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View Full Version : Phillip Rivers >>>>> Aaron Rodgers.


SenorGato
09-09-2010, 04:16 AM
I just want that out there before the season starts.

Rivers is the best under 30 QB in the league that I can think of right now at 5:15 AM.

AntoinCD
09-09-2010, 04:26 AM
I really don't think you can go wrong at the moment and comparing them is going to be tough because Rodgers is in a better situation IMO. I would bet that barring injury Aaron Rodgers has a statistically better season than Rivers but that isn't indicative of Rodgers neccessarily being better than Rivers.

After Brady, Manning and Brees I would take both of these guys over anyone else in a heartbeat

Werowance
09-09-2010, 04:33 AM
No way, Aaron Rodgers is pushing to be on the same tier as Manning and Brees. Guys in the NFL fear Aaron Rodgers, Antrel Rolle said "I'll face Drew Brees any day of the week before I face [Rodgers] again", Ryan Clark said "Aaron Rodgers is an animal. Period, point blank." (http://twitter.com/RyanClark25/status/22227922283) and that "If Brees, Manning, & Brady are the pole leaders at qb then Aaron Rodgers is approaching fast of the straightaway" (http://twitter.com/RyanClark25/status/22299426773). Actual players dread going against Rodgers, its not just some internet message board hype, the hype is justified.

Rodgers is the best under 30 QB in the NFL.

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 04:40 AM
Ryan Clark sucks/has a vagina.

Werowance
09-09-2010, 04:50 AM
Ryan Clark sucks/has a vagina.

Prove it?.. Clark has been a productive, starting player on one of the best defenses in the NFL year in and year out. And even if he did suck, he is in the NFL which almost automatically makes his statements more knowledgeable and superior to yours.

And does Rolle suck/have a vagina too? I mean he said he feared Rodgers more than Brees...

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 04:59 AM
Prove it?.. Clark has been a productive, starting player on one of the best defenses in the NFL year in and year out. And even if he did suck, he is in the NFL which almost automatically makes his statements more knowledgeable and superior to yours.

And does Rolle suck/have a vagina too? I mean he said he feared Rodgers more than Brees...

Fine...I'm not searching the internet for players thoughts on Rivers...Rivers > Rodgers.

Only one >.

He's got 4 more TD passes the past two years with 100+ less pass attempts...Not quite a Ryan Clark opinion, but perhaps some sign of ability.

Werowance
09-09-2010, 05:16 AM
He's got 4 more TD passes the past two years with 100+ less pass attempts...Not quite a Ryan Clark opinion, but perhaps some sign of ability.

And that is including Rodgers first year starting.

Rodgers first two seasons starting:
58 touchdowns, 20 interceptions, 8,472 yards, 7.8 YPA, a 64+% completion rate, 523 rushing yards and 9 rushing touchdowns
Rivers first two seasons starting:
43 touchdowns, 24 interceptions, 6,540 yards, 6.9 YPA, 61+% completion rate, 82 rushing yards and 1 rushing TD

Clearly Rodgers is off to a much better start than Rivers was.

And last season Rodgers threw 2 more touchdowns, 2 less interceptions not to mention Rodgers led a more potent offense. One could easily argue that Rodgers is already better than Rivers and Rodgers has only started 2 seasons compared to Rivers 4 starting seasons.

AntoinCD
09-09-2010, 05:31 AM
And that is including Rodgers first year starting.

Rodgers first two seasons starting:
58 touchdowns, 20 interceptions, 8,472 yards, 7.8 YPA, a 64+% completion rate, 523 rushing yards and 9 rushing touchdowns
Rivers first two seasons starting:
43 touchdowns, 24 interceptions, 6,540 yards, 6.9 YPA, 61+% completion rate, 82 rushing yards and 1 rushing TD

Clearly Rodgers is off to a much better start than Rivers was.

And last season Rodgers threw 2 more touchdowns, 2 less interceptions not to mention Rodgers led a more potent offense. One could easily argue that Rodgers is already better than Rivers and Rodgers has only started 2 seasons compared to Rivers 4 starting seasons.


One could also easily argue that Rodgers has more weapons to his disposal.

I would gladly take GBs receiving options and offensive system over the Chargers.

It also has to be noted that the NFC North isn't laden with top pass defenses whereas the AFC West has Nnamdi Asomghua and Champ Bailey, two of the top CBs of the decade, if not the top two.

Also in Rivers first two seasons the Chargers were definitely a run first team with LT and that big O-line. Vincent Jackson only started to breakout when the Chargers put the ball more in Rivers hands.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2010, 05:51 AM
Prove it?.. Clark has been a productive, starting player on one of the best defenses in the NFL year in and year out. And even if he did suck, he is in the NFL which almost automatically makes his statements more knowledgeable and superior to yours.

And does Rolle suck/have a vagina too? I mean he said he feared Rodgers more than Brees...


Wrong, big time, haha.

Rolle feared Rodgers more than Brees because he was heading into a game with Brees, then got his ass taken to school, ahhaha.

Anyway, difference is negligible, neither is as good as Brees or Manning, no real argument for them either.

Werowance
09-09-2010, 06:01 AM
One could also easily argue that Rodgers has more weapons to his disposal.

I would gladly take GBs receiving options and offensive system over the Chargers.

It also has to be noted that the NFC North isn't laden with top pass defenses whereas the AFC West has Nnamdi Asomghua and Champ Bailey, two of the top CBs of the decade, if not the top two.

Also in Rivers first two seasons the Chargers were definitely a run first team with LT and that big O-line. Vincent Jackson only started to breakout when the Chargers put the ball more in Rivers hands.

One could also argue that San Diego being a run heavy team is all the more reason that Philip Rivers should've been more efficient than he was in his first two years starting. In Rivers' first two seasons he had LT in his prime, Michael Turner and a great offensive line. He was able to lean on that run game and all he had to do was manage the game, yet he was still far less efficient than Rodgers in terms of YPA, completion % and TD:INT ratio and this is all despite the fact that Rodgers is the focal point of defensive game plans whereas Rivers was not. Rodgers take more focus from the defenses and he still outproduced Rivers in their 2 first years starting.

Plus Aaron Rodgers has the stronger arm, better mechanics and is more mobile while Rivers is more accurate and has better pocket presence. All in all I think they're right on the same level, I just happen to prefer Rodgers, the guy who IMO is already better than Rivers despite being 2 years behind on the 'developmental scale'.

bigbluedefense
09-09-2010, 07:04 AM
Aaron Rodgers is the best qb in the league without a SB.

Its Rodgers, and honestly, its Rodgers by a pretty fair margin.

Mr.Regular
09-09-2010, 07:11 AM
http://www.delmarscene.com/data/photos/quarterbacks.jpg

>

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bpaCKc6TeLM/SpSKFon97aI/AAAAAAAAAkM/P4pAWWR6piQ/s320/Philip+Rivers.jpg

abaddon41_80
09-09-2010, 07:35 AM
OP is 100% correct. As of this point in time Rivers is the better QB than Rodgers. Give it a couple of years, though

soybean
09-09-2010, 08:22 AM
Rodgers's ability to run is one of the most underrated facets of his game.

LonghornsLegend
09-09-2010, 08:55 AM
I hope Rodgers makes the playoffs this year again(which I'm pretty sure he will as they can win that division), it'll help answer alot of questions I have about him. I want to see his legacy have some more playoff games in it before I base too much of an opinion 1 way or another about him.

vidae
09-09-2010, 09:40 AM
I just want that out there before the season starts.

Rodgers is the best under 30 QB in the league that I can think of right now at 9:39 AM.

Shiver
09-09-2010, 09:51 AM
I love, love Philip Rivers. I think we will see him light it up this year, even without Vincent Jackson. That said Aaron Rodgers is legit and I would bet a lot that his numbers will look better at the end of the year.

P-L
09-09-2010, 09:54 AM
I totally agree, but making these types of threads is pointless.

yourfavestoner
09-09-2010, 10:14 AM
I love, love, love Philip Rivers (won me over forever with that ballsy playoff game on two busted knees against Indy with no Gates or LT).

HOWEVER, other than when he plays Indy, he's been pretty abysmal in the playoffs. He's got a 3-4 record (two of those wins came against bigger choke artist Manning), 8 TDs, 8 INTs, a 79 rating and two inexcusable collapses at home (2006 vs. Pats, 2009 vs. Jets).

I know, I know, not everything is on the QB, but his postseason performance is completely substandard to the regular season. He needs to beat somebody other than Indy.

Aaron Rodgers doesn't even enter the conversation of elite QBs until he wins a playoff game. Love the dude, love his talent, love his numbers, and I think he'll have a great year. But let me know when he wins a playoff game.

ThePudge
09-09-2010, 10:32 AM
So, you don't have to be an elite quarterback to win a playoff game... but to be an elite quarterback you must win a playoff game?

Rodgers was elite last season & he'll be elite this season. He's the one player I think has legitimate potential to take Manning's reign as best Quarterback in football. Right now Drew Brees is up there, but he's only been in this conversation for two years; Rodgers is next.

Philip Rivers is a great player, a Top 5 Quarterback; still, I'm with the group of people that believe Rodgers could easily be the best player in football after this season.

LonghornsLegend
09-09-2010, 10:36 AM
I love, love, love Philip Rivers (won me over forever with that ballsy playoff game on two busted knees against Indy with no Gates or LT).


Me too, I'll never forget that game. It was simply amazing watching him hobble around out there knowing he could be wrecking his career, and he had a really good game on top of not being able to plant all that well. Though it's pretty tough to get a good look at his playoff resume since he has Norv Turner as his HC and I don't know that I really trust him to gameplan properly in the playoffs either so I'd give him alot of the blame for early playoff exits.


This will be a big year for both though. I want to see how Rivers adapts without Vincent Jackson and if they fold early again in the playoffs, and if Rodgers can win a playoff game(not that the game last year was his fault, but he still needs to win one).

Vikes99ej
09-09-2010, 10:37 AM
This Aaron Rodgers dick sucking fest is amazing.

Matt Ryan > everyone

Werowance
09-09-2010, 10:46 AM
This Aaron Rodgers dick sucking fest is amazing.

Matt Ryan > everyone

Seriously? I think we might just have a biased Vikings fan on our hands folks. Who would have thought, a Vikings fan who hates Aaron Rodgers.

Call me crazy but I'll take the guy who threw for 8 more touchdowns, 1/2 the interceptions, 1500 more yards, completed 8% more of their passes, had 1.7 more yards per attempt and also had 4 more rushing touchdowns. But again, I might just be crazy.

Vikes99ej
09-09-2010, 10:55 AM
Seriously? I think we might just have a biased Vikings fan on our hands folks. Who would have thought, a Vikings fan who hates Aaron Rodgers.

Call me crazy but I'll take the guy who threw for 8 more touchdowns, 1/2 the interceptions, 1500 more yards, completed 8% more of their passes, had 1.7 more yards per attempt and also had 4 more rushing touchdowns. But again, I might just be crazy.

Just watch, Matt Ryan is gonna go for 38 and 13 this year.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2010, 11:00 AM
I like how you can be in the discussion for best QB without putting up the best yards, completion percentage, touchdowns, or win any superbowls, or lead the top ranked offense.

I thought you had to be the most statistically dominant, or "just win" but apparently you just gotta be top 5 and not win.

Vikes99ej
09-09-2010, 11:06 AM
I like how you can be in the discussion for best QB without putting up the best yards, completion percentage, touchdowns, or win any superbowls, or lead the top ranked offense.

I thought you had to be the most statistically dominant, or "just win" but apparently you just gotta be top 5 and not win.

Drew Brees isn't good, the Saints just used wacky voodoo magic to win games.

ThePudge
09-09-2010, 11:20 AM
I like how you can be in the discussion for best QB without putting up the best yards, completion percentage, touchdowns, or win any superbowls, or lead the top ranked offense.

I thought you had to be the most statistically dominant, or "just win" but apparently you just gotta be top 5 and not win.

Stick to that opinion & let yourself be shown up. Anyone that has not forseen a breakout from Aaron Rodgers didn't watch football a year ago. The guy made major strides & is just about as good as it gets in every major aspect of playing the Quarterback position. I didn't say he was the best LAST YEAR; in fact, few would argue that a year ago Drew Brees or Peyton Manning was the best.

People are projecting him to be the best this year.
Last season Aaron Rodgers had good receivers (not great, good) but a treacherous Offensive Line, especially early in the season. He rarely had ample time to throw & teams came at him. Still, he managed to cement his name among the Top 5 QBs in the game in only his second season as a starter.

He routinely torched the best defenses in football (see Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Minnesota)

Baltimore - 26-40 263 yds 3 Td 2 Int
Cincinnati - 21-39 261 yds 1 Td
Pittsburgh - 26-48 383 yds 3 Td + 1 Rushing Td
Minnesota - 26-37 384 yds 2 Td 1 Int
Minnesota - 26-41 287 yds 3 Td

So, in five games against 4 of the top 6 defenses in football he put up 1,578 yds 12 Td 3 Int. But, no, he couldn't have been elite last season... he lost a playoff game in which he threw for 423 yds 4 Td's, completed 67% of his passes, and ran for a Td. Quarterbacks who can't suck it up and line up at Safety have no business being elite apparently.

In 2010 his Offensive Line is healthier, deeper, and has added First Round pick Bryan Bulaga as insurance early on. He has a breakout Tight End in the making with Jermichael Finley, who could likewise rise to the cream of the crop for his position with a big season. His young receivers: Jennings, Jones, and Nelson all have another year of experience with Rodgers under their belt & should only be more comfortable this year. He should still have a pretty strong running game with Ryan Grant as the team's bell-cow.

So, what is the problem with picking Aaron Rodgers to be a Top 1-2-3 Quarterback in 10'? We can all pretty much agree he wasn't a Top 2 guy last season, but he wasn't far off & he should only get better.

bigbluedefense
09-09-2010, 11:22 AM
Both of these qbs have to prove to me that they're capable of excelling in the playoffs.

Like YFS said, Rivers outside of playing Indy (who has a mediocre defense) hasn't done well in the postseason. And Rodgers has looked amazing, but I just need to see a larger sample size.

I won't put that loss on Rodgers to Arizona, but let's not forget, before the sack/TD, Rodgers had a wide open Greg Jennings deep to win the game in OT and just flat out missed him.

So they both need to show more when it counts.

prock
09-09-2010, 11:40 AM
I would contend that the Vikings secondary is ******, the Steelers weren't an elite defense, and those numbers against Cincy and and Baltimore aren't indicative of a torching.

Splat
09-09-2010, 11:41 AM
Aaron Rodgers is the best qb in the league without a SB.

Its Rodgers, and honestly, its Rodgers by a pretty fair margin.

I think that is taking it a little to far.

bigbluedefense
09-09-2010, 11:43 AM
I could care less how many top notch defenses you torch in the regular season. Peyton torches every single one of em in the regular season.

The post season is an entirely different animal.


Having said that, Rodgers lit it up against the Cardinals. But that one throw he missed just bugs me a little. Thats why I want to see a bigger sample size.

ThePudge
09-09-2010, 11:49 AM
I would contend that the Vikings secondary is ******, the Steelers weren't an elite defense, and those numbers against Cincy and and Baltimore aren't indicative of a torching.

Considering he didn't have any time at all, I'd say he definitely torched us. It really doesn't usually matter if your secondary is average-bad when you can get a consistent pass rush on a guy the way the Vikings/Bengals did against Rodgers. Credit his poise for hanging in there & playing the next down.

Against the Bengals he gave the Packers a chance to win in a game they had no business winning in. Aside from the Bears game, the Bengals didn't play a better game all year than when they faced the Packers; however, despite extreme pressure & two of the better corners in football, Rodgers found a way to keep his team in the game until the final seconds.

He's a good quarterback when it comes to getting the ball out of his hands, but he still took a beating last season behind that Offensive Line. Against Cincinnati he took 6 sacks, against Minnesota 8 & 6. Imagine what he could have done with those Saints WR/TE, running game, behind that line, in that dome.... Or just wait to see what he can do this year.

Jvig43
09-09-2010, 11:50 AM
I think its a little early to be saying Rodgers is on a top tier level like Manning and Brady.

Having said that, last year I wouldnt shut up about how Rodgers is going to be amazing and tear it up. Its hard to compare Rivers and Rodgers because Rodgers hasnt had as much playing time as Rivers, and Rivers has been one of the best Qbs in the league the past couple of years (not to say Rodgers wasnt). This argument will settle itself at the end of this season when all is said and done, and then people can pull up their arguments and flex their muscles and blah blah blah.

Breaker
09-09-2010, 11:52 AM
This Aaron Rodgers dick sucking fest is amazing.

Matt Ryan > everyone
Get real, brah.

We all know you would suck a thousand cocks, and Rodger's, to have him on your team; replacing the unreliable, inconsistent, fossilized interception-sarus. you currently have as your starting QB.

K Train
09-09-2010, 11:53 AM
i really love what aaron rodgers has done with his career post brett favre. First round QBs never sit that long and he just patiently waited year after year now he looks like a master of the position out there when he runs the offense. he just moves the ball so good.

id take him over rivers i think, i think rivers is a great QB and i love how much of a prick he is but rodgers just has something about him, especially since he seems to have always had a lackluster running game that isnt exactly instilling fear into the defense and he shows great toughness as he gets the **** kicked out of him behind that line.

cant really go wrong with either one

Vikes99ej
09-09-2010, 11:54 AM
Get real, brah.

We all know you would suck a thousand cocks, and Rodger's, to have him on your team; replacing the unreliable, inconsistent, fossilized interception-sarus. you currently have as your starting QB.

http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/46765fab_5e58_88e2.jpg

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 11:55 AM
We're all going to find out this year that Rodgers > Rivers but then Rivers gets the sympathy of not having Vincent Jackson for whatever time period Jackson misses. Point being, if someone is dead set that Rivers is better than Rodgers as his post indicates, he'll find any way to defend Rivers and make excuses.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 11:57 AM
Just watch, Matt Ryan is gonna go for 38 and 13 this year.

This Aaron Rodgers dick sucking fest is amazing.

Matt Ryan > everyone
I guess it's fun to try to be different for you. Just because he's on the Packers, you're not obligated to make ignorant comments relating to a discussion involving him. Matt Ryan has done absolutely nothing to indicate he's better than a third of the QBs in the league.

prock
09-09-2010, 11:58 AM
Considering he didn't have any time at all, I'd say he definitely torched us. It really doesn't usually matter if your secondary is average-bad when you can get a consistent pass rush on a guy the way the Vikings/Bengals did against Rodgers. Credit his poise for hanging in there & playing the next down.

Against the Bengals he gave the Packers a chance to win in a game they had no business winning in. Aside from the Bears game, the Bengals didn't play a better game all year than when they faced the Packers; however, despite extreme pressure & two of the better corners in football, Rodgers found a way to keep his team in the game until the final seconds.

He's a good quarterback when it comes to getting the ball out of his hands, but he still took a beating last season behind that Offensive Line. Against Cincinnati he took 6 sacks, against Minnesota 8 & 6. Imagine what he could have done with those Saints WR/TE, running game, behind that line, in that dome.... Or just wait to see what he can do this year.

I am not saying he sucks. I know he is a damn good quarterback. But in all honesty I would take the Packers weapons over the Saints, so that point is pretty irrelevant. And I don't think Rodgers is going to have any more time this year than he did last year.

prock
09-09-2010, 12:00 PM
We're all going to find out this year that Rodgers > Rivers but then Rivers gets the sympathy of not having Vincent Jackson for whatever time period Jackson misses. Point being, if someone is dead set that Rivers is better than Rodgers as his post indicates, he'll find any way to defend Rivers and make excuses.

Apologies to Matt Ryan for not being better than Aaron Rodgers after 2 years in the league, when Rodgers got to sit for four years before he started.

That being said, Rodgers is damn good. But I ******* hate him. And saying Matt Ryan is going to have a better year is as much fact as saying the opposite.

Vikes99ej
09-09-2010, 12:07 PM
I hope Aaron Rodgers does awesome this year. Finley is on my fantasy team! But to anoint him the next Peyton Manning is ridiculous. He should probably win a playoff game first. And beat Brett Favre. This doesn't make Rivers look any better either. To me they are both great young QBs, and I have to give a little of an edge to Aaron.

Werowance
09-09-2010, 12:11 PM
Just watch, Matt Ryan is gonna go for 38 and 13 this year.

Okay... Until he does that he has no stake in the claim for best QB under 30 years old in the NFL, especially if you're basing that claim off of something you think is going to happen.

LonghornsLegend
09-09-2010, 12:12 PM
This Aaron Rodgers dick sucking fest is amazing.

Matt Ryan > everyone

I don't get it, what's so hard about just giving a guy his props?


The problem with that ridiculous statement about Matt Ryan is that Aaron Rodgers had 35 total TD's last year and 7 picks, 32 total TD's the year before and 13 picks. When the mot TD's Matt Ryan have accumulated has been 23.


Come on now, Rodgers has gotten alot better the past 2 years, posted numbers better then Peyton in both of those years Peyton won the NFL MVP, and by all accounts he and the weapons around him are getting better. Why all the hate? And if you wanted to use a silly comparison to end the rant for one it makes you look like a homer who is just jealous and you could at least choose a guy who had a track record that looked decent.

bigbluedefense
09-09-2010, 12:13 PM
I need both of these guys to have great years. I got Malcolm Floyd and Jermichael Finley in one of my leagues.

Feel free to throw it all day to Ryan Mathews too Phillip. In fact, that would be the best case scenario.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:16 PM
Apologies to Matt Ryan for not being better than Aaron Rodgers after 2 years in the league, when Rodgers got to sit for four years before he started.

That being said, Rodgers is damn good. But I ******* hate him. And saying Matt Ryan is going to have a better year is as much fact as saying the opposite.
They've both started for two years. Maybe when Rivers and Rodgers turn 30, Ryan coudl have a shot to be the best U30 QB. Until then, he doesn't have a shot. He's not as talented or productive as either of them and they're just getting better.

prock
09-09-2010, 12:23 PM
They've both started for two years. Maybe when Rivers and Rodgers turn 30, Ryan coudl have a shot to be the best U30 QB. Until then, he doesn't have a shot. He's not as talented or productive as either of them and they're just getting better.

Rodgers and Rivers were in much better situations, getting to sit for 3 or 4 years. So criticizing his productivity is pretty stupid since he has been in the league for 2 ******* years. At this stage in Rodgers career he wasn't even sniffing the starting job so you can't compare.

ThePudge
09-09-2010, 12:25 PM
I am not saying he sucks. I know he is a damn good quarterback. But in all honesty I would take the Packers weapons over the Saints, so that point is pretty irrelevant. And I don't think Rodgers is going to have any more time this year than he did last year.

I would this year, though I wouldn't have last season. The Packers are very young, Jermichael Finley was just starting to put it together. /

There's no way in hell that anyone would have taken the Packers Offensive Line over the Saints. Drew Brees was well protected while Aaron Rodgers really had to grow by leaps & bounds evading pressure/getting the ball out quickly. As to why the Packers OL will be better in 10'? Health. RT Mark Tauscher was sidelined for half the season. In the 7 games he played last year the Pack allowed 15 sacks, though in the games in which he didn't play Green Bay allowed 35. Their starting Left Tackle, Chad Clifton, missed 4 games including both games against Minnesota. I'd say the lack of their veteran tackles definitely HURT the Pack in 09'. This season they are deeper, healthier, and they've added a young talent in Bryan Bulaga who may be a capable replacement were any of their veterans to go down again.

prock
09-09-2010, 12:27 PM
I would this year, though I wouldn't have last season. The Packers are very young, Jermichael Finley was just starting to put it together. /

There's no way in hell that anyone would have taken the Packers Offensive Line over the Saints. Drew Brees was well protected while Aaron Rodgers really had to grow by leaps & bounds evading pressure/getting the ball out quickly. As to why the Packers OL will be better in 10'? Health. RT Mark Tauscher was sidelined for half the season. In the 7 games he played last year the Pack allowed 15 sacks, though in the games in which he didn't play Green Bay allowed 35. Their starting Left Tackle, Chad Clifton, missed 4 games including both games against Minnesota. I'd say the lack of their veteran tackles definitely HURT the Pack in 09'. This season they are deeper, healthier, and they've added a young talent in Bryan Bulaga who may be a capable replacement were any of their veterans to go down again.

I didn't say anything about their line being better than the Saints. I kept that out for a reason. If the Packers ancient bookends get hurt this year, which is likely, Bulaga will get torn up. The Packers line isn't going to be better this year than it was last year.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Rodgers and Rivers were in much better situations, getting to sit for 3 or 4 years. So criticizing his productivity is pretty stupid since he has been in the league for 2 ******* years. At this stage in Rodgers career he wasn't even sniffing the starting job so you can't compare.
Much better situations? It's hard to find a better situation than Roddy White, Michael Turner, and Tony Gonzalez for a QB to step in to. If you're going to argue, which you aren't you're defending someone else's statement, that he's better than Rodgers or Rivers then give me some evidence. If not, then this conversation is over.

TitleTown088
09-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Matt Ryan? GTFO. He's not even in the same category.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:32 PM
I didn't say anything about their line being better than the Saints. I kept that out for a reason. If the Packers ancient bookends get hurt this year, which is likely, Bulaga will get torn up. The Packers line isn't going to be better this year than it was last year.
So you're predicting Rodgers gets sacked 50 times?

Werowance
09-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Matt Ryan? GTFO. He's not even in the same category.

This. Right now Aaron Rodgers >>>> Matt Ryan, maybe in a few years it will be Aaron Rodgers > Matt Ryan.

TitleTown088
09-09-2010, 12:33 PM
So you're predicting Rodgers gets sacked 50 times?

The only thing Rodgers is going to do this season 50 times is throw a TD. :)

prock
09-09-2010, 12:35 PM
So you're predicting Rodgers gets sacked 50 times?

It could, it happened last year, and their line didn't get any better, besides Bulaga, who is a rookie.

TitleTown088
09-09-2010, 12:38 PM
It could, it happened last year, and their line didn't get any better, besides Bulaga, who is a rookie.

It got a lot better if Clifton and tauscher don't both miss half the season again. What line isn't better with both their starting OTs back? Look how many sacks the Pcakers line gave up after those two returned healthy last season. 8 in the final 8 games IIRC.

How's Jared Allen typically do vs cliffy? How does he do vs a Rookie LT?

vidae
09-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Seriously, Matt Ryan doesn't belong in the same sentence as Aaron Rodgers, unless the sentence is "Matt Ryan doesn't belong in the same sentence as Aaron Rodgers."

prock
09-09-2010, 12:39 PM
Much better situations? It's hard to find a better situation than Roddy White, Michael Turner, and Tony Gonzalez for a QB to step in to. If you're going to argue, which you aren't you're defending someone else's statement, that he's better than Rodgers or Rivers then give me some evidence. If not, then this conversation is over.

Did I ever say he is better? Where did I say he is better? Point out where I specifically said he is better. And where did I say Ryan had worse weapons? Point it out, please. I said Ryan started as a rookie and is going into his ******* third year in the league, while Rodgers is going into his 6th, and he got to sit behind Favre for god damn ever. You're reading comprehension is borderline ********. But continue to put words into my mouth while fapping to Aaron Rodgers.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:40 PM
It could, it happened last year, and their line didn't get any better, besides Bulaga, who is a rookie.
We're all healthy.

Part of the reason was the ineffectiveness of right tackle Allen Barbre, who was eventually replaced by Mark Tauscher. Another factor was injuries. Chad Clifton missed several games, forcing left guard Daryn Colledge and later rookie T.J. Lang to fill in at left tackle.

prock
09-09-2010, 12:42 PM
It got a lot better if Clifton and tauscher don't both miss half the season again. What line isn't better with both their starting OTs back? Look how many sacks the Pcakers line gave up after those two returned healthy last season. 8 in the final 8 games IIRC.

How's Jared Allen typically do vs cliffy? How does he do vs a Rookie LT?

Clifton and Tauscher making it through the year without getting injured is highly unlikely, and both are very old. I am saying the Packers offensive line still isn't good.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:43 PM
Did I ever say he is better? Where did I say he is better? Point out where I specifically said he is better. And where did I say Ryan had worse weapons? Point it out, please. I said Ryan started as a rookie and is going into his ******* third year in the league, while Rodgers is going into his 6th, and he got to sit behind Favre for god damn ever. You're reading comprehension is borderline ********. But continue to put words into my mouth while fapping to Aaron Rodgers.
So what exactly was the point you were trying to make? I was assuming you continued on with Vikes' hate towards Rodgers. Apparently that wasn't the case and you were just stating the obvious? We all know Ryan is going in to his third year and Rodgers sat behind Favre. Sorry for assuming you were trying to contribute to a conversation instead of saying the sky is blue.

prock
09-09-2010, 12:45 PM
So what exactly was the point you were trying to make? I was assuming you continued on with Vikes' hate towards Rodgers. Apparently that wasn't the case and you were just stating the obvious? We all know Ryan is going in to his third year and Rodgers sat behind Favre. Sorry for assuming you were trying to contribute to a conversation instead of saying the sky is blue.

Yeah, I was just stating the obvious, and you are arguing against what you called the obvious. My point was that their situations are very different, so to say Ryan will never be as good has no basis because you are judging him so early in his career. But keep putting words into my mouth. It makes you sound real smart.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:48 PM
Yeah, I was just stating the obvious, and you are arguing against what you called the obvious. My point was that their situations are very different, so to say Ryan will never be as good has no basis because you are judging him so early in his career. But keep putting words into my mouth. It makes you sound real smart.
Every situation is different. So by that train of thought, we can't compare anyone because their situation is/was different. I'm not putting words in to your mouth, I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say but I now get that it isn't much of anything.

ThePudge
09-09-2010, 12:51 PM
I didn't say anything about their line being better than the Saints. I kept that out for a reason. If the Packers ancient bookends get hurt this year, which is likely, Bulaga will get torn up. The Packers line isn't going to be better this year than it was last year.

These two guys you're talking about have been pretty durable as a whole. I expect that they'll both play 12+ games in 10'. Their backups are more experienced this time around, there was an injection in talent when they drafted Bryan Bulaga. Lately rookie OL have done pretty much fine & I don't see a reason why Bulaga wouldn't be able to spell Clifton/Tauscher for a short period of time. Green Bay's O-Line won't be worse, they should be slightly better if anything. I really don't see them being as dreadful or quite as banged up as last season.

prock
09-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Every situation is different. So by that train of thought, we can't compare anyone because their situation is/was different. I'm not putting words in to your mouth, I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say but I now get that it isn't much of anything.

You can compare players, but if you want to continue this hyperbolic rant, then by all means go ahead. You said Rodgers is going into his third starting year and so is Ryan, and therefore since Rodgers has been more productive, he will never be nearly as good. I said that is a false statement. And if you want to argue that point, you don't have a case. If you want to keep putting words into my mouth to make yourself sound smarter, go ahead.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 12:56 PM
Green Bay's line will give up less than 35 sacks. After last year, it's a great improvement.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2010, 12:59 PM
Ryan will never be as good as Rodgers because he isn't as talented, or as smart.

Better?

TitleTown088
09-09-2010, 01:09 PM
Clifton and Tauscher making it through the year without getting injured is highly unlikely, and both are very old. I am saying the Packers offensive line still isn't good. When then, it's not a have a Rookie first rounder who looked good in TC and preseason as a contingency plan. Aye?

Also, why is it highly unlikely? Prior to last season either had missed very few games. Oh, it's because they're old? When then by that logic, Winfeild and Favre won't make it though the season either.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Ryan will never be as good as Rodgers because he isn't as talented, or as smart.

Better?
I used talented. He ignored it.

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 01:27 PM
Rodgers's ability to run is one of the most underrated facets of his game.

There is not a single aspect of Rodgers' game I'd use "underrated" to describe anymore.

prock
09-09-2010, 01:33 PM
And you ignored every point I was making in favor of putting words in my mouth.

Smooth Criminal
09-09-2010, 01:35 PM
I'll take Rodgers easily.

tjsunstein
09-09-2010, 01:35 PM
And you ignored every point I was making in favor of putting words in my mouth.
You've mistaken putting words in your mouth to trying to understand your point, and you didn't have one. You overreacted to my statement of Rodgers being more productive than Ryan therefore leading to being better, and ran with it.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2010, 02:27 PM
Back to my point, and I don't mean to knock either Rodgers or Rivers, but I need them to start to really stand out from their peers in some capacity before they get elevated into the elite realm. Aaron Rodgers TD/int ratio is the one thing that really sticks out to me, but when I think of the argument for best QB, all of these guys definitely have talent, but results speak for themselves.

Brady: 4 superbowls, a 16-0 team and another superbowl appearance, led the highest scoring team of all time, broke a ton of records, including the most TDs in one season.

Peyton: His stats speak for himself, you can't **** with Peyton statistically, and his team wins 12 a year, every year, with multiple deep playoff runs.

Brees: The new guy relatively, the other two have been the ONLY ones in this discussion for the longest, but Brees legitimately needs mentioning. In 4 years he's led the highest rated offense 3 times, ranking 4th in the other, he's thrown for 5000 yards, and he now owns the completion % record, and that's not even getting into the fact that he won a superbowl now, and had another deep playoff run... on the Saints....

What has Rodgers or Rivers done at this point to get credit or get the benefit of the doubt? I wanna see something significant that breaks a Manning or Brees record, or a dominant post season run into the superbowl, etc.

Until then, they are elite QBs that aren't putting up legendary numbers.

Sportsfan486
09-09-2010, 02:39 PM
This thread is ridiculous. Go get split screen and watch River's on half and Rodger's on half. It's not even close. You could argue Rivers has a better deep ball than Rodgers but he gets beat hands down on every other count. Rodgers has a crisper and faster release, more arm strength on short to medium throws, better pocket presence and mobility, better ability to read defenses, etc etc.

And this is only Rodgers third season starting. And last season, for half of it, he was on pace to get sacked a near record amount of times. And while some of it was his fault, the vast majority was just awful protection. AND if you look how quickly Rodgers has improved on the fault that caused some sacks (taking too long to get rid of the ball) it's pretty incredible. For the last half of the season and especially this preseason he's been incredibly fast getting rid of the ball.

And what's your argument? Rivers had, arguably, a better offense the last few years with a #1 WR that plays to his strengths, an amazing TE and a very good OLine (comparatively, at least.)

Shiver
09-09-2010, 03:06 PM
LOL WUT?

Aaron Rodgers has better pocket presence? That ******* stupidly inaccurate.

Rodgers may have been better last year, slightly, but he wasn't better two years ago when Rivers was by far the best QB in the regular season in '08. To say it's "ridiculous" is clueless. I can't help you.

Vikes99ej
09-09-2010, 03:20 PM
LOL WUT?

Aaron Rodgers has better pocket presence? That ******* stupidly inaccurate.

Rodgers may have been better last year, slightly, but he wasn't better two years ago when Rivers was by far the best QB in the regular season in '08. To say it's "ridiculous" is clueless. I can't help you.

You can't insult Aaron Rodgers. Not allowed in this thread.

bam bam
09-09-2010, 03:38 PM
Seriously, Matt Ryan doesn't belong in the same sentence as Aaron Rodgers, unless the sentence is "Matt Ryan doesn't belong in the same sentence as Aaron Rodgers."

Matt Ryan doesn't belong in the same sentence as. Aaron Rodgers.

BigDawg819
09-09-2010, 03:53 PM
Joe Flacco's 3-2 record in the playoffs > Aaron Rodgers' 0-1 record in the postseason.

CC.SD
09-09-2010, 03:55 PM
LOL @ this thread

There's no argument I can make that won't sound stupidly homerish but there's enough GB folks in here for that not to matter.

Basically I question any and all statistics based arguments, and I feel like anyone who has seen a decent sample size of Charger football would too: for my money one of the most inexplicable coverups in the NFL is how truly horrific the Charger defense has been since really 2007. Time of possession has been awful, teams constantly grind it out against the bolts and the 3rd down conversion allowed rate is pathetic too. There's a lot of reasons why, but the bottom line is Rivers has been getting shafted as a result. GB's defense is dominant.

The #s he has put up are still practically MVP caliber but they don't reflect his efficiency and general ridiculousness.

Rivers is something like 17-0 in December for his career, subsequently never missing out on collecting a division title. This is only the tip of the 'clutch' iceberg too, he has been dominant in 4th quarters, although this kind of tracks back to the crappy defense.

If you want to include the playoffs in any kind of comparison it's not even debatable really, Rodgers has only played 2 seasons. Rivers has put on some air raids, particularly against the Titans and Colts, collecting wins.

I like Rodgers a lot but the hype is getting served up a little too much, Rivers has a whole lot going for him.

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 04:04 PM
The #s he has put up are still practically MVP caliber but they don't reflect his efficiency and general ridiculousness.


Nope...when it gets down to it I've seen Rivers go cold blooded killer on D's...if there's anything to admire more in great QBs it's their efficiency...Most of the time Rivers is quick and clean...And to me he's proven he's got balls of steel for those moments that can't be done quickly and cleanly.

Rodgers is iight, but when a guy is getting this much hype and pub it can automatically be assumed he's being heavily overrated. The Packers in general are the most overrated team in the NFL...that D isn't as good as they performed last year.

vidae
09-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Listen, everyone knows that best NFL QB really means best FF QB, and I have Rodgers.. so it is definitely him!

/thread

Splat
09-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Nope...when it gets down to it I've seen Rivers go cold blooded killer on D's...if there's anything to admire more in great QBs it's their efficiency...Most of the time Rivers is quick and clean...And to me he's proven he's got balls of steels for those moments that can't be done quickly and cleanly.

Rodgers is iight, but when a guy is getting this much hype and pub it can automatically be assumed he's being heavily overrated. The Packers in general are the most overrated team in the NFL...that D isn't as good as they performed last year.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c308/qnzitaliangrl/8866_ny-jets.jpg

BloodBrother
09-09-2010, 04:40 PM
You are all fools. The correct answer to this is Al Bundy

Sportsfan486
09-09-2010, 04:44 PM
LOL WUT?

Aaron Rodgers has better pocket presence? That ******* stupidly inaccurate.

Rodgers may have been better last year, slightly, but he wasn't better two years ago when Rivers was by far the best QB in the regular season in '08. To say it's "ridiculous" is clueless. I can't help you.

Welcome to 2010. It's a year with LT on the Jets, a mediocre to bad OLine for the Chargers, and VJax likely never to play for the Chargers again and Rodgers is in his third year starting and not his first.

Worst argument ever. You usually use your brain a bit more in responses, Shiver.

(And as a note, Brees > Manning > Brady > Rodgers as tier one, Rivers > Schaub > Romo = Ben as tier 2, imo.)

umphrey
09-09-2010, 04:58 PM
I've been saying for about a year there is no question in my mind that starting 2012, 2013 or so the ongoing debate every year is going to be who's the best QB in the league, Rodgers or Rivers? They are both amazing young quarterbacks who are clearly in their own league for QBs under 30.

From a football standpoint, I'd love to have either one but I'd take Aaron Rodgers in the Packers offense and Philip Rivers in the Chargers offense. Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Aaron Rodgers.

Rodgers is a fking pimp though and I like him so much more as a person and teammate. I do like Philip Rivers' competitiveness, which a lot of people hate him for, but I'll take a QB with passion over a complacent, quiet one. Rodgers is one of the most competitive, clutch QBs in the league, he rallies his teammates though instead of yelling at opponents and referees. The Arizona game last year his defense gave him nothing and he forced his team down the field for long TD drives over and over and over again, making a lot of plays to convert on third down. He was and probably will be the best 3rd down QB in the league, which is pretty damn important.

Shiver
09-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Welcome to 2010. It's a year with LT on the Jets, a mediocre to bad OLine for the Chargers, and VJax likely never to play for the Chargers again and Rodgers is in his third year starting and not his first.

Worst argument ever. You usually use your brain a bit more in responses, Shiver.

(And as a note, Brees > Manning > Brady > Rodgers as tier one, Rivers > Schaub > Romo = Ben as tier 2, imo.)

I've been saying for about a year there is no question in my mind that starting 2012, 2013 or so the ongoing debate every year is going to be who's the best QB in the league, Rodgers or Rivers? They are both amazing young quarterbacks who are clearly in their own league for QBs under 30.

From a football standpoint, I'd love to have either one but I'd take Aaron Rodgers in the Packers offense and Philip Rivers in the Chargers offense. Starting a team from scratch, I'd take Aaron Rodgers.

Rodgers is a fking pimp though and I like him so much more as a person and teammate. I do like Philip Rivers' competitiveness, which a lot of people hate him for, but I'll take a QB with passion over a complacent, quiet one. Rodgers is one of the most competitive, clutch QBs in the league, he rallies his teammates though instead of yelling at opponents and referees. The Arizona game last year his defense gave him nothing and he forced his team down the field for long TD drives over and over and over again, making a lot of plays to convert on third down. He was and probably will be the best 3rd down QB in the league, which is pretty damn important.

Thank you umphrey for making a sound, reasoned post. It's clear you use your brain rather than making rash, brainless assertions.

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 05:13 PM
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c308/qnzitaliangrl/8866_ny-jets.jpg

Good point sir.

Let me correct myself...:

The Packers are the most overrated team in the NFC. By a huge margin.

This time next year the NFC North QB that the world will be d-riding is Jay Cutler. That's right...I said it. Jay Cutler is coming back.

BigDawg819
09-09-2010, 05:38 PM
Good point sir.

Let me correct myself...:

The Packers are the most overrated team in the NFC. By a huge margin.

This time next year the NFC North QB that the world will be d-riding is Jay Cutler. That's right...I said it. Jay Cutler is coming back.


No allow me, the correct answer is Matthew Stafford for the next NFC North QB and like Rodgers it will be justified.

umphrey
09-09-2010, 05:47 PM
I like Stafford quite a bit. Cutler, not so much. He needs blocking and big targets that can get separation to throw to. Most quarterbacks would do well with that. Didn't Derek Anderson make the pro bowl because of that? I like Cutler better than DA and Kyle Orton but his play in Denver and his draft status make it easy for his fans to overlook the terrible decisions and mediocre accuracy he showed in Chicago. This is a make or break season for him. I don't think there is enough talent in Chicago for Cutler and Martz to make any big steps forward.

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 05:55 PM
No allow me, the correct answer is Matthew Stafford for the next NFC North QB and like Rodgers it will be justified.

Gosh dangit I'm wrong again...You are correct sir.

I think Cutler is this generation's Elway in that he won't win a Super Bowl until late in his career when he's calmed down a bit. They've got the whole smart school/losing school thing going on with their college teams...both are really athletic QBs...both have absolute cannons...both make/made terrible decisions with the ball as young QBs...both show the toughness and mental cajones to play well in the 4th...

But yea...that means he won't be anything special to see until he's about 32.

Now before anyone says it...Yes, I realize that comparing Cutler to Elway is laughable now because their storylines aren't exactly exact...for instance, I know Cutler hasn't been to and lost a SB yet...that said I think there are many similarities that point to Cutler enjoying his 30's when they come.

I hope he does it next year because I'm still a fan.

bernbabybern820
09-09-2010, 06:24 PM
I'm not sure who the better QB is between both of them but i just wanted to add that a lot of the sacks that Aaron Rodgers took was from him holding on to the ball for way too long trying to make a play.

J-Mike88
09-09-2010, 07:05 PM
I just want that out there before the season starts.

Rivers is the best under 30 QB in the league that I can think of right now at 5:15 AM.
They're close enough that a case can be made for either, as is the case with Manning and Brady to an extent (wow Rodney Harrison just put Brees at #2, behind Manning, and ahead of his boy Brady).

I'd personally rather, going forward, Rodgers' Packers win 3 rings and Rivers' Bolts win 1 ring, and you can call Rivers better. I'd be fine with that :o)

I actually love Rivers too. Good guy, always has been a leader and winner.

TitleTown088
09-09-2010, 07:09 PM
that D isn't as good as they performed last year.

That seems like sound logic.

Joe Montana isn't as good as those super bowls he won.

J-Mike88
09-09-2010, 07:11 PM
The Packers in general are the most overrated team in the NFL...that D isn't as good as they performed last year.As good as we performed last year?
You mean last year when we allowed Roethlisberger to to set an all-time Steelers franchise record with over 500 yards passing?
Or you mean last year when their defense allowed Favre 700 yards and 7 TDs to 0 interceptions?
Or you mean last year when Aaron Rodgers playoff record passing day was overshadowed by that Packer defense performing to the tune of letting Arizona beat us and our 45 points?

Our defense performed like crap last year, except against crap teams, and the overrated Ravens and Cowboys, two teams we shut down.

SenorGato
09-09-2010, 07:25 PM
That seems like sound logic.

Joe Montana isn't as good as those super bowls he won.

If only football worked that way...I'm not projecting Joe Montana's year to year performance with his 3 Super Bowl rings...it was a cute try though.

In the places where your D isn't old, it's mediocre. Tf is a Brad Jones?

Edit: Guy above this post...I should have read your post...so the D just sucks...good to know.

TitleTown088
09-09-2010, 07:26 PM
If only football worked that way...

In the places where your D isn't old, it's mediocre.

Oh I get it, the place where it's old. like at CB? Where the DPOY played?

1st overall run D, and a top 5 pass D. Mediocre.

BigDawg819
09-09-2010, 07:26 PM
As good as we performed last year?
You mean last year when we allowed Roethlisberger to to set an all-time Steelers franchise record with over 500 yards passing?
Or you mean last year when their defense allowed Favre 700 yards and 7 TDs to 0 interceptions?
Or you mean last year when Aaron Rodgers playoff record passing day was overshadowed by that Packer defense performing to the tune of letting Arizona beat us and our 45 points?

Our defense performed like crap last year, except against crap teams, and the overrated Ravens and Cowboys, two teams we shut down.

The Ravens' shut themselves down in that game because of careless penalties.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-09-2010, 10:57 PM
Rodgers is an elite QB, but not a top tier (aka Manning, Brees, maybe Brady) one who is oversold because of fantasy football

Ryan will never be elite. He's good but is pretty close to his ceiling barring some crazy transformation such as Brady's body coming out of college vs Brady now.

Rivers is elite and is basically all the Chargers have at this point but has a couple flaws that prevent him from entering the top tier.

bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch

Just remember, Jake Delhomme was a great playoff QB until he remembered he was Jake Delhomme and threw 5 picks in one game

/thread

Xenos
09-09-2010, 11:24 PM
Rodgers's ability to run is one of the most underrated facets of his game.

I'll counter with Rivers' pocket presence and ability to read defenses. It's one of the reasons why he takes so few sacks despite having an ever changing line last year. I think Rodgers relies too much on his athleticism like Big Ben to try to make plays that he holds onto the ball way too long and takes unnecessary sacks.

Really, in the end both are great players and people. Rivers is probably the more consistent of the two. And I mean in the sense that he's usually level in his stats. He has only thrown four TDs once in his career, but he has never thrown more than two interceptions in a game. He also only has thrown two redzone interceptions in his entire career.

Xenos
09-09-2010, 11:43 PM
Stick to that opinion & let yourself be shown up. Anyone that has not forseen a breakout from Aaron Rodgers didn't watch football a year ago. The guy made major strides & is just about as good as it gets in every major aspect of playing the Quarterback position. I didn't say he was the best LAST YEAR; in fact, few would argue that a year ago Drew Brees or Peyton Manning was the best.

People are projecting him to be the best this year.
Last season Aaron Rodgers had good receivers (not great, good) but a treacherous Offensive Line, especially early in the season. He rarely had ample time to throw & teams came at him. Still, he managed to cement his name among the Top 5 QBs in the game in only his second season as a starter.

He routinely torched the best defenses in football (see Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Minnesota)

Baltimore - 26-40 263 yds 3 Td 2 Int
Cincinnati - 21-39 261 yds 1 Td
Pittsburgh - 26-48 383 yds 3 Td + 1 Rushing Td
Minnesota - 26-37 384 yds 2 Td 1 Int
Minnesota - 26-41 287 yds 3 Td


Rivers' stats against the same teams aren't so bad as well.

Baltimore - 25-45 436 yds 2 Td 2 Int
Cincinnati - 24-38 308 yds 3 Td 2 Int
Pittsburgh - 21-36 254 yds 3 Td

Xenos
09-10-2010, 12:00 AM
This thread is ridiculous. Go get split screen and watch River's on half and Rodger's on half. It's not even close. You could argue Rivers has a better deep ball than Rodgers but he gets beat hands down on every other count. Rodgers has a crisper and faster release, more arm strength on short to medium throws, better pocket presence and mobility, better ability to read defenses, etc etc.

And this is only Rodgers third season starting. And last season, for half of it, he was on pace to get sacked a near record amount of times. And while some of it was his fault, the vast majority was just awful protection. AND if you look how quickly Rodgers has improved on the fault that caused some sacks (taking too long to get rid of the ball) it's pretty incredible. For the last half of the season and especially this preseason he's been incredibly fast getting rid of the ball.

And what's your argument? Rivers had, arguably, a better offense the last few years with a #1 WR that plays to his strengths, an amazing TE and a very good OLine (comparatively, at least.)
The first bolded part is debatable since it's hard to gauge quick releases. Needless to say for all the grief Rivers gets for his throwing motion, it's one of the fastest in the NFL because there's almost no wasted motion.

As for the other bolded parts, those are flat out wrong. Rivers has much better pocket presence and ability to read defenses. The only part of his oline that stay constant last year was his left tackle and left guard (who played below his pro bowl level). His line was in a constant flux the entire season with someone always getting injured. And yet he still had one of the lowest sack numbers because of his ability to make quick decisions, read defenses, and move in the pocket. He's like Brees and Peyton in that regards. Watch as he makes Dombroski (the UDFA left tackle filling in for McNeill) look very good. Similar to how Brees made Bushrod and Peyton with Charlie Johnson.

TitleTown088
09-10-2010, 12:00 AM
You can't insult Aaron Rodgers. Not allowed in this thread.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/PlantPage55/1283499231379.jpg

SenorGato
09-10-2010, 12:13 AM
Oh I get it, the place where it's old. like at CB? Where the DPOY played?

1st overall run D, and a top 5 pass D. Mediocre.

*Internet sigh*...

1. Your DPOY shouldn't have won it. Just sayin.

2. He's 35 going on 36 anyway. Not many top D's built around 36 year old DBs, 1 young OLB, and a bunch of mediocre front 7 guys.

3. One year is not some trend. They also changed schemes last year so 1. they got the little boost from that that teams seem to get and 2. not many NFC North teams see a 3-4 all that often. When I find out wtf a Brad Jones is then maybe I'll think that I underrate that D, but for the most part I look at the guys on the roster and few intrigue me.

4. Even some of your fans admit the D wasn't even that good last year. Sure the stats look pretty, but numbers only tell so much for so long...especially in this sport.

If it helps, I really like BJ Raji.

bantx
09-10-2010, 12:40 AM
bitches must not know about p-rivs

jsagan77
09-10-2010, 12:55 AM
bitches must not know about Tom Brady

FYP... Still the best QB in the NFL and everyone forgets about him.

1. Brady
2. Manning
3. Brees
4a. Rodgers
4a. Rivers

in 3-5 years

1. Rodgers
2. Rivers
3. Ryan
4. Stafford
5. Bradford

yourfavestoner
09-10-2010, 02:29 AM
Rodgers is an elite QB, but not a top tier (aka Manning, Brees, maybe Brady) one who is oversold because of fantasy football

Ryan will never be elite. He's good but is pretty close to his ceiling barring some crazy transformation such as Brady's body coming out of college vs Brady now.

Rivers is elite and is basically all the Chargers have at this point but has a couple flaws that prevent him from entering the top tier.

bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch

Just remember, Jake Delhomme was a great playoff QB until he remembered he was Jake Delhomme and threw 5 picks in one game

/thread

Are you really trying to insinuate that playoff performance is irrelevant?

BloodBrother
09-10-2010, 03:04 AM
*Internet sigh*...

1. Your DPOY shouldn't have won it. Just sayin.

2. He's 35 going on 36 anyway. Not many top D's built around 36 year old DBs, 1 young OLB, and a bunch of mediocre front 7 guys.

3. One year is not some trend. They also changed schemes last year so 1. they got the little boost from that that teams seem to get and 2. not many NFC North teams see a 3-4 all that often. When I find out wtf a Brad Jones is then maybe I'll think that I underrate that D, but for the most part I look at the guys on the roster and few intrigue me.

4. Even some of your fans admit the D wasn't even that good last year. Sure the stats look pretty, but numbers only tell so much for so long...especially in this sport.

If it helps, I really like BJ Raji.


Uh, the Packers front 7 is excellent, and its why they were tops in run D. Pickett did an excellent job at NT last year, but we'll see how he does with the move to DE. Cullen Jenkins never seems to get his due, he is a beast and not only is great vs the run but is good at getting to the QB. Barnett/Matthews are very good LBers. Hawk is assignment sure, but nothing spectacular, and as you said, the jury is out on Brad Jones. I like the front 7 a lot, its the secondary that worries me, though

molenguinurtle
09-10-2010, 03:25 AM
bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch



One thing that has always bothered me about that play is people's complete dismissal of Eli's part in it. No one ever talks about this guy escaping 3 people and buying time in order to make that throw, which was actually pretty damn accurate.

Werowance
09-10-2010, 03:31 AM
Uh, the Packers front 7 is excellent, and its why they were tops in run D. Pickett did an excellent job at NT last year, but we'll see how he does with the move to DE. Cullen Jenkins never seems to get his due, he is a beast and not only is great vs the run but is good at getting to the QB. Barnett/Matthews are very good LBers. Hawk is assignment sure, but nothing spectacular, and as you said, the jury is out on Brad Jones. I like the front 7 a lot, its the secondary that worries me, though

Here is the thing though, right now the Packers are the biggest one year wonder defense in the NFL, they jumped from the 26th best run defense in the NFL in 2008 to the best in the NFL in 2009, can they do it again? Plus, Dom Capers doesn't exactly have a history of putting together great defenses. Who knows if that defense holds up the same way this season, especially when you figure the defensive line has two new starters, BJ Raji is the NT and like you said Pickett is sliding out to LDE. Plus the secondary is already down two starters and the defense is all banged up with injuries, Cullen Jenkins, Clay Matthews and Brad Jones are already nicked up while Desmond Bishop, Mike Neal, Brady Poppinga and Brandon Underwood all missed practice the past two days.

Oh and maybe since the Packers have Al Harris on PUP and Underwood missing practice all week the Eagles might get to see Jarrett Bush and all his glory!

BloodBrother
09-10-2010, 04:21 AM
Here is the thing though, right now the Packers are the biggest one year wonder defense in the NFL, they jumped from the 26th best run defense in the NFL in 2008 to the best in the NFL in 2009, can they do it again? Plus, Dom Capers doesn't exactly have a history of putting together great defenses. Who knows if that defense holds up the same way this season, especially when you figure the defensive line has two new starters, BJ Raji is the NT and like you said Pickett is sliding out to LDE. Plus the secondary is already down two starters and the defense is all banged up with injuries, Cullen Jenkins, Clay Matthews and Brad Jones are already nicked up while Desmond Bishop, Mike Neal, Brady Poppinga and Brandon Underwood all missed practice the past two days.

Oh and maybe since the Packers have Al Harris on PUP and Underwood missing practice all week the Eagles might get to see Jarrett Bush and all his glory!

??? about the bolded part. It's been a trend that whenever Capers took over a D, they vastly improved immediately the year after. Schemes play a big role in this. Packers D has solid talent, they just had crappy coaching at the coordinator spot there with Vanilla Sanders. Capers can coach circles around Sanders, so the improvement wasn't a total surprise. I will say I didn't think they'd jump up that significantly, and obviously they still have a bit of work to do as they couldn't hack it vs elite offenses. At least, they couldn't get a big stop vs them when they needed it. Elite offenses are called that for a reason, they rarely get shut down, but rather a good D can slow them down, and make a big stop when needed. They couldn't do that, and will have to prove they can this year

Also, the Dline has 1 new full time starter, that's Raji. Pickett is just making a switch...but will rotate back at NT to spell Raji, as well.

Also, you are pointing out injuries but nothing is significant. The only major injury is Harris, obviously. All the other guys are just standard nicks that every team has where a few players will be limited during the week in practice, then suit up and play just fine on Sunday. Matthews has been going full participation all week and the coaches said he is 100%, same with Brad Jones and Jenkins. Underwood has actually practiced this week, but has been limited. He is questionable for sunday. I could go down through every team and list 5-6 guys who missed a practice or are limited this week with some nicks and bruises. It's the NFL

As far as seeing Jarret Bush on the field, I doubt that. He's the 5th DB on the depth chart. Well, you will see him, on ST

Rosebud
09-10-2010, 08:19 AM
bbd is only bringing up the playoffs because his QB is Eli, who is Ryan-level aside from one 4 game stretch that would be wholly forgotten if not for a special teams player making a HOF all-time catch

insert "u mad" pic here. Once Ryan throws for 4000+ yards, 28 TDs with no defense, running game or proven weapons. Now give him fractures to both feet preventing him from planting and stepping into his throws for weeks. Get real, Eli's a top 10 Qb right now who's always been one of the best late game/half QBs in the league with ridiculous toughness and durability.

Rosebud
09-10-2010, 08:23 AM
One thing that has always bothered me about that play is people's complete dismissal of Eli's part in it. No one ever talks about this guy escaping 3 people and buying time in order to make that throw, which was actually pretty damn accurate.

He's peyton's little brother, makes that stupid face and will never put up league leading numbers because of the team he plays for. Eli's incredible play will always be under-rated by most people.

BigDawg819
09-10-2010, 09:23 AM
*Internet sigh*...

1. Your DPOY shouldn't have won it. Just sayin.

2. He's 35 going on 36 anyway. Not many top D's built around 36 year old DBs, 1 young OLB, and a bunch of mediocre front 7 guys.

3. One year is not some trend. They also changed schemes last year so 1. they got the little boost from that that teams seem to get and 2. not many NFC North teams see a 3-4 all that often. When I find out wtf a Brad Jones is then maybe I'll think that I underrate that D, but for the most part I look at the guys on the roster and few intrigue me.

4. Even some of your fans admit the D wasn't even that good last year. Sure the stats look pretty, but numbers only tell so much for so long...especially in this sport.

If it helps, I really like BJ Raji.

How is this even remotely considered a rebuttal????????

TitleTown088
09-10-2010, 09:55 AM
How is this even remotely considered a rebuttal????????

He thinks his delusional opinions can be taken as fact.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-10-2010, 02:50 PM
Are you really trying to insinuate that playoff performance is irrelevant?

Irrelevant? no. WAY overstated and often grasping for straws by the people who constantly bring it up? Yes

One thing that has always bothered me about that play is people's complete dismissal of Eli's part in it. No one ever talks about this guy escaping 3 people and buying time in order to make that throw, which was actually pretty damn accurate.

It was a great play on his part, no denial there. The problem is that he played like an elite QB for only those playoffs, culminating in that play. His over performance in those games is actually similar to the way the Colts D carried the Colts the year Peyton got his ring, but you don't see people still claiming the Colts D is great.

insert "u mad" pic here. Once Ryan throws for 4000+ yards, 28 TDs with no defense, running game or proven weapons. Now give him fractures to both feet preventing him from planting and stepping into his throws for weeks. Get real, Eli's a top 10 Qb right now who's always been one of the best late game/half QBs in the league with ridiculous toughness and durability.

Ryan only has 2 years in the league, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a year or two like that at some point (though I'll certainly be rooting against it, as a Panthers fan). He also plays in a system that isn't conducive to putting up pretty numbers, much like Eli's offense early in his career and very unlike, say, Rodgers' offense. Not sure what having no defense has to do with it either, if anything that would make his numbers look better. As for top 10, I'll grant him that, but he's at the bottom. Ryan is just outside it, but again, younger. I actually do believe that Eli's upside is higher, and he seems to be taking steps to fill it, but career progression is not always a straight line. If I were listing QBs I'd probably make tiers, with Eli as the first QB in tier 3 (t1 would be Manning/Brees/Brady). Ryan would be in it, as would Flacco and maybe Carson Palmer. Speaking of career progression...

Shiver
09-10-2010, 02:52 PM
At this point in their careers Matt Ryan is eerily similar to Eli Manning. Just 'sayin.

bigbluedefense
09-10-2010, 02:54 PM
I think Rivers december record is taken out of context.

You play the AFC West first and foremost, so that alone inflates the stats. Plus you're playing in nice weather, so again, it's easier.


Not to mention, his playoff success came against the Colts.

Colts in a dome, or at home in SD where the weather is great. So yeah, it's gonna be easier to be a december winner when much of what makes december difficult is negligible for you.

bigbluedefense
09-10-2010, 02:55 PM
At this point in their careers Matt Ryan is eerily similar to Eli Manning. Just 'sayin.

He is. Almost to a T. Eli throws a better deep ball and has a slightly bigger arm, that's pretty much the only difference I see in them.

Shiver
09-10-2010, 03:01 PM
Hopefully Ryan keeps growing like Manning did.

molenguinurtle
09-10-2010, 03:02 PM
Irrelevant? no. WAY overstated and often grasping for straws by the people who constantly bring it up? Yes



It was a great play on his part, no denial there. The problem is that he played like an elite QB for only those playoffs, culminating in that play. His over performance in those games is actually similar to the way the Colts D carried the Colts the year Peyton got his ring, but you don't see people still claiming the Colts D is great.



Ryan only has 2 years in the league, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a year or two like that at some point (though I'll certainly be rooting against it, as a Panthers fan). He also plays in a system that isn't conducive to putting up pretty numbers, much like Eli's offense early in his career and very unlike, say, Rodgers' offense. Not sure what having no defense has to do with it either, if anything that would make his numbers look better. As for top 10, I'll grant him that, but he's at the bottom. Ryan is just outside it, but again, younger. I actually do believe that Eli's upside is higher, and he seems to be taking steps to fill it, but career progression is not always a straight line. If I were listing QBs I'd probably make tiers, with Eli as the first QB in tier 3 (t1 would be Manning/Brees/Brady). Ryan would be in it, as would Flacco and maybe Carson Palmer. Speaking of career progression...

IMk5sMHj58I

I really hope you're not serious about Palmer, Flacco, and Ryan being in the same tier of QB as Eli Manning.

bigbluedefense
09-10-2010, 03:04 PM
He will. Bc everything I saw in Eli that made me believe he was a franchise qb, I see in Matt Ryan.

The work ethic, the intelligence, the ability to adjust protections and routes, the ability to motion players into the perfect spot to find the whole in coverage, the mental toughness, the leadership, the desire, everything.

There's so much more to being a qb than just raw statistics. Matt Ryan to Atlanta fans is what Eli Manning is to Giants fans. Fans outside the fanbase simply don't understand how much the player does for the team.

I admit, I wasn't a Ryan fan coming out, but when I saw him in the NFL, I realized I made a mistake. He's gonna be the real deal. Maybe not ever statistically, but I never cared about that.

umphrey
09-10-2010, 04:08 PM
Wow, there are some crazy statements being thrown around here.
Rodgers is overrated due to fantasy? Why, because he put together the best statistical year last year? He did it with a crap offensive line for 8+ weeks and no elite receivers like Andre Johnson or Randy Moss. His 3rd down conversion percentage was off the charts and he very rarely turned the ball over, two factors that don't count for fantasy and barely count for fantasy, respectably.

Aaron Rodgers will never be elite? That post sounds like its 2-5 years old. He already is. He had a better first 2 seasons than any QB in history, ever. He doesn't even have any faults, except maybe holding the ball too long, which he pretty much fixed towards the end of last year. If any decent scout wrote a scouting report on him he would get + grades in every single category.

Dom Capers hasn't put together a good defense? Are you fking kidding me? He was so good at it he got 2 head coaching jobs even though he made a pretty garbage head coach.

Those are just some posts that stuck out and hit a nerve with me at how completely inaccurate they were...

yourfavestoner
09-10-2010, 04:21 PM
He is. Almost to a T. Eli throws a better deep ball and has a slightly bigger arm, that's pretty much the only difference I see in them.

Ryan's done far better in the mid-range passing game than Eli did at a similar point in his career, though. Part of that comes with playing in the dome vs. playing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands.

bigbluedefense
09-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Ryan's done far better in the mid-range passing game than Eli did at a similar point in his career, though. Part of that comes with playing in the dome vs. playing in the swirling winds of the Meadowlands.

That and the offensive system. Eli would get ripped on by casual fans for "inaccurate" throws a lot in his early years, when in fact, it was more miscommunication between him and Shockey/Burress that lead to INTs.

It's no coincidence that his INT totals went down dramatically when those 2 left. We run a choice route offense, so if the WR and QB don't read the coverage the same way, it's gonna lead to what looks like an inaccurate throw or an INT.

What sticks out in many minds is the 4 INT game in 07 against the Vikings. Eli got KILLED for that game. But most of those picks were actually the fault of Burress and especially Shockey, running the wrong routes. But Eli never threw them under the bus, and took all the heat for it. He won over a lot of guys in the lockerroom with that.

Our offense is complex, it requires smart WRs. Its why a guy like Steve Smith can be so successful in our system despite a lack of athleticism. The Steve Smith's of the world were built for our offense.

I always wondered how good Eli could be in a simpler offense like a WCO where he didn't have to rely on WRs reading coverages. That's another reason why he won't put up great stats. Smart WRs are hard to find.

yourfavestoner
09-10-2010, 04:33 PM
That and the offensive system. Eli would get ripped on by casual fans for "inaccurate" throws a lot in his early years, when in fact, it was more miscommunication between him and Shockey/Burress that lead to INTs.

It's no coincidence that his INT totals went down dramatically when those 2 left. We run a choice route offense, so if the WR and QB don't read the coverage the same way, it's gonna lead to what looks like an inaccurate throw or an INT.

What sticks out in many minds is the 4 INT game in 07 against the Vikings. Eli got KILLED for that game. But most of those picks were actually the fault of Burress and especially Shockey, running the wrong routes. But Eli never threw them under the bus, and took all the heat for it. He won over a lot of guys in the lockerroom with that.

Our offense is complex, it requires smart WRs. Its why a guy like Steve Smith can be so successful in our system despite a lack of athleticism. The Steve Smith's of the world were built for our offense.

I always wondered how good Eli could be in a simpler offense like a WCO where he didn't have to rely on WRs reading coverages. That's another reason why he won't put up great stats. Smart WRs are hard to find.

Steve Smith reminds me so much of Keenan McCardell it's not even funny.

But you're right, Coughlin/Gilbride run one of the most complex offensive schemes in the NFL. People don't realize it because Coughlin likes to pound the rock, but his passing system is incredibly intricate.

bigbluedefense
09-10-2010, 04:39 PM
Steve Smith reminds me so much of Keenan McCardell it's not even funny.

But you're right, Coughlin/Gilbride run one of the most complex offensive schemes in the NFL. People don't realize it because Coughlin likes to pound the rock, but his passing system is incredibly intricate.

In theory, the system is designed to be unstoppable.

But its so complex, it's just unrealistic. I wish we ran a simpler offense and just let the natural athleticism of our guys do the talking. Eli's #s would skyrocket if we did that.

The amount of checks and adjustments he has to do at the line is probably only second to Peyton too. People overlook that aspect of his game. That's why it takes him all the way to the last second on the clock a lot of times to hike the ball. Dude is running a semi no huddle offense and making all the adjustments within 10 seconds.

Saints-Tigers
09-10-2010, 04:40 PM
In theory, the system is designed to be unstoppable.

But its so complex, it's just unrealistic. I wish we ran a simpler offense and just let the natural athleticism of our guys do the talking. Eli's #s would skyrocket if we did that.

The amount of checks and adjustments he has to do at the line is probably only second to Peyton too. People overlook that aspect of his game. That's why it takes him all the way to the last second on the clock a lot of times to hike the ball. Dude is running a semi no huddle offense and making all the adjustments within 10 seconds.

Brees(10 char)

bigbluedefense
09-10-2010, 04:42 PM
Brees(10 char)

Forgot about Brees. I guess we'll be safe and say he's top 4 when it comes to responsibilities at the line.

Believe it or not, Romo has a lot of line checks too, but he doesn't get any credit for it. Brady too. Brady is probably tied with Eli when it comes to this.

Guys who have minimal checks: Ben, Rivers, Rodgers (although he's improving).

Saints-Tigers
09-10-2010, 04:44 PM
Takes a great coach and a great QB to be honest. Coach has to be pretty humble to put that responsibility in a guys hand, and the guy has to be really intelligent to handle it.

That's one thing that impressed me about Chase Daniel in the preseason. The coaches just treated him like he was Drew Brees to see what he can do, and he handled his checks well, considering his youth.

hockey619
09-10-2010, 04:46 PM
BBD

I believe everything youre saying about the line checks, and I think Eli is vastly underrated by almost everyone.

But how do you know all this about all these teams systems? (as far as who has a lot of checks and who doesnt and how complex the Giants system is)

Not calling you out, just curious really.

Rosebud
09-10-2010, 04:49 PM
BBD

I believe everything youre saying about the line checks, and I think Eli is vastly underrated by almost everyone.

But how do you know all this about all these teams systems? (as far as who has a lot of checks and who doesnt and how complex the Giants system is)

Not calling you out, just curious really.

Banning has posted chunks of our older playbooks in the team forum that show the concepts behind the option routes our offense is based on, some plays are insane where the WR has to pick one of 4 or 5 routes based on coverage and blitzes.

21ST
09-10-2010, 04:53 PM
BBD

I believe everything youre saying about the line checks, and I think Eli is vastly underrated by almost everyone.

But how do you know all this about all these teams systems? (as far as who has a lot of checks and who doesnt and how complex the Giants system is)

Not calling you out, just curious really.

All you really have to do is pay attention to everything going on pre-snap

CC.SD
09-10-2010, 05:55 PM
It is my birthday.

Rivers>ALL

LonghornsLegend
09-10-2010, 06:29 PM
Brees(10 char)

Yes Brees is a top 2-3 QB, but how would you know if that equates to him having more in-line checks then Eli? Just curious. It's not like he was saying Eli was better, and we all know Brees makes adjustments, but I don't think you'd really know the answer to that 1 way or another other then just wanting Brees name to be mentioned.

umphrey
09-10-2010, 06:33 PM
Forgot about Brees. I guess we'll be safe and say he's top 4 when it comes to responsibilities at the line.

Believe it or not, Romo has a lot of line checks too, but he doesn't get any credit for it. Brady too. Brady is probably tied with Eli when it comes to this.

Guys who have minimal checks: Ben, Rivers, Rodgers (although he's improving).

You're right, Rodgers hasn't made a lot of line checks. He's been doing it often and well in preseason though so it's probably been a top focus for him in the offseason. I'd expect a pretty drastic improvement there.

Saints-Tigers
09-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Yes Brees is a top 2-3 QB, but how would you know if that equates to him having more in-line checks then Eli? Just curious. It's not like he was saying Eli was better, and we all know Brees makes adjustments, but I don't think you'd really know the answer to that 1 way or another other then just wanting Brees name to be mentioned.


Because Brees makes multiple adjustments on nearly every play, and has free reign to change any play or route whenever he feels necessary. It would be hard for anyone to make more checks than and adjustments than someone that does it virtually every snap.

hockey619
09-10-2010, 06:39 PM
All you really have to do is pay attention to everything going on pre-snap

Yeah i can see that, but no one who isnt on the team knows when those are dummy calls and when the QB is actually doing something.

21ST
09-10-2010, 07:40 PM
Yeah i can see that, but no one who isnt on the team knows when those are dummy calls and when the QB is actually doing something.

But there are some QB's that do it on pretty much every single play

King Carls 5 Year Plan
09-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Takes a great coach and a great QB to be honest. Coach has to be pretty humble to put that responsibility in a guys hand, and the guy has to be really intelligent to handle it.

That's one thing that impressed me about Chase Daniel in the preseason. The coaches just treated him like he was Drew Brees to see what he can do, and he handled his checks well, considering his youth.

I'm a huge MU homer, being from KC and all, and I couldn't have been more pleased when I saw Chase land in NO. That's a great system for him and he has two of the best coaches in Sean and Drew showing him how to do it all the right way. I hope nothing but the best for the kid. I have met him a few times at different functions and he seems like the nicest kid with a good head on his shoulders.

bigbluedefense
09-11-2010, 07:28 AM
BBD

I believe everything youre saying about the line checks, and I think Eli is vastly underrated by almost everyone.

But how do you know all this about all these teams systems? (as far as who has a lot of checks and who doesnt and how complex the Giants system is)

Not calling you out, just curious really.

Honestly, you just have to pay attention to what's going on pre-snap. I know how to read defenses and offenses. I call out 80% of the plays before they happen. If you ever watched a football game with me, I'd drive you nuts, because I'd tell you who the ball is going to before the snap about 70% of the time, and if I'm wrong I'll be able to break down to you why and how it was taken away by the defense. I can tell you who's coming, what the coverage was down field, how they disguised the play pre-snap, and who the qb should have went to based on the coverage, and what he could have done presnap to make the playcall more adjusted based on what the defense called.

I'm pretty good at reading defenses, and I love when I'm wrong bc I learn a new technique of how the defense disguised their coverage in a certain formation/front.

That's why I tend to look at qb's in a different light than most people. The game is much more complicated than raw statistics, thats why I view some qb's very differently than the majority opinion of them and have some qb's rated higher than others even though they don't have the "statistics" to back my views up.

I drive my brothers nuts when I break down plays during a game. Or when I call out a touchdown before it happens. Especially when I'm at the stadium and I'm breaking down what's going on. People sitting around me think I'm a freak or something.

Also a myth about coverage (especially zone coverage) is that you have 1 check. Usually in zone coverage, each defender has 2 to 3 checks he goes through, especially Cover 2. A cover 2 shell can be called on 3 different plays, and look different on film each time it was called, based on the checks of the DBs and how they reacted to the routes being run on offense. Cover 2 can look like Cover 4 one play, like Cover 2 another play, and a combination of Cover 2 and Cover 3 another play etc.

Qb's aren't the only ones making checks prensnap. The MIKE is adjusting the front 7, and usually a safety is adjusting the DBs simultaneously as the QB and Center are making their checks. The true beauty of this game is the chess match that goes on before the snap.

It starts with the coaches, and trickles down to a chess match between the qb and center vs the MIKE and Safety.

The true great qbs are the ones who win that chess match. That's what statistics will never show you.
You're right, Rodgers hasn't made a lot of line checks. He's been doing it often and well in preseason though so it's probably been a top focus for him in the offseason. I'd expect a pretty drastic improvement there.

He's getting better. I've always said, if a qb doesn't possess the ability to make the presnap adjustments, he needs a smart Center who can do the dirty work for him. That's why teams are putting a higher premium on Centers. The Center is your qb of the oline. And a lot of teams put the responsibility on him to identify the MIKE etc and make the adjustments instead of the qb.

The Center cannot adjust the routes though. He can only adjust the protections. Which is better than nothing, especially if you have a qb who does none of that.

TitleTown088
09-11-2010, 07:34 PM
What the heck are you guys talking about? Rodgers checks all day at the line. breaking the huddle andd getting up to the LOS with time to read the defense is what Mike McCarthey's offense is predicated on. Anyone who watches/knows the Packers knows this.

SenorGato
09-12-2010, 01:05 AM
All QBs make checks.

It's part of the job. The best QBs even call their own players. That's why the Pats don't really have an official coordinator now. Tom Moore's just been collecting a paycheck for years now. The Saints offense is Peyton and Brees'.

Gay Ork Wang
09-12-2010, 11:21 AM
Martz and Turner doesnt allow checks

21ST
09-12-2010, 12:02 PM
All QBs make checks.

It's part of the job. The best QBs even call their own players. That's why the Pats don't really have an official coordinator now. Tom Moore's just been collecting a paycheck for years now. The Saints offense is Peyton and Brees'.

No they dont, its all about the system they are in.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-12-2010, 04:39 PM
He will. Bc everything I saw in Eli that made me believe he was a franchise qb, I see in Matt Ryan.

The work ethic, the intelligence, the ability to adjust protections and routes, the ability to motion players into the perfect spot to find the whole in coverage, the mental toughness, the leadership, the desire, everything.

There's so much more to being a qb than just raw statistics. Matt Ryan to Atlanta fans is what Eli Manning is to Giants fans. Fans outside the fanbase simply don't understand how much the player does for the team.

I admit, I wasn't a Ryan fan coming out, but when I saw him in the NFL, I realized I made a mistake. He's gonna be the real deal. Maybe not ever statistically, but I never cared about that.

my tier 3 is basically guys that you can win a SB with and people won't say "you won a SB with trent dilfer." so, yes, "Franchise" guys but they are a clear step down from the absolute best guys in the league. Now that I think about it more, I would probably drop Schaub in there too. The injury proneness knocks him down a bit and he's another guy where the numbers look a bit better than he really is (not that I'm saying Rodgers/Schaub/etc suck, their numbers are REALLY good). Current McNabb probably fits in on the lower end as well.

I'm not trying to knock anyone's QB. Just giving my opinion as a mostly unbiased observer. I've watched a lot of bad QB play from my team over the years so I know what to look for and I also don't have a dog in the fight. Also, re: the checks and controlling the line, Delhomme did a lot of that Carolina so it doesn't automatically make you a great QB either. It just means you have a lot of responsibility in the offense. It is a factor, however, and having the ability to do it well is way more important than, say, being able to throw the ball 80 yards from your knees

SenorGato
09-12-2010, 10:33 PM
No they dont, its all about the system they are in.

Let me correct myself...

All good QBs make checks.

BigDawg819
09-12-2010, 11:05 PM
Let me correct myself...

All good QBs cash checks.

There, you're a genius!

umphrey
09-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Rodgers said today was the worst football game he's played in his life

tjsunstein
09-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Rodgers said today was the worst football game he's played in his life
He was definitely off but that goes to say what high expectations he has for himself.

Basileus777
09-12-2010, 11:12 PM
I like Rodgers, but I can't place him with the elite QBs with that pocket presence of his. He holds onto the ball far too long and often seems to be unaware of where the rush is coming from or where he should move in the pocket. His pass protection is poor, but that's no excuse. Put a Manning, Brees, or Brady behind that line and they wouldn't be taking those kinds of sacks.

SenorGato
09-13-2010, 07:54 AM
Uh, the Packers front 7 is excellent, and its why they were tops in run D. Pickett did an excellent job at NT last year, but we'll see how he does with the move to DE. Cullen Jenkins never seems to get his due, he is a beast and not only is great vs the run but is good at getting to the QB. Barnett/Matthews are very good LBers. Hawk is assignment sure, but nothing spectacular, and as you said, the jury is out on Brad Jones. I like the front 7 a lot, its the secondary that worries me, though

Probably not good in a division with Martz/Cutler, Favre, and Staffrod/CJ...The D is nice in places but even crappy D's are nice in places...I still don't see enough to make me think this is a D that can win a Super Bowl or even repeat last year's statistical performance.

Cullen Jenkins is a nice player too.

tjsunstein
09-13-2010, 10:54 AM
I like Rodgers, but I can't place him with the elite QBs with that pocket presence of his. He holds onto the ball far too long and often seems to be unaware of where the rush is coming from or where he should move in the pocket. His pass protection is poor, but that's no excuse. Put a Manning, Brees, or Brady behind that line and they wouldn't be taking those kinds of sacks.
I'd rather take a sack then turn the ball over 10/10. Actually, we just saw what Peyton did behind a line about as good as the Packers last year. Took two sacks and was hit 10 times against the Texans. Their D-Line isn't all too impressive outside of Mario Williams.

nepg
09-13-2010, 11:10 AM
So I met Aaron Rodgers in a dream last night (super vivid). We talked about facial hair almost exclusively. I told him I liked his fu and told him I was thinking about going with a Lemmy. He liked the idea and said he was considering going the same route, but that he really like mustaches. He and a couple others tried to get me to convert to mustache from beard, but I told them "I don't trust people with mustaches as a rule, and if I had a mustache how could I go about life not trusting myself?" He laughed, and then the dream ended.

bantx
09-13-2010, 12:06 PM
Philip Rivers doesn't take the sack or give the interception he just has amazing pocket presence.

umphrey
09-13-2010, 12:15 PM
I don't blame you for lowering your opinions of Rodgers because of yesterdays game but I predict by week 8 or so he'll get/get back his great pocket awareness, his accuracy will be top notch and he'll just see the field and read his routes better. That would be about back to where he was when he left off 2009.

He didn't look good but he led his offense to 27 points and was throwing a slick ball.

Rosebud
09-13-2010, 12:26 PM
I don't blame you for lowering your opinions of Rodgers because of yesterdays game but I predict by week 8 or so he'll get/get back his great pocket awareness, his accuracy will be top notch and he'll just see the field and read his routes better. That would be about back to where he was when he left off 2009.

He didn't look good but he led his offense to 27 points and was throwing a slick ball.

But you can see how that performance doesn't exactly match the MVP-caliber expectations a lot of people in this very thread had set for Rodgers. Not saying that one game makes him not a great QB, but it does reinforce the idea that he needs to prove he's elite by consistently playing elite football and that so far he hasn't shown enough for long enough.

BloodBrother
09-13-2010, 01:43 PM
Probably not good in a division with Martz/Cutler, Favre, and Staffrod/CJ...The D is nice in places but even crappy D's are nice in places...I still don't see enough to make me think this is a D that can win a Super Bowl or even repeat last year's statistical performance.

Cullen Jenkins is a nice player too.


An active Dline/front 7 who gets pressure can mask deficiencies in the secondary. Bears OL gave up 4 sacks to the Lions defense yesterday, and in general their OL is pretty awful. Same goes for Detroit. With that said, I want to see how they stack up vs talented teams with good OL's. They aren't a great D, but they are good, and are an opportunistic D who will create a lot of turnovers. Packers have an elite offense so that type of D is good enough to get them to where they want to go

CC.SD
09-13-2010, 02:17 PM
I snagged this out of the SDUT today

'Riversí 96.3 passer rating is highest in history after 64 starts. His 63.2 completion percentage through those 64 starts is third behind Kurt Warner and Joe Montana. He has thrown 105 touchdowns to 44 interceptions, a ratio that only Dan Marino (157-72) came close to matching in his first 64 starts.'

woot woot, very anxious to see how the O-line holds up against the Chiefs.

yourfavestoner
09-13-2010, 02:19 PM
I snagged this out of the SDUT today

'Riversí 96.3 passer rating is highest in history after 64 starts. His 63.2 completion percentage through those 64 starts is third behind Kurt Warner and Joe Montana. He has thrown 105 touchdowns to 44 interceptions, a ratio that only Dan Marino (157-72) came close to matching in his first 64 starts.'

woot woot, very anxious to see how the O-line holds up against the Chiefs.

Let's go P-Rizzy!

You going to the game next week CC? I think I'm gonna have to head down there for it, cheap seats are still only $40.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-13-2010, 03:08 PM
I don't blame you for lowering your opinions of Rodgers because of yesterdays game but I predict by week 8 or so he'll get/get back his great pocket awareness, his accuracy will be top notch and he'll just see the field and read his routes better. That would be about back to where he was when he left off 2009.

He didn't look good but he led his offense to 27 points and was throwing a slick ball.

1 game means nothing, absolutely nothing

Any opinions formed on Rodgers were from well before that game