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H.O.O.D
08-21-2010, 01:15 PM
I come with a question that stems from a thread on a 49ers forum. It came from a tweet Peter King responded to, saying he'd take Revis or Willis.

You would take revis over P.Willis? ... Every day. Twice on Sunday. CBs far more important than ILBs.

So the question is simple, who would you take Revis or Willis and WHY?

Personally I'd take the shut down corner everyday all day. And yes I am a 9ers fan, but the majority of 49ers fans are picking Willis (I know shocking right ?) but I'd love to hear less biased takes on this...

Rosebud
08-21-2010, 01:16 PM
I'd take Revis but I'd take Jared Allen or DeMarcus Ware over either one. Frankly I'd take Albert Haynesworth, Kevin Williams and a whole host of defensive lineman over either one, but between those two I take Revis.

Are you adding a poll?

Paranoidmoonduck
08-21-2010, 01:20 PM
I'd take Revis first. Willis a great athlete, but he's pretty far from the perfect inside linebacker and one can survive with that sort of talent in the middle of your linebacking corps.

In today's game, having a guy like Revis is more important.

zachsaints52
08-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Im taking Willis.

H.O.O.D
08-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Im taking Willis.

Reasoning....why ?

zachsaints52
08-21-2010, 01:27 PM
Mainly because I look at things more then just on the field. I look at everything and not to mention he is the best ILB in the game, noone can really doubt that (Maybe if other ILBs were in their primes or non injury prone there would be a better case) but you can argue that Nnamdi is the top corner. And yes, CB is more important then ILB. But its also the fact that Willis will do everything right on and off the field. Not saying Revis hasnt, but I just would take Willis.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-21-2010, 01:30 PM
See, the choice would be a lot closer if Willis was a more complete player. You can absolutely argue that the more disciplined and better playcalling Jon Beason is right on par overall with Willis, just not in the facets of the game that Willis excels at.

Let's not pretend that Willis does everything perfectly. He doesn't.

umphrey
08-21-2010, 01:36 PM
I picked Revis but I wouldn't want a player that won't step on a football field for anything less than $150 million. I assumed the poll was talking about Sunday performance.

Ness
08-21-2010, 01:38 PM
Willis. Not even a biased answer. I'd probably say the same thing if it was Beason also. The front seven controls everything. If they are awful, the secondary is not going to have much success.

umphrey
08-21-2010, 02:03 PM
Willis. Not even a biased answer. I'd probably say the same thing if it was Beason also. The front seven controls everything. If they are awful, the secondary is not going to have much success.

I would agree except I don't think you can make that argument for the ILB. Willis and his 9 career sacks doesn't do much to stop the top passing games that power the elite teams these days. Revis shutting down Randy Moss? That wins games.

thenewfeature06
08-21-2010, 02:11 PM
Lol. Revis on Moss in Minny, doesn't stand a damn chance!

Ness
08-21-2010, 02:14 PM
I would agree except I don't think you can make that argument for the ILB. Willis and his 9 career sacks doesn't do much to stop the top passing games that power the elite teams these days. Revis shutting down Randy Moss? That wins games.

Revis won't shut down Moss though if the quarterback has all day to throw the ball. Receivers know where they are going and already have an advantage over defensive backs for that very purpose. The most talented secondary in the world isn't going to do anything if the front seven is garbage.

Rosebud
08-21-2010, 02:17 PM
Revis won't shut down Moss though if the quarterback has all day to throw the ball. Receivers know where they are going and already have an advantage over defensive backs for that very purpose. The most talented secondary in the world isn't going to do anything if the front seven is garbage.

You're making an argument for why the DL is more important than the secondary.

I think this is any easy decision, you only need decent LBs to win a superbowl but you need your corners to at least be good, at least at the time. And a great CB is going to change the game more than a great ILB if you have a great DL or not because with a great DL you won't need a great LB to clean up behind them, but if you're DL sucks that great LB is going to get washed out anyway.

Ness
08-21-2010, 02:22 PM
You're making an argument for why the DL is more important than the secondary.

I think this is any easy decision, you only need decent LBs to win a superbowl but you need your corners to at least be good, at least at the time. And a great CB is going to change the game more than a great ILB if you have a great DL or not because with a great DL you won't need a great LB to clean up behind them, but if you're DL sucks that great LB is going to get washed out anyway.
The front seven doesn't include just the defensive line. If I have to start somewhere, I'll start with the front seven, not the secondary.

And you don't need really good corners if your front seven is great.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-21-2010, 02:38 PM
It's not a sensible argument though. Any 7 players on the defense are going to be more important than the other 4 simply by sheer force of numbers. To lump Willis' specific position in with other (more valuable) positions doesn't make any more sense than lumping Revis in with other (less valuable) defensive back position.

Babylon
08-21-2010, 02:40 PM
I took Willis mainly because i think he can take away more of the field (and hurt QBs). The old saying about Deon Sanders taking away half the field really wasnt true because you can overload his side and he isnt taking away anyone but his man basically.

descendency
08-21-2010, 02:50 PM
a true shutdown corner is way more valuable than any ILB.

Revis is a true shutdown corner, therefore he is more valuable than Willis.

Lol. Revis on Moss in Minny, doesn't stand a damn chance!

No one could cover that Moss.

Rosebud
08-21-2010, 03:21 PM
The front seven doesn't include just the defensive line. If I have to start somewhere, I'll start with the front seven, not the secondary.

And you don't need really good corners if your front seven is great.

And I'll take the front and back 8 over the middle 3.

And you do still need your corners to be good, not great, not even necessarily really good, but they need to be at least good while you can make do with mediocre/just decent linebackers.

phlysac
08-21-2010, 03:24 PM
Stupid comparison of two amazingly talented defensive Studs.

1. QB
2. LT
3. DE
4. CB
.
.
.
. ILB

descendency
08-21-2010, 03:40 PM
Stupid comparison of two amazingly talented defensive Studs.

1. QB
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2. LT
3. DE
4. CB
.
.
.
. ILB

Fixed for the 49er fan ;) (just teasing)

Michigan
08-21-2010, 05:27 PM
On the field: Revis (easily...)
Off the field: Willis

fenikz
08-21-2010, 06:04 PM
Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

abaddon41_80
08-21-2010, 06:08 PM
I have to wonder why the poll is Revis vs. Willis instead of Asomugha vs. Willis? I thought everyone knew that Asomugha was the best corner but I guess I was wrong. Revis looks great with an elite pass rush but Asomugha does it when opposing quarterbacks have all day to throw. Put Asomugha on the Jets and teams will complete less than 10 passes on him every season

On topic though I would take Willis over Revis but Asomugha over Willis, all other things being equal.

H.O.O.D
08-21-2010, 06:19 PM
I have to wonder why the poll is Revis vs. Willis instead of Asomugha vs. Willis? I thought everyone knew that Asomugha was the best corner but I guess I was wrong. Revis looks great with an elite pass rush but Asomugha does it when opposing quarterbacks have all day to throw. Put Asomugha on the Jets and teams will complete less than 10 passes on him every season

On topic though I would take Willis over Revis but Asomugha over Willis, all other things being equal.

Revis vs Aso is a topic for another thread. Like stated in the o.p., it all stemmed from a PK tweet.

Brent
08-21-2010, 06:55 PM
I take Revis, assuming he isnt hold out.

Basileus777
08-21-2010, 07:01 PM
I have to wonder why the poll is Revis vs. Willis instead of Asomugha vs. Willis? I thought everyone knew that Asomugha was the best corner but I guess I was wrong. Revis looks great with an elite pass rush but Asomugha does it when opposing quarterbacks have all day to throw. Put Asomugha on the Jets and teams will complete less than 10 passes on him every season

On topic though I would take Willis over Revis but Asomugha over Willis, all other things being equal.

Elite pass rush? The Jets?

The Jets actually have a poor pass rush. They get by by blitzing all the time, which is possible in large part because they can leave Revis out in single coverage.

H.O.O.D
08-21-2010, 07:04 PM
Elite pass rush? The Jets?

The Jets actually have a poor pass rush. They get by by blitzing all the time, which is possible in large part because they can leave Revis out in single coverage.

The Raiders actually had more sacks than the Jets did last year.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
08-21-2010, 07:26 PM
Revis. Take two elite players at their position, assuming both are elite as they are in this instance, and the CB will be much more impacting to a game than the ILB. A CB like Revis changes a gameplan by cutting off half the field. An ILB can make sideline to sideline plays and be solid in coverage, but taking out a WR regardless of where he lines up on the field is very rare to find. Revis for me, but then again i'm a Jets fan, so don't take me serious i guess....

abaddon41_80
08-21-2010, 08:19 PM
Elite pass rush? The Jets?

The Jets actually have a poor pass rush. They get by by blitzing all the time, which is possible in large part because they can leave Revis out in single coverage.

Whether it is because they blitz or because their front seven is good, the Jets put more pressure on opposing quarterbacks then pretty much every team in the league last year. It was definitely better than the Raiders

prock
08-21-2010, 08:22 PM
No one could cover that Moss.

Moss is the reason I started watching football, when I was 7 years old in 1998. He will always be my favorite player.

On subject, give me Revis.

PACKmanN
08-21-2010, 08:29 PM
i think you guys are not understanding what an impact a ILB could make, someone like Willis can be an intimidation to both the RB and QB which can shutdown either part of the offense. Not only that, but he can make more plays in the game which can change the momentum and have the defense play better on every down.

Yes Revis can shutdown half the feild, but what could he do to motivate the other 11 players if he can't get his hands on the ball(other than yap his mouth off) to give his defensemen the needed boost.

Plus an ILB is usually the leader and person others look to on the defense

A lot of people will say that having a CB who can take away the number 1 WR on the other team is elite, but imo, taking away the TE is more important than the WR. Hear me out, most, if not all, the qbs in the league use the TE/RB as an underneath route to build the momentum are the first routes they look at, you take away the safety route from the qb and you're already in his head

TACKLE
08-21-2010, 08:37 PM
i think you guys are not understanding what an impact a ILB could make, someone like Willis can be an intimidation to both the RB and QB which can shutdown either part of the offense. Not only that, but he can make more plays in the game which can change the momentum and have the defense play better on every down.

Yes Revis can shutdown half the feild, but what could he do to motivate the other 11 players if he can't get his hands on the ball(other than yap his mouth off) to give his defensemen the needed boost.

Plus an ILB is usually the leader and person others look to on the defense

By your standard of the impact an ILB can have, Ray Lewis would certainly have a greater impact than Willis. Ray is a FAR better intimidator, game changer, motivator and leader than Willis. Not to mention he has much better control of his defense and is much better at putting his guys in the right place to make plays.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Plus an ILB is usually the leader and person others look to on the defense

True, but mostly undermined in this case by the fact that Spikes is the guy who makes sure everyone is in position and calls the plays for the Niners.

PACKmanN
08-22-2010, 01:02 AM
True, but mostly undermined in this case by the fact that Spikes is the guy who makes sure everyone is in position and calls the plays for the Niners.

I don't know why that may be, maybe because of Spikes being a Vet and it would be easier for him to get the respect from everyone because he's older and has been around longer, but without a doubt in my mind, Willis will be that guy once Spikes isn't resigned

Saints-Tigers
08-22-2010, 01:08 AM
Tough, probably Revis. CBs and ILBs are pretty low on how I would build a defense.

Willis can't be slept on either though, he's the only guy I've ever seen single cover Reggie Bush for an entire game and shut down his receiving game.

Willis is pretty versatile on what you can do with him, and probably has more impact in a vacuum, but on a great D, Revis is probably more valuable.

Michigan
08-22-2010, 01:15 AM
Revis. Take two elite players at their position, assuming both are elite as they are in this instance, and the CB will be much more impacting to a game than the ILB. A CB like Revis changes a gameplan by cutting off half the field. An ILB can make sideline to sideline plays and be solid in coverage, but taking out a WR regardless of where he lines up on the field is very rare to find. Revis for me, but then again i'm a Jets fan, so don't take me serious i guess....

ILB's make MUCH more of an impact than CB's do. It's just that you can plug in mediocre guys at ILB and succeed while you can't plug in mediocre guys at CB and expect the same. Thus, elite CB's are far more valuable.

Oh, and guys, let's stop using the "taking away half the field" hyperbole. It's obnoxious.

Shiver
08-22-2010, 01:25 AM
Linebacker is probably the last in the defensive pecking order. Even Ray Lewis, one of the greatest of all time, complained and whined like a little girl until they got him Haloti Ngata to take up blockers for him. ILB/MLB don't affect the passing game, which is big in today's NFL last time I checked, and they don't impact the run defense if their defensive tacklers aren't up to par. Darrelle Revis every day of the week.

Saints-Tigers
08-22-2010, 01:32 AM
Linebacker is probably the last in the defensive pecking order. Even Ray Lewis, one of the greatest of all time, complained and whined like a little girl until they got him Haloti Ngata to take up blockers for him. ILB/MLB don't affect the passing game, which is big in today's NFL last time I checked, and they don't impact the run defense if their defensive tacklers aren't up to par. Darrelle Revis every day of the week.


False. Very false.

Shiver
08-22-2010, 01:38 AM
Yeah, the top-five pass defenses were:

New York
Buffalo
Denver
Carolina
Green Bay
Cincinnati

Surely it had nothing to do with the fact that all of them had from above average to great corners. It was surely their MLB play!

619
08-22-2010, 01:40 AM
False. Very false.

You would know. Vilma being one of the better examples out there of a MLB/ILB who can plug the run, cover in zones, and rush the QB. If a team has a corps of backers who can do all three effectively, then that obviously adds to the unpredictability of the defense, and it's value can't be undermined.

Ness
08-22-2010, 02:11 AM
It's not a sensible argument though. Any 7 players on the defense are going to be more important than the other 4 simply by sheer force of numbers. To lump Willis' specific position in with other (more valuable) positions doesn't make any more sense than lumping Revis in with other (less valuable) defensive back position.

The number of personnel don't really have anything to do with it since there are 11 people on the opposing team. It's just simple logic. The more push and domination the front seven gets, the easier the secondary's job is going to be. Willis is part of a more, in my opinion, valuable unit. Revis is not.

Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

Right, because all Willis does is tackle. Kurt Warner probably has a different opinion about that.

Saints-Tigers
08-22-2010, 02:37 AM
Yeah, the top-five pass defenses were:

New York
Buffalo
Denver
Carolina
Green Bay
Cincinnati

Surely it had nothing to do with the fact that all of them had from above average to great corners. It was surely their MLB play!

I never said it was the most important thing, but you said they don't affect it.

Those teams have strong MLB play anyway, bad example.


You would know. Vilma being one of the better examples out there of a MLB/ILB who can plug the run, cover in zones, and rush the QB. If a team has a corps of backers who can do all three effectively, then that obviously adds to the unpredictability of the defense, and it's value can't be undermined.

I've watched enough teams carve us up over the years on little dump offs and screen plays to know that a LB that covers that well is so valuable.

Guys like Willis can take away the short middle of the field and destroy swing passes and dump offs that have become so popular.

PACKmanN
08-22-2010, 02:48 AM
either way, Ngata>the both of them.

fenikz
08-22-2010, 05:41 AM
Right, because all Willis does is tackle. Kurt Warner probably has a different opinion about that.

Willis has maybe touched Warner 2x in his career?

I'll say it til' the day I die Brooks is your best LB

Brent
08-22-2010, 07:05 AM
Spikes is the guy who makes sure everyone is in position and calls the plays for the Niners.
Dashon Goldson wears the green dot.

I'll say it til' the day I die Brooks is your best LB
Because he had one awesome game? He needs to show a lot more than that.

steelersfan43
08-22-2010, 07:23 AM
Linebacker is probably the last in the defensive pecking order. Even Ray Lewis, one of the greatest of all time, complained and whined like a little girl until they got him Haloti Ngata to take up blockers for him. ILB/MLB don't affect the passing game, which is big in today's NFL last time I checked, and they don't impact the run defense if their defensive tacklers aren't up to par. Darrelle Revis every day of the week.

Linebackers dont effect the Passing or running game huh? Sooo what do they do?????

EvilNixon
08-22-2010, 07:48 AM
I would take an elite pass rusher over either.

thenewfeature06
08-22-2010, 08:29 AM
Moss is the reason I started watching football, when I was 7 years old in 1998. He will always be my favorite player.

On subject, give me Revis.

You must spread some rep before giving it to prock again.

SuperMcGee
08-22-2010, 11:33 AM
I never said it was the most important thing, but you said they don't affect it.

Those teams have strong MLB play anyway, bad example.


Poz is oft-injured and quite average. The linebackers were, by far, the worst part of our defense last year. Injuries surely didn't help, but it was a bad scene.

Must be nice to have that top corner and a stud ILB like the Jets do (well, kind of). Oakland may, as well. I certainly hope they do.

Ness
08-22-2010, 11:37 AM
Willis has maybe touched Warner 2x in his career?

I'll say it til' the day I die Brooks is your best LB

Once was enough to make that impression on Warner I'm sure.

Brooks is our best linebacker. Yeah...right.

Babylon
08-22-2010, 12:03 PM
The conversation seems to be more about position rather than individuals. Someone convince me that Ray Lewis isnt as valuable as Joe cornerback because of the position he plays.

Michigan
08-22-2010, 01:33 PM
I would take an elite pass rusher over either.

Yup. Without a good D-line, all LB's and CB's are mediocre.

Shiver
08-22-2010, 01:47 PM
Linebackers dont effect the Passing or running game huh? Sooo what do they do?????


Exactly...


Their only job is to wrap up and tackle soundly. But they really don't do a lot of good if the D-Line doesn't do theirs first.

Shiver
08-22-2010, 01:49 PM
The conversation seems to be more about position rather than individuals. Someone convince me that Ray Lewis isnt as valuable as Joe cornerback because of the position he plays.


People thought Ray Lewis was done in 2004. He struggled mightily, he complained about not having big stud DTs in front of him, they drafted Haloti Ngata and he is still making plays to this day. But the fact remains, he needed Haloti Ngata to keep him playing at a high level.

MasterShake
08-22-2010, 02:00 PM
One more reason that Willis is a better option that Revis that I don't know if its been mentioned:

Willis has shown he can perform at an elite level year in and year out and will play for reasonable money. Revis has had one elite season so far AND he is holding out.

Based on that: Willis

Nalej
08-22-2010, 03:30 PM
I take Willis over Revis easily. If I'm building a team I'd want decent CBs and more elite players up front.
He's the leader of a D (making adjustments), a sure tackler and someone you can't run away from.
His 9 career sacks don't scare me because that's not what his job is. No one's running on him and he can protect the flats. He's a beast in the 34, my fav type of D.

Revis is bad ass, but as stated before, his front 7 is just as dangerous. Give the QB little time to throw and suddenly the CBs look amazing.
Not saying thats Revis' deal but it goes more to my first point, a great front 7 will make the secondary look good.

Willis...

Ness
08-22-2010, 03:51 PM
People thought Ray Lewis was done in 2004. He struggled mightily, he complained about not having big stud DTs in front of him, they drafted Haloti Ngata and he is still making plays to this day. But the fact remains, he needed Haloti Ngata to keep him playing at a high level.

Well it's a team sport. Revis wouldn't be that dominant if he was playing on a team such as Jacksonville with their front seven.

A Perfect Score
08-22-2010, 04:00 PM
Linebacker is probably the last in the defensive pecking order. Even Ray Lewis, one of the greatest of all time, complained and whined like a little girl until they got him Haloti Ngata to take up blockers for him. ILB/MLB don't affect the passing game, which is big in today's NFL last time I checked, and they don't impact the run defense if their defensive tacklers aren't up to par. Darrelle Revis every day of the week.

That was far into his career, after he had already established himself as a HoF player and one of the most dominant defensive presences in the history of the game. Attempting to undermine the importance of a dominant ILB by saying that he needs a DT to take up blocks for him is ignorant; a dominant CB is nothing without a good pass rush to prevent the QB from picking apart the secondary. Defense is a symbiotic system, and each level requires the other to work before they can be really effective. Yes, I can see how one can make the argument that middle of the road LBs can be effective in certain circumstances, but at the same time a truly dominant LB core can shut down both the pass and the run. I don't see why this argument should be such a wash...I think when it all comes down to it, its as some said...Revis is just a better player. Willis has holes in his game, whereas right now Revis doesn't.

dan77733
08-23-2010, 12:28 AM
And you don't need really good corners if your front seven is great.

Thats true, just look at the Vikings.

Obviously, as a 49ers fan, I picked Willis. Revis is overrated. I would take Asomugha who I think is the best cover corner and Asante Samuel who I think is the best playmaking corner before I take Revis and this is coming from someone who lives in NY and sees Revis every damn week.

A Perfect Score
08-23-2010, 12:41 AM
Did you really just mention Asante Samuel in the same sentence as Revis and Asamugha? Cause that is crazy talk. Samuel is an overrated trail corner who couldn't tackle to save his life. He has no business being in the discussion for best CB.

Hurricanes25
08-23-2010, 01:14 AM
Thats true, just look at the Vikings.

Obviously, as a 49ers fan, I picked Willis. Revis is overrated. I would take Asomugha who I think is the best cover corner and Asante Samuel who I think is the best playmaking corner before I take Revis and this is coming from someone who lives in NY and sees Revis every damn week.

If you want to take Willis, that's fine but please don't say Revis is overrated.

And Samuel blows. Woodson is the best playmaking corner in the league.

Shahin
08-23-2010, 01:44 AM
Anytime a player has one dominant year and people start proclaiming them the best at their position, they are overrated. I gotta see him replicate something similar to last season at least one more time for me to consider him the best corner in the NFL.

Hurricanes25
08-23-2010, 01:49 AM
Anytime a player has one dominant year and people start proclaiming them the best at their position, they are overrated. I gotta see him replicate something similar to last season at least one more time for me to consider him the best corner in the NFL.

Believe it or not, Revis had a pretty damn good year in 2008 (5 ints) and was solid as a rookie in 2007.

themaninblack
08-23-2010, 02:00 AM
Anytime a player has one dominant year and people start proclaiming them the best at their position, they are overrated. I gotta see him replicate something similar to last season at least one more time for me to consider him the best corner in the NFL.

This. I need to see at least one more good season from Revis before I declare him anything but a fluke. And I don't think CBs are as valuable as we make them out to be, especially now when the rules favor the offense in such a big way.

TitanHope
08-23-2010, 02:03 AM
Thats true, just look at the Vikings.

The Vikings have the best defensive line in the NFL, and Antione Winfield is a multiple Pro Bowler. Cedric Griffin isn't a slouch either.

Meanwhile, the Vikes's starting MLB E.J. Henderson has been injured all the time. The dude hasn't played an entire season since 2007. And while he's good, he doesn't rank as high on the MLB scale as Winfield does on the CB scale, so it's a faulty comparison.

Also, Ness, quit it with the "Front 7" stuff. PMD is right. You're grouping ILB's in with DE's, DT's, and pass-rushing OLB's - all more pivotal postions than ILB. That's like a ******* traffic cop arguing the legitimacy of his profession by saying, "Well, would you rather have us, homicide, SWAT, SVU, and the other department agencies? Cause we're pretty important."

DE, DT, and pass-rushing OLB's - these are the pivotal guys being talked about when people refer to the "front seven." Hell, LB's could be grouped into the "back seven" just as easily, but since pass-rushing OLB's are becoming more and more common, it's become the trendy phrase when grouping in the DE's, DT's, and 3-4 OLB's - it just so happens that ILB's have been taken along for the ride. It's a flawed argument to make when you're talking about individual players, let alone two specific ones.

And all this is to not demean the impact ILB's have on the game. It's not an insult to Patrick Willis. It's just that this has been argued multiple times and it's freakin' ********.

Shiver
08-23-2010, 02:46 AM
A great corner helps his pass rush. You can be freed to rush 6-7 guys and generate a pass rush if you have an elite, shutdown corner. If a MLB is stuck behind a bad D-Line, then he'll rack up a lot of tackles five yards down the field. I know, we had Keith Brooking make the "pro bowl" like five times.

Ness
08-23-2010, 02:53 AM
Also, Ness, quit it with the "Front 7" stuff. PMD is right.

I disagree.

jayceheathman
08-23-2010, 02:54 AM
Mainly because I look at things more then just on the field. I look at everything and not to mention he is the best ILB in the game, noone can really doubt that (Maybe if other ILBs were in their primes or non injury prone there would be a better case) but you can argue that Nnamdi is the top corner. And yes, CB is more important then ILB. But its also the fact that Willis will do everything right on and off the field. Not saying Revis hasnt, but I just would take Willis.

DeMeco Ryans says "hi."

Saints-Tigers
08-23-2010, 05:48 AM
DeMeco Ryans says "hi Patrick Willis, you are the best MLB"

Fixed.

Seriously, LBs are crucial in coverage as well and help the pass rush big time. Poor coverage LBs will kill their teams pass rush when QBs dump it off to a guy underneath for 7-8 yards or more every time he feels pressure.

Halsey
08-23-2010, 06:17 AM
Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

Were the 3 ints and 4 sacks he had last year official?

K Train
08-23-2010, 07:19 AM
im taking willis...hes been the best MLB in the league since he was a rookie and will be for 8 more years imo, revis has been in the discussion for the best CB after one year and in the past 5 years theres been multiple corners in contention for that #1 spot...its such a hard position to play id be somewhat surprised if revis ever duplicated his 2009 year

hes a hammer in the middle, can cover and blitz even though he isnt asked to do it that much. to me he could play all 4 spots in a 34. he has an incredible blend of size, speed and instincts

JETS5128
08-23-2010, 08:49 AM
This. I need to see at least one more good season from Revis before I declare him anything but a fluke. And I don't think CBs are as valuable as we make them out to be, especially now when the rules favor the offense in such a big way.

You obviously know very little about Darrelle Revis

Sniper
08-23-2010, 09:26 AM
Asante Samuel who I think is the best playmaking corner

http://thefreshxpress.com/freshxp/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/charles_woodson.jpg

What's up, dude?

before I take Revis

You would be the worst ******* GM ever. Asante Samuel is terrible.

bigbluedefense
08-23-2010, 11:21 AM
Revis.

And I LOVE P Willie, but it has to be Revis. There's only 2 legit shutdown CBs in the league. Having a shutdown CB does wonders for your defense.

While I love Willis and think he's the best ILB in the league, Revis is also the best CB in the league, and I'm taking a true shutdown CB over the best ILB 10 out of 10 times.

He just impacts a gameplan more.

Rosebud
08-23-2010, 12:07 PM
Fixed.

Seriously, LBs are crucial in coverage as well and help the pass rush big time. Poor coverage LBs will kill their teams pass rush when QBs dump it off to a guy underneath for 7-8 yards or more every time he feels pressure.

The Giants shut down the greatest offense in NFL history with Reggie Torbor, Antonio Pierce and Kawika Mitchell. That's 3 poor coverage LBs and Tom Brady couldn't do **** against them, why? Because the front 4 was beastly and the corners played really well, C-web in particular was playing great on Randy Moss.

abaddon41_80
08-23-2010, 12:54 PM
The Giants shut down the greatest offense in NFL history with Reggie Torbor, Antonio Pierce and Kawika Mitchell. That's 3 poor coverage LBs and Tom Brady couldn't do **** against them, why? Because the front 4 was beastly and the corners played really well, C-web in particular was playing great on Randy Moss.

The Giants defensive performance was all because of the front four. The linebackers played just as well as the defensive backs during that run.

Rosebud
08-23-2010, 12:58 PM
The Giants defensive performance was all because of the front four. The linebackers played just as well as the defensive backs during that run.

That's just not true, but then again I'm only a giants fan who's been following the team for 9 or 10 years. The DL was great, by far the best it had been this decade, but our corners vastly outplayed our linebackers that entire playoff run and that's why our D become such a force when it started the season abysmally. Our linebackers were mediocre while our CBs were quite good, Web in particular was exceptional.

SenorGato
08-23-2010, 12:59 PM
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2007/08/27/uN8rx8l7.jpg

killxswitch
08-23-2010, 01:09 PM
I'd rather have a domininate DLman than either of them, but if I had to choose I'd take Revis. I think it's easier to get an ILB who can give you close to what Willis offers than it is to get a CB other than Aso who can do what Revis does or anywhere near it.

JordanTaber
08-23-2010, 03:17 PM
Willis caught Chris Johnson in the open field.

When you see the plays this guy makes, it's pretty much a no-brainer he's going into the Hall of Fame one day, assuming he stays healthy. He has pretty much single-handedly transformed the 49ers' defense into one of the premier units in the league.

LOL @ "it's easy to get an ILB who gives you close to what Willis gives you." It's pretty obvious almost no one in this thread has really watched Willis play. Willis IS great in every aspect of the game.

As for Revis...when they really start calling him for all the holding he does, he could be in some trouble.

bigbluedefense
08-23-2010, 03:22 PM
Willis caught Chris Johnson in the open field.

When you see the plays this guy makes, it's pretty much a no-brainer he's going into the Hall of Fame one day, assuming he stays healthy. He has pretty much single-handedly transformed the 49ers' defense into one of the premier units in the league.

LOL @ "it's easy to get an ILB who gives you close to what Willis gives you." It's pretty obvious almost no one in this thread has really watched Willis play.

As for Revis...when they really start calling him for all the holding he does, he could be in some trouble.

No one is saying Willis is a scrub. But he will never impact a gameplan the way Revis does.

Willis is the best ILB in the game, but guys like David Harris, Curtis Lofton, Jon Beason, Stewart Bradley (if healthy), Jarod Mayo can give you similar production. They'll stuff the run, make plays sideline to sideline, and give you decent coverage underneath just like Willis.

An ILB is a glorified tackle machine.

Paranoidmoonduck
08-23-2010, 04:32 PM
I don't think any of the guys BBD listed go sideline-to-sideline nearly as well as Willis, but a few of them do a few things even better than Willis. Willis a special guy who's speed and tackling form and power make him one of the best guys in pursuit in the entire NFL (if not the best guy). He's dominant at coming downhill and he almost never misses a tackle.

That said, there's more to a linebacker than that I think there's a whole lot more value to a guy who's proven that you can throw at him 100+ times in a season and barely have any success against. It's more useful schematically and it's ultimately more valuable to the rest of the defense.

TitanHope
08-23-2010, 06:32 PM
Willis caught Chris Johnson in the open field.

I remember that play. My jaw dropped. It's the only time I've ever remembered CJ getting caught from behind (albeit, CJ was running full bore, but it was still impressive for a LB to do that).

Still didn't stop CJ from running for 135 yards, 5.4 YPC, and 2 TD's though. Just sayin'... ;)

The conversation seems to be more about position rather than individuals. Someone convince me that Ray Lewis isnt as valuable as Joe cornerback because of the position he plays.

While I agree that the conversation has taken a turn for "ILB vs CB," the question of Ray Lewis vs Joe Haden is an unfair one. In the case of Patrick Willis vs Darrelle Revis, you have the #1 ILB vs the #1 CB. The best of the best.

That's not the case when you're comparing a 1st ballot HoF'er like Lewis to a rookie who has never even seen pro action like Haden. Obviously the choice is Lewis because he's the superior player compared to the unknown you have in the rookie, but that has nothing to do with their positions so I'm missing your point. Plus, many who vote for Revis in this thing also think he's a superior player in addition to playing the more valuable position.

I think it'd be far more interesting to see if people's stances change when comparing other players who are ranked the same among their respective positions, like Jon Beason v. Nnamdi Asomugha, Ray Lewis v. Charles Woodson, etc.

A Perfect Score
08-23-2010, 06:35 PM
I'd take Ray Lewis over any CB who has been in the league during his tenure. Every single one. The effect he has on a defense is immeasurable.

V.I.P
08-23-2010, 06:36 PM
Revis FTW! Shutdown corner > pretty good LB.

K Train
08-23-2010, 06:40 PM
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2007/08/27/uN8rx8l7.jpg

if this was between willis, ngata and revis it wouldnt even be close to be

ngata <3333


revis is really good but im not convinced hes the best after one year. willis is however the best and will be for a while, theres not a comparison for his level of play as a MLB right now...i dont think in 2 years the same will be said for revis cause the "best" CB title changes holders every 2-3 years it seems, theres always someone new up and coming or a guy starting to get noticed more

A Perfect Score
08-23-2010, 06:43 PM
if this was between willis, ngata and revis it wouldnt even be close to be

ngata <3333


revis is really good but im not convinced hes the best after one year. willis is however the best and will be for a while, theres not a comparison for his level of play as a MLB right now...i dont think in 2 years the same will be said for revis cause the "best" CB title changes holders every 2-3 years it seems, theres always someone new up and coming or a guy starting to get noticed more

Ummm Jon Beason plays just as well as Willis does, albeit in a scheme that is more conducive to playmaking middle LBers.

TitanHope
08-23-2010, 06:59 PM
I'd take Ray Lewis over any CB who has been in the league during his tenure. Every single one. The effect he has on a defense is immeasurable.

Doth says the Raven...s fan. :D

A Perfect Score
08-23-2010, 08:31 PM
Doth says the Raven...s fan. :D

Well as a Ravens fan Ive seen the effect he has. Chris McAlister was one of the best cornerbacks of the last 10 years, and even during his prime he didnt have the same sort of influence on a game that Ray has. When Ray is on the field, the entire play goes through him. Its uncanny.

killxswitch
08-23-2010, 08:38 PM
Willis caught Chris Johnson in the open field.

When you see the plays this guy makes, it's pretty much a no-brainer he's going into the Hall of Fame one day, assuming he stays healthy. He has pretty much single-handedly transformed the 49ers' defense into one of the premier units in the league.

LOL @ "it's easy to get an ILB who gives you close to what Willis gives you." It's pretty obvious almost no one in this thread has really watched Willis play. Willis IS great in every aspect of the game.

As for Revis...when they really start calling him for all the holding he does, he could be in some trouble.

Homer post of the week!

TACKLE
08-23-2010, 09:11 PM
I think it'd be far more interesting to see if people's stances change when comparing other players who are ranked the same among their respective positions, like Jon Beason v. Nnamdi Asomugha, Ray Lewis v. Charles Woodson, etc.

Except that is a comparison between the #1 ILB and #1 CB.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-23-2010, 09:27 PM
Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

I hear his dad keeps track.

Saints-Tigers
08-23-2010, 10:22 PM
The Giants shut down the greatest offense in NFL history with Reggie Torbor, Antonio Pierce and Kawika Mitchell. That's 3 poor coverage LBs and Tom Brady couldn't do **** against them, why? Because the front 4 was beastly and the corners played really well, C-web in particular was playing great on Randy Moss.

That's cool and all, but most teams don't have 3 to 4 dominant pass rushers to rotate and play together.

Oh, and I'd easily take Ray Lewis over any CB, put Willis is no Ray Lewis either.

Shiver
08-24-2010, 12:13 AM
Would you take Ray Lewis over Deion Sanders? Yeah, didn't think so. (if not, 1994 49ers and 1995-6 Cowboys would like to speak with you.)

A Perfect Score
08-24-2010, 12:20 AM
Would you take Ray Lewis over Deion Sanders? Yeah, didn't think so. (if not, 1994 49ers and 1995-6 Cowboys would like to speak with you.)

See, I dont see why thats a ridiculous argument. How many Super Bowl MVP's does Sanders have? You bring up the fact that Sanders assisted in winning championships for those teams, but what do you think Lewis did for the Ravens? He was the centrepiece for the most dominant defense in NFL history, one that won a championship practically on its own merit. At least the defense Deion was playing on had an offense to compliment it. You make it seem like Sanders over Lewis is a clear cut argument, but to be honest, Im not sure its as simple as you make it out to be. They both had tremendous influences on the defenses they played for, but as influential and detrimental Sanders could be to an offense, Lewis was anywhere and everywhere during his prime. Run or pass didnt matter, and you cant say that with Sanders.

Shiver
08-24-2010, 12:25 AM
Lewis had two behemoths in front of him in 2000. When he didn't, he struggled and complained. I still remember the Chiefs pwning him in 2004. Then after 2005 he bitched and moaned all off-season until they got him Haloti Ngata to make his job easier. Had the Browns not stupidly traded with the Ravens, it is probable Ray Lewis would have retired. But he is still in the league, racking up tackles and pro-bowls. Which is fine, but he owes Haloti Ngata for extending his career and returning him to the center stage.

Saints-Tigers
08-24-2010, 12:26 AM
I would take Lewis over Sanders, unless it was a specialized situation, like playing against a team that runs only 2 wide outs and throws to a Randy Moss for the bulk of their offense.

Otherwise, I want the machine in the middle that dictates flow.

The defensive line helping linebackers thing is a bogus argument when using CBs anyway.

Shiver
08-24-2010, 12:28 AM
Wrong, Corners help the pass rush. Linebackers do not help the D-Line. (in a 4-3)

Saints-Tigers
08-24-2010, 12:31 AM
Sure they do, good linebackers can eliminate the dump offs and check down throws.

I've seen our pass rush look terrible because of linebackers that allow for easy check downs.

You're just wrong here, and are pretending that nothing matters in the passing game except the #1 receiver on the team.

Shiver
08-24-2010, 12:38 AM
Yeah, when you can cover the number 1 you can zero blitz (helps the pass rush), you can double the #2 WR or TE, and you can put eight in the box (helps the run game). The Bears were eaten alive in the Super Bowl by the Colts check-down game and they had Brian Urlacher and Lance Briggs!

Saints-Tigers
08-24-2010, 01:17 AM
When you can cover TE's and RB's, you can sit your safeties deep and eliminate the deep ball, and not ever have them come up and support the run.

People can't stop the Saints because our backs are awesome at getting open out of the backfield. We're almost always getting positive yards and no sacks, despite mediocre tackles because people flat out can't cover our TE's and RB's one on one.

It cuts both ways.

Shahin
08-24-2010, 02:32 AM
Believe it or not, Revis had a pretty damn good year in 2008 (5 ints) and was solid as a rookie in 2007.

yeah i've been watching Revis since his rookie year, but i've been watching Nnamdi be the best corner in the league since his 8-interception season in '06. unless Asomugha suddenly sucks this season, Revis is going to have to maintain his level of play for at least another season to be considered better than him in my book.




....but yeah i'd take Revis over Willis, although i'd honestly be just as happy with Willis.

nah, i'd take Willis.

A Perfect Score
08-24-2010, 12:34 PM
Wrong, Corners help the pass rush. Linebackers do not help the D-Line. (in a 4-3)

Are you honestly going to try and suggest that linebackers benefit from the D-line and Corners dont? Even the best corner ever will get dominated by a middle of the road receiver if the QB has enough time to throw the ball. Make no mistake, corners benefit just as much as linebackers from excellent defensive line play.

bigbluedefense
08-24-2010, 12:38 PM
Are you honestly going to try and suggest that linebackers benefit from the D-line and Corners dont? Even the best corner ever will get dominated by a middle of the road receiver if the QB has enough time to throw the ball. Make no mistake, corners benefit just as much as linebackers from excellent defensive line play.

It's actually a mutual benefit between CBs and linemen. A good CB can help linemen just as much as linemen help a CB.

If a CB can be left on an island, you can send more guys after the qb, which helps your pass rush, and you can load the box with more defenders, which helps your rush defense.

A dominant CB is just as valuable as a dominant pass rusher. Look at where the money goes, the cash doesn't lie. CBs can make just as much as pass rushers.

A Perfect Score
08-24-2010, 12:41 PM
It's actually a mutual benefit between CBs and linemen. A good CB can help linemen just as much as linemen help a CB.

If a CB can be left on an island, you can send more guys after the qb, which helps your pass rush, and you can load the box with more defenders, which helps your rush defense.

A dominant CB is just as valuable as a dominant pass rusher. Look at where the money goes, the cash doesn't lie. CBs can make just as much as pass rushers.

I wasn't trying to suggest any different. I understand that its a symbiotic relationship between the two...in fact, I said that exact same thing in an earlier post in this thread. Shiver was the one who was suggesting that it wasn't a two way relationship and that Linebackers, not Corners, are the ones who benefit from good defensive line play. But it does go both ways, with both groups of players.

Shiver
08-24-2010, 12:43 PM
Revis allowed the Jets to go zero coverage and blitz like crazy. The Jets' front-seven isn't really all that great and they have no elite pass rushers, but Revis afforded them the opportunity to go after the QB with almost reckless abandon. The benefits of having a great corner trickles down and helps the rest of the defense. One could argue that a dominant NT or 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB offer the same benefits, but not MLB.

If an Offensive Line can handle the NT and get a guard to the second level, even Ray Lewis is powerless to stop it. Hence my reference to the '04 Chiefs game against the Ravens. A Guard > any MLB every day.

A Linebackers job is to prevent big plays, make sure tackles, intimidate receivers in the middle of the field and make sure everyone is in the right gap. But they don't impact every other position like a NT, DE, CB do. A very good/great MLB can be on a terrible defense and not make a difference to no fault of his own; see, Jon Beason and Barrett Rudd last year.

bigbluedefense
08-24-2010, 12:47 PM
I wasn't trying to suggest any different. I understand that its a symbiotic relationship between the two...in fact, I said that exact same thing in an earlier post in this thread. Shiver was the one who was suggesting that it wasn't a two way relationship and that Linebackers, not Corners, are the ones who benefit from good defensive line play. But it does go both ways, with both groups of players.

Yeah, I agree that both benefit.

What I think he was trying to convey however (and I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth), is that a linebacker's relationship with the defensive line is more dependent than that of a CB.

While a CB relies on dline play as well, bc they can counter that dependence with significant help to the dline as well, it kind of balances out.

Whereas with a linebacker, without the dline he's dead in the water, and unlike a CB, he cannot provide as much help back to the dline to make their lives any easier.

A linebacker can technically help the pass rush, but not nearly as much as a CB (4-3 backers and 3-4 ILBs that is), and a great one can help stuff the run sure, but in theory, he's just a tackler who is filling a gap. He doesn't effect the Xs and Os the same way a shutdown CB can.

dan77733
08-28-2010, 06:02 PM
That's right.

I said Revis is OVERRATED. Period. People need to stop listening to ******* ESPN and believe every damn thing they say.

And yes, I said that Samuel is the BEST PLAYMAKING CB in the league. I never said he was the best tackler or cover guy. I know he's not but like I said, he's the BEST PLAYMAKING CB in the league. Samuel has 29 INT's in 62 games and after Ed Reed, is the best playmaker in the playoffs.

But hey, like I always say in the 49ers forum, to each his/her own.

Sniper
08-28-2010, 06:21 PM
i've been watching Nnamdi be the best corner in the league

So, Charles, tell me, how are things these days?

Hurricanes25
08-28-2010, 06:56 PM
That's right.

I said Revis is OVERRATED. Period. People need to stop listening to ******* ESPN and believe every damn thing they say.


Or you know, we can just watch Revis play and see him shut down every WR he played against last year. We don't need ESPN for that.

Shahin
08-28-2010, 11:08 PM
So, Charles, tell me, how are things these days?

no clue what you mean there, but i assume you are somehow bitching about my grammar or punctuation?

"i've been watching Nnamdi be the best corner in the league since his 8-interception season in '06."

TitanHope
08-28-2010, 11:13 PM
Preeeetty sure he's talking about Charles Woodson there.

Sniper
08-28-2010, 11:28 PM
Preeeetty sure he's talking about Charles Woodson there.

Smart TitanHope is smart.

Charles Woodson (Praised Be His Name) is such a studmuffin.

Shahin
08-29-2010, 03:34 AM
:/ harborside health center is my excuse for my brain fart earlier.