PDA

View Full Version : so much for tebow fixing his throwing motion


superman
08-15-2010, 10:52 PM
1st pass attempt (minus the little dump off to the te)

http://i37.tinypic.com/vpb992.jpg

Hurricanes25
08-15-2010, 10:54 PM
It's a work in progress but every once in a while he is going to revert back to his natural throwing motion which is what you see above.

I did not see the game so how did he look? Specifically his throwing motion.

superman
08-15-2010, 10:55 PM
i'm just now watching it. i just thought it was funny how the very first deep attempt he went back to it (granted it was a great throw).

maybe somebody reminds him on the sideline.

sbh15
08-15-2010, 10:59 PM
did you see the throw on this pass? pretty perfect

Scotty D
08-15-2010, 10:59 PM
-He had a nice 35-45 yrd pass but the receiver dropped it.
-Release was slow and awkward
-He took a big hit in the pocket while releasing a pass that was returned for a TD but later overturned (tuck rule)
-It wasn't pretty but he ended up with no turnovers, a TD, and decent stats.

superman
08-15-2010, 11:04 PM
did you see the throw on this pass? pretty perfect

it was a nice pass. that's not the issue.

the issue is when you replace #45 here with a decent player during the regular season...

http://i37.tinypic.com/280p1zd.jpg

Mr. Goosemahn
08-15-2010, 11:08 PM
*Insert LaMarr Woodley, sack, fumble, and TD.*

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-15-2010, 11:12 PM
it was a nice pass. that's not the issue.

the issue is when you replace #45 here with a decent player during the regular season...

http://i37.tinypic.com/280p1zd.jpg

And that's why he isn't gonna be starting QB for at least this season(one would hope)

bam bam
08-15-2010, 11:26 PM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs450.ash1/24802_526373441655_41400477_31339642_157873_n.jpg

Timbathia
08-15-2010, 11:30 PM
And that's why he isn't gonna be starting QB for at least this season(one would hope)

The Tebow haters saw more than enough in his first outing to keep on hating, and those with a Tebow man-crush saw more than enough in his first outing to make them think he will be a NFL-god.

Those of us that are remotely sensible will reserve our judgment for at least 12 months.

LonghornsLegend
08-15-2010, 11:43 PM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs450.ash1/24802_526373441655_41400477_31339642_157873_n.jpg

This is never gonna stop making me laugh.




But I saw the whole game and ironically I said the same thing "so much for his new throwing motion". I get it's a work in progress but he was doing the same thing as soon as he got into the game. His release was a big slow windup, and I saw more then a few times the ball was well below his waist in the windup.


Kid works hard enough to continue to work on it, but he won't last unless that changes. He also won't last if he still thinks he can just bowl through defenders like College Football either. That last TD he ran in when the game was out I thought he broke a few of his ribs, guarantee he won't be able to take many of those hits.

Texas Homer
08-16-2010, 01:14 AM
I think Tebow can be a solid/winning QB in the NFL.

FUNBUNCHER
08-16-2010, 01:15 AM
Tebow, within reason, can take a hit on a scramble. He's learned how to run the ball like a fullback and to protect himself.

I like his deep ball, great timing on long throws.

Brady Quinn still has issues.

sbh15
08-16-2010, 01:16 AM
by the way, im not saying that this is necessarily okay, but imo he's definitely progressed. made some nice throws and looked pretty good in the pocket. throwing motions can be fixed, so long as he's only used for wildcat type stuff during the year and has time to fix it, he'll figure it out.

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2010, 01:50 AM
Meh, still didn't look like he understood how to read defenses and go through progressions and his throwing motion hasn't changed at all.

fenikz
08-16-2010, 02:00 AM
http://images.nymag.com/news/intelligencer/breaking/breaking091005_560.jpg

That's who the 2nd QB selected should have been

SickwithIt1010
08-16-2010, 02:53 AM
1st pass attempt (minus the little dump off to the te)

http://i37.tinypic.com/vpb992.jpg

As a pitcher I understand how this can happen. I have been working on trying to change my arm angle a little bit and as much as you work on it in practice and in workouts and such, when you get to the game you are likely to go back to what has made you successful and what has gotten you to where you are. It takes alot and alot of reps to get an arm angle or throwing motion to be consistent.

irishbucsfan
08-16-2010, 05:28 AM
From my tennis days I know that it takes about 10,000 reps of a certain technique before it becomes automatic.

He was playing against scrubs so he didn't look bad, but that hit he took at the end was massive.

LonghornsLegend
08-16-2010, 08:21 AM
Even look at his feet as he was throwing, that was even off. His mechanics are still a mess, which isn't that big of a concern because he's still very accurate, but I still think he needs to clean all that stuff up.


As nice as his deep ball may be, and even with the accuracy, if he continually leaves the ball below his waist in his windup he'll fumble 4-5 times a game, especially with how slow it is.

LizardState
08-16-2010, 08:44 AM
The Tebow haters saw more than enough in his first outing to keep on hating, and those with a Tebow man-crush saw more than enough in his first outing to make them think he will be a NFL-god.

Those of us that are remotely sensible will reserve our judgment for at least 12 months.

Good assessment. Coupla good throws, one excellent throw dropped, & coupla bad throws. 1st game was a push.

It's a long road to a starting NFL QB job but that Zen saying goes Even a journey of thousand miles begins with the 1st step.

Splat
08-16-2010, 09:35 AM
For his first NFL game EVER I thought he looked all right, it's way to early to say how this is going to play out.

Jakey
08-16-2010, 09:49 AM
People kindof overreact on certain mechanics of the game, not every single player is going to have the same tehniques...Rich Gannon was a pretty successfull QB in the league and he a had a rediculous throwing motion.

Splat
08-16-2010, 09:51 AM
People overreact on anything with Tebow be it good or bad it doesn't matter.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-16-2010, 09:57 AM
If he can get it out a little faster, I don't care what it looks like. Rivers still has an ugly throwing motion but I bet Chargers fans don't give a ****. I don't care if Tebow backhands it out of there, if he can get it done quickly and put the ball on target, I'm happy.

keylime_5
08-16-2010, 10:14 AM
He definitely needs to speed up his release like tenfold. He kept reverting back to it last night. Not sure it will ever happen. Not every good QB has had a super quick release, but there's way more guys who busted b/c of a slow release than not. At least he is mobile and can buy time with his legs.

georgiafan
08-16-2010, 10:21 AM
You still dont want your franchise QB trying to plow over 2 starting LB's 5 times a game. He will not last long doing that even if he doesnt get hurt bad he will have lots of minor injuries that will pile up. Because u could see his first instict was to run still.

P-L
08-16-2010, 10:28 AM
I thought Tebow looked pretty good. He still has away to go mechanically, but he'll have plenty of time. The Broncos don't need him right now. His first game was encouraging considering how big of a project most considered him to be.

Splat
08-16-2010, 10:31 AM
I would keep him as the 3rd QB all year no matter what I think it would be his best bet, there is no reason to rush him.

DeepThreat
08-16-2010, 10:32 AM
I thought Tebow looked pretty good. He still has away to go mechanically, but he'll have plenty of time. The Broncos don't need him right now. His first game was encouraging considering how big of a project most considered him to be.


I actually agree. I'm far from a Tebow fan, and think he will bust, but he impressed me last night. His release was exactly what I expected, with him rearing back on reasonably deep throws. But he was accurate and had relatively good pocket presence.

He won't be quarterbacking at all this year, but I think he is showing progress.

BeerBaron
08-16-2010, 10:39 AM
I would keep him as the 3rd QB all year no matter what I think it would be his best bet, there is no reason to rush him.

When your #2 looks like washed up dog ****, that might not be an easy thing to do. If something happened to Orton, things would get real hairy there.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-16-2010, 10:48 AM
We definitely didn't learn anything definitive about Tebow, but I will say these things.

- He made some decent throws; throws that you have to make if you stand a chance of being an NFL starter. That was good. However, he seemed a bit late on a lot of his short timing throws and I don't think he would have been nearly as successful if he had been facing Cincy's starting corners instead of the third string defense.

- The whole deal on the throwing motion being a work in progress is kind of ********. One of the hardest things for a quarterback to do is reform how they throw the ball and Tebow has a motion that needs more reforming than any 1st round quarterback I've ever seen. When it comes down to it though, we have seen quarterbacks alter their motion in one offseason (Drew Brees comes to mind) and Tebow had little else to work on for the last 7 months. If he can't keep that motion to together the moment he faces a non-Denver defense, I question whether he'll ever change the motion. All that hard work he apparently put in on his mechanics didn't show at all last night.

I don't think Tebow is sunk or anything, but I've had the hardest time looking at him and saying, "Yes, that is an NFL quarterback" and this game didn't go the least bit towards changing that.

soybean
08-16-2010, 10:55 AM
I just dont get what the point of getting a project qb to make him good, when you could've nabbed a good qb and made him great.

Seems kinda pointless to me. Why waste all that time and effort?

Job
08-16-2010, 11:24 AM
You still dont want your franchise QB trying to plow over 2 starting LB's 5 times a game. He will not last long doing that even if he doesnt get hurt bad he will have lots of minor injuries that will pile up. Because u could see his first instict was to run still.

I don't get that general way of thinking. The guy has the size of some TEs and has a muscular build. He's not Jim Sorgi. I just don't get how TEs and RBs could last running the ball hard but there is no way in **** a QB can do it. I require an explanation.

GoRavens
08-16-2010, 11:38 AM
an old dog can't learn new tricks.
Whatever.
Coaches will let Tebow do his thing and hope for the best.
His ball comes out so dam slow though.
He's going to throw a shitttton of picks, watch.

shinzo123
08-16-2010, 11:39 AM
I don't get that general way of thinking. The guy has the size of some TEs and has a muscular build. He's not Jim Sorgi. I just don't get how TEs and RBs could last running the ball hard but there is no way in **** a QB can do it. I require an explanation.

Indeed, I'm scared for some of the linebackers and definitely the defensive backs, save for Eric berry of course.

Tebow did exactly what we expected of him. Pass for a lot of yards and run for a TD. He will come along nicely, but he isn't ready yet. More Preseason plz.

CC.SD
08-16-2010, 11:47 AM
If he can get it out a little faster, I don't care what it looks like. Rivers still has an ugly throwing motion but I bet Chargers fans don't give a ****. I don't care if Tebow backhands it out of there, if he can get it done quickly and put the ball on target, I'm happy.

lol it's true, no one cares about the motion as long as it gets results.

I'm more worried about a paramedic rushing the field because he thinks Tebow is having a seizure after every throw.

iowatreat54
08-16-2010, 11:54 AM
I can see it now at some point during the season, Tebow is going to drop back to pass with the ball that low and get it knocked out of his hands, and the media will be all over it and how he didn't change his throwing motion. It will turn into a month-long affair.

scottyboy
08-16-2010, 11:58 AM
so wait, he didn't fix everything and didn't have the most perfect stats ever in his first ever game in the NFL?
bust.

iowatreat54
08-16-2010, 12:10 PM
so wait, he didn't fix everything and didn't have the most perfect stats ever in his first ever game in the NFL?
bust.

Seriously, he's been on the team for like what, 4 months? And he hasn't fixed everything?

BUST.

yourfavestoner
08-16-2010, 12:22 PM
heh, tebow reforming his throwing motion...

i wonder if he would've looked so 'good' had he not just followed up the utter abortion of a performance brady quinn tried to put up. yeah, that guy? someone try to tell me he still just needs a chance.

But he ran a pro-style offense in college! According to this board, that means 100% guaranteed success. Since, you know, "pro-style" college offenses are completely the same as NFL ones, and defenses around the NCAA are running pro-style schemes.

DROPBACKZZ PASSERZZZ!!!11ONE

Can we finally end the pro-style quarterback fallacy yet? No college is running an "NFL" offense, and they're not going against NFL schemes, either. It's like saying a kid who took a high school art class is ready to become a world-reknowned painter just because he used the same type of oil-paint as Da Vinci.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-16-2010, 12:24 PM
But he ran a pro-style offense in college! According to this board, that means 100% guaranteed success. Since, you know, "pro-style" college offenses are completely the same as NFL ones, and defenses around the NCAA are running pro-style schemes.

DROPBACKZZ PASSERZZZ!!!11ONE

Also he had no offensive line! You saw what he cud do in college! No not against those teams that were so much better than Notre Dame, against the service academies! He's an amazing QB, he just needs like five seconds of perfect pocket, it isn't his fault if Cleveland and Denver can't give that to him!!!

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2010, 12:49 PM
so wait, he didn't fix everything and didn't have the most perfect stats ever in his first ever game in the NFL?
bust.


Fixed everything? He hasn't fixed ANYTHING.

He made some nice throws when he had time.

But he seriously took a massive hit and fumbled(overturned tuck rule) that if he had even a normal motion, the ball would have been out.

Maybe his mobility will always buy him some time that someone like Byron Leftwich wouldn't have, but when he wants to throw the ball more than 5 yards, he still winds it up.

Bengals78
08-16-2010, 12:57 PM
I don't get that general way of thinking. The guy has the size of some TEs and has a muscular build. He's not Jim Sorgi. I just don't get how TEs and RBs could last running the ball hard but there is no way in **** a QB can do it. I require an explanation.

Easy.
A TE or RB can still play with a bum shoulder. A QB cannot. Especially if it is his throwing arm.
Should that left take too many hits like he did last night, he will be in trouble.

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2010, 01:00 PM
I have no qualms about Tebow playing like he did last night running the ball though. He'll learn to not take all the unnecessary hits, but it's still kinda what makes him special.

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2010, 01:01 PM
this this this. no one's saying that he's terrible and always will be. but there were no differences whatsoever in his throwing motion, after having been told for months that he was really working hard to change it. if anything, some of the motions looked *worse* than what i remember. doesn't mean the dude can't be a solid player (see: vince young), but it does mean that his throwing motion is still atrocious.


Yea, i waited till the 4th quarter to see this, since I've been hearing since the college football season ended that Tebow has totally reworked his motion and all that jazz.

But wow Brady Quinn, just wow. Still terrified to throw the ball more than 5 yards.

Bengals78
08-16-2010, 01:04 PM
this this this. no one's saying that he's terrible and always will be. but there were no differences whatsoever in his throwing motion, after having been told for months that he was really working hard to change it. if anything, some of the motions looked *worse* than what i remember. doesn't mean the dude can't be a solid player (see: vince young), but it does mean that his throwing motion is still atrocious.

I have to agree 100% here.
If those were starting caliber players and not a UDFA coming at him on the sack/fumble/tuck rule, it would have been ugly. Or say, Roy Williams (who can still hit) instead of former Canadian League stand out and special teams player Kyries Herbert.
Or if Dunlap hadn't missed a few weeks with a concussion he might be in better shape and actually gotten Tebow during that wind up.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
08-16-2010, 01:06 PM
Tebow has been supposedly changing his throwing motion since his senior year. It has gotten beaten to death.

georgiafan
08-16-2010, 01:18 PM
I don't get that general way of thinking. The guy has the size of some TEs and has a muscular build. He's not Jim Sorgi. I just don't get how TEs and RBs could last running the ball hard but there is no way in **** a QB can do it. I require an explanation.

Because if years down the line Tebow is a succesful QB making 10 million a year you aren't gonna want your QB plowing through every LB. In college it didnt really matter if he got hurt bc UF had a backup capable of winning the sec. He has the ability to do thats not what I'm saying. In the NFL if he keeps it up he is gonna get hurt you just cant continue to run over everyone and not get hurt. Its great that he fights for every yard on every rush but it will come back to hurt him with a major injury IMO.

sbh15
08-16-2010, 01:25 PM
Because if years down the line Tebow is a succesful QB making 10 million a year you aren't gonna want your QB plowing through every LB. In college it didnt really matter if he got hurt bc UF had a backup capable of winning the sec. He has the ability to do thats not what I'm saying. In the NFL if he keeps it up he is gonna get hurt you just cant continue to run over everyone and not get hurt. Its great that he fights for every yard on every rush but it will come back to hurt him with a major injury IMO.

what? that's the worst justification i've ever heard. you don't go be reckless because the guy behind you is good. he can do that because he's built to take hits. people act like just because he's labeled with the qb tag, a hit will automatically injure him. the guy is a cross between a qb and a fullback, if he were switched to tight end, nobody would give the hits a second thought. he can still take them, and he'll learn when to slide and when to try to power ahead.

BeerBaron
08-16-2010, 01:36 PM
Tebow should not take those hits. it's honestly stupid to think otherwise. You wan to compare him to a RB or TE? Go for it....plenty of RBs, TEs, LBs, FBs...etc....who are even bigger than he is still get hurt. This size argument is just asinine. It takes just one awkward low to the knee or head or neck and suddenly he might not even be playing football anymore.

The thing is, those positions aren't paid like QBs. Most don't potentially carry the weight of the entire team like a great QB has to. I'm not saying Tebow is there, far from it, but one day, he might be and he needs to change that aspect of his game, pronto.

DoughBoy
08-16-2010, 01:48 PM
I don't think this is as big of an issue as some people are making it out to be. Is Tebow's throwing motion good? hell no. But, you got to take in account that he has the mobility to buy himself time to wind up. I think its definitely an issue that is going to have to be resolved later in his career when he loses some of his speed, but for now, give him a few seasons to fix it.

DoughBoy
08-16-2010, 01:58 PM
it's an issue specifically because of the fumble play. you know, the one everyone said was going to happen all last year. the motion *has* to change in order for him to be consistently successful in the nfl. well, or the denver o-line has to get hundreds of times better.

Kurt Warner fumbled 50 bizzlion times in his career and he was still pretty consistent. But then again, Tebow is nothing like Warner so I should probably shut my mouth.

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2010, 02:03 PM
It's not just the fumble thing. He takes so long to wind back that it's basically telegraphing a throw, guys can jump a route because the ball isn't even out and they can see where it's going.

Babylon
08-16-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't think this is as big of an issue as some people are making it out to be. Is Tebow's throwing motion good? hell no. But, you got to take in account that he has the mobility to buy himself time to wind up. I think its definitely an issue that is going to have to be resolved later in his career when he loses some of his speed, but for now, give him a few seasons to fix it.

Coming from a Titans (Vince Young) fan you probably know what you're talking about.

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2010, 02:10 PM
Vince's release is quirky, but it isn't slow.

georgiafan
08-16-2010, 02:15 PM
Also the people who say Tebow has a few years to fix the issues isnt correct. He is gonna be the starter at the latest next year unless Orton for some reason plays out of his mind. I would even predict him to start a few games this year. His a 1st round QB who they are paying alot of money and his going to a team that isnt going to make the playoffs. That arent just going to let him sit for 3 years while he learns to fix everything. With the media coverage he gets every time Orton throws a interception every fan/media person is gonna start calling for Tebow to start this year. Espically with Quinn looking as bad as he did last night.

Timbathia
08-16-2010, 04:29 PM
Also the people who say Tebow has a few years to fix the issues isnt correct. He is gonna be the starter at the latest next year unless Orton for some reason plays out of his mind. I would even predict him to start a few games this year. His a 1st round QB who they are paying alot of money and his going to a team that isnt going to make the playoffs. That arent just going to let him sit for 3 years while he learns to fix everything. With the media coverage he gets every time Orton throws a interception every fan/media person is gonna start calling for Tebow to start this year. Espically with Quinn looking as bad as he did last night.

No-one intelligent will call for Tebow to start over Orton this year (many fans and media personalities will though, including Woody Paige multiple times). The only real concern is if Orton gets injured (very possible).

Denver are not paying Tebow that much money, especially if he sits. His deal will only escalate if he meets incentives by becoming a successful starter. Rivers was getting paid an order of magnitude more money and he sat for 2 years.

bigbluedefense
08-16-2010, 04:44 PM
You can't build Rome in a day. Aaron Rodgers took a couple of years to change his throwing motion.

Everyone knew that if you drafted Tebow, you needed to sit him down and build him up, and that it would take at least 3 years to do so.

Which is why spending a 1st on a project qb was a bit ridiculous. But I won't count him out. As long as he gets the proper structure and support, he has a chance. I'm rooting for him, say what you want about him, the guy is a genuinely good guy and I like rooting for good guys.

I personally wouldn't have drafted him though.

BeerBaron
08-16-2010, 04:44 PM
Denver are not paying Tebow that much money, especially if he sits. His deal will only escalate if he meets incentives by becoming a successful starter. Rivers was getting paid an order of magnitude more money and he sat for 2 years.

Drew Brees was also playing very well and the Chargers were a playoff contender when Rivers was sitting.

As much as I supported Orton when he was a Bear and still like him, he is an above-average QB at the absolute best. When the team around him is capable of playing well, he'll do well enough to make the team a contender.

I'm not sure I see that in Denver though with every RB on the shelf, lack of proven weapons in the passing game and a defense without it's best player. If they get knocked out of contention early on, don't be surprised if Tebow gets some garbage time starts late in the year as fan/media pressure could force McDaniels into it.

I don't think he should play, but I absolutely won't be surprised if we see him late in the year.

Shiver
08-16-2010, 05:00 PM
Too bad McDaniels will be fired long before Tim Tebow is ready to start in the NFL. Then who knows what will happen with him.

Job
08-16-2010, 05:03 PM
For some reason I have faith in McDaniels. I can't rationalize my thinking, though.

nepg
08-16-2010, 05:04 PM
Orton's super-efficient in that offense. The guy doesn't get the respect and praise he deserves because people view him as a throw-in in the Cutler trade and not a legitimate starting QB, which he has proven to be.

LonghornsLegend
08-16-2010, 05:27 PM
Vince's release is quirky, but it isn't slow.

Exactly. Everyone always wants to bring up Vince but he has a very fast release, and not only that, he's 6'5 and never brings the ball down below his waist. That's the primary problem here. VY keeps the ball up near his head and released it very fast, Tebow isn't 6'5 either, so dropping it as low as he did is even gonna present even more problems.


The problem isn't that he doesn't have a textbook release, teams will work with that, which is why they never bothered to try and change VY's, but you can't have a long, slow windup and think you can drop the ball below your waist every time. Ask Leftwich. Everytime there is pressure on a guy like that he'll fumble 50% of the time more then likely.

BeerBaron
08-16-2010, 05:38 PM
The problem isn't that he doesn't have a textbook release, teams will work with that, which is why they never bothered to try and change VY's, but you can't have a long, slow windup and think you can drop the ball below your waist every time. Ask Leftwich. Everytime there is pressure on a guy like that he'll fumble 50% of the time more then likely.

And Leftwich is ever worse than Tebow....I caught some of the Steelers game and while Leftwich wasn't terrible, (his o-line blew chunks pretty bad though) his release was still catapault slow. That's definitely going to be a problem.

Timbathia
08-16-2010, 06:00 PM
Too bad McDaniels will be fired long before Tim Tebow is ready to start in the NFL. Then who knows what will happen with him.

If your assertion is that Tebow will never be ready, then perhaps you could be right. If you are saying McDaniels wont last 2 years, then I absolutely totally 100% disagree.

Brent
08-16-2010, 06:24 PM
it's not that it's slow (heck, Byron Leftwich is still in the league), it's that he takes the ball so low before releasing that would scare me away.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-16-2010, 06:36 PM
You can't build Rome in a day. Aaron Rodgers took a couple of years to change his throwing motion.

Rodgers didn't change his throwing motion. It's exactly the same. What he did do is stop holding the ball at eye level, dropping it down more to his neck and chest, which helped him wrap it up when hit from behind and lowering the profile of his arms to blindside rusher. Even that took him a little while before it became automatic.

The difference between reforming Rodgers and reforming Tebow is the difference between altering the suspension on a car and replacing the entire engine.

Rosebud
08-16-2010, 06:52 PM
Kurt Warner fumbled 50 bizzlion times in his career and he was still pretty consistent. But then again, Tebow is nothing like Warner so I should probably shut my mouth.

Kurt Warner does throw one of the most ****** footballs I've ever seen though, so you can't compare his mechanics to anyone. From the grip to throwing motion you do not want any QB other than Kurt Warner trying to throw the ball the way he does.

BeerBaron
08-16-2010, 07:03 PM
Kurt Warner does throw one of the most ****** footballs I've ever seen though, so you can't compare his mechanics to anyone. From the grip to throwing motion you do not want any QB other than Kurt Warner trying to throw the ball the way he does.

Was it Trent Green that didn't use the laces? Can't remember for sure.....Saw it talked about on ESPN a few years back when they were discussing throwing motions. But the point there was that you can get away with being a bit irregular in your throwing motion, as long as it doesn't make you slow or expose the ball too much.

And those are the two problems Tebow has going.

Rosebud
08-16-2010, 07:49 PM
Was it Trent Green that didn't use the laces? Can't remember for sure.....Saw it talked about on ESPN a few years back when they were discussing throwing motions. But the point there was that you can get away with being a bit irregular in your throwing motion, as long as it doesn't make you slow or expose the ball too much.

And those are the two problems Tebow has going.

I think that was Kurt since he basically palms the end of the ball, if that makes sense. As the grip doesn't even come close to the laces.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-16-2010, 08:00 PM
Rich Gannon didn't always use the laces either.

Rosebud
08-16-2010, 08:51 PM
bradshaw held his index finger on the tip of the ball, i believe doug williams never used laces, elway got closer to the middle of the ball than anyone i remember seeing. none of those things have anything to do with their actual release, though, so like BB said, they're all mostly irrelevant.

i have serious doubts that tebow's motion can be reformed at this point. he looks like a guy who, no matter how much he studies, plays on 99% instinct when the play is happening. this doesn't, alone, mean much. but i think that he'll lose effectiveness when he has to stop and think about how to throw, and i think that he'll 'forget' every single time things break down. then the only issue is, is he good enough otherwise to overcome that.

Instincts are learned and developed though. If he doesn't play this season and gets all year to drill the new instinct without re-inforcing the old instinct in game situations he can change it. I can't remember the study but the conclusions they came to where that it takes around 10,000 repetitions for muscle memory to developed, that seems about right from personal experience if you discount tripping....because while tripping muscle memory can be developed overnight, see my grip when I'm playing pool...so if re-developing muscle memory takes a similar number of reps it's plausible that Tebow could change his throwing motion, and he is in a good situation provided Orton stays healthy.

Job
08-16-2010, 09:31 PM
Instincts are learned and developed though. If he doesn't play this season and gets all year to drill the new instinct without re-inforcing the old instinct in game situations he can change it. I can't remember the study but the conclusions they came to where that it takes around 10,000 repetitions for muscle memory to developed, that seems about right from personal experience if you discount tripping....because while tripping muscle memory can be developed overnight, see my grip when I'm playing pool...so if re-developing muscle memory takes a similar number of reps it's plausible that Tebow could change his throwing motion, and he is in a good situation provided Orton stays healthy.

You have the wrong definition of instinct.

49erNation85
08-16-2010, 09:44 PM
I thought he had a very good game from what I saw from the high lights on Sports Center . The couple of drops by the WR were there faults.I was a little dissapointed this his wind up is a still a little slow and almost the same as it was in College.I don't see them using Tebow as start or at least I hope not.They need to let him develop into that role and fix that motion or at least get him to not bring his arm down SO far. The second pass that was almost intercepted I think either the WR got cought up in the 2 guys defending or it was overthrown or short. Besides the fumble and few dropped passes I think overral he had a B performance game for being in with the 3rd team O . Even I hate to say , but it did look like he was going back to routes at scrambling, I hope he changes his ways within the two years Orton has left on his contract .He still got a long way to go be a successful QB . I can't wait to see his next game.Nice job out there Tebow !

Bengals78
08-16-2010, 09:48 PM
I thought he had a very good game from what I saw from the high lights on Sports Center . The couple of drops by the WR were there faults.I was a little dissapointed this his wind up is a still a little slow and almost the same as it was in College.I don't see them using Tebow as start or at least I hope not.They need to let him develop into that role and fix that motion or at least get him to not bring his arm down SO far. The second pass that was almost intercepted I think either the WR got cought up in the 2 guys defending or it was overthrown or short. Besides the fumble and few dropped passes I think overral he had a B performance game for being in with the 3rd team O . Even I hate to say , but it did look like he was going back to routes at scrambling, I hope he changes his ways within the two years Orton has left on his contract .He still got a long way to go be a successful QB . I can't wait to see his next game.Nice job out there Tebow !

Well, there's your problem

hoekd0250
08-16-2010, 09:56 PM
im not to worried about tebows mechanics yet, most qbs work to change that during there qb camps in the offseason, so look for it next year as that will be the determining factor on if he can pick up on it because of mcdaniels skill to reform qbs into quality starters. which pp forget is what got him the hc job in denver

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-16-2010, 09:57 PM
im not to worried about tebows mechanics yet, most qbs work to change that during there qb camps in the offseason, so look for it next year as that will be the determining factor on if he can pick up on it because of mcdaniels skill to reform qbs into quality starters. which pp forget is what got him the hc job in denver

I don't think that's why he got the job. I don't think Bowlen was looking at him and saying, this guy can reform our 25 year old pro bowl QB who was 2nd in the NFL in passing yards into a quality starter. Just a hunch.

Timbathia
08-16-2010, 10:42 PM
I don't think that's why he got the job. I don't think Bowlen was looking at him and saying, this guy can reform our 25 year old pro bowl QB who was 2nd in the NFL in passing yards into a quality starter. Just a hunch.

Yeah, Bowlen was smart enough to realise that there was no hope for Cutler. zing.

FUNBUNCHER
08-16-2010, 11:48 PM
With Tebow's molasses slow release some of you keep talking about, I guess it's a miracle he ever completed a pass in the SEC.

Sarcasm aside, if the conference with arguably the most athletic secondary players in the country couldn't telegraph Tebow's passes, maybe the whole 'slow windup' issue is being overblown.

sbh15
08-16-2010, 11:51 PM
i don't think the problem is as much the slow release as it is what makes it slow, and that's the dropping of the ball. although it all should be worked on a lot. i think tebow will always do his best work outside of the pocket, though. he made a couple good throws on the run last night, where he's obviously not going to be able to set his feet and dip the ball down.

edit: i just realized how stupid that first sentence sounded. the ball dip is a problem. that is all.

soybean
08-17-2010, 12:02 AM
With Tebow's molasses slow release some of you keep talking about, I guess it's a miracle he ever complete a pass in the SEC.

Sarcasm aside, if the conference with arguably the most athletic secondary players in the country couldn't telegraph Tebow's passes, maybe the whole 'slow windup' issue is being overblown.

Definitely. If you can play qb in the SEC you can definitely play in the NFL. I mean look at Rex Grossman, Andre Woodson, Jason Campbell and Jamarcus Russell. Haters gon' hate.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-17-2010, 12:22 AM
The ball dip and the release speed are both problems. One is going to be a constant yet somewhat minimal problem, the other is going to be occasionally disastrous.

If you want strong evidence of how much a slow release can hurt a guy, look at Byron Leftwich. He's had a few other problems in his career, but he's also a tremendously hard worker who was 10x the passer Tebow was coming out of college, but he's always suffered from safeties and linebackers who are playing face-up getting that extra moment to get a jump on the ball. Looking a defender off doesn't really do much when your pump-fake looks nothing like your actual release and that release is blatantly obvious and takes forever. Bringing up college play doesn't mean crap here. After all, Leftwich passed for almost 12,000 yards and 89 touchdowns. The release speed will hurt Tebow. He needs to get back the point we saw him at prior to the NFL draft, or he's going to have the slowest release in the NFL and it won't even be close.

As for the ball dip, it's horrible. Simply horrendous. Tebow is a strong guy, but no one is going to reliably hold onto a football when a 280 man crashes into their back at full speed. That ball is so far away from his body that there's no way he'll be able to drag it back in and hold onto it.

The truth is, if he solves one of these problems, he's solved both of them. They are both part of his incredibly funky manner of delivering the football. While I think he's overexposed, I do with Tebow luck in fighting the ridiculously uphill battle he's facing. He spent a whole offseason reforming his mechanics and lost it all the moment he stepped on the field. Signs don't look good.

nepg
08-17-2010, 12:39 AM
Rodgers didn't change his throwing motion. It's exactly the same. What he did do is stop holding the ball at eye level, dropping it down more to his neck and chest, which helped him wrap it up when hit from behind and lowering the profile of his arms to blindside rusher. Even that took him a little while before it became automatic.

The difference between reforming Rodgers and reforming Tebow is the difference between altering the suspension on a car and replacing the entire engine.

Rodgers' problems were minimal. He had become too mechanical from Tedford (as most Tedford QBs are). He had like 3 years under great QB coaching to loosen up. Loosening up also increased his armstrength by vast amounts.

Tebow's is a huge problem. It's a 6 turn over game waiting to happen. It's slow and it's dangerous. They should probably put a brace on his elbow so he can only extend it so far and not rotate it a certain way. Maybe get a shock collar.

There are certain aspects that he's improved on greatly that are obvious. McDaniels has brought him a long ways. It is important to remember that this guy is a 2 years on the bench project. Everyone knew that going in.

BeerBaron
08-17-2010, 01:08 AM
There are certain aspects that he's improved on greatly that are obvious. McDaniels has brought him a long ways. It is important to remember that this guy is a 2 years on the bench project. Everyone knew that going in.

That may be what he is, but I don't believe he'll get all of that. I'm willing to buy it that, barring an injury to Orton and exhausting veteran options, he won't be forced to go full time this season. But after this season, I could absolutely see the pressure mount to play him.

LonghornsLegend
08-17-2010, 01:29 AM
Definitely. If you can play qb in the SEC you can definitely play in the NFL. I mean look at Rex Grossman, Andre Woodson, Jason Campbell and Jamarcus Russell. Haters gon' hate.

Lol right. As we all know, if your a good QB in the SEC then that = NFL success!!!

Saints-Tigers
08-17-2010, 01:48 AM
When he has time, he clearly can deliver the ball accurately down the field.

This is the NFL though, who can't do that when given a clean throw to an open guy?

yo123
08-17-2010, 01:52 AM
He made a few plays on the run that most NFL quarterbacks can't make, I'll definitely give him that. That's what leaves me conflicted with this guy. He does a few things at such a high level but I'm just not sure if that's enough to overcome the terrible, long delivery and the questionable ability to make progressions and find (and hit) the guy that's not wide open. I would lean towards no but I think he'll be a top 15-20 or so quarterback. Not exactly what I'm looking for in a 1st round pick but oh well. Thank God we didn't end up with him.

Saints-Tigers
08-17-2010, 03:22 AM
I think what stood out the most, past my own biasedness, is my friend's dad, a huge Tebow lover screamed out "He's not even looking over the defenses!"

And then I knew I wasn't crazy.

BeerBaron
08-17-2010, 09:47 AM
When he has time, he clearly can deliver the ball accurately down the field.

This is the NFL though, who can't do that when given a clean throw to an open guy?

How far down the field are we talking? Because there are actually a number of past and current starters that come to mind who'll miss a guy downfield.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-17-2010, 09:52 AM
When he has time, he clearly can deliver the ball accurately down the field.

This is the NFL though, who can't do that when given a clean throw to an open guy?

http://www.crossingwallstreet.com/p1.brady.quinn.pw

21ST
08-17-2010, 12:45 PM
When he has time, he clearly can deliver the ball accurately down the field.

This is the NFL though, who can't do that when given a clean throw to an open guy?

Jason Campbell

Babylon
08-17-2010, 12:53 PM
If this is going to be a week to week judging of how he looks out there then it's going to be a long year around here. He was 8 for 13 for a 100 or so yards and had a clear drop down the right side that would have made his numbers look pretty nice. Forget the style points with this guy and measure him by how many Ws he gets.

sbh15
08-17-2010, 01:23 PM
If this is going to be a week to week judging of how he looks out there then it's going to be a long year around here. He was 8 for 13 for a 100 or so yards and had a clear drop down the right side that would have made his numbers look pretty nice. Forget the style points with this guy and measure him by how many Ws he gets.

there are a lot of guys you can say that for, but tebow isn't one just yet. for example, vince young will never be a 100 rating qb, maybe never even a 90 qb rating for the rest of his career, but the titans do win with him behind center.

for tebow, however, a lot is still up in the air. sure, if the release is as little problem against starters as it was against cincy's third stringers, he'll be fine. but he was basically playing against a slightly upgraded sec opponent that game (not exactly a great comparison... the point is, the competition was weak).

BeerBaron
08-17-2010, 05:58 PM
I found this funny:

"The terminology I'm somewhat familiar with," Quinn said. "It's something that, here and there, having a little experience in the NFL, I can kind of give him some advice."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp10/news/story?id=5471817

Quinn giving Tebow advice......I'd tell Tebow to stay way the hell away from any of Quinn's advice....maybe Tebow is just going to take it and do the opposite.

TACKLE
08-17-2010, 06:12 PM
Quinn giving Tebow advice......I'd tell Tebow to stay way the hell away from any of Quinn's advice....maybe Tebow is just going to take it and do the opposite.

The George Costanza way of thinking. If every decision Quinn makes on the field is wrong, the opposite must be right.

BeerBaron
08-18-2010, 01:40 AM
Watching the end of the Bengals/Broncos replay on NFLN and Tebow looks worse the 2nd time through. He still looks like a college player with everyone else moving at pro speed. He had a pass that I'm sure would have been picked off had it been the Bengals starters instead of the scrubs.

His motion is still faster than Byron Leftwich's. That's like barely winning a "Who is the least ********" contest though...

Bengals78
08-18-2010, 01:43 AM
I just cant get over the wind up. That sack/tuck rule play would have been brutal with a starting S out there.

Me Likey Rookies
08-18-2010, 08:16 PM
Tebow was held out of practice with an injury. It looks like it might have something to do with his ribs; that TD run might not have been a good idea...

I just wanted to add that while his throwing motion definitely needs to improve, lets not forget that when he takes over, his starting OTs will be Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris. This is one of the best duos in the league.

When both were healthy last year, Orton had all day to throw and had a 6-0 record. Tebow will likely have that much time to throw so the motion is not as huge as it would be if his oline sucked balls.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-18-2010, 08:48 PM
Tebow was held out of practice with an injury. It looks like it might have something to do with his ribs; that TD run might not have been a good idea...



God just took one of them so he can create the perfect woman.

nepg
08-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Tebow was held out of practice with an injury. It looks like it might have something to do with his ribs; that TD run might not have been a good idea...

I just wanted to add that while his throwing motion definitely needs to improve, lets not forget that when he takes over, his starting OTs will be Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris. This is one of the best duos in the league.

When both were healthy last year, Orton had all day to throw and had a 6-0 record. Tebow will likely have that much time to throw so the motion is not as huge as it would be if his oline sucked balls.

Doesn't have much to do with protection (though that's a part of it). When you take that long to throw the ball and your pump fake looks nothing like your actual throwing motion, NFL-caliber DBs are going to eat him alive.

Bengals78
08-18-2010, 09:04 PM
Factor in when he starts his wind up, he wont be able to stop and throw elsewhere DB's will read that **** and swarm.

Jimmy
08-18-2010, 10:20 PM
Tom Tebow iz teh best. Everywon stop haiting on him, he is a man from god who is a good person and likes to win alot.

BeerBaron
08-18-2010, 10:26 PM
Factor in when he starts his wind up, he wont be able to stop and throw elsewhere DB's will read that **** and swarm.

I think someone mentioned it earlier in this thread about not being able to pump fake. A QB with a shorter release only needs to dip their shoulder a bit and it can freeze a DB and create just enough space to stick the ball in. But with such a long windup, someone like Tebow won't be able to do that.

Timbathia
08-18-2010, 10:45 PM
Tebow was held out of practice with an injury. It looks like it might have something to do with his ribs; that TD run might not have been a good idea...


I still think in the situation it was a brilliant idea. A rookie showing his new team-mates that he is prepared to put his body on the line gains huge respect, and he has also given McDaniels more of a reason to think about designing red-zone packages with him in at QB.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-18-2010, 10:48 PM
http://i38.tinypic.com/9tk1ly.jpg

georgiafan
08-19-2010, 09:56 AM
Tebow was held out of practice with an injury. It looks like it might have something to do with his ribs; that TD run might not have been a good idea...

I just wanted to add that while his throwing motion definitely needs to improve, lets not forget that when he takes over, his starting OTs will be Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris. This is one of the best duos in the league.

When both were healthy last year, Orton had all day to throw and had a 6-0 record. Tebow will likely have that much time to throw so the motion is not as huge as it would be if his oline sucked balls.

Which points to what i was saying a few days back he will not be able to stay healthy trying to run over people. Heck he got on like his career carry or something like that and it was agianst people that wont even make the team.

LonghornsLegend
08-19-2010, 01:15 PM
I still think in the situation it was a brilliant idea. A rookie showing his new team-mates that he is prepared to put his body on the line gains huge respect, and he has also given McDaniels more of a reason to think about designing red-zone packages with him in at QB.


You just don't do stuff like that with your franchise QB. Use him like a battering ram at the red zone to start his career? He could of very easily broken his ribs in that pre-season game, he's really really lucky he didn't. Doesn't matter how big or strong or thick he really is, you just can't treat your QB that way if you wan't him to last.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-19-2010, 01:22 PM
Not as a battering ram, but an option package to use near the goal line wouldn't be an awful idea.

Rosebud
08-19-2010, 01:53 PM
There are just some players who can just take a beating. Brett Favre used to be one of those guys, Eli Manning is one of those guys and I think Tim Tebow is one of those guys. He won't get serious injuries that'll take him out of the game often and he'll play the through the lesser nicks which won't impede him as much as a QB as they would a RB or TE. As long as Tebow's shoulder isn't taken out because of his windup I don't see injuries as too big of a problem as long as Tebow's not trying to run people over on every play.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-19-2010, 01:54 PM
There are just some players who can just take a beating. Brett Favre used to be one of those guys, Eli Manning is one of those guys and I think Tim Tebow is one of those guys. He won't get serious injuries that'll take him out of the game often and he'll play the through the lesser nicks which won't impede him as much as a QB as they would a RB or TE. As long as Tebow's shoulder isn't taken out because of his windup I don't see injuries as too big of a problem as long as Tebow's not trying to run people over on every play.

But he is teh big investmentzzzzz!!!!

Paranoidmoonduck
08-19-2010, 07:59 PM
There are just some players who can just take a beating. Brett Favre used to be one of those guys, Eli Manning is one of those guys and I think Tim Tebow is one of those guys. He won't get serious injuries that'll take him out of the game often and he'll play the through the lesser nicks which won't impede him as much as a QB as they would a RB or TE. As long as Tebow's shoulder isn't taken out because of his windup I don't see injuries as too big of a problem as long as Tebow's not trying to run people over on every play.

Considering he got a pretty bad concussion last year, I'm not sure where this ineffable "won't get injured" thing is coming from. Favre isn't a great example either considering the guy was addicted to painkillers for years.