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Complex
08-05-2010, 04:04 PM
the 2001 NFL Draft.


Chad Ochocinco
Receptions:684
Rec. Yards: 9952
TDs:62

Reggie Wayne
Recetptions: 676
Rec. Yards: 9393
TDS: 63

Steve Smith
Receptions: 574
REC. Yards: 8330
TDS: 50

Santana Moss
Receptions: 500
Rec. Yards:7443
TDS: 46

Chris Chambers
Receptions: 518
Rec. Yards: 7435
TDS: 57

or
Touraj Houshmandzadeh
Receptions: 586
Rec. Yards: 6693
TDs: 40

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_career.htm

K Train
08-05-2010, 04:12 PM
i would think it would be wayne in a blowout

even though i do love steve smith

Ness
08-05-2010, 04:12 PM
I think it's a three way tie between Smith, Wayne, and Ochocinco.

A Perfect Score
08-05-2010, 04:14 PM
I voted for Steve Smith. Ive always been a fan of his style and the attitude with which he played the game, and I think if you give him 9 years with Peyton Manning, you would see some very impressive stats that would rival anything Reggie Wayne has done with him.

LonghornsLegend
08-05-2010, 04:20 PM
i would think it would be wayne in a blowout

even though i do love steve smith

A blowout? Lol. Some of your post are funny to me.



I voted for Steve Smith. He has had average at best QB play for his entire career, never had a #2 WR, never had a TE, doesn't have size to his advantage, but he goes out and does it year in and out, and his 2005 season was the best individual season out of everyone on the list.

Shane P. Hallam
08-05-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm going with Ocho here. He is just such a polished WR and on a better team consistently, I think could have been huge. Rarely injured, always gives his all.

Saints-Tigers
08-05-2010, 04:24 PM
Steve Smith easy when he's healthy.

I think I like Wayne over Ocho too.

K Train
08-05-2010, 04:30 PM
A blowout? Lol. Some of your post are funny to me.



I voted for Steve Smith. He has had average at best QB play for his entire career, never had a #2 WR, never had a TE, doesn't have size to his advantage, but he goes out and does it year in and out, and his 2005 season was the best individual season out of everyone on the list.

my bad i thought this poll was for the best WR out of the 2001 class, not who the who might be the best WR if they were on a better team with an elite QB, a #2 WR, and TE.

wayne has consistently produced, its not his fault the colts have other options...and he DOES have size to his advantage, and hes a better team mate.

i like smith a lot, mostly because he decked ken lucas in the face but wayne is a better WR to me if i had to pick one to be my #1. and i said i would think in a blowout, not that i think it should be one...i really wasnt expecting smith to get so much love

descendency
08-05-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm torn between Steve Smith and Reggie Wayne. I've seen tons of both.

wicket
08-05-2010, 04:33 PM
smith>wayne>johnson

dont even know why the other three are in the poll

LonghornsLegend
08-05-2010, 04:39 PM
my bad i thought this poll was for the best WR out of the 2001 class, not who the who might be the best WR if they were on a better team with an elite QB, a #2 WR, and TE.

wayne has consistently produced, its not his fault the colts have other options...and he DOES have size to his advantage, and hes a better team mate.

i like smith a lot, mostly because he decked ken lucas in the face but wayne is a better WR to me if i had to pick one to be my #1. and i said i would think in a blowout, not that i think it should be one...i really wasnt expecting smith to get so much love



What's your point? Nobody said it was Wayne's fault for his scenario, but let's not act like if SS wasn't playing for the Colts his stats wouldn't look exactly the same.


The fact that SS hasn't had any help what so ever, and still produced is alot more impressive to me then what Wayne has done. Besides that, throwing stats out of the window SS is the superior WR IMO in all aspects. Having size to your advantage doesn't make you a better WR, it just shows that if you don't it's alot more impressive.



Unless you really don't think it's easier to rack up stats and consistency with a HOFer throwing you the football with an elite TE, vs the guy who has had Jake Delhomme and no help at all.

keylime_5
08-05-2010, 04:40 PM
Wayne or Smith. I voted Smith. He had a couple seasons where he was uncoverable and a great return man too, plus he never had Peyton Manning or Marvin Harrison helping him look so good. I get the feeling that Steve Smith on the Colts would've done even better than Reggie Wayne.

Saints-Tigers
08-05-2010, 04:41 PM
PRoblem with Smith is that he's literally been injured more than he's been healthy. Even when he's in the game, you can bet he's nursing some bad injury, haha.

He's like Bob Sanders, if he stops doing the things that get him injured, he's not the special player.

Whenever you see that explosive and ridiculous Smith, that's him fully healthy.

I'll take Wayne if I have to build a team from scratch with one, but I think Smiff is unquestionably better if we are talking fully healthy.

A Perfect Score
08-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Dont forget Reggie Wayne played opposite Marvin Harrison most of his career. It wasnt like Wayne was facing the same double and triple teams Smith faced. Not to mention, their ability to run after the catch isn't even comparable. Smith is a terror, and Im not sure Ive ever seen Reggie Wayne make a play after the ball is in his hands.

K Train
08-05-2010, 04:46 PM
What's your point? Nobody said it was Wayne's fault for his scenario, but let's not act like if SS wasn't playing for the Colts his stats wouldn't look exactly the same.


The fact that SS hasn't had any help what so ever, and still produced is alot more impressive to me then what Wayne has done. Besides that, throwing stats out of the window SS is the superior WR IMO in all aspects. Having size to your advantage doesn't make you a better WR, it just shows that if you don't it's alot more impressive.



Unless you really don't think it's easier to rack up stats and consistency with a HOFer throwing you the football with an elite TE, vs the guy who has had Jake Delhomme and no help at all.
ive always said smith is like 5-9 but plays like hes 9 feet tall, which is something i love about him. no doubt wayne is in a much much much better situation, one that he is almost forced to succeed in, and im sure smith would do great in the same situation...maybe better, maybe not, but its not like the panthers have always been a bad team and there was one point where delhomme was a somewhat respectable QB and they were yearly playoff contenders so while jake **** the bed in recent years its not like smith was in the worst situation imaginable.

i think it could go either way honestly, but i really didnt expect smith to get so much love from everyone either. so again, i didnt mean it should be a blowout

Brent
08-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Steve Smith does have a YAC career average which is about double Wayne's, and a better YPC.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
08-05-2010, 04:54 PM
Dont forget Reggie Wayne played opposite Marvin Harrison most of his career. It wasnt like Wayne was facing the same double and triple teams Smith faced. Not to mention, their ability to run after the catch isn't even comparable. Smith is a terror, and Im not sure Ive ever seen Reggie Wayne make a play after the ball is in his hands.

Is that such a bad thing? He put up great numbers and was not a number one option. When Marvin missed most of 2007 Wayne put up the best numbers of his career.

hockey619
08-05-2010, 04:54 PM
A blowout? Lol. Some of your post are funny to me.



I voted for Steve Smith. He has had average at best QB play for his entire career, never had a #2 WR, never had a TE, doesn't have size to his advantage, but he goes out and does it year in and out, and his 2005 season was the best individual season out of everyone on the list.

Mushin Muhammad used to be pretty legit on the panthers before he got old. so yes at some point he did have a pretty good number two with him, at least for a while anyways.

Delhomme sucked in recent years, a lot actually, but back in the day he helped his team to the super bowl. he wasnt always terrible.

Dont forget Reggie Wayne played opposite Marvin Harrison most of his career. It wasnt like Wayne was facing the same double and triple teams Smith faced. Not to mention, their ability to run after the catch isn't even comparable. Smith is a terror, and Im not sure Ive ever seen Reggie Wayne make a play after the ball is in his hands.


Cant remember where, but I read a while back that in an interview or something with the colts recievers, they said theyd usually try to hit the ground fast and not risk getting stripped and just get the ball back to Peyton and let him do his thing. just some food for thought.

LonghornsLegend
08-05-2010, 05:18 PM
Mushin Muhammad used to be pretty legit on the panthers before he got old. so yes at some point he did have a pretty good number two with him, at least for a while anyways.

Delhomme sucked in recent years, a lot actually, but back in the day he helped his team to the super bowl. he wasnt always terrible.
.

Absolutely, I should have never said that Smith "never" had a #2 WR, but in all honestly Moose was only dominant the season that Smith broke his leg. He had 3 elite seasons in his career, 2 came before Smith was drafted, and the 3rd came when Smith missed the entire season. Other then that he was a guy good for 800 yards and 3 TD's, solid, but nothing that made a defense lose sleep.


And I know Delhomme wasn't crap forever, but he has alot to do with Steve Smiths' stats. He has never thrown for 4000 yards, never thrown for 30 TD's, and he really only had 2 semi-productive seasons and SS missed one of those seasons when he broke his leg.


He wasn't a scrub, he was average, but it's a far cry from someone who gets Peyton Manning to catch passes from and plays in an offense that throws the ball as much as the Colts do.


I'd probably go as far to say that SS has had two individual seasons better then anything Wayne has done. I firmly believe SS's 2005 season was, but even in 2008 when he racked up over 1400 yards, 6 TD's and averaged an off the chart YPC of 18.2


All things considered, especially with how there was no help at all that year, and Delhomme was trash by then, I'd place that above Wayne's best season which was 2007 IMO.


It's really hard to do the argument "switch places", but I don't think Wayne has a season that dominant on the Panthers in 2008 even though I consider him an elite WR. Wayne did have more yards, catches, and TD's but I have to take the situation of both into consideration while looking at those numbers.

LonghornsLegend
08-05-2010, 05:26 PM
Just to add on that, the Panthers have been a running team for awhile now. Delhomme was usually throwing the ball around 430 times a game, quite a few times in the high 300 range. Peyton is typically over the 550 mark, and considering he's such an effective passer that is at least going to have some sway in stats.


I would probably need to see targets to be more accurate, because Peyton has more people to throw to considering Clark is a big part of the offense, but 130+ more throws a season is a big difference.

hockey619
08-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Absolutely, I should have never said that Smith "never" had a #2 WR, but in all honestly Moose was only dominant the season that Smith broke his leg. He had 3 elite seasons in his career, 2 came before Smith was drafted, and the 3rd came when Smith missed the entire season. Other then that he was a guy good for 800 yards and 3 TD's, solid, but nothing that made a defense lose sleep.


And I know Delhomme wasn't crap forever, but he has alot to do with Steve Smiths' stats. He has never thrown for 4000 yards, never thrown for 30 TD's, and he really only had 2 semi-productive seasons and SS missed one of those seasons when he broke his leg.


He wasn't a scrub, he was average, but it's a far cry from someone who gets Peyton Manning to catch passes from and plays in an offense that throws the ball as much as the Colts do.


I'd probably go as far to say that SS has had two individual seasons better then anything Wayne has done. I firmly believe SS's 2005 season was, but even in 2008 when he racked up over 1400 yards, 6 TD's and averaged an off the chart YPC of 18.2


All things considered, especially with how there was no help at all that year, and Delhomme was trash by then, I'd place that above Wayne's best season which was 2007 IMO.


It's really hard to do the argument "switch places", but I don't think Wayne has a season that dominant on the Panthers in 2008 even though I consider him an elite WR. Wayne did have more yards, catches, and TD's but I have to take the situation of both into consideration while looking at those numbers.


oh im not saying smith sucks or anything of the sort, not at all. just thought moose needed some respect.

honestly, i dont consider wayne elite at all. two random guys (garcon, collie)
got plugged into that line up and played well too. I think if they switched spots wayne would be a solid reciever and good number 2 but i wouldnt see him as a star. I think he gets very overrated around here. hes good, not great.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-05-2010, 05:31 PM
It is a three man conversation, although it was nice that you included Housh, Moss, and ......Chris Chambers(??). Tough to decide on the three, as all have had very impressive seasons and careers. I'd need to look at the numbers a little more. My heart says Wayne, but it is such a close race that he very well could be number 3....Choosing is difficult and moot really.

BeerBaron
08-05-2010, 05:39 PM
When he was younger and healthy, Steve Smith was a nightmare. My poor Bears in....2005? I think it was. The playoff game Grossman started....Steve Smith was absolutely unstoppable.

Wayne has been a lot more consistent, and hasn't had to carry the passing game like Smith has had to, but I think he's less spectacular.

And Ocho is somewhere in the middle.

Just looked up Smith's stats: 12 catches, 218 yards, 2 TDs. That hurt.

Shiver
08-05-2010, 05:42 PM
Reggie Wayne is pathetically average. Put him on the Panthers and see what happens to his career. Steve Smith, while I hate his guts, is by far the best player in this class.

Nalej
08-05-2010, 05:55 PM
I think it's ridiculous how underrated Chad 85 is in this thread.
I struggled to choose between SS and 85 and leaved towards 85 due to SS's injury history.
I agree with everyone's knock on Wayne. While I think it' above average- he's below both 85 and SS to me.

fenikz
08-05-2010, 06:00 PM
Wayne


Smith
Ochocinco




Everyone else

prock
08-05-2010, 06:00 PM
I voted Wayne, and then I thought about it and I really wish I could change my vote to Smith. He is one of the toughest sons a bitches out there and puts up numbers basically by himself.

J-Mike88
08-05-2010, 06:00 PM
Reggie Wayne is pathetically average. Put him on the Panthers and see what happens to his career. Steve Smith, while I hate his guts, is by far the best player in this class.
^this^
Had Wayne been catching passes from Delhomme and Chris Weinke his whole career, Reggie'd be in the same breath as, say, Santana Moss or Derrick Mason, at best.
And had Steve Smith been catching passes in a dome from Peyton Manning? Wow.

LOL @ Chris Chambers being included in the poll !
I like it.

Go_Eagles77
08-05-2010, 06:26 PM
What no Freddie Mitchell?

Saints-Tigers
08-05-2010, 06:39 PM
Hah, well, at least we know half this forum shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion.

Brent
08-05-2010, 06:44 PM
Hah, well, at least we know half this forum shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion.
yes, because if you don't agree with someone, they don't count.

mdmgrand
08-05-2010, 06:44 PM
It's Ochocinco...... hands down....

But I fully believe that if alcohol and other drugs were not involved..... Koren Robinson would have been the best... He had the best Size/Speed ratio and the YAC ability...

Saints-Tigers
08-05-2010, 06:51 PM
yes, because if you don't agree with someone, they don't count.

If you think Reggie Wayne is pathetically average, you really don't count.

descendency
08-05-2010, 06:54 PM
Steve Smith had a the best single year of any of those WRs but Wayne has been more consistent.

MetSox17
08-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Gotta love the consistency that Wayne has brought over the years, but based on playmaking ability alone, i'm choosing Smith. He's truly elite when healthy, and if he were to ever get a decent QB to play with, he'd put up All-Pro numbers on a yearly basis.

Splat
08-05-2010, 08:14 PM
The real Steve Smith.

Complex
08-05-2010, 08:41 PM
Why does Chad have 4x less votes than Reggie Wayne?

They almost have the same stats and Reggie played with Peyton.I know stats aren't everything but has even been great in the playoffs like Steve Smith...

Brent
08-05-2010, 08:44 PM
If you think Reggie Wayne is pathetically average, you really don't count.
I never said it, I was just poking fun on such an absolute statement.

Splat
08-05-2010, 08:44 PM
Not everyone likes Chad being Chad.

Malaka
08-05-2010, 10:09 PM
In my opinion its a really close race but Steve Smith takes the cake, with Chad coming second and Wayne going third.

On pure ability, regardless of system or stats, Smith is easily the best WR. He plays with a chip on his shoulder and always kicks ass. However his problem is he is injured a lot of the time. I could see the case against him, but maybe I like to take risks, I'd pick him before the other two.

On the other hand if you want consistency, Wayne and Chad have been the definition of it. Year in and year out they produce. It's a real toss up, and although Wayne has proven he can be a number one receiver no problem since Harrison left, I'd take Chad because he has been top dog ever since he became a starter, and Housh was no slouch.

Rosebud
08-05-2010, 10:20 PM
I think it's Chad, he's got the best numbers and has had the most time in the top tier of NFL receivers. Wayne's better right now, but if Carson Palmer can get his **** together and the other guys they brought in work out I think Chad could be putting up elite numbers again. He's a tough dude, who's a very skilled receiver and hasn't yet fallen off.

Steve Smith has the most dominant peaks but his injuries and inconsistencies to me are the deciding factor. Also I don't see a major resurgence coming either since I think LaFell will be mediocre, Clausen just solid and Moore adequate at best.

Reggie Wayne has the best chance to build on his resume IMO and right now is very close to chad number wise, although he's had a much better situation in which to build that resume, which is why again I had to go with Ochocinco.

nepg
08-05-2010, 10:25 PM
I'm surprised at how well Chris Chambers has kept up with this group despite having a few bad years.

I went with Chad. He's the best all-around guy in this group, and I just think he executes better than any of the other WRs.

nepg
08-05-2010, 10:27 PM
Why does Chad have 4x less votes than Reggie Wayne?

They almost have the same stats and Reggie played with Peyton.I know stats aren't everything but has even been great in the playoffs like Steve Smith...

Ya, I think it's silly. Chad also faces the other team's best corner every week, while Reggie Wayne has dealt with #2 and Nickel CBs until the last year or two.

Go_Eagles77
08-05-2010, 10:29 PM
I voted for Reggie Wayne based off right now, but I think Ochocinco and Steve Smith both had better careers, and at one point both could have been argued as being the best WR in the league, and I don't know if Wayne was ever in that argument.

Shiver
08-05-2010, 10:33 PM
Someone give me that pro-Wayne argument, I would love to see it. He is the ultimate example of situation based production. What does he do exceptionally? Does he have elite speed? Is he physically dominant? Are defenses afraid of him beating them? No, no and no. He is average at best. He has never, ever been considered an elite receiver. Let alone best in the league. Steve Smith has and Chad Johnson was closer to elite than Wayne ever has been.

Bengalsrocket
08-05-2010, 11:39 PM
I voted Wayne to try and avoid the bias of picking Chad.

My pro Wayne argument over Steve Smith is consistency and durability. Two things I appreciate in players that other people might not care about. I know a lot of people like to think Bo Jackson could have been a Hall of Famer, but the problem is that he wasn't. If you can't stay on the field, then that hurts your team. I'm not saying it's the player's fault when they get injured (though in Steve Smith's case it might actually be his fault sometimes).

Meanwhile, I'm sure Peyton Manning appreciates Wayne's consistency. He runs good routes, rarely drops a pass and never gives up. I'm not saying Steve Smith doesn't do these things, I just think Wayne is better at them.

Lastly, being a #2 receiver works two ways. Yes, you deal with the 2nd best corner and rarely get double teamed. However, that also means you're the 2nd target on most of the plays (if not all of the plays - depending on playbook / quarterback).

A Perfect Score
08-06-2010, 12:26 AM
For all the fuss being made about Steve Smith's injuries, last year was the first year since 04/05 that he didnt put up 1000 yards, and he was 18 short. I understand that he has had some durability issues, but you guys are making it seem like its severely limiting his ability to produce, which it isnt.

Furthermore, everyone citing Wayne's consistency aren't really looking at the numbers. Steve Smith has averaged more Yards per game during his career, has a better YPC average, and as Brent posted, almost a double YAC average. The only major statistical advantage Wayne possesses would be total yards and TDs, which are admittedly important, but Im willing to call it negligent at this point since Wayne gets to play with Manning every week.

Dam8610
08-06-2010, 01:06 AM
Reggie Wayne is pathetically average. Put him on the Panthers and see what happens to his career. Steve Smith, while I hate his guts, is by far the best player in this class.

Please justify the "Reggie Wayne is pathetically average" statement. Just watching him play and some of the ridiculous catches he's made over the years, I don't get how anyone could actually mean that statement.

Dam8610
08-06-2010, 01:16 AM
Someone give me that pro-Wayne argument, I would love to see it. He is the ultimate example of situation based production. What does he do exceptionally? Does he have elite speed? Is he physically dominant? Are defenses afraid of him beating them? No, no and no. He is average at best. He has never, ever been considered an elite receiver. Let alone best in the league. Steve Smith has and Chad Johnson was closer to elite than Wayne ever has been.

Apparently he must be doing something right, because he's been the #1 receiving threat on a team that hasn't had a running game but has maintained an effective offense for the past two seasons. Anyone who has watched him play knows he has great hands, body control, and route running ability, all three of which are usually traits the best WRs possess. So if Wayne has never been close to elite, why has he had 6 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 5 straight 80+ catch seasons?

Malaka
08-06-2010, 01:27 AM
Pathetically average is going overboard. However, I agree with Shiver when he said physically Wayne has never been considered "elite" and his physical tools are not as good as the two we are comparing him too.

Shoot me now if you wish, but I can see Reggie being a product of the system, being in that offense with Peyton Manning and Harrison.

Now let me defend myself. I see a very striking comparison in New York's Steve Smith with Reggie Wayne. Both run excellent routes, neither are physically or athletically dominant, and both managed to step up and be the number one man when their teams' previous number ones (Plaxico/Harrison) left. Wayne may be a little bigger and faster but I can't help but compare these two.

Smith (NYG) is a great player, however would anyone venture to call him one of the best in the league? I think not, but I think if Steve Smith was plugged in for Wayne on the Colts he would produce eerily similar numbers. Maybe I am a Giants homer and I am overrating Smith, but whatever.

This is why I rank Wayne third behind Smith (Car) and Chad. I just don't think he is average, I just don't see him on the level of Smith or Ochocinco's.

Shiver
08-06-2010, 01:38 AM
to be fair, in the limited indy games i've seen, i thought he ran some of the better routes i've seen. and to be fair, a WRs ability to get the timing down with a qb is extraordinarily overrated. sure, when you're talking about elite guys, it shouldn't be an issue (or they'd quickly stop being elite), but wayne does it better than anyone else on that list.

*shrug* it's weak, but then, i think smith's better. though i don't think i'd call wayne 'average'.

edit: i wanted to add that, beyond anything on field, to my knowledge, wayne just shuts up and plays. it's entirely possible that i missed something, but i'm not aware of him getting ejected from games (which sort of limits one's effectiveness), or spending half his time thinking of ways to dance after he gets into the end zone.

To be fair, Marvin Harrison was quiet and just played. Until we found out he was Tony Montana later on, lol.

For all the fuss being made about Steve Smith's injuries, last year was the first year since 04/05 that he didnt put up 1000 yards, and he was 18 short. I understand that he has had some durability issues, but you guys are making it seem like its severely limiting his ability to produce, which it isnt.

Furthermore, everyone citing Wayne's consistency aren't really looking at the numbers. Steve Smith has averaged more Yards per game during his career, has a better YPC average, and as Brent posted, almost a double YAC average. The only major statistical advantage Wayne possesses would be total yards and TDs, which are admittedly important, but Im willing to call it negligent at this point since Wayne gets to play with Manning every week.

Very good points.

This poll and its results prove that fantasy football has metastasized and corrupted how we evaluate players. Watching them on the field Steve Smith is the better player by a mile.

Shiver
08-06-2010, 01:42 AM
Apparently he must be doing something right, because he's been the #1 receiving threat on a team that hasn't had a running game but has maintained an effective offense for the past two seasons. Anyone who has watched him play knows he has great hands, body control, and route running ability, all three of which are usually traits the best WRs possess. So if Wayne has never been close to elite, why has he had 6 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 5 straight 80+ catch seasons?


List of players who would produce identical numbers to Reggie Wayne if put in the same system:

Andre Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Randy Moss
Anquan Boldin
Chad Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Roddy White
Steve Smith (CAR)
Greg Jennings
Vincent Jackson
DeSean Jackson
Calvin Johnson
Hines Ward
Lee Evans
Santonio Holmes
Santana Moss
Marques Colston*

At least, with a few more players on the way up, but haven't shown enough yet. Fact is Wayne is a system guy. It is the same argument I made against Wes Welker a few months ago. He is a average #1 WR. (let me make this clear: not receiver overall, because he was once one of the best #2 in the game)

*Reggie Wayne is a lot like Marques Colston in a way.

Dam8610
08-06-2010, 01:43 AM
Pathetically average is going overboard. However, I agree with Shiver when he said physically Wayne has never been considered "elite" and his physical tools are not as good as the two we are comparing him too.

Some of the best WRs of all time didn't have "elite" physical tools either. Jerry Rice immediately comes to mind. What Wayne does have going for him physically is great hands and ridiculous body control (he tends to make a lot of circus sideline catches that you wouldn't see from 95+% of the WRs in the NFL).

Shoot me now if you wish, but I can see Reggie being a product of the system, being in that offense with Peyton Manning and Harrison.

That would be a valid argument, except that Wayne's best season came as the #1 option. He's also IMO done exceptionally well the past couple of seasons considering that defenses have been able to focus more on him due to a complete lack of a running game.

Now let me defend myself. I see a very striking comparison in New York's Steve Smith with Reggie Wayne. Both run excellent routes, neither are physically or athletically dominant, and both managed to step up and be the number one man when their teams' previous number ones (Plaxico/Harrison) left. Wayne may be a little bigger and faster but I can't help but compare these two.

Smith (NYG) is a great player, however would anyone venture to call him one of the best in the league? I think not, but I think if Steve Smith was plugged in for Wayne on the Colts he would produce eerily similar numbers. Maybe I am a Giants homer and I am overrating Smith, but whatever.

Smith lacks the body control. I think that's the thing a lot of people miss with Wayne, especially since it doesn't show up in a stat sheet or combine drill. Watch Wayne play consistently, and quite a few times throughout any given season, you'll find yourself saying "Did he really just make that catch?"

This is why I rank Wayne third behind Smith (Car) and Chad. I just don't think he is average, I just don't see him on the level of Smith or Ochocinco's.

I can respect an opinion that has Wayne behind Steve Smith though I disagree with it. I'd rather have the durability and consistency, as well as the lack of showmanship.

Shiver
08-06-2010, 01:52 AM
Smith lacks the body control. I think that's the thing a lot of people miss with Wayne, especially since it doesn't show up in a stat sheet or combine drill. Watch Wayne play consistently, and quite a few times throughout any given season, you'll find yourself saying "Did he really just make that catch?"


Wait, what?! hahaha

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/29367/original/shipment-of-fail.jpg


(not saying Wayne doesn't have great body control, but to say Smith doesn't is so stupid I don't know what to say.)
I can respect an opinion that has Wayne behind Steve Smith though I disagree with it. I'd rather have the durability and consistency, as well as the lack of showmanship.For emphasis:

Steve Smith has averaged more Yards per game during his career, has a better YPC average, and as Brent posted, almost a double YAC average. Argument fail.

Dam8610
08-06-2010, 01:54 AM
List of players who would produce identical numbers to Reggie Wayne if put in the same system:

Andre Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Randy Moss
Anquan Boldin
Chad Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Roddy White
Steve Smith (CAR)
Greg Jennings
Vincent Jackson
DeSean Jackson
Calvin Johnson
Hines Ward
Santonio Holmes
Marques Colston*

At least, with a few more players on the way up, but haven't shown enough yet. Fact is Wayne is a system guy. It is the same argument I made against Wes Welker a few months ago.

*Reggie Wayne is a lot like Marques Colston in a way.

Pretty sure all the WRs you listed are at least considered elite by some, with the possible exceptions of Vincent Jackson and Santonio Holmes, both of which I'd have to say I disagree with your assessment on (also disagree on Hines Ward, but I think he's very overrated). Regardless, how does "#1 option on an effective pass heavy offense" translate to "pathetically average"?

As for comparing Wayne to Welker, that is pure comedy. Welker is a #2 option whose entire game is based around having coverage taken away from him so he can get the ball in space, make the first defender miss, and get a first down out of a 3-5 yard pass. Wayne has been the #1 option for the Colts the past three seasons, has constantly faced doubles and rolled coverage, and has still managed to produce despite the lack of a running game for the past two seasons. How is that vast gap not obvious to you?

Malaka
08-06-2010, 01:59 AM
Some of the best WRs of all time didn't have "elite" physical tools either. Jerry Rice immediately comes to mind. What Wayne does have going for him physically is great hands and ridiculous body control (he tends to make a lot of circus sideline catches that you wouldn't see from 95+% of the WRs in the NFL).

I wrote that wrong, and I knew you'd probably see it. I meant he doesn't stretch the field, or catch jumpballs 10 feet in the air. I wasn't knocking him, just stating what type of receiver he is.


That would be a valid argument, except that Wayne's best season came as the #1 option. He's also IMO done exceptionally well the past couple of seasons considering that defenses have been able to focus more on him due to a complete lack of a running game.

No you misunderstood what I tried to get across. You're insinuating that I am arguing that Wayne is a mediocre receiver. I stated he stepped up when his number one left. Just because he didn't eff up doesn't mean he isn't a product of the system. Peyton Manning definitely helps Wayne a lot. Steve Smith (NYG) produced without a running game in NYG as well, he racked up similar numbers to Wayne who played with Peyton Manning. I think you give Smith those years of mentorship under Harrison and Peyton, you got yourself the same exact player. I'll ask again would you call Steve Smith (NYG) a top ten receiver/elite? I wouldn't and I am a Giants fan.

I feel we will need to agree to disagree. I am glad you more or less see it that way as well. It's a matter of opinion, although I will take the highs of Steve Smith (CAR) over the consistency of Wayne.

Dam8610
08-06-2010, 02:01 AM
Wait, what?! hahaha

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/29367/original/shipment-of-fail.jpg


(not saying Wayne doesn't have great body control, but to say Smith doesn't is so stupid I don't know what to say.)

On a 1-10 rating scale if one has an 8 and one has a 10, then while both are good, one is clearly better than the other. Watch Wayne in the Patriots game last year (the sideline catch in the first quarter and the game winning TD), or the ridiculous game winning TD he had against the Texans in 2008, or the ridiculous catch he made against Philly in 2006...the list goes on and on, these are just the examples that come to mind immediately.

For emphasis:

Argument fail.

Not really, saying Smith has had better career averages per game and better YPC does nothing to take away from Wayne's consistency, nor does it enhance Smith's case on the durability issue.

yo123
08-06-2010, 02:04 AM
List of players who would produce identical numbers to Reggie Wayne if put in the same system:

Andre Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Randy Moss
Anquan Boldin
Chad Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Roddy White
Steve Smith (CAR)
Greg Jennings
Vincent Jackson
DeSean Jackson
Calvin Johnson
Hines Ward
Lee Evans
Santonio Holmes
Santana Moss
Marques Colston*

At least, with a few more players on the way up, but haven't shown enough yet. Fact is Wayne is a system guy. It is the same argument I made against Wes Welker a few months ago. He is a average #1 WR. (let me make this clear: not receiver overall, because he was once one of the best #2 in the game)

*Reggie Wayne is a lot like Marques Colston in a way.

*cough* Sidney Rice *cough*

Bengals78
08-06-2010, 02:24 AM
The lack of Chad love is laughable. I get you may not like his personality, but come on.
2001 - 12 games (3 started) 28 rec, 329 yds, 1 TD
2002 - 16 games (14 started) 69 rec, 1166 yds, 5 TD
2003 - " " 90 rec, 1355 yds, 10 TD
2004 - 16 games (16 started) 94 rec, 1274 yds, 9 TD
2005 - " " 97 rec, 1432 yds, 9 TD
2006 - " " 87 rec, 1389 yds, 7 TD
2007 - " " 93 rec, 1440 yds, 8 TD
2008 - 13 games (10 starts) 53 rec, 540 yds, 4 TD *
2009 - 16 games (15 starts) 72 rec, 1047 yds, 9 TD

Bold = over 15 ypc
Italics = over 13 ypc
* = Injury shortened year and Ryan Fitzpatrick

AntoinCD
08-06-2010, 07:24 AM
I think for a good three or four year stretch you could make a legitimate arguement that Steve Smith was the best WR in football. You could never say that about Wayne or Ocho. Therefore my vote has to go to Smith

LonghornsLegend
08-06-2010, 09:26 AM
Smith lacks the body control.



Wtf? It's hard to really even take anything else you say seriously now. If you want to say Wayne has body control great, but don't start making up things. This comment was worth every FAIL picture on the internetz.




I can respect an opinion that has Wayne behind Steve Smith though I disagree with it. I'd rather have the durability and consistency, as well as the lack of showmanship.



And you don't think the consistency has anything to do with having a HOFer throwing you the football. Just curious, how consistent do you think Wayne would be if he had a guy throwing him the football who was periodically throwing for 3500 yards, 19 TD's, and barely throwing the ball over 400 times? Or are we just going to look at stats and that's it?


The fact that SS has had two of the best individual seasons of anyone on here says everything you need to know. SS would have literally smashed the type of seasons we see from Wayne if he played for the Colts.

A Perfect Score
08-06-2010, 09:29 AM
On a 1-10 rating scale if one has an 8 and one has a 10, then while both are good, one is clearly better than the other. Watch Wayne in the Patriots game last year (the sideline catch in the first quarter and the game winning TD), or the ridiculous game winning TD he had against the Texans in 2008, or the ridiculous catch he made against Philly in 2006...the list goes on and on, these are just the examples that come to mind immediately.



Not really, saying Smith has had better career averages per game and better YPC does nothing to take away from Wayne's consistency, nor does it enhance Smith's case on the durability issue.

Actually, it does. Smith has missed some time on occasion, but suggesting that missing that time is inhibiting his ability to produce on a level similar to Wayne isn't true. And thats with Jake Delhomme as his QB, not the best QB in the game for the past 9 years.

If you want empirical evidence to illustrate how effective of a playmaker Steve Smith is, consider this: He has a higher YPC average (14.5) then Andre Johnson (13.5), Brandon Marshall (12.3), or Larry Fitzgerald (13.5). Again, his average YAC, which I think is a huge determining factor in a WR's effectiveness, is off the charts at 6.2, and it dwarfs Johnson (5.0), Marshall (5.0), Fiztgerald (3.5) and even Randy Moss (4.0). Steve Smith is one of the game's greatest playmakers, and while I do laud Wayne's route running and hands, when it all comes down to it he just isn't in the same class as Steve Smith when it comes to physical tools, attitude, and overall skillset.

Shiver
08-06-2010, 09:44 AM
Pretty sure all the WRs you listed are at least considered elite by some, with the possible exceptions of Vincent Jackson and Santonio Holmes, both of which I'd have to say I disagree with your assessment on (also disagree on Hines Ward, but I think he's very overrated). Regardless, how does "#1 option on an effective pass heavy offense" translate to "pathetically average"?


If there are 16 wide receivers (I listed more, but conservatively that is the number) better than you, then you are at best an average #1 WR. Therefore he is pathetically average in that he is getting credit and respect that outweigh his actual talents. When you throw around terms like "consistent" and "durable" that is exactly what Wayne is: a solid WR. But he is not great. No defense fears playing him. Steve Smith could dominate a game all on his own and the defense couldn't do anything about it. That is what separates the Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Steve Smith types from the accumulators like Tim Brown, Isaac Bruce and to a lesser extent Reggie Wayne.

As for Ward, Jackson and Holmes. They have been consistent performers. There is no doubt that they could match Wayne's productivity, put in his shoes.

As you said:
6 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 5 straight 80+ catch seasons?Any of the guys I mentioned could do that. Playing in a warm weather/dome, with Peyton Manning as the QB is something that has to factor in. Just like you need to contextualize the 1970s NBA, the dead ball and steroids era in baseball, the modern NFL passing attack explosion of the 00s has to be accounted for. The Colts were really the first and still the most prominent leaders of the parade.

Smooth Criminal
08-06-2010, 10:14 AM
Reggie Wayne and Smith are easily the best of the group, and Smith hasn't been great lately so I went with Wayne.

Rosebud
08-06-2010, 12:44 PM
I think for a good three or four year stretch you could make a legitimate arguement that Steve Smith was the best WR in football. You could never say that about Wayne or Ocho. Therefore my vote has to go to Smith

There was a time when you could make that argument for Chad as well, hell that argument did get made on this very site 4-5 years ago. I'm genuinely surprised at how Chad is being under-rated in this thread.

Saints-Tigers
08-06-2010, 01:19 PM
List of players who would produce identical numbers to Reggie Wayne if put in the same system:

Andre Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Randy Moss
Anquan Boldin
Chad Johnson
Brandon Marshall
Roddy White
Steve Smith (CAR)
Greg Jennings
Vincent Jackson
DeSean Jackson
Calvin Johnson
Hines Ward
Lee Evans
Santonio Holmes
Santana Moss
Marques Colston*

At least, with a few more players on the way up, but haven't shown enough yet. Fact is Wayne is a system guy. It is the same argument I made against Wes Welker a few months ago. He is a average #1 WR. (let me make this clear: not receiver overall, because he was once one of the best #2 in the game)

*Reggie Wayne is a lot like Marques Colston in a way.

The Bolded guys aren't close to Wayne or Colston.

A Perfect Score
08-06-2010, 01:22 PM
Lee Evans is a hell of a WR who has been in a horrible situation his entire career. The fact that he's able to produce at all in the frozen hell that has been the Bills offense is remarkable in its own right.

Go_Eagles77
08-06-2010, 01:26 PM
The Bolded guys aren't close to Wayne or Colston.
DeSean Jackson isn't close to Colston? I'm not going to say one is better than the other because they are such different types of receivers, but it's certainly close.

Saints-Tigers
08-06-2010, 01:37 PM
DeSean Jackson isn't close to Colston? I'm not going to say one is better than the other because they are such different types of receivers, but it's certainly close.

I just think Colston is one of those guys who gets undersold as a deep ball threat because of his speed.

The Saints offense certainly helps get into scoring position, but Colston is one of the best possession guys in the league, and has the downfield ability to complement it, and I think if we weren't so "spread" oriented, he could easily go over 100 catches and pile up a lot more yards, but we really don't force the ball to him like that.

His hands are as strong as anyone, and he shield guys away like a big TE, and he has just enough speed to be a deep threat(very good ypc total despite being seen as a possession guy too).

I can understand why people think he's totally a product of Brees though, Drew did make Lance Moore look like a star, haha.

My statement might have been hyperbole, but I think Desean is too reliant on the deep ball.

SuperMcGee
08-06-2010, 01:38 PM
I can see what he's saying about Evans. He's a pretty solid route runner, has very good hands and makes catches when draped in coverage. He just needs someone to get the ball in to him (ie Not Trent "there's a defender within five yards of you!" Edwards). Even reckless passers like Losman and Fitzpatrick were good for him because they at least took shots to get it to him, and he makes it pay off. Peyton Manning fitting balls in to Evans and hitting him out of his moves would produce very well. Very well.

I'll agree that he is not as good as either of those two players, but his usage on this team last year was an abomination. He wasn't free of blame, but not many guys would have done much better.

Saints-Tigers
08-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Those guys stuck out to me the most really, but there are a lot of guys on that list that I don't really think are better than Wayne either.

Go_Eagles77
08-06-2010, 01:48 PM
I just think Colston is one of those guys who gets undersold as a deep ball threat because of his speed.

The Saints offense certainly helps get into scoring position, but Colston is one of the best possession guys in the league, and has the downfield ability to complement it, and I think if we weren't so "spread" oriented, he could easily go over 100 catches and pile up a lot more yards, but we really don't force the ball to him like that.

His hands are as strong as anyone, and he shield guys away like a big TE, and he has just enough speed to be a deep threat(very good ypc total despite being seen as a possession guy too).

I can understand why people think he's totally a product of Brees though, Drew did make Lance Moore look like a star, haha.

My statement might have been hyperbole, but I think Desean is too reliant on the deep ball.

I see where you're coming from, but I always thought that bolded argument against DeSean was funny. That's like saying Chris Johnson is too reliant on his speed. That's what makes DeSean so great, obviously if he wasn't fast, he probably wouldn't even be in the NFL.

Shiver
08-06-2010, 05:30 PM
Those guys stuck out to me the most really, but there are a lot of guys on that list that I don't really think are better than Wayne either.


The question was, could they put up 6 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons and 80 catches per year. Obviously they could because most of them do it on their own (some not as regularly, but still) without the benefits of playing in a loaded, pass happy offense with Peyton Manning at the helm.

Saints-Tigers
08-06-2010, 05:32 PM
I see where you're coming from, but I always thought that bolded argument against DeSean was funny. That's like saying Chris Johnson is too reliant on his speed. That's what makes DeSean so great, obviously if he wasn't fast, he probably wouldn't even be in the NFL.


Difference is, you can give Chris Johnson the ball 350 times and he'll create an opportunity to use his speed.

Jackson needs to prove he can get the ball more often and put himself in position to use that speed.

A Perfect Score
08-06-2010, 05:51 PM
I think Desean Jackson is doing just fine with the touches he is getting now. 8 TDs of 50 or more yards last year was just ridiculous.