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Splat
08-21-2010, 01:36 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/21/vincent-jackson-marcus-mcneill-officially-hit-roster-exempt-list/

The North County Times reports Jackson and left tackle Marcus McNeill (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=3639) were officially placed on the roster exempt list (http://www.nctimes.com/sports/football/professional/nfl/chargers/article_8dd7312f-4897-51b4-b53f-e233966ecef9.html) on Friday night.

By rule, both players will now have to serve a three-game suspension after they sign.

Scott Bair writes that Jackson would have to serve this absence with his new team if he was traded. (We're working to confirm the particulars here, which seem odd.) Jackson was also suspended three games by the league for violating the substance abuse policy.

This has really turned in to a mess.

Edit: A Mod can merge this thread with the other Jackson thread I wasn't thinking. :(

umphrey
08-21-2010, 01:39 PM
It sounds like they are trying to get rid of Jackson anyway, allowing Seattle to talk to him. I don't know the details but why would they force a 3 game suspension on him and lower his trade value, when other teams are obviously interested? Whatever offer is on the table now is only getting worse with a suspension and the season getting closer.

NFL.com link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d819e67b4/article/chargers-allow-seahawks-to-discuss-deal-with-holdout-jackson?module=HP_headlines)

JHasley10
08-21-2010, 01:48 PM
Jackson is one DUI away from being suspended the whole nfl year.

the chargers dont wanna give him top 5 wr money. Mcneill i believe will get a long term deal

Splat
08-21-2010, 01:52 PM
It sounds like they are trying to get rid of Jackson anyway, allowing Seattle to talk to him. I don't know the details but why would they force a 3 game suspension on him and lower his trade value, when other teams are obviously interested? Whatever offer is on the table now is only getting worse with a suspension and the season getting closer.

NFL.com link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d819e67b4/article/chargers-allow-seahawks-to-discuss-deal-with-holdout-jackson?module=HP_headlines)

This would be 3 games on top of his 3 games for his DUI's.

umphrey
08-21-2010, 01:54 PM
Yeah 6 is twice as bad as 3 though...

Splat
08-21-2010, 01:57 PM
His trade value has dropped big time but at the same time I don't see him ever playing for SD again so...

JHasley10
08-21-2010, 01:57 PM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/aug/20/seahawks-have-talked-jackson/

haha he thinks he deserves brandon marshall money.

is he smoking the same stuff shawne merriman was smoking?

Splat
08-21-2010, 02:02 PM
Sources: Tra Thomas is planning to retire (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20100821_sources_tra_thomas_is_planning_to_retire)

He was not great or anything but SD depth at LT is paper thin.

JHasley10
08-21-2010, 02:04 PM
Sources: Tra Thomas is planning to retire (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20100821_sources_tra_thomas_is_planning_to_retire)

He was not great or anything but SD depth at LT is paper thin.
he was done last year with the jags.

didnt expect anything from him except a body INCASE of a injury.

hurts though from a depth standpoint

prock
08-21-2010, 08:18 PM
For ****'s sake, sign Jackson, he is on my fantasy team!

MetSox17
08-22-2010, 12:27 PM
I was thinking Vjax would be a sleeper on my money league that i draft in today, but no chance anymore after being done for 6 games.

bigbluedefense
08-22-2010, 12:32 PM
This is bad for both SD and VJax. They both benefit mutually from their relationship. Jax is perfect for that system and for Rivers, so SD benefits bc he's the perfect WR for Rivers, and Jax benefits bc he is perfect for that system and won't play as well in a different system.

Neither party benefits from a break up between the two.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2010, 12:51 PM
Congrats AJ Smith, you won another pissing contest. Your team is gonna suck. I hate this guy so much.

Splat
08-22-2010, 01:57 PM
This is bad for both SD and VJax. They both benefit mutually from their relationship. Jax is perfect for that system and for Rivers, so SD benefits bc he's the perfect WR for Rivers, and Jax benefits bc he is perfect for that system and won't play as well in a different system.

Neither party benefits from a break up between the two.

The rest of the AFC West benefits so I'm for it. :)

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 02:02 PM
This would be 3 games on top of his 3 games for his DUI's.

Actually, I think PFT later posted that if he signs by week 1, he can serve them concurrently or something like that.

Splat
08-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Well, if he signs before week 1 it won't be with SD that ship has sailed.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 02:04 PM
Right, but it won't hurt his trade value any more than it's already had done to it.

vidae
08-22-2010, 02:12 PM
Can't say I'm too upset that neither will be playing week 1 at Arrowhead on MNF. Nope, can't say I'd be upset at all.

:D

Shiver
08-22-2010, 02:20 PM
Jackson is a beneficiary of the scheme. I have a feeling Naane and Floyd do just fine and the Chargers laugh all the way to the bank.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 02:30 PM
Jackson is a beneficiary of the scheme. I have a feeling Naane and Floyd do just fine and the Chargers laugh all the way to the bank.

I said it after seeing Naane play the Bears last week that he's going to make people forget Jackson.

McNeil on the other hand is going to be sorely missed I feel....especially with their lack of depth.

Brodeur
08-22-2010, 03:11 PM
McNeil's been mediocre for 2 years, and could be easily replaced if the Chargers had any depth. People are seriously overrating McNeil and underrating Jackson in this whole ordeal.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 03:14 PM
McNeil's been mediocre for 2 years, and could be easily replaced if the Chargers had any depth. People are seriously overrating McNeil and underrating Jackson in this whole ordeal.

Well, they don't have any depth there and even someone mediocre would be nice to have.

And as for Jackson, he has great size and down the field ability and would make a good #1 for a lot of teams, but the Chargers don't need him to succeed as much as they need McNeil imo. If Jackson isn't there...no big deal, they have Gates and Floyd and I think Naane will step in and fill that hole just fine. But not having even a decent LT is going to hurt them.

Brodeur
08-22-2010, 03:32 PM
Without Jackson, their core goes from near elite to mediocre, as he was a large reason for Floyd's production last season when he began to command double teams.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 03:35 PM
I think that Jackson was always 2nd fiddle to Gates.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 03:38 PM
Well, they don't have any depth there and even someone mediocre would be nice to have.

And as for Jackson, he has great size and down the field ability and would make a good #1 for a lot of teams, but the Chargers don't need him to succeed as much as they need McNeil imo. If Jackson isn't there...no big deal, they have Gates and Floyd and I think Naane will step in and fill that hole just fine. But not having even a decent LT is going to hurt them.
Actually McNeill's replacement, Brandyn Dombrowski, has looked pretty good so far. He's actually a better run blocker than McNeill at this time, and has looked good in pass protection. The latter is the biggest concern, but he's done alright going up against Peppers and Ware. The biggest issue is depth at now at that tackle position with Tra retiring so if we have injuries like we did last year on the oline, then it's going to be bad.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 03:40 PM
Without Jackson, their core goes from near elite to mediocre, as he was a large reason for Floyd's production last season when he began to command double teams.
That's not entirely true since Floyd didn't get into the starting lineup until Chambers was released. It's actually Gates who benefited from Jackson's double team and vice versa.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 03:58 PM
Actually McNeill's replacement, Brandyn Dombrowski, has looked pretty good so far. He's actually a better run blocker than McNeill at this time, and has looked good in pass protection. The latter is the biggest concern, but he's done alright going up against Peppers and Ware. The biggest issue is depth at now at that tackle position with Tra retiring so if we have injuries like we did last year on the oline, then it's going to be bad.

Dombrowski had been injured too for a while I thought. They had 3rd string guards filling in at LT for a bit in camp iirc.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 03:59 PM
Congrats AJ Smith, you won another pissing contest. Your team is gonna suck. I hate this guy so much.

Dude, VJ and his agent wants 30 million guaranteed. Even Seattle balk at that offer.

Oh and on a sidenote, Jackson's agent is the same as Revis's.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 04:03 PM
Dombrowski had been injured too for a while I thought. They had 3rd string guards filling in at LT for a bit in camp iirc.
No. Domb has the usual nicks and wear of training camp, but no serious injury. With the way things are, Tyronne Green (the third string guard that you mentioned) is the one who has been filling in at every position on the line. In fact, a lot of the depth players are moving around. Domb's primary position is left tackle, but he has also slided over to RT and allowed Green duties at left tackle as well just to get experience there.

I'm actually high on Green as well. The guy has such long arms that he can play the left tackle position despite his smaller stature. He's actually the reason why Tra Thomas decided to retire.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2010, 04:12 PM
Dude, VJ and his agent wants 30 million guaranteed. Even Seattle balk at that offer.

Oh and on a sidenote, Jackson's agent is the same as Revis's.

Regardless...AJ is a huge douche and extremely difficult to work with.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 04:12 PM
Honestly, I don't know how we will do this year if both VJ and McNeill are gone. VJ's lost could be offset by having Matthews there and running the ball more effectively unlike last year with LT. Additionally, we'll probably involve more of the other tight ends not named Gates, specifically McMichael. I just feel that if Brees can survive without a true number 1 at wideout, that Rivers will be okay as well since he loves to spread the ball around a lot as well.

Of course, it could turn out to be like the Merriman situation 2008 all over again for us. I just think we're slightly more prepared this time. But who knows.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 04:17 PM
Regardless...AJ is a huge douche and extremely difficult to work with.
He comes off douchey but it still doesn't change the fact that he's extremely successful at what he does just like the other good GMs in other franchises like the Colts, Patriots, and the Steelers. AJ just has the same problems that every good GM in the league is going to run into with contract negotiations when dealing with certain players. Most of the time, around 95%, I would wager, everything goes smooth, but you're going to run into difficulty now and then.

And I would wager that Rivers and Gates would differ with you on AJ being difficult to work with. Gates, in particular, learned his lesson from 2005 and found the right way to get a contract extension with the team. Unfortunately, VJ and McNeill didn't follow suit.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 04:17 PM
I still don't think Jackson is going to be all that missed. You were going to be without him the first 3 games regardless, and I think with an elite QB, you'll be fine with Gates, Floyd and Naane. Plus more effort to run the ball wouldn't hurt.

Brodeur
08-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Honestly, I don't know how we will do this year if both VJ and McNeill are gone. VJ's lost could be offset by having Matthews there and running the ball more effectively unlike last year with LT. Additionally, we'll probably involve more of the other tight ends not named Gates, specifically McMichael. I just feel that if Brees can survive without a true number 1 at wideout, that Rivers will be okay as well since he loves to spread the ball around a lot as well.

Of course, it could turn out to be like the Merriman situation 2008 all over again for us. I just think we're slightly more prepared this time. But who knows.

The Saints offensive line is much much better than the Chargers, although I do agree that the run game can be more effective without McNeil because he is a lousy run blocker.

rockio42
08-22-2010, 04:25 PM
Ugh! This is the part of pro sports that makes me wish I liked College better. It's absolute ********, I understand that fact that these players money-making careers are only so long and they are trying to lock up their lives and their families lives with these contracts but in the end they are screwing themselves over. Sitting out half a season of a possibly only 10-year career could be the difference between being set for life and getting screwed over any way and I just don't understand why Jackson (because it seems that McNeil will sign) would put an entire season of his career in jeopardy like this and possibly screw over a team that had Super Bowl aspirations. This kind of ******** is what will **** a teams chemistry and completely screw over any chance the Chargers have because even if McNeil signs and they lose Jackson I can't see them pulling together the same way as say the Giants with Strahan did when they made a run....this kind of super star ******** (and don't get me started on ******* Darrelle Revis) will always piss me off.

Xenos
08-22-2010, 04:49 PM
The Saints offensive line is much much better than the Chargers, although I do agree that the run game can be more effective without McNeil because he is a lousy run blocker.
With the exception of one second rounder on the line, I think the Saints lines were all low round pick as well similar to the Chargers. I'm saying they're not talented, but I think you can't knock out down just because of an aging running back last year. Especially when our oline had so many injuries last year. We never had a consistent oline compared to the Saints. Someone would get injured and have to be replaced. And just when the line starts to gel, another injury happens and ruins the chemistry again.

Saints-Tigers
08-22-2010, 05:19 PM
Evans and Nicks is probably the best guard tandem in the league, both are top 5 IMO.

How is Colston not a true number 1 receiver BTW? I hear that a lot around here.

Brodeur
08-22-2010, 05:32 PM
.

How is Colston not a true number 1 receiver BTW? I hear that a lot around here.

It's the ears.

Splat
08-22-2010, 07:01 PM
I still don't think Jackson is going to be all that missed. You were going to be without him the first 3 games regardless, and I think with an elite QB, you'll be fine with Gates, Floyd and Naane. Plus more effort to run the ball wouldn't hurt.

Agreed.

He will me missed but not greatly that said they need to lock up McNeill ASAP, I agree with Brodeur that his play has dropped off but he is still their best LT and they have no depth.

San Diego Chicken
08-22-2010, 07:11 PM
I'm not too worried about the Charger offense because they've been shuffling players in and out every season since 2004, but have still remained in the top 5 in scoring every year. Rivers' passing numbers may decline a bit, but you take that if the running game is more efficient.

Defense is what I'm worried about. There are holes in the secondary and our pass-rushing OLB's need to pass rush.

Remember A.J. Smith comes from the Bill Polian school of GM's. Indy is very careful with their money, paying only the true franchise cornerstones, and trusting their scouting and player development above anything else. He definitely has the reputation of a hard-ass but he is really no different from Polian.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 07:14 PM
He definitely has the reputation of a hard-ass but he is really no different from Polian.

But he is different. I've never heard of Smith shoving staff members from opposing teams up against the wall or pumping in crowd noise or pushing for rule changes to directly benefit his own team ;)

San Diego Chicken
08-22-2010, 07:30 PM
But he is different. I've never heard of Smith shoving staff members from opposing teams up against the wall or pumping in crowd noise or pushing for rule changes to directly benefit his own team ;)

Okay, they're both hard-asses, heh.

Saints-Tigers
08-22-2010, 07:50 PM
In all the hooplah of the Chargers this season, I almost entirely forgot about Darren Sproles for some reason.

Forenci
08-22-2010, 08:16 PM
He comes off douchey but it still doesn't change the fact that he's extremely successful at what he does just like the other good GMs in other franchises like the Colts, Patriots, and the Steelers. AJ just has the same problems that every good GM in the league is going to run into with contract negotiations when dealing with certain players. Most of the time, around 95%, I would wager, everything goes smooth, but you're going to run into difficulty now and then.

And I would wager that Rivers and Gates would differ with you on AJ being difficult to work with. Gates, in particular, learned his lesson from 2005 and found the right way to get a contract extension with the team. Unfortunately, VJ and McNeill didn't follow suit.

How successful has he really been, though? He has yet to get a team to the Super Bowl, much less win it. I'm not saying he isn't a good GM but I think people consider him amongst the elite, which I really don't feel like he is.

They've made fairly deep runs in the playoffs and won the division consistently but in a pretty bad/mediocre division for quite some time now.

I just think he's ass, personally. An ass who's good at his job, but lets his personal feelings and ego get in the way of doing that job. That's just my opinion though, and I could be completely off base.

21ST
08-22-2010, 09:40 PM
Ugh! This is the part of pro sports that makes me wish I liked College better. It's absolute ********, I understand that fact that these players money-making careers are only so long and they are trying to lock up their lives and their families lives with these contracts but in the end they are screwing themselves over. Sitting out half a season of a possibly only 10-year career could be the difference between being set for life and getting screwed over any way and I just don't understand why Jackson (because it seems that McNeil will sign) would put an entire season of his career in jeopardy like this and possibly screw over a team that had Super Bowl aspirations. This kind of ******** is what will **** a teams chemistry and completely screw over any chance the Chargers have because even if McNeil signs and they lose Jackson I can't see them pulling together the same way as say the Giants with Strahan did when they made a run....this kind of super star ******** (and don't get me started on ******* Darrelle Revis) will always piss me off.

Because if the CBA problem was fixed they would be FA's so it is basically time for them to get the big money, waiting is over.

bantx
08-22-2010, 10:13 PM
Buster Davis will get a chance to see the field this year, hopefully he finally has a break out season? lol it'd be nice to see it happen though.

descendency
08-22-2010, 10:18 PM
No offense, but McNeill isn't good enough for a long term deal and Jackson is a huge risk (he could be gone for the year easily). The Chargers are screwing this up but they were smart to stay away from giving either a big guaranteed deal.

AJ is still an idiot though, because he's f***ing the Patriots hopes for a top 5 pick from the Raiders :(

edit: In contrast, Mankins is an elite (or at least very good) Guard and isn't a problem off the field. He just wants more than he's worth. All 3 should be FAs though. [I wish the Patriots would just trade Mankins for a 1st or 2nd round pick]

bantx
08-22-2010, 10:23 PM
In AJ We Trust.

He's a smart man and a draft guru, I'll let him work his magic on this.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 10:48 PM
edit: In contrast, Mankins is an elite (or at least very good) Guard and isn't a problem off the field. He just wants more than he's worth. All 3 should be FAs though. [I wish the Patriots would just trade Mankins for a 1st or 2nd round pick]

If I were the GM of the Bears I'd hand over our first for Mankins. Honestly, Mankins at LG and only playing 4 lineman would be better than what we currently have with Garza and Lance Louis starting. I don't even think I'm exaggerating all that much either.

yourfavestoner
08-22-2010, 11:24 PM
]No offense, but McNeill isn't good enough for a long term deal[/b] and Jackson is a huge risk (he could be gone for the year easily). The Chargers are screwing this up but they were smart to stay away from giving either a big guaranteed deal.

AJ is still an idiot though, because he's f***ing the Patriots hopes for a top 5 pick from the Raiders :(

edit: In contrast, Mankins is an elite (or at least very good) Guard and isn't a problem off the field. He just wants more than he's worth. All 3 should be FAs though. [I wish the Patriots would just trade Mankins for a 1st or 2nd round pick]

That's the big kicker here. McNeil had a lights out rookie season but has steadily regressed since. Why give a long-term deal (that's probably going to put him in the top 5 highest paid tackles in the league) to a player that has been getting worse every year?

Xenos
08-22-2010, 11:28 PM
How successful has he really been, though? He has yet to get a team to the Super Bowl, much less win it. I'm not saying he isn't a good GM but I think people consider him amongst the elite, which I really don't feel like he is.

They've made fairly deep runs in the playoffs and won the division consistently but in a pretty bad/mediocre division for quite some time now.

I just think he's ass, personally. An ass who's good at his job, but lets his personal feelings and ego get in the way of doing that job. That's just my opinion though, and I could be completely off base.
His job is to gather talent on the team. Everything after that is coaching and luck. His mentor Polian has more experience as a GM than him, and yet has only won one Superbowl.

The truth of the matter is that he's very much a huge factor in our most successful era as a franchise compared to Coryell or even the Beathard era where we actually did make the Superbowl.

RaiderNation
08-22-2010, 11:32 PM
Get Jackson out of the AFC west and I will be real happy. Gets rid of the Chargers best WR. Just got to stop Gates

Scotty D
08-22-2010, 11:50 PM
I don't understand why he doesn't sign Vincent Jackson. I can see why they wouldn't want to extend McNeil. It seems like a good GM would have seen this coming and handled it better. If Jackson and McNeil weren't part of the long term plan then he should have dealt them before the draft. Teams generally know if contract problems are coming. I think Smith has sat on these guys and lost trade value. It seems to me that he is passing on improving the Chargers to play personal games.

BeerBaron
08-22-2010, 11:53 PM
I don't understand why he doesn't sign Vincent Jackson. I can see why they wouldn't want to extend McNeil. It seems like a good GM would have seen this coming and handled it better. If Jackson and McNeil weren't part of the long term plan then he should have dealt them before the draft. Teams generally know if contract problems are coming. I think Smith has sat on these guys and lost trade value. It seems to me that he is passing on improving the Chargers to play personal games.

Jackson is one more offense away from a possible year long suspension and he wants a lot more money than he is worth.

Scotty D
08-23-2010, 12:00 AM
Jackson is one more offense away from a possible year long suspension and he wants a lot more money than he is worth.

If he gets suspended can't they go after his signing bonus? If they know his history can't they put a clause in his contract that deals with off the field incidents? I'm not sure what is allowed.

Why are they only allowing the Seahawks to talk to him? Doesn't that seem like they don't want him to find a trade partner?

BeerBaron
08-23-2010, 12:09 AM
If he gets suspended can't they go after his signing bonus? If they know his history can't they put a clause in his contract that deals with off the field incidents? I'm not sure what is allowed.

Why are they only allowing the Seahawks to talk to him? Doesn't that seem like they don't want him to find a trade partner?

It's possible that they could write something like that in. I know there are restrictions on going after a guys signing bonus though...I've read all kinds of things on both sides of the argument so I'm not actually sure what's allowed and what isn't.

They also probably want him out of the conference, and perhaps the Seahawks are the only NFC to inquire.

Xenos
08-23-2010, 12:19 AM
I don't understand why he doesn't sign Vincent Jackson. I can see why they wouldn't want to extend McNeil. It seems like a good GM would have seen this coming and handled it better. If Jackson and McNeil weren't part of the long term plan then he should have dealt them before the draft. Teams generally know if contract problems are coming. I think Smith has sat on these guys and lost trade value. It seems to me that he is passing on improving the Chargers to play personal games.

From what I hear they did try to negotiate a new contract with him before, but then he got his second DUI and negotiations stopped. And then he had the suspended license issue before the Jets game. And even after all that, I think they would have tried to work something out if he had signed his original tender like the 200 other RFA (Miles Austin comes to mind). Of course, that was before I learned that he wanted to be the highest paid wide receiver in the NFL.

Really, you can't really blame Smith if he can't negotiate that much for someone like VJ. Especially since he's not the one the offense runs through. That honor belongs to both Rivers and Gates. Hopefully Mathews becomes one of them in the future as well.

Vox Populi
08-23-2010, 07:20 AM
His job is to gather talent on the team. Everything after that is coaching and luck. His mentor Polian has more experience as a GM than him, and yet has only won one Superbowl.

The truth of the matter is that he's very much a huge factor in our most successful era as a franchise compared to Coryell or even the Beathard era where we actually did make the Superbowl.

To be fair, Polians had what, 6+ teams get there as a GM?

Xenos
08-23-2010, 07:06 PM
To be fair, Polians had what, 6+ teams get there as a GM?

What is it, four with the Bills and two with the Colts?

d34ng3l021
08-24-2010, 05:43 PM
Word on the street has it that Atlanta has gotten permission to talk to Vincent Jackson. With the injuries to rookie WR Kerry Meier and veteran WR Michael Jenkins (along with Harry Douglas coming off of an ACL tear), "Coach Mike Smith [has] said there's a possibility the Falcons sign another wide receiver after the 53-man roster is established and Meier goes on IR." -Falcons RapidReports.

I don't know how they do it if VJ wants 9 million dollars a year, especially with so much money tied into Roddy. But the thought of that offense has me wet.

Draft King
08-24-2010, 07:40 PM
I still don't see this happening (I wish), but if it did what would the Falcons have to give up for him. Brandon Marshall racked in two 2nds, Santonio Holmes brought in a 5th, I think for V Jax it would have to be either a 2nd, or maybe two 3rds. I doubt the latter because it seems like too little, but Jackson won't even be allowed to be 4 or 6 games this year due to suspension (can't remember the exact amount). I know Vincent Jackson and Roddy White have the same agent which could help out a little.

CC.SD
08-24-2010, 07:48 PM
He won't be traded...he will sit the time and come in when he comes in. Hopefully he'll do some damage in the playoffs.

Although this whole situation has me pondering what the Chargers' draft next year could look like. They already have a probable but conditional 2nd from NYJ and a 3rd from Seattle. I don't see VJ getting shipped out for less than a 2nd. Could be quite a haul.

d34ng3l021
08-25-2010, 02:52 AM
He won't be traded...he will sit the time and come in when he comes in. Hopefully he'll do some damage in the playoffs.

Although this whole situation has me pondering what the Chargers' draft next year could look like. They already have a probable but conditional 2nd from NYJ and a 3rd from Seattle. I don't see VJ getting shipped out for less than a 2nd. Could be quite a haul.

Pretty adamant on your stance there. You think all these trade talks are bs? Hopefully he signs before Setember 3rd for the people, like me, who have him in fantasy. Him coming to the Falcons is pretty implausible, but there must be a reason why we are talking to him.

CC.SD
08-25-2010, 12:53 PM
Pretty adamant on your stance there. You think all these trade talks are bs? Hopefully he signs before Setember 3rd for the people, like me, who have him in fantasy. Him coming to the Falcons is pretty implausible, but there must be a reason why we are talking to him.

Well he is not backing down from the 30 mill guaranteed/50 mill contract...and he has two DUIs, and the last time the NFL world saw him he was getting arrested on the day of the playoff game for driving without a license, to the freaking stadium. Show me the team that is giving V-Jack the superstar contract and giving up picks right now.

It's a bad holdout. My thinking is he either comes in or he sits.

bigbluedefense
08-25-2010, 01:54 PM
People are overrating McNeil and underrating Jackson. Jackson is the more important player to keep from a skill standpoint.

To be honest, the Left Tackle position as a whole has become overrated in the NFL.

I know that sounds like blasphemy, but if you really think about it, it's true.

TACKLE
08-25-2010, 02:04 PM
People are overrating McNeil and underrating Jackson. Jackson is the more important player to keep from a skill standpoint.

To be honest, the Left Tackle position as a whole has become overrated in the NFL.

I know that sounds like blasphemy, but if you really think about it, it's true.

And on the same note, Right Tackles have become undervalued by fans/media. Though recently it seems that NFL teams much more comfortable with spending high draft picks on RT's. I think it may have to do with the spread of the 3-4. Now you have athletic pass rushers on both sides opposed to in an old school 4-3 where you'd have your pass rusher at RE and your 280lb run stuffer at LE.

SenorGato
08-25-2010, 02:23 PM
I don't think either player is so key to the Chargers' future...McNeill is an OL with back problems at an early age and Jackson is scary good because Rivers is scary good (plus Jackson's really tall).

Splat
08-25-2010, 02:26 PM
People are overrating McNeil and underrating Jackson. Jackson is the more important player to keep from a skill standpoint.

Rivers is good enough at spreading the ball around and has enough weapons to get by with out Jackson but he has to be standing up right to do it.

killxswitch
08-25-2010, 02:52 PM
And on the same note, Right Tackles have become undervalued by fans/media. Though recently it seems that NFL teams much more comfortable with spending high draft picks on RT's. I think it may have to do with the spread of the 3-4. Now you have athletic pass rushers on both sides opposed to in an old school 4-3 where you'd have your pass rusher at RE and your 280lb run stuffer at LE.

The right end is still probably going to be the premier pass rusher and the left tackle the most athletic pass blocker, only because it is most QB's blind side. But I agree, even 4-3 teams are putting two pass rushers on the ends these days.

Colts - Freeney and Mathis
Eagles - Cole and Graham
Vikings - Allen and Edwards
Texans - Williams and Smith (kind of)
Giants - Tuck and Umenoria, or JPP, or Kiwi

etc.

Splat
08-27-2010, 05:22 PM
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/09000d5d81a0ea01/article/jackson-would-like-to-be-a-charger-but-he-wants-fair-pay?module=HP_headlines

NFL Network insider Jason La Canfora sat down for an exclusive interview with Vincent Jackson (http://www.nfl.com/players/vincentjackson/profile?id=JAC627460), who's training in Arizona while holding out from the San Diego Chargers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/sandiegochargers/profile?team=SD) over his contract situation. The interview will air Friday on NFL Network's "NFL Total Access," which starts at 7 p.m. ET.

If you click the link you can watch part of the interview.

Shiver
08-27-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't think either player is so key to the Chargers' future...McNeill is an OL with back problems at an early age and Jackson is scary good because Rivers is scary good (plus Jackson's really tall).


I bet Naanae and Floyd play really, really well.

CC.SD
08-27-2010, 05:50 PM
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/09000d5d81a0ea01/article/jackson-would-like-to-be-a-charger-but-he-wants-fair-pay?module=HP_headlines



If you click the link you can watch part of the interview.

Sigh, more drama. I hope they don't just lob him a bunch of softballs, there are some questions about this situation that make even VJ's biggest fans (myself) question this holdout. I mean...stop getting DUIs.

Splat
08-27-2010, 06:05 PM
Sigh, more drama. I hope they don't just lob him a bunch of softballs, there are some questions about this situation that make even VJ's biggest fans (myself) question this holdout. I mean...stop getting DUIs.

This really is a the sticking point, if not for this I think he would all ready have a long term deal with SD or been traded.

I can see SD's fear of locking him up long term as well as a teams fear of giving up the moon for him in a trade/money the risk is to much.

BeerBaron
08-27-2010, 06:06 PM
Even without the DUI's, I'm not sure he's worth Brandon Marshall money, which last I heard, is what he's aiming for. That or even better. He isn't worth that.

FuzzyGopher
08-27-2010, 06:16 PM
They would just put a clause in the contract that says if he gets another DUI the contract gets voided if that's what they were worried about. He is just asking for too much money.

CC.SD
08-27-2010, 06:30 PM
Even without the DUI's, I'm not sure he's worth Brandon Marshall money, which last I heard, is what he's aiming for. That or even better. He isn't worth that.

In a non-alcoholic vacuum I wouldn't hesitate taking VJ over Marshall. But that's not reality. He's already going to be serving a 3 game suspension this season and is one incident away from the full season. This holdout is so unnecessary and I'm bitter about it.

PACKmanN
08-27-2010, 09:03 PM
In a non-alcoholic vacuum I wouldn't hesitate taking VJ over Marshall. But that's not reality. He's already going to be serving a 3 game suspension this season and is one incident away from the full season. This holdout is so unnecessary and I'm bitter about it.

you're being a homer, Marshall has done more, with less around him, and has been doing it longer than a year. Plus Marshall can do many things well, other than run deep and out jump the defender which really is what VJ is

CC.SD
08-27-2010, 11:55 PM
you're being a homer, Marshall has done more, with less around him, and has been doing it longer than a year. Plus Marshall can do many things well, other than run deep and out jump the defender which really is what VJ is

Don't call me a homer, I have legit reasons to make that call. I think Marshall has benefited hugely from being targeted a million times a game and his deep game is a joke compared to VJ, who can box out at a level that's extremely comparable to BM.

Jackson's spent his career opposite Gates and a million other options, so the #s are in Marshall's favor but talent wise, I'd easily choose VJ.

Splat
09-02-2010, 01:03 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/02/the-cost-of-vincent-jackson/

Michael Silver of Yahoo! Sports reports that Chargers G.M. A.J. Smith has asked (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-jacksonvikings090110) for a second-round pick in 2011 and a third-round pick in 2012 in exchange for Jackson.

Combine those draft picks and Jackson's disputed asking price (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/28/vincent-jacksons-agent-denies-report-of-five-year-50-million-demand/) on a new contract, and you can understand why there hasn't been a trade.

CC.SD
09-02-2010, 01:06 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/02/the-cost-of-vincent-jackson/

Yes for the price of Charlie Whitehurst you too can have a pro bowl wideout.

:D yah it's not the exact terms but doesn't sound a disproportionately high price to me. The cost of resigning him though...

Splat
09-02-2010, 01:08 PM
If it wasn't for the off field trouble I think the price would be higher, but if it wasn't for the off field trouble I think SD would have all ready locked him up so...

killxswitch
09-02-2010, 01:15 PM
I don't think a 2nd one year and a 3rd the next is that bad. The 5 year $50 million demand is pretty vague unless I missed something, how much of that does he want guaranteed?

JHasley10
09-03-2010, 03:48 PM
I don't think a 2nd one year and a 3rd the next is that bad. The 5 year $50 million demand is pretty vague unless I missed something, how much of that does he want guaranteed?

he wants 30 million guaranteed so. that puts a damper on everything. wants to be a top 3 paid wr in the nfl ???

the guy needs to ask for a personal driver instead of 30 mill guaranteed cash.

Shiver
09-03-2010, 04:00 PM
The Chargers trading for Crayton tells me everything I need to know. Don't expect to see Vincent Jackson wearing Powder Blues every again.

bigbluedefense
09-03-2010, 04:01 PM
I was hoping they'd trade Jackson and not trade for Crayton. I have Malcolm Floyd on my ff team. I hope Crayton doesn't steal points from him.

Shiver
09-03-2010, 04:03 PM
It's more of an indictment of "Bust-er" Davis as their slot receiver I think.

bigbluedefense
09-03-2010, 04:08 PM
He's still on the team?

More options for Rivers means less touches for Floyd. Boo. I hate you AJ Smith, you arrogant unaccomplished douchebag.

CC.SD
09-03-2010, 04:09 PM
The Chargers trading for Crayton tells me everything I need to know. Don't expect to see Vincent Jackson wearing Powder Blues every again.


sadly, not news.


He's still on the team?

More options for Rivers means less touches for Floyd. Boo. I hate you AJ Smith, you arrogant unaccomplished douchebag.

lol I don't think you have to worry about Buster Davis. He put up 4 catches for 82 yards yesterday so basically he's done for the year.

bigbluedefense
09-03-2010, 04:11 PM
sadly, not news.




lol I don't think you have to worry about Buster Davis. He put up 4 catches for 82 yards yesterday so basically he's done for the year.

Crayton will steal touches from Floyd though. That hurts my team.

I was banking on Floyd being a sleeper. Now I gotta hope Berrian, Rice, McCluster, or MoMas step up as a sleeper for me.

yourfavestoner
09-03-2010, 04:12 PM
I'm telling you guys, Ewing Theory cancels out everything else with the Chargers.

It is Tiki w/the Giants all over again.

CC.SD
09-03-2010, 04:14 PM
Crayton will steal touches from Floyd though. That hurts my team.

I was banking on Floyd being a sleeper. Now I gotta hope Berrian, Rice, McCluster, or MoMas step up as a sleeper for me.

Crayton won't start over Floyd or Naanee though.

bigbluedefense
09-03-2010, 04:14 PM
I'm telling you guys, Ewing Theory cancels out everything else with the Chargers.

It is Tiki w/the Giants all over again.

I think Shawne Merriman is the key to the Chargers season. If he bounces back, they're a legit SB favorite in my eyes. Without him, they still have a mediocre pass rush.

bigbluedefense
09-03-2010, 04:15 PM
Crayton won't start over Floyd or Naanee though.

Won't have to. He'll play slot in 3rd and long, and he'll get his touches.

CC.SD
09-03-2010, 04:16 PM
Won't have to. He'll play slot in 3rd and long, and he'll get his touches.

yah but none of the bombs that Floyd would be catching. Norv shifts the RB out to the slot a lot too, along with Gates. It's a surprisingly unproductive position in this offense.

Brodeur
09-03-2010, 04:18 PM
I'm telling you guys, Ewing Theory cancels out everything else with the Chargers.

It is Tiki w/the Giants all over again.

The Ewing Theory is also ********.

bigbluedefense
09-03-2010, 04:19 PM
yah but none of the bombs that Floyd would be catching. Norv shifts the RB out to the slot a lot too, along with Gates. It's a surprisingly unproductive position in this offense.

Im hoping Floyd gets that single coverage. I know Rivers loves to throw it up there when he sees single coverage with those mountains on the outside.

Hopefully Floyd plays the role of Vincent Jackson this year. I know he won't be a Vincent Jackson, but if he can give me like 800 yards and 8 tds, I'll be satisfied.

CC.SD
09-03-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm telling you guys, Ewing Theory cancels out everything else with the Chargers.

It is Tiki w/the Giants all over again.

The only reason I think this is even remotely discussable is because these stupid Bolts are really emotional and I guarantee Ladainian talks **** about them during the year.

Im hoping Floyd gets that single coverage. I know Rivers loves to throw it up there when he sees single coverage with those mountains on the outside.

Hopefully Floyd plays the role of Vincent Jackson this year. I know he won't be a Vincent Jackson, but if he can give me like 800 yards and 8 tds, I'll be satisfied.


He got the 800 last year and only started about 8 games (chris chambers). He's going to put up terrific numbers this year if he's healthy.

gpngc
09-03-2010, 05:06 PM
I think the Seahawks are negotiating hard right now, both with the Chargers and the Jackson camp...

Splat
09-03-2010, 06:50 PM
I would not be shocked at all to see Floyd have a pretty big year.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 01:02 PM
Bump for a trade deadline . . .

4pm EST for VJax to have a 4 game suspension.

Anybody think it'll happen?

BeerBaron
09-22-2010, 01:08 PM
Bump for a trade deadline . . .

4pm EST for VJax to have a 4 game suspension.

Anybody think it'll happen?

Vikings are supposedly close. Per PFT, San Diego wants a 2nd and a 3rd, Minnesota is offering a 2nd and a conditional future pick based on whether they resign him long term or not.

Splat
09-22-2010, 01:10 PM
2nd and a 4th will get it done.

Nalej
09-22-2010, 01:23 PM
Get it done! My WRs suck on FF and i have him stashed on my bench

bantx
09-22-2010, 01:27 PM
at the rate minny is playing right now, the 2nd and 3rd looks quite nice.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 01:40 PM
Bump for a trade deadline . . .

4pm EST for VJax to have a 4 game suspension.

Anybody think it'll happen?

I don't think it gets done. i guess we find out in an hour and change.

SuperMcGee
09-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Make it happen. Things are more interesting that way.

Also, fantasy.

Splat
09-22-2010, 01:43 PM
I think it would be pretty silly to not at least get some thing for him, I really don't see any way he plays for SD again.

bigbluedefense
09-22-2010, 01:45 PM
SD will be fine without him or McNeil.

Jackson will hurt them more than McNeil, but with the picks they get in return, they'll reload and keep it moving.

I still think they made a mistake getting Mathews over Dez. Dez was perfect for SD and Phillip Rivers.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 01:53 PM
I don't see how SD wins in this mess. Would the comp pick be any higher than a 2 / 4 combo? Is the franchise tag & trade going to be any smoother than the current situation?

P-L
09-22-2010, 02:08 PM
I don't see how SD wins in this mess. Would the comp pick be any higher than a 2 / 4 combo? Is the franchise tag & trade going to be any smoother than the current situation?
Well if the Chargers don't trade him then he has to sign his tender before week 11 or he won't become a free agent at the end of the year. So maybe San Diego values having him for a third of the season and the playoffs more than they do a 2nd and a 4th.

marshallb
09-22-2010, 02:20 PM
From what I've read, the Chargers want a 2nd and 3rd and the Vikings are offering a 2nd and a conditional pick, likely starting out to be a 5th and moving up depending on how Jackson and the Vikings perform, but the Chargers would only get that pick if the Vikings sign Jackson long term. The Chargers would get a 3rd round compensational pick under the old cba guidelines, but we know nothing about what a new cba would give them for compensation. So unless the Vikings offer more, the Chargers will have to decide if a guaranteed 2nd rounder and a possible, but unlikely(I think Jackson will sign elsewhere) conditional pick is worth more than a likely 3rd round pick and an unhappy Jackson for the last few weeks and playoffs.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 02:22 PM
SD will be fine without him or McNeil.

Jackson will hurt them more than McNeil, but with the picks they get in return, they'll reload and keep it moving.

I still think they made a mistake getting Mathews over Dez. Dez was perfect for SD and Phillip Rivers.

Not as good a fit as Naanee/Floyd/Davis, still can't believe I'm typing Davis. Ryan was clearly the bigger need and I wouldn't swap him for Dez. You know BBD you keep bringing up this point, and between that and your assertion that Rivers doesn't make adjustments/the whole offense is deep balls and check downs to Sproles, you have been very wrong about the bolts of late and it makes me sad.

I don't see how SD wins in this mess. Would the comp pick be any higher than a 2 / 4 combo? Is the franchise tag & trade going to be any smoother than the current situation?

It's probably more about sticking it to VJ at this point if I'm going to be honest about AJ. This guy has two DUIs and got arrested the day of the playoff game, and then holds out? I love jackson and even I can say that's a dick move.

I'd rather have him for the playoffs and get a 3rd vs. getting just a 2nd, so if the compensation's not right, let him sit out. Offense will roll regardless.

McNeill's case is just embarrassing considering Dombrowski is out there beasting. awkward...

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 02:33 PM
I can definitely understand the hesitation with the conditional pick being tied to re-signing. That's just stupid.

I also understand the potential value late in the season, but I can't imagine the Chargers could trust him to come in and perform for them.

It just seems like a situation that's guaranteed to turn into another headache next year w/a franchise tag.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 02:35 PM
I can definitely understand the hesitation with the conditional pick being tied to re-signing. That's just stupid.

I also understand the potential value late in the season, but I can't imagine the Chargers could trust him to come in and perform for them.

It just seems like a situation that's guaranteed to turn into another headache next year w/a franchise tag.

I don't think they tag him, he'll walk. McNeill and Merriman are probably better candidates for the tag.

San Diego Chicken
09-22-2010, 02:38 PM
If Davis can stay healthy, we should be ok without VJ. Davis has never been bad, actually. He gets open and has some of the best hands on the team. Philip was on radio yesterday talking about how closely he worked with Buster this offseason, similarly to how he broke in Floyd and VJ. The problem is Davis is so injury prone that I really cannot see it lasting.

bam bam
09-22-2010, 02:55 PM
If I was the Chargers, I would be happy with a second as it was because its clear he is gone one way or another. To not give up this guy for a 2nd and a 4th is crazy.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 02:58 PM
If I was the Chargers, I would be happy with a second as it was because its clear he is gone one way or another. To not give up this guy for a 2nd and a 4th is crazy.

That's what I'm thinking. Plus it's picks for the 2011 draft instead of waiting an additional year for the 2012 comp pick.


I'd rip the Chargers FO for it if my own favorite owner hadn't just acted like a giant highschool girl; ruining NE's chances of getting Mankins back in the fold over a forced public apology.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 03:13 PM
deadline is past. according to schefter the agent is dropping archie manning references lollll, that's crying into your beer if I ever heard it...the saga of the most ill advised holdout ever continues.

Meanwhile Gates and Rivers enjoy their superstar contracts. Thanks for showing up guys.

Splat
09-22-2010, 03:24 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/22/despite-contract-terms-with-more-than-one-team-no-vincent-jackson-trade/


The deadline for trading receiver Vincent Jackson (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=3202) has come and gone, and the player remains the property of the Chargers.

Agent Neil Schwartz tells us that he had worked out with more than one team an acceptable contract for Jackson, and that the deal did not get done.

Schwartz blames the lack of a deal on the Chargers' demands.

"Other General Managers, felt that the Chargers were being totally unreasonable," Schwartz told us by phone.

"Archie Manning had it right about this organization," Schwartz said.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 03:26 PM
Vincent Jackson's agent Jonathan Feinsod: "Archie Manning had it right. They call (A.J. Smith) 'The Lord of No Rings' for a reason."


LOL yes obviously these are great agents.


Damn AJ is obviously a bad GM for not caving to these guys.

Splat
09-22-2010, 03:30 PM
I would not see it as caving I would see it as getting some thing for a player that is not in SD's plans moving forward.

NY+Giants=NYG
09-22-2010, 03:32 PM
Vincent Jackson's agent rips AJ Smith

Both from Schefter's twitter

Quote:
Jackson's agent Jonathan Feinsod: "Archie Manning had it right.They call (A.J. Smith)'The Lord of No Rings' for a reason."


Quote:
There will be no trade for Vincent Jackson today, despite the fact that 1 team, presumably MN, tried hard to get it done.

Splat
09-22-2010, 03:34 PM
'The Lord of No Rings' wow burn...

BeerBaron
09-22-2010, 03:35 PM
LOL yes obviously these are great agents.


Damn AJ is obviously a bad GM for not caving to these guys.

It makes me think of American Pickers where some 90 year old man doesn't want to sell some piece of junk he's had sitting, rotting and rusting on his property for 30 years.

Even a straight up 2nd round pick for Jackson would be great. He's not doing anything for you, and you have to wonder if Jackson will even bother showing up late in the season now.

bam bam
09-22-2010, 03:36 PM
So when does this make Jackson eligible to play again? I picked him up in fantasy in the event they traded him today but now I guess I might as well drop him.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 03:37 PM
I would not see it as caving I would see it as getting some thing for a player that is not in SD's plans moving forward.

This is exactly what I'm thinking. It's not like they made reasonable offers and were refused or have been working on getting something done. They sat on 2 players that made it clear they wouldn't play for insanely undervalued, one year deals. It seems like AJ simply decided he was the Big Boss and chose to stroke his ego. I don't see how this helps the Chargers at all now, next year, or even when they get comp picks.

What happens when the suspension time is up for both guys? Does AJ cut a 2 players that have been busting their asses through 3 or 6 games in order to make room? What kind of message does that send to the team?

This really reeks of massive ego games. Nothing more.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 03:39 PM
I would not see it as caving I would see it as getting some thing for a player that is not in SD's plans moving forward.

Comp pick, plus Jackson for the playoffs is a decent tradeoff. This situation is pretty weird...if there's a lockout VJ might sit out for two years.

It's weird that the agents are upset because they had all summer to shop around his contract as a RFA, now they are acting like high school girls. As Christian Bale would say, it's amateur.


It's not just ego games although I'm sure that's a factor too, it's precedent. Can't have this situation playing out every time a contract is up, or what is the point of RFA status?

Anyone paying attention to the Chargers over the last 5 or 6 years would have known this would never work out for Jackson. So...what was the point? Nothing has changed.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 03:48 PM
Comp pick, plus Jackson for the playoffs is a decent tradeoff. This situation is pretty weird...if there's a lockout VJ might sit out for two years.

It's weird that the agents are upset because they had all summer to shop around his contract as a RFA, now they are acting like high school girls. As Christian Bale would say, it's amateur.


It's not just ego games although I'm sure that's a factor too, it's precedent. Can't have this situation playing out every time a contract is up, or what is the point of RFA status?

Anyone paying attention to the Chargers over the last 5 or 6 years would have known this would never work out for Jackson. So...what was the point? Nothing has changed.


They can't shop anything around without permission, can they?

And, again, I can't see VJax giving the team his all on a **** salary with injury concerns.

Precedent is a stretch. It's doubtful we have another year where players slated to reach UFA status suddenly become RFAs.

Also, VJax is definitely an idiot w/his suspension & DUI status. MM didn't seem to have any similar issues, though, and still he gets burned.

Scotty D
09-22-2010, 03:50 PM
Vincent Jackson's agent Jonathan Feinsod: "Archie Manning had it right. They call (A.J. Smith) 'The Lord of No Rings' for a reason."

http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter/status/25241187998

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 03:52 PM
This is exactly what I'm thinking. It's not like they made reasonable offers and were refused or have been working on getting something done. They sat on 2 players that made it clear they wouldn't play for insanely undervalued, one year deals.

Yeah but I mean they don't get to decide that. This year has brought about some weird situations and one of them is that certain guys became restricted free agents. The player's union was totally on board with that. Jackson (and McNeill) aren't going along with it, and that's the problem. I sympathize but it's how the system is set up for this year.

It seems like AJ simply decided he was the Big Boss and chose to stroke his ego. I don't see how this helps the Chargers at all now, next year, or even when they get comp picks.

AJ is the boss, he's the GM in terms of putting the team together. Some guys who are under control of the chargers didn't show up, his decision is trade em or don't. He chose not to. Not every holdout gets his way. In fact, most of them knuckle under and come in.

If these agents really think calling AJ names in the media is going to help their cause, they are in over their head, and I think everyone can agree on that one.

What happens when the suspension time is up for both guys? Does AJ cut a 2 players that have been busting their asses through 3 or 6 games in order to make room? What kind of message does that send to the team?

Oh well? Some guys who don't make the active gameday squad will get cut, not a very relevant problem in exchange for Jackson and McNeill. I don't think that's a real issue with unbalancing the team chemistry or something like that.


ooh Elvis debate me baby this is hot.

They can't shop anything around without permission, can they?

And, again, I can't see VJax giving the team his all on a **** salary with injury concerns.

Precedent is a stretch. It's doubtful we have another year where players slated to reach UFA status suddenly become RFAs.

Also, VJax is definitely an idiot w/his suspension & DUI status. MM didn't seem to have any similar issues, though, and still he gets burned.

All RFA can be signed, nobody got serious about it until recently.

If VJ comes back and doesn't give his all, that hurts his value even more. He's not exactly coming out smelling like roses.

The thing about precedent is that it was already there. In fact there's a perfect example in Gates. Gates held out in 2005 and it cost him a game, and he got a contract that was probably under market value. This year, he kept his head down and worked, and got paid. There are actually lots of examples of AJ paying the guys who show up, I can't believe VJack's team didn't figure this out.

Basileus777
09-22-2010, 03:57 PM
This whole "setting a precedent" business just seems like a rationalization. The Patriots have been doing that for years, and yet they keep having contract disputes. I don't see any reason to think that handling the Vincent Jackson situation like this will help the Chargers organization in the future. And that's without getting into how this whole UFAs becoming RFAs situation is pretty unique.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 04:00 PM
It was definitely a weird situation, and a really crappy one for the players. I just don't see how this turns into a positive outcome for SD. We'll have to wait and see.

AJ had the ability to decide what to do with them, and that's really what has me stumped. I know the players don't get to decide, but at some point you find a suitor and make a move or sign the player and move on. I just seems pointless to end in a stalemate and lose the players for 3 and 6 games as a result.

Do you (CC) feel like this has been handled in a way that best benefits SD?




Forgive me if I'm just rehashing stuff that was discussed leading up to this, but I am shocked this situation actually lead to 2 players facing multiple game suspensions over it.

FlyingElvis
09-22-2010, 04:06 PM
ooh Elvis debate me baby this is hot.



All RFA can be signed, nobody got serious about it until recently.

If VJ comes back and doesn't give his all, that hurts his value even more. He's not exactly coming out smelling like roses.

The thing about precedent is that it was already there. In fact there's a perfect example in Gates. Gates held out in 2005 and it cost him a game, and he got a contract that was probably under market value. This year, he kept his head down and worked, and got paid. There are actually lots of examples of AJ paying the guys who show up, I can't believe VJack's team didn't figure this out.

lol . . . quit ninja editing ****.

Yeah, my bad on the RFA. They can negotiate & sign anywhere, but the tags carried a pick assignment. Right . . . it's coming back to me now.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 04:10 PM
It was definitely a weird situation, and a really crappy one for the players. I just don't see how this turns into a positive outcome for SD. We'll have to wait and see.

AJ had the ability to decide what to do with them, and that's really what has me stumped. I know the players don't get to decide, but at some point you find a suitor and make a move or sign the player and move on. I just seems pointless to end in a stalemate and lose the players for 3 and 6 games as a result.

Do you (CC) feel like this has been handled in a way that best benefits SD?




Forgive me if I'm just rehashing stuff that was discussed leading up to this, but I am shocked this situation actually lead to 2 players facing multiple game suspensions over it.

You know, I don't even know what a positive outcome would have looked like for all this. Both players have circumstances worth looking at;

Jackson...god he is just an idiot. Two DUIs in a year, and then arrested the day of the playoffs. (plus penalized during the game for kicking a penalty flag, nice.) According to the SDUT that was when the organization decided he was not a long term Charger, and that's understandable even if you don't agree. So what's the next step from there?

You can trade him immediately after the season, giving him the boot like Cro. BUT the suspension was still forthcoming. So you have to play the waiting game, and meanwhile he begins holding out because that is the best way to appear responsible and mature after displaying serious character issues.

Now we're in 'no one wins' territory. His value is lowered because of all of the above. There's a ticking clock on the trade deadline. I think if VJ were smart, or being counselled correctly, he would have come in this year after the suspension and gotten his big money next year without a character concern in the world.

But since he's not, the reality is we can use him for the playoffs this year no matter what kind of garbage is going on. The Chargers are trying to make the Super Bowl, not the playoffs. So given that the difference between the trade offers and the comp pick isn't game changing, I'm on board with how this has played out.


As for MM, well personally my theory is that he is holding out because he knows his quality of play has been dropping since his rookie year. He was not great last year, or the year before, and may in fact be improving his value by not showing up. But that's not something I can really back up, just an observation.

Splat
09-22-2010, 04:14 PM
If you just let him walk for the comp pick he could end up staying in the Div or going to another AFC playoff team.

ShyneQuasiOG22
09-22-2010, 04:39 PM
If the Vikings offered a 2nd round pick and a conditional pick the Chargers should take it. It's a reasonable offer, keeps Jackson out of the AFC and IMO could help the Chargers in the future in terms of bringing in FA's.

locseti
09-22-2010, 05:35 PM
bahaha the Lord of No Rings!! You think you're making a legitimate super bowl run with Nanee and Buster Davis? I love Malcolm Floyd but come on, AJ is an arrogant bastard like the ale. You saw how Rex stood up to both the GM and Revis in Hard Knocks, basically forcing them to get a deal done with his passion and persistence. he knew what was at stake if he didnt have one of his best players, Norvel is such a pushover he doesn't do anything.

Basileus777
09-22-2010, 05:38 PM
It's a stupid move because the Chargers will never get a better return on Jackson than what Minnesota was allegedly offering. AJ Smith decided to punish a player that has no future in San Diego rather than do what's best for his team.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 05:38 PM
bahaha the Lord of No Rings!! You think you're making a legitimate super bowl run with Nanee and Buster Davis? I love Malcolm Floyd but come on, AJ is an arrogant bastard like the ale. You saw how Rex stood up to both the GM and Revis in Hard Knocks, basically forcing them to get a deal done with his passion and persistence. he knew what was at stake if he didnt have one of his best players, Norvel is such a pushover he doesn't do anything.

http://thunderingblurb.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/rivers.jpg

The entitlement, it is palpable: Holdout Jackson: Chargers' failure to trade me 'feels unethical'

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81ac051c/article/holdout-jackson-chargers-failure-to-trade-me-feels-unethical?module=HP_headlines

Can someone remind me why not trading a holdout=unethical. The crying over this is ridiculous, nothing is stopping VJ from playing besides himself, at least once his DUI suspension is over.

locseti
09-22-2010, 05:43 PM
You saw Rivers nearly melting down in the KC game, you think that guy doesn't want Jackson back? Randy Moss was an idiot for most of his career too but he'll help your ass win a super bowl.

P-L
09-22-2010, 05:45 PM
How does anyone know that this is A.J. Smith trying to punish Vincent Jackson. For all we know his line of thinking is "having Vincent Jackson for the final six regular season games and the playoffs while he is playing for a new contract is more valuable than a 2nd round pick." Vincent Jackson is going to sign before week 11, that is a given. When he shows up to play football he's going to need to play well or his value is going to drop. I really have no problem with this move.

CC.SD
09-22-2010, 05:51 PM
You saw Rivers nearly melting down in the KC game, you think that guy doesn't want Jackson back? Randy Moss was an idiot for most of his career too but he'll help your ass win a super bowl.

nice example -- Randy hasn't helped anyone win a super bowl.

Rivers will take all the weapons he can get but the bottom line is he is the reason the team contends, not his weapons. lol, maybe Gates.

Splat
09-22-2010, 06:06 PM
I love how you guys all ready have SD in the playoffs, and no I don't think KC is winning the Div but it kills me that two weeks in to the season you all ready have them locked in.

yourfavestoner
09-22-2010, 06:08 PM
I love how you guys all ready have SD in the playoffs, and no I don't think KC is winning the Div but it kills me that two weeks in to the season you all ready have them locked in.

Dude, they're going to the playoffs. Their schedule is a joke, and nobody in that division is going to take it from them.

BeerBaron
09-22-2010, 06:11 PM
I love how you guys all ready have SD in the playoffs, and no I don't think KC is winning the Div but it kills me that two weeks in to the season you all ready have them locked in.

What does it for me is Rivers >>>> Cassel. The Chiefs also don't seem interested in feeding their best RB either. In the long run, I just think that the Chiefs will wear down and Chargers will get stronger.

Anyone else like the Raiders chances a little better with Gradkowski? He's been a winner for them so far.

Splat
09-22-2010, 06:11 PM
This is the NFL any thing can happen Rivers could get hurt look at Brady **** happens.

I love Rivers I'm one of the few Chiefs fans that does but no team in the NFL is locked in to the playoffs week two.

BeerBaron
09-22-2010, 06:14 PM
This is the NFL any thing can happen Rivers could get hurt look at Brady **** happens.

I love Rivers I'm one of the few Chiefs fans that does but no team in the NFL is locked in to the playoffs week two.

See, when I'm projecting, I don't really factor in injuries that could happen...because they could happen to everyone. It makes it a constant so I don't include it...unless there's a specific player who is always getting that makes me question them a bit. That hasn't been Rivers though.

Splat
09-22-2010, 06:17 PM
I just don't like the the whole "We are saving Vincent Jackson for the playoffs" crap just over looking the whole dam season.

locseti
09-22-2010, 06:17 PM
nice example -- Randy hasn't helped anyone win a super bowl.

Rivers will take all the weapons he can get but the bottom line is he is the reason the team contends, not his weapons. lol, maybe Gates.

haa 'contend for a super bowl' ... One guy can't do it all, timing, trust, confidence, thank God for Gates.

locseti
09-22-2010, 06:18 PM
I just don't like the the whole "We are saving Vincent Jackson for the playoffs" crap just over looking the whole dam season.

Who's to say Jackson would even sign, hes probably like '**** em'

Basileus777
09-22-2010, 06:20 PM
I just don't like the the whole "We are saving Vincent Jackson for the playoffs" crap just over looking the whole dam season.

I think it's a bit odd to count on a player who will have missed OTAs, training camp, and most of the regular season to be a key contributor in the postseason.

bantx
09-22-2010, 07:36 PM
Come on its the afc west splat the chargers have a pretty high chance, and the cheifs offense doesn't help your arguement.

TitleTown088
09-22-2010, 07:37 PM
I really am quiet fond of AJ Smith.

A Perfect Score
09-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Reading all the articles on this situation, AJ Smith seems like a complete and total douchebag. I understand that there is a very important business aspect to alot of this sort of stuff, but there comes a point when you have to sit down and say enough is enough. What an ugly situation for both Vjax and the Chargers.

Scotty D
09-22-2010, 10:58 PM
Did anyone see that the Chargers got blacked out for the home opener? Do they have a history of blackouts? Are the fans pissed at AJ Smith? Hoping to bring Jackson for the playoff run is a joke. Smith is making him miss a season during his prime years. I doubt Jackson is going to help him win a ring.

Scotty D
09-22-2010, 11:27 PM
oh stop it. jackson could've reported at any time. it's not that aj smith might not be a douchebag, but jackson is just as responsible for ALL of the time he's missed.

I don't think AJ Smith ever had the intention of trading Jackson. He wants him to sit at home all season.

wogitalia
09-23-2010, 12:11 AM
Jackson is being an idiot here, none of this reflects well on him, he is sending a clear statement that money is far more important than his team or playing the game, that he doesn't care about anyone but himself and then his agents go and make it worse by taking pot shots at the team.

He put himself in a bad situation and then escalated it, about time a team took a stand against a player who is essentially ignoring his contract because he doesn't like it. Hope they fine him to death when if he continues to be a no show!

AHungryWalrus
09-23-2010, 12:26 AM
to be honest, so would i. if i'm the gm, it isn't my problem that a guy thinks he's undervalued. if he's ready to give up a paycheck for a year, and still be under contract to me the following season, he can freely do so. there's zero chance that i'm ever going to show any of my other players that i'll cave to the media holdout bull ****.

i get the player's point of view here as well, don't get me wrong. but ultimately, it's SOLELY vincent jackson's decision to not report and to not play and be out of his contract with the chargers. aj smith could not have held him hostage if he'd reported on time.

Exacto. The more unsuccessful holdouts there are, the less holdouts we will see. If I am a GM, a guy holding out doesn't lower his trade value for me. I'm not going to ship him away for a crappy deal just because he's holding out. I'm either getting something great or he's sitting.

MidwayMonster31
09-23-2010, 12:43 AM
Personally, I think AJ Smith is an egomaniac who has to win in every issue he's involved in and prove a point to everyone. I think the only reason he hired Norv Turner was that he knew Turner wouldn't be as stubborn to argue with as Marty was.
I think both Jackson and McNeill are wrong to a degree. Neither one is worth what they think they are. Jackson is one DUI away from a year long suspension and McNeill has regressed. I wouldn't give either one the money they want. Overall, it's pretty ugly and I don't see either side budging soon.

bantx
09-23-2010, 12:50 AM
He could've signed his original tender which was like 3 or 4 mil before it was lowered, and played after he was suspended and would most likely get his contract next year, but no he's an idiot.

BlindSite
09-23-2010, 02:48 AM
Jackson is being an idiot here, none of this reflects well on him, he is sending a clear statement that money is far more important than his team or playing the game, that he doesn't care about anyone but himself and then his agents go and make it worse by taking pot shots at the team.

He put himself in a bad situation and then escalated it, about time a team took a stand against a player who is essentially ignoring his contract because he doesn't like it. Hope they fine him to death when if he continues to be a no show!

All he's showing is that he's man enough to stick to his principles. No one really has the right to comment on how another man earns a living (within the bounds of the law anyway). He's not doing anything wrong, he wants to be paid what he's worth and basically being told a flat no, and not being given a valid reason.

Scotty D
09-23-2010, 03:14 AM
Ok Charger fans, you say that the offense doesn't need Jackson because you have Gates, Legadu, Buster Davis, Floyd. Well your GM just turned down a second round pick from a 0-2 team for a player you don't even need! If a second rounder is on the table and you still can't get a deal done then one party isn't trying. If you don't need McNeil or Jackson then get some ******* draft picks for them and help out the franchise. You will never see a second rounder for Jackson again and you will probably let him walk for nothing. I don't understand why you guys aren't pissed that AJ Smith is sitting on these players while their value diminishes.

I thought AJ Smith determined the in season value of a #1 WR when he traded a second round pick for Chris Chambers?

wogitalia
09-23-2010, 06:38 AM
All he's showing is that he's man enough to stick to his principles.

Sticking to principles is cool and all, but when your principle is as selfish and greedy as Jackson's is then it loses my respect. Not playing with your team because the arena isn't safe, because the coach is molesting you or something like that, fair enough, not playing and letting down all your teammates because you want more money is just selfish. I want to be paid more at my job but I'm not going to not show up at work and refuse to work until I get it letting everyone down just to prove that I am a selfish prick. I'm especially not going to do that if I signed a contract that meant it was that team or nothing because then I am being selfish and stupid.

Just sick of all the players who sign these contracts and then seemed shocked when a team expects them to uphold their end of a contract. If you don't like the contract and what it entails don't sign it, pretty simple.

Again, Jackson is being greedy and now he and his agents are being childish because his sulking and holdout didn't get him what he wanted. Grow up, if you had been a man in the first place you would have the contract you wanted by now, Jackson can only blame himself for this whole ordeal.

killxswitch
09-23-2010, 08:25 AM
Bill Polian may be a cranky old prick but he is the Old Spice Guy compared to AJ Smith. As long as Smith is in charge I doubt the Chargers will win anything.

bigbluedefense
09-23-2010, 08:44 AM
Not as good a fit as Naanee/Floyd/Davis, still can't believe I'm typing Davis. Ryan was clearly the bigger need and I wouldn't swap him for Dez. You know BBD you keep bringing up this point, and between that and your assertion that Rivers doesn't make adjustments/the whole offense is deep balls and check downs to Sproles, you have been very wrong about the bolts of late and it makes me sad.



It's probably more about sticking it to VJ at this point if I'm going to be honest about AJ. This guy has two DUIs and got arrested the day of the playoff game, and then holds out? I love jackson and even I can say that's a dick move.

I'd rather have him for the playoffs and get a 3rd vs. getting just a 2nd, so if the compensation's not right, let him sit out. Offense will roll regardless.

McNeill's case is just embarrassing considering Dombrowski is out there beasting. awkward...

I just don't see Mathews as a game changing back. With Jackson as good as gone, and the team pretty much knowing it before the draft, Dez was a great guy to replace him with. The passing game is much more important to the success of that offense than a RB. Dez gives you just what Rivers likes, big targets who can go deep, and go up and get the ball. Dez wouldve been an upgrade over Jackson long term.

It's really the fact that I see Mathews as a run of the mill RB. You could get that any time. Replace Mathews with Anthony Dixon of the 49ers and you got the same production.

And its also becoming more apparent that it was really the oline all along. LDT is looking great in NY, and Mathews has a low YPC. Oline and WRs >>> any day over an RB, unless it's a gamechanger like CJ Spiller or Jahvid Best.

Splat
09-23-2010, 09:34 AM
There is now way VJ is going to come back and play this season for SD and $600,000 it's not worth the injury risk playoffs or not.

FlyingElvis
09-23-2010, 09:41 AM
oh stop it. jackson could've reported at any time. it's not that aj smith might not be a douchebag, but jackson is just as responsible for ALL of the time he's missed.
Seriously, this really is an epic D-Bag standoff. I wouldn't want anything to do with Jackson if I were an owner and I wouldn't want to go anywhere SD if I were a player.

How does anyone know that this is A.J. Smith trying to punish Vincent Jackson. For all we know his line of thinking is "having Vincent Jackson for the final six regular season games and the playoffs while he is playing for a new contract is more valuable than a 2nd round pick." Vincent Jackson is going to sign before week 11, that is a given. When he shows up to play football he's going to need to play well or his value is going to drop. I really have no problem with this move.
I will be shocked (for the second time in this mess) if VJax signs and plays a single down for the Chargers this season. It has been said many times that they expect the new CBA to modifiy his situation. Right or wrong, I fully expect them to wait it out.

You know, I don't even know what a positive outcome would have looked like for all this. Both players have circumstances worth looking at;

Jackson...god he is just an idiot. Two DUIs in a year, and then arrested the day of the playoffs. (plus penalized during the game for kicking a penalty flag, nice.) According to the SDUT that was when the organization decided he was not a long term Charger, and that's understandable even if you don't agree. So what's the next step from there?

You can trade him immediately after the season, giving him the boot like Cro. BUT the suspension was still forthcoming. So you have to play the waiting game, and meanwhile he begins holding out because that is the best way to appear responsible and mature after displaying serious character issues.

Now we're in 'no one wins' territory. His value is lowered because of all of the above. There's a ticking clock on the trade deadline. I think if VJ were smart, or being counselled correctly, he would have come in this year after the suspension and gotten his big money next year without a character concern in the world.

But since he's not, the reality is we can use him for the playoffs this year no matter what kind of garbage is going on. The Chargers are trying to make the Super Bowl, not the playoffs. So given that the difference between the trade offers and the comp pick isn't game changing, I'm on board with how this has played out.


As for MM, well personally my theory is that he is holding out because he knows his quality of play has been dropping since his rookie year. He was not great last year, or the year before, and may in fact be improving his value by not showing up. But that's not something I can really back up, just an observation.

All sound explanations, thanks. But I still say the only positive outcome, once it was decided he wans't a long term Charger, was to cut and run. Even this last minute deal was a decent option with no resolution in sight.

Xenos
09-23-2010, 11:42 AM
I just don't see Mathews as a game changing back. With Jackson as good as gone, and the team pretty much knowing it before the draft, Dez was a great guy to replace him with. The passing game is much more important to the success of that offense than a RB. Dez gives you just what Rivers likes, big targets who can go deep, and go up and get the ball. Dez wouldve been an upgrade over Jackson long term.

It's really the fact that I see Mathews as a run of the mill RB. You could get that any time. Replace Mathews with Anthony Dixon of the 49ers and you got the same production.

And its also becoming more apparent that it was really the oline all along. LDT is looking great in NY, and Mathews has a low YPC. Oline and WRs >>> any day over an RB, unless it's a gamechanger like CJ Spiller or Jahvid Best.

Wait what are you talking about? The oline has actually shown that it was LT last year. Maybe it's Dombroski being in the lineup or having everyone healthy, but the oline has been playing better. Mathews has also been hitting holes that LT didn't make last year because he was so slow. Mathews just need to stop fumbling at inopportune times. Likewise, Tolbert is also showing that he can run the rock as well.

Xenos
09-23-2010, 11:45 AM
I just don't see Mathews as a game changing back. With Jackson as good as gone, and the team pretty much knowing it before the draft, Dez was a great guy to replace him with. The passing game is much more important to the success of that offense than a RB. Dez gives you just what Rivers likes, big targets who can go deep, and go up and get the ball. Dez wouldve been an upgrade over Jackson long term.

It's really the fact that I see Mathews as a run of the mill RB. You could get that any time. Replace Mathews with Anthony Dixon of the 49ers and you got the same production.

And its also becoming more apparent that it was really the oline all along. LDT is looking great in NY, and Mathews has a low YPC. Oline and WRs >>> any day over an RB, unless it's a gamechanger like CJ Spiller or Jahvid Best.


Wait what are you talking about? The oline has actually shown that it was LT last year. Maybe it's Dombroski being in the lineup or having everyone healthy, but the oline has been playing better. Mathews has also been hitting holes that LT didn't make last year because he was so slow. Mathews just need to stop fumbling at inopportune times. Likewise, Tolbert is also showing that he can run the rock as well.

And Norv's offense needs a running game for it to maximize it's potential. Rivers did great last year with no running game, but he needs that second element if we're going to get over the hump. Especially since Norv likes the deep play action pass so much.

Addict
09-23-2010, 11:49 AM
to be honest, so would i. if i'm the gm, it isn't my problem that a guy thinks he's undervalued. if he's ready to give up a paycheck for a year, and still be under contract to me the following season, he can freely do so. there's zero chance that i'm ever going to show any of my other players that i'll cave to the media holdout bull ****.

i get the player's point of view here as well, don't get me wrong. but ultimately, it's SOLELY vincent jackson's decision to not report and to not play and be out of his contract with the chargers. aj smith could not have held him hostage if he'd reported on time.

I agree, what Smith is doing might be a douchy move if you see it from the player's perspective, but it's the kind of douchy that you can only tip your hat to.

"Here's your new contract, you can't leave under league rules so just sign it and earn a bigger one"
- "Screw you! I won't sign it, just trade me if you don't want to pay me"
"no"
- "I won't play! HA!"
"if you don't play we won't pay you anything"
- "TRADE ME! I'm worth more than this! TRADE ME DAMMIT I WON'T PLAY"
"no. Sign the damn deal and get your ass on teh field"
- "you dun it nao! Imma call my homies up who for for dem newspapahs!"
"go ahead, do you want to use my office phone?"
- "I AM TELLIN YOU I WON'T PLAY THIS SEASON"
"that's fine. You'll just sign the tender next year and play for us then, I can live with that"
- "THAT'S STUPID! IMMA LEAVE NEXT YEAR YOU CAN'T DO THIS!"
"Oh I can and I will, Vince. Just sign the tender and we'll take care of this problem next year, or you can go FA."
- "YOU'LL BREAK, AJ. MY JOURNALIST HOMIES WILL EAT YOU UP RAW, SUCKA!"
"lolz"

bigbluedefense
09-23-2010, 11:50 AM
Wait what are you talking about? The oline has actually shown that it was LT last year. Maybe it's Dombroski being in the lineup or having everyone healthy, but the oline has been playing better. Mathews has also been hitting holes that LT didn't make last year because he was so slow. Mathews just need to stop fumbling at inopportune times. Likewise, Tolbert is also showing that he can run the rock as well.

And Norv's offense needs a running game for it to maximize it's potential. Rivers did great last year with no running game, but he needs that second element if we're going to get over the hump. Especially since Norv likes the deep play action pass so much.

Understandable. But from what I've seen from LDT with the Jets, it can't be a coincidence that he looks a million times better behind the Jets oline than he did in SD.

And I'm not denying that you needed a run game, what I am saying is that Ryan Mathews to me was not worth the investment. RBs of his skillset can be found at any point in the draft. I cited Anthony Dixon as an example. Was SD so desperate for a RB that they had to move up and give up a 1st, 2nd, and 4th for Ryan Mathews?

I just don't see how the value matches up with what they gave up. But to be fair, I'm usually not in favor of drafting RBs in the first round unless they are a game changer with big play ability in my eyes.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-23-2010, 12:18 PM
i agree that ryan mathews was way overdrafted given his talents but if the SD OL is so bad that it's the difference between LdT having a 3.3 YPC and a 6.3 YPC then Mike Tolbert is the greatest RB in the history of the NFL

CC.SD
09-23-2010, 12:21 PM
Understandable. But from what I've seen from LDT with the Jets, it can't be a coincidence that he looks a million times better behind the Jets oline than he did in SD.

And I'm not denying that you needed a run game, what I am saying is that Ryan Mathews to me was not worth the investment. RBs of his skillset can be found at any point in the draft. I cited Anthony Dixon as an example. Was SD so desperate for a RB that they had to move up and give up a 1st, 2nd, and 4th for Ryan Mathews?

I just don't see how the value matches up with what they gave up. But to be fair, I'm usually not in favor of drafting RBs in the first round unless they are a game changer with big play ability in my eyes.

Jets have a better O-line for sure but SD's has looked great through two games this season. Mathews I can tell you is running better than LT did over the last two years, that is already apparent. Whether it's injuries or a new motivation, Ladainian is looking good but I'll take Mathews in a straight swap.

The reason Vincent Jackson for sure won't be a long term bolt is because he is a huge headache, not talent. Subbing in Dez Bryant instead...well, you can see why that could easily be viewed as a lateral move (if not a step down) in the front office's eyes.


And in the interest of dropping knowledge, there is a 0% chance VJ doesn't sign for the end of the year...he needs to be on a roster for 6 games or he won't get an accrued season and will be a rfa again next season.

and I'm not shutting the door on Tolbert being the greatest RB in history.

21ST
09-23-2010, 01:00 PM
Jets have a better O-line for sure but SD's has looked great through two games this season. Mathews I can tell you is running better than LT did over the last two years, that is already apparent. Whether it's injuries or a new motivation, Ladainian is looking good but I'll take Mathews in a straight swap.

The reason Vincent Jackson for sure won't be a long term bolt is because he is a huge headache, not talent. Subbing in Dez Bryant instead...well, you can see why that could easily be viewed as a lateral move (if not a step down) in the front office's eyes.


And in the interest of dropping knowledge, there is a 0% chance VJ doesn't sign for the end of the year...he needs to be on a roster for 6 games or he won't get an accrued season and will be a rfa again next season.

and I'm not shutting the door on Tolbert being the greatest RB in history.

Costal Carolina baby

Basileus777
09-23-2010, 01:56 PM
And in the interest of dropping knowledge, there is a 0% chance VJ doesn't sign for the end of the year...he needs to be on a roster for 6 games or he won't get an accrued season and will be a rfa again next season.

Any new CBA is probably going to make him a UFA anyway, so that isn't necessarily true.

Basileus777
09-23-2010, 02:17 PM
don't disagree, but how do you figure? i'm not sure the new CBA would be able to override an existing contract...

He's only a RFA now because the CBA expired and he needed 6 years of accrued experience to become unrestricted instead of the normal 4 years. It's still uncertain, but I don't see a new CBA keeping that 6 years accrued requirement, not with all the other things the owners are focused on getting.

BeerBaron
09-23-2010, 02:20 PM
He's only a RFA now because the CBA expired and he needed 6 years of accrued experience to become unrestricted instead of the normal 4 years. It's still uncertain, but I don't see a new CBA keeping that 6 years accrued requirement, not with all the other things the owners are focused on getting.

Yeah, I bet it'll go back to 4 years as well. VJ has 5 years iirc, so even without this year counting towards him, he'd be an UFA if it reverts back to 4 years.

P-L
09-23-2010, 03:03 PM
I will be shocked (for the second time in this mess) if VJax signs and plays a single down for the Chargers this season. It has been said many times that they expect the new CBA to modifiy his situation. Right or wrong, I fully expect them to wait it out.
The NFL has done a lot of stupid things, but nothing they've done would be worse than letting Vincent Jackson become a free agent after holding out the entire year.

FlyingElvis
09-23-2010, 03:44 PM
I think the important issue is that Jackson currently has no contract. The new CBA would probably have to contain language that pertains directly to his situation to prevent him from being considered a FA.

My assumption is that the agent is thinking the NFLPA wouldn't want any such stipulations and the 4 or 5 year accrued seasons would be the requirement. Which could very well make Jackson a UFA with no contract and strip SD of any rights to him as a player.

J-Mike88
09-23-2010, 04:24 PM
I don't pretend to understand the current NFLPA & League negotiations, but I know one thing:

I am proud of a team standning up to a player who's too greedy to accept a $3+ million dollar offer to play a game.
Most teams cave in. Most players cave in.

I respect the ballz of AJ Smith, even though I reckon most Bolts fans are mad at him.

Let me ask ChargerNation: if you can use 100%, how much of your anger or disappointment is at Smith compared to Jackson? Just curious.

Last question, is his suspension over?

Splat
09-23-2010, 04:25 PM
I don't pretend to understand the current NFLPA & League negotiations, but I know one thing:

I am proud of a team standning up to a player who's too greedy to accept a $3+ million dollar offer to play a game.
Most teams cave in. Most players cave in.

I respect the ballz of AJ Smith, even though I reckon most Bolts fans are mad at him.

Let me ask ChargerNation: if you can use 100%, how much of your anger or disappointment is at Smith compared to Jackson? Just curious.

Last question, is his suspension over?

I don't think I have seen any SD fan side with VJ, not saying they should just saying.

BigBanger
09-23-2010, 05:23 PM
This is disappointing. I liked both players coming out of college and really liked what I saw once both got into the NFL. I think McNeil got a touch overrated and he still has lingering back issues that will make a team scuff their feet when dealing with a long term extension. Jackson is another drunk diving incident away from being suspended for the whole season.

It saddens me to see these guys think they have any leverage. They simply don't. They are both great players, but there are issues there with both of them. Now, they both seem very serious about sitting out the entire season... I have no idea what they are thinking. This is going to kill their value if they do. You don't just sit out for a year of football and come back the same player. Jackson was just entering the prime of his career. This should have been a career year for him, and now he's going to come back next year and take a step back. His value is greatly diminished. I don't know what kind of money he wanted, but this is not how you get paid.

Both of these guys are making big mistakes. It's hurts the Chargers and it's hurst the players holding out.

Xenos
09-23-2010, 05:31 PM
He's only a RFA now because the CBA expired and he needed 6 years of accrued experience to become unrestricted instead of the normal 4 years. It's still uncertain, but I don't see a new CBA keeping that 6 years accrued requirement, not with all the other things the owners are focused on getting.

Well it depends. He could still be a RFA even if the new CBA is signed. It depends on the exact time. So if a new CBA gets signed before the official 2011 season or after the 2011 draft, it won't take into affect until 2012.

Additionally, there's actually an existing clause in the old CBA that states if a player sits out the season while still a RFA, he will remain one the following season. Now whether the players association honor it is another question. But I think they're willing to throw three players under the bus to get certain things done, especially when every other RFA signed their tender.

CC.SD
09-23-2010, 05:32 PM
I'm on board with the team's actions but I was kind of feeling for VJ until recently. I honestly thought he had just gotten swept up in some agent spin...but here he is on nfl.com talking about how it's 'unethical' that he wasn't traded.

It's more unethical to not show up for work. Why would he think it would be unethical for him NOT to dictate what the team does. he is not bigger than the Chargers.

Xenos
09-23-2010, 05:34 PM
I don't pretend to understand the current NFLPA & League negotiations, but I know one thing:

I am proud of a team standning up to a player who's too greedy to accept a $3+ million dollar offer to play a game.
Most teams cave in. Most players cave in.

I respect the ballz of AJ Smith, even though I reckon most Bolts fans are mad at him.

Let me ask ChargerNation: if you can use 100%, how much of your anger or disappointment is at Smith compared to Jackson? Just curious.

Last question, is his suspension over?
Nope. He only serves when he signs his contract and is eligible to play.

CC.SD
09-23-2010, 05:41 PM
Also I really want to know why no one tried to pry away McNeill. I mean, not a peep? Not one team?

BeerBaron
09-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Also I really want to know why no one tried to pry away McNeill. I mean, not a peep? Not one team?

Look at what was demanded for Jackson and try to tell me the asking price for McNeil was anything reasonable.

But looking at how many downright bad offensive lines there are in the league right now, I figure that if the Chargers don't have a place for him headed forward, someone else will get him one way or another.

bantx
09-23-2010, 07:32 PM
Vjax wanted bmarshall type money

San Diego Chicken
09-23-2010, 08:10 PM
I am angry with all parties involved. Jackson for his selfishness and the Charger front office (not just A.J. - he takes orders from Dean Spanos). The window of opportunity is only open for so long. Seize it. Young, pro bowl WR's that are 6'5", 240 and run 4.4 don't come around every day.

bigbluedefense
09-23-2010, 08:13 PM
VJax needs to do something about that fro.

Xenos
09-23-2010, 09:13 PM
Also I really want to know why no one tried to pry away McNeill. I mean, not a peep? Not one team?

Probably, because unlike VJ, the FO hasn't given permission to anyone to talk to McNeill.

Xenos
09-23-2010, 09:14 PM
I am angry with all parties involved. Jackson for his selfishness and the Charger front office (not just A.J. - he takes orders from Dean Spanos). The window of opportunity is only open for so long. Seize it. Young, pro bowl WR's that are 6'5", 240 and run 4.4 don't come around every day.
I'm disappointed that we didn't accept the 2nd and conditional pick. I honestly am. That being said, you don't cave in like the Jets FO and give in to a player's demand. Gates learned that lesson the hard way and that's why he approached it the right way this offseason.

J-Mike88
09-23-2010, 09:45 PM
VJax needs to do something about that fro.
Dang, I missed it.
Fro like Gumby, or the old Julius Erving?

Basileus777
09-24-2010, 01:28 PM
sources say Jackson’s agents will attempt to get back at Smith by making sure their receiver, once he ends up with a new team next spring (or later, depending upon the uncertain labor landscape), has an inordinately low base salary for 2011 – which would likely reduce the compensatory pick the Chargers would receive for losing Jackson from a potential third-rounder to a sixth- or seventh-round selection.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-smithjackson092210

VJ's revenge!

killxswitch
09-24-2010, 01:33 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-smithjackson092210

VJ's revenge!

This just keeps getting dumber.

FlyingElvis
09-24-2010, 01:44 PM
I hope it happens like this:

VJax signs a heavily backloaded deal, taking peanuts in year one - like he would have this year w/o losing a full year of football.

SD gets screwed over and gets a crap comp pick.

VJax gets cut in year two and never lands the big, multi-year payout he wanted from this mess.

FlyingElvis basks in the misfortune of a favorite team-to-hate.

WIN!

dabears10
09-24-2010, 02:00 PM
seriously? i'm so ******* pissed you wouldn't pay me that i'm going to make sure i *don't* get paid to get even!

talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

I wonder if the Agent is putting up some upfront cash for VJ.

Chucky
09-24-2010, 02:01 PM
seriously? i'm so ******* pissed you wouldn't pay me that i'm going to make sure i *don't* get paid to get even!

talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

From my understanding it is that he would make sure his base salary is smaller as that is the determining factor in compensation picks(or at least it seems to be), while making up that money in either a signing bonus or easily attainable "performance bonuses".

Scotty D
09-24-2010, 02:10 PM
That was a great article.

J-Mike88
09-24-2010, 02:31 PM
That was a good article.
Losers on all sides, as we thought.
I guess both guys deserve some blame, but I still lay most of the blame, by far, on the player.

If all GMs, owners had had balls over the past 25 years, I believe that ticket prices and jerseys and the Sunday Ticket might be lower because salaries might not have soared so much.

Again, the more money they are paid to play, the more the owners have to increase their revenue stream, and NFL/team licensing fees are always one way they do that, as are ticket prices and the price of the Sunday Ticket.

Has anyone seen how much Super Bowl tickets have gone up in just the last 3 years? I bought one at face value for the Giants-Patriots game in 2008, and I don't know if I could afford to buy one this season when my Packers come to town here to play Indianapolis.
Hello Visa.....

J-Mike88
09-24-2010, 04:45 PM
player salaries have *nothing* to do with how much watching/caring about football costs. if the players weren't making the money, the owners would be. but the rise in cost is explained by pretty basic economics.
Payroll (player salaries) is a big component to overall team finances.
Baseball's salary discrepancy is your evidence for that.

Now, our authentic jerseys just didn't go up for no reason. There's certainly some correlation with salaries.

Cotton prices and overseas cheap labor costs have not gone up at the same % as jersey prices have, in fact all these overseas knock-off jersey sites we all have seen are further proof of this. They manufacture the same exact (almost) thing as the real one that gets the "officially licensed" stamp from the NFL and NFLPA.

The difference in quality between an overseas fake authentic jersey is often unnoticeable compared to a real one, but the retail price point is about 500% more for the one with the real NFL license. Not a little more, not double, but about 4 or 5 times the cost, despite the same components.

In fact, those fake "real ones" that are high in quality, can be bought cheaper than on NFLproshop.com charges for the crappy silk-screened replica jerseys. Why? Who needs their cut? Everyone does, including the NFLPA.

I've dealt with NFL (NCAA too, they're worse) licensing deals before and there are two sides always, and the fan is always on one side.

That's a little unrelated to VJ's holdout, but anything to keep any costs down for us fans, I am in favor of it, no questions asked.

The players say it's a business. Team's operate as a business. It seems only certain fans aren't aware that they too are part of that business.

J-Mike88
09-24-2010, 05:42 PM
it's cost vs. demand. how much can the nfl charge me, where i'm still willing to pay it. if i'm willing to pay $80 for a ticket, they're going to charge me $80, whether $20 of that or $40 of that goes to players.
Right, but let me translate that to the real world here.

Economists agree that the gap between rich & poor is continuing to widen, and the middle class is staying closer to the poor than the rich. That's fine, I don't care really.

But this is what it means pertaining to what you said:

If the corporate folks are willing to pay $800 for a ticket, then they're going to charge $800, and fewer percentage of folks are going to be able afford to take their families to games.

Seats are more vacant now then 5 years ago not because the NFL is worse, but because of economics.
Football is a business is economics. One way or another.

Scotty D
09-24-2010, 05:56 PM
If you guys are talking about ticket prices can someone explain the PSL system(Jets) to me?

Paranoidmoonduck
09-24-2010, 07:19 PM
yet the nfl ratings are higher than ever, which will turn into a better tv deal, which is, in reality, where teams actually make their money.

The reason NFL ratings are higher than ever is because only games with a certain degree of suggested interested (indicated by a sold out stadium) are allowed to be broadcast. It's the NFL's way of making sure their ratings stay ridiculously high so they can continue to charge more than any other American entertainment industry for television rights.

I don't think it's particularly good policy, mostly because I don't really think that stadium attendance and television ratings go hand in hand very well. I only feel willing to dish out the money for a game when I feel happy with my team. I always watch them when I am able though. I think a lot of fans are the same. Eventually, one would have to imagine that television companies will start demanding the ability to choose which games to broadcast themselves, because right now they are paying out their assholes to broadcast only some games.

J-Mike88
09-24-2010, 07:43 PM
Economics and flow charts aside, I like what Brother Jason (Whitlock) said about this:
A.J. Smith, general manager of the San Diego Chargers, is starting to remind me of former Kansas City Chiefs general manager Carl Peterson, and that's not a good thing.

In the 1990s, Peterson developed a solid reputation while the Chiefs won a bunch of regular-season games but few postseason contests. Peterson acquired Marcus Allen and Joe Montana and drafted Derrick Thomas, Tony Gonzalez and Dale Carter.

Eventually, Peterson's ego ruined his relationship with Neil Smith, Jared Allen, John Tait and several other key players. Peterson never won a Super Bowl. He never won a playoff game after 1993.

A.J. Smith carries himself like he's Bill Polian, the best GM in football. Smith has scrapped publicly with LaDainian Tomlinson, Donnie Edwards and now Vincent Jackson. Have the Chargers won a Super Bowl during Smith's tenure? Maybe I missed that.

I don't know who is right in the Smith-Jackson standoff. Smith probably is. I'm just tired of Smith's name being in the paper. Other GMs seem to handle their business with less publicity. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Braylon-Edwards-Michael-Vick-Vince-Young-Jason-Whitlock-NFL-Truths-092310

I think Smith's name is only in the paper a lot because VJ and his agent spout off to the media whenever possible, and because other teams (sour grapes) like the Vikings are crying that they didn't get VJ.

Xenos
09-24-2010, 10:37 PM
Economics and flow charts aside, I like what Brother Jason (Whitlock) said about this:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Braylon-Edwards-Michael-Vick-Vince-Young-Jason-Whitlock-NFL-Truths-092310

I think Smith's name is only in the paper a lot because VJ and his agent spout off to the media whenever possible, and because other teams (sour grapes) like the Vikings are crying that they didn't get VJ.
That article doesn't make any sense. AJ is nothing like Peterson. If he was then he would have caved and given into VJ's demand back in June. And Whitlock loses all credibility when he brings up Donnie Edwards. That guy had to be one of the worst person I had ever had the misfortune of meeting. He deserved to have his contract run out.

Scotty D
09-25-2010, 12:42 PM
http://twitter.com/davidcanter/status/25516780743

McNeil has signed and reported to the team.

Splat
09-25-2010, 12:54 PM
http://twitter.com/davidcanter/status/25516780743

McNeil has signed and reported to the team.

Long term or his one year tender?

Scotty D
09-25-2010, 12:55 PM
Long term or his one year tender?

His tender.

Giantsfan1080
09-25-2010, 01:45 PM
The PSL in the new Meadowlands Stadium doesn't guarantee you the right for the option to buy tickets to other events since there are 2 fanbases holding the same seat. The new PSL system in the stadium technically isn't even a PSL because of their double ownership.

CC.SD
09-25-2010, 02:04 PM
Dombrowski was playing too well, McNeill had to come in :D

If Dombo isn't our starting RT now something is very very wrong

bantx
09-25-2010, 02:12 PM
hip hip hoorayy

CC.SD
09-25-2010, 02:37 PM
McNeill loses 2.5 million by signing this tender instead of the 3+ mill one offered earlier...doesn't make sense. I would definitely suspect handshake long term deal. I would say there is still a shot at a trade but Marcus is saying the right things already, on board etc.

Plus side is this is probably a result of VJ negotiations getting one hit shotgunned down

Chucky
09-25-2010, 02:40 PM
McNeill loses 2.5 million by signing this tender instead of the 3+ mill one offered earlier...doesn't make sense. I would definitely suspect handshake long term deal. I would say there is still a shot at a trade but Marcus is saying the right things already, on board etc.

Plus side is this is probably a result of VJ negotiations getting one hit shotgunned down

I would be shocked if a long term deal isnt announced in the next three weeks

Giantsfan1080
09-25-2010, 04:18 PM
Yeah I for one am very pissed at the Giants for the whole new stadium. They really outpriced a bog amount of their fanbase and the new stadium is worse than the old IMO. They lied about multiple things to the fans including, the PSL, the parking situation, the prices and many other things. Wellington Mara would roll over in his grave if he knew about the garbage that was going on here. My friend owns season tickets and I'm of the people that always goes so I pay also and I would have been more than happy to keep Giants Stadium.

Xenos
09-26-2010, 12:34 AM
Dombrowski was playing too well, McNeill had to come in :D

If Dombo isn't our starting RT now something is very very wrong

It's actually an interesting dilemma. Dom is more natural as a LT than a RT. He also wasn't as good as Clary is on the right side when he replaced him last season.

Clary unfortunately has become the new whipping boy ala Jammer before 2007 when it comes to unfair criticism. He's a good solid player who was better at RT than McNeill was at LT last year. His main problem is those lone penalty he gets at the worst time.

San Diego Chicken
09-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Jackson is really being missed in the red-zone. Two games out of three now, the Chargers couldn't convert critical late game red-zone situations into TD's. It seems unrealistic but I really want VJ back, DUI's and all.

CC.SD
09-27-2010, 10:05 PM
Jackson is really being missed in the red-zone. Two games out of three now, the Chargers couldn't convert critical late game red-zone situations into TD's. It seems unrealistic but I really want VJ back, DUI's and all.

yah but rivers did complete 4 straight passes to the end zone in the 4th quarter, between the td and conversion, both of which got called back and then repeated. it was sick, we missed McNeill more in that game with Dombrowski getting wrecked. It was the first time Dombo looked really bad but it was really, really bad.

bolts2388
09-30-2010, 08:40 PM
"Sorry Vince Jackson" (song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OrbLZVNBuA

Bucs_Rule
09-30-2010, 10:52 PM
Can't Jackson sign for a low base next season and have tons of money guaranteed and a large base for the first few years afterward?

Scotty D
10-13-2010, 10:15 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5683051

Jackson is returning Oct. 31 and Mankins on Nov. 16

killxswitch
10-14-2010, 07:59 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5683051

Jackson is returning Oct. 31 and Mankins on Nov. 16

This is just to be eligible for free agency, right?

yourfavestoner
10-14-2010, 10:21 AM
This is just to be eligible for free agency, right?

Yeah, pretty much. I hope Jackson doesn't figure into their gameplan too much going forward because I literally just traded for Floyd yesterday.

Hopefully someone just trades for him before the deadline.