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bigbluedefense
09-04-2010, 06:57 AM
-I think people are sleeping on the titans. That defense is being labeled the new no name defense, and with just cause. They have a very good defense. There aren't any name guys on it, but they're just solid all around. It kind of reminds me of the 90s Giants defenses under John Fox. Just solid all around.

And while I don't think Young will put up incredible numbers, the guy is showing improvement, and I think the Titans have enough on offense to compliment that defense. Don't sleep on Blount to spell CJ2k either.

Best oline in the league, a slept on defense, great run game, great coach, and a good enough pass game. Sounds like a team who can make some noise to me.

Everyone is talking about the Texans. The Titans are the real contenders in this division to take on the Colts.

-YFS eluded to this earlier, and I'm starting to feel the same way, I think this is the first year in a long time that the NFC East only brings 1 team to the playoffs. Each team just has at least 1 major question mark heading into the season, and I just don't see the same overall talent in the division that I've seen in the past.

-I think the Panthers are another team that everyone is sleeping on. They're like an NFC version of the titans, great run game, great oline, solid qb who won't lose you the game, and an underrated defense.

-I love the Packers, but I'm not ready to call them a legit SB contender bc I think their defense is going to be mediocre this year. They probably will have one of the best offenses in the league though.

-The fate of the Chargers will lie with Shawn Merriman this year. I think the run game greatly improves, I think the pass game will be good enough to put up points, and I think the run defense will be there, and the pass coverage will be improved. But without Merriman coming back to form, this pass rush is still very mediocre, and you can't go far in the playoffs without a pass rush.

-I think Oakland makes improvements, but everyone is vastly overrating the addition of Jason Campbell. He still sucks, and their qb position will still be an issue.

-If any team gives the Chargers a hard time, I think its Denver. While I laugh at McDaniels some times (ok a lot of times), he's not that bad of a coach if he's given time to mold his own team. This team is loaded with veterans with leadership, and they can overcome some lack of talent and overachieve.

-Eric Berry and Earl Thomas are going to be studs.

-I've said this many times this offseason, the Jets are going to finish 3rd in the East, and the Dolphins and Pats will fight for the division. I see the Phins winning it with the Pats making a wildcard spot. I think the Pats defense is going to be better than people think.

I also think the Pats offense won't be as good as people think.

-I think the 4-3 defense is the new 3-4 defense. What I mean by that is, in the past, drafting for a 3-4 defense was great bc players fell to you later in the draft bc they weren't fits for the system that everyone ran.

With so many teams looking for 3-4 talent nowadays, you can build a hell of a 4-3 defense through the draft. Look at all the 4-3 talent that fell in this past draft, Houston, Brian Price, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Daryl Washington (shouldve been drafted by a 4-3 team), Greg Hardy, Linval Joseph, the list goes on.

While I love the 3-4 defense, if I were a GM, i much rather build a 4-3 defense right now. Now is the time to have a 4-3.

-Call me crazy, but I like the Seahawks this year. I think their defense is better than people think, they had a great great draft, they have good running backs, an old but decent qb if healthy, and if Okung can bring stability to that oline, it'll be good enough to compete.

Wrs are overrated. Who cares if their WRs suck. They'll use a commitee.

I'm not sold on Alex Smith taking the 49ers to the promised land, I think Singletary has too much Herm Edwards in him to make the necessary adjustments during games and during the season, and I think the Cards are screwed without Warner.

I like the Seahawks.

-I think Kevin Kolb is going to be a disappointment. I never understood the hype.

-Raheem Morris is a joke of a HC. I can't believe he still has a job.

I'll add more later on.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-04-2010, 07:52 AM
Man I don't even have to make a post. I pretty much echo all of your thoughts. The Packers have too much hype, the NFC East isn't this massive beast division that's just going to throttle everyone else in the league and have 2 teams make the playoffs despite their tough schedules and the 49ers/Texans bandwagons once again are going to come up lame

And yea, the Jets. WTF. I have never in my life seen a 9-7 team, who was insanely lucky to get to 9-7 in the first place, get this much hype. And that's before you consider that their QB is still the Sanchize. Listen, I've watched teams with good defense and an erratic at best QB for the last decade. They don't sustain success from year to year, though they are prone to overachieving in the playoffs. Also, your D isn't consistently great year to year. It'll fall off a bit one year, then bounce back the next. This team has 7-9 written all over them.

Speaking of the Jets, Kevin Kolb should really be their QB. He has the same ridiculously misplaced hype for no reason at all. I think people are all over his nuts because they think his fantasy numbers will be good since he's going to throw 700 times, but that still doesn't make him a good real life QB.

The only thing you said I don't really agree with is the Seahawks. I won't write them off because that division SUCKS, but I just don't think they have enough talent this year and I don't think Pete Carroll is the type of guy to overachieve with a bunch of schlubs and guys he coached in college who washed out in the league. Give them a couple years and yea, they'll be back. Then again, I don't know anyone who looks good in the West so maybe they win it by default

I've thought for the last couple years that the Chargers are basically Philip Rivers and his receiver core, and if they slip up, they're screwed. Still not sure if this year will be any different. I like Mathews, but I dunno, you never want a rookie to be this key to your team. And the defense is still real iffy. Merriman going back to the old Merriman would be big, but the defense as a whole is a lot worse than it was 3 years ago. Don't think V-Jax will be as big a loss as some. He's the best WR they have, but you take him away and Rivers will make another 6'2 200+ 4.5 guy 80 or 90% of what he was

I'm trying to think of anything you didn't cover. Hmm, the NFC North. If the Lions weren't the Lions, I might have them as a darkhorse for the wildcard. As it is, they're going to effect the division race by upsetting one of the contenders, maybe twice. 6-10 maybe? I think they have an outside chance at finishing ahead of the Bears. I don't know why people think Martz and Cutler is a good combination. If anything, it's a terrible one and will just make Culter a worse QB

Saints-Tigers
09-04-2010, 08:07 AM
I agree on pretty much everything.

The Panthers don't scare me with Moore at QB, the faster Clausen comes in for them, the better off they are. If he can get "ruined" in that type of situation, he'll never succeed anywhere.

Titans offensive line is amazing, and Blount looks good too. Should be a powerful running game.

Pats passing game is going to put up big stats, and their defense will find a way to at least be serviceable, they always do.

Jets will be 3rd by a fair margin, I don't see them finishing first.

I'm glad someone else feels this way about the Packers too, I thought I was just going crazy.

Never really thought about that with the 3-4 and 4-3, but that is a valid point, and I like it!

Texans will disappoint, again. I'm sure they'll break through at some point since they are the "sleeper" every year it seems.

49ers have all of the ingredients for superbowl Gumbo, but they don't have the roux(QB). Alex Smith is going to hold that team back. Definitely wont be shocked to see Seattle win it, but at the same time, the 9ers might have enough talent to squeak it out.

Lol Kolb.

AHungryWalrus
09-04-2010, 08:38 AM
And yea, the Jets. WTF. I have never in my life seen a 9-7 team, who was insanely lucky to get to 9-7 in the first place, get this much hype. And that's before you consider that their QB is still the Sanchize. Listen, I've watched teams with good defense and an erratic at best QB for the last decade. They don't sustain success from year to year, though they are prone to overachieving in the playoffs. Also, your D isn't consistently great year to year. It'll fall off a bit one year, then bounce back the next. This team has 7-9 written all over them.

They were insanely lucky. I mean, it isn't like they didn't lose their most (maybe second most after Revis) important defensive player for the season 6 weeks in. It isn't like they didn't have their best pass rusher for the first 4 weeks.

It isn't like 5 of the 7 games we lost were within one possession. Or that we hadn't acquired a true number one receiver until midway through the season.

Instead, lets say the last two teams we played "laid down", which made the Jets extremely lucky. Although, one of the two teams just HAPPENED to be the team they played the next weekend in the playoffs and absolutely handed it to. And the other game, the Jets were straight up being blown out when the Colts pulled their starters. I mean, it wasn't a one possession game or anything.

Oh. Wait.

It's actually more trendy to say the Jets were "lucky" based on nothing, as opposed to thinking they will do good. But whatever, keep expecting the Jets to finish third in the division. As for Sanchez being erratic at best, I have never, in my life, seen a rookie QB be so destined by the masses to never be able to show any improvement. But that's cool. It's also trendy. Hate Sanchez. Hate the Jets. Let it play out on the field, and come January, one of us is going to be wrong. We'll take a look then.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-04-2010, 09:21 AM
This is the other thing about the Jets that bothers me. This us vs the world philosophy that is completely baseless. The rest of the NFL isn't out to get you (or at least they weren't, until you started talking endless amounts of ****). You aren't the Pats. You're the second New York team that no one cared about. And yea, maybe the Sanchize improves on his 12:20 TD ratio. He still won't be that good. At least not this year.

LOL @ saying you weren't lucky. Nothing else that happened in your season cancels out the fact that two teams laid down for you. Everyone else gets injuries. Everyone else loses close games. It's why you see teams go from 5-11 one year to 11-5 the next. But no one gets gifted a playoff spot because two teams don't play their starters. I also love how the fact that you beat the Bengals in the playoffs somehow is supposed to counteract this, too. How many times do teams split their division series, again?

Saints-Tigers
09-04-2010, 09:22 AM
Come on man, Rex even quit on the Jets when things looked bleak. This team is going to implode if they even have a hint of losing.

Brent
09-04-2010, 09:25 AM
This team is going to implode if they even have a hint of losing.
I very much agree with this.

Splat
09-04-2010, 09:38 AM
Homer thought.

Dexter Mcclusster is going to have a Percy Harvin type impact.

Non Homer thought.

Brett Favre's starting streak will end.

Rosebud
09-04-2010, 10:06 AM
This is the other thing about the Jets that bothers me. This us vs the world philosophy that is completely baseless. The rest of the NFL isn't out to get you (or at least they weren't, until you started talking endless amounts of ****). You aren't the Pats. You're the second New York team that no one cared about. And yea, maybe the Sanchize improves on his 12:20 TD ratio. He still won't be that good. At least not this year.

LOL @ saying you weren't lucky. Nothing else that happened in your season cancels out the fact that two teams laid down for you. Everyone else gets injuries. Everyone else loses close games. It's why you see teams go from 5-11 one year to 11-5 the next. But no one gets gifted a playoff spot because two teams don't play their starters. I also love how the fact that you beat the Bengals in the playoffs somehow is supposed to counteract this, too. How many times do teams split their division series, again?

That's the thing you can never forget, the Jets are like the Mets if the Yankees weren't as successful as they have been. They're clearly NY's second team, but because the Giants aren't the winningest team in history they feel like the difference isn't as blatant. Plus a lot of Jets fans are just ignorant *****, which is the one thing I hold against the Jets, the most ignorant New Yorkers all seem to be Jets fans.

EDIT for Crickett:
I'm not saying that only the Jets have ingorant fans or that all Jets fans are ignorant, for example the Jets fans on here are all general good fans and knowledgeable, just that in real life most of the most football ignorant New Yorkers I've come across have been Jets fans.

bigbluedefense
09-04-2010, 11:40 AM
I don't have any hate for the Jets. I love Rex to be honest, he's great entertainment and I love his schemes.

In fact, I love the whole coaching staff. Schottenheimer is going to be a great HC one day too. They have a solid group of coaches.

I just happen to think the Jets aren't as good as people think they are. I don't think they're as talented as they're perceived to be.

Jvig43
09-04-2010, 12:46 PM
This is the other thing about the Jets that bothers me. This us vs the world philosophy that is completely baseless. The rest of the NFL isn't out to get you (or at least they weren't, until you started talking endless amounts of ****). You aren't the Pats. You're the second New York team that no one cared about. And yea, maybe the Sanchize improves on his 12:20 TD ratio. He still won't be that good. At least not this year.

LOL @ saying you weren't lucky. Nothing else that happened in your season cancels out the fact that two teams laid down for you. Everyone else gets injuries. Everyone else loses close games. It's why you see teams go from 5-11 one year to 11-5 the next. But no one gets gifted a playoff spot because two teams don't play their starters. I also love how the fact that you beat the Bengals in the playoffs somehow is supposed to counteract this, too. How many times do teams split their division series, again?

This is too true. No one really cared until your head coach started being a loud mouth douche and ranting about how they should be the favs to win it all when two weeks previously he completely gave up on them.

Paranoidmoonduck
09-04-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't think they're as talented as they're perceived to be.

Yeah...this.

This team lucked into the playoffs despite having a great running game and a great defense. If you excel at those two things and still only win 9 games, you're pretty damn far away from being amazingly talented, and it's not like Tomlinson and Taylor are going to change the deficiencies that team has.

I think Sanchez is going to struggle this year and that the team confidence that's been pumped up since the start of last year's playoffs is going to deflate.

T-RICH49
09-04-2010, 12:47 PM
homer thought

Eric Berry and Kendrick Lewis will be studs for many years


non homer thought

Vikings will miss the playoffs

abaddon41_80
09-04-2010, 12:56 PM
I agree about the Titans but I wouldn't call their offensive line the best in the league. I would take the Dolphins and Jets, and possibly Patriots if I was building a pass orientated team, over them.

And I obviously disagree when it comes to the 49ers. People are underrated Alex Smith. In all his time with us he has never been the main problem this team has had and, judging by how he performed last year and in the preseason, he won't do it this year. If anything holds the 49ers back it will be the offensive coordinator.

bigbluedefense
09-04-2010, 01:34 PM
I hope Rex keeps talking the way he does all year long. I want the Jets to get all the headlines. The Giants always do better when they fly under the radar.

The Jets getting all the attention is good for the Giants, so I'm fine with it.

bigbluedefense
09-04-2010, 01:41 PM
Add to the list of thoughts:

Myrone Rolle being cut is proof that in the NFL, its more important to be athletic than smart.

I never bought the Rolle hype. I'm glad he's a genius, but I don't care how smart you are, if you're not fast enough to play in this league, you're not going to play.

I was hoping he'd somehow make a career, but its obvious he's not capable of playing in this league.

yourfavestoner
09-04-2010, 01:54 PM
Add to the list of thoughts:

Myrone Rolle being cut is proof that in the NFL, its more important to be athletic than smart.

I never bought the Rolle hype. I'm glad he's a genius, but I don't care how smart you are, if you're not fast enough to play in this league, you're not going to play.

I was hoping he'd somehow make a career, but its obvious he's not capable of playing in this league.

I used to hate it when people said he'd be a first round draft pick. He's another guy who was ridiculously overhyped on this board because of how many stars he had next to his name in high school. He was average at best at FSU.

And I agree with just about everything you said in this thread, but we usually agree on everything. Par for the course.

Rosebud
09-04-2010, 02:25 PM
I've been thinking about and I still feel better about the giants and Cowboys making the playoffs than I do the Vikings and Falcons. IMO both of those NFC East teams make it pending injuries while it's the Vikes and Falcons that determine who gets the 6th playoff spot.

Brodeur
09-04-2010, 02:59 PM
There's a lack of Jahvid Best praise in your post.

holt_bruce81
09-04-2010, 03:39 PM
Homer thought.

Dexter Mcclusster is going to have a Percy Harvin type impact.

Non Homer thought.

Brett Favre's starting streak will end.

Are you telling me I'll have to rely on Sam Bradford to win me my 600 dollars in Fantasy football? Hope he has a heck of a season!

BeerBaron
09-04-2010, 04:11 PM
I'll try and piece up my responses:

-I think people are sleeping on the titans. That defense is being labeled the new no name defense, and with just cause. They have a very good defense. There aren't any name guys on it, but they're just solid all around. It kind of reminds me of the 90s Giants defenses under John Fox. Just solid all around.

And while I don't think Young will put up incredible numbers, the guy is showing improvement, and I think the Titans have enough on offense to compliment that defense. Don't sleep on Blount to spell CJ2k either.

Best oline in the league, a slept on defense, great run game, great coach, and a good enough pass game. Sounds like a team who can make some noise to me.

Everyone is talking about the Texans. The Titans are the real contenders in this division to take on the Colts.

Agreed on all fronts. I caught a couple of the Titans preseason games and when their starting defense was out there, they looked fantastic. A couple of friends of mine from school and work were asking me for any fantasy football tips I might have had, and I recommended forgoing the "elite" defenses in their drafts and taking the Titans a little later.

I do worry a little about them against the Colts and Texans though....they always play their rivals tough I feel, but Peyton always seems to dice up any defense, and I don't feel that the Titans are strong enough to overcome that.


-YFS eluded to this earlier, and I'm starting to feel the same way, I think this is the first year in a long time that the NFC East only brings 1 team to the playoffs. Each team just has at least 1 major question mark heading into the season, and I just don't see the same overall talent in the division that I've seen in the past.

For me, I have the Cowboys winning the division with the Giants as a Wildcard. The Eagles o-line has looked pathetic in the preseason and so did Kolb....and I think the Redskins are a season or two away from being relevant in that division. They might be able to trip up one of the other teams once, but I still see them having a top 10 pick.

And for what it's worth, my other Wildcard pick and my biggest sleeper team: Atlanta.

-I think the Panthers are another team that everyone is sleeping on. They're like an NFC version of the titans, great run game, great oline, solid qb who won't lose you the game, and an underrated defense.

Disagree. Their run game will be strong but do you really trust Matt Moore, those WRs or that front 7? I sure as hell don't....especially with the Saints and Falcons in that division, both of whom I have as clear favorites over the Panthers.


-I love the Packers, but I'm not ready to call them a legit SB contender bc I think their defense is going to be mediocre this year. They probably will have one of the best offenses in the league though.

I said this in my Truths thread a few months ago and got a new asshole ripped by overzealous Packers fans who just wanted to look at the fact that they had the #2 defense and wanted it to end there. They beat up on a lot of weak offenses, and when they faced legit QBs and passing attacks, they got shredded. And honestly, did they really do anything to improve on defense over the offseason?

With all of the problems the Vikings are having and this feeling that I think everyone has of Favre getting hurt, I don't see any way that the Packers lose the division, but I think when they face an elite offense in the post season, they'll lose.


-I think Oakland makes improvements, but everyone is vastly overrating the addition of Jason Campbell. He still sucks, and their qb position will still be an issue.

Agreed....I think they'll be #2 in the division and better than in recent years thogh.


-If any team gives the Chargers a hard time, I think its Denver. While I laugh at McDaniels some times (ok a lot of times), he's not that bad of a coach if he's given time to mold his own team. This team is loaded with veterans with leadership, and they can overcome some lack of talent and overachieve.


Overachieving is hard to predict. And they have a SERIOUS lack of talent....it's not just a little bit. Their rookie receivers have been hurt too much to be developed in any significant way this offseason, and injuries have hurt them in just about every other way at every other position. RB...o-line...Dumervil...their secondary has some age and has been banged up. I think they'll be closer to 4th in the division than 1st.

-I've said this many times this offseason, the Jets are going to finish 3rd in the East, and the Dolphins and Pats will fight for the division. I see the Phins winning it with the Pats making a wildcard spot. I think the Pats defense is going to be better than people think.

I also think the Pats offense won't be as good as people think.

In what I saw of the Dolphins in the preseason, they looked somewhat disfuntional on offense. Some of that can be chalked up to Marshall being new to it...but Henne didn't look great either. If the Jets fail like so many predict they will, I think the Pats might win it by default.


-I think the 4-3 defense is the new 3-4 defense. What I mean by that is, in the past, drafting for a 3-4 defense was great bc players fell to you later in the draft bc they weren't fits for the system that everyone ran.

With so many teams looking for 3-4 talent nowadays, you can build a hell of a 4-3 defense through the draft. Look at all the 4-3 talent that fell in this past draft, Houston, Brian Price, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Daryl Washington (shouldve been drafted by a 4-3 team), Greg Hardy, Linval Joseph, the list goes on.

While I love the 3-4 defense, if I were a GM, i much rather build a 4-3 defense right now. Now is the time to have a 4-3.

Agreed. And I think the pass-whacky direction almost all offenses seem to be headed will swing that pendulum at some point in a few seasons too. Huge, road grater o-lineman and power backs will start slipping in the draft and become more readily available, and some team will start to collect these guys and create an old school, smashmouth offense.

And all of the smaller, faster defenses teams have built to stop the pass will be at their mercy.

SFbear
09-04-2010, 05:00 PM
-I think the 4-3 defense is the new 3-4 defense. What I mean by that is, in the past, drafting for a 3-4 defense was great bc players fell to you later in the draft bc they weren't fits for the system that everyone ran.

With so many teams looking for 3-4 talent nowadays, you can build a hell of a 4-3 defense through the draft. Look at all the 4-3 talent that fell in this past draft, Houston, Brian Price, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Daryl Washington (shouldve been drafted by a 4-3 team), Greg Hardy, Linval Joseph, the list goes on.

While I love the 3-4 defense, if I were a GM, i much rather build a 4-3 defense right now. Now is the time to have a 4-3.



This is the exact argument I make with Bears fans who advocate us switching to a 3-4 after Lovie is ousted. After KC used the 3rd overall on a 3-4 DE, it was apparent the age of bargain basement prices for 3-4 "tweeners" was over.

Coincidently now that the Redskins are running a 3-4, the Chicago Bears are now the only team in the NFL that has never run a 3-4 base offense in their entire history.

Shiver
09-04-2010, 07:23 PM
Carolina's defense is not underrated. They were awful against the run last year and now they lost their best Linebacker and Julius Peppers. Their corners aren't that great either, but their pass rush concealed some of their flaws. That is their biggest problem because it will force them away from their deadly power run game.

BeerBaron
09-04-2010, 07:25 PM
Carolina's defense is not underrated. They were awful against the run last year and now they lost their best Linebacker and Julius Peppers. Their corners aren't that great either, but their pass rush concealed some of their flaws. That is their biggest problem because it will force them away from their deadly power run game.

And they lost part of that pass rush when Peppers left. I think Carolina is more likely to compete with the Bucs for the bottom of the division than for the playoffs.

Brent
09-04-2010, 07:27 PM
Huge, road grater o-lineman and power backs will start slipping in the draft and become more readily available, and some team will start to collect these guys and create an old school, smashmouth offense
*looks at Niners* *looks at this post*

Brodeur
09-04-2010, 07:29 PM
Carolina's defense is not underrated. They were awful against the run last year and now they lost their best Linebacker and Julius Peppers. Their corners aren't that great either, but their pass rush concealed some of their flaws. That is their biggest problem because it will force them away from their deadly power run game.

Since when is Thomas Davis better than Jon Beason?

Shiver
09-04-2010, 07:31 PM
Even Jon Beason will say that. Thomas Davis is what makes their line-backing corp. run. Beason has the better stats, but Davis makes the plays.

fenikz
09-04-2010, 07:40 PM
I'm thinking for DA, 4000/30/20

Sportsfan486
09-04-2010, 07:41 PM
I see QBs having another huge year across the league, probably even better than last. Look at all the teams with huge problems at CB, most of the "super bowl favorites" have huge holes at DB with a few exceptions. Cowboys, Packers, Patriots, Ravens and Vikings all have below-average to downright bad CBs, especially in terms of depth.

Combine that with some of the best looking passing offenses ever (Packers, Patriots, Colts, Saints, Ravens, Cowboys, Texans all look elite in that regard and it's not a stretch to see the Chargers, Falcons, Vikings and Steelers joining them) and we could be looking at a year of 8+ passers hitting 4k+ yards and 28+ TDs. I wouldn't be shocked if we see 3+ 4700+ yard and 40+ TD passers; Manning, Brees, Brady, and Rodgers all have a legit shot and Schaub could make a run for it, too.

I know such seasons are incredibly rare but the combination across the board of great offenses and mediocre defenses makes it possible.

Brent
09-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Cowboys, Packers, Patriots, Ravens and Vikings all have below-average to downright bad CBs, especially in terms of depth.
don't get me wrong, I ******* hate the cowboys, but Newman/Jenkins/Scandrick is a pretty good trio of cornerbacks

Sportsfan486
09-04-2010, 08:09 PM
don't get me wrong, I ******* hate the cowboys, but Newman/Jenkins/Scandrick is a pretty good trio of cornerbacks

You're right, I was more referring to depth with them. They only have those three atm. If one goes down they're going to have some trouble.

AHungryWalrus
09-04-2010, 08:32 PM
This is the other thing about the Jets that bothers me. This us vs the world philosophy that is completely baseless. The rest of the NFL isn't out to get you (or at least they weren't, until you started talking endless amounts of ****). You aren't the Pats. You're the second New York team that no one cared about. And yea, maybe the Sanchize improves on his 12:20 TD ratio. He still won't be that good. At least not this year.

LOL @ saying you weren't lucky. Nothing else that happened in your season cancels out the fact that two teams laid down for you. Everyone else gets injuries. Everyone else loses close games. It's why you see teams go from 5-11 one year to 11-5 the next. But no one gets gifted a playoff spot because two teams don't play their starters. I also love how the fact that you beat the Bengals in the playoffs somehow is supposed to counteract this, too. How many times do teams split their division series, again?

A) Where, ANYWHERE, did I say everyone hates the Jets? I'm just saying on this board it is more trendy to say that the Jets will fail than to say they will do good. Proof of that is the next three posters after you all said the Jets would do bad and bashed the Jets, and Jets fans, and no one defended the Jets. I said you were hating on them. Which you were. Predicting that the team would do worse based on general fallacious arguments. Defenses that don't lose personnel generally DON'T have big falloffs. In fact, they usually stay the same or get better. You present opinions as facts. No one cares at all what your gut feeling is. Gut feelings are ridiculously useless. Let's see:

I have a gut feeling you probably are wearing womens underwear right now. Posters who present ridiculous theories with no statistical merit are prone to cross dressing.

Yay!

B) The Bengals first game, they played all their starters. The only reason people are saying they laid down is because the Jets dominated them. The Jets proceeded to dominate them the next game too. The Bengals last year didn't match up with the Jets well because they were extremely similar, depending on defense and run game, but had a worse defense, and a worse run game. If people want to ***** and say the Jets were handed a game by the Colts, whatever. The Jets were still in it, and no one knows how it would have ended. But the Jets beat Cincinnati's starters. And beat the soundly the next week again. I fail to see how that's "luck." But sure, change history all you want to try and make a lousy point.

C) Everyone has injuries. Most people don't have them to their best / most important player. Polamalu goes out, Steelers are unlucky and have an excuse. If Manning went down, and the Colts made the playoffs, everyone would be amazed. You're discounting what the Jets did without Jenkins.

D) As for people not caring about the Jets, read the headlines lately. I don't really care about who reports on my team, because I live in Canada. It doesn't effect me. I don't care about who New York likes more. But since Rex has become Coach, the Jets have gotten plenty of attention.

AHungryWalrus
09-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Come on man, Rex even quit on the Jets when things looked bleak. This team is going to implode if they even have a hint of losing.

He never quit on the team. He thought they were statistically eliminated.

He's bad at math, yes. He's not a quitter.

OzTitan
09-04-2010, 08:35 PM
The Titans OL put up a pretty scary bad performance this preseason. Roos was particularly bad. That Panthers game was the worst, but Roos has been beaten routinely all preseason. And I think CJ makes the OL look a little better than it is in the run game. They were a strong pass protection unit previously but if this preseason is any indication.....it might not be such a strong OL.

+1 for mentioning the Titans in a preseason league wide thoughts thread though. First time it was done around here since like 2007 I think :P

AHungryWalrus
09-04-2010, 08:41 PM
That's the thing you can never forget, the Jets are like the Mets if the Yankees weren't as successful as they have been. They're clearly NY's second team, but because the Giants aren't the winningest team in history they feel like the difference isn't as blatant. Plus a lot of Jets fans are just ignorant *****, which is the one thing I hold against the Jets, the most ignorant New Yorkers all seem to be Jets fans.

EDIT for Crickett:
I'm not saying that only the Jets have ingorant fans or that all Jets fans are ignorant, for example the Jets fans on here are all general good fans and knowledgeable, just that in real life most of the most football ignorant New Yorkers I've come across have been Jets fans.

:roll: I'm not from New York. I don't care about who gets more attention.

I responded because 90% of the people that say the Jets are bad base it on nothing. They give "HAHAHA REX IS AN IDIOYTZ!!! JETS SUK! WONT MAKE PLAYOFSS."

If you want to bash the Jets, there are legitimate things to bash. Revis may not play. Cromartie may be a bust just like Sheppard. We are starting a rookie LG who almost got our QB killed in preseason. Bray-Bray could keep being mentally deficient and dropping balls left and right. Maybe you could call out chemistry, we have a lot of guys that want the ball. Sanchez may regress back to his December form.

Shiver
09-04-2010, 09:05 PM
I would also like to make a point that the days of run first (only?) offenses succeeding is antiquated to some extent. Only one of the top-five rushing offenses made the playoffs last year, the one being a wild-card that beat two B-teams to get in. Had the Bengals and Colts actually played to win then all of the top passing teams (Houston) would have made the playoffs and none of the top rushing offenses would have. The game is fundamentally different, even from ten years ago. I don't think the '00 Ravens could have won it all in today's game. So no, I don't see Carolina and Tennessee making the playoffs.

I agree with a lot of your points: New York Jets, NFC East, 4-3, Merriman. I just wanted to point out some point of disagreement.

Sportsfan486
09-04-2010, 09:18 PM
The Jets were 9-7 last year. Lost their best running back. May have lost their best defensive player. Their OLine has weakened. Sanchez hasn't looked improved. They play in a tough division with two other legit playoff contenders.

That said, if they get Revis back and their D stays mostly healthy it's going to be hard to keep them out of the playoffs with the best D in football (although I'd almost argue that Crom is a downgrade for them; still the best D.)

Brodeur
09-04-2010, 09:20 PM
The Jets were 9-7 last year. Lost their best running back. May have lost their best defensive player. Their OLine has weakened. Sanchez hasn't looked improved. They play in a tough division with two other legit playoff contenders.

That said, if they get Revis back and their D stays mostly healthy it's going to be hard to keep them out of the playoffs with the best D in football (although I'd almost argue that Crom is a downgrade for them; still the best D.)

Shonn Greene is much better than Thomas Jones and LDT is basically the same back at this point, their o-line is the exact same except for Faneca who sucked ass last year and Revis will be there at some point.

Sportsfan486
09-04-2010, 09:28 PM
Shonn Greene is much better than Thomas Jones and LDT is basically the same back at this point, their o-line is the exact same except for Faneca who sucked ass last year and Revis will be there at some point.

Greene is not going to have a better season than Jones did last year. That's just unrealistic. I assume Revis will be back, also, but you never know.

BlindSite
09-04-2010, 11:32 PM
Even Jon Beason will say that. Thomas Davis is what makes their line-backing corp. run. Beason has the better stats, but Davis makes the plays.

Beason is a better linebacker, but it is close and Davis is a big time play maker. To suggest anyone in the 43 is a better linebacker than Jon Beason right now is a stretch.

I would also like to make a point that the days of run first (only?) offenses succeeding is antiquated to some extent. Only one of the top-five rushing offenses made the playoffs last year, the one being a wild-card that beat two B-teams to get in. Had the Bengals and Colts actually played to win then all of the top passing teams (Houston) would have made the playoffs and none of the top rushing offenses would have. The game is fundamentally different, even from ten years ago. I don't think the '00 Ravens could have won it all in today's game. So no, I don't see Carolina and Tennessee making the playoffs.


Your biggest arguments against Carolina are the run defense last year and run first offenses don't make the playoffs, the second point is kind of silly since production offensively whether it comes from the pass or the run doesn't matter, as long as production is there when it's needed.

Secondly, the issue with the Panthers defense last year was largely personnel and a change in schemes, when the defense got used to the Meeks system there was a very, very noticeable difference in the performance of the team. The defensive line is restocked with guys who fit the system and it's the fastest sideline to sideline defense the team has had in it's history, it's a great set up.

Oh and the corners are better than you give them credit for, Marshall and Munnerlyn (who covers flankers in the nickel) gave up 2 TDs total last year.

In total the corners as a unit gave up just 8 touchdowns all year. That's a good secondary no matter how you want to spin it.

AHungryWalrus
09-05-2010, 01:23 AM
Greene is not going to have a better season than Jones did last year. That's just unrealistic. I assume Revis will be back, also, but you never know.

Jones only averaged 4.2 ypc, and that's greatly inflated from one lucky game against Buffalo. He'd be at 3.6 YPC otherwise. I think Greene can outproduce that.

He may not get more yards, but that's because he won't get as many carries.

Saints-Tigers
09-05-2010, 01:25 AM
None of the top 4/5 of the top running teams didn't make the post season, but number 6 won the SuperBowl.

Sportsfan486
09-05-2010, 01:32 AM
None of the top 4/5 of the top running teams didn't make the post season, but number 6 won the SuperBowl.

I don't hate it when people use not double negatives. Your sentence makes no sense; for that and because 2 of the top 5 running teams made the post season and both won at least one game. And 5 of the top 10 running teams made the post season; and all but one won at least a playoff game (the one loss was to the #1 overall rushing offense.) Two of the top six played in championship games, one won the Superbowl.

Saints-Tigers
09-05-2010, 01:40 AM
I don't hate it when people use not double negatives. Your sentence makes no sense; for that and because 2 of the top 5 running teams made the post season and both won at least one game. And 5 of the top 10 running teams made the post season; and all but one won at least a playoff game (the one loss was to the #1 overall rushing offense.) Two of the top six played in championship games, one won the Superbowl.

You aren't not mad?

V.I.P
09-05-2010, 01:49 AM
Whatis up with the Raheem Morris hate?

Caddy
09-05-2010, 01:54 AM
Whatis up with the Raheem Morris hate?

I agree that right now the hate is probably unjustified, however I'd be happy for a comment like that be made should the buccaneers finish with another horrible record.

He did a decent job with a young and for the most part crappy team and I'm really excited for the upcoming season.

I think one of the big problems with the appointment of Morris is that it may have been made a little prematurely. He is very inexperienced and you can see that at times. Don't forget he has absolutely no knowledge of how to run an NFL offense. I think we are hoping that he can emualte former DB coordinator Mike Tomlin who we lost to the Steelers.

We'll see I guess.

Sportsfan486
09-05-2010, 01:58 AM
Whatis up with the Raheem Morris hate?

I don't know, I thought he did a pretty solid job with that team and has them headed in the right direction.

Morton
09-05-2010, 12:49 PM
- Packers will represent the NFC in the Super Bowl. The only competition in the NFC for the Packers are the Saints, and I think the Packers will be slightly better both on offense and defense. They'll have the #1 offense, Aaron Rodgers will win league MVP, and the defense will be good enough to force turnovers and protect big leads. My only concern on that team is the cornerback situation.

- I'm not seeing the Titans as a great team. Chris Johnson is a great back, but he's going to regress to the mean and probably not rush for 2000+ yards this year. The defense looks average, at best. Where's the pass rush? They have no above-average pass rushers on that defense.

- Panthers will actually be BETTER on defense without Julius Peppers. I always thought that Peppers was one of the more overrated DEs in the league, and this will be addition via subtraction for the Panthers. Alot of young guys are stepping up in a big way on defense for the Panthers - Everette Brown and Greg Hardy look like studs already.

- The Lions will win at least 8 games this year. Their defensive line is approximately 1000x better than it was last year. They can rush four and get pressure on the quarterback. Jahvid Best and Calvin Johnson will provide two elite weapons for maturing QB Matt Stafford. They might not make it into the playoffs this year, but the days of one-win seasons are long gone.

- Sam Bradford will win at least 6 games for the Rams, and maybe more. This guy will be the franchise quarterback the Rams have been missing since Kurt Warner left. He's worth every penny of that massive first round pick contract. Spagnuolo will be glad he picked Bradford over Suh in this year's draft. There's nothing more important in football than a franchise QB.

- The NFC East will actually be one of the weakest division in the NFL this year. Kevin Kolb looks below-average as a QB and the Eagles WR corps is overrated. The Giants defense will be slightly improved, but nowhere near elite, and Eli Manning will have to throw alot this year, and he's no Peyton. The Cowboys have looked listless and disinterested all preseason, and the O-Line will be a total disaster this year, and once the O-Line fails, Tony Romo will fold like a lawn chair. The Redskins will be improved with McNabb as their QB, but there's no way McNabb makes it through the season without suffering some kind of injuries that derail the Redskin season.

Shiver
09-05-2010, 01:16 PM
I think it will be an interesting test of "Ewing Theory" how San Diego performs without LaDainian Tomlinson. We must not forget just how integral he was to their team for an entire decade. Even as his skills declined last year the team still force fed him the ball on the goal-line.

Brodeur
09-05-2010, 01:21 PM
The Ewing Theory really doesn't work with LDT because he blew last year.

scottyboy
09-05-2010, 01:30 PM
- Packers will represent the NFC in the Super Bowl. The only competition in the NFC for the Packers are the Saints, and I think the Packers will be slightly better both on offense and defense. They'll have the #1 offense, Aaron Rodgers will win league MVP, and the defense will be good enough to force turnovers and protect big leads. My only concern on that team is the cornerback situation.

- I'm not seeing the Titans as a great team. Chris Johnson is a great back, but he's going to regress to the mean and probably not rush for 2000+ yards this year. The defense looks average, at best. Where's the pass rush? They have no above-average pass rushers on that defense.

- Panthers will actually be BETTER on defense without Julius Peppers. I always thought that Peppers was one of the more overrated DEs in the league, and this will be addition via subtraction for the Panthers. Alot of young guys are stepping up in a big way on defense for the Panthers - Everette Brown and Greg Hardy look like studs already.

- The Lions will win at least 8 games this year. Their defensive line is approximately 1000x better than it was last year. They can rush four and get pressure on the quarterback. Jahvid Best and Calvin Johnson will provide two elite weapons for maturing QB Matt Stafford. They might not make it into the playoffs this year, but the days of one-win seasons are long gone.

- Sam Bradford will win at least 6 games for the Rams, and maybe more. This guy will be the franchise quarterback the Rams have been missing since Kurt Warner left. He's worth every penny of that massive first round pick contract. Spagnuolo will be glad he picked Bradford over Suh in this year's draft. There's nothing more important in football than a franchise QB.

- The NFC East will actually be one of the weakest division in the NFL this year. Kevin Kolb looks below-average as a QB and the Eagles WR corps is overrated. The Giants defense will be slightly improved, but nowhere near elite, and Eli Manning will have to throw alot this year, and he's no Peyton. The Cowboys have looked listless and disinterested all preseason, and the O-Line will be a total disaster this year, and once the O-Line fails, Tony Romo will fold like a lawn chair. The Redskins will be improved with McNabb as their QB, but there's no way McNabb makes it through the season without suffering some kind of injuries that derail the Redskin season.

i can't even begin to say how stupid and irrelevant the bolded part is. WHO THE **** CARES? Eli was hurt and carried the team last year and was excellent. He's no Peyton? sorry he's not one of the best QB's, arguably of all time (talking in terms of changing the game, brains, all around talent etc). Just because they're brothers doesn't mean they're the same person. just that's the stupidest knock on Eli. and last I checked, they both have the same amount of rings. I'm sorry, but when people say that it's just terrible

Shiver
09-05-2010, 01:34 PM
Not really, because the whole premise is that when a team relies so heavily as a "superstar" that they perform better without him. Technically we saw the beginnings of that last year. Their offense stalled when they were forced to give him carries to feed his ego, especially in the red-zone. It's like the Dolphins when they went further into the playoffs in 2000 after Dan Marino retired.

vikes_28
09-05-2010, 01:53 PM
I can't believe the people who are saying the Vikings will miss the playoffs. I mean, I'm not saying the Vikings are going to win the superbowl, but I can sure as hell say that they will win the NFC North and make the Playoffs.

PoopSandwich
09-05-2010, 02:06 PM
I can't believe the people who are saying the Vikings will miss the playoffs. I mean, I'm not saying the Vikings are going to win the superbowl, but I can sure as hell say that they will win the NFC North and make the Playoffs.

You can sure as hell say that the Packers have no chance of winning that division?

Shiver
09-05-2010, 02:11 PM
Minnesota has a lot of red flags for a huge implosion:

Bad coach
Old QB
Injured weapons
Age
Weak Secondary

On paper they should still make the playoffs, but when you live by the Favre you die by the Favre. If they start slow then except the Childress vs. Favre angle to drive the team apart.

Sportsfan486
09-05-2010, 02:17 PM
I can't believe the people who are saying the Vikings will miss the playoffs. I mean, I'm not saying the Vikings are going to win the superbowl, but I can sure as hell say that they will win the NFC North and make the Playoffs.

Oh, that's right. You got the magical Favre last year and not the "I'm going to throw away 3-6 games we should have won" Favre that everyone else got.

I'm looking forward to seeing your reaction as you experience that Favre and top out at 8-8.

Shiver
09-05-2010, 02:23 PM
I have a feeling Favre will make up for the seven intercepti... err gunslings with twenty + gunslings this year. Especially without a leaping 6'4" wide receiver to catch his jump balls. (they should've traded for Vincent Jackson)

NY+Giants=NYG
09-05-2010, 03:44 PM
Guys, guys guys.. It doesn't matter if Brett F throws 9 ints or 1000000000 ints. As long as he has that child like smile and enthusiasm on his face, no one will care. Right? Isn't that how it works?

Shiver
09-05-2010, 03:46 PM
ESPN's reaction to a 20 interception, failing season for Brett Favre: Yeah, just Brett being Brett. What a gunslinger, what a winner, what a man. **** me Brett, **** me hard.

King Carls 5 Year Plan
09-05-2010, 04:21 PM
I definitely agree with the Favre having a down turn season. He, statistically, had his best season of his HoF career last year, at age 40. It is highly improbable that he could duplicate that again. Instead, it is much more likely that Favre will return to the 16.68 INTs per season in his career and even more likely that he could go up to 18.43 INTs he has avged over the last 7 years (including 3 seasons of 20+) and that includes his all-time best 7 INT of last season as a huge avg reducer. The Vikings have large secondary issues, WR health concerns, an over the hill QB that blew his "resurgent" wad last season and a coach that seems to be a dead man walking (I can't see him keeping his job after this year unless they win the SB). It's pretty easy to see why others, not wearing purple glasses, could be skeptical. They do still have AD, Jared Allen and the Williams Bros. There is reason to have hope. I think the idea that they are a lock for the division is pretty iffy. GB has a lot less question marks and Rogers is the real deal. I'll take a great QB in his prime over a great QB way over the hill any day.

Shiver
09-05-2010, 04:32 PM
I would be shocked if the Packers don't win that division. The Lions are not a team to be slept on either, I think Stafford, Johnson and Best are the real deal and that D-Line looks formidable. If only they had a decent secondary.

BeerBaron
09-05-2010, 04:46 PM
I would be shocked if the Packers don't win that division. The Lions are not a team to be slept on either, I think Stafford, Johnson and Best are the real deal and that D-Line looks formidable. If only they had a decent secondary.

Their secondary isn't just bad, it might be the worst in the league, especially at CB. Delmas is the only light of hope. Any games they win are going to be shootouts, and I don't know if their o-line or Stafford should be trusted to do that regularly just yet.

I think the Packers should win the division too, especially since the Vikings have regressing lately. The injury to Rice, their o-line looking like crap, Favre going into the season already hurt with a bullseye on him.....ick.

But as has been mentioned in a few different threads, that Packers defense is sooooo suspect. Yeah, they were 2nd in the league last year, but they got torched repeatidly in meaningful games by legit QBs/offenses. And those are exactly the type of offenses they'll have to face when they make it to the post season.

Sportsfan486
09-05-2010, 05:49 PM
But as has been mentioned in a few different threads, that Packers defense is sooooo suspect. Yeah, they were 2nd in the league last year, but they got torched repeatidly in meaningful games by legit QBs/offenses. And those are exactly the type of offenses they'll have to face when they make it to the post season.

Couple of notes here.

People need to stop referring to the Packer's defense as suspect. Our defense is far from suspect. Our CORNERBACKS are suspect but our front-7 is one of the best in football and our safeties are excellent. We could easily have the best run D in football this year. There's maybe, MAYBE, 5 teams in the league without "suspect" cornerbacks. Passing offenses are just too good these days and the rules basically bend corners over a table.

If we're talking about winning the division, the Packer's play two big-time passing offenses in the regular season this year. Patriots and Cowboys (sorry Vikes, but without Rice and without Favre's last season you won't be elite.) Then we face two next tier (Giants, Falcons.) Vikings won't have Rice for either game. So that's FOUR games against good passing offenses. That sets up extremely well for us to win the division. Vikings play four elite passing offenses (Saints, Cowboys, Patriots, Packers xs) all while without Rice.

Playoffs, well, that may be a different story.

BeerBaron
09-05-2010, 05:53 PM
Playoffs, well, that may be a different story.

You pretty much just agreed with my post in a lengthy fashion by ending with this statement.....

I even said in there I think they should win the division. Playoffs...indeed a different story.

Morton
09-05-2010, 07:21 PM
Yeah, the thing with the Packers D is that Dom Capers is a very smart defensive coordinator who is very good at giving different 3-4 looks to cover up a weak secondary.

Typically speaking those types of defenses will demolish scrub quarterbacks, but will be exposed against strong passing attacks with smart QBs who know how to beat the blitz. I.E. in 2009, the defense put up amazing numbers except when they got completely shredded by Kurt Warner and Ben Roethlisberger.

So basically speaking, the secondary is the only real weakness on the Packers this year, and it should be better with Morgan Burnett who, so far, looks like a potentially elite cover safety with turnover skills. And Aaron Rodgers will keep them in every game.

BeerBaron
09-05-2010, 07:26 PM
Typically speaking those types of defenses will demolish scrub quarterbacks, but will be exposed against strong passing attacks with smart QBs who know how to beat the blitz. I.E. in 2009, the defense put up amazing numbers except when they got completely shredded by Kurt Warner and Ben Roethlisberger.


And Brett Favre. Twice.

Rosebud
09-06-2010, 02:07 AM
Morton, you do realize that Eli's probably going to be throwing the ball less this year since Bradshaw and Jacobs aren't injured yet, right?

GB12
09-06-2010, 02:41 AM
Morton, you do realize that Eli's probably going to be throwing the ball less this year since Bradshaw and Jacobs aren't injured yet, right?
You do realize that last year Eli had the second fewest attempts since becoming a full time starter? He's had 500+ attempts 4 out of 5 years, that probably won't change this year.

SenorGato
09-06-2010, 03:48 AM
The Titans are overrated.

The Giants are really, really underrated. Buy Eli Manning stock.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2010, 10:17 AM
Lots of good posts in here.

I'm worried about the Giants defense. Supposedly its going to be a bend but don't break scheme, aka Tampa 2.

I just don't get it. Why on earth would you run that scheme with our personnel?

I'll give Fewell a couple of games before I completely throw him under the bus, but I'm not a big fan so far.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2010, 11:04 AM
Here's another thought:

The Left Tackle position has become overrated. If I made a truths thread, this would have been one of my truths. Look at how many dominant offenses in the league have dominant left tackles.

GB: Avg LT
SD: Avg LT
Indy: Below avg LT
Pats: Below avg LT
Texans: Avg LT
Cowboys: Avg
Vikings: Avg
Saints: Below avg

The list goes on and on. You don't need a dominant LT, it's the most overdrafted position in football now. The Center has become the new Left Tackle, having a great Center is important, and the RT is more important now than it used to be bc so many teams are putting pass rushers on the other side.

But the LT position is not as important as it used to be, and its no longer the safest position to draft anymore either. Look at the growing # of busts at LT being taken in the top 10.

Why is this happening? Bc its being overdrafted, and when you overdraft a position, the # of busts increase bc they are taken higher than they should be.

BeerBaron
09-06-2010, 11:09 AM
Here's another thought:

The Left Tackle position has become overrated. If I made a truths thread, this would have been one of my truths. Look at how many dominant offenses in the league have dominant left tackles.

GB: Avg LT
SD: Avg LT
Indy: Below avg LT
Pats: Below avg LT
Texans: Avg LT
Cowboys: Avg
Vikings: Avg
Saints: Below avg

The list goes on and on. You don't need a dominant LT, it's the most overdrafted position in football now. The Center has become the new Left Tackle, having a great Center is important, and the RT is more important now than it used to be bc so many teams are putting pass rushers on the other side.

But the LT position is not as important as it used to be, and its no longer the safest position to draft anymore either. Look at the growing # of busts at LT being taken in the top 10.

Why is this happening? Bc its being overdrafted, and when you overdraft a position, the # of busts increase bc they are taken higher than they should be.

Look at the QBs of all of those teams. Everyone one of them is great-elite. When you have the great pocket presence of those QBs and the ability to read the defense, you'll get by without great blindside protection. Even a below average LT is going to win a one on one battle with a great DE more often than not...and if the QB can simply slide away from the pressure or adjust the blocking pre-snap to help out that side to make up for the rest of the time, the offense will be fine.

Also, with most 3-4 defenses, the elite pass rushers are starting so far to the outside that they're almost always blocked by TEs and RBs...the tackles don't even touch that all that often.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2010, 11:13 AM
Look at the QBs of all of those teams. Everyone one of them is great-elite. When you have the great pocket presence of those QBs and the ability to read the defense, you'll get by without great blindside protection. Even a below average LT is going to win a one on one battle with a great DE more often than not...and if the QB can simply slide away from the pressure or adjust the blocking pre-snap to help out that side to make up for the rest of the time, the offense will be fine.

Also, with most 3-4 defenses, the elite pass rushers are starting so far to the outside that they're almost always blocked by TEs and RBs...the tackles don't even touch that all that often.

I agree, which is why its being an overdrafted position. A lot of those teams who take LTs, often need a qb more than the LT, but go with the "safer" pick.

Or they pass up on a position that can give you more benefit for a LT just bc its safer and its believed that you need a dominant LT.

You made an excellent point earlier about how bigger olinemen will fall bc ppl are obsessing over pass protections and smaller linemen who can pull for spread offenses.

That was an excellent point too. Some team is gonna wise up and build a smashmouth team (Cinncy looks like the team thats doing it) and go against the grain.

Crickett
09-06-2010, 11:23 AM
i can't even begin to say how stupid and irrelevant the bolded part is. WHO THE **** CARES?

Everybody cares. And everybody has always cared. Even going back to Eli as a draft prospect, the only thing I ever heard about Eli was that hE'S pEyTOn mANnInGs' BrOthER/cL0ne!!! TeH ChARgers NEed him INsTEad 0f DaT bUST Dru BEES!!!!!
I apologize for typing like that.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2010, 11:26 AM
I think Eli's perception by the masses would be significantly different if he wasn't a Manning.

Being 2nd fiddle to Peyton is part of the reason why he's so underrated.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2010, 11:33 AM
To add to the "left tackle is overrated" discussion, the Giants were considered by the masses (although I disagree) to have had the best oline in the league in 07 and 08 (i disagree strongly actually).

And we had/have David freakin Diehl at LT.

Crickett
09-06-2010, 11:43 AM
To add to the "left tackle is overrated" discussion, the Giants were considered by the masses (although I disagree) to have had the best oline in the league in 07 and 08 (i disagree strongly actually).

And we had/have David freakin Diehl at LT.


Career highlights and awards

* Pro Bowl Selection (2009)
* Super Bowl champion (XLII)
* AP NFL All-Pro Second Team 2008

"And we had/have David freakin Diehl at LT" does not help your argument.

bigbluedefense
09-06-2010, 11:50 AM
Career highlights and awards

* Pro Bowl Selection (2009)
* Super Bowl champion (XLII)
* AP NFL All-Pro Second Team 2008

"And we had/have David freakin Diehl at LT" does not help your argument.

Pro bowls don't mean ****, nor does him being part of the SB team. In fact, that helps my argument bc we won a SB with him getting OWNED by Adalius Thomas all game. He gave up at least 2 sacks in the SB. Diehl had a terrible SB.

David Diehl is a PB caliber LG, but an avg LT. I love the guy, but he is avg.

SenorGato
09-06-2010, 01:36 PM
Here's another thought:

The Left Tackle position has become overrated. If I made a truths thread, this would have been one of my truths. Look at how many dominant offenses in the league have dominant left tackles.

GB: Avg LT
SD: Avg LT
Indy: Below avg LT
Pats: Below avg LT
Texans: Avg LT
Cowboys: Avg
Vikings: Avg
Saints: Below avg

The list goes on and on. You don't need a dominant LT, it's the most overdrafted position in football now. The Center has become the new Left Tackle, having a great Center is important, and the RT is more important now than it used to be bc so many teams are putting pass rushers on the other side.

But the LT position is not as important as it used to be, and its no longer the safest position to draft anymore either. Look at the growing # of busts at LT being taken in the top 10.

Why is this happening? Bc its being overdrafted, and when you overdraft a position, the # of busts increase bc they are taken higher than they should be.

+ 1,000,000

Left guards and centers have been getting paid or targeted more recently. I agree with you on Diehl too...average NFL athlete who doesn't come close to the superathlete people imagine LTs much be...but he gets the job done anyway.

The thing about OL play that most people ignore...the thing about football in general that gets ignored is that there are multiple individuals working as a unit. The reason any OL works is because a group of individually talented guys work together very well.

BeerBaron
09-06-2010, 08:57 PM
I agree, which is why its being an overdrafted position. A lot of those teams who take LTs, often need a qb more than the LT, but go with the "safer" pick.

Or they pass up on a position that can give you more benefit for a LT just bc its safer and its believed that you need a dominant LT.

You made an excellent point earlier about how bigger olinemen will fall bc ppl are obsessing over pass protections and smaller linemen who can pull for spread offenses.

That was an excellent point too. Some team is gonna wise up and build a smashmouth team (Cinncy looks like the team thats doing it) and go against the grain.


If they go against the grain and build that smashmouth team, in addition to them drafting these pure 4-3 guys who fall that you mentioned initially, they could have a scary team.

It's going to be all about Carson Palmer there. If he plays well, that Bengals team could be a real Superbowl threat....perhaps one of the least heralded in a while.

Auron
09-06-2010, 10:11 PM
Just wanted to get some input in on the O-line discussion.

I think the Offensive line is truly a unit where the sum is greater than it's parts so to say.. You really need a unit the works well in unison, and is cohesive. You can have an elite talent at Tackle, or Guard but that doesn't ensure your Offense success if the other positions along that line don't hold their weight, or if you're constantly shifting it around due to injury. You need a consistent group that know how to feed off each other.

I'd say you can get by with decent talent at the Offensive line as long as you have a very fundamentally sound scheme, and a QB who knows how to play "on time" and get the ball out quickly, or get rid of it... that's something that the upper echelon QB's in this league do constantly they don't stress their Offensive line's too much by holding the ball, they make their reads quickly according to the play call and if nothing's there they look for the check down, or they throw it away.

A lot of people thought the Saints would suffer a pretty big drop off when Pro Bowl, Left Tackle Jammal Brown was lost before last season started due to injury but the team managed to scheme around it, and the Offensive Line managed to have one of their best seasons.. especially in run blocking without him.... which led to his eventual trade.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-06-2010, 10:21 PM
Pro bowls don't mean ****, nor does him being part of the SB team. In fact, that helps my argument bc we won a SB with him getting OWNED by Adalius Thomas all game. He gave up at least 2 sacks in the SB. Diehl had a terrible SB.

David Diehl is a PB caliber LG, but an avg LT. I love the guy, but he is avg.

I think it's because QBs impact the offensive line's reputation more than most people realize. Get a QB out there with a great pocket presence and a quick release and your OL can be mediocre and look like a great pass protecting line.

Brent
09-06-2010, 10:25 PM
I think chemistry is the big thing. O-linemen who are not familiar with one another are never going to succeed.

SenorGato
09-07-2010, 12:08 AM
You can sure as hell say that the Packers have no chance of winning that division?

I said the Titans were overrated...they're vastly underrated when compared to the Packers.