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Splat
08-31-2010, 12:10 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview10/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=5489176

By John Clayton (ESPN)

1. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/ind/indianapolis-colts)

2. Tom Brady, New England Patriots (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/ne/new-england-patriots)

3. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/no/new-orleans-saints)

4. Ben Roethlisberger (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5536), Pittsburgh Steelers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/pit/pittsburgh-steelers)

5. Brett Favre (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=112), Minnesota Vikings (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

6. Aaron Rodgers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8439), Green Bay Packers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/gb/green-bay-packers)

7. Philip Rivers (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5529), San Diego Chargers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sd/san-diego-chargers)

8. Tony Romo (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5209), Dallas Cowboys (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/dal/dallas-cowboys)

9. Donovan McNabb (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1753), Washington Redskins (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/wsh/washington-redskins)

10. Carson Palmer (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=4459), Cincinnati Bengals (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/cin/cincinnati-bengals)

11. Eli Manning (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5526), New York Giants (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyg/new-york-giants)

12. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/bal/baltimore-ravens)

13. Matt Ryan (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11237), Atlanta Falcons (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/atl/atlanta-falcons)

14. Matt Schaub (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5615), Houston Texans (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/hou/houston-texans)

15. Jay Cutler (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9597), Chicago Bears (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/chi/chicago-bears)

16. Kyle Orton, Denver Broncos (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/den/denver-broncos)

17. Matt Hasselbeck (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1575), Seattle Seahawks (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sea/seattle-seahawks)

18. Vince Young (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9589), Tennessee Titans (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/ten/tennessee-titans)

19. Jason Campbell (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8440), Oakland Raiders (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/oak/oakland-raiders)

20. David Garrard (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=3636), Jacksonville Jaguars (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/jac/jacksonville-jaguars)

21. Alex Smith (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8416), San Francisco 49ers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers)

22. Matt Cassel (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8644), Kansas City Chiefs (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/kc/kansas-city-chiefs)

23. Mark Sanchez, New York Jets (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/nyj/new-york-jets)

24. Kevin Kolb, Philadelphia Eagles (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/phi/philadelphia-eagles)

25. Chad Henne (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11291), Miami Dolphins (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/mia/miami-dolphins)

26. Byron Leftwich (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=4465), Pittsburgh Steelers

27. Matthew Stafford (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=12483), Detroit Lions (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/det/detroit-lions)

28. Matt Leinart (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=9596)/Derek Anderson (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=8627), Arizona Cardinals (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/ari/arizona-cardinals)

29. Josh Freeman (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=12473), Tampa Bay Buccaneers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/tb/tampa-bay-buccaneers)

30. Sam Bradford (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=13197), St. Louis Rams (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/stl/st-louis-rams)

31. Trent Edwards (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=10536), Buffalo Bills (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/buf/buffalo-bills)

32. Matt Moore (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11128), Carolina Panthers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/car/carolina-panthers)

33. Jake Delhomme, Cleveland Browns (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/cle/cleveland-browns)I only gave the players click the link for his thoughts on each player, and let the debating begin...

K Train
08-31-2010, 12:14 PM
love ben at 4....

favre way to high, no way is favre over rodgers anymore. id actually have the top 5 look like

Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Roethlisberger

rodgers just moves **** like a well oiled machine and gets the **** kicked out of him behind a poor line. hes awesome

prock
08-31-2010, 12:17 PM
I would absolutely have Favre over Big Ben. I agree with the first three, and I would put Rodgers at 4, Favre at 5, Rivers at 6, and Big Ben at 7 probably.

BuddyCHRIST
08-31-2010, 12:17 PM
The people in the top 7/8 is pretty set, though people's order could change. I'm glad gives Roethlisberger the respect he deserves, I use to really doubt him but when he's healthy you can't argue with what he's done (especially in the clutch). But I also would have Favre lower, and I'm a homer so I put Brees over Brady for current play.

It shows you how good the top QB's are though when someone like Rivers is at 7.

619
08-31-2010, 12:18 PM
Carson Palmer is no longer a top 10 starting QB, and hasn't been since '06. Matt Cassel should be a few spots lower. And Matt Stafford should be in the 22-25 range, where Sanchez is placed.

I'll leave it at that. I can't believe my own hate for SC QBs this year, but I'm trying to keep it real.

Rosebud
08-31-2010, 12:20 PM
I love seeing McNabb and Palmer over Eli, sure Eli just annihilated both last year despite having his defense fall apart, his OL and running game get eviscerated, the receiving corps was young, unproven and inconsistent and Eli played for weeks with a stress fracture in one foot and plantar facilitas (spl?) in the other that prevented him from stepping into his throws. But no Palmer who hasn't done **** in years is clearly a better QB.

EDIT: Wait, wait, wait, Eli lacks the fiery leadership of his brother? That's awesome.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 12:23 PM
Schaub is criminally underrated on this list. It is an absolute disgrace to have him behind McNabb, Palmer, Flacco and Ryan. Also Sanchez over Stafford is nonsense. Anyone who saw the two play last year would know that.

P-L
08-31-2010, 12:30 PM
Philip Rivers is easily the 4th best quarterback in football and he's going to prove it again this year, this time without Vincent Jackson.

Also, Matthew Stafford is hilariously low. Is this just based on team performance last year? He's a hell of a lot better than Mark Sanchez. The only guy between #19 and #26 who I'd take over Stafford for this coming season is Chad Henne (who is also way too low). Maybe Kevin Kolb too, but that's only a maybe.

Eli Manning is also far superior to Carson Palmer and an argument can definitely be made that he is better than McNabb.

PACKmanN
08-31-2010, 12:33 PM
Henne is way too low; he's going to have a great season

Rosebud
08-31-2010, 12:33 PM
Philip Rivers is easily the 4th best quarterback in football and he's going to prove it again this year, this time without Vincent Jackson.

Also, Matthew Stafford is hilariously low. Is this just based on team performance last year? He's a hell of a lot better than Mark Sanchez. The only guy between #19 and #26 who I'd take over Stafford for this coming season is Chad Henne (who is also way too low). Maybe Kevin Kolb too, but that's only a maybe.

Eli Manning is also far superior to Carson Palmer and an argument can definitely be made that he is better than McNabb.

In fact that argument is much more sound than the inverse at this point in their respective careers.

Splat
08-31-2010, 12:34 PM
Philip Rivers is easily the 4th best quarterback in football and he's going to prove it again this year, this time without Vincent Jackson.

I think no matter the order you rank them Brady,Manning and Brees are 1-3, then I have Rivers and Rodgers 4 and 5 just can't make up my mind who is 4th and who is 5th.

georgiafan
08-31-2010, 12:37 PM
seriously Bryan Leftwich over Stafford lol

Schaub is way to low should be atleast 5 spots up

K Train
08-31-2010, 12:38 PM
cant get mad about someone having roethlisberger/rivers/rodgers at 4/5/6 really....its all preference.

hell im not entirely sure brady is top 3 anymore, thats just been such an automatic thing the last few years

Rosebud
08-31-2010, 12:40 PM
Peyton
Brees
Brady

Rivers

Rodgers

Eli
Romo
Favre
Big Ben

Schaub

Seems like a much better top ten.

LizardState
08-31-2010, 12:42 PM
love ben at 4....

Hate Ben at 4. Or top 10 at all, his off the field antics have so undermined his game performances that it has to be taken into acct.

So Romo has dropped from #6 to #8 in 2 yrs? His game performance would seem to have boosted him up since he led Dallas to its 1st playoff win in like forever last season. Subtract Date Rape Roethlisberger & drop Brady for his yr. off due to injury in the 1st series of the Wk. 1 game & Romo is back in the saddle again at #6.

prock
08-31-2010, 12:44 PM
My top 10 would be this:
Peyton
Brees
Brady
Rodgers
Rivers
Favre
Eli
Romo
Big Ben
Shaub

K Train
08-31-2010, 12:44 PM
Hate Ben at 4. Or top 10 at all, his off the field antics have so undermined his game performances that it has to be taken into acct.
.

being convicted of sexual assault wouldnt change his on field performance, just being accused of it certainly doesnt.

hes going to play out of his mind when he gets back. 4 will look about right

you dont have to like him to admit his game is good, hell i dont even really like him but the man is talented

Shiver
08-31-2010, 12:47 PM
Ben's problem has been consistency on the field. He goes on and off for entire seasons. He is top-5 every off year.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
08-31-2010, 12:47 PM
15 Jay Cutler
16 Kyle Orton

Nice sneaking that one in there. Orton was a much better QB last year.

keylime_5
08-31-2010, 12:48 PM
Leftwich, Leinart/Anderson, Bradford, Freeman, and Edwards are too high. Freeman should be #31 or #32 without question. Leinart/Anderson should be in the 30s as well. Delhomme and Matt Moore aren't that bad. In fact unlike many QBs on that list I think those 2 will have pretty decent seasons this year. Moore looked good to finish the year last season, and Delhomme had the only bad year of his career playing in a system that wasn't meant for him at all, and has been terrific this preseason so far.

soybean
08-31-2010, 12:49 PM
Philip Rivers is easily the 4th best quarterback in football and he's going to prove it again this year, this time without Vincent Jackson.

Also, Matthew Stafford is hilariously low. Is this just based on team performance last year? He's a hell of a lot better than Mark Sanchez. The only guy between #19 and #26 who I'd take over Stafford for this coming season is Chad Henne (who is also way too low). Maybe Kevin Kolb too, but that's only a maybe.

Eli Manning is also far superior to Carson Palmer and an argument can definitely be made that he is better than McNabb.

based on....?

throwing the same amount of INTs in 5 less games?

winning 2 games?

crushing the browns for the only game with a qb rating over 100?

OH BUT THE JETS HAVE A CRAZY DEFENSE!!!

yeah the same one that laid a duck and cost them two wins against Miami.

Also on a team without a legitamate play maker.

We can debate about all these confounding variables about why each person's numbers look worse than the others but I wouldn't be opposed to say they had equal years last year.

But to say one is a hell of a lot better than the other??? I'm prety sure the list is ranking arm strengths. or "intangibles"

NY+Giants=NYG
08-31-2010, 12:49 PM
I don't worry about these types of things. You are comparing different players, on different teams, in different systems, with different OCs calling/designing plays, with different personnel around them.

nrk
08-31-2010, 12:50 PM
Peyton
Brees
Brady

Rivers

Rodgers

Eli
Romo
Favre
Big Ben

Schaub

Seems like a much better top ten.

I'd have Big Ben ahead of Eli, and maybe Favre. McNabb and Palmer over Eli I find boggling. An argument can be made for McNabb, but not Palmer. It's definitely a better looking Top 10 though, imo.

soybean
08-31-2010, 12:51 PM
seriously Bryan Leftwich over Stafford lol

Schaub is way to low should be atleast 5 spots up

What a noob.

P-L
08-31-2010, 12:56 PM
This is how I'd have it:

1-2. Brees/Manning in some order
3. Brady
4. Rivers
5. Rodgers
6-8. Manning/Roethlisberger/Favre in some order
9. Romo
10. Schaub

Rosebud
08-31-2010, 12:59 PM
I'd have Big Ben ahead of Eli, and maybe Favre. McNabb and Palmer over Eli I find boggling. An argument can be made for McNabb, but not Palmer. It's definitely a better looking Top 10 though, imo.

I just would hate to have Big Ben as my team's QB because dude's a tard. Even if he does everything perfectly off the field from now until the end of his career he'll still be a tard and that shows on the field when he makes dumb decisions and doesn't control and command his offense like Eli. Plus Eli's one of the few QBs in the NFL that Big Ben isn't clutcher than, which is his best attribute.

K Train
08-31-2010, 01:01 PM
I just would hate to have Big Ben as my team's QB because dude's a tard. Even if he does everything perfectly off the field from now until the end of his career he'll still be a tard and that shows on the field when he makes dumb decisions and doesn't control and command his offense like Eli. Plus Eli's one of the few QBs in the NFL that Big Ben isn't clutcher than, which is his best attribute.

ben is way more clutch than eli.....i dont even think thats a contest, maybe a little homer of me but not completely out of the question.

he makes dumb decisions but for every one of those he has a huge play. its give and take with ben

you dont see ben blow many games, but you see him win them by himself since he has the worst playcaller imaginable calling the plays and has to improvise everything

/homerism end

NY+Giants=NYG
08-31-2010, 01:08 PM
ben is way more clutch than eli.....i dont even think thats a contest, maybe a little homer of me but not completely out of the question.

he makes dumb decisions but for every one of those he has a huge play. its give and take with ben

Eli is VERY clutch himself! One of the beat writers documented some of his comebacks. Hence Eli flies under the radar due to the system we run. Notice how he had a career year when we gave him the ball and asked him to produce. We had no defense and no RB, and basically said, you need to score just as much as the other team otherwise we have no chance. That was his sink or swim moment, and he had a career year.



This is from 2008.

September 22, 2008
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/giants/2008/09/eli-is-the-comeback-kid.html#ixzz0NLmlCDJZ

Eli is 'The Comeback Kid'
If you were surprised by what Eli Manning did yesterday, or even by what he did in Super Bowl XLII, you shouldn’t have been. Throughout his entire short career, he has absolutely been The Comeback Kid.

In his 64 career starts, including the playoffs, Manning has rallied the Giants out of a fourth-quarter hole to either take the lead or tie the game an amazing 16 times. Eleven times, including yesterday’s 26-23 overtime win over the Cincinnati Bengals, the comeback has resulted in a win.
And if that doesn’t impress you, consider this: The Giants have trailed in the fourth quarter in 38 of Manning’s 64 starts - more than half. Yet he’s rallied them to win 28.9% of those times. So if the Giants trail in the final 15 minutes, Manning has basically given them a one-in-three shot to win.
Here is the breakdown, comeback by comeback. Notice, too, that 7 of the 11 have come since the beginning of last year:

2004 SEASON

Jan. 2 (2005) - Giants 28, Dallas 24. Giants trail 24-21 with 11 seconds remaining when Manning, then a rookie, famously audibles out of a doomed pass play into a Tiki Barber run. Barber goes three yards up the middle for a touchdown and Manning’s first win.

2005 SEASON

Oct. 16 - Cowboys 16, Giants 13. Manning leads the Giants down the field for a game-tying touchdown with 19 seconds left in regulation (one drive after Brandon Jacobs fumbled at the Dallas 1). Cowboys go on to win in OT on a 45-yard field goal by Jose Cortez

Oct. 23 - Giants 24, Broncos 23. Maybe his most famous regular-season comeback. Down 13 with 13 minutes left, Manning rallies the Giants and eventually hits Amani Toomer with a game-winning touchdown with 5 seconds to go.

Nov. 13 – Vikings 24, Giants 21. Manning overcomes ugly, four-interception day by leading a touchdown drive (and two-point conversion) to tie the game with 1:21 remaining. But defense falls apart and Vikings deservedly win on a 48-yard field goal with 10 seconds left.

Nov. 27 – Seattle 24, Giants 21. This should’ve been a win. Down 21-13 with 4:33 remaining, Manning leads Giants to a tie on a touchdown pass (and two-point conversion) with 1:59 left). He also sets up three ensuing Jay Feely field goal tries (40 at the end of regulation, and 54 and 45 in OT) but Feely misses them all.

2006 SEASON

Sept. 17 – Giants 30, Eagles 24. Trailng 24-7 entering the fourth quarter,
Manning engineers his biggest rally in his best game (31 for 45, 371 yards, three TDs), tying the game with a field goal drive in the final seconds. He won it on a a 31-yard pass to Plaxico Burress late in OT with two Eagles defenders about to hit him on a blitz.

Nov. 5 – Giants 14, Texans 10. Not very dramatic, but the Giants did trail 10-7 entering the fourth quarter. The game-winner was a TD pass to Jeremy Shockey with 7:49 to go.

Dec. 3 – Cowboys 23, Giants 20. The Giants are down by a touchdown in the final minutes, but Manning rallies and hits Burress with a 5-yard TD pass with 1:06 remaining. Unfortunately, Cowboys K Martin Gramatica wins it with one second to spare.

Jan. 7 (2007) – Eagles 23, Giants 20. Trailing 20-13, the Giants overcame a 2nd-and-30 and Manning ended up tying the game with an 11-yard TD pass to Burress with 5:04 left. Of course, the defense couldn’t hold and K David Akers eliminated the Giants from the playoffs as time expired.

2007 SEASON

Sept. 23 – Giants 24, Redskins 17. The Giants trail 17-10 as the fourth quarter begins, but score twice in the final 12:33, including a 33-yard TD to Burress with 5:32 remaining. Of course, the defense saves everyone with a last-second goal-line stand.

Oct. 7 – Giants 35, Jets 24. Giants trail by a field goal entering the fourth, but take the lead on a 47-yard catch-and-run by Burress. They put the Jets away for good on Aaron Ross’ interception return for a touchdown with 3:15 to play.

Dec. 2 – Giants 21, Bears 16. With their season slipping away, the Giants trail 16-7 before scoring twice in the final 6:54. The game-winning 2-yard run by Reuben Droughns (set up by a brilliant pass to Burress) comes with 1:33 remaining.

Dec. 23 – Giants 38, Bills 21. Technically this goes in Manning’s column, though he had little to do with it on a day he fumbled five times. The Giants did trail 21-17 in the fourth, though, before two interception returns for touchdowns and an 88-yard TD run by Ahmad Bradshaw made it a blowout.

Jan. 13 (2008) – Giants 21, Cowboys 17. It was a fourth-quarter comeback, but only barely. The Giants trailed 17-14 before a Brandon Jacobs’ on-yard touchdown run, 2:24 into the fourth quarter put them up for good. Manning’s best moment was a touchdown drive in the final seconds of the first half. And don’t forget R.W. McQuarters’ game-ending INT to seal the deal.

Feb. 3 (2008) – Giants 17, Patriots 14. Down 14-10 with 2:39 to go against the undefeated New England Patriots, Manning calmly jogged out onto the … oh, you know the rest.

2008 SEASON

Sept. 21 – Giants 26, Bengals 23. Down 20-16 with 4:39 left, Manning leads them to a go-ahead TD to Kevin Boss with 1:50 left. The Bengals rally to kick a FG at the end of regulation, but Manning connects on a couple of big passes to set up the game-winning field goal in OT.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/giants/2008/09/eli-is-the-comeback-kid.html#ixzz0NQAwPiAi


’08 GB-Giants
’09-10 Giants @ Cowboys Eli with a come back win

K Train
08-31-2010, 01:10 PM
i mean im not saying eli ISNT, im saying ben is better than eli and has an impressive resume of 4th quarter/OT, playoff, and superbowl come from behind wins himself.

again im not really knocking eli, i like eli alright

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 01:12 PM
Peyton
Brees
Brady

Rivers

Rodgers

Eli
Romo
Favre
Big Ben

Schaub

Seems like a much better top ten.
You're telling me there's a gap in between Rivers and Rodgers? Humor me some more by trying to logic that.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 01:14 PM
This is how I'd have it:

1-2. Brees/Manning in some order
3. Brady
4. Rivers
5. Rodgers
6-8. Manning/Roethlisberger/Favre in some order
9. Romo
10. Schaub

For me:

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Philip Rivers
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Eli Manning
7. Matt Schaub
8. Tony Romo
9. Ben Roethlisberger*

*would be at 5/6 if he wasn't so inconsistent and off the field bad.

** No Favre, boycotting him.

Mr.Regular
08-31-2010, 01:20 PM
Elite
1) Peyton Manning
2) Brees
3) Brady
Nearly Elite
4) Rodgers
5) Rivers
Very Good
6) Favre
7) Roethlisberger
8 ) Eli Manning
9) Romo
Good
10) Schaub
11) McNabb
12) Ryan
13) Flacco
Average
14) Cutler
15) Young
16) Orton
17) Palmer
18 ) Hasselbeck
Okay
19) Stafford
20) Henne
21) Freeman
22) Campbell
23) Sanchez
24) Kolb
25) Moore
Bad
26) Bradford
27) Garrard
28 ) Smith
29) Cassell
Disgustingly Awful
30) Delhomme
31) Anderson
32) Edwards


That was done fairly quickly, I may tweak things if I think about it a bit longer, but thats my rankings in a nutshell.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 01:23 PM
For me:

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Philip Rivers
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Eli Manning
7. Matt Schaub
8. Tony Romo
9. Ben Roethlisberger*

*would be at 5/6 if he wasn't so inconsistent and off the field bad.

** No Favre, boycotting him.

Me likey your list.

The top three guys are pretty much interchangeable. I think Brees has definitely earned the top spot, but if this is a projection of 2010, I'm with you on Brady. He's gonna have another "F U" year.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 01:24 PM
For me:

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Drew Brees
4. Philip Rivers
5. Aaron Rodgers
6. Eli Manning
7. Matt Schaub
8. Tony Romo
9. Ben Roethlisberger*

*would be at 5/6 if he wasn't so inconsistent and off the field bad.

** No Favre, boycotting him.


I guess I ought to clarify some things:

Biggest movers up this past year were Aaron Rodgers, Eli Manning and Matt Schaub.

Aaron Rodgers may be the most dangerous QB in the game and it is only a matter of time until he racks up the MVP, Super Bowl, OPotY trophies.

Eli Manning took a long time to develop. From about 2005-2007 I began to doubt he ever would. Ever since that playoff run in the 2007 playoffs (because he was awful in the regular season that year, thank God for defense and the run game) he has blossomed into a mature, accurate passer who can flat out make plays. Last year was his first of what I think will be a pattern of 4,000 yard seasons.

(hopefully it doesn't take Matt Ryan three plus years to develop...)


Matt Schaub is one of the most accurate passers, he runs that offense near perfectly. If I wanted someone to run my team he is right up there. The longevity isn't there yet, especially with durability concerns from the past, but on the field he is an elite playmaker. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he is in everyone's top-5 next year.

Roethlisberger went way down. The QB has to instill confidence in the team and he just doesn't. As I mentioned earlier his career has been a roller coaster of off the field problems and entire seasons of spotty play. You never know what you will get from him.

bigbluedefense
08-31-2010, 01:29 PM
I'm more curious to know how the following guys will shape up in the coming years:

Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Chad Henne
Sam Bradford
Mark Sanchez
Matt Stafford


Flacco is a more mobile, less douchebag version of Ben, Matt Ryan is almost identical to Eli so far, its scary how similar they are. Henne is slept on, he's like a poor man's Flacco, Stafford is like Cutler.

I can't think of any analogies for Sanchez and Bradford yet.

I am curious to see how those guys pan out and how they rank out in the coming years.

K Train
08-31-2010, 01:31 PM
I'm more curious to know how the following guys will shape up in the coming years:

Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Chad Henne
Sam Bradford
Mark Sanchez
Matt Stafford


Flacco is a more mobile, less douchebag version of Ben, Matt Ryan is almost identical to Eli so far, its scary how similar they are. Henne is slept on, he's like a poor man's Flacco, Stafford is like Cutler.

I can't think of any analogies for Sanchez and Bradford yet.

I am curious to see how those guys pan out and how they rank out in the coming years.

ben is very mobile....flacco can look like a statue back there sometimes, not sure where you are getting that opinion from.

i get the douchebag part though

bigbluedefense
08-31-2010, 01:33 PM
ben is very mobile....flacco can look like a statue back there sometimes, not sure where you are getting that opinion from.

i get the douchebag part though

Both are mobile. Ben is tougher to bring down, but slightly slower. Both have wiggle to them though.

Both have huge arms. Both rely on those huge arms probably more than they should. Both can do a better job of presnap adjustments but both make it work regardless.

I'd say Flacco does a better job of anticipating routes, but Ben is more of a playmaker.

I can talk about these guys for hours, I've studied all of them pretty extensively. I just usually stay out of these convos bc it doesn't really go anywhere.

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 01:34 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
4. Philip Rivers
6. Brett Favre
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Eli Manning
9. Matt Schaub
10. Tony Romo

Mr.Regular
08-31-2010, 01:35 PM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Aaron Rodgers
4. Philip Rivers
6. Brett Favre
7. Ben Roethlisberger
8. Eli Manning
9. Matt Schaub
10. Tony Romo
Good call, our top 10 is identical, except I have Romo/Schaub switched.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-31-2010, 01:44 PM
i mean im not saying eli ISNT, im saying ben is better than eli and has an impressive resume of 4th quarter/OT, playoff, and superbowl come from behind wins himself.

again im not really knocking eli, i like eli alright

I know, I am just saying he is better than people realize. You see, I said it on this MB as well as others, but we failed in epic fashion in developing him quickly.

You guys had a great young offensive mind in Whisenhunt, while Rivers had Cam Cameron who developed Brees and Rivers.

We had Hufangel who got fired and now is out of the NFL. We had to promote Gilbride and then hire Chris Palmer who developed Eli into the QB he is, and he is getting better.

The problem is our system isn't a passing one like all these other QBs. So Eli will never get the eye popping stats as Ben or Rivers in the Air Croyell system.

Like Coughlin says, our identity is run the football, control the clock, and attack the passer. Sadly, Eli's numbers will never be eye popping. Last season was great to see from the prespective that we had no defense or running game. So Eli had to do everything, and still had a career year. Imagine that ALL the time like other QBs in different systems.

Make no mistake Eli has as much talent as the top QBs, but stick in a system, where it's run the ball with Bradshaw, Jacobs, and so on.

katnip
08-31-2010, 01:49 PM
I base Super Bowl rings in this heavily, and obviously based on last year. Also how I think they'll do this coming season.

1a) Peyton Manning
1b) Drew Brees
3) Aaron Rodgers
4) Tom Brady
5) Big Ben
6) Matt Schaub
7) Philip Rivers
8) Donovan McNabb
9) Brett Favre
10) Joe Flacco

I believe Big Ben will do very well when he comes back.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 01:49 PM
Coughlin better wise up, and fast. The Giants offense is slanted heavily towards the pass now when it comes to talent. They need to unleash Manning, Smith, Nicks, etc. and play like New England does. Brandon Jacobs is terrible and Ahmad Bradshaw might break his foot getting off the bus.

bigbluedefense
08-31-2010, 01:52 PM
Coughlin better wise up, and fast. The Giants offense is slanted heavily towards the pass now when it comes to talent. They need to unleash Manning, Smith, Nicks, etc. and play like New England does. Brandon Jacobs is terrible and Ahmad Bradshaw might break his foot getting off the bus.

We might be the only team in the league that runs an iform heavy offense.

Our offense is so dated.


We probably will try to establish the run early, but will see it fail bc our oline can't block anymore, and will go back to more 3 WR sets out of necessity. My concern is we don't pass protect very well either, so unless the oline really wakes up, its going to be a long season offensively.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-31-2010, 01:54 PM
Coughlin better wise up, and fast. The Giants offense is slanted heavily towards the pass now when it comes to talent. They need to unleash Manning, Smith, Nicks, etc. and play like New England does. Brandon Jacobs is terrible and Ahmad Bradshaw might break his foot getting off the bus.

No, I think last year was an aberration. ALL our Rbs were hurt, which reminded me of the Packers not to long ago, where they signed Gado. Now everyone is healthy, so we will see. The OL needs to get healthier, and I don;t mind next draft spending picks to get younger there.

Bradshaw is fine now. He actually played through his injuries. As a coach, you can't complain if the player is busting his butt playing with 2 bum ankles. That's heart right there, and probably helped him start over Jacobs now.

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 01:57 PM
Good call, our top 10 is identical, except I have Romo/Schaub switched.
I probably underrated Romo but I can't find anything I like more of his than anyone else on the list. I've never been a Romo fan, and yet he's done nothing for me to dislike him.

bigbluedefense
08-31-2010, 02:00 PM
Draft Ahmad Bradshaw my fellow swdc posters. He's going to be a steal in the 4th round of your drafts.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 02:20 PM
Draft Ahmad Bradshaw my fellow swdc posters. He's going to be a steal in the 4th round of your drafts.

Is Jackson pretty much done? I have him in a league and am thinking about trading him now.

Job
08-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Stafford should have been first.

K Train
08-31-2010, 02:36 PM
Both are mobile. Ben is tougher to bring down, but slightly slower. Both have wiggle to them though.

Both have huge arms. Both rely on those huge arms probably more than they should. Both can do a better job of presnap adjustments but both make it work regardless.

I'd say Flacco does a better job of anticipating routes, but Ben is more of a playmaker.

I can talk about these guys for hours, I've studied all of them pretty extensively. I just usually stay out of these convos bc it doesn't really go anywhere.
fair enough....id even say flacco is a better passer than ben, but alot of QBs are. ive been saying that for years that ben is a great QB but not the best pure passer. it might be a little vague but i think guys like palmer, eli, rivers, flacco, ryan, are all much better passers than ben because they stick to fundamentals and for the most part make good decisions. but i think ben is a better overall QB than them with his clutch ability, his toughness to bring down, improvising skills, ability to avoid pressure and make plays down field. ben has guys in his face all all the time and still make plays, you get guys in flaccos face and he throws into the dirt. i remember like 8 straight passes the steelers forced flacco to just straight up throw the ball to the WRs feet


ben makes what seems to be idiotic decisions all the time, but half the time you are like....well damn, it wasnt pretty but it was effective. maybe ben could be a 4000+ yard passer on a regular basis but you could put a brick wall oline in front of him and hed still roll out, get hit unnecessarily, hold the ball too long, force the ball somewhere not everyone would which is why i understand when people have a hard time putting him on their top 5s because he does come off as inconsistent sometimes.

i just dont think he should be left off the lists because hes a douchebag, because he certainly is and always has been.

/end rant
I know, I am just saying he is better than people realize. You see, I said it on this MB as well as others, but we failed in epic fashion in developing him quickly.

You guys had a great young offensive mind in Whisenhunt, while Rivers had Cam Cameron who developed Brees and Rivers.

We had Hufangel who got fired and now is out of the NFL. We had to promote Gilbride and then hire Chris Palmer who developed Eli into the QB he is, and he is getting better.

The problem is our system isn't a passing one like all these other QBs. So Eli will never get the eye popping stats as Ben or Rivers in the Air Croyell system.

Like Coughlin says, our identity is run the football, control the clock, and attack the passer. Sadly, Eli's numbers will never be eye popping. Last season was great to see from the prespective that we had no defense or running game. So Eli had to do everything, and still had a career year. Imagine that ALL the time like other QBs in different systems.

Make no mistake Eli has as much talent as the top QBs, but stick in a system, where it's run the ball with Bradshaw, Jacobs, and so on.

valid points...but as you see from my post above i personally dont think numbers always tell the whole story. eli is more than good enough for me to have in the top 10...hes right behind ben/rivers/rodgers along with favre/schaub/ryan which is not bad company to be in at all

Hines
08-31-2010, 02:37 PM
If Big Ben comes back from his suspension and plays very, very well and keeps his nose clean this offseason and possibly next, where would you rank him? On his play alone, I think he's a top 5-6 QB, yet his off the field acts need to stop.

P-L
08-31-2010, 02:48 PM
Ben is fifth or sixth when he plays his best. However, like Shiver pointed out, he's inconsistent from year-to-year. He's been in the league for six years and his seasons have gone like this: good, very good, terrible, excellent, average, and excellent. You never know what you're going to get with him.

Rosebud
08-31-2010, 02:50 PM
You're telling me there's a gap in between Rivers and Rodgers? Humor me some more by trying to logic that.

Resume, Rivers has had more time to pad has and as Rodgers racks up more and more massive years and strong playoff performances he'll likely move into the same tier as Rivers if not the same tier Brady, Peyton and Brees currently inhibit.

Eli Manning took a long time to develop. From about 2005-2007 I began to doubt he ever would. Ever since that playoff run in the 2007 playoffs (because he was awful in the regular season that year, thank God for defense and the run game) he has blossomed into a mature, accurate passer who can flat out make plays. Last year was his first of what I think will be a pattern of 4,000 yard seasons.

Eli has never been awful. He made some bad decisions because early on he got put in the role of bus driver who needs to come through in the last minutes of each half, so he pressed in those moments and made some bad decisions. That said Eli has been a very good hurry-up QB for us since his first start, so even when he wasn't at he was developing he was clutch thus making him not awful.

We might be the only team in the league that runs an iform heavy offense.

Our offense is so dated.


We probably will try to establish the run early, but will see it fail bc our oline can't block anymore, and will go back to more 3 WR sets out of necessity. My concern is we don't pass protect very well either, so unless the oline really wakes up, its going to be a long season offensively.

We have some really crazy winds to deal with though that make it really hard for us to expect the passing game to carry us through December and January at home, so while I agree we have more talent in the passing game we need to keep the running game rolling.

As for the Eli/Big Ben clutch debate both are two of the clutchest QBs in the league right now, which is all I was saying, that Big Ben's biggest strength, his clutchness, isn't a clear advantage over Eli who's been straight up clutch since day one.

Rosebud
08-31-2010, 02:52 PM
I base Super Bowl rings in this heavily, and obviously based on last year. Also how I think they'll do this coming season.

1a) Peyton Manning
1b) Drew Brees
3) Aaron Rodgers
4) Tom Brady
5) Big Ben
6) Matt Schaub
7) Philip Rivers
8) Donovan McNabb
9) Brett Favre
10) Joe Flacco

I believe Big Ben will do very well when he comes back.

Not sure if serious?

Shiver
08-31-2010, 03:05 PM
How will the winds impact the passing game in the new stadium? It can't be worse than the old stadium, but is it better I wonder.

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 03:26 PM
Resume, Rivers has had more time to pad has and as Rodgers racks up more and more massive years and strong playoff performances he'll likely move into the same tier as Rivers if not the same tier Brady, Peyton and Brees currently inhibit.

Resume alone should have Favre first by that logic and more of the older QBs toward the top of your order. What has Rivers done individually that puts him a tier over Rodgers? I know it's such a little thing but with so many having Rodgers over Rivers alone, myself included, I don't see how you can have him a full tier behind Rivers unless you're factoring in overall team success which isn't exactly the best judgement.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 03:30 PM
Resume alone should have Favre first by that logic and more of the older QBs toward the top of your order. What has Rivers done individually that puts him a tier over Rodgers? I know it's such a little thing but with so many having Rodgers over Rivers alone, myself included, I don't see how you can have him a full tier behind Rivers unless you're factoring in overall team success which isn't exactly the best judgement.


Rodgers was a hair better last year, but Rivers was far and away the best QB in the NFL in 2008.

ThePudge
08-31-2010, 03:43 PM
My list would look like this -

1. Peyton Manning - Colts
2. Drew Brees - Saints

3. Tom Brady - Patriots
4. Aaron Rodgers - Packers
5. Philip Rivers - Chargers

6. Ben Roethlisberger - Steelers
7. Brett Favre - Vikings

8. Eli Manning - Giants
9. Tony Romo - Cowboys
10. Carson Palmer - Bengals
11. Matt Schaub - Texans (anyone could put up #'s throwing to A.J. but Schaub's pretty damn good)

12. Donovan McNabb - Redskins
13. Matt Ryan - Falcons
14. Jay Cutler - Bears
15. Joe Flacco - Ravens

16. Kevin Kolb - Eagles
17. Chad Henne - Dolphins
18. Vince Young - Titans

19. Matt Stafford - Lions
20. Matt Cassel - Chiefs
21. Alex Smith - 49ers
22. Kyle Orton - Broncos (I think the Marshall loss hurts - bold call)
23. Jason Campbell - Raiders
24. Matt Hasselbeck - Seahawks
25. Mark Sanchez - Jets
26. David Garrard - Jaguars

27. Josh Freeman - Buccaneers
28. Sam Bradford - Rams

29. Derek Anderson - Cardinals
30. Matt Moore - Panthers
31. Jake Delhomme - Browns
32. Trent Edwards - Bills

If Byron Leftwich/Matt Leinart were to be included they'd be behind Edwards for me.

A Perfect Score
08-31-2010, 03:44 PM
If I was asked to pick a QB to run my offense tomorrow, it would probably look something like...

1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Drew Brees
5. Phillip Rivers
6. Tony Romo
7. Matt Schaub
8. Eli Manning
9. Brett Favre
10. Ben Roethlisberger
11. Donovan McNabb
12. Jay Cutler
13. Vince Young
14. Matt Ryan
15. Joe Flacco
16. Carson Palmer

After that it gets all jumbled and messy and not good, so I stopped listing.

Scotty D
08-31-2010, 03:48 PM
26. Byron Leftwich, Pittsburgh Steelers

27. Matthew Stafford, Detroit Lions

http://imgur.com/cOX1i.gif

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 04:44 PM
A guy that will undoubtably jump up all of these lists next year will be Jay Cutler. Pains me to say it but he's going to make remarkable strides (stat wise) in the Mike Martz offese. He doesn't have a true number one but a reciever out of the backfield, solid high upside TE, and a couple guys I personally like (individually, of course) at WR. Completely unbiased opinion here.

Then again, the same argument can be made against him in this pass happy offense. Cutler's physical tools aren't questioned, it's his head and in an offense as gimmicky as this, his confidence should be through the roof.

With that said, the Bears suck.

CC.SD
08-31-2010, 04:52 PM
Resume alone should have Favre first by that logic and more of the older QBs toward the top of your order. What has Rivers done individually that puts him a tier over Rodgers? I know it's such a little thing but with so many having Rodgers over Rivers alone, myself included, I don't see how you can have him a full tier behind Rivers unless you're factoring in overall team success which isn't exactly the best judgement.

Sorry man I am a huge Rodgers fan, but when it comes to QBs winning games in the playoffs is definitely a factor. Plus Rivers is taller, has a cooler uniform, and is undefeated in his CAREER in december.

Ben is fifth or sixth when he plays his best. However, like Shiver pointed out, he's inconsistent from year-to-year. He's been in the league for six years and his seasons have gone like this: good, very good, terrible, excellent, average, and excellent. You never know what you're going to get with him.

Raped. heh.

prock
08-31-2010, 05:23 PM
I base Super Bowl rings in this heavily, and obviously based on last year. Also how I think they'll do this coming season.

1a) Peyton Manning
1b) Drew Brees
3) Aaron Rodgers
4) Tom Brady
5) Big Ben
6) Matt Schaub
7) Philip Rivers
8) Donovan McNabb
9) Brett Favre
10) Joe Flacco

I believe Big Ben will do very well when he comes back.

So you say you base your rankings heavily on SB rings, yet you have Brady behind 3 guys who have combined less rings than him. Don't contradict yourself too much.

J-Mike88
08-31-2010, 05:25 PM
Super Bowls seem to confuse people when it comes to rankings. If it's all about Super Bowls, then Bradshaw must be the best QB of all time.

Big Ben tried to give away their first Super Bowl, but his team was so good they still won, well the refs helped too (sorry Seattle).

But I can't complain about him being above Rodgers at this point because of their head to head game last year. Rodgers was phenomenal, but Benny set a Steelers franchise record with 500+ yards, despite being pressured, and his last second, last-play TD pass broke our hearts and was the play of the year.

I agree Matt Schaub is too low. Again, the author is failing to judge it by performance only, and instead factors in playoff and team success too much.

Flacco ahead of Matt Ryan isn't right. Again, because the Ravens are rated so high, I think clown overrates the QB.

soybean
08-31-2010, 05:28 PM
If Big Ben comes back from his suspension and plays very, very well and keeps his nose clean this offseason and possibly next, where would you rank him? On his play alone, I think he's a top 5-6 QB, yet his off the field acts need to stop.

People dont just stop raping people.

gpngc
08-31-2010, 05:30 PM
1- Peyton
2- Brees
3- Brady
4- Rivers
5- Rodgers
6- Roethlisberger
7- Eli
8- Romo
9- Schaub
10- McNabb

Brett Favre is one of the most overrated players in the history of football. I admire his durability, but he's not in the same class as the greats of yesteryear (Marino, Montana, Elway, etc.) and he's not as good as the elite guys right now.

Had McNabb been traded to the Vikings prior to last season, he would've helped them to similar regular season dominance and may have actually not thrown a game-killing interception in the playoffs, just as Favre did in his last snap as a Packer...

J-Mike88
08-31-2010, 05:30 PM
With that said, the Bears suck.
Well, those Bears still did manage to beat the Vikings last year, whereas we lost both games against those grape *******.
Had we beaten them once like the Bears did, we would have won the division.
Let's keep it real here.

Cutler is Jeckyl & Hyde though for sure. Often in the same game.

J-Mike88
08-31-2010, 05:32 PM
1- Peyton
2- Brees
3- Brady
4- Rivers
5- Rodgers
6- Roethlisberger
7- Eli
8- Romo
9- Schaub
10- McNabb

Brett Favre is one of the most overrated players in the history of football. I admire his durability, but he's not in the same class as the greats of yesteryear (Marino, Montana, Elway, etc.) and he's not as good as the elite guys right now.

Had McNabb been traded to the Vikings prior to last season, he would've helped them to similar regular season dominance and may have actually not thrown a game-killing interception in the playoffs, just as Favre did in his last snap as a Packer...

That's all true, but there's no way McNabb would have racked up the statistics that Benedict Favre did last year, or ever has. But in the playoffs, you are right, Farve always has done his best to wait til the last second and throw a season away with a freshman-like terrible mistake.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 06:06 PM
That's all true, but there's no way McNabb would have racked up the statistics that Benedict Favre did last year, or ever has. But in the playoffs, you are right, Farve always has done his best to wait til the last second and throw a season away with a freshman-like terrible mistake.

Instead, McNabb would have puked all over the field because he was so dehydrated from partying all week.

SuperMcGee
08-31-2010, 06:11 PM
32. Trent Edwards - Bills

If Byron Leftwich/Matt Leinart were to be included they'd be behind Edwards for me.

Thank you. I couldn't care less if everybody had Edwards at 32, but he is at least better than Byron Leftwich. On a good day I'd argue him against Derek Anderson, but I see no need for that.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 06:33 PM
I definitely wouldn't say Edwards is better than Leftwich. Leftwich has far superior field vision and is capable/isn't afraid of throwing the deep ball. His issues strictly come down to his release and mobility.

Leftwich isn't a bad quarterback by any means. He's just not good.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 06:35 PM
I would rather have Edwards. Leftwich sucks donkey dick.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 06:36 PM
Ninja edit ftw.

GB12
08-31-2010, 06:40 PM
Wrong


Today, 05:35 PM (permalink)
Shiver

Last edited by yourfavestoner : Today at 05:36 PM.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
08-31-2010, 06:40 PM
A guy that will undoubtably jump up all of these lists next year will be Jay Cutler. Pains me to say it but he's going to make remarkable strides (stat wise) in the Mike Martz offese. He doesn't have a true number one but a reciever out of the backfield, solid high upside TE, and a couple guys I personally like (individually, of course) at WR. Completely unbiased opinion here.

Then again, the same argument can be made against him in this pass happy offense. Cutler's physical tools aren't questioned, it's his head and in an offense as gimmicky as this, his confidence should be through the roof.

With that said, the Bears suck.

Doesn't he have to wave bye bye to catching passes in Martz system?

abaddon41_80
08-31-2010, 06:52 PM
If I was asked to pick a QB for this season I would go

1. Peyton
2. Brees

3. Rodgers
4. Rivers
5. Brady

6. Romo
7. Roethlisberger
8. Favre
9. Schaub
10. McNabb

11. Eli
12. Flacco
13. Ryan
14. Palmer
15. Hasselbeck (if fully healthy but that is a huge if)
16. Orton

17. Cutler
18. Henne
19. Kolb
20. Smith
21. Young
22. Campbell
23. Stafford
24. Freeman
25. Garrard
26. Bradford
27. Cassel
28. Sanchez
29. Leinart/Anderson
30. Moore
31. Delhomme
32. Edwards

PoopSandwich
08-31-2010, 06:55 PM
If Delhomme plays remotely close to how he's playing now in the regular season then a lot of people are going to be eating their words.

ThePudge
08-31-2010, 07:10 PM
If Delhomme plays remotely close to how he's playing now in the regular season then a lot of people are going to be eating their words.

It's preseason, relax. See: 2009 with Carolina & see: Cleveland's inferior "weapons." He's played well in the preseason, so did Todd Bouman & A.J. Feely a year ago.

keylime_5
08-31-2010, 07:15 PM
it is only preseason and they're not playing with live bullets yet, but it's encouraging still considering our QBs have been atrocious in the preseason just as they have in the regular season since the Browns' rebirth. Seeing Wallace and Delhomme look good this preseason is a breath of fresh air nonetheless.

Delhomme had a good WR to throw to and a great running game last year in Carolina, but most fail to realize the change in system in Carolina last year where Delhomme was required to think more about his throws and was uncomfortable. They wrote a good article about it:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/07/cleveland_browns_quarterback_o.html

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 07:23 PM
Some stock has to be put into preseason. Just some, though. I mean, it's all we got.

ThePudge
08-31-2010, 07:34 PM
Some stock has to be put into preseason. Just some, though. I mean, it's all we got.

Personally I put a little more stock in the last regular season than pre-season, though that could be just me. It's good to see players get out there & take a few hits, gel with their teams. It's good to see coaches fool around with different sets of personnel. It's great for seeing young players/backups translating things from the practice field onto a (semi) competitive stage.

Still, most teams play much more cautiously than in the regular season. If the coaches/owners had their way then nobody would lose any players during the preseason to injury, that's just not the goal out there. In a couple weeks you're going to have 11 bloodhounds chasing the ball.

It's nice to see Delhomme playing well against some of the starters for Detroit, St. Louis, and Green Bay but those defenses weren't really coming at him hard. He's going to play this season in the toughest defensive division in football, one in which the other three teams were all Top 5 defenses a year ago.

AHungryWalrus
08-31-2010, 07:49 PM
Why are so many people dropping Brady?

Damn, the guy threw for 4000+ yards and 28 TD's a year back from MAJOR KNEE surgery and missing an entire year. That's disgusting. He had his 2nd best completion percentage ever, 2nd most yards, and tied for 2nd most TD's.

Tom Brady is still a top 3 quarterback in the league, EASY.

Bucs_Rule
08-31-2010, 08:10 PM
Shaub put up big numbers last season, he is a dark horse for the MVP. Something half of the guys ahead of him aren't.

The defense will have to improve, beat the colts at least once and stop blowing up leads.

I expect the colts to have a superbowl slump and the Texans to win the division.

keylime_5
08-31-2010, 08:17 PM
Personally I put a little more stock in the last regular season than pre-season, though that could be just me. It's good to see players get out there & take a few hits, gel with their teams. It's good to see coaches fool around with different sets of personnel. It's great for seeing young players/backups translating things from the practice field onto a (semi) competitive stage.

Still, most teams play much more cautiously than in the regular season. If the coaches/owners had their way then nobody would lose any players during the preseason to injury, that's just not the goal out there. In a couple weeks you're going to have 11 bloodhounds chasing the ball.

It's nice to see Delhomme playing well against some of the starters for Detroit, St. Louis, and Green Bay but those defenses weren't really coming at him hard. He's going to play this season in the toughest defensive division in football, one in which the other three teams were all Top 5 defenses a year ago.


I don't expect him to be as good as he's been in the preseason this year, but I don't think he'll be anywhere near the worst starter in the league and he won't be as bad as he was last year. Change of scenery does players a lot of good sometimes. So far so good anyway. Doesn't hurt that the Browns have given up the fewest amount of sacks in the NFL since they drafted Joe Thomas.

kalbears13
08-31-2010, 08:20 PM
Personally I put a little more stock in the last regular season than pre-season, though that could be just me. It's good to see players get out there & take a few hits, gel with their teams. It's good to see coaches fool around with different sets of personnel. It's great for seeing young players/backups translating things from the practice field onto a (semi) competitive stage.

Still, most teams play much more cautiously than in the regular season. If the coaches/owners had their way then nobody would lose any players during the preseason to injury, that's just not the goal out there. In a couple weeks you're going to have 11 bloodhounds chasing the ball.

It's nice to see Delhomme playing well against some of the starters for Detroit, St. Louis, and Green Bay but those defenses weren't really coming at him hard. He's going to play this season in the toughest defensive division in football, one in which the other three teams were all Top 5 defenses a year ago.

9E_2uC42jsA

J-Mike88
08-31-2010, 09:03 PM
If I was asked to pick a QB for this season I would go

1. Peyton
2. Brees

3. Rodgers
4. Rivers
5. Brady

6. Romo
7. Roethlisberger
8. Favre
9. Schaub
10. McNabb

11. Eli
12. Flacco
13. Ryan
14. Palmer
15. Hasselbeck (if fully healthy but that is a huge if)
16. Orton

17. Cutler
18. Henne
19. Kolb
20. Smith
21. Young
22. Campbell
23. Stafford
24. Freeman
25. Garrard
26. Bradford
27. Cassel
28. Sanchez
29. Leinart/Anderson
30. Moore
31. Delhomme
32. Edwards
I like your top 5 & 10. I agree Brady is right there at that spot.

Pretty good list, but I think Matt Moore has to go higher than a bunch of those guys. As horrible as that passing offense was under JakeD, Moore got them going, IIRC. I know he didn't throw interceptions like giving away gifts as Christmas time. I thought Delhomme was St Nick.

I think Matt Moore is going to impress people this year and clearly be around 15-20 by seasons end. Unbiased as I have no affiliation for Carolina.

ThePudge
08-31-2010, 09:07 PM
9E_2uC42jsA

Not saying that's a bad example to make a point, but that's a rookie trying to prove himself. You don't see many veterans (the vast majority of NFL starters) pulling that garbage.

Also, I don't think Delhomme is the worst starter either by any stretch going into the season. I think he's a fine stop-gap solution for the Browns right now.

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 09:17 PM
This thread is unbelievable.

Drew Brees is the best quarterback in the NFL right now. Right now he's the Superbowl Champion and right now he's got the trophy while Manning's last TD pass was to Tracy Porter. Manning may have the MVP trophy but Brees was the MVP last year.

Right this second
1. Drew Brees (Give the man his props. God knows he's earned it)
2. Tom Brady (4,000 yards 28 TDs on a bum knee and this was a "down" season)
3. Aaron Rodgers (Yea, I'm saying it)
4. Peyton Manning
5. Philip Rivers
6. Eli Manning
7. Tony Romo
8. Matt Schaub
9. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Brett Favre

Yea, I get it. People don't think anything of Delhomme. Fine. Whatever. I still have more faith in Delhomme than I do Trent Edwards, Matt Moore, Alex Smith or Byron Leftwich, but that's me

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-31-2010, 09:25 PM
Philip Rivers is easily the 4th best quarterback in football and he's going to prove it again this year, this time without Vincent Jackson.

Also, Matthew Stafford is hilariously low. Is this just based on team performance last year? He's a hell of a lot better than Mark Sanchez. The only guy between #19 and #26 who I'd take over Stafford for this coming season is Chad Henne (who is also way too low). Maybe Kevin Kolb too, but that's only a maybe.

Eli Manning is also far superior to Carson Palmer and an argument can definitely be made that he is better than McNabb.

Agreed on all counts. Also, I think Cutler will put himself in the top 10 by the end of the year. I think he's gonna rebound in a big way, at least if he can stay upright.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-31-2010, 09:29 PM
4. Peyton Manning


Pass me some of that man, it's been a long day.

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 09:36 PM
Pass me some of that man, it's been a long day.

I know there will be people who criticize that and that's fine.

Right now, it's Drew Brees's world and we are just living in it. He's the man right now.

Tom Brady is a 3 time Superbowl winner coming off a down year with an injured knee where he threw for 4,000 and 28 and he should only be MORE productive this year

Aaron Rodgers had 4,434 yards passing and 30 TDs passes plus another 316 yards rushing and 5 more TDs against only 7 INTs all while being sacked 50 times. Those numbers are just ridiculous. And on top of that, he was the best 3rd down QB in the league last year. I'm all in on Aaron Rodgers and yes, I'd take him over Peyton Manning. He's just an elite quarterback.

gpngc
08-31-2010, 09:58 PM
Peyton Manning anywhere but #1 is incorrect but 4th is just insane.

His last pass was a TD to Tracy Porter - in the Super Bowl. A-Rod's a fine young player but his last pass was an overthrow to a wide-open Greg Jennings...

Manning's won at least 12 games for 7 consecutive years. Rodgers can't touch him, Brees has a ways to go, and Brady fell apart three rounds earlier than Manning last year but no one would ever question his clutch factor - they'll just point to the one pick he threw in that Super Bowl.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 10:03 PM
Why are so many people dropping Brady?

Damn, the guy threw for 4000+ yards and 28 TD's a year back from MAJOR KNEE surgery and missing an entire year. That's disgusting. He had his 2nd best completion percentage ever, 2nd most yards, and tied for 2nd most TD's.

Tom Brady is still a top 3 quarterback in the league, EASY.

He's going to be #1 again after this season.

F U year from Brady, guys. I'm telling you.

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 10:05 PM
Peyton Manning anywhere but #1 is incorrect but 4th is just insane.

His last pass was a TD to Tracy Porter - in the Super Bowl. A-Rod's a fine young player but his last pass was an overthrow to a wide-open Greg Jennings...

Manning's won at least 12 games for 7 consecutive years. Rodgers can't touch him, Brees has a ways to go, and Brady fell apart three rounds earlier than Manning last year but no one would ever question his clutch factor - they'll just point to the one pick he threw in that Super Bowl.
History is adorable, but doesn't do anything for me when the question is what are you going to do for me right now.

Drew Brees just won the Superbowl. He was the guy who should've been the MVP last year and he didn't throw an INT in the entirety of the playoffs last year. How anyone can put him below #1 is a crime against football.

As for Aaron Rodgers. I'm driving the bus. You're welcome to jump aboard, but he's the real deal. 35 total TDs against only 7 INTs and the best 3rd down quarterback in the league against 33 TDs and 13 INTs from Manning. What have you done for me lately as in last season? Aaron Rodgers was nothing short of the 2nd best quarterback in the NFC and is just killing it.

A Perfect Score
08-31-2010, 10:05 PM
He's always been #1...people just like Peyton because he was on SNL

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 10:06 PM
Wrong


Today, 05:35 PM (permalink)
Shiver

Last edited by yourfavestoner : Today at 05:36 PM.

Just because I hit submit after him doesn't mean that I wasn't in the process of already editing the post.

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 10:06 PM
He's going to be #1 again after this season.

F U year from Brady, guys. I'm telling you.

Not to mention he hasn't gotten his contract yet.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 10:07 PM
He's always been #1...people just like Peyton because he was on SNL

And because he has a bunch of stupid commercials.

CUT! THAT! MEAT!

Jvig43
08-31-2010, 10:10 PM
Yeah seriously, I know I'm a pats fan, and the homer in me cant let me stand by and let people say Brady is behind Rivers and Rodgers. I love Rodgers but come on, lets see him win a few playoff games before we anoint him here. I can see Brees being thrown into the top three, I loved the guy since he was a charger and hes been consistent the past few years with putting up big numbers. But Brady outside of the top three is a joke, and having Manning anywhere but the top two is ridiculous as well.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 10:16 PM
Not to mention he hasn't gotten his contract yet.

Big reason of why it's shaping up to be an F U year.

Also, I agree with you on Brees as of right now. I started this thread right after the Superbowl, and people largely dismissed the argument.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38517&highlight=brees

Although, there seemed to be a little shift back to Brady for the #1 spot right after Manning's chokejob.

General Zod
08-31-2010, 10:21 PM
And because he has a bunch of stupid commercials.

CUT! THAT! MEAT!

Blasphemy! Those commercials are pure gold! :-) lol

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 10:22 PM
Big reason of why it's shaping up to be an F U year.

Also, I agree with you on Brees as of right now. I started this thread right after the Superbowl, and people largely dismissed the argument.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38517&highlight=brees

Although, there seemed to be a large vote back to Brady for the #1 spot right after Manning's chokejob.
Since when did Drew Brees have great weapons? I'd love, love to see what that team does with ANYONE else under center. Yea, Colston is a good receiver, but are Devery Henderson, Robert Meachem and Jeremy Shockey really doing that much with anyone else? I really doubt it.

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 10:25 PM
Yeah seriously, I know I'm a pats fan, and the homer in me cant let me stand by and let people say Brady is behind Rivers and Rodgers. I love Rodgers but come on, lets see him win a few playoff games before we anoint him here. I can see Brees being thrown into the top three, I loved the guy since he was a charger and hes been consistent the past few years with putting up big numbers. But Brady outside of the top three is a joke, and having Manning anywhere but the top two is ridiculous as well.
Ah yes, the playoff wins finally come as a counter argument. He's played in one playoff game. I'll give you the overthrow to Jennings but atleast give me the facemask and lack of defense played by the Packers. He orchestrated one of the greatest comebacks in playoff history, pretty good first playoff game.

Edit: In no way am I saying Rodgers is better than Brady. Penalizing Rodgers for lack of playoff wins when he played in one is unfair.

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 10:28 PM
Since when did Drew Brees have great weapons? I'd love, love to see what that team does with ANYONE else under center. Yea, Colston is a good receiver, but are Devery Henderson, Robert Meachem and Jeremy Shockey really doing that much with anyone else? I really doubt it.
The quarterback is just as responsible for making the reciever as the reciever is for making the quarterback. Position players seem to get too little credit and the QB too much. Not just applying this to Brees but as a general statement. You can't simulate what a certain team would do with a different QB and vice versa. Not even in your head. I just hate that argument.

GB12
08-31-2010, 10:29 PM
Super Bowls, MVPs, Playoff victories, are all good things to bring up when talking about the hall of fame or rating players careers, but this thread is about this year. The fact that Jake Delhomme got to the Super Bowl or that Philip Rivers has never been there shouldn't have anything to do with ranking them on this season.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 10:30 PM
I love that Brady had a "down" year coming off an ACL tear and he put up 4,400 yards and 28 touchdowns. The standards for NFL Quarterbacks is going insane. Dan Marino's record is going to get shattered soon.

gpngc
08-31-2010, 10:30 PM
History is adorable - I guess that's sarcastic... and then you're argument was based on stats from last year... which is... history? You can't argue with the future because we don't know what will happen, all we know is what we did see.

I'm not arguing fantasy value - Rodgers is the best at amassing statistics.

But right now, you need a QB, you take Peyton Manning. Durability, consistency, awareness, physical ability - no QB puts those all together as well as him. Any thinking football fan with a slight knowledge would realize this after watching how the league has unfolded year after year. Brady's success, while impressive in it's own right, is much more predicated on how that TEAM was constructed - with the most memorable moment being how they were announced against the Rams. The 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is something that can be pointed to. Brady is a GREAT NFL QB, but Belichick's defensive mastery is a GIGANTIC piece of that mini-dynasty. Manning on the other hand, is the ONLY constant on that Colts team. He is the Colts. And they make the playoffs every single season. His consistency is uncanny and his meticulous manipulation of every defense is incredible - especially when you consider the moving parts along that line and with the skill positions. He's the constant. There is no one that has proven it for THAT LONG. Brees is a fantastic QB but he's not on the level of Manning because he's been the the playoffs once in the past three years. If he can be the centerpiece for a few more years, make the playoffs every single year, and keep healthy, then he can enter the conversation with Manning and perhaps Brady. Right now, he's a supremely talented, elite QB who just had one magical season. Manning on the other hand is the greatest quarterback of this generation.

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 10:31 PM
Ah yes, the playoff wins finally come as a counter argument. He's played in one playoff game. I'll give you the overthrow to Jennings but atleast give me the facemask and lack of defense played by the Packers. He orchestrated one of the greatest comebacks in playoff history, pretty good first playoff game.

Does it even matter? Drew Brees just got a Superbowl win under his belt and can't get credit. Why would Aaron Rodgers out and out brilliance the last 2 seasons be due any?

There's always gonna be another ******** hurdle to jump over. Let's see said quarterback put up great stats. Ok, now he needs to win in the playoffs. Ok, now he needs to win the Superbowl. Ok, now he needs to be great for so many years. Now, he needs to win multip... oh ****.

Shiver
08-31-2010, 10:33 PM
Just to weigh in on this, how Peyton Manning won the MVP last year is beyond me. There is no way he should have won it over Favre or Brees.

tjsunstein
08-31-2010, 10:35 PM
Just to weigh in on this, how Peyton Manning won the MVP last year is beyond me. There is no way he should have won it over Favre or Brees.
The AP clearly fell in love with the 14-0 start and credited to Manning, which he deserved. He may have been the most valuable player to a playoff team but my vote went to Chris Johnson.

Saints-Tigers
08-31-2010, 10:37 PM
A lot of guys argue that Colston isn't even a true number 1 receiver, but when we talk about ranking QBs, suddenly Brees has amazing weapons and protection(despite two mediocre tackles).

wonderbredd24
08-31-2010, 10:38 PM
History is adorable - I guess that's sarcastic... and then you're argument was based on stats from last year... which is... history? You can't argue with the future because we don't know what will happen, all we know is what we did see.

I'm not arguing fantasy value - Rodgers is the best at amassing statistics.

But right now, you need a QB, you take Peyton Manning. Durability, consistency, awareness, physical ability - no QB puts those all together as well as him. Any thinking football fan with a slight knowledge would realize this after watching how the league has unfolded year after year. Brady's success, while impressive in it's own right, is much more predicated on how that TEAM was constructed - with the most memorable moment being how they were announced against the Rams. The 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is something that can be pointed to. Brady is a GREAT NFL QB, but Belichick's defensive mastery is a GIGANTIC piece of that mini-dynasty. Manning on the other hand, is the ONLY constant on that Colts team. He is the Colts. And they make the playoffs every single season. His consistency is uncanny and his meticulous manipulation of every defense is incredible - especially when you consider the moving parts along that line and with the skill positions. He's the constant. There is no one that has proven it for THAT LONG. Brees is a fantastic QB but he's not on the level of Manning because he's been the the playoffs once in the past three years. If he can be the centerpiece for a few more years, make the playoffs every single year, and keep healthy, then he can enter the conversation with Manning and perhaps Brady. Right now, he's a supremely talented, elite QB who just had one magical season. Manning on the other hand is the greatest quarterback of this generation.

This is the type of hyperbolic **** that makes me despise Peyton Manning. He's not the Colts. Marvin Harrison is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Reggie Wayne is going to end up being just short of the Hall of Fame. Dallas Clark has a shot at the Hall of Fame. Tarik Glenn was a tremendous left tackle for a decade. Edgerrin James was absolutely ridiculous for a few years.

At the end of the day, Peyton Manning has 1 ring. So does Drew Brees. All those playoff appearances don't mean dick unless you make them count. Drew Brees may not make it as many times, but he won the most important game and beat Peyton Manning in the process.

Tom Brady is the best quarterback of this generation. He's been a tremendous quarterback, both in statistics, and in team success winning 3 Superbowls.

Peyton Manning may end up with more playoffs appearances than John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas, but you're nuts if you think he's better than any of those quarterbacks.

gpngc
08-31-2010, 10:48 PM
This is the type of hyperbolic **** that makes me despise Peyton Manning. He's not the Colts. Marvin Harrison is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Reggie Wayne is going to end up being just short of the Hall of Fame. Dallas Clark has a shot at the Hall of Fame. Tarik Glenn was a tremendous left tackle for a decade. Edgerrin James was absolutely ridiculous for a few years.

At the end of the day, Peyton Manning has 1 ring. So does Drew Brees. All those playoff appearances don't mean dick unless you make them count. Drew Brees may not make it as many times, but he won the most important game and beat Peyton Manning in the process.

Tom Brady is the best quarterback of this generation. He's been a tremendous quarterback, both in statistics, and in team success winning 3 Superbowls.

Peyton Manning may end up with more playoffs appearances than John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas, but you're nuts if you think he's better than any of those quarterbacks.

Why are those players locks for the hall of fame? Because of Peyton Manning! Look what Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon look like right now... do you think that's a coincidence?

Tarik Glenn was a tremendous left tackle for a decade. Edgerrin James was absolutely ridiculous for a few years.

EXACTLY! Those were great players, and when they were gone, Peyton and the Colts found replacements and were more than fine.

All those playoff appearances don't mean dick unless you make them count.

Disagree. Rings are important, but every game matters and every playoff appearance "counts" to me. But to each his own. I enjoy the journey just as much as the apex.

Peyton Manning may end up with more playoffs appearances than John Elway, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Otto Graham, and Johnny Unitas, but you're nuts if you think he's better than any of those quarterbacks.

I can't comment on any except an old Elway and Brady and to me, neither of those GREAT QBs epitomize "quarterback" and command an offense like I've seen Peyton Manning do.

My thing is - we are witnessing someone in the prime of his career who is doing something so boringly consistently INCREDIBLE that some don't even step back and enjoy it. We may not see another player like him in many, many, years. I love Rodgers, Brady, and Brees, but Peyton Manning is at a whole new level of "leading" a team from the QB position.

xxxxxxxx
08-31-2010, 10:53 PM
Elite
1) Peyton Manning
2) Brees
3) Brady
Nearly Elite
4) Rodgers
5) Rivers
Very Good
6) Favre
7) Roethlisberger
8 ) Eli Manning
9) Romo
Good
10) Schaub
11) McNabb
12) Ryan
13) Flacco
Average
14) Cutler
15) Young
16) Orton
17) Palmer
18 ) Hasselbeck
Okay
19) Stafford
20) Henne
21) Freeman
22) Campbell
23) Sanchez
24) Kolb
25) Moore
Bad
26) Bradford
27) Garrard
28 ) Smith
29) Cassell
Disgustingly Awful
30) Delhomme
31) Anderson
32) Edwards


That was done fairly quickly, I may tweak things if I think about it a bit longer, but thats my rankings in a nutshell.

the disgustingly awful just makes this great.

jsagan77
08-31-2010, 10:58 PM
I love that Brady had a "down" year coming off an ACL tear and he put up 4,400 yards and 28 touchdowns. The standards for NFL Quarterbacks is going insane. Dan Marino's record is going to get shattered soon.

SFT!

Not only that but he had an injury (cracked ribs maybe) and Moss had a seperated shoulder I believe. Tom Brady is the best QB in the NFL IMO, but it's definately debateable.

1. Brady
2. Manning

3. Brees
4. Rodgers
5. Rivers
6. Roth
7. Favre

8. Romo
9. Shaub
10. McNabb
11. Eli

12. Ryan
13. Joe Flac
14. Orton
15. about 10 other guys

If I were just starting a franchise though, taking age, intangibles, and mfing awesomess into account I would take Aaron Rodgers over any QB in the NFL and it's not even close... He's going to own so hard the next 10-15 years. He and Rivers are going to be Brady and Manning part 2.

steelersfan43
08-31-2010, 11:01 PM
I dont like ranking bradford as "Bad" When he hasnt actually had a chance or stafford as "okay" this early when he was drafted to a winless team.. Not fair and we should wait before labeling them.

yourfavestoner
08-31-2010, 11:22 PM
History is adorable - I guess that's sarcastic... and then you're argument was based on stats from last year... which is... history? You can't argue with the future because we don't know what will happen, all we know is what we did see.

I'm not arguing fantasy value - Rodgers is the best at amassing statistics.

But right now, you need a QB, you take Peyton Manning. Durability, consistency, awareness, physical ability - no QB puts those all together as well as him. Any thinking football fan with a slight knowledge would realize this after watching how the league has unfolded year after year. Brady's success, while impressive in it's own right, is much more predicated on how that TEAM was constructed - with the most memorable moment being how they were announced against the Rams. The 11-5 season with Matt Cassel is something that can be pointed to. Brady is a GREAT NFL QB, but Belichick's defensive mastery is a GIGANTIC piece of that mini-dynasty. Manning on the other hand, is the ONLY constant on that Colts team. He is the Colts. And they make the playoffs every single season. His consistency is uncanny and his meticulous manipulation of every defense is incredible - especially when you consider the moving parts along that line and with the skill positions. He's the constant. There is no one that has proven it for THAT LONG. Brees is a fantastic QB but he's not on the level of Manning because he's been the the playoffs once in the past three years. If he can be the centerpiece for a few more years, make the playoffs every single year, and keep healthy, then he can enter the conversation with Manning and perhaps Brady. Right now, he's a supremely talented, elite QB who just had one magical season. Manning on the other hand is the greatest quarterback of this generation.

The Patriots and Bill Belichick were both absolutely ******* awful until Mo Williams singlehandedly saved their franchise by nearly killing Drew Bledsoe. Vaunted Bill Belichick was 5-13 in his tenure at that time, and had already bombed out of Cleveland.

Mr.Regular
08-31-2010, 11:25 PM
I dont like ranking bradford as "Bad" When he hasnt actually had a chance or stafford as "okay" this early when he was drafted to a winless team.. Not fair and we should wait before labeling them.
I agree it's unfair. Difficult to place those guys though. Basically just put them where my expectations are for them. I don't expect Bradford to be good this year. I wasn't too high on him to begin with, and he's being thrown on a team with no weapons and a suspect line. Stafford is higher because I think he has elite potential, but I need to see more before I put him with more proven QB's.

gpngc
09-01-2010, 12:29 AM
The Patriots and Bill Belichick were both absolutely ******* awful until Mo Williams singlehandedly saved their franchise by nearly killing Drew Bledsoe. Vaunted Bill Belichick was 5-13 in his tenure at that time, and had already bombed out of Cleveland.

And? Obviously Brady was a huge part of the turnaround.

But the scheme BB drew up against the Rams was absolutely brilliant. They were the only defense to slow down St. Louis that year. Belichick, Adam Vinatieri, Troy Brown, Ty friggin Law. Wiggins in the snow. Tuck rule. The Pats were led admirably by Tom Brady but he wasn't the single main driving force through all of it the way Manning was and always is.

If your point is Brady is to the Patriots what Manning is to the Colts then I will point to the 11-5 season without Brady.

People love the rings, but this is a funny game played with a funny-shaped ball. Winning the Super Bowl will always have some mystique but you have to realize that a large degree of opportunity and luck will always play into it. Something as simple as that tuck rule not being called and the Raiders move on. Hell, I could go the other way and Tyree doesn't catch that and we're talking about Brady having 4 rings. Injuries, bounces, KICKERS, just one stupid fumble, a blown call, anything - to expect consecutive year-to-year perfection in this game is impossible. That's what makes the consistency so special to me. He's always there at the end or near the end. And inevitably, something usually happens (just as it did for Brady against the Giants and Brady against the Ravens and will happen to every great QB). That's not an excuse, that's just healthy, high-level competition by the greatest athletes and coaches in the world.

My opinion on this topic is based mostly on just watching games. What I watch Manning do out there - I just don't see anyone else, week-to-week, year-to-year, come close to that kind of surgical offensive work. Maybe I'm older so I appreciate the 10 years of undeniable dominance, but with Brady I see a champion, great quarterback, with Manning I see an almost inhuman machine of consistent dominance.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:33 AM
And? Obviously Brady was a huge part of the turnaround.

But the scheme BB drew up against the Rams was absolutely brilliant. They were the only defense to slow down St. Louis that year. Belichick, Adam Vinatieri, Troy Brown, Ty friggin Law. Wiggins in the snow. Tuck rule. The Pats were led admirably by Tom Brady but he wasn't the single main driving force through all of it the way Manning was and always is.

If your point is Brady is to the Patriots what Manning is to the Colts then I will point to the 11-5 season without Brady.

People love the rings, but this is a funny game played with a funny-shaped ball. Winning the Super Bowl will always have some mystique but you have to realize that a large degree of opportunity and luck will always play into it. Something as simple as that tuck rule not being called and the Raiders move on. Hell, I could go the other way and Tyree doesn't catch that and we're talking about Brady having 4 rings. Injuries, bounces, KICKERS, just one stupid fumble, a blown call, anything - to expect consecutive year-to-year perfection in this game is impossible. That's what makes the consistency so special to me. He's always there at the end or near the end. And inevitably, something usually happens (just as it did for Brady against the Giants and Brady against the Ravens and will happen to every great QB). That's not an excuse, that's just healthy, high-level competition by the greatest athletes and coaches in the world.

My opinion on this topic is based mostly on just watching games. What I watch Manning do out there - I just don't see anyone else, week-to-week, year-to-year, come close to that kind of surgical offensive work. Maybe I'm older so I appreciate the 10 years of undeniable dominance, but with Brady I see a champion, great quarterback, with Manning I see an almost inhuman machine of consistent dominance.

Meh, I see a guy who does really well in games that don't matter and looks like a flustered shell of himself in games that do.

You know how Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May?" That's what Peyton Manning is in football. He's Mr. September.

His substantial dropoff in playoff performance (in terms of winning record, statistics, being an "inhuman machine of consistent dominance," just about every category you can fathom) are far below his regular season performance. The players regarded as the greatest of all time raise their level of performance in the postseason. Manning, simply, does not.

The excuses for the guy are old and tired. I'm sick of seeing him beat up crappy teams in the confines of his warm little dome in September and October. Let me know when he does something in the postseason other than beat, arguably, the worst NFC representative of the past 30 years being quarterbacked by a borderline alcoholic. I have watched every single postseason game the dude has quarterbacked. He's not the same guy in January.

gpngc
09-01-2010, 12:39 AM
Meh, I see a guy who does really well in games that don't matter and looks like a flustered shell of himself in games that do.

You know how Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May?" That's what Peyton Manning is in football. He's Mr. September.

Even if there is or was some weird truth to that... he's 10-9 in playoff games and does have a ring...

And in last year's Super Bowl he wasn't stellar but Drew Brees pitched a perfect game on the other side and he made one mistake. A big one, but I wouldn't say he looked like a shell of himself... he sure didn't against the Jets vaunted defense in the AFCCG which I think I'd classify as a game that mattered...

I think I'd explain the disparity between his regular season ridiculousness and scattered postseason struggles as the NFL playoffs being really ******* difficult.

gpngc
09-01-2010, 12:45 AM
Meh, I see a guy who does really well in games that don't matter and looks like a flustered shell of himself in games that do.

You know how Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May?" That's what Peyton Manning is in football. He's Mr. September.

His substantial dropoff in playoff performance (in terms of winning record, statistics, being an "inhuman machine of consistent dominance," just about every category you can fathom) are far below his regular season performance. The players regarded as the greatest of all time raise their level of performance in the postseason. Manning, simply, does not.

The excuses for the guy are old and tired. I'm sick of seeing him beat up crappy teams in the confines of his warm little dome in September and October. Let me know when he does something in the postseason other than beat, arguably, the worst NFC representative of the past 30 years being quarterbacked by a borderline alcoholic. I have watched every single postseason game the dude has quarterbacked. He's not the same guy in January.

He's not borderline.

Before they beat Rexy, they beat Brady's Pats 38-34 in the AFCCG. That game not big enough? Or it doesn't count because Brady had beaten him in the past? A Super Bowl's a Super Bowl...

And last year he beat the Jets (who I'll argue were a very weak AFCCG team) but also spanked the Ravens - the team that killed the Pats the previous week...

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:51 AM
Even if there is or was some weird truth to that... he's 10-9 in playoff games and does have a ring...

And in last year's Super Bowl he wasn't stellar but Drew Brees pitched a perfect game on the other side and he made one mistake. A big one, but I wouldn't say he looked like a shell of himself... he sure didn't against the Jets vaunted defense in the AFCCG which I think I'd classify as a game that mattered...

I think I'd explain the disparity between his regular season ridiculousness and scattered postseason struggles as the NFL playoffs being really ******* difficult.

You must not have been watching the same Superbowl as me, because after the first quarter, they put a grand total of seven points on the board.

I don't know how you can call his performance in the final two minutes as anything else than a flustered shell of his normal self. He not only had the pick to Porter, but threw another one right to Malcolm Jenkins that he just flat out dropped.

10-9 with one ring, yet he goes into every postseason game as the favorite and gets upset nearly every single year. And then you have to consider his sharp decrease in production in the playoffs compared to his regular season numbers. Meanwhile, his contemporary has a 14-4 record with three rings and whose numbers stay on par with his regular season performance. His newest competition just beat him (and vastly outplayed him) on the biggest stage and had executed a flawless postseason.

But it's the team, and the system, and the incredible supporting casts and coaches for everyone else. Meanwhile, it's Peyton, Peyton, Peyton, and nothing but Peyton in Indy.

edit: I also don't understand the Cassel argument, either. They went from being in the Superbowl to missing the playoffs against the weakest schedule in the NFL that year (they played the AFC and NFC West for god's sake). Not to mention, the team that won the division won one ******* game the year before. One. Game. Think about that for a second. You go from being in the Superbowl, to losing your division to a team that was 1-15.

Saints-Tigers
09-01-2010, 12:54 AM
It's better to be like John Elway. Have big time tools, and be pretty good but lose, and then win when you are on a stacked team and aren't even the best player.

Most comebacks ever!!!!!

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 01:00 AM
It's better to be like John Elway. Have big time tools, and be pretty good but lose, and then win when you are on a stacked team and aren't even the best player.

Most comebacks ever!!!!!

At least when Elway was losing in the playoffs, his teams weren't favored. Elway was going to Superbowls despite being on a terrible team and a terrible coach (who served as an equally terrible GM). He was dragging them there kicking and screaming.

Joecool
09-01-2010, 01:17 AM
This is what the real top 10 should look like.
1. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts
2. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
3. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
4. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
5. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
6. Donovan McNabb, Washington Redskins
7. Eli Manning, New York Giants
8. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
9. Chad Henne, Miami Dolphins
10. Jake Delhomme, Cleveland Browns

CC.SD
09-01-2010, 01:28 AM
This is what the real top 10 should look like.
1. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts
2. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
3. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
4. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
5. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
6. Donovan McNabb, Washington Redskins
7. Eli Manning, New York Giants
8. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
9. Chad Henne, Miami Dolphins
10. Jake Delhomme, Cleveland Browns

Nah.

and I even like Henne. But get him out. and Delhomme, yeesh.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 01:30 AM
He's not borderline.

Before they beat Rexy, they beat Brady's Pats 38-34 in the AFCCG. That game not big enough? Or it doesn't count because Brady had beaten him in the past? A Super Bowl's a Super Bowl...

And last year he beat the Jets (who I'll argue were a very weak AFCCG team) but also spanked the Ravens - the team that killed the Pats the previous week...

It's not that it doesn't count, but I fail to see how one year of postseason success pulls him even with Brady's multiple years.

Really, it comes down to this:

If you want a guy to play in October against Detroit, and call his own plays, and flail his arms around and make fake audibles to psyche the defense out, it's Peyton Manning.

If you want that can get you through the most treacherous part of the season (where weather is often a huge factor as well), where everyone is playing at the highest possible level and not just going through the motions, it's Tom Brady.

Rosebud
09-01-2010, 02:46 AM
So basically what I've got from reading the past two pages is that the environment a QB plays in matters tremendously? Who'd of thunk it? SO Peyton getting a bunch of games in a dome helps him consistently dominate in the regular season while Brady's stats dive in the winters up in Foxboro? No ****? That's why stats are so ******** when comparing QBs. Especially when you're talking about a handful of throws working out differently out of 500+ throws that most of the elite QBs make a year.

I'm not a stat guy when it comes too football and in basketball I'm more of an advanced stat guy, but I was curious and so I thought I'd do a quick check of Eli's stats, 4024 yards, 63% completion percentage, 7.9 YPA, 27 TDs, 14 picks, only 30 sacks. Good numbers for someone no one considers a top 5 QB. I picked eli not only because I'm a giants fan but I think he's a perfect example of a QB in a terrible position to put up big numbers, we run a lot, we're conservative and trust our defense, our home games in the winter suck to throw the ball in, and we have a lot of injuries. Still I found that the difference between his numbers and those of the "elite" QBs wasn't that overwhelming. I'm not suggesting Eli is the best QB in the NFL or even in the discussion, but when you look at the numbers he's putting up in his situation the difference between that and what a lot of these better performing spread/dome guys are putting up you realize that the statistical differences between the very best and the 10th best QB in the NFL are very small and highly influenced by forces outside of either QB's aptitude.

I didn't even get into different passing styles and how the styles of some teams are designed to give their QBs better windows down the field while some passing set ups try to attack a shorter part of the field. The QB can only throw to the routes his receivers are running so ignoring this passing focus and it's influence on a QB's stats seems silly.

Given how much context is actually necessary to really compare any two closely ranked QBs, I find it always a painful endeavor.

BlindSite
09-01-2010, 06:43 AM
Matt Moore being so low is a ******* disgrace, sure he's not overly proven but he's definitely better than Mark Sanchez at this point.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 07:29 AM
I don't even think Manning vs. Brady has ever really been a debate and when Cassel came in and went 11-5 I think that finally proved Manning was better. Just my opinion but if I was building a team from scratch or already had a team and had to pick one of them it would be Manning, easily.

nepg
09-01-2010, 08:12 AM
I don't even think Manning vs. Brady has ever really been a debate and when Cassel came in and went 11-5 I think that finally proved Manning was better. Just my opinion but if I was building a team from scratch or already had a team and had to pick one of them it would be Manning, easily.
OK...that makes sense in what way?

1. You're downgrading Brady because Matt Cassel, who starts for the Chiefs now, is far-superior to Jim Sorgi/Curtis Painter who are both clinging to their jobs?

2. You're downgrading Brady because his team was 5 games worse and missed the playoffs without him?

Joecool
09-01-2010, 08:27 AM
OK...that makes sense in what way?

1. You're downgrading Brady because Matt Cassel, who starts for the Chiefs now, is far-superior to Jim Sorgi/Curtis Painter who are both clinging to their jobs?

2. You're downgrading Brady because his team was 5 games worse and missed the playoffs without him?

Tbh brady sucks! I mean he can play but hes not even in the top 5. Just cause he has rings doesnt mean hes good. But he is good just imo not the BEST! Drew Brees and Peyton Manning clearly much better QBs.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 08:30 AM
OK...that makes sense in what way?

1. You're downgrading Brady because Matt Cassel, who starts for the Chiefs now, is far-superior to Jim Sorgi/Curtis Painter who are both clinging to their jobs?

2. You're downgrading Brady because his team was 5 games worse and missed the playoffs without him?

When Cassel came in and the Patriots were still competing for the division it proved to me that Brady is somewhat of a system QB. Look at Cassel now, he is way worse on the Chiefs than he was in 2008. I think that any decent QB could have done well with the weapons that the Patriots have had over the past few years, and before then their defense was doing the majority of the work. Don't get me wrong, I think Brady is a borderline top 10 all time QB.

AntoinCD
09-01-2010, 08:32 AM
I don't even think Manning vs. Brady has ever really been a debate and when Cassel came in and went 11-5 I think that finally proved Manning was better. Just my opinion but if I was building a team from scratch or already had a team and had to pick one of them it would be Manning, easily.

Ok so when Matt Cassell came in and took over possibly the greatest offense of all time and failed to make playoffs and lost the division to the Dolphins, who the year before were one of the worst teams in history, that shows that Brady is worse than Manning?

Matt Cassell is currently a starting QB in the league. If another starting QB, even in the lower half of QBs in the league, played for the Colts with their weapons they would be successful. Not as successful as Manning but successful nonetheless.

Quick hypothetical question here, if the Colts traded for say Matt Moore and Manning went down week one, and Moore led the Colts to a 10-6 record. Does that disprove your theory that Manning is better?

I'm not neccessarily arguing that Manning isn't better or vice versa but your arguement is not the best way to make it

tjsunstein
09-01-2010, 08:34 AM
Tbh brady sucks! I mean he can play but hes not even in the top 5. Just cause he has rings doesnt mean hes good. But he is good just imo not the BEST! Drew Brees and Peyton Manning clearly much better QBs.
Don't ruin it. This is a legit thread for the most part.

Michigan
09-01-2010, 08:39 AM
Why are my boys Henne and Stafford so low. Why are Sanchez and Leftwich so high...

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 08:46 AM
I hate when people say championships don't matter. They absolutely matter.

If championships didn't matter, Dan Marino would be everyone's consensus greatest qb of all time.

Rings aren't the only factor of course, which is why you don't say Trent Dilfer is a good qb, but they absolutely play a factor when evaluating qbs.

The great qbs go above and beyond and transcend the talent on their team, and take that team to championship level football.

Montana went 18-1 with the 84 49ers winning the SB. Go look at that 84 team's roster. It's hardly the offensive power house that Peyton Manning has run over the years.

Especially in today's league of parity. With teams being so close in talent, having a ring absolutely plays a role in where you rank.

J-Mike88
09-01-2010, 09:17 AM
This is what the real top 10 should look like.
1. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts
2. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
3. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
4. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
5. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
6. Donovan McNabb, Washington Redskins
7. Eli Manning, New York Giants
8. Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens
9. Chad Henne, Miami Dolphins
10. Jake Delhomme, Cleveland Browns
Wow, Delhomme and Henne ahead of Brady & Favre.
Did everyone + rep this man for this out-on-a-limb top 10???

A Perfect Score
09-01-2010, 09:53 AM
Any top 10 that includes Jake Delhomme and excludes Tom Brady should be immediately ridiculed and tossed out. It isnt going out on a limb or being provocative...its just dumb.

keylime_5
09-01-2010, 10:00 AM
well, some people don't acknowledge michigan players in the NFL having success. henne is the exception b/c he was 0-4.

P-L
09-01-2010, 10:06 AM
I think I'd explain the disparity between his regular season ridiculousness and scattered postseason struggles as the NFL playoffs being really ******* difficult.

That might be a good explanation if guys like Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, etc. also experienced a similar drop in performance.

Peyton Manning's postseason winning percentage is 201 points lower than his regular season winning percentage. Tom Brady's is 14 points higher, Roethlisberger's is 102 points higher, and Drew Brees' (Saints tenure) is 197 points higher. So we have three top quarterbacks who all elevate their games in the playoffs and we have guys like Favre and McNabb who only see a slight dip yet we're supposed to feel bad for Peyton because the playoffs are just so difficult? Boo-*******-hoo.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-01-2010, 10:22 AM
I don't even think Manning vs. Brady has ever really been a debate and when Cassel came in and went 11-5 I think that finally proved Manning was better. Just my opinion but if I was building a team from scratch or already had a team and had to pick one of them it would be Manning, easily.

Bad logic IMO. In case you missed it, the Patriots the year before went 16-0 with a much more difficult schedule.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 10:32 AM
i don't buy it (though i'm NOT getting into ranking qbs, i think banning said something to the effect of how ridiculous an idea it is to try to rank them). rings should be completely irrelevant. what *should* be relevant, is postseason performance. peyton manning shouldn't get bonus points for finally having a ring if he was (hypothetically or not) mediocre in the playoffs on the way to getting it. john elway shouldn't be downgraded because the defense let in 55 points in the super bowl. trent dilfer shouldn't be graded up because the ravens defense could've won games without an offense even taking the field.

everyone looks at rings like they look at stats, and it's absolutely ridiculous.

EXACTLY. It's not just the ring, it's the entire context of postseason performance.

I hate, hate, hate when people try to liken Elway's Superbowl record to Manning's postseason failures. People truly don't appreciate how pitifully average those Broncos teams were, and how terrible of a coach/GM Dan Reeves was. The fact that he was getting into the playoffs and beating much better teams (the Browns, who he beat all three times in the AFC Championship were VASTLY superior. Hell, I think when the Broncos went to the SB in 88, they were ******* 8-8 during the regular season) is a testament in itself.

That's why people hate the hyperbole associated with Manning. There were great players before him who meant just as much, or more to their team's success. These days, people will lead you to believe that he's the first ******* guy to ever call his own plays, and that somehow makes him a revolutionary player.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 10:34 AM
i don't buy it (though i'm NOT getting into ranking qbs, i think banning said something to the effect of how ridiculous an idea it is to try to rank them). rings should be completely irrelevant. what *should* be relevant, is postseason performance. peyton manning shouldn't get bonus points for finally having a ring if he was (hypothetically or not) mediocre in the playoffs on the way to getting it. john elway shouldn't be downgraded because the defense let in 55 points in the super bowl. trent dilfer shouldn't be graded up because the ravens defense could've won games without an offense even taking the field.

everyone looks at rings like they look at stats, and it's absolutely ridiculous.

yes, that is true. i should be more specific.

I agree with that. It's just that in general, the guys who do have rings perform better in the postseason than the guys who don't. But it is too broad of a term, I agree with that.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 10:49 AM
i'm just a bitter donkeys fan who got sick of people saying elway sucked because he couldn't win one (or worse, that he only won one because of davis), so i generally take stronger exception to the rings bit.

That's because people, for the most part, are unable to put things in context. It's another reason why the eye test is the only real way to evaluate football players. Everything else falls into place after that.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 10:57 AM
Champions are a great thing to accomplish, but there will always be an exception like Dan Marino. The dude was ten-twenty years ahead of his time and dominated. It wasn't his fault that his team got wiped out by the 49ers in the 80s. Everyone ran into the same result basically, ask John Elway.

Peyton Manning's one Super Bowl came from one of the worst stretches he has ever, ever had as a starting QB. He was downright awful throughout the AFC playoffs up until the 2nd half of the New England game. Then he beats Rex Grossman.

Dan Marino > Peyton Manning

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Manning's career, to me, is more like Jim Kelly's than anybody. And I don't think that's any coincidence, considering both were drafted and had their teams constructed by Bill Polian. Kelly was a brilliant passer, ran a no-huddle high octane offense, and had a GM who made sure he had a steady supply of top offensive talent around him at all times.

As unmatched, efficient, and consistent as he was during the regular season his performance in the playoffs was noticeably worse in the playoffs.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 11:05 AM
Champions are a great thing to accomplish, but there will always be an exception like Dan Marino. The dude was ten-twenty years ahead of his time and dominated. It wasn't his fault that his team got wiped out by the 49ers in the 80s. Everyone ran into the same result basically, ask John Elway.

Peyton Manning's one Super Bowl came from one of the worst stretches he has ever, ever had as a starting QB. He was downright awful throughout the AFC playoffs up until the 2nd half of the New England game. Then he beats Rex Grossman.

Dan Marino > Peyton Manning

Exactly, that's why you have to look at the entire body of postseason work and put it in context. Like Elway, Marino really didn't have jackshit to work with his entire career. The Marks brothers were a nice set of receivers, but that's basically all there was on that team for the entirety of his career.

I know these are just statistics, but in 18 career playoff games he completed 56% of his passes for 4500 yards, 32 touchdowns and 25 interceptions. That's pretty much on par with his regular season numbers. His record as a playoff QB, though, is 8-10.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 11:10 AM
Its not baseball. It's fantasy football. Fantasy football has ruined our perception of what a good football player really is.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 11:12 AM
Its not baseball. It's fantasy football. Fantasy football has ruined our perception of what a good football player really is.

Football died for me when I heard my friends (who are pretty damn knowledgeable about sports themselves) argue about Brady during the three-peat: "He's not that good, he's just really clutch." Which was right around the time we were just getting into fantasy football.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 11:16 AM
Football died for me when I heard my friends (who are pretty damn knowledgeable about sports themselves) argue about Brady during the three-peat: "He's not that good, he's just really clutch." Which was right around the time we were just getting into fantasy football.

I know people personally that say that about Eli. It's frustrating.

"dude!! only 28 touchdowns!!!11111"


People think Ben Roethlisberger isn't all that great for similar reasons. I'll take Ben over a lot of qbs people rank ahead of him.

AntoinCD
09-01-2010, 11:20 AM
I don't like the rings arguement if that's all people base it on. For instance I don't think Ben Roethlisberger should be near any top 5 QB list, but that's a personal opinion. How I would rate the QB that I would want is

It's the playoffs, your down by 2, the balls on the 20 yard line and there's two minutes left.

Who ya got?

Regular season QBs are fine and all but when it's crunch time that's when the great players step up.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 11:21 AM
I know people personally that say that about Eli. It's frustrating.

"dude!! only 28 touchdowns!!!11111"


People think Ben Roethlisberger isn't all that great for similar reasons. I'll take Ben over a lot of qbs people rank ahead of him.

I completely agree, and like both of those guys far more than most people do.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Eli is a far, far better road quarterback (statistically speaking, strictly) than when he's at the Meadowlands. There's a reason why neither the Jets or Giants have never had a consistent statistical machine at the Meadowlands. Same goes with the Bears in Chicago. The environment simply doesn't allow it to happen, and you can't construct your team around throwing the ball in those places.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 11:26 AM
I asked this earlier, but I didn't get an answer: how will the new Meadowlands Stadium impact passing games? Is it better, worse or the same as the wind tunnel that Giants Stadium used to be?

Also, I don't think Fantasy Football is inherently the problem. There have been those who have played for a long, long time and can appreciate the difference. For example, my league heavily favors receptions over big play guys when in reality it is the other way around generally. I think the problem BBD is alluding to is there are quite a few casual FF fans that have got on the bandwagon. Just five years ago you never heard anything about Fantasy sports on ESPN. Now it is everywhere. 23 Million now play. I doubt the percentage of know something fans vs. know nothing fans is about the same, fantasy or not.

LonghornsLegend
09-01-2010, 11:38 AM
Only things I didn't like:


Schaub is way too low, he's a fringe top 10 QB, injury knocks are there but dude can play QB. He needs some playoff games to help his resume but let's not ignore he's really good.


Carson Palmer being in the top 10 of a QB list makes me want to ignore the rest of it now matter what. Absolutely ridiculous.


Stafford is way too low, waaay low. He's talented as hell, and lower then Sanchez? Yea that makes sense. I guess were ranking QB's on how good the teams are around them.


The first 8 looks perfectly fine for me, I'd have Schaub at 9 and Eli at 10 to round it out.


How you would order that top 10 is nothing but preference but I think those would be the most legit top 10 QB's.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 11:47 AM
I asked this earlier, but I didn't get an answer: how will the new Meadowlands Stadium impact passing games? Is it better, worse or the same as the wind tunnel that Giants Stadium used to be?

Also, I don't think Fantasy Football is inherently the problem. There have been those who have played for a long, long time and can appreciate the difference. For example, my league heavily favors receptions over big play guys when in reality it is the other way around generally. I think the problem BBD is alluding to is there are quite a few casual FF fans that have got on the bandwagon. Just five years ago you never heard anything about Fantasy sports on ESPN. Now it is everywhere. 23 Million now play. I doubt the percentage of know something fans vs. know nothing fans is about the same, fantasy or not.

Sorry, I didn't see that post or else I wouldve responded to it.

The New Meadowlands is just as windy as the old one. The problem isn't necessarily the fact that there is wind, but how the wind swirls. That's what makes Giants stadium so difficult to throw in, you can't predict how the wind is gonna catch the ball. It's just a crapshoot.

The new stadium has swirling winds as well, some say the winds swirl more, and the hard part of it is because its a new stadium, nobody knows any patterns to the swirling. Eli said with Giants stadium, while you can never predict how the wind will catch the ball, after playing there for awhile you do learn eventually that in some situations some passes simply will not work.

But with the new stadium, he's going to have to learn that process all over again, bc the swirling won't behave the same.

I completely agree, and like both of those guys far more than most people do.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Eli is a far, far better road quarterback (statistically speaking, strictly) than when he's at the Meadowlands. There's a reason why neither the Jets or Giants have never had a consistent statistical machine at the Meadowlands. Same goes with the Bears in Chicago. The environment simply doesn't allow it to happen, and you can't construct your team around throwing the ball in those places.

This this and more this. Theres a reason why both clubs have struggled finding a franchise qb. When it gets cold in both Chicago and NJ, you just can't throw the ball at all. It's to a point where I personally favor the Giants being on the road in the playoffs opposed to having home field advantage. Home field in the playoffs actually hurts us more than it helps us.

Joe Montana looked like Chad Pennington post surgery every time he came to Giants stadium in the 80s. Even the best of the best struggle here.

Thats why no qb with questionable arm strength could ever be an entirely successful qb for the Giants or Jets. They just won't work over here.

AntoinCD
09-01-2010, 11:50 AM
This this and more this. Theres a reason why both clubs have struggled finding a franchise qb. When it gets cold in both Chicago and NJ, you just can't throw the ball at all. It's to a point where I personally favor the Giants being on the road in the playoffs opposed to having home field advantage. Home field in the playoffs actually hurts us more than it helps us.

This was evidenced when the Giants won the Superbowl three years ago. I think you were on the road throughout and Eli played pretty damn well

Shiver
09-01-2010, 11:50 AM
Nasty weather is one of the reasons why Brady is, to me, the best QB. We already have seen what stats he puts up in bad weather, with weapons, without weapons. We have only seen Manning and Brees play in warm weather, domes with teams that are offense-oriented.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 11:50 AM
i dunno, i feel like it happened just as much 8-9 years ago (before everyone on earth had a fantasy team and people generally thought i was a geek for having one) as it does now. though i DO think fantasy has given more of the casual fans a biased idea of what 'good' means.



see, and i've always thought roethlisberger gets overrated on the 'just wins' crap and the rings bit. i have a hard time buying that he's a great qb (though i do think he is good) based on what i've actually seen (notwithstanding the throw to holmes).

Ben is clutch. When I need a score, I want Brady, Eli, Ben, and to a lesser extent Rivers commanding my huddle. And at the end of the day, that's all you really want out of your qb. Everything else can be debated, but the true test of every qb is how he runs the 2 minute drill.

And those guys mentioned above run it to perfection.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 11:53 AM
This was evidenced when the Giants won the Superbowl three years ago. I think you were on the road throughout and Eli played pretty damn well

Yup. Eli pretty much plays well everywhere except NJ in the winter. But then again, nobody plays particularly well in NJ in the winter. Dallas was nice weather, GB was cold but not windy so he did well there too.

Sanchez learned the hard way. He was so bad in November and December it was like watching a different qb. He's going to have to learn how to play in NJ, which I think he will if he's given time.

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 11:55 AM
Nasty weather is one of the reasons why Brady is, to me, the best QB. We already have seen what stats he puts up in bad weather, with weapons, without weapons. We have only seen Manning and Brees play in warm weather, domes with teams that are offense-oriented.

I agree. People underestimate how much the elements play into performance sometimes.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 11:57 AM
Why is it that Green Bay has always had a dynamite passing game? Just Favre and Rodgers being exceptions to the rule, or is there no wind in Lambeau or what?

NY+Giants=NYG
09-01-2010, 11:57 AM
This was evidenced when the Giants won the Superbowl three years ago. I think you were on the road throughout and Eli played pretty damn well

Yeah..

@ TB
@ Dallas
@ GB
@ Arizona- against the Pats

wicket
09-01-2010, 12:00 PM
This is how I'd have it:

1-2. Brees/Manning in some order
3. Brady
4. Rivers
5. Rodgers
6-8. Manning/Roethlisberger/Favre in some order
9. Romo
10. Schaub

I think this is me as well

bigbluedefense
09-01-2010, 12:00 PM
Why is it that Green Bay has always had a dynamite passing game? Just Favre and Rodgers being exceptions to the rule, or is there no wind in Lambeau or what?

Well, both have rocket arms, that surely helps.

Its not necessarily just about wind, but how the wind moves. If its linear wind, you can sort of work around it. Also, they run WCOs (in theory). So the downfield passes of an Air Coryell system aren't really used in that environment, and its the deep passes that are effected the most.

Also look at the body build of their WRs. They generally draft big guys. Makes hitting your targets a little easier.

I think for the most part though, both of them having rocket arms is a bigger reason why it works. They can cut the wind with those lasers.

GB fans could offer us some insight to the wind out there.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Ok so when Matt Cassell came in and took over possibly the greatest offense of all time and failed to make playoffs and lost the division to the Dolphins, who the year before were one of the worst teams in history, that shows that Brady is worse than Manning?

Matt Cassell is currently a starting QB in the league. If another starting QB, even in the lower half of QBs in the league, played for the Colts with their weapons they would be successful. Not as successful as Manning but successful nonetheless.

Quick hypothetical question here, if the Colts traded for say Matt Moore and Manning went down week one, and Moore led the Colts to a 10-6 record. Does that disprove your theory that Manning is better?

I'm not neccessarily arguing that Manning isn't better or vice versa but your arguement is not the best way to make it

That would diminish Manning a bit in my book, yeah, but I doubt that would not happen because the Colts have a terrible offensive line, no running game, and an average defense. Give them an average QB and they are hovering around .500 (at best) and with any other QB they still aren't going to be as good as they are; including the likes of Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Rivers.

prock
09-01-2010, 12:05 PM
That would diminish Manning a bit in my book, yeah, but I doubt that would not happen because the Colts have a terrible offensive line, no running game, and an average defense. Give them an average QB and they are hovering around .500 (at best) and with any other QB they still aren't going to be as good as they are; including the likes of Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Rivers.

A terrible offensive line, no running game, and an average defense? Sounds like the Patriots.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:07 PM
I agree. People underestimate how much the elements play into performance sometimes.

Favre, Tarkenton, Marino, Young, Montana, Unitas, Kelly, Jurgensen; all some of the greatest statistical quarterbacks of all time, none played in a dome. NFL is started in the fall for a reason and that reason is because it will minimize the impact of weather. Pretty much every QB will only have to play 1-2 bad weather games per year, Manning included.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:09 PM
That would diminish Manning a bit in my book, yeah, but I doubt that would not happen because the Colts have a terrible offensive line, no running game, and an average defense. Give them an average QB and they are hovering around .500 (at best) and with any other QB they still aren't going to be as good as they are; including the likes of Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Rivers.

Okay, and the Pats finished three games above .500 against the easiest schedule in the league (they played the AFC and NFC West in their out of division games) after going undefeated the season before. They experienced a five game dropoff. A five game dropoff for the Colts (who average 12 wins a season) would put them at 7-9. That's hovering right around .500, which is exactly what you claim they would be. So you're essentially claiming the dropoff would be exactly the same if Manning went out.

That 11-5 record without Brady is incredibly misleading.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:11 PM
Tom Brady almost never gets sacked, but the Patriots line isn't that great. Just like the Colts, his ability to read, maneuver in the pocket and throw on time makes his O-Line better than it is. Matt Cassel is terrible at those things, hence the Patriots went from allowing the 18th most sacks (Brady), to the most (Cassel), to the 29th most sacks (Brady). That is not a coincidence.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:12 PM
Favre, Tarkenton, Marino, Young, Montana, Unitas, Kelly, Jurgensen; all some of the greatest statistical quarterbacks of all time, none played in a dome. NFL is started in the fall for a reason and that reason is because it will minimize the impact of weather. Pretty much every QB will only have to play 1-2 bad weather games per year, Manning included.


Miami and San Francisco are bad weather locations? Okay then.

Tarkenton, Kelly, Jurgensen put up many 40+ touchdown seasons? Okay then..

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:13 PM
A terrible offensive line, no running game, and an average defense? Sounds like the Patriots.

Is that a joke?

2009 Colts
Rushing yards - 32nd
Yards per rush - 30th
Points allowed - 8th
Yards allowed - 18th
Passing yards allowed - 14th
Rushing yards allowed - 24th

2009 Patriots
Rushing yards - 12th
Yards per rush - 21st
Points allowed - 5th
Yards allowed - 11th
Passing yards allowed - 12th
Rushing yards allowed - 13th

And offensive lines aren't even close. The Patriots have one of the best guard in a league, a Pro Bowl caliber center, a good right tackle,a solid guard, and an up and coming tackle. The Colts have an a Pro Bowl center, a decent right tackle, and a bunch of scrubs.

Forenci
09-01-2010, 12:13 PM
Ben is clutch. When I need a score, I want Brady, Eli, Ben, and to a lesser extent Rivers commanding my huddle. And at the end of the day, that's all you really want out of your qb. Everything else can be debated, but the true test of every qb is how he runs the 2 minute drill.

And those guys mentioned above run it to perfection.

I really think that argument is used too much, to be honest. I'm not saying it isn't important for a QB to have that ability to deter the psychological pressure that comes towards the end of games but isn't how a QB plays the other 90% of a game far more of a factor in determining an outcome of a game?

Don't get me wrong, I love Eli because of how clutch he is, but I don't like to over emphasize the last 3-4 minutes of a game to say how good or bad a QB is. I think Eli took the step of becoming a top 10 QB not because he was clutch but because when we let him pass the ball significantly through out the game (out of necessity) he was much improved over his first 2-3 years.

That's why I'm not a huge Big Ben fan. He's still a very good QB, top 10 no doubt, but I don't think he's anywhere close to guys like Brees, (Peyton) Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, etc. I still feel like he holds on the ball too long and that his ability to read defenses doesn't match a lot of the QB's in the league. I mean most of his big plays don't come from great reads, they come from the pocket breaking down (usually because he held on the ball too long) and him making a play outside the pocket and launching the ball deep.

To me it's only a matter of time until the younger QB's like Ryan, Flacco, Stafford surpass him as a quarterback.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:19 PM
Miami and San Francisco are bad weather locations? Okay then.

Tarkenton, Kelly, Jurgensen put up many 40+ touchdown seasons? Okay then..

You really think that the weather for the average game is that different in San Francisco then it is in New England? It isn't except for a couple of games towards the end of the season. Tarkenton and Jurgensen put up great numbers for their times periods and Kelly was top 10 in the league in touchdown passes for the majority of his seasons in a very run heavy offense.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:19 PM
His Hall of Fame argument is a lot more shaky than people generally think. Especially as you starting probing the more casual fans; my father thinks he is a lock, for example.

prock
09-01-2010, 12:20 PM
Is that a joke?

2009 Colts
Rushing yards - 32nd
Yards per rush - 30th
Points allowed - 8th
Yards allowed - 18th
Passing yards allowed - 14th
Rushing yards allowed - 24th

2009 Patriots
Rushing yards - 12th
Yards per rush - 21st
Points allowed - 5th
Yards allowed - 11th
Passing yards allowed - 12th
Rushing yards allowed - 13th

And offensive lines aren't even close. The Patriots have one of the best guard in a league, a Pro Bowl caliber center, a good right tackle,a solid guard, and an up and coming tackle. The Colts have an a Pro Bowl center, a decent right tackle, and a bunch of scrubs.

The Patriots have a better line, that's true. But how come your boy Cassel got sacked so much since there line is so good, as you claim? And the Patriots don't have a great running game. Leaning on general stats that group all games together really are irrelevant. There are a lot more factors than you give credit to.

GB12
09-01-2010, 12:20 PM
Why is it that Green Bay has always had a dynamite passing game? Just Favre and Rodgers being exceptions to the rule, or is there no wind in Lambeau or what?

Well for the past 18 years we've had a hall of fame QB and a QB that's already top 5 after two seasons as a starter. With QBs that good the wind isn't going to be much of an issue. There aren't crazy winds, but I'd imagine it's the same as the average outdoor stadium. Then again, since I started watching football I've never seen anyone other than Favre or Rodgers start for the Packers. It doesn't seem to be huge deal to opposing QBs on a weekly basis though. Occasionally there are days when it gets bad, but yeah I'd say it's about average.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:20 PM
I really think that argument is used too much, to be honest. I'm not saying it isn't important for a QB to have that ability to deter the psychological pressure that comes towards the end of games but isn't how a QB plays the other 90% of a game far more of a factor in determining an outcome of a game?

Don't get me wrong, I love Eli because of how clutch he is, but I don't like to over emphasize the last 3-4 minutes of a game to say how good or bad a QB is. I think Eli took the step of becoming a top 10 QB not because he was clutch but because when we let him pass the ball significantly through out the game (out of necessity) he was much improved over his first 2-3 years.

That's why I'm not a huge Big Ben fan. He's still a very good QB, top 10 no doubt, but I don't think he's anywhere close to guys like Brees, (Peyton) Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, etc. I still feel like he holds on the ball too long and that his ability to read defenses doesn't match a lot of the QB's in the league. I mean most of his big plays don't come from great reads, they come from the pocket breaking down (usually because he held on the ball too long) and him making a play outside the pocket and launching the ball deep.

To me it's only a matter of time until the younger QB's like Ryan, Flacco, Stafford surpass him as a quarterback.

Meh, just because he's unconventional doesn't mean he's not good. That's what made Roger Staubach one of the most dangerous quarterbacks of all time. Had he not spent what would have been the first four years of his career in Vietnam, he'd probably be ranked right up there with Montana and Unitas.

GB12
09-01-2010, 12:23 PM
His Hall of Fame argument is a lot more shaky than people generally think. Especially as you starting probing the more casual fans; my father thinks he is a lock, for example.

Who, Peyton Manning? If so you are crazy. Say what you want about where he player or whatever, but there's no ******* way that Peyton Manning is kept out of the Hall of Fame. Not only is he a lock, but hes' a first ballot lock.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:23 PM
Read post directly two posts above mine. Context sir, context.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:26 PM
i dunno, i've just never gotten the clutch thing from ben. i don't tend to see a lot of pittsburgh games, so maybe it's just that i haven't seen enough of him in the late game.

off-topic, slightly: though, for whatever reason, all this made me think of kurt warner, and how his poor post season performances arent' typically held against him. outside of a shootout in minnesota, he was generally average at best in the 99-00 playoffs, and the offense itself was substantially worse. same story the following year. and he was barely a game manager in the 2001 playoffs. he played well in 2008 in the NFCC and super bowl, but was again mediocre in the prior two games. why do we give this guy a pass? because he had some big numbers in three seasons? because he took some stacked teams to the playoffs, then failed to produce with those teams? it's interesting to me where the idea of what a good qb should be breaks down.

His Hall of Fame argument is a lot more shaky than people generally think. Especially as you starting probing the more casual fans; my father thinks he is a lock, for example.

I'm with you two, in that I think his HoF argument is far, far more shaky than people realize. But I've always been the belief that if you hesitate for a second on whether a guy is a Hall of Famer, then he probably isn't one.

The argument for him, I think, has far more to do with his story. The "grocery bagger" thing has been hyperbolized (is that a word?) to no end. Although, if you combine that with how he's been the catalyst to taking two historically bad franchises with no direction to the Superbowl, and he becomes one of those "guys you can't tell the story of the NFL without" type of players.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:28 PM
You really think that the weather for the average game is that different in San Francisco then it is in New England? It isn't except for a couple of games towards the end of the season. Tarkenton and Jurgensen put up great numbers for their times periods and Kelly was top 10 in the league in touchdown passes for the majority of his seasons in a very run heavy offense.


1. Yes, playing in Miami and San Francisco is much better than New England up to half of the season.

2. You completely missed my entire line of reasoning. Good job. My point is weapons and weather make the difference between a QB A going for 4,000 yards and 28 touchdowns and QB B that goes for 4,500 yards and 35 touchdowns. But that still, looking at location/schedule/team factors that there are situations in which QB A is the superior player.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:28 PM
The Patriots have a better line, that's true. But how come your boy Cassel got sacked so much since there line is so good, as you claim? And the Patriots don't have a great running game. Leaning on general stats that group all games together really are irrelevant. There are a lot more factors than you give credit to.

Because while Brady is average when it comes to pocket presence and getting rid of the ball on time, Cassel is easily one of the worst in the league. Cassel is definitely not my boy, either, he is a mediocre QB made to look good.

I'll give you that stats don't tell the whole story but if anyone would like to argue that the Colts have a better defense and running game than the Patriots, I would like to hear it.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:30 PM
Average when it comes to pocket presence? WTF, what games are you watching? That is the first thing someone who breaks down the film will tell you that Brady is great at.

GB12
09-01-2010, 12:31 PM
Read post directly two posts above mine. Context sir, context.Damn, didn't even see njx9's post. Was following the Manning debate and then saw your post. That makes a lot more sense then.

Two seasons ago people were talking about Kurt Warner in the Hall of Fame, and I was 100% against it. Then he got to the Super Bowl and I was still against it, but loosening up a littlle. If he won I think he'd be in. With another good season last year I now think he has a shot. It's still an outside shot though and I think he should be kept out.

prock
09-01-2010, 12:31 PM
Because while Brady is average when it comes to pocket presence and getting rid of the ball on time, Cassel is easily one of the worst in the league. Cassel is definitely not my boy, either, he is a mediocre QB made to look good.

I'll give you that stats don't tell the whole story but if anyone would like to argue that the Colts have a better defense and running game than the Patriots, I would like to hear it.

Brady is average in pocket presence and getting rid of the ball on time? Good one.

I never said they were better, I said they weren't good either. Reading comprehension is a valuable commodity in today's business world.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-01-2010, 12:35 PM
His Hall of Fame argument is a lot more shaky than people generally think. Especially as you starting probing the more casual fans; my father thinks he is a lock, for example.

I agree with this. I love Kurt Warner, but the guy was really mediocre(at best) outside of like, 4 years. And not a 4-year span either, 4 years taken from throughout his career. I don't get why people are so high on Warner, who had no consistency or longevity, and so down on Terrell Davis, who was flat out dominant before getting hurt. He had no longevity in a position not known for longevity while Warner has no longevity in a position known for ridiculous longevity.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:36 PM
1. Yes, playing in Miami and San Francisco is much better than New England up to half of the season.

You're wrong, it depends much more on your schedule that anything else. Last year, for example, Brady played 3 games in what could be considered windy weather and 2 in precipitation while Manning played 2 in windy and 2 in precipitation. Philip Rivers played 2 in windy weather and Chad Henne played 4 (in only 14 starts), for comparison. Over the course of a season the weather makes almost no difference because so many games are played but when looked at over the course of a career weather is a nonfactor.

2. You completely missed my entire line of reasoning. Good job. My point is weapons and weather make the difference between a QB A going for 4,000 yards and 28 touchdowns and QB B that goes for 4,500 yards and 35 touchdowns. But that still, looking at location/schedule/team factors that there are situations in which QB A is the superior player.

Weapons make a huge difference but, like I said, weather doesn't. Every QB plays 1 or 2 bad weather games a year and in averages out for all of them. If I had to assign a percentage to how much of a factor weather is when looking at a quarterbacks stats for a season it would be <5%.

ThePudge
09-01-2010, 12:36 PM
Only things I didn't like:


Schaub is way too low, he's a fringe top 10 QB, injury knocks are there but dude can play QB. He needs some playoff games to help his resume but let's not ignore he's really good.


Carson Palmer being in the top 10 of a QB list makes me want to ignore the rest of it now matter what. Absolutely ridiculous.


Stafford is way too low, waaay low. He's talented as hell, and lower then Sanchez? Yea that makes sense. I guess were ranking QB's on how good the teams are around them.


The first 8 looks perfectly fine for me, I'd have Schaub at 9 and Eli at 10 to round it out.


How you would order that top 10 is nothing but preference but I think those would be the most legit top 10 QB's.

A lot of this list is dependent on the weapons each team has & what the ranking are expected to look like during/after THIS season, not last season. That said, Mark Sanchez over Stafford has a lot to do with the amount of weapons he has in New York & his chances to put wins up for his team. I would say Stafford is the better player as well (see: my list) but that's not what it looks like John Clayton was doing.

Now, I bring you a rant.....

The disrespect Carson Palmer gets is incredible on this board in some places. I don't know how many of those Top 10 QBs could succeed given a strictly run-blocking OL, one receiver, and no Tight Ends. Still, Palmer put up 20+ Tds and protected the ball pretty well for the most part. The Bengals were a running team last year due to their personnel & division. This new style forced Palmer to move from Game-breaker to game manager, a role he accepted and excelled in. He won games for his team.

Funny how you ask the casual fan who the most indispensable Bengals player, they'll tell you Cedric Benson. That's absolute ********, Ced's the man but without Palmer the Bengals don't win 6 games a year ago. Palmer put the team on his back so many times a year ago & won most of our divisional games in the waning moments. The Bengals plan: feed Ced, stay in the game, manage the clock, then at the end let Carson win the game. That was the plan & that's the plan the Bengals executed, it's not a plan that really allows for gaudy statistics.

Palmer couldn't throw the deep ball a year ago. This was not due to deteriorating arm strength, but a severe lack of vertical personnel outside of Chris Henry who was hurt early in the season.

Now, lets look at what's happened to the roster... The team added T.O. to re-introduce the big play element back into the offense, they added a more reliable slot receiver (than Andre Caldwell who suffered from drops/fumbles), and went out & got an absolute specimen at Tight End in Jermaine Gresham. Palmer NEVER in his career has had a TE remotely close to this guy. Gresham will be used downfield, threatening the seam, and he will be used as one of Palmer's primary check-down options. It also appears as if Cincy will be running more no-huddle in 10', something that worked extremely well for them in 05' but something they've lacked the personnel to do ever since.

This passing game just gained everything it had lacked a year ago. Read that last statement until it sinks in, some people here just don't seem to understand it & it's not hard to see why... not everyone watches every Bengals game.

The memories that stick most in people's minds are the Week 17 loss to the Jets & the playoff loss to the Jets, Palmer's two worst games. If Carson had been on, we may have won that last game... If the team could stop the run we may have had a chance too. I won't cover up the FACT that Palmer played a ****** game there, it was a shame, it was his worst performance all year. He said afterwards that his arm was fatigued and that he'd be changing the way he prepares for the season in 2010.

I could be eating crow at the end of the season and sure as a bear shits in the woods, I would do just that; however, I think it's very fair to project a much bigger year from Carson in 10' with a much improved supporting cast (especially with the deep-ball re-introduced.) I think people harp on a lot of the bad things Carson did at the end of last season/playoffs without giving him the credit he's due for winning games by being one of the league's best game-managers. So, to finish my rant, I'll be right there with you at the end of the season if Palmer doesn't play well.. but you fail to acknowledge that this team has just given him the chance he needed a year ago to succeed & put up #'s.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:41 PM
Average when it comes to pocket presence? WTF, what games are you watching? That is the first thing someone who breaks down the film will tell you that Brady is great at.

Brady is average in pocket presence and getting rid of the ball on time? Good one.

I never said they were better, I said they weren't good either. Reading comprehension is a valuable commodity in today's business world.

Well he is great at getting rid of the ball on time, mostly due to wide open receivers, but I have always said that his pocket presence is vastly overrated. The play where he got injured is a perfect example. Pollard is literally on the ground right in front of him and Brady is oblivious to it and steps into the throw anyway. If he had seen or felt him there then he would have moved. It is also why he fumbles so much when he is sacked, because he is not aware of the pressure like someone like Manning so he doesn't tighten he grip on the ball.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:42 PM
Brady is average in pocket presence and getting rid of the ball on time? Good one.

I never said they were better, I said they weren't good either. Reading comprehension is a valuable commodity in today's business world.

His pocket presence has slipped a little since the injury, but that was to be expected anyways. Especially when you consider than his line is getting older and slowing down.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-01-2010, 12:42 PM
The disrespect Carson Palmer gets is incredible on this board in some places. I don't know how many of those Top 10 QBs could succeed given a strictly run-blocking OL, one receiver, and no Tight Ends. Still, Palmer put up 20+ Tds and protected the ball pretty well for the most part. The Bengals were a running team last year due to their personnel & division. This new style forced Palmer to move from Game-breaker to game manager, a role he accepted and excelled in. He won games for his team.

Funny how you ask the casual fan who the most indispensable Bengals player, they'll tell you Cedric Benson. That's absolute ********, Ced's the man but without Palmer the Bengals don't win 6 games a year ago. Palmer put the team on his back so many times a year ago & won most of our divisional games in the waning moments. The Bengals plan: feed Ced, stay in the game, manage the clock, then at the end let Carson win the game. That was the plan & that's the plan the Bengals executed, it's not a plan that really allows for gaudy statistics.



I agree with that. I remember it pretty well. It seemed like the entire first half of the year, the Bengals were winning games in the final 2 minutes. would have beat Denver, too, if it weren't for that insane Stokely play. Bengals couldn't move the ball the whole game until Palmer got it going for that last drive.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:45 PM
Well he is great at getting rid of the ball on time, mostly due to wide open receivers, but I have always said that his pocket presence is vastly overrated. The play where he got injured is a perfect example. Pollard is literally on the ground right in front of him and Brady is oblivious to it and steps into the throw anyway. If he had seen or felt him there then he would have moved. It is also why he fumbles so much when he is sacked, because he is not aware of the pressure like someone like Manning so he doesn't tighten he grip on the ball.

I think it has far more to do with Manning being a ******* ***** and diving to the ground conceding the sack the second he sees a defender coming at him instead of taking the hit and making a play.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 12:46 PM
The reason he stepped into that play by Pollard was because he had Randy Moss open down-field. He did what your supposed to do as a QB. Just like Carson Palmer's knee was knocked out on a big pass play deep down field that he delived.

ThePudge
09-01-2010, 12:49 PM
I agree with that. I remember it pretty well. It seemed like the entire first half of the year, the Bengals were winning games in the final 2 minutes. would have beat Denver, too, if it weren't for that insane Stokely play. Bengals couldn't move the ball the whole game until Palmer got it going for that last drive.

Yea, he drove 91 yards & left the Broncos with about :35 seconds if I remember correctly. He didn't do it all game, but he got it done in crunch time. Unfortunately for us, that one didn't go our way. Still, its a pretty good indication of what Palmer did LATE in games a year ago.

He took his lumps against New York & Minnesota though, but what offenses didn't... that Jets pass D was ungodly last year.

I'm just taking a wait-and-see approach with Palmer this year, but I fully expect 25+ Td's & something in the realm of 4,000 yards.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 12:52 PM
I think it has far more to do with Manning being a ******* ***** and diving to the ground conceding the sack the second he sees a defender coming at him instead of taking the hit and making a play.

The reason he stepped into that play by Pollard was because he had Randy Moss open down-field. He did what your supposed to do as a QB. Just like Carson Palmer's knee was knocked out on a big pass play deep down field that he delived.

Even if that was the only reason, which is a stretch and really unknowable, that makes him an idiot. People can call Manning a punk or wimp (or worse adjectives that I am not sure are allowed to be posted) all they want but he is smart to not take an unnecessary hit. The take a hit like that 5 minutes into the first game of the season is moronic to say the least.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 12:56 PM
Even if that was the only reason, which is a stretch and really unknowable, that makes him an idiot. People can call Manning a punk or wimp (or worse adjectives that I am not sure are allowed to be posted) all they want but he is smart to not take an unnecessary hit. The take a hit like that 5 minutes into the first game of the season is moronic to say the least.

Which is the reason why he's not the best, or will never be the G.O.A.T. It's indicative and symbolic of his entire career. When things aren't picture perfect and going exactly as planned, he concedes defeat.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:02 PM
Which is the reason why he's not the best, or will never be the G.O.A.T. It's indicative and symbolic of his entire career. When things aren't picture perfect and going exactly as planned, he concedes defeat.

Which must be why he has more 4th quarter comebacks than Brady since 2001, even if you take out 2008 for Manning

P-L
09-01-2010, 01:03 PM
You really think that the weather for the average game is that different in San Francisco then it is in New England? It isn't except for a couple of games towards the end of the season. Tarkenton and Jurgensen put up great numbers for their times periods and Kelly was top 10 in the league in touchdown passes for the majority of his seasons in a very run heavy offense.
In October (only one month into the season) the average temperature in Boston is in the 50's with an average of 3.8 inches of precipitation. In October the average temperature in San Francisco is in the high 60's with an average of 1.19 inches of precipitation. Even if you just look at September, compare the amount of rain Boston receives to that of San Francisco. The difference is massive.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 01:05 PM
Which must be why he has more 4th quarter comebacks than Brady since 2001 (even if you take out 2008)

I'm not sure how clear I can make this,

BUT I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING **** ABOUT ANYTHING PEYTON MANNING HAS DONE/WILL DO IN THE REGULAR SEASON. I HAVEN'T GIVEN A ****, AND I WILL CONTINUE NOT TO GIVE A ****. HE. IS. MR. SEPTEMBER.

I don't care that he was able to beat ******* Miami in October despite only have the ball for less than a quarter. Or that he had the greatest comeback ever on MNF against a Bucs team that didn't make the playoffs that year. I care far more about him mustering up only 7 points in the final three quarters of the Superbowl, despite having more yards and a greater time of possession than the Saints. And then throwing the game losing interception on top of it.

It's the same ******* story every year with the guy. He's great in the regular season. I get it. Keep giving him those NFL MVP awards. In the season that matters, he's a .500 quarterback whose performance drops off substantially.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 01:07 PM
too many posts to quote, but i don't buy for one second that brady ever had tremendous pocket presence. denver, for years, showed that you could beat him easily and consistently by getting pressure. he routinely failed to deliver the ball and routinely made poor decisions when faced with any blitzing whatsoever. the pocket presence crap is pure revisionism, and people forgetting that he used to have a pretty **** good o-line.


No ****. Every single QB in the history of the NFL could be beaten easily by consistent pressure. There is nothing to be 'shown,' it is literally every defense's number one objective.

P-L
09-01-2010, 01:10 PM
Which must be why he has more 4th quarter comebacks than Brady since 2001 (even if you take out 2008)
Define 4th quarter comeback, please. If my team is down 17-21 at the end of the third but we are inside the opponent's red zone and we score a TD with 13:30 left in 4th quarter and hold on to win 24-21, is that a 4th quarter comeback? If I put my team up 34-31 with 2:00 to go in the game but on the following drive my defense gives up a 75 screen pass for a TD and we lose 38-34, do I still get credit for my 4th quarter comeback?

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:12 PM
In October (only one month into the season) the average temperature in Boston is in the 50's with an average of 3.8 inches of precipitation. In October the average temperature in San Francisco is in the high 60's with an average of 1.19 inches of precipitation. Even if you just look at September, compare the amount of rain Boston receives to that of San Francisco. The difference is massive.

Spread out over a month the difference is not massive at all and that doesn't even show what the weather was like on gameday. Just watch the games this year, or go back and look at weather reports for games for the past few years if you have the time, and you will see that every QB plays basically the same amount of bad weather games per year. And cold with no rain/snow =/= bad weather. I prefer to play in the cold, personally.

I'm not sure how clear I can make this,

BUT I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING **** ABOUT ANYTHING PEYTON MANNING HAS DONE/WILL DO IN THE REGULAR SEASON. I HAVEN'T GIVEN A ****, AND I WILL CONTINUE NOT TO GIVE A ****. HE. IS. MR. SEPTEMBER. HE IS A FAR WORSE PLAYER AGAINST THE TOP COMPETITION THAN HE IS IN SEPTEMBER IN HIS LITTLE DOME.

Both Manning and Brady have played 18 playoff games

395/637 (62%), 4108 yards, 6.5 yards per attempt, 28 TD, 15 INT, 85.5 Rating

435/692 (62.9%), 5164 yards, 7.5 yards per attempt, 28 TD, 19 INT, 87.6 Rating

Shiver
09-01-2010, 01:16 PM
Manning's post-season games are horribly uneven. He had a few monster games against KC and Denver, without those his stats are horrible. But I guess we like broad, unspecific statistics around here.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:17 PM
Define 4th quarter comeback, please. If my team is down 17-21 at the end of the third but we are inside the opponent's red zone and we score a TD with 13:30 left in 4th quarter and hold on to win 24-21, is that a 4th quarter comeback? If I put my team up 34-31 with 2:00 to go in the game but on the following drive my defense gives up a 75 screen pass for a TD and we lose 38-34, do I still get credit for my 4th quarter comeback?

Yes to the first and no to the second, though I don't see why the first wouldn't be included and the second rarely happens. Maybe I should say game winning drives, drives that put your team ahead when they were behind or tied in the 4th quarter. Manning has more of those as well.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:20 PM
Manning's post-season games are horribly uneven. He had a few monster games against KC and Denver, without those his stats are horrible. But I guess we like broad, unspecific statistics around here.

And taking out Brady's best games in the playoffs won't hurt his numbers?

P-L
09-01-2010, 01:22 PM
Glad you brought stats into the argument, but you left out some context. Tom Brady has been very consistent throughout his playoff career. Those numbers from Tom are what you know you're going to get from him. On the other hand, 9 of Manning's 28 TD passes came in two games against the Broncos in 2003 and 2004. Look at Manning's numbers outside of those two games that have padded his playoff stats, they are extremely average.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 01:26 PM
Spread out over a month the difference is not massive at all and that doesn't even show what the weather was like on gameday. Just watch the games this year, or go back and look at weather reports for games for the past few years if you have the time, and you will see that every QB plays basically the same amount of bad weather games per year. And cold with no rain/snow =/= bad weather. I prefer to play in the cold, personally.



Both Manning and Brady have played 18 playoff games

395/637 (62%), 4108 yards, 6.5 yards per attempt, 28 TD, 15 INT, 85.5 Rating

435/692 (62.9%), 5164 yards, 7.5 yards per attempt, 28 TD, 19 INT, 87.6 Rating

Which still represents a substantial dropoff from his regular season numbers, accompanied with a huge dropoff in his winning percentage from the regular season, so I don't know what you're really arguing.

One guy pretty much stays on course with his regular season numbers and wins more games in the postseason. The other one sees his numbers drop off substantially (especially TD:INT ratio) and loses at a far more rapid rate. Cool.

It all really comes down to the eyeball test, though. Manning is a panicked, flailing shell of himself in the playoffs, whereas Brady operates like he's got ******* icewater in his veins. Same goes with Brees' performance in this past postseason.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:29 PM
Glad you brought stats into the argument, but you left out some context. Tom Brady has been very consistent throughout his playoff career. Those numbers from Tom are what you know you're going to get from him. On the other hand, 9 of Manning's 28 TD passes came in two games against the Broncos in 2003 and 2004. Look at Manning's numbers outside of those two games that have padded his playoff stats, they are extremely average.

Not recently. For their last 6 playoff games Manning has 11 touchdowns to 5 interceptions and only one multiple interception game (both came on tipped passes and he threw for 400 yards and 3 touchdowns). Brady has 11 touchdowns to 10 interceptions and 3 multiple interception games (all with 3 interceptions). They are both 3-3. Ever since the Patriots defense went from elite to only pretty good, honestly, Brady has not performed all too well in the playoffs.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:36 PM
Which still represents a substantial dropoff from his regular season numbers, accompanied with a huge dropoff in his winning percentage from the regular season, so I don't know what you're really arguing.

One guy pretty much stays on course with his regular season numbers and wins more games in the postseason. The other one sees his numbers drop off substantially (especially TD:INT ratio) and loses at a far more rapid rate. Cool.

It all really comes down to the eyeball test, though. Manning is a panicked, flailing shell of himself in the playoffs, whereas Brady operates like he's got ******* icewater in his veins.

So Manning is worse because he is a lot better in the regular season but just as as good in the postseason? I also don't get the icewater in his veins thing but whatever. He had one game winning field goal drive in a game where he only threw for 145 yards. His only truly great postseason performance was against the Panthers, and that one against the Jags.

P-L
09-01-2010, 01:37 PM
Yes to the first and no to the second, though I don't see why the first wouldn't be included and the second rarely happens. Maybe I should say game winning drives, drives that put your team ahead when they were behind or tied in the 4th quarter. Manning has more of those as well.9 years, 16 game each. That's 144 games for each player. I'm sure there has been at least a couple blown late scoring drives. Also, do you have a link for these stats? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see confirmation.


And taking out Brady's best games in the playoffs won't hurt his numbers?
Let's see. This is after we remove both player's two best playoff performances.
354/582 (60.8%), 3645 yards, 6.3 yards per attempt, 22 TD, 15 INT, 81.2 Rating

386/633 (60.9%), 4329 yards, 6.8 yards per attempt, 19 TD, 18 INT, 79.6 Rating

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Not recently. For their last 6 playoff games Manning has 11 touchdowns to 5 interceptions and only one multiple interception game (both came on tipped passes and he threw for 400 yards and 3 touchdowns). Brady has 11 touchdowns to 10 interceptions and 3 multiple interception games (all with 3 interceptions). They are both 3-3. Ever since the Patriots defense went from elite to only pretty good, honestly, Brady has not performed all too well in the playoffs.

So Brady used to be far superior to him, and they've been pretty much even in the last three years. They both made it to a Superbowl and lost a game they were favored in. Since said loss, Brady has also missed a season to injury and played another season at what looked to be around 80%. I still fail to see how that propels Manning ahead of him.

I will laugh when Brady has another FU Year this season (contract year for him and Moss) and everyone will rushing to put him back atop the mountain like they did during the 2007 season.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 01:42 PM
Also two of Brady's best games have been in the Super Bowl, not divisional playoff games against the Broncos and Chiefs defenses.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:45 PM
9 years, 16 game each. That's 144 games for each player. I'm sure there has been at least a couple blown late scoring drives. Also, do you have a link for these stats? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see confirmation.

Pro Football Reference

Let's see. This is after we remove both player's two best playoff performances.
354/582 (60.8%), 3645 yards, 6.3 yards per attempt, 22 TD, 15 INT, 81.2 Rating

386/633 (60.9%), 4329 yards, 6.8 yards per attempt, 19 TD, 18 INT, 79.6 Rating

I could do the same thing and take out their 2 worse games.

382/607 (63%), 4659 yards, 7.7 yards per attempt, 26 TD, 12 INT, 92.3 QB rating

345/544 (63%), 3674 yards, 6.7 yards per attempt, 24 TD, 9 INT, 90.8 QB Rating

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 01:48 PM
Also two of Brady's best games have been in the Super Bowl, not divisional playoff games against the Broncos and Chiefs defenses.

Brady's two best postseason games are the Super Bowl against Carolina (9th in passing yards allowed that year) and 2007 against the Jagas (15th) while Manning's game in 2003 and 2004 against the Broncos (6th both years).

Ravens1991
09-01-2010, 02:02 PM
I'm more curious to know how the following guys will shape up in the coming years:

Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Chad Henne
Sam Bradford
Mark Sanchez
Matt Stafford


Flacco is a more mobile, less douchebag version of Ben, Matt Ryan is almost identical to Eli so far, its scary how similar they are. Henne is slept on, he's like a poor man's Flacco, Stafford is like Cutler.

I can't think of any analogies for Sanchez and Bradford yet.

I am curious to see how those guys pan out and how they rank out in the coming years.


Jaws is on Flaccos nuts in this article http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2010/09/01/jaworski-flacco-could-be-mvp/

saying he is a legit MVP candidate and


"“Outside the numbers, I’m not sure there was a better quarterback in the league last year than Joe Flacco,” said Jaworski

That doesnt even make sense but it sounds good.

Forenci
09-01-2010, 02:08 PM
Meh, just because he's unconventional doesn't mean he's not good. That's what made Roger Staubach one of the most dangerous quarterbacks of all time. Had he not spent what would have been the first four years of his career in Vietnam, he'd probably be ranked right up there with Montana and Unitas.

I said he was a top 10 QB, which is still very good. I just don't think he comes close to guys like Rivers, Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc. He's not a gimmick, but at the end of the day I feel like his lack of intelligence and ability to make the reads elite QB's separate him from the cream of the crop.

Nor do I think he comes anywhere close to Roger Staubach.

A Perfect Score
09-01-2010, 02:08 PM
My name is APS, and I support the pro Tom Brady argument.

J-Mike88
09-01-2010, 02:13 PM
Most overrated QB:
Most underrated QB:
QB that has the brightest future:
Young QB that will turn into a David Carr-like bust:

?

wonderbredd24
09-01-2010, 02:19 PM
Most overrated QB: Peyton Manning
Most underrated QB: Evidently, it's Drew Brees
QB with the brightest future: Matthew Stafford
Young QB that will turn into a David Carr-like bust:Mark Sanchez

BigBanger
09-01-2010, 02:25 PM
1. Tom Brady, New England
- I don't care what anyone says. He is the epitome of what you want in a QB. 3 Super Bowl rings in 4 Super Bowl appearances. He holds the single season TD record and has been über-productive ever since he had a legit #1 WR. He is Joe Montana of the 21st century. He just has a stronger arm. Simply the best QB of all-time. The guy is going to come back from his injury and regain the #1 QB status most gave him when he threw for 50 TDs.

2. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay
- Most probably think this too high, but at this point in time, there are few QBs in the NFL that can move the ball down the field as well as him. An improving arm, incredible accuracy and Rodgers is now starting to show the ability to simply be unconscious in 4th QT and close game situations, I think the sky is the limit. I think his potential is so unreal that we are just starting to see the tip of the iceberg. He will win at least one Super Bowl in the near future.

3. Drew Brees, New Orleans
- With his Super Bowl win over Peyton Manning, I think Brees jumped ahead of the best regular season QB of all-time. Brees is simply amazing and makes some of the most ridiculous reads of any QB in the NFL. Great production and makes a no-name cast of receivers into highly productive players.

4. Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts
- If we were just talking about regular season, then Peyton is #1 and there is no doubt about it. If I'm ignoring the future then he's surely ahead of Aaron Rodgers. The most cerebral QB in the NFL, but has consistently had early exits in the playoffs. Most pass the buck off to the Colts defense and whatnot, but Manning has been less than spectacular in the biggest games. For his rather pedestrian playoff record, he drops a little on my rankings. Should not be an insult, the guy is one of the all-time greats. These top 4 QBs play the position as well as it can be played.

5. Philip Rivers, San Diego
- Rivers is an incredible leader with tons of heart and emotion. Injuries to himself and his best players around him in the biggest games have made things much harder for him. With that said, the guy is one of the best QBs in the post season and in late game situations. Extremely productive. One of the best young talents at the position.

6. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
- Could probably be higher on this list, but he's going to miss half the season because he can't keep his ***** out of drunk college girls. The guy is a two-time Super Bowl champion and played out of his mind in his second Super Bowl win. People tend to forget that the game winning TD against Arizona was one of the greatest drives in the history of the game (by far the best I've seen in Pro Football). Big Ben is the only QB in the NFL that can do what he does. An unreal talent, but he has a lot of complications off the field that have negatively effected his performance on the field. He needs to grow up. He should be in the top 5. If he stays out of trouble, then he'll bounce back just fine.


7. Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys
- The excuses are over. Romo now has an emerging #1 WR with a potential great young WR in Dez Bryant. They have one of the best front 7s on defense in all of football. Romo just has to finish a season strong and play better late in the season/post season. Makes plays happen out of nothing and is similar to Big Ben in that regard. Elite QB production. The best days may be ahead of him. Tends to get bashed a little too much, but he plays for the most overrated team in the NFL.


At this point in time, those are the 7 elite QBs in the NFL.



Brett Favre, Minnesota Vikings
- Favre is coming off his best season of his career, and that is saying something. With that said, his ankle injury is not a joke and it is greatly hampering his mobility in the pocket. I think the Vikings are going to be for a rude awakening and I don't think Favre makes it through the entire season without injury. One of the great QBs in the game, but it really is time to call it quits. I think that will be realized with a poor, injury plagued season.


I think Matthew Stafford is quickly going to be a big part that aids in turning the Lions franchise around. I think by the end of his third season, he'll be in elite group, or on the cusp. One of my favorite QBs prospects of all-time.

abaddon41_80
09-01-2010, 02:27 PM
Most overrated QB: Ben Roethlisberger - I have seen him ranked in the top 5 and that is just crazy. I am definitely taking Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers, and Brady over him and Romo and Favre are maybes as well.

Honorable mention: Matt Schaub

Most underrated QB: Matt Hasselbeck (healthy) - The past two years he has been playing injured and has played poorly because of it. If he is actually fully healthy he is a lot better than people give him credit for.

Honorable Mention: Kyle Orton

QB that has the brightest future: Joe Flacco - I have liked what I have seen from him a lot and the Ravens are building a scary good offense around him

Honorable Mention: Josh Freeman

Young QB that will turn into a David Carr-like bust: Mark Sanchez

Fat_Actor
09-01-2010, 03:50 PM
Looks like Josh Freeman sucks and will be a bust. Oh well guess we can get Jake Locker next year.

Splat
09-01-2010, 03:56 PM
Most overrated QB: Peyton Manning
Most underrated QB: Evidently, it's Drew Brees
QB with the brightest future: Matthew Stafford
Young QB that will turn into a David Carr-like bust:Mark Sanchez

Drew Brees is not underrated every one is more then aware how good he is, just because some might not have him #1 doesn't make him underrated he is in every sane persons top 2 or 3.

prock
09-01-2010, 03:57 PM
Overrated: Big Ben
Underrated: Matt Shaub
Brightest Future: Stafford
Bust: Freeman/Sanchez

tjsunstein
09-01-2010, 03:58 PM
Most overrated QB: Ben Roethlisberger
Most underrated QB: Tony Romo; Carson Palmer
QB that has the brightest future: From this point on, I wouldn't take anyone else but Aaron Rodgers.
Young QB that will turn into a David Carr-like bust: Mark Sanchez will never be worth that fifth overall pick, in my opinion.

San Diego Chicken
09-01-2010, 04:03 PM
Judging from Clayton's list, Matt Moore is pretty underrated. The guy played very well last year.

Too many are down on Sanchez too, the guy already has two playoff wins under his belt, and have we already forgotten about his performance in the AFC championship?

Splat
09-01-2010, 04:06 PM
Judging from Clayton's list, Matt Moore is pretty underrated. The guy played very well last year.

Judging from the preseason last year could have very well been a fluke.

CC.SD
09-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Looks like I'm the only one left who thinks Bradford's shoulder won't hold up.

tjsunstein
09-01-2010, 04:11 PM
Looks like I'm the only one left who thinks Bradford's shoulder won't hold up.
I would have put Bradford in there if there weren't such high expectations for Sanchez's Jets. Bradford seems like too easy of a target, more than Stafford or Sanchez or Freeman. Thrown on an awful team that just lost their '#1 WR' with serious shoulder surgery not too far behind him.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 04:14 PM
Looks like I'm the only one left who thinks Bradford's shoulder won't hold up.

I don't see why it wouldn't. Brees' shoulder is just fine, and the hits and injuries they suffered were incredibly similar.

People make such a big deal out of it because he came back and re-injured it. He should have just had the surgery as early as possible and completely rehabilitated it.

Like people said in the McFadden thread: he was supposed to be the healthy prospect, while Adrian Peterson was supposed to be the oft-injured one. Injuries are an incredibly difficult thing to project, and unless there's a ridiculous history of chronic injury or a degenerative condition (like Marcus McNeil's back), it's generally just a bunch of wild speculation.

hockey619
09-01-2010, 04:15 PM
I said he was a top 10 QB, which is still very good. I just don't think he comes close to guys like Rivers, Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc. He's not a gimmick, but at the end of the day I feel like his lack of intelligence and ability to make the reads elite QB's separate him from the cream of the crop.

Nor do I think he comes anywhere close to Roger Staubach.


Who is it you guys are talking about?
sorry i looked but couldnt find it for some reason

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Who is it you guys are talking about?
sorry i looked but couldnt find it for some reason

Ben Rapistbeergut.

hockey619
09-01-2010, 04:19 PM
and while i was one of the highest on Sanchez predraft on these boards and still am, i see a slight cause for alarm due to one instance in particular: that scene on hard knocks where he was in the office and they were telling him "you know what you need to do better?" and he responded by saying 'stop sucking' and then moping while they told him to take the reigns and lead.

I still think he can do it but that was the first time i was nervous he might not since he was drafted.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 04:21 PM
and while i was one of the highest on Sanchez predraft on these boards and still am, i see a slight cause for alarm due to one instance in particular: that scene on hard knocks where he was in the office and they were telling him "you know what you need to do better?" and he responded by saying 'stop sucking' and then moping while they told him to take the reigns and lead.

I still think he can do it but that was the first time i was nervous he might not since he was drafted.

Pre-draft I thought he was another USC PR hype machine who smiled his way into the fifth overall pick, but that's just me.

His biggest attribute was his "charisma." WTF kind of **** is that?

Shiver
09-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Mark Sanchez is just about the epitome of everything I look for when trying to spot a bust.

A Perfect Score
09-01-2010, 04:23 PM
16. The number of games Sanchez started in college. I still maintain the kid was way overdrafted.

San Diego Chicken
09-01-2010, 04:24 PM
Judging from the preseason last year could have very well been a fluke.

It's preseason. I honestly haven't even noticed how he's played. But regardless, it's preseason. Practice. The games don't count. I don't understand why this year more than others, fans make such a big deal out of it. Teams are barely even showing their playbooks.

San Diego Chicken
09-01-2010, 04:26 PM
And I guess Sanchez playing like a grizzled vet in last year's playoffs means nothing to anyone. Okay.

yourfavestoner
09-01-2010, 04:28 PM
PRO STILE OFENCE ZOMGZ!!!!11on

Splat
09-01-2010, 04:28 PM
It's preseason. I honestly haven't even noticed how he's played. But regardless, it's preseason. Practice. The games don't count. I don't understand why this year more than others, fans make such a big deal out of it. Teams are barely even showing their playbooks.

I was lead to believe they did silly me.

Shiver
09-01-2010, 04:30 PM
"Grizzled vet"? He didn't do anything.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010012400/2009/POST20/jets@colts#tab:watch

Take out that play and Sanchez did nothing. It was a blown coverage, 80-yards, TD. Even Rex Grossman could make that throw.

tjsunstein
09-01-2010, 04:34 PM
And I guess Sanchez playing like a grizzled vet in last year's playoffs means nothing to anyone. Okay.
12/15 182 yards 1 TD
12/23 100 yards 1 TD 1 INT
17/30 257 yards 2 TD 1 INT

An average of less than 23 passing attempts a game. Game manager would be a better way to describe his playoffs and even career thus far. How many game managers do you draft 5th overall?

hockey619
09-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Most overrated QB:
Most underrated QB:
QB that has the brightest future:
Young QB that will turn into a David Carr-like bust:

Tom Brady: dudes very good and consistent, but I dont think hes got anything on Peyton, Arod and Brees. I could rant for hours about the double standards ive seen in this thread that have benefited Brady but quite frankly im kinda lazy and i feel like ill just hear a ZOMG RINGZZZZZZZZZZZZZ LCUTCH!!!!11!!!1!11!!56ZDFIAWGH ETVIHYUAS E bs and its just the stupidest argument that ever happened. brees didnt win the super bowl this last year, the team the new orleans saints did. good teams win the super bowl, good qb may be a part of it and often is, but a good supporting cast can make up the gap when comparing teams (i.e. peyton may be a little better than brees, but brees' surrounding cast is slightly better, so it evens the playing field EXAMPLE ONLY)

Hasselbeck for underrated: not amazing but hes a solid and consistent player who has continually dealt with limited assistance aside from a few good years from the absurdly overrated shaun alexander and continually underrated o-line they had for a while.

Chad Henne: I decided to go away from the obvious choices and choose a guy who i think is gunna come on this year. Hes got brandon marshall, good backs, i think the door is there to prove his skill. only issue is playing the jets and patriots twice a year is tough. tough division. another very dark horse if anyone really wants to jump out to the twigs of the branch: alex smith.

Bust: I think Freeman will make it and succeed unless Morris screws him up because hes still learning the ropes of being an NFL coach. I think sanchez will too despite my previous post saying i saw some weakness there for the first time that i didnt think he had. im skeptical of stafford, idk i just dont like him, even though i see good signs and hes got megatron and a rapidly growing team around him. ill take bradford to fail if he starts from day 1, thought im not too confident in that. they dont have much support for him at wideout. so ill go out on a huge lim: cutler will fail, he was a product of B.marsh and shanahan's system and he might succeed for a bit but martz will get him killed. boom bold call im prob wrong but whatever lets get people chatting

San Diego Chicken
09-01-2010, 04:35 PM
"Grizzled vet"? He didn't do anything.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010012400/2009/POST20/jets@colts#tab:watch

Take out that play and Sanchez did nothing. It was a blown coverage, 80-yards, TD. Even Rex Grossman could make that throw.

He had a nice TD pass to Keller where he was absolutely drilled into the ground.

And I'll never ever forget the 3rd and 17 against the Chargers. I want to, but I won't.

He isn't gun-shy, and his footwork and pocket presence are terrific for a young QB. Saying he didn't do anything is just silly.

hockey619
09-01-2010, 04:38 PM
Pre-draft I thought he was another USC PR hype machine who smiled his way into the fifth overall pick, but that's just me.

His biggest attribute was his "charisma." WTF kind of **** is that?


but dammit he had a lot of charisma!!!

i liked him over stafford (could make me look very very very stupid) because of his footwork, much crisper than staffords, he just looked much more athletic and smooth. stafford looked akward and jerkey. even if sanchez had the awful habit of running backwards sometimes...

he did look good in the playoffs last year, fearless and making plays and standing in there taking some serious shots, but that convo from hard knocks really made me do a double take.

A Perfect Score
09-01-2010, 04:38 PM
Trying to use the "The New England Patriots won the Superbowl, not Tom Brady" argument when comparing him to Peyton Manning is pretty ignorant. There isnt a QB in the league who has had a better supporting cast over the course of their career then Peyton Manning...not one. Year in and year out he's been given a deadly set of supporting players, he's routinely the least sacked QB in the league, and say what you will about their defense but its custom built to support that offense's style of play.

San Diego Chicken
09-01-2010, 04:40 PM
12/15 182 yards 1 TD
12/23 100 yards 1 TD 1 INT
17/30 257 yards 2 TD 1 INT

An average of less than 23 passing attempts a game. Game manager would be a better way to describe his playoffs and even career thus far. How many game managers do you draft 5th overall?

Say it with me.

He. Was. A. Rookie.

Ben Roethlisberger was a "game manager" at one point in his career too. Now he's the centerpiece of his offense.

And oh lordie, there have been far, far worse draft choices at QB than Mark Sanchez in the top 5. Far worse.

Splat
09-01-2010, 04:43 PM
Trying to use the "The New England Patriots won the Superbowl, not Tom Brady" argument when comparing him to Peyton Manning is pretty ignorant. There isnt a QB in the league who has had a better supporting cast over the course of their career then Peyton Manning...not one. Year in and year out he's been given a deadly set of supporting players, he's routinely the least sacked QB in the league, and say what you will about their defense but its custom built to support that offense's style of play.

This.

There have been rules changed to help Peyton score points.

hockey619
09-01-2010, 04:43 PM
Trying to use the "The New England Patriots won the Superbowl, not Tom Brady" argument when comparing him to Peyton Manning is pretty ignorant. There isnt a QB in the league who has had a better supporting cast over the course of their career then Peyton Manning...not one. Year in and year out he's been given a deadly set of supporting players, he's routinely the least sacked QB in the league, and say what you will about their defense but its custom built to support that offense's style of play.


yeah hes got a bunch of world beaters now...

wait who ever heard of austin collie or garcon before last year? i call bs if you say you did, they were no one. and then they were in the super bowl. reggie wayne is an above average reciever, who btw had a horrendous super bowl.

least sacked? certainly couldnt be because he reads teams fast and gets rid of the ball? must be that amazing o-line...which is average/above average outside of saturday, who i think is as indispensable as peyton. dudes a beast.

and the rules werent changed: they became enforced. the downfield contact rule has existed forever, just was never enforced until the league saw the oppurtunity to open the passing game and make it higher scoring.
and the rule changes applied to every single team, so its still and even playing field.