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View Full Version : HOF Ballot: You get one vote between these 2 guys


J-Mike88
08-06-2010, 12:13 PM
(stats are up-to-date, of course both expect to rack up more stats and they hope playoff & Super Bowl stuff)

Listening to Collinsworth and Florio this morning, talking about off-field issues being a factor for HOF voters, I thought this would be a great poll here and I don't see this debate anywhere else here....... your thoughts, and cast your one vote.

TERRELL OWENS
14 seasons
1,006 catches
14,951 yards
144 TD catches
3 TD runs
9 1,000-yard seasons
8 seasons with 10+ TDs
1 Super Bowl loss, played great in game

-Was selfish and caused problems for more than 1 team, but worked hard and had no run-ins with the law.
-Worked hard on field, never quit on the field, trained hard, but was too passionate on the field at times, b*tching at Garcia and McNabb and killing them in the media.
-Generally, I believe, a decent person off the field.

RANDY MOSS
12 seasons
926 catches
14,465 yards
148 TD catches
10 1,000 yard seasons
9 seasons with 10+ TDs
rookie record of 17 TD catches
all time record of 23 TD catches in 2007 season
had over 1,000 yard receiving his first season with Oakland (wow)
1 Super Bowl loss, played okay-well in game

-Was moody, quitting on both the Vikings and Raiders at times, even walking off the field before Viking @ Redskin game had ended
-Gave no effort in Oakland, although that team was a black hole
-Never involved in any serious off-field issues aside from the minor run-in with the police officer in Minnesota (straight cash homey)
-Generally, I believe, a decent person off the field.

Neither guy is gangster or criminal like a Vick, Jamal Lewis, Lawrence Phillips, etc. but both guys have serious issues that will be of concern to some voters, based on things I heard this morning on DTV channel 101, and listening to Peter King and Chris Mortenson over time.

You get one vote, who do you vote for?

As comparison, here are Marvin Harrison's stats and Michael Irvins, who is in.
Wow, seeing how good Marvin's stats are relative to Moss and Owens, I have to add him in !

IRVIN
12 seasons
750 catches
11,904 yards
65 TD catches
7 1,000-yard seasons
2 90+ catch seasons
3 Super Bowls, played great in games

HARRISON
13 seasons
1,102 catches
14,580 yards
128 TD catches
4 100+ catch seasons
2 90+catch seasons
8 1,000-yard seasons (consecutive)
8 10+ TD seasons (consecutive)
Won 1 Super Bowl, can't remember how he played in that game (some help)

-During career, was quiet as a mouse off the field and on the field. Caused no problems.... after career ended, may have murdered someone, still ongoing investigations.

PACKmanN
08-06-2010, 12:24 PM
Randy Moss, and everything i can think of can be said for both guys, so I'll just say Moss will have the better numbers at the end of their careers

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 12:27 PM
All three are Canton bound, but if you're going to compare alltime greats to other HOF WRs, I put Randy Moss a slight tick ahead of T.O., but I'd still prefer T.O. in his prime over Moss, because of his physical presence.

Mr. Goosemahn
08-06-2010, 12:29 PM
Got to be Moss.

Had Randy Moss had a consistent and good QB for his entire career like Marvin did, he'd have much better numbers than he does now. And if he hadn't gone to Oakland, he'd have even better numbers too.

In his entire career, he's posted single digit TD's only three times (per season). Two of those happened in Oakland. He's had 1000+ yard seasons in all but two, and one happened in Oakland.

That stop was a major bump in his career. Had he gone straight to NE from Minny, he'd have at least 10 more TD's and 50 more yards.

thenewfeature06
08-06-2010, 12:37 PM
Harrison was a damn good receiver but lets be honest Peyton was a big part of his success. But not I, I voted Moss.

FlyingElvis
08-06-2010, 12:38 PM
Had Moss spent his entire career with one of the best passers ever like Harrison was able to do, the numbers would likely be off the charts.

CC.SD
08-06-2010, 12:39 PM
I gave it to Harrison because the whole pedigree is there. Moss is better but with one vote only, can't give it to the guy who quit, even if it was on the Raiders. I'd rather give it to the gun wielding psycho who was always, always dependable.

falloutboy14
08-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Won 1 Super Bowl, can't remember how he played in that game (some help)

-During career, was quiet as a mouse off the field and on the field. Caused no problems.... after career ended, may have murdered someone, still ongoing investigations.

Both Harrison and Wayne had a rather pedestrian game. Both combined for 7 catches, 120 yards. That includes a 53 yard TD to Wayne when there was a miss-communication between the corner/safety leaving Wayne wide open. Clark had even less.

The Bears defense played the pass so heavily that the Colts neared 200 rushing yards (yes,you read that right), and Addai led the team in receptions(10) & passing yards(66). The dump-off pass was everywhere and the run game was getting 5 yards a carry. Dominic Rhodes would have gotten MVP in a more just world.

Also, I thought Marvin was cleared on everything. I could be wrong/had my homer glasses on though.

J-Mike88
08-06-2010, 12:46 PM
All three are Canton bound, but if you're going to compare alltime greats to other HOF WRs, I put Randy Moss a slight tick ahead of T.O., but I'd still prefer T.O. in his prime over Moss, because of his physical presence.
Well said. But damn, one-sided voting here!
Bad poll then by me.
I heard some cases made for TO this morning and Florio said that he's talked to more than one voter who will not put Moss on his first ballot because he quit on the Raiders totally..... you guys remember back to 2007, everyone said he was done, washed up.

However, part of me doesn't blame him because that was the only way he could escape Oakland at that time. You can't just turn in your resignation or quit like a normal job. Well, maybe if you're name is Brett Favre you can pull something like that....

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 01:01 PM
True about Oakland and Moss, he had to do something to get out of there, and unfortunately, that was by playing beneath his abilities.

yourfavestoner
08-06-2010, 01:35 PM
I gave it to Harrison because the whole pedigree is there. Moss is better but with one vote only, can't give it to the guy who quit, even if it was on the Raiders. I'd rather give it to the gun wielding psycho was always, always dependable.

Except, you know, in the playoffs where he managed to disappear every year.

In 16 postseason games (the equivalent of a full season) he had 65 catches, 883 yards, 2 touchdowns, and only one 100 yard game. That is ******* pitiful.

Tough call between Moss and Owens, though. They were both amazingly dominant, but limited in the route tree (TO pretty much only runs drags and slants, Moss runs streaks, fades, and corners). They were both impossible to contain or gameplan for.

I guess if I had to vote one, the Superbowl game with a broken leg puts TO over the top for me. Moss' record year with Brady (his only real QB in his career) makes this such a tough decision, though.

Also, TO will win CPOTY. Book it. His "decline" in Buffalo is no different than Moss' "decline" in Oakland. People will feel really stupid after this year. He averaged 15 ******* yards per catch with Cpt. Checkdown Edwards last year, who was getting nailed on three step drops.

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 01:43 PM
If the refs ever had the balls to call a pass-interference call on the Pats, Harrison's playoff numbers would be dramatically different.

PoopSandwich
08-06-2010, 01:43 PM
(stats are up-to-date, of course both expect to rack up more stats and they hope playoff & Super Bowl stuff)

Listening to Collinsworth and Florio this morning, talking about off-field issues being a factor for HOF voters, I thought this would be a great poll here and I don't see this debate anywhere else here....... your thoughts, and cast your one vote.

TERRELL OWENS
14 seasons
1,006 catches
14,951 yards
144 TD catches
3 TD runs
9 1,000-yard seasons
8 seasons with 10+ TDs
1 Super Bowl loss, played great in game


RANDY MOSS
12 seasons
926 catches
14,465 yards
148 TD catches
10 1,000 yard seasons
9 seasons with 10+ TDs

Wow, seeing how good Marvin's stats are relative to Moss and Owens, I have to add him in !

HARRISON
13 seasons
1,102 catches
14,580 yards
128 TD catches
4 100+ catch seasons
2 90+catch seasons
8 1,000-yard seasons (consecutive)
8 10+ TD seasons (consecutive)



T.O. and Moss both have more yards per catch, overall yards (Moss for sure after this year... Harrison played 13 years this will be Moss's 13th year and will in all likelihood go for 1,000 yards.

Moss will statistically destroy Harrison even more in equal seasons after this year, so I really don't get how "seeing how good Marvin's stats are relative to Moss and Owens, I have to add him in ! can apply to the stats.

Saints-Tigers
08-06-2010, 01:47 PM
Moss's numbers are better with less seasons and catches, and he's had to play the most seasons at his peak with poor QB play(he's had it pretty good overall, but not in comparison to these guys).

The way Moss warps a defense and a gameplan is just beyond these other guys though. He's one of those few weapons where even with double and triple teams, you are still pretty likely to get toasted deep at least once.

Paul
08-06-2010, 01:56 PM
Moss easily for me. Aside from his time in OAK, he has been of the most feared WR in the League.

Plus his name has become a verb. Moss'D!

J-Mike88
08-06-2010, 02:00 PM
If the refs ever had the balls to call a pass-interference call on the Pats, Harrison's playoff numbers would be dramatically different.
LOL, deep memories!

Brent
08-06-2010, 04:31 PM
one could argue that Moss actually made Dante Culpepper look good.

Brent
08-06-2010, 04:40 PM
meh. i think early culpepper gets seriously underrated, just because later culpepper sucked.
Maybe it's because the ratio of good years to bad years is seriously skewed towards bad. First four years in the league? Not bad. After that? Rather awful.

yo123
08-06-2010, 04:40 PM
one could argue that Moss actually made Dante Culpepper look good.


Culpepper put up one of the best seasons from a QB in recent memory when Moss was banged up all year and only had 49 catches.

Saints-Tigers
08-06-2010, 04:40 PM
meh. i think early culpepper gets seriously underrated, just because later culpepper sucked.


Likewise, but in comparison to Peyton Manning? Culpepper had some really good years, but some lower ones, and playing in Oakland was far far far worse than anything the other two had to go to, even compared to Buffalo last year for TO.

In Hindsight I guess Cunningham, Culpepper, MVP Brady, Cassell, Really good BRady is better than what TO had in the end of Young, Garcia, McNabb, Romo, and then Buffaroflo.

descendency
08-06-2010, 04:59 PM
Had Moss spent his entire career with one of the best passers ever like Harrison was able to do, the numbers would likely be off the charts.

If Moss spent his career with Peyton Manning, we'd all be wondering "Jerry who?"


meh. i think early culpepper gets seriously underrated, just because later culpepper sucked.

Throwing to Moss and Carter, average fans could put up huge numbers.

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 05:05 PM
T.O. and Moss both have more yards per catch, overall yards (Moss for sure after this year... Harrison played 13 years this will be Moss's 13th year and will in all likelihood go for 1,000 yards.

Moss will statistically destroy Harrison even more in equal seasons after this year, so I really don't get how "seeing how good Marvin's stats are relative to Moss and Owens, I have to add him in ! can apply to the stats.

It's a freeze frame comparison, not looking into the future to see the numbers Randy Moss will likely put up before he retires.

I doubt Moss' career numbers will 'destroy' Marvin Harrison's. Only one WR really dwarfs the production of Harrison, or any one else; Jerry Rice.

BigDawg819
08-06-2010, 05:11 PM
(stats are up-to-date, of course both expect to rack up more stats and they hope playoff & Super Bowl stuff)

Listening to Collinsworth and Florio this morning, talking about off-field issues being a factor for HOF voters, I thought this would be a great poll here and I don't see this debate anywhere else here....... your thoughts, and cast your one vote.

TERRELL OWENS
14 seasons
1,006 catches
14,951 yards
144 TD catches
3 TD runs
9 1,000-yard seasons
8 seasons with 10+ TDs
1 Super Bowl loss, played great in game

-Was selfish and caused problems for more than 1 team, but worked hard and had no run-ins with the law.
-Worked hard on field, never quit on the field, trained hard, but was too passionate on the field at times, b*tching at Garcia and McNabb and killing them in the media.
-Generally, I believe, a decent person off the field.

RANDY MOSS
12 seasons
926 catches
14,465 yards
148 TD catches
10 1,000 yard seasons
9 seasons with 10+ TDs
rookie record of 17 TD catches
all time record of 23 TD catches in 2007 season
had over 1,000 yard receiving his first season with Oakland (wow)
1 Super Bowl loss, played okay-well in game

-Was moody, quitting on both the Vikings and Raiders at times, even walking off the field before Viking @ Redskin game had ended
-Gave no effort in Oakland, although that team was a black hole
-Never involved in any serious off-field issues aside from the minor run-in with the police officer in Minnesota (straight cash homey)
-Generally, I believe, a decent person off the field.

Neither guy is gangster or criminal like a Vick, Jamal Lewis, Lawrence Phillips, etc. but both guys have serious issues that will be of concern to some voters, based on things I heard this morning on DTV channel 101, and listening to Peter King and Chris Mortenson over time.

You get one vote, who do you vote for?

As comparison, here are Marvin Harrison's stats and Michael Irvins, who is in.
Wow, seeing how good Marvin's stats are relative to Moss and Owens, I have to add him in !

IRVIN
12 seasons
750 catches
11,904 yards
65 TD catches
7 1,000-yard seasons
2 90+ catch seasons
3 Super Bowls, played great in games

HARRISON
13 seasons
1,102 catches
14,580 yards
128 TD catches
4 100+ catch seasons
2 90+catch seasons
8 1,000-yard seasons (consecutive)
8 10+ TD seasons (consecutive)
Won 1 Super Bowl, can't remember how he played in that game (some help)

-During career, was quiet as a mouse off the field and on the field. Caused no problems.... after career ended, may have murdered someone, still ongoing investigations.

Since when? Irvin is in the HOF, LT is, I could go on but the HOF is about on the field production plain and simple.

J-Mike88
08-06-2010, 05:19 PM
Since when? Irvin is in the HOF, LT is, I could go on but the HOF is about on the field production plain and simple.
Each voter is human, and each has a different opinion about off-field issues, beit PEDs, other drugs, arrests, attitude, treatment of media, whatever.

Some voters think McGwire deserves to be in still, some don't.

Voters are people and no two people think exactly the same about those types of issues, even though they are supposed to only judge the on-field work, you know some factor in the player as a person.

J-Mike88
08-06-2010, 05:38 PM
TERRELL OWENS
14 seasons
1,006 catches
14,951 yards
144 TD catches
3 TD runs
9 1,000-yard seasons
8 seasons with 10+ TDs
1 Super Bowl loss, played great in game

RANDY MOSS
12 seasons
926 catches
14,465 yards
148 TD catches
10 1,000 yard seasons
9 seasons with 10+ TDs
rookie record of 17 TD catches
all time record of 23 TD catches in 2007 season
had over 1,000 yard receiving his first season with Oakland (wow)
1 Super Bowl loss, played okay-well in game

IRVIN
12 seasons
750 catches
11,904 yards
65 TD catches
7 1,000-yard seasons
2 90+ catch seasons
3 Super Bowls, played great in games

HARRISON
13 seasons
1,102 catches
14,580 yards
128 TD catches
4 100+ catch seasons
2 90+catch seasons
8 1,000-yard seasons (consecutive)
8 10+ TD seasons (consecutive)
Lynn Swann is in. He made a few circus-highlight reel catches in big game Super Bowls as part of the dynasty Steelers title teams.
Here's Swann's career stats, per Florio's column today (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2010-08-06/five-who-should-be-hall-fame-and-five-who-should-be-out).

Swann finished with only 336 catches and 5,462 yards. He scored a scant 51 touchdowns, an average of fewer than six per season.

His total catches don't even rank in the top 250 all time, per Pro-Football-Reference.com.

boknows34
08-06-2010, 05:40 PM
Since when? Irvin is in the HOF, LT is, I could go on but the HOF is about on the field production plain and simple.

Yep, Peter King, one of the 44 voters for the HOF, has mentioned numerous times in his MMQB mailbag that the Pro Football HOF tells the voters not to consider any off-field issues when making their selections.

Randy Moss was also my choice here. He was simply unstoppable in his prime.

Brent
08-06-2010, 05:46 PM
I have Owens as a close second to Moss. Maybe it's the memories of his time in SF before he was run out of town, but his 3 year run from the 2000-2002 season was unreal. He was unstoppable.

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 07:43 PM
Lynn Swann is in. He made a few circus-highlight reel catches in big game Super Bowls as part of the dynasty Steelers title teams.
Here's Swann's career stats, per Florio's column today (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2010-08-06/five-who-should-be-hall-fame-and-five-who-should-be-out).

Swann finished with only 336 catches and 5,462 yards. He scored a scant 51 touchdowns, an average of fewer than six per season.

His total catches don't even rank in the top 250 all time, per Pro-Football-Reference.com.

Swann played in a totally different era, mostly during 14 game seasons. It's his performance in the playoffs/SBs that established his mark on the game.

In 3 SB wins, Swann had 16 catches, 354 yards and 3 TDs.

Don't forget it took Swann 13 years as a finalist to be voted into Canton.

descendency
08-06-2010, 07:47 PM
Swann played in a totally different era, mostly during 14 game seasons. It's his performance in the playoffs/SBs that established his mark on the game.

Completely agreed. Comparing eras is stupid.

Broadway Joe Namath, if compared to a QB today, would be JaMarcus Russell who is obviously not Canton bound.

The WCO and rule changes made football a higher scoring game. It's just that simple.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-06-2010, 08:03 PM
To be fair, both Moss and Owens are going to be elected to the Hall, very likely in their first appearance on the ballot.

If I had to pick one, it's Moss and I don't think twice about it. He's the most dominant in NFL history since Hutson. They're both going in though.

Harrison is a whole other matter.

edit -

Oh, and hey: stop bringing up guys like Namath and Swann as statistical examples of anything. Even compared to their own eras, they aren't HOF'ers based on how they produced in their NFL careers. They're not even close. That said, they're hugely important to their respective eras of football and the story of the NFL can't be told without them. They deserve to be in the Hall, but not because of a career-long statistical production. Anyone who uses them as a stastistical watermark is missing the point entirely.

Shiver
08-06-2010, 09:11 PM
I voted Terrell Owens because I believe he should be a no-brainer, lead pipe lock Hall of Famer. Randy Moss probably would be my first pick, but I knew he'd be everyone's first pick here. Terrell Owens was just as good when they were in their prime together.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-06-2010, 09:23 PM
How are you arriving at the 2-3 per generation mark? I wasn't aware that was even an historical trend.

I'm not sure there will be a third. Guys like Harrison, Bruce, Holt, and Smith kinda can't have a case made for them without making a case for everyone else in that same statistical area.

We'll probably see Chris Carter and Tim Brown make it in the next couple years and then Moss and Owens would appear to be the next guys in line. No one else appears to be worth it.

Complex
08-06-2010, 09:26 PM
how is it even close between Marvin Harrison and T.O.? Marvin never showed up in the playoffs, him and Peyton are so overrated

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 09:46 PM
Don't be shocked if some voters refuse to vote in Randy Moss and T.O. on the first ballot; it's not right but I believe there are voters that will hold their personalities against them.

About the next crop of WRs IMO who are Canton bound, Chris Carter has gotta be in there next, Andre Reed at some point and I just know there are voters who are gonna give Tim Brown a ton of love.

Of the group of WRs including Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Steve Smith and Chad Ochocinco...Harrison and Bruce are near locks, ( maybe not first ballot, but I can't imagine they will be in their late 50s without a bust in Canton), Torry Holt will have to wait a LOONNGG time, if ever, and Smith and Chad haven't put together HOF careers yet.

Steve Smith is a great WR, but he doesn't match up career-wise with the modern HOF candidates.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-06-2010, 09:48 PM
You'll have to explain to me how Bruce is a near-lock and Holt isn't.

Splat
08-06-2010, 09:50 PM
I would not be shocked at all if both Randy Moss and T.O. miss out on being first ballot be it right or wrong.

That said both will get in.

Bengals78
08-06-2010, 10:02 PM
I have heard Chad is looking for properties in the Canton area....

FUNBUNCHER
08-06-2010, 10:39 PM
You'll have to explain to me how Bruce is a near-lock and Holt isn't.

Just that I think Bruce will be given greater consideration for putting up better career numbers and playing 16 years in the NFL.

Holt's two 1600+ seasons are nearly unmatched, however.

prock
08-07-2010, 01:19 AM
If Cris Carter can't get in on a second ballot, it will be hard for anyone to.

And about Culpepper, he was a good quarterback for a few years. His only issue was that he was a ******* moron. Once his knee went, so did his talent.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-07-2010, 01:25 AM
Just that I think Bruce will be given greater consideration for putting up better career numbers and playing 16 years in the NFL.

Holt's two 1600+ seasons are nearly unmatched, however.

Right. Better career numbers in 5 more seasons than Holt (to date, anyway). It's kinda hard to be impressed by marginally better career numbers when Bruce played 50 more games than Holt has.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-07-2010, 02:24 AM
Harrison stands about as good a chance as anyone behind Moss and Owens to "Art Monk" his way into the Hall. Personally, I'd just as soon just let Moss and Owens in. They're the only ones who clearly deserve it.

J-Mike88
08-07-2010, 07:58 AM
You guys see a chance for Andre Johnson or Fitzgerald?
To me, it seems that it pretty much takes Super Bowls to get guys in like them..... see Lynn Swann.

Didn't Drew Pearson ever make it?
Did Andre Reid ever get in?

FUNBUNCHER
08-07-2010, 08:41 AM
IMO, there is no deeper skill position of potentially worthy HOF candidates that the WR position.

The dilemma the HOF is facing in determining which WRs will/will not get in would be like having a dozen RBs with 13700 career rushing yards and 100 TDs, Canton worthy numbers alone, so how do you decide ultimately who goes in??

If Jim Kelly and Thurman THomas are in the Hall, I don't know how you can keep Andre Reed out forever.

As for Larry Fitz and Andre Johnson, there both about halfway there IMO.
It helps a WR immensely to be regarded as the best, or one of the best, at your position during your prime, instead of people having to look back over your career and determining that you were 'great' after the fact.

yourfavestoner
08-07-2010, 09:08 AM
If the refs ever had the balls to call a pass-interference call on the Pats, Harrison's playoff numbers would be dramatically different.

You mean the same Pats secondary that TO ran roughshod over two weeks later in the Superbowl (with a broken ankle)?

nepg
08-07-2010, 09:11 AM
The football HoF is just as much about personalities and performances as it is about pure numbers. It's not like Cooperstown, which is pure numbers.

Owens and Moss were clearly the best in their generation. Moss's pure talent is clearly better than Owens. I doubt many people will even think about how he dogged it in Oakland when it's all said and done. He's going to have a monster season this year, and has 3-5 years left. He'll get the TD record, and get close to Rice's other numbers.

It's tough to tell where Owens is headed for the rest of his career. I guess we'll know after this year.

FUNBUNCHER
08-07-2010, 09:23 AM
49 TDs is a ton of scores for Moss to make after the age of 32.
It'll be interesting to see how close he comes and if he can maintain his health and speed.

BTW, Rice has 208 total TDs for his career, a number I can't see anyone in the near future ever approaching, least of all Moss.

nepg
08-07-2010, 09:37 AM
If he sticks with the Pats and Brady, I don't see why he wouldn't get 15 per seasonf or the next 3 years then start grinding out the last bit of the record.

yourfavestoner
08-07-2010, 11:54 AM
If he sticks with the Pats and Brady, I don't see why he wouldn't get 15 per seasonf or the next 3 years then start grinding out the last bit of the record.

Moss has pretty much admitted that he knows this is his last year in NE. They won't be able to afford him, Brady, and Mankins.

Nalej
08-07-2010, 12:31 PM
Moss has pretty much admitted that he knows this is his last year in NE. They won't be able to afford him, Brady, and Mankins.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Pats owner, soon after Moss said that, quickly said he'd be willing to pay his top players.
Wilfork was resigned, Brady'll be resigned and they've offered Mankins a 5yr/35mill contract that he turned down.
They've already extend Moss once already too.
Plus, I bet Brady'll speak up about keeping Moss. It's his big play downfield guy while Welker is his security blanket

Paranoidmoonduck
08-07-2010, 01:21 PM
You guys see a chance for Andre Johnson or Fitzgerald?

It's just too early to say. Fitz is 26 and Johnson is 29. Both would have to be hugely productive well into their mid-30's for the discussion to start.

It's not outside the realm of possibility, but it's impossible to discuss right now. I would say that I think Fitzgerald has the higher chance.

Jvig43
08-07-2010, 01:28 PM
Despite what Moss has said, I think well at least offer him a pretty nice deal. Whether thatll be enough or more than other teams offer idk but I think well try to keep him.

Mr.Regular
08-07-2010, 01:31 PM
Randy Moss. Easily.
After Rice and Hutson, Moss could be next in line.
He changed how defenses played. You always have to account for Randy Moss. His size/speeed/athleticism had coordinators game planning against him. So much attention is given to stopping Randy. And he still produces like a mad man.

Vikes99ej
08-07-2010, 07:20 PM
Randy Moss. Lawrence Taylor made it, and he's a pedophile crackhead.

Paul
08-07-2010, 08:49 PM
It's just too early to say. Fitz is 26 and Johnson is 29. Both would have to be hugely productive well into their mid-30's for the discussion to start.

It's not outside the realm of possibility, but it's impossible to discuss right now. I would say that I think Fitzgerald has the higher chance.

What the hell Fitz is only 26? It seems like he's been in the league forever.

Bengals78
08-07-2010, 08:54 PM
Randy Moss. Lawrence Taylor made it, and he's a pedophile crackhead.

The pedo came out AFTER. And wasn't it coke? But who didnt use coke in the 80's?

abaddon41_80
08-08-2010, 11:33 AM
The voting in this thread went pretty much as expected, though I am a little surprised that Harrison has the same amount of votes as Owens. I have always thought Harrison was somewhat a product of Peyton but Owens would be good with pretty much any halfway decent QB. Moss, when he plays as hard as he can, is the obvious choice. I cannot even imagine the types of numbers Moss would have if he hadn't basically taken 2004-2006 off

FUNBUNCHER
08-08-2010, 11:54 AM
The pedo came out AFTER. And wasn't it coke? But who didnt use coke in the 80's?

Coke at UNC, just at parties and not full out junkie, started freebasing after 3-4 years in NYC.

Still the best LB in NFL history, imo.

Bengals78
08-08-2010, 12:09 PM
Coke at UNC, just at parties and not full out junkie, started freebasing after 3-4 years in NYC.

Still the best LB in NFL history, imo.

Its funny, but you can be a crack head, coke fiend or pedophile all you want and you will still be forgiven in the eyes of the media. But don't you dare do steroids or say anything racist in a drunken stupor. Those are unforgivable sins to the media. (Aka HoF voters)

prock
08-08-2010, 12:11 PM
The pedo came out AFTER. And wasn't it coke? But who didnt use coke in the 80's?

Who didn't use steroids in the 90's?

Bengals78
08-08-2010, 12:25 PM
Who didn't use steroids in the 90's?

Well as long as you didn't get caught ;)

ViperVisor
08-08-2010, 12:39 PM
As a 49er guy I have to say Owens.

http://i44.tinypic.com/f0p36a.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/209im4k.jpg

And 49ers fans may remember him running like 70 yards across and down field to get a guy after a Interception in STL

FUNBUNCHER
08-08-2010, 01:44 PM
I think the NFL has turned a blind eye towards PEDs forever. Any athlete who gets busted by the NFL for using a banned substance, ( see Brian Cushing), is really kind of an idiot.

Agents give these guys a heads up when testing is scheduled IMO, and the players that use cycle their doses accordingly.

Guys in the NFL don't stack with the same amount of PEDs that a pro bodybuilder would use, besides the NFL places too much of a premium on size/strength/power to think athletes aren't using artificial means to gain an edge.

If a player is on PEDs to recover from injuries, I have no problem with it. Players with injuries like Dumervil are expected to recover in 3 to 4 months, instead of the six to eight months it would take for a normal person.

What's great about the game of football is that pure strength or straight line speed, all attributes that can be dramatically improved by PEDs, by themselves don't make someone a 'great football player'. Intelligence, instincts, agility and the ability to torque one's body to turn and run, intensity of play and mental toughness - PEDs can't do much to improve those.

People talk about the Steelers and imply they were juicing heavily in the 70s, but think about it, who was, really?? Maybe a few interior lineman on O, but Bradshaw wasn't a juicer. Joe Greene was 6'4, 275#, about the same size he was coming out of college. Jack Lambert, 6'4, 220# MLB on a good day?? Franco Harris?? Lynn Swann?
If steroids couldn't turn a guy like Tony Mandarich into a pro bowler, I'm content on some level with the current level of PED use in the NFL. They don't all use, the guys who do aren't distorting the game, (until I see a LB making 250 solo tackles or a pass-rusher tallying 30 sacks a season, I'm okay), and at the end of the day, great T-E-A-M-S beat great players.

MiWolves
08-08-2010, 03:59 PM
what does owens have to do with a garrison hearst touchdown?

his blocking?

Sniper
08-08-2010, 03:59 PM
Moss by a hair over Owens. Both better make it, though.

Brent
08-08-2010, 04:24 PM
he makes one block at the end of the run...
I think he was pointing out how Owens was 1) on the left side of a play going right, and 2) at one point was almost ten yards behind Hearst but, hauls ass to pass him and make a block so he could score.

At least I believe that was his point(?)

J-Mike88
08-08-2010, 05:55 PM
he makes one block at the end of the run...
yeah, great block on #98 sealed the deal. good hustle.

Mr.Regular
08-08-2010, 06:24 PM
Yeah he shows insane hustle on that play. Goes from the opposite side of the field, and 10 yards back, to come up and make the final block to punch him in.
I think hes trying to show that though TO is perceived (and rightfully so) as a me first attention seeker, when he's on the field he gives it his all for his team.

J-Mike88
08-08-2010, 07:03 PM
Yahoo Sports front page is talking about TO as a HOF candidate now...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-owenshall080810

A place he may never arrive if you buy the opinions of some people in the game.

“Absolutely not,” a long-time NFL team personnel executive said recently when asked if Owens deserved a spot in the Hall of Fame. Another prominent team executive echoed that, calling Owens a “figment.”

“I think he is so overblown statistics-wise, it’s unbelievable,” the first executive said. “If you play long enough, you’re going to have stats. He’s playing long enough and he’s got stats and now he has another gig, so there are more stats coming. But he’s no more a Hall of Famer than this bottle of water.

“I’m talking about the route runner. I’m talking about the hands. All that stuff, the wide receiver skills. I just don’t see it. Big, strong, all that? Yeah. That’s there. But Hall of Famer? Years ago I would have said he was heading in a Hall of Fame direction. But a winner? He doesn’t have any of that. We don’t even have to bring that [into the discussion]. ”

Whether the 44 media members who vote on the Hall of Fame agree with that one day remains to be seen

nepg
08-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Those people being quoted are full of it. Take note that they're team executives. Most team executives are pretty jaded in regard to Owens. Route running? Hands? Receiver skills? Owens doesn't have it? WTF is that guy doing with a job with an NFL team?

My level of dislike for Owens is just as high as the next guy's, but the guy is seriously talented AND skilled.

J-Mike88
08-08-2010, 07:34 PM
Everyone knows that TO drops a lot of passes.
But what's amazing to think about is look how many he caught, and add in the many drops, and what does that tell us?
It tells us that the guy flatout knows how to get open. He gets open a lot.

FUNBUNCHER
08-08-2010, 08:04 PM
Unreal.

Everyone hates Owens' personality, but he's not a drug-addict, doesn't beat women, he's just a douche to his QBs.

But you can't deny the man's career or production. To suggest he's a stat-compiler because of how long he's been in the league is nutty.

I think some of these NFL execs really aren't up to date on the numbers T.O. has put up over his career. Other than Randy Moss, he's simply been the most dominant WR of his generation. 5x 1st team All-Pro. 6x pro-bowler.
He's the reason the 49ers got rid of Jerry Rice.

He should be a 1s ballot HOFer. Getting into the HOF at all??
T.O. is a lock.

Nalej
08-08-2010, 10:08 PM
Agreed. TO is a monster. Can't hate a guy who speaks his mind. I respect that.
Remember, his teammates all love him... its just the QBs that can't stand him
but **** that... do your job... Giving TO the ball always results in good thing (minus the recent years of the dropsies)

nobodyinparticular
08-09-2010, 12:00 AM
LOL, deep memories!

Why does this sound like the title of a porno?

TACKLE
08-09-2010, 02:23 AM
It helps a WR immensely to be regarded as the best, or one of the best, at your position during your prime, instead of people having to look back over your career and determining that you were 'great' after the fact.

Except if your name is Art Monk.

RaiderNation
08-09-2010, 02:33 AM
None of the other 3 have been "best in the game" like Randy Moss was as a Viking. Moss was on track to be very close to Jerry Rice's records at one point too which shows you how good he was at one point. He seems to be falling off now though so his stats might drop...

TACKLE
08-09-2010, 02:35 AM
None of the other 3 have been "best in the game" like Randy Moss was as a Viking. Moss was on track to be very close to Jerry Rice's records at one point too which shows you how good he was at one point. He seems to be falling off now though so his stats might drop...

You know you're good when your considered to be falling off and you still lead the NFL in TD receptions.

AntoinCD
08-09-2010, 04:24 AM
Quite simply there can be no other answer than Moss here. Even with his two seasons in Oakland he is still one of the top stat guys of all time. However the real thing that needs to be evaluated is no player in recent times, maybe ever, affected an opposing team's gameplan like Randy Moss. Any arguements about character issues etc are irrelevant IMO. As a WR Randy Moss, at worst, is top 5 all time. He should be a cast iron certainty for First Ballot HoF

J-Mike88
08-09-2010, 07:53 AM
Quite interesting that Harrison has more votes than TO does.
Lotta TO-haters out there.

yourfavestoner
08-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Quite interesting that Harrison has more votes than TO does.
Lotta TO-haters out there.

That's really the only reason I voted for TO instead of Moss. The fact that Harrison is even close to him astounds me.

Complex
08-09-2010, 02:39 PM
That's really the only reason I voted for TO instead of Moss. The fact that Harrison is even close to him astounds me.

Yeah me too, Marvin is a great regular season WR and a horrible playoff WR.


I think that Randy Moss is a better WR than Jerry Rice.

yourfavestoner
08-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Yeah me too, Marvin is a great regular season WR and a horrible playoff WR.


I think that Randy Moss is a better WR than Jerry Rice.

He can do more to stretch the field and influence coverage, is a better physical talent, and better at jump balls. Whether that makes him "better" depends on how you define the word.

While Moss is superior in certain facets of playing receiver, there are areas where Rice just flat out destroys him. In particular, route running and run after the catch ability.

FUNBUNCHER
08-09-2010, 06:25 PM
Yeah me too, Marvin is a great regular season WR and a horrible playoff WR.


I think that Randy Moss is a better WR than Jerry Rice.

If you never saw a player play in his prime, or win SBs, out of basic respect, I think it's ridiculous to form an opinion about which current WR is possibly better than Rice.

Jerry Rice's level of execution and preparation, toughness, and 'clutch' play is on a different planet compared to Randy Moss.
If a 25 year old Jerry Rice had been on that undefeated Patriots team, there is NO WAY he would not have shown up big in the title game and carried Brady and the offense on his back.

If Rice had been born 6'4 with sub 4.3 speed, he would have put up multiple 2000 yard, 20+ TD seasons.

Moss is a great talent, a future HOFer, but he's not a leader, and he has yet to prove that he's a winner when his team needs him to step up in critical moments and elevate his play.

Brent
08-09-2010, 06:29 PM
not to mention, looking Rice's stats, he did that before that lame rule where you cant get touched by a DB.

yourfavestoner
08-10-2010, 12:33 AM
not to mention, looking Rice's stats, he did that before that lame rule where you cant get touched by a DB.

That, and the TD record that Moss broke was set in a year where he played a 12 game season that ended due to a player strike.

Texas Homer
08-10-2010, 04:02 AM
Moss (imo).