said hes better than calvin johnson, i'm going stick by it, and you know i dont compare to good nfl players as a general rule.

Hes just going to be a load for any db to handle. Youre not going to be physical with him, hes going to be able to run by guys, hes going to be able to jump over guys as YL says, a matchup nightmare.

Dear god you are a moron. Big plays dont equate to being a better receiver. Desean Jackson isn't better then Andre Johnson, even though Jackson has a knack for making big plays whereas Johnson is a more polished and consistent receiver.

Now, Im not comparing Green and Baldwin to those two, but its the same dynamic. Green is a better receiver, and while Baldwin may be more physically talented at this point, that doesn't guarantee success in the pros. If I had to put money on one being a success and one busting, I would put my money on Green to be successful because hes capable of doing the little things at WR that will make for a smooth transition to the NFL, whereas Baldwin is still relying almost entirely on athleticism to beat DBs, which he wont be able to do in the NFL.

It has nothing to do with big plays, measurables, or box scores. Try watching the two of them play before opening your mouth.

TACKLE
08-04-2010, 02:15 AM
It has nothing to do with big plays, measurables, or box scores. Try watching the two of them play before opening your mouth.

You're assuming that he's capable of comprehending and understanding what he sees happen in a football game. Your assumption is incorrect.

frubulubu
08-04-2010, 05:36 AM
I havent been busy as of late and thats a shame because bce is a combination of RC3+Thumper.

bce
08-04-2010, 07:41 PM
Dear god you are a moron. Big plays dont equate to being a better receiver. Desean Jackson isn't better then Andre Johnson, even though Jackson has a knack for making big plays whereas Johnson is a more polished and consistent receiver.

Now, Im not comparing Green and Baldwin to those two, but its the same dynamic. Green is a better receiver, and while Baldwin may be more physically talented at this point, that doesn't guarantee success in the pros. If I had to put money on one being a success and one busting, I would put my money on Green to be successful because hes capable of doing the little things at WR that will make for a smooth transition to the NFL, whereas Baldwin is still relying almost entirely on athleticism to beat DBs, which he wont be able to do in the NFL.

It has nothing to do with big plays, measurables, or box scores. Try watching the two of them play before opening your mouth.


This entire post is opinion not based on fact. Andre johnson makes plenty of big plays. This idea of doing the little things is compensation for the fact that aj green cant do the big things.

The best do the big things.

A Perfect Score
08-04-2010, 08:43 PM
Oh. My. God. How can you possibly be so stupid?

Yes, Andre Johnson makes big plays. However, Desean Jackson scored on 8 plays of 50 or more yards last year. That was the most in the league. According to your logic, that makes him the best WR in the league because he made the most big plays.

WRONG! YOU ARE A MORON!

Andre Johnson is a better receiver because while Desean Jackson is a great deep threat, he doesnt run intermediate routes well and he can't consistently use his hands to get off a jam. Does your tiny little brain understand how this works? There is a difference between making long plays and being a better player. Wes Welker had a YPC average that was 3 yards shorter then other elite receivers last year. He doesnt make big plays. Is Wes Welker a better WR then Desean Jackson? At this point, yes.

"This idea of doing the little things is compensation for the fact that aj green cant do the big things."

No. Not at all. Its that everyone except you can comprehend the idea of a WR being successful despite big triangle numbers. Its like talking to a ******* ******** person. You just keep spitting out the same stupid **** no matter how many times you are proven wrong.

bce
08-04-2010, 08:51 PM
It has nothing at all to do with triangle numbers. Are you saying andre johnson is a "posession receiver" who doesnt have sub 4.4 speed? better check again.

Baldwins a better athlete, hes more productive than green, he plays better than green. This idea that gifted players dont do the little things or lack some intangible that the less gifted have in spades its simply not correct. Its a rationalization to justify the less gifted.

A Perfect Score
08-04-2010, 08:56 PM
No, it isnt a rationalization. Its the truth. Watch one minute of game film on both and its clearly evident in both their styles of play.

I wasn't saying Johnson was a possession receiver. Not at all. I said hes more complete then a guy like Desean Jackson because hes capable of being a possession receiver when his team needs him to be. Your logic dictated that big plays meant a better player. That isnt true in this case.

AJ Green is a better receiver then Jonathon Baldwin. Not more physically gifted, but a better receiver. You can take that one to the bank.

bce
08-04-2010, 09:00 PM
Its not clearly evident, at least the results arent clearly evident. I have watched game film on both, and baldwin is the better player. If hes the better receiver, why isnt the result him being a better receiver.

Youre rationalizing on behalf of aj green because you know hes the less gifted, and since hes the less gifted, since hes the less productive, you have to have reason to justify why he is better than baldwin, by which you turn to the tried and true justification, evaluation on intangibles.. the tape doesnt show it, the stats dont show it, nothing shows that aj green is the better player.

A Perfect Score
08-04-2010, 09:04 PM
No one is disputing that Baldwin is a more physically gifted individual then Green. In fact, I dont think anyone is going to challenge that point at all. However, you will find a ton of people willing to say that Green is a better football player at this point because, quite frankly, he is. I'm going to trust my own ability to evaluate game tape over yours at this point because Im convinced that you are legally ********, and when I turn on the tape I see Baldwin as a talented but raw receiver with a ton of potential and I see Green, who has spent time learning the nuances of the position and who should transfer more smoothly to the professional game. Thats all there is to it. Now go back to drooling on your keyboard and spam another board, this one is tired of you.

bce
08-04-2010, 09:09 PM
hes mpore gifted on the field is the point im making. regardless of the "triangle numbers" hes playing better than green. You see him as raw but hes outperforming aj green. How is he raw when hes outperforming aj green. For all aj greens nuances and supposed knowledge and fluidity etc etc, hes not playing better than baldwin.

So if thats the case, what does it really matter even if these unmeausrables that aj green has are were true? its not translating to aj green playing better than baldwin. So what does it matter.

A Perfect Score
08-04-2010, 09:19 PM
It depends entirely on your definition of good. If you are talking in terms of just college football, then yes, Baldwin arguably outplayed an injured Green last year in terms of total statistics. If you are talking about their ability to transition to the professional level and as prospects, Green is far superior at this point.

bce
08-04-2010, 09:27 PM
And how is that? If its not translating on the field then i dont understand. If aj green is not performing at a higher level in the college game, and is less gifted, im not sure how you can come to that conslusion that aj green superior. How does the less gifted translate to the nfl game better than the superiorly gifted? does the nfl game slow down and allow for the less gifted to perform at a higher level than the gifted?

A Perfect Score
08-04-2010, 09:31 PM
No, but Jonathon Baldwin wont be able to rely purely on his athleticism in the NFL the same way he has done thus far in his college career. AJ Green, on the other hand, is both an impressive physical specimen and he is capable of doing the little things required to be a successful NFL WR...ie. He is capable of using his hands to disengage, he can run short and intermediate routes, etc. etc.

I don't understand how this is so difficult for you. No one else has a problem understanding why Green is a better prospect. Its like you refuse to listen to logic just because hes a more highly touted prospect. Its the common belief that Green is better for a reason...its because he is.

hockey619
08-04-2010, 09:37 PM
And how is that? If its not translating on the field then i dont understand. If aj green is not performing at a higher level in the college game, and is less gifted, im not sure how you can come to that conslusion that aj green superior. How does the less gifted translate to the nfl game better than the superiorly gifted? does the nfl game slow down and allow for the less gifted to perform at a higher level than the gifted?


some of the plays baldwin makes are plays he wont be able to get away with in the pros. he wont be any faster than the corner covering him and they will be able to push him off his routes because he doesnt hide them well. hes also seeing coverages like soft zones that teams wont have to run against him in the pros because theyll be able to keep up with is speed and wont have to fear the big play as much.

in the redzone however, you are correct bce, baldwin will be a nightmare on jump balls. its just his other reception oppurtunities over the middle will be harder to come by as he struggles to get seperation if his routes are bad. but if he continues to develop it wont matter, he'll be a force all over the place. i can certainly see the argument that he'll be a better player than calvin, who for all his amazing tools has been good but not amazing...yet.

bce
08-04-2010, 09:38 PM
Your first assumption is that hes simply relying on athleticism.

Your second assumption is that hes doing little things that baldwin isnt, but thats not translating to success level.

We understand each other perfectly. You evaluate on intangibles. . I dont evaluate on intangibles. I evaluate on what happens on the field.

A Perfect Score
08-04-2010, 09:40 PM
There is nothing intangible about it. Route running isnt an intangible skill. Its very tangible. Clearly you have a tedious grasp on not only football terms, but English in general.

bce
08-07-2010, 03:23 PM
No, but Jonathon Baldwin wont be able to rely purely on his athleticism in the NFL the same way he has done thus far in his college career. AJ Green, on the other hand, is both an impressive physical specimen and he is capable of doing the little things required to be a successful NFL WR...ie. He is capable of using his hands to disengage, he can run short and intermediate routes, etc. etc.

I don't understand how this is so difficult for you. No one else has a problem understanding why Green is a better prospect. Its like you refuse to listen to logic just because hes a more highly touted prospect. Its the common belief that Green is better for a reason...its because he is.


Youre operating under the assumption that baldwin is simply using his athleticism. Youre also operating under the assumption that aj green has superior intangibles to baldwin. I would question both those assumptions, since whats happening on the field is not evidnce to justify such assumptions. What the herd thinks is immaterial, since 95% of the herd just rehashes mel kipers big board.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:09 PM
There is nothing intangible about it. Route running isnt an intangible skill. Its very tangible. Clearly you have a tedious grasp on not only football terms, but English in general.

Youre operating under the assumption that baldwin is simply using his athleticism. Youre also operating under the assumption that aj green has superior intangibles to baldwin. I would question both those assumptions, since whats happening on the field is not evidnce to justify such assumptions. What the herd thinks is immaterial, since 95% of the herd just rehashes mel kipers big board.

Again, wanna respond to this? Or do you want to pick and choose what you respond to?

bce
08-07-2010, 04:33 PM
route running is an intangible, and you have no proof that aj green runs better routes than baldwin. Route running is not a physical gift. Its something that can be taught and or learned.

and yes, ill respond to whatever i want to respond to so dont expect me to respond to every non sense circle that you try to go in.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:35 PM
route running is an intangible, and you have no proof that aj green runs better routes than baldwin. Route running is not a physical gift. Its something that can be taught and or learned.

and yes, ill respond to whatever i want to respond to so dont expect me to respond to every non sense circle that you try to go in.

Route running is not an intangible. You can watch them play and determine what routes they run and how well they run them. It really isn't that hard. You can learn how to run routes better, yes. Just because someone is more physically gifted doesn't make them a better player.

bce
08-07-2010, 04:46 PM
THings that can be taught or learned are intangibles. An no you have no proof that aj green runs better routes than baldwin, since you dont have the playbook and dont know where they are supposed to be on a given play. Thus, you are rationalizing on behalf of aj green because his play hasnt been the best and his physical skills arent the best, so you have to find a reason to support your mel kiper fueled arguments, so you turn to the tried and true tested "evaluation on intangibles" when the tangibles arent there.

prock
08-07-2010, 04:51 PM
THings that can be taught or learned are intangibles. An no you have no proof that aj green runs better routes than baldwin, since you dont have the playbook and dont know where they are supposed to be on a given play. Thus, you are rationalizing on behalf of aj green because his play hasnt been the best and his physical skills arent the best, so you have to find a reason to support your mel kiper fueled arguments, so you turn to the tried and true tested "evaluation on intangibles" when the tangibles arent there.

Route running is very much a tangible evaluation. You can watch them play, see what route they are running, and see how they sell fakes, come in and out of breaks, how hard they cut, etc. You have to watch the game. Thus, you are rationalizing because your box score and player bio fueled arguments need support somehow.

phlysac
08-07-2010, 04:56 PM
THings that can be taught or learned are intangibles.

Say what?

Things that can be taught are TANGIBLE. An inherent gift or skillset or demeanor, or leadership quality, or motivation etc, are INTANGIBLE because you can't see them on the field and cannot be taught.

tan·gi·ble   /ˈtændʒəbəl/ Show Spelled[tan-juh-buhl] –adjective
1. capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.
2. real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary: the tangible benefits of sunshine.
3. definite; not vague or elusive: no tangible grounds for suspicion.

in·tan·gi·ble   /ɪnˈtændʒəbəl/ Show Spelled[in-tan-juh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.
2. not definite or clear to the mind: intangible arguments.
3. (of an asset) existing only in connection with something else, as the goodwill of a business.

bce
08-07-2010, 04:59 PM
How to run proper routes can certainly be taught. And again, you have no proof that aj green runs better routes than baldwin, and even if he does, its not translating to better play.

My evaluation is based on what happens in the game and their physical abilities, because what happens between the white lines is most important, and it is an athletes game. Such things can be seen and measured without inside knowledge.

Your evaluation is based on speculation about things that you could not possibly know, unless you were a coach with knowledge of the playbook. Youre just saying those things about cuts and fakes because it is the only thing that justifies what you are saying. Aj green is better because he makes better cuts and fakes. If thats your argument, thats fine, but i wouldnt evaluate a propsect at wr because they "supposedly" make better cuts and fakes, especially if even true at all its not making any difference on the field.. And its a big huge "supposedly"

bce
08-07-2010, 05:03 PM
Say what?

Things that can be taught are TANGIBLE. An inherent gift or skillset or demeanor, or leadership quality, or motivation etc, are INTANGIBLE because you can't see them on the field and cannot be taught.

In football, intangibles are route running and hard work and leadership and being clean etc. Ive never heard the word "tangibles" to describe aspects of a player.

Thats why you dont hear speed and athleticism described as "intangibles", as would be the case under your definition.

phlysac
08-07-2010, 05:16 PM
How to run proper routes can certainly be taught.

In football, intangibles are route running and hard work and leadership and being clean etc. Ive never heard the word "tangibles" to describe aspects of a player.

Thats why you dont hear speed and athleticism described as "intangibles", as would be the case under your definition.

I'm afraid to ask but I don't know how you think that route-running is intangible. Not only can route-running be taught but you can see it with your own eyes and make corrections physically, making it completely tangible.

I think you're confusing the terms with your philosophy of whether they can be taught or not. That isn't a determining factor of whether something is tangible or not. You can't teach speed but it can certainly be measured and improved physically making it tangible. Leadership is intangible because you can't measure it and even if it improves it wasn't improved because of a physical change, making it intangible.

bce
08-07-2010, 05:24 PM
Youre reversing intangibles and gifts in the football sense. No one calls making great catches or having speed or athleticism or making great plays on the field "intangibles", those things that cannot be taught. Being in the right place, running the proper routes, learning how to best manipulate the nfl game to your advantage, learning how to best play the nfl game those are intangibles. I dont live under the assumption that college players have those type skills at the nfl level, therefore, i dont evaluate based on those things. The other reason being they are generally rationalizations to cover insufficiencies.

phlysac
08-07-2010, 05:39 PM
Youre reversing intangibles and gifts in the football sense. No one calls making great catches or having speed or athleticism or making great plays on the field "intangibles", those things that cannot be taught. Being in the right place, running the proper routes, learning how to best manipulate the nfl game to your advantage, learning how to best play the nfl game those are intangibles. I dont live under the assumption that college players have those type skills at the nfl level, therefore, i dont evaluate based on those things. The other reason being they are generally rationalizations to cover insufficiencies.

I have to agree to disagree. Whether you can teach something doesn't determine if it's tangible or not. In specific terms tangible means to be able to touch it. If a person has good hands, you can pinpoint that on the field, see it with your own eyes, and practice to improve it, making it tangible. The same can be said of a person's ability to run routes. It is a physical action. Physical actions are tangible. Now if you were speaking solely of a person's ability to LEARN how to run routes, or EASE in which they run routes, or the natural quality in which they run routes, then yes it is intangible. The the route itself, and the physical action of running it correctly or not, is tangible.

bce
08-07-2010, 05:56 PM
So you would call speed and athleticism "intangibles" since they cant be learned?

Again, i dont operate on the assumption that college players have nfl level route running skills, nfl level knowledge of the intracies of the game. You couldnt prove it.

I generally find, its a tool used to cover for insufficiencies to hype prospects who are deficient in some way.

FUNBUNCHER
08-07-2010, 08:38 PM
Let's define our terms.

'Intangibles' refer to player abilities that can't be measured.
'tangibles' IMO refer to specific position skills or techniques that can be taught or improved upon, although not all players will execute those techniques at the same level of proficiency. Hard physical abilities also fall under under this definition.

Baldwin has incredible measurables, ,maybe the best among the top WR prospects heading into the 2011 draft, but AJ Green appears at times to have an innate ability to get open against coverage that doesn't rely on his own impressive physical tools.

Maybe AJ Green is technically precocious for his level of football experience and has learned to apply what he's been taught at a higher level than his contemporaries.

But I also think some players have an innate 'talent' for playing a particular position such as WR, like fluidity of motion, a knack for getting in and out of cuts quickly and smoothly without losing speed, hand/eye coordination and body positioning against a DB.

It's like golf or tennis; you can take lessons for 15 years, but certain players will have an ability to play the sport at a world class level that go beyond their technical training.

So, is AJ Green a young technician at WR, or does he possess some natural WR 'ability'??

I tend to lean towards the latter, but the former on some level must be true also.

What stands out about Baldwin when you watch him play is his impressive leaping ability, outstanding height, that long stride deep speed, his reliable hands and his talent for making plays amid multiple defenders.

I see both tangibles AND intangibles in Baldwin's game, not just his physical measurements or speed.

ThePudge
08-12-2010, 01:17 PM
Early Scouting Report for 2011 prospect Jonathan Baldwin - WR - Pittsburgh
- Feedback in any form is welcome and encouraged as always.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/114091010014_Connecticut_v_Pittsburgh-420x285.jpg

Jonathan Baldwin - Pittsburgh
Wide Receiver #3 - Overall #9
6051e 226e - 4.42e

Nobody in college football plays the sport quite like Baldwin. In short, he looks like a basketball player on the field experimenting with football pads. Though that may sound like a harsh criticism it's a trait that receivers like the Vikings' Sidney Rice shared in college. Baldwin is a dynamic athlete with some polish as a wide receiver. Few pro players could cover him in the redzone and his combination of height, leaping ability, and speed is unparalleled on his current level. The attributes that stand out about Baldwin, aside from his triangle numbers, are his concentration and his hands. Though at over 6'5 he's not going to have a lot of DBs disrupt his line of vision, he's shown the ability to track the ball out of the Quarterback's hand and has displayed the body control to adjust to poorly thrown balls. He puts his enormous frame to work, shielding defenders with his body and outmuscling them for the ball. After the catch, he may lack elusiveness but he runs hard and can be an imposing figure running in space.

Although he may be the most physically gifted receiver in a loaded class, Baldwin is far from the most polished. Due to his height, he plays very high-cut and while this has been a significant advantage for him in jump-ball situations, he's just not quite as sudden or fluid getting in and out of his breaks as you'd like. At the next level Baldwin could really struggle to get separation against man coverage across the middle due to the fact that he really doesn't sink his hips well & ends up rounding off his routes. His route-running looks to be his main concern heading into his Junior season as he hasn't been asked to run a full route tree for Pitt. A typical Jonathan Baldwin route consists of him beating the jam with his speed then running straight until Bill Stull puts the ball in the air. His footwork is, at this point, limited and he struggles to gain great separation on comeback routes & in's unless he's facing a soft cushion from a zone defense. To beat the jam, Baldwin prefers to use speed rather than his hands or any moves/techniques.

After a productive season in 2009 in which he accumulated over 1,100 yards receiving and almost 20 yards a catch, Baldwin will be one of the most watched receivers in college football this upcoming year. Though raw, it's expected that he'll continue to dominate and continue to prey on smaller defenders. I'd like to see a little more redzone production for the big guy, as well as progress as a route runner (especially across the middle & outside the hash), and I'd like to see him add to his repertoire for beating the jam. In the NFL size & leaping ability can certainly get you drafted but a lack of polish could leave you with a heavy learning curve. Defensive Backs are bigger & faster in the NFL and Defensive Coordinators are smarter; Baldwin brings a rare amount of physical ability to the table but he must refine his skills and add to his game to maximize his potential. Right now I'd project him as a Top 15 pick, but depending on his progress this season that stock could really go either way.

Pros
+ Height, over 6'5 and uses it to his advantage, attacks the ball at its highest point
+ Exceptional leaper, may have a vertical over 40". Unmatched in jump-ball situations
+ Makes big plays down the field
+ Very fast, beats the jam with speed and shows ability to separate vertically
+ Great hands, catches the ball cleanly in traffic and is reliable
+ Concentration, tracks the ball well out of the Quarterbacks' hand
+ Good body control, can adjust to poorly thrown balls
+ Shields defenders with his enormous body, plays strong
+ Tough to bring down after the catch due to his size/speed
+ Finds soft spots in zone defenses
+ Excellent production in his Sophomore season
+ Has the ability to prey on smaller corners at any level
+ Considerable upside as a redzone target
+ Will be coming out with a lot of experience as a run-blocker and has the size to dominate there
+ Has been durable during his college career

Cons
- Unrefined route-runner, rounds off at the top
- High-cut, doesn't sink his hips and explode through his cuts
- Lacks elusiveness after the catch
- Lacks refinement in his footwork, not overly quick
- Needs to learn to use his hands to beat the jam + gain separation
- Has struggled against some press-man coverage
- Questionable level of competition in the weak Big East
- May have more build-up speed than pure explosiveness
- Ran into a sticky situation after smacking a female student's ass on a bus

A Perfect Score
08-12-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm wary of saying Top 15, because I feel thats too high. However, there is no denying his physical ability and if some team falls in love with his measurables, there is no reason he cant be picked much earlier then he probably deserves (cough, DHB).

My biggest issue with Baldwin isn't even his routes, which you diagnose correctly. He isn't nearly as fluid as some of the other receivers in this class, and he doesn't run sharp, crisp routes. My biggest issue with Baldwin is his inability to use his hands to disengage and his failure to gain separation through anything other then athletic superiority, something he wont have in the NFL. When push comes to shove, hes going to have to prove that he can do something other then just run by defenders...I need to see significant improvement in his technique overall before Im ready to put him above A.J Green or Michael Floyd. That said, if he comes out and dominates this year and illustrates a significant improvement in the aforementioned areas, there is no reason why he can't go Top 15, maybe even Top 10.

FUNBUNCHER
08-12-2010, 04:25 PM
Fair, objective, critical analysis of Baldwin, Pudge.
Another sterling example of what it means to 'show your work' when breaking down a prospect.

bce
08-12-2010, 08:00 PM
Early Scouting Report for 2011 prospect Jonathan Baldwin - WR - Pittsburgh
- Feedback in any form is welcome and encouraged as always.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/114091010014_Connecticut_v_Pittsburgh-420x285.jpg

Jonathan Baldwin - Pittsburgh
Wide Receiver #3 - Overall #9
6051e 226e - 4.42e

Nobody in college football plays the sport quite like Baldwin. In short, he looks like a basketball player on the field experimenting with football pads. Though that may sound like a harsh criticism it's a trait that receivers like the Vikings' Sidney Rice shared in college. Baldwin is a dynamic athlete with some polish as a wide receiver. Few pro players could cover him in the redzone and his combination of height, leaping ability, and speed is unparalleled on his current level. The attributes that stand out about Baldwin, aside from his triangle numbers, are his concentration and his hands. Though at over 6'5 he's not going to have a lot of DBs disrupt his line of vision, he's shown the ability to track the ball out of the Quarterback's hand and has displayed the body control to adjust to poorly thrown balls. He puts his enormous frame to work, shielding defenders with his body and outmuscling them for the ball. After the catch, he may lack elusiveness but he runs hard and can be an imposing figure running in space.

Although he may be the most physically gifted receiver in a loaded class, Baldwin is far from the most polished. Due to his height, he plays very high-cut and while this has been a significant advantage for him in jump-ball situations, he's just not quite as sudden or fluid getting in and out of his breaks as you'd like. At the next level Baldwin could really struggle to get separation against man coverage across the middle due to the fact that he really doesn't sink his hips well & ends up rounding off his routes. His route-running looks to be his main concern heading into his Junior season as he hasn't been asked to run a full route tree for Pitt. A typical Jonathan Baldwin route consists of him beating the jam with his speed then running straight until Bill Stull puts the ball in the air. His footwork is, at this point, limited and he struggles to gain great separation on comeback routes & in's unless he's facing a soft cushion from a zone defense. To beat the jam, Baldwin prefers to use speed rather than his hands or any moves/techniques.

After a productive season in 2009 in which he accumulated over 1,100 yards receiving and almost 20 yards a catch, Baldwin will be one of the most watched receivers in college football this upcoming year. Though raw, it's expected that he'll continue to dominate and continue to prey on smaller defenders. I'd like to see a little more redzone production for the big guy, as well as progress as a route runner (especially across the middle & outside the hash), and I'd like to see him add to his repertoire for beating the jam. In the NFL size & leaping ability can certainly get you drafted but a lack of polish could leave you with a heavy learning curve. Defensive Backs are bigger & faster in the NFL and Defensive Coordinators are smarter; Baldwin brings a rare amount of physical ability to the table but he must refine his skills and add to his game to maximize his potential. Right now I'd project him as a Top 15 pick, but depending on his progress this season that stock could really go either way.

Pros
+ Height, over 6'5 and uses it to his advantage, attacks the ball at its highest point
+ Exceptional leaper, may have a vertical over 40". Unmatched in jump-ball situations
+ Makes big plays down the field
+ Very fast, beats the jam with speed and shows ability to separate vertically
+ Great hands, catches the ball cleanly in traffic and is reliable
+ Concentration, tracks the ball well out of the Quarterbacks' hand
+ Good body control, can adjust to poorly thrown balls
+ Shields defenders with his enormous body, plays strong
+ Tough to bring down after the catch due to his size/speed
+ Finds soft spots in zone defenses
+ Excellent production in his Sophomore season
+ Has the ability to prey on smaller corners at any level
+ Considerable upside as a redzone target
+ Will be coming out with a lot of experience as a run-blocker and has the size to dominate there
+ Has been durable during his college career

Cons
- Unrefined route-runner, rounds off at the top
- High-cut, doesn't sink his hips and explode through his cuts
- Lacks elusiveness after the catch
- Lacks refinement in his footwork, not overly quick
- Needs to learn to use his hands to beat the jam + gain separation
- Has struggled against some press-man coverage
- Questionable level of competition in the weak Big East
- May have more build-up speed than pure explosiveness
- Ran into a sticky situation after smacking a female student's ass on a bus



Unfortunately, there is no basis in reality for the "cons", other than the ass smacking incident. If he rounds off his routes so much, how come he gets open so often. You say he lacks expolsion. Thats hogwash. hes the most explosive guy out there. You say hes not quick, but yet he beats everybody. You say he needs to beat jams and get separation. Nobody can jam and control this guy. Youre going to jam and control jonathan baldwin, play baldwin at the line and try to control him? Think thats going to work? I didnt see any games where baldwin was played man up one on one. The big east thing is immaterial, larry fitz played in the big east.

Youre reaching your using lingo, you sound like nolan nawrocki. Youre speculating that these are weaknesses when there is no proof of such. Youre searching for holes that do not exist. Youre using every wr in the world as the basis for your evaluation when every wr in the world isnt the same. It doesnt matter if jonathan baldwin has great short area quickness, hes not going to.

He has what you cant teach, and what you cant get every day in a wr.

He is a threat to take it to the house on any play, and that threat is going to be increased when he gets balls thrown to him by the superior arms of the nfl. Hes not hines ward, he doesnt need to rely on supposed route running savvy and short area quickness.

All these things you could say the same thing about randy moss or calvin johnson. They are not weaknesses for these players. Its the type of player they are. Every wr is not judged on the same criteria, not every wr performs the same role. Whether randy moss is tough against press man or goes over the middle is immaterial. he is what he is, and what baldwin is, and its that which no amount of supposed savvy or route running or will provide.

He is a threat to take it to the house on any play, and you better put 2 guys on him because one guy isnt going to be able to cover him and him not catch touchdwons and make huge plays. These guys are not a dime a dozen. Baldwin is such a rarity, but yet you compare him as if hes supposed to have hines ward characteristics, and not having hines ward characteristics is supposed weakness. Its not, its apples and oranges, two different types of player. Guys with hines ward ability you can find them anywhere, guys with his intangibles you cant, but guys with his ability you can.

You cannot find guys with baldwins ability. They come around every so often.

And that is where your evaluations go wrong, comparing every receiver with the same criteria, when they are different types of players totally.

K Train
08-12-2010, 08:12 PM
sounds like you want to have his children since you throw every possible negative out the window like hes perfect

bce
08-12-2010, 08:25 PM
sounds like you want to have his children since you throw every possible negative out the window like hes perfect


There are no negatives of consequence. he has larry fitz catching ability in a 6 5 230 lb body with 4.4 speed and a 40 inch vert jump and 36 inch arms. And hes a player.

I dont know if hes perfect, but hes rare. There just arent that many baldwins in the world. Thats is what makes him the best prospect, the rarity of what he brings to the table, the so few in the world that have his gifts, even at the nfl level. His gifts are greater than 99% of the players in the league at his position. You just cant discount the rarity of what baldwin has. You cant teach it, its god given. And you certainly cant expect bhim to have hines ward characteristics and compare him to hines ward, when they are two totally different types of player. he doesnt have wes welkers ability to catch 10 slants a game, nor should he ever be compared to wes welker, but wes welker cant beat any db on earth to the house any given play, jump over the top of them and beat them for long tds either, so evaluating baldwin on supposed lack of welker characteristics is a flawed approach.

ThePudge
08-12-2010, 08:48 PM
If you watch film on Jonathan Baldwin, not highlights on youtube, you'll see that there is more to him than just the big plays. The "proof" is my opinion based on a critical analysis of his game tape. This isn't black and white, there's more to evaluating statistics.

Bce, you should check out Danario Alexander from Missouri. He went undrafted last year. A 6'4 218 receiver who tested with a 41.5" vertical and 4.4 forty. On the year he compiled 113 receptions 1781 yards 14 Td's for the Tigers. Knee surgery & prior injuries were a major factor as to why Alexander wasn't drafted. I'm sure you'll love the guy. I mean you probably already knew about him, probably had him a Top 15 pick... very rare.

Can we deduce that Danario is twice the prospect A.J. Green is? With double the statistics & better triangle numbers we'd have to say Alexander is the better player, maybe the best player. The proof is there, look at the stats, look at the physical ability.

The fact is, there's much more to it than you've been able to understand.

P-L
08-12-2010, 09:20 PM
If you watch film on Jonathan Baldwin, not highlights on youtube, you'll see that there is more to him than just the big plays. The "proof" is my opinion based on a critical analysis of his game tape. This isn't black and white, there's more to evaluating statistics.

Bce, you should check out Danario Alexander from Missouri. He went undrafted last year. A 6'4 218 receiver who tested with a 41.5" vertical and 4.4 forty. On the year he compiled 113 receptions 1781 yards 14 Td's for the Tigers. Knee surgery & prior injuries were a major factor as to why Alexander wasn't drafted. I'm sure you'll love the guy. I mean you probably already knew about him, probably had him a Top 15 pick... very rare.

Can we deduce that Danario is twice the prospect A.J. Green is? With double the statistics & better triangle numbers we'd have to say Alexander is the better player, maybe the best player. The proof is there, look at the stats, look at the physical ability.

The fact is, there's much more to it than you've been able to understand.
Yeah, but Danario Alexander is not from Aliquippa.

A Perfect Score
08-13-2010, 01:21 AM
Unfortunately, there is no basis in reality for the "cons", other than the ass smacking incident. If he rounds off his routes so much, how come he gets open so often. You say he lacks expolsion. Thats hogwash. hes the most explosive guy out there. You say hes not quick, but yet he beats everybody. You say he needs to beat jams and get separation. Nobody can jam and control this guy. Youre going to jam and control jonathan baldwin, play baldwin at the line and try to control him? Think thats going to work? I didnt see any games where baldwin was played man up one on one. The big east thing is immaterial, larry fitz played in the big east.

Youre reaching your using lingo, you sound like nolan nawrocki. Youre speculating that these are weaknesses when there is no proof of such. Youre searching for holes that do not exist. Youre using every wr in the world as the basis for your evaluation when every wr in the world isnt the same. It doesnt matter if jonathan baldwin has great short area quickness, hes not going to.

He has what you cant teach, and what you cant get every day in a wr.

He is a threat to take it to the house on any play, and that threat is going to be increased when he gets balls thrown to him by the superior arms of the nfl. Hes not hines ward, he doesnt need to rely on supposed route running savvy and short area quickness.

All these things you could say the same thing about randy moss or calvin johnson. They are not weaknesses for these players. Its the type of player they are. Every wr is not judged on the same criteria, not every wr performs the same role. Whether randy moss is tough against press man or goes over the middle is immaterial. he is what he is, and what baldwin is, and its that which no amount of supposed savvy or route running or will provide.

He is a threat to take it to the house on any play, and you better put 2 guys on him because one guy isnt going to be able to cover him and him not catch touchdwons and make huge plays. These guys are not a dime a dozen. Baldwin is such a rarity, but yet you compare him as if hes supposed to have hines ward characteristics, and not having hines ward characteristics is supposed weakness. Its not, its apples and oranges, two different types of player. Guys with hines ward ability you can find them anywhere, guys with his intangibles you cant, but guys with his ability you can.

You cannot find guys with baldwins ability. They come around every so often.

And that is where your evaluations go wrong, comparing every receiver with the same criteria, when they are different types of players totally.

I think that with his inability to use his hands and create separation with anything other then pure athleticism, Baldwin will be easy to control and manipulate at the LOS in the NFL. Until he shows hes capable of creating separation by doing something other then running by a DB, hes going to be inferior to guys like Green and Floyd. The fact of the matter is he wont be able to do that in the pros.

Also, would you ******* watch some game tape and not just jack off to Baldwin highlight reels? Hes barely the most physically gifted receiver in his class, and he certainly isnt the best one. He's not the second coming of Jesus and he certainly isn't Randy Moss. Get off his ******* **** for a second, its starting to get annoying

Hines
08-13-2010, 04:03 AM
APS, I jack off to JB highlights.

yourfavestoner
08-13-2010, 04:41 AM
From the limited amount I've seen of him, Pudge's Sydney Rice comparison is looking pretty good right now.

AntoinCD
08-13-2010, 04:44 AM
Unfortunately, there is no basis in reality for the "cons", other than the ass smacking incident. If he rounds off his routes so much, how come he gets open so often. You say he lacks expolsion. Thats hogwash. hes the most explosive guy out there. You say hes not quick, but yet he beats everybody. You say he needs to beat jams and get separation. Nobody can jam and control this guy. Youre going to jam and control jonathan baldwin, play baldwin at the line and try to control him? Think thats going to work? I didnt see any games where baldwin was played man up one on one. The big east thing is immaterial, larry fitz played in the big east.

Youre reaching your using lingo, you sound like nolan nawrocki. Youre speculating that these are weaknesses when there is no proof of such. Youre searching for holes that do not exist. Youre using every wr in the world as the basis for your evaluation when every wr in the world isnt the same. It doesnt matter if jonathan baldwin has great short area quickness, hes not going to.

He has what you cant teach, and what you cant get every day in a wr.

He is a threat to take it to the house on any play, and that threat is going to be increased when he gets balls thrown to him by the superior arms of the nfl. Hes not hines ward, he doesnt need to rely on supposed route running savvy and short area quickness.

All these things you could say the same thing about randy moss or calvin johnson. They are not weaknesses for these players. Its the type of player they are. Every wr is not judged on the same criteria, not every wr performs the same role. Whether randy moss is tough against press man or goes over the middle is immaterial. he is what he is, and what baldwin is, and its that which no amount of supposed savvy or route running or will provide.

He is a threat to take it to the house on any play, and you better put 2 guys on him because one guy isnt going to be able to cover him and him not catch touchdwons and make huge plays. These guys are not a dime a dozen. Baldwin is such a rarity, but yet you compare him as if hes supposed to have hines ward characteristics, and not having hines ward characteristics is supposed weakness. Its not, its apples and oranges, two different types of player. Guys with hines ward ability you can find them anywhere, guys with his intangibles you cant, but guys with his ability you can.

You cannot find guys with baldwins ability. They come around every so often.

And that is where your evaluations go wrong, comparing every receiver with the same criteria, when they are different types of players totally.

You keep mentioning God given ability when talking about Baldwin. Just to clarify I am a big fan but your love fest is way over board. Baldwin is a big, strong, fast guy with good hands and good body control. However he has some real weaknesses which, if not rectified, will affect his draft stock.

Calvin Johnson was the same height as Baldwin, is faster than him, is heavier than him and ran way better routes. He was the best WR prospect I have ever seen.

Randy Moss is simply a freak. Baldwin has neither the short area explosion, nor the long speed that Moss had. Baldwin is a 4.4 guy, which at his size and weight is extremely good. Randy Moss was a 4.2 guy. Simply put, he was a freak.

To get by in the NFL on God given ability, you need to simply be a freak of nature. Baldwin has the size and more than adequate speed, however that alone will not make him a great player in the NFL

FUNBUNCHER
08-13-2010, 11:25 AM
Randy Moss was a 4.28 guy in his early to mid 20s, let's not act like he was kicking out 4.2s his entire career.

Did Calvin Johnson run great routes?? I dunno. Physically he's really similar to Megatron, just facts. CJ ran a 4.35 at the combine, and Baldwin might be a guy capable of running a sub 4.45 in Indy, sick speed for a nearly 6'6 WR.

bce has a good argument in that a 6'4+ WR isn't expected to run routes with the same proficiency of a 6 foot guy, however, if he's not much better with his footwork and setting up his routes, he won't get separation in the NFL and will be forced to outjump DBs for down the field catches.

Now Larry Fitz makes a living doing exactly this, so maybe that's not the worst flaw. Still the kid needs to get better in those aspects of playing WR that require reps and practice and aren't God given.

As for being the most physically gifted prospect in this WR class, I don't think that's really up for debate. He's taller and bigger than Julio Jones and AJ Green, and he's vertically more explosive, going up for the ball, than Michael Floyd.

Of the other three top prospects, Baldwin should clock the fastest 40, by as much as a full tenth of a second.

I think AJ Green could start as a rookie, it may take Baldwin a year in a pro offense before he contributes beyond certain packages.
Doesn't change the fact he's the one WR in this class that intrigues me the most.
Anyway, if Baldwin aspires to be great, not just physically gifted, he's going to need to learn to run better routes.

bce
08-13-2010, 10:50 PM
You keep mentioning God given ability when talking about Baldwin. Just to clarify I am a big fan but your love fest is way over board. Baldwin is a big, strong, fast guy with good hands and good body control. However he has some real weaknesses which, if not rectified, will affect his draft stock.

Calvin Johnson was the same height as Baldwin, is faster than him, is heavier than him and ran way better routes. He was the best WR prospect I have ever seen.

Randy Moss is simply a freak. Baldwin has neither the short area explosion, nor the long speed that Moss had. Baldwin is a 4.4 guy, which at his size and weight is extremely good. Randy Moss was a 4.2 guy. Simply put, he was a freak.

To get by in the NFL on God given ability, you need to simply be a freak of nature. Baldwin has the size and more than adequate speed, however that alone will not make him a great player in the NFL


Rumor has it hes the freak. Baldwin is a very similar prospect to johnson. Except for two things. If he runs 4.4 hes just as fast as calvin johnson, jumps just as high, makes the same type catches, but hes not an injury prone soft serve and hes from aliquippa and aliquippa dont miss. Hes very calvin johnson-esque, and as ive said before, better than johnson.

Again, you cant teach what he has, very few people have that type of god given talent. There is a such thing as pure talent, and generally, pure talent outperforms learned skills.

bce
08-13-2010, 10:53 PM
I dont buy this he runs bad routes argument. It's compensation for the fact that there are very few weaknesses. You cant prove on tape hes not the best guy out there, so there becomes reliance on faux cliams of bad route running and only using athletic ability whilst others who are inferior seem to have nfl level ability in these areas already, again as justification for the fact that they are less talented, so to justify the argument, people have to invent false speculation.

ThePudge
08-13-2010, 11:03 PM
Rumor has it hes the freak. Baldwin is a very similar prospect to johnson. Except for two things. If he runs 4.4 hes just as fast as calvin johnson, jumps just as high, makes the same type catches, but hes not an injury prone soft serve and hes from aliquippa and aliquippa dont miss. Hes very calvin johnson-esque, and as ive said before, better than johnson.

Again, you cant teach what he has, very few people have that type of god given talent. There is a such thing as pure talent, and generally, pure talent outperforms learned skills.

So JaMarcus Russell over Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc.? Chris Henry over Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton? Matt Jones over Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison?

Once again, there's more to football than you seem to understand. Alquippa may be the hometown of Mike Ditka, but other than that you need to realize that Western Pennsylvania is a dump. It's a has-been area for football talent, currently California, Florida, and Texas put out the best talent.

Baldwin has pure athletic talent. Running in a straight line he's one of the best in college football, but the fact is there's more to being an NFL receiver than that. At some point you've got to start using this site as a resource to learn more about football because your range of knowledge is currently very limited.

Hines
08-13-2010, 11:10 PM
So JaMarcus Russell over Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc.? Chris Henry over Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton? Matt Jones over Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison?

Once again, there's more to football than you seem to understand. Alquippa may be the hometown of Mike Ditka, but other than that you need to realize that Western Pennsylvania is a dump. It's a has-been area for football talent, currently California, Florida, and Texas put out the best talent.

Baldwin has pure athletic talent. Running in a straight line he's one of the best in college football, but the fact is there's more to being an NFL receiver than that. At some point you've got to start using this site as a resource to learn more about football because your range of knowledge is currently very limited.

Hey! I resent that. Western PA or PA in general isn't like it was in the past, but you cannot tell me that it's a dump and a "has-been". Maybe you're making a point for him to shut up and leave, but PA does produce talent and it is smaller than those three states you have mentioned.

FUNBUNCHER
08-13-2010, 11:19 PM
There is something in the water in Western PA. No part of the country I bet has produced more NFL HOFers. And we're talking about an area that has a population of what, less than 1.5 million?? ( pure guess, I would not be surprised if it was smaller than that.)

Baldwin may have the greatest upside of the top WR prospects, but as of right now, he's far from a finished, polished prospect.

He won't enter the league with the type of pure athleticism advantage that Randy Moss had and simply be able to one-cut DBs and run past them.

bce
08-13-2010, 11:32 PM
So JaMarcus Russell over Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc.? Chris Henry over Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton? Matt Jones over Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison?

Once again, there's more to football than you seem to understand. Alquippa may be the hometown of Mike Ditka, but other than that you need to realize that Western Pennsylvania is a dump. It's a has-been area for football talent, currently California, Florida, and Texas put out the best talent.

Baldwin has pure athletic talent. Running in a straight line he's one of the best in college football, but the fact is there's more to being an NFL receiver than that. At some point you've got to start using this site as a resource to learn more about football because your range of knowledge is currently very limited.

But you cant prove he doesnt have those other qualities. Youre speculating to compensate for the fact that hes the most gifted guy out there. My basis of jonathan baldwin has little to do with his triangle numbers. It has to do with his game tape. I ve seen him do lots of great things not running in a straight line. You think all he does is run fly patterns. Because you dont know, you just speculate that all he runs are fly patterns because thats what his triangle numbers tell you.

Right use an amateur draft board as a reference. there is occasionally some good information posted, but its never about the top prospects. The only thing i take from here is when someone posts about someone i dont know much about, then i watch an draw my own conclusions. You think i take info from the amateur herd? are you serious?

Per capita, aliquippa is the #1 breeding ground of nfl stars on earth. Youre comparing states with 50 million people to a place with 10,000.

And as for west pa being a dump, ive been to a lot of places and lived in a few others. May not have some of the amentities, but for stability you cant beat it. And football is ingrained in the blood here. It is #1. You cant find that many other places.

katnip
08-14-2010, 12:38 AM
reminds me of brandon marshall. I've never seen Baldwin play a game though. I'm basing this off of size/measurables/athleticism > superman catch vs notre dame

619
08-14-2010, 12:44 AM
reminds me of brandon marshall. I've never seen Baldwin play a game though. I'm basing this off of size/measurables/athleticism > superman catch vs notre dame

Michael Floyd plays the position much more similarly to Brandon Marshall than Jonathan Baldwin.

JHL6719
08-14-2010, 05:14 PM
I think for whatever reason Mississippi gets overlooked as a place that produces more HOF players than people think...

Guys like Brett Favre, Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, Jackie Slater, etc...

Even guys like Steve McNair, Joe Horn, etc. that may not be quite HOF material but very good players nonetheless...

I'm sure I'm forgetting several..

wonderbredd24
08-14-2010, 05:46 PM
in addition to the rest of his nonsensical gibberish, bce is nothing but a homer.

The 2 guys he's pimped the most on here are Jonathan Baldwin and Ben Roethlisberger.

But Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Louisiana all produce a ton of talent in addition to California, Texas, and Florida. That's not even debatable. Arguing otherwise is just silly.

phlysac
08-14-2010, 06:29 PM
Once again, there's more to football than you seem to understand. Alquippa may be the hometown of Mike Ditka, but other than that you need to realize that Western Pennsylvania is a dump. It's a has-been area for football talent, currently California, Florida, and Texas put out the best talent.

I normally think you're spot-on with alot of your analysis, Pudge. However, I think this is abit more than a little overboard.

FUNBUNCHER
08-14-2010, 08:55 PM
in addition to the rest of his nonsensical gibberish, bce is nothing but a homer.

The 2 guys he's pimped the most on here are Jonathan Baldwin and Ben Roethlisberger.

But Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Louisiana all produce a ton of talent in addition to California, Texas, and Florida. That's not even debatable. Arguing otherwise is just silly.

Yeah, except Western PA is TINY. Per capita, it's kind of bizarre to think about the number of superstar players who've basically come from a tiny coal/steel town in Pennsylvania.

It would be like Montana producing HOF talent.

BeerBaron
08-14-2010, 08:57 PM
Yeah, except Western PA is TINY. Per capita, it's kind of bizarre to think about the number of superstar players who've basically come from a tiny coal/steel town in Pennsylvania.

The HoF QBs alone out of Western PA are pretty mind boggling. Montana, Marino and Kelly just off the top of my head.

ThePudge
08-14-2010, 09:05 PM
I normally think you're spot-on with alot of your analysis, Pudge. However, I think this is abit more than a little overboard.

Absolutely, it was something I'd say to bce and no one else. I apologize if I offended anyone from that area and should have been more sensitive to the fact that he's not the only one from that part of the state. The statements are greatly exaggerated and really weren't meant to be taken seriously (or read by anyone else beside bce if I had that option.)

The simple point I was trying to make is: just because he's from Alquippa, it doesn't mean anything at all. I don't recall this state having a pristine reputation for wideouts, Quarterbacks & Linebackers yes, but WRs no. California, Florida, and Texas are indeed the nation's powerhouses when it comes to putting out football talent although states such as Pennsylvania and Ohio are no slouches.

This isn't a discussion topic meant for this thread though so I won't be doing any defending my statement, nor will I be explaining that being from Pennsylvania does give me a certain amount of pride for the talent the state's been able to put out in the past. Once again, I really do apologize for offending anyone as it wasn't a statement I intended for anyone to take seriously. A slip-up on my part. PM me if you're interested in any further discussion on this particular topic.

Now, getting back to Jonathan Baldwin, I can't list being from Alquippa, PA as one of his strengths as a football player. Let's try to talk about strengths/weaknesses/expectations/fits though.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-14-2010, 09:33 PM
bce's reference to Alquippa as it pertains to toughness doesn't make any sense anyhow since Johnson missed one game his entire career with the Yellowjackets and it looks like Baldin missed at least one his first year with Pitt.

FUNBUNCHER
08-14-2010, 09:39 PM
He's a homer, not that much more to it. At some point bce's evaluation of Baldwin is gonna veer into 'giving love to his homeboy'.

As long as you know beforehand, it helps to filter the discussion!lol

yourfavestoner
08-14-2010, 09:46 PM
The HoF QBs alone out of Western PA are pretty mind boggling. Montana, Marino and Kelly just off the top of my head.

Unitas was also born and raised in Pittsburgh.

FUNBUNCHER
08-14-2010, 11:08 PM
From the limited amount I've seen of him, Pudge's Sydney Rice comparison is looking pretty good right now.

Except Baldwin is a lot faster than Sidney Rice.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-14-2010, 11:18 PM
Except Baldwin is a lot faster than Sidney Rice.

Meh, we'll see. Rice managed a 4.53, I'm not completely sold Baldwin will beat that.

Brent
08-14-2010, 11:30 PM
The fact that people are arguing with bce about a Pitt player is sad. The dude is a Pitt homer, of course he's going to never admit to his school's guys not being the best.

bce
08-16-2010, 05:59 PM
Absolutely, it was something I'd say to bce and no one else. I apologize if I offended anyone from that area and should have been more sensitive to the fact that he's not the only one from that part of the state. The statements are greatly exaggerated and really weren't meant to be taken seriously (or read by anyone else beside bce if I had that option.)

The simple point I was trying to make is: just because he's from Alquippa, it doesn't mean anything at all. I don't recall this state having a pristine reputation for wideouts, Quarterbacks & Linebackers yes, but WRs no. California, Florida, and Texas are indeed the nation's powerhouses when it comes to putting out football talent although states such as Pennsylvania and Ohio are no slouches.

This isn't a discussion topic meant for this thread though so I won't be doing any defending my statement, nor will I be explaining that being from Pennsylvania does give me a certain amount of pride for the talent the state's been able to put out in the past. Once again, I really do apologize for offending anyone as it wasn't a statement I intended for anyone to take seriously. A slip-up on my part. PM me if you're interested in any further discussion on this particular topic.

Now, getting back to Jonathan Baldwin, I can't list being from Alquippa, PA as one of his strengths as a football player. Let's try to talk about strengths/weaknesses/expectations/fits though.

It is per capita the greatest breeding ground for star nfl talent on earth. Is it the most important thing, no its not. But theres a simple rule. Aliquippa dont miss. It hasnt missed on players who make it to the nfl. There is something about that place and football players.

Now since its proven that baldwin is the best player, now im just a homer, because thats really all thats left isnt it. Because there arent any valid weaknesses with regards to the type of player he is, just false statements based on triangle numbers and "weaknesses" that are either irrelevant or unproven fabrications by the "faux genius" nawrocki desciple that is pudge.

TACKLE
08-16-2010, 06:06 PM
Because there arent any valid weaknesses with regards to the type of player he is

Do you honestly believe this?

A Perfect Score
08-16-2010, 06:14 PM
In all of the threads about all of these receivers, you have yet to prove anything. You just state the same gibberish over and over and assume eventually we will all think you are right. You havent provided one video, one answer, one reasonable response. All you say is "Baldwin is the best" over and over. Just stop posting. We all know you are wrong.

San Diego Chicken
08-17-2010, 05:59 PM
Incredible playmaker with speed, size, hands, leaping ability - the guy can flat out do it all.

Hines
08-17-2010, 06:15 PM
In all of the threads about all of these receivers, you have yet to prove anything. You just state the same gibberish over and over and assume eventually we will all think you are right. You havent provided one video, one answer, one reasonable response. All you say is "Baldwin is the best" over and over. Just stop posting. We all know you are wrong.

I wouldn't say he's "wrong" about JB being the best. He clearly has the best physical attributes to develop into the best WR in the draft. IMO, the only thing holding him back is his routes. He only knows a few routes it seems from watching him over and over. He's a hard worker, so I have no doubts he will work on to be a better route runner. I also don't think he runs a 4.3. He does not look like that on tape. He looks more like a 4.5 guy. For a guy his size, that's good enough. I love the guy, but it seems like bce might be Jonny B himself. His accesment on Aliquippa is overboard IMO. Yes they've hit on some guys like Dorsett, Ditka, Revis, Law, and potentially Jon Baldwin, but it's not a breeding ground. It's a small area and not a lot of players make it out of there.

Hines
08-17-2010, 06:18 PM
The HoF QBs alone out of Western PA are pretty mind boggling. Montana, Marino and Kelly just off the top of my head.

Marino, Montana, Kelly, Namath, Unitas, Blanda are a few on the top of my head.

ThePudge
08-17-2010, 06:26 PM
Incredible playmaker with speed, size, hands, leaping ability - the guy can flat out do it all.

Except for make hard cuts, hindering his ability to cross the middle or threaten defenses with comeback routes. He also lacks elusiveness with the ball. He can do a lot, but only Calvin Johnson could really do it all.

Sniper
08-17-2010, 06:45 PM
Marino, Montana, Kelly, Namath, Unitas, Blanda are a few on the top of my head.

You forgot arguably the greatest QB from Western Pa.

http://info.detnews.com/pix/sports/2006/um/UMvPSU_1014/UMvPSU12.jpg

P-L
08-17-2010, 08:46 PM
His accesment on Aliquippa is overboard IMO. Yes they've hit on some guys like Dorsett, Ditka, Revis, Law, and potentially Jon Baldwin, but it's not a breeding ground. It's a small area and not a lot of players make it out of there.
You're wrong. Aliquippa don't miss.

Hines
08-17-2010, 08:48 PM
You're wrong. Aliquippa don't miss.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Asshole glasses off, they don't miss when it comes to big time guys. Revis wasn't big time though. Pitt just developed him right. It's not every year that they churn out top end talent because of how small and poor the area is. 2012 watch out for Rushel Shell who is Tony Dorsett's nephew and can go anywhere he wants. He's the next in line for top Quip prospects.

P-L
09-02-2010, 09:51 PM
I'm not watching the game, but what happened to bce's boy? 2 catches for 8 yards through three quarters.

princefielder28
09-02-2010, 09:54 PM
I'm not watching the game, but what happened to bce's boy? 2 catches for 8 yards through three quarters.

quarterback play has been shaky and the interior of the line hasn't help create much of a pocket or protection...bad combo

brat316
09-02-2010, 09:59 PM
quarterback play has been shaky and the interior of the line hasn't help create much of a pocket or protection...bad combo

not to mention the Cb covering him played pretty damn well, for a guy that can jump 40+ the cb made sure to get physical with him.

Hines
09-02-2010, 10:08 PM
Tino Sunseri is hot garbage.

iBoldin
09-02-2010, 10:18 PM
Baldwin just got loose and scored a nice touchdown.

Sunseri just hasn't really been looking for him, he's spread the ball around, but he's rattled and the terrible offensive line doesn't help.

wonderbredd24
09-02-2010, 10:23 PM
I'm not watching the game, but what happened to bce's boy? 2 catches for 8 yards through three quarters.

Aliquippa don't miss

dabears10
09-03-2010, 07:27 AM
The problem I have with Baldwin is that he had 2 or 3 Jump Balls that he did not win. That is a problem for me when considering him Elite.

Shane P. Hallam
09-03-2010, 07:36 AM
I think Baldwin may have enjoyed too much soft serve before last night's game :P

FUNBUNCHER
09-03-2010, 10:07 AM
Baldwin caught the game winning TD but the refs negated his score, saying he wasn't fully set before the snap.

A Perfect Score
09-03-2010, 10:08 AM
Its times like this that I wish bce wasn't banned. I would have loved to hear some excuses for last nights game. Baldwin looked very sloppy.

FUNBUNCHER
09-03-2010, 10:09 AM
The problem I have with Baldwin is that he had 2 or 3 Jump Balls that he did not win. That is a problem for me when considering him Elite.

I'll have to take you word for it, but you make it sound like he was outmuscled or someone outreached him for the ball.

They could have been passes that were off target.

Hard to imagine a 6'6 WR with a 40 inch vert losing a jump ball to a DB. Did he have his hands on the ball and just didn't reel it in??

Can't know without a visual.

yourfavestoner
09-03-2010, 10:25 AM
Its times like this that I wish bce wasn't banned. I would have loved to hear some excuses for last nights game. Baldwin looked very sloppy.

I'm with you. He shouldn't have been banned. Making him eat crow would have been much sweeter and more entertaining. Banning him just makes him feel validated, and let's him know he ruffled feathers and got attention - which is all he really set out to do.

ThePudge
09-03-2010, 01:38 PM
He looked a bit overweight to me, not all too sharp. His hand-eye coordination wasn't on par with what we expected coming into the season, though it was only the first game.

Hines
09-03-2010, 01:54 PM
I'll have to take you word for it, but you make it sound like he was outmuscled or someone outreached him for the ball.

They could have been passes that were off target.

Hard to imagine a 6'6 WR with a 40 inch vert losing a jump ball to a DB. Did he have his hands on the ball and just didn't reel it in??

Can't know without a visual.

Some of the balls were underthrown, where JB had to reach over the defender. If they were thrown up, JB would have brought them down. Utah's CB(I forget his name right now) played very well with him and was in his face all game.

He looked a bit overweight to me, not all too sharp. His hand-eye coordination wasn't on par with what we expected coming into the season, though it was only the first game.

He looked pretty slow. While that is expected for a tall dude, he doesn't have the 4.3 speed that is being rumored. I think he runs in the 4.55 range.

dabears10
09-03-2010, 02:08 PM
I'll have to take you word for it, but you make it sound like he was outmuscled or someone outreached him for the ball.

They could have been passes that were off target.

Hard to imagine a 6'6 WR with a 40 inch vert losing a jump ball to a DB. Did he have his hands on the ball and just didn't reel it in??

Can't know without a visual.

They weren't thrown well but they were pretty much 50-50 balls and he didn't come away the victor. The corner played well, but that will be more of the example he would see in the NFL.

Also, it will be interesting to see Floyd go against the same team later in the year.

hockey619
09-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Its a shame BCE is gone. all those trolls show up for the offseason to cause a stir then leave during the regular season when they coulda been proven wrong so easily had they stayed. shame. it was always fun to try and watch him worm his way out of his hypocratic bs.

dude had one big play and it was due to broken coverage. he better step up or aliquippa might miss.

Hines
09-03-2010, 06:46 PM
Its a shame BCE is gone. all those trolls show up for the offseason to cause a stir then leave during the regular season when they coulda been proven wrong so easily had they stayed. shame. it was always fun to try and watch him worm his way out of his hypocratic bs.

dude had one big play and it was due to broken coverage. he better step up or aliquippa might miss.

It was one game and he has a crappy quarterback to feed him the ball. I wouldn't call him a bad prospect after that.

FUNBUNCHER
09-03-2010, 07:55 PM
Um, I think Baldwin won that game if not for a questionable call by the refs that took a TD off the board.

hockey619
03-05-2011, 03:37 PM
Bump.

What are people thinking about Baldwin now?

and when do you think this years official troll (bce, starheather before that) is gunna show up?

yourfavestoner
03-05-2011, 03:42 PM
Aliquippa don't miss.

Babylon
03-05-2011, 03:51 PM
Based on the combine he's a lot better athlete than i thought, ran a high 4.4, 42" vertical and 10-9 broad jump at 230 lbs. Impressive.

the thing to remember is he never really had a strong armed QB to get him the ball and it seemed to frustrate him. Seems very underrated to me.

ElectricEye
03-05-2011, 03:57 PM
Very good athlete, very raw as a receiver. This was a bad year for him on the field and part of that has to do with quarterback play. He's probably in the second round range at this point, but you never know. Really don't like that he ripped Sunseri publicly though. That's are job, not his.

Saints-Tigers
03-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Probably like Vincent Jackson where he blows up in a few years.

regoob2
03-05-2011, 06:58 PM
I still think he's a 1st round pick.

FUNBUNCHER
03-05-2011, 08:34 PM
Probably like Vincent Jackson where he blows up in a few years.

That's where I see his upside too, a guy who can get downfield on those deeper routes, or just fly on a go route.

Every NFL team loves to have a big WR with wheels, even the Pats.

DBNYDP
03-05-2011, 08:36 PM
I might actually be in the minority but I expected him to do a bit better at the combine. I think he's a late 1st/early 2nd right now, but if Jones/Green go early a team like the Rams just might take him.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
03-06-2011, 07:07 AM
I still think he's a 1st round pick.

I think he is too..

Bears?

Matthew Jones
03-06-2011, 07:25 AM
He's the kind of guy a team could fall in love with physically and take in the first round, but there's no way in hell I'm the one pulling the trigger. Way too many warning signs there - threw QB/coaching staff under the bus, arrested in 2009, work ethic and heart questioned, etc. His bust factor is off the charts.

Hines
03-06-2011, 07:57 AM
He's the kind of guy a team could fall in love with physically and take in the first round, but there's no way in hell I'm the one pulling the trigger. Way too many warning signs there - threw QB/coaching staff under the bus, arrested in 2009, work ethic and heart questioned, etc. His bust factor is off the charts.

The arrest was bogus IMO. All he did was grab a girls ass and some higher authority saw it and ya. Baldwin works hard, he just takes plays off. Might be a contradiction, but he puts in a lot of work as a player.

regoob2
03-06-2011, 08:14 AM
I think he is too..

Bears?
If FA comes before the draft and we can grab a starting O linemen Id be all over him. He's exactly what we need. I cant see us going anywhere other than OL if FA is after the draft though.

Hines
03-06-2011, 08:17 AM
As long as Baldwin doesn't go to NE, Baltimore, Cincy, Oakland, or Cleveland, I don't think I'd care where he goes.

FUNBUNCHER
03-06-2011, 08:43 AM
He's the kind of guy a team could fall in love with physically and take in the first round, but there's no way in hell I'm the one pulling the trigger. Way too many warning signs there - threw QB/coaching staff under the bus, arrested in 2009, work ethic and heart questioned, etc. His bust factor is off the charts.


Wannstedt was fired and his QB is a bum.


Guess Baldwin was right.

His work ethic off the field or 'heart' as far as I know have never been seriously questioned.

Bust factor off the charts?? Not quite.

Iamcanadian
03-06-2011, 10:11 AM
I like Baldwin, big, fast, with great feet. I see him as a late 1st rounder.

derza222
03-06-2011, 11:35 AM
He's going to be working out with Revis, thought that was interesting.

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2011/02/25/wr-baldwin-to-work-wrevis/

J-Mike88
03-08-2011, 10:05 PM
Lotta Packer fans expecting him to come in and bolster an already-stocked WR core.

Can Baldwin return kicks?
I was surprised how good Dez Bryant was returning punts for Dallas.....JB has to be too tall for a return man....

regoob2
03-08-2011, 10:08 PM
Lotta Packer fans expecting him to come in and bolster an already-stocked WR core.

Can Baldwin return kicks?
I was surprised how good Dez Bryant was returning punts for Dallas.....JB has to be too tall for a return man....I highly doubt he can return kicks. He's not elusive and doesnt break a lot of tackles.

K Train
03-09-2011, 05:22 PM
He's going to be working out with Revis, thought that was interesting.

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2011/02/25/wr-baldwin-to-work-wrevis/

why? the both are pitt players from alliquippa

JFINK11
03-09-2011, 06:32 PM
My impression of Baldwin:

What ball skills? I have watched every game of Jon Baldwin in the Pitt uniform and do not recall one game of him having good, rather than elite ball skills. Most notably his adjustments to the ball in the air that is misthrown. His abillity to high point a ball is extremely weak. when they talk abotu going up and getting it or not waiting for the ball to come to you they should show some of his highlights. If you dont believe me just watch one of his good games against West Virginia (not the game with Tino Sunseri....with the 2nd team all big east bill stull).... Hes all freak athlete and huge production against he mediocre defenses of the Big East. That being said, when the ball hits his hands its usually his. he just doesnt get there often enough for me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sPxeIzAzTo

good player but not a first round pick in my book