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View Full Version : Who should be Number 2?


soybean
10-03-2010, 04:24 PM
Oregon or Ohio State and why?

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 04:28 PM
we just beat Oregon in the Rose Bowl. benefit of the doubt.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 04:31 PM
Hmmm... no love for Boise State, TCU, or Nebraska?

People can say Ohio State was lucky to beat the Illini if they want, but Oregon was lucky to escape that Arizona State game with a win as well.

The difference is people will look at Oregon's crazy amount of points scored and assume they were successful while Ohio State evidently struggled when Ohio State actually plays defense.

SickwithIt1010
10-03-2010, 04:33 PM
Oregon shouldnt even be number 3....


....the fact that they jumped Boise State is ******* stupid.

Sniper
10-03-2010, 04:37 PM
Oregon shouldnt even be number 3....


....the fact that they jumped Boise State is ******* stupid.

Well, Oregon beat someone with a pulse. Boise hasn't.

we just beat Oregon in the Rose Bowl. benefit of the doubt.

Relevance to this season not found.


The difference is people will look at Oregon's crazy amount of points scored and assume they were successful while Ohio State evidently struggled when Ohio State actually plays defense.


How hard can it be to play D against Illinois' two-play playbook?

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 04:37 PM
Oregon shouldnt even be number 3....


....the fact that they jumped Boise State is ******* stupid.


that's probably true in terms of fairness, but I can't begrudge voters for putting a team who actually plays a decent schedule ahead of a team who plays only 2 teams all year than are any decent at all.

hawkeye123
10-03-2010, 04:37 PM
I'd say Oregon at this point. Mainly because i believe Oregon plays tougher teams. I think just about all the teams on Ohio State's schedule are overrated (Miami, Wisconsin, Penn State). Pac 10 is a tougher conference this year then the Big Ten.

Oregon's offense is just ridiculous, so explosive, it's not a fluke that they're averaging 50+ points a game.

Both teams should be higher then Boise State that's for sure.

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 04:39 PM
Pac ten isn't tougher than the big ten. Big Ten has 6 or 7 teams who are top 25 caliber (OSU, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Michigan, Penn State, and Northwestern) plus Indiana who will make a bowl game. Pac Ten has 3 top 25 teams, maybe 4 tops (Oregon, Stanford, Arizona, and maybe Oregon State) and then a bunch of teams who will be lucky to make a bowl.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 04:40 PM
Oregon's offense is just ridiculous, so explosive, it's not a fluke that they're averaging 50+ points a game.
How many points did they average per game last year when they were shut down by Ohio State?

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 04:42 PM
Relevance to this season not found.



Oregon was hanging 50 on everyone last year and Ohio State shut them down. Benefit of the doubt if you're gonna compare them both. It's a hell of a lot better thing to compare them with than anything else if they both go undefeated in their conferences.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 04:44 PM
How hard can it be to play D against Illinois' two-play playbook?
No harder than it would be to triple Devier Posey every play and send the other 8 at Pryor, but Oregon couldn't get that job done.

ElectricEye
10-03-2010, 04:46 PM
Oregon, not much of a doubt here for me. They're just on a different level than everybody else in terms of offense right now.

Sniper
10-03-2010, 04:46 PM
Oregon was hanging 50 on everyone last year and Ohio State shut them down. Benefit of the doubt if you're gonna compare them both. It's a hell of a lot better thing to compare them with than anything else if they both go undefeated in their conferences.

Well, considering they're different teams, benefit of the doubt from last year means nothing.

No harder than it would be to triple Devier Posey every play and send the other 8 at Pryor, but Oregon couldn't get that job done.

Good point.

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 04:51 PM
we know Chip Kelly's oregon offense isn't unstoppable b/c of last year, even if they are better than before you can't say they're clearly better just b/c they score a **** ton of points again. They certainly didn't win by a **** ton of points last week against Arizona State. OSU has more talent and is more balanced in terms of offense and defensive performance.

It might not be fair to have something like the polls be left up to human judgement, but they do use the previous bowl game in the rankings, and I don't think OSU has done anything to be dropped just b/c they won a league road game against a poor team by 11. Oregon did the exact same thing a week before.

hawkeye123
10-03-2010, 04:54 PM
we know Chip Kelly's oregon offense isn't unstoppable b/c of last year, even if they are better than before you can't say they're clearly better just b/c they score a **** ton of points again. They certainly didn't score a **** ton of points last week against Arizona State. OSU has more talent and is more balanced in terms of offense and defensive performance.

It might not be fair to have something like the polls be left up to human judgement, but they do use the previous bowl game in the rankings, and I don't think OSU has done anything to be dropped just b/c they won a league road game against a poor team by 11. Oregon did the exact same thing a week before.

They scored 42 points against ASU at Arizona in the 100 degree heat, that's still impressive. Arizona State has a very solid defense.

Ohio State only scored 24 against Illinois.

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 04:57 PM
no one could pass in the wind and Pryor got hurt. We only score 24, but at the same time we only gave up 13, and the one touchdown was on the opening drive. We ran the ball almost every single play in the 2nd half, maybe threw 2 or 3 passes. Both were ugly wins on the road against bad teams.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 04:57 PM
They scored 42 points against ASU at Arizona in the 100 degree heat, that's still impressive. Arizona State has a very solid defense.

Ohio State only scored 24 against Illinois.
You're an Iowa fan and you're making this argument?

So offense is more impressive than defense. Got it.

Sniper
10-03-2010, 04:59 PM
You're an Iowa fan and you're making this argument?

So offense is more impressive than defense. Got it.

Let's not pretend like Illinois and Stanford have similar offenses.

hawkeye123
10-03-2010, 04:59 PM
You're an Iowa fan and you're making this argument?

So offense is more impressive than defense. Got it.

I'm actually not an Iowa Fan, I was watching a Iowa football game highlight last year when this site asked for a username.

But yeah i'm pretty biased to Pac-10 teams.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 05:01 PM
Let's not pretend like Illinois and Stanford have similar offenses.
as long as you don't pretend Oregon has a defense.

This year is vintage Pac-10 Football where no one can stop anyone and the last team who has the ball typically wins

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 05:04 PM
I don't care if it's a different season, that doesn't matter. Most of the players on both teams are the same and the Buckeyes beat the Ducks last year, shutting their offense down. If they both go undefeated with the schedules they have, OSU should get in the title game before Oregon. If Oregon won that game to end last season they it would be the other way around, it's only fair. It's not like Ohio State's remaining schedule isn't much stronger than Oregon's either, b/c it is. Michigan, Iowa, Penn State, and Wisconsin all potential/probable ranked teams while Oregon plays one more ranked team (arizona) with the exception of maybe Oregon state or USC getting ranked. Their OOC schedule features a win over Tennessee who won't go to a bowl while Ohio State beat the potential ACC Champ.

Sniper
10-03-2010, 05:07 PM
I don't care if it's a different season, that doesn't matter.

Michigan should be ranked No. 1 because they won the national title in 1997. Sure, it's a different season, but you don't care.

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 05:10 PM
Michigan should be ranked No. 1 because they won the national title in 1997. Sure, it's a different season, but you don't care.

you're not following logic sniper. it's a different season but it's mostly the same players on both sides and it is the same coaches and similar scheduling. If they both go undefeated then the only tiebreaker you can use is human judgement, and those voters saw an Ohio State team with most of the same players decisively shut down an Oregon team with most of the same players on a neutral field. It's not like it was the first game of last season, it was this in January of this same year.

soybean
10-03-2010, 05:12 PM
you're not following logic sniper. it's a different season but it's mostly the same players on both sides and it is the same coaches and similar scheduling. If they both go undefeated then the only tiebreaker you can use is human judgement, and those voters saw an Ohio State team with most of the same players decisively shut down an Oregon team with most of the same players on a neutral field. It's not like it was the first game of last season, it was this in January of this same year.

well in contrast, Stanford whooped on Oregon last season as well.

hawkeye123
10-03-2010, 05:14 PM
well in contrast, Stanford whooped on Oregon last season as well.

This is what i was going to say.

Stanford is much better this year then they were this year, especially on defense.

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 05:14 PM
but they actually got to play again this year. OSU/OU won't. The only thing we have to compare them with is that Rose Bowl. If two teams finish the year even you give the team that beat the other in a bowl game the year before the benefit of the doubt in the rankings. We won the right to have a better spot in the preseason polls in that game, and if we go unbeaten we should get in before Oregon since our schedule isn't crappy compared to theirs or anything. This won't matter that much anyways since OSU plays more ranked teams than Oregon this year.

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 05:17 PM
Playing in Oregon makes a huge difference.

Homefield is such a huge advantage in PAC-10 Conference play.

Whether or not it shouldn't, the Rose Bowl does and would factor in if it was a decision between Oregon and Ohio State. That's just how it goes.

keylime_5
10-03-2010, 05:18 PM
it might not be fair but there is a lot of unfairness in college football these days isn't there? there is no playoff system so this is how it goes.

gstock05
10-03-2010, 05:41 PM
This thread is stupid.


Time and time again in college football, we've seen that 1 game doesn't make a season. This goes for both Oregon's close game with ASU, and Ohio State's close game with Illinois.


Pryor got injured & tressel decided to run the ball up the middle with Saine 90% of the game. The game isn't going to be high-scoring by default. Every team will have some "closer" games within conference play, it's just how college football works. Until they lose however, it's not really a good reason to proclaim one team as being bad, and the other team as being a crap team.


I didn't watch ASU vs Oregon either, so I can't make any comments, however, they do look incredibly explosive. I was definitely impressed by their offense, but the best teams in the country have to be well rounded and well balanced. I can't remember the last time a team won a championship with ONLY offense.

SickwithIt1010
10-03-2010, 05:54 PM
Well, Oregon beat someone with a pulse. Boise hasn't.



They beat ******* New Mexico and Portland ******* state.....are you kidding me. BSU beat 2 teams that at the time were actually ranked. Cmon man.

soybean
10-03-2010, 05:59 PM
yeah but Stanford > Va Tech and Oregon State

Sniper
10-03-2010, 06:01 PM
They beat ******* New Mexico and Portland ******* state.....are you kidding me. BSU beat 2 teams that at the time were actually ranked. Cmon man.

Is it just me, or did Oregon just mop the floor with Stanford?

wonderbredd24
10-03-2010, 06:04 PM
Is it just me, or did Oregon just mop the floor with Stanford?

You killed Boise State going into the season because they were gonna play Virginia Tech and Oregon State and according to you, no one else, but Oregon is awesome when they've played one meaningful game and it was a home game?

You're better than that.

Sniper
10-03-2010, 06:05 PM
You killed Boise State going into the season because they were gonna play Virginia Tech and Oregon State and according to you, no one else, but Oregon is awesome when they've played one meaningful game and it was a home game?

You're better than that.

I didn't say Oregon was awesome. I just said they mopped the floor with a good team. I don't really give a **** who's number two right now. It's not important. Virginia Tech proved that they're a phony. Stanford looks pretty solid right now. I don't think anyone can deny that Stanford is a better team than VT right now.

Brent
10-03-2010, 06:05 PM
if he's bringing up Boise, then I am going to mention TCU.

RealityCheck
10-03-2010, 06:14 PM
Is the thread creator racist when it comes to blue-colored fields and jerseys?

soybean
10-03-2010, 06:14 PM
You killed Boise State going into the season because they were gonna play Virginia Tech and Oregon State and according to you, no one else, but Oregon is awesome when they've played one meaningful game and it was a home game?

You're better than that.

scoring 48 in Neyland Stadium is not exactly an easy feat regardless of how bad the Vols are.

katnip
10-03-2010, 07:36 PM
Vote - Oregon

They look unstoppable on offense so far. No teams been able to stop them for 60 minutes so far.

SickwithIt1010
10-03-2010, 08:02 PM
Is it just me, or did Oregon just mop the floor with Stanford?

Yeah, they did but the fact is that Boise State has beat 2 teams that were in the top 25 when they played them.

Oregon has played New Mexico-School of the Blind, Portland State School of Hacks, Tennessee and Stanford....i mean come on.

And I know that the last 2 years BSU mopping Oregon doesnt mean anything, but their strength of schedule of 32 compared to Oregon's 81.....should.

JoeJoeBrown
10-04-2010, 12:15 AM
1) OSU should be #2. They actually play defense. Defense is required to win championships. Offenses can, and will be stifled occasionally, no matter how awesome.
2) Oregon has a great offense. Fun to watch.
3) Anyone regurgitating ESPN hyperbole needs to step in front of a moving train.
4) Last season OSU's D quieted a prolific Oregon O. This is relevant this season. A good, disciplined D can stop that offense. The biggest reason is the Oregon O-Line is not able to do their thing against a good front 7. Many of the offensive players are the same, and the coaching is the same. It's not identical, but it's similar, and similar skillsets would stop it.

Smooth Criminal
10-04-2010, 07:41 AM
I'd still go Ohio State, but its a close call. Both teams have 1 nice win over a top 25 program. At this point, I just think OSU would beat Oregon.

Definitely love seeing Oregon hop Boise. Oklahoma should by the end of the year as well. Shame they wont play Nebraska until a possible matchup in a Big 12 title game.

I'd love to see this season finish with 5-6 undefeated teams. If that wouldn't show the need for a playoff I don't know what would.

I can easily see Bama, OSU, Boise, Oklahoma/Nebraska, TCU/Utah, all going undefeated. Nebraska wont even see a ranked team unless the make it to the Big 12 title game.

LizardState
10-04-2010, 12:11 PM
Voted Oregon, they can actually play defense better than Stanford when they have to.

Told ya Bama will play an opponent for the NC from a state beginning with the letter O.

Don't forget that Oklahoma begins with that letter too.

RealityCheck
10-04-2010, 12:22 PM
Alabama will lose to South Carolina, Ohio State will lose to Michigan, Oregon will lose to USC.

The NC will be Boise vs. TCU. It's happening, dudes.

Sniper
10-04-2010, 12:42 PM
Ohio State will lose to Michigan

<333333333

bearsfan_51
10-04-2010, 01:11 PM
Alabama will lose to South Carolina, Ohio State will lose to Michigan, Oregon will lose to USC.

The NC will be Boise vs. TCU. It's happening, dudes.
A one loss Alabama would still make the NC game over Boise State or TCU. Believe that, brother!

http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Hulk_Hogan/hulk_hogan.jpg

jrdrylie
10-04-2010, 01:18 PM
Oregon has serious issues on defense. ASU and Stanford both dropped 31 points against the Ducks. They could easily lose two games this year. And they didn't look good against Tennessee. They were tied at halftime. It was not until UT got tired due to lack of depth that Oregon could do anything.

Ohio State will not lose to Michigan this year. That is just crazy. If Robinson continues to carry the ball 20 times a game, he will get hurt. Plus, the game is in Columbus and Ohio State does not lose in the Shoe.

RealityCheck
10-04-2010, 03:30 PM
A one loss Alabama would still make the NC game over Boise State or TCU. Believe that, brother!

http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Hulk_Hogan/hulk_hogan.jpg
That's why I hate the BCS.

Oh hey Hulk.

BuddyCHRIST
10-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Just based on what theyve done this year (which is all it should be) I'll go with Oregon. I think theyll end up losing and OSU will probably be there in the end, but right now Oregon has been very good. I though Stanford was the most impressive team outside of Bama before this past weekend.

Shane P. Hallam
10-04-2010, 04:46 PM
Does it matter? It doesn't. If both go undefeated, Ohio State is going to the National Title based on name alone.

And anyone who said the Pac-10 isn't better than the Big Ten is crazy...

JoeJoeBrown
10-04-2010, 04:59 PM
597 yards given up by Oregon in one game.

That is why they have no business sniffing #2.

keylime_5
10-04-2010, 05:18 PM
Does it matter? It doesn't. If both go undefeated, Ohio State is going to the National Title based on name alone.

And anyone who said the Pac-10 isn't better than the Big Ten is crazy...

so having 3 top 25 teams is better than having 6?

keylime_5
10-04-2010, 05:23 PM
Just based on what theyve done this year (which is all it should be) I'll go with Oregon. I think theyll end up losing and OSU will probably be there in the end, but right now Oregon has been very good. I though Stanford was the most impressive team outside of Bama before this past weekend.

i think if oregon faces a team with a decent front 7 it's all over for them. They gave up 600 yards to Arizona State. If Ohio State was giving up those kind of yards and points every week people would be going berserk no matter how good the offense is. You can't win a title without playing D, especially when it's been shown before that your offense isn't invincible.

Giantsfan1080
10-04-2010, 05:24 PM
Since when is number of teams in the Top 25 the definitive view on how to judge a conference? The Big Ten only has 5 teams in their by the way.

keylime_5
10-04-2010, 05:32 PM
well Penn State just recently dropped out. PSU and Northwestern are likely top 25 quality. Pac Ten has at least 3 and no more than 5 top 25 quality teams....Big Ten looks like they have about 7. Middle and bottom of the Pac Ten isn't as strong as the middle and bottom of the Big Ten this year even if the top 3 are just as strong.

Shane P. Hallam
10-04-2010, 06:01 PM
so having 3 top 25 teams is better than having 6?

There is more to a conference than that. Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona are very very good. USC is still a solid team that could compete with most Big Ten teams. I'd argue Oregon State is Top 25 caliber as well, and Arizona State isn't so shabby. I'd take the Pac-10 over the SEC this year myself.

keylime_5
10-04-2010, 06:22 PM
I'm not buying USC. They have talent but they play down to their competition every week. They lost to Washington and nearly lost to Minnesota. Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona are all real good, top 15 teams....but Big Ten has Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Michigan State all solidly in the top 25 and should be there all year. PSU and Northwestern are very solid teams, both at least as good as USC and Arizona State. Indiana isn't bad, their offense will get them 7 or 8 wins this year. Big Ten is up this year, Pac Ten isn't quite as deep. They are a 3 team league. We'll see in bowl season who is for real, but last bowl season was fantastic for the Big Ten and that was before Michigan had a killer offense.

Shane P. Hallam
10-04-2010, 06:25 PM
I'm not buying USC. They have talent but they play down to their competition every week. They lost to Washington and nearly lost to Minnesota. Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona are all real good, top 15 teams....but Big Ten has Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Michigan State all solidly in the top 25 and should be there all year. PSU and Northwestern are very solid teams, both at least as good as USC and Arizona State. Indiana isn't bad, their offense will get them 7 or 8 wins this year. Big Ten is up this year, Pac Ten isn't quite as deep. They are a 3 team league. We'll see in bowl season who is for real, but last bowl season was fantastic for the Big Ten and that was before Michigan had a killer offense.

And I'm not buying Wisconsin. We can be even.

keylime_5
10-04-2010, 06:27 PM
you don't think Wisky is top 25? They lost a close call on the road against a pretty good MSU team, but they can run the ball and play defense. Even if they are fringe in the end there's still way more depth in the Big Ten than the Pac Ten. None are what the SEC is still even in a down year. USC, Bama, Arkansas, Florida, and Auburn are legit top 20 teams.

SickwithIt1010
10-05-2010, 12:16 AM
And I'm not buying Wisconsin. We can be even.

Im not buying Michigan, theyve played a bunch of hacks that shouldnt even be on the same field as them.

hawkeye123
10-05-2010, 12:59 AM
I'm not buying USC. They have talent but they play down to their competition every week. They lost to Washington and nearly lost to Minnesota. Oregon, Stanford, and Arizona are all real good, top 15 teams....but Big Ten has Ohio State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Michigan State all solidly in the top 25 and should be there all year. PSU and Northwestern are very solid teams, both at least as good as USC and Arizona State. Indiana isn't bad, their offense will get them 7 or 8 wins this year. Big Ten is up this year, Pac Ten isn't quite as deep. They are a 3 team league. We'll see in bowl season who is for real, but last bowl season was fantastic for the Big Ten and that was before Michigan had a killer offense.

A 3 team league?

One of the bottom two schools in the Pac-10 just completely shut out Texas, and i don't care how bad they are this year cause they still get the top recruits in the country.

Arizona State, one of the bottom half teams was an extra point away from going into overtime with Wisconsin, on the road.

I don't buy your argument that cause the big ten has more schools ranked means theyre a tougher conference, by the end of the year that number will be equal. Michigan and Northwestern have no business being ranked.

Razor
10-05-2010, 05:13 AM
LaMichael James >>>>> OSU

bearsfan_51
10-05-2010, 05:18 AM
USC didn't nearly lose to Minnesota. They slept for a half and then woke up and crushed us.

Northwestern did, however, almost lose to Minnesota. They should have, in fact.

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 07:36 AM
LaMichael James >>>>> OSU

He was awesome last year against them. What, 70 yards in the Rose Bowl?

Real defense tends to make you look pretty pedestrian.

Razor
10-05-2010, 08:13 AM
He was awesome last year against them. What, 70 yards in the Rose Bowl?

Real defense tends to make you look pretty pedestrian.

I think averaging 4.7 ypc (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=300012483) is acceptable against OSU. Nice try though...

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 08:43 AM
I think averaging 4.7 ypc (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=300012483) is acceptable against OSU. Nice try though...

You are moving the goalpost. You said he was a ton greater than OSU. The kid couldn't even get 100 yards. I think he's a great little back, but come on now.

jrdrylie
10-05-2010, 08:47 AM
I think averaging 4.7 ypc (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=300012483) is acceptable against OSU. Nice try though...

Actually, he had one good run of 30 yards. Everything else was for very few yards, or even negative yards. Take out his one good play and he averaged 2.8 ypc. So no, I wouldn't really call his performance acceptable.

AntoinCD
10-05-2010, 09:04 AM
Actually, he had one good run of 30 yards. Everything else was for very few yards, or even negative yards. Take out his one good play and he averaged 2.8 ypc. So no, I wouldn't really call his performance acceptable.

Oh...you mean Chris Johnson syndrome. Short gain, no gain, short gain, run for loss, big gain. But I suppose if you take out his big runs last year he wont be a 2000 yard rusher either!!!

keylime_5
10-05-2010, 09:32 AM
LaMichael James >>>>> OSU

yeah, 15 carries for 70 yards, he really owns Ohio State. take out the one big run and it's 14 carries for 30 yards.

Razor
10-05-2010, 09:40 AM
Oh...you mean Chris Johnson syndrome. Short gain, no gain, short gain, run for loss, big gain. But I suppose if you take out his big runs last year he wont be a 2000 yard rusher either!!!

Haha, this is exactly what I mean! Everybody looooves CJ"2K", but when it comes to other players the same rules apparently doesn't apply... *sigh* James is arguably the most dynamic runner in the NCAA. I think he'll be a lot better if they meet OSU again, he was only a RS freshman last year.

Smooth Criminal
10-05-2010, 09:40 AM
But the run happened so it would be ******** to just take it out.

keylime_5
10-05-2010, 09:42 AM
i know, but it's not like he really had 4.7 yards every time he touched the ball. he had a bunch of losses and really short gains and then a big 30 yard run. I think James is a fantastic player, but what's with this James>>>>OSU nonsense?

Razor
10-05-2010, 09:49 AM
i know, but it's not like he really had 4.7 yards every time he touched the ball. he had a bunch of losses and really short gains and then a big 30 yard run. I think James is a fantastic player, but what's with this James>>>>OSU nonsense?

It's an average, I can't see how that's so hard to understand. Including the OSU game James averaged 6.9 ypc, which is pretty damn good. It doesn't matter if he was stopped for a loss one or more times or how many times he ran for less than 4.7 yards, it's simply irrelevant.

Sniper
10-05-2010, 09:49 AM
James is arguably the most dynamic runner in the NCAA.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/on-down-the-line-notre-dame-football/Michigan_Notre_Dame_Football.sff_45877_team.jpg

Oh, hey, what's up?

Razor
10-05-2010, 09:50 AM
http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts__40/ept_sports_ncaaf_experts-185603579-1284322211.jpg?ymjeswDDAY9XxyYU

Oh, hey, what's up?

Haha, point taken. I only thought about RBs, but Denard is definetly up there.. But I'd still like to see him perform like this over the span of a season, but he has looked really, really good.

keylime_5
10-05-2010, 09:59 AM
It's an average, I can't see how that's so hard to understand. Including the OSU game James averaged 6.9 ypc, which is pretty damn good. It doesn't matter if he was stopped for a loss one or more times or how many times he ran for less than 4.7 yards, it's simply irrelevant.

of course it was his "average" but that one 30 yard run skews it a bit. He was doing badly in that game outside of one good run. 4.7 isn't great in college football anyway, it's decent but it's not outstanding, especially considering one run bumped it up a whole lot.

Razor
10-05-2010, 10:04 AM
of course it was his "average" but that one 30 yard run skews it a bit. He was doing badly in that game outside of one good run. 4.7 isn't great in college football anyway, it's decent but it's not outstanding, especially considering one run bumped it up a whole lot.

Chris Johnson had a 5.6 ypc last season. But if I were to follow your logic CJ is a terrible player because I have to disregard every big run he makes? Come on...

iowatreat54
10-05-2010, 10:19 AM
The lack of basic statistical understanding when it comes to sports and fans is pretty entertaining sometimes. (not just here, in general)

Yes, James averaged 4.7 ypc against OSU, but just because it's called "Average Yards per Carry" doesn't mean it's automatically representative of performance, or even average performance. If you have 14 similar outputs, and one ridiculously high/low output, the one that is not like the others is a statistical outlier. Does it count? Absolutely, why shouldn't it? But it skews perceptions on the data set as a whole. To say James averaged 4.7 ypc would indeed be correct, but if you wanted to represent his true performance based on a statistical average, you would have to go more indepth into statistical formulas that weighs each out put separately and accounts for outliers, rather than saying each of the 15 runs were equal.

I suck at stats, so I have no idea how to do that.

Other than that, James is pretty ridiculous and electrifying, but to say James >>>> OSU because he averaged 4.7 ypc is dumb. I mean, even without all the boring stuff I just wrote about, 4.7 ypc in college for one game is not great, and actually pretty average.

Razor
10-05-2010, 10:29 AM
The lack of basic statistical understanding when it comes to sports and fans is pretty entertaining sometimes. (not just here, in general)

Yes, James averaged 4.7 ypc against OSU, but just because it's called "Average Yards per Carry" doesn't mean it's automatically representative of performance, or even average performance. If you have 14 similar outputs, and one ridiculously high/low output, the one that is not like the others is a statistical outlier. Does it count? Absolutely, why shouldn't it? But it skews perceptions on the data set as a whole. To say James averaged 4.7 ypc would indeed be correct, but if you wanted to represent his true performance based on a statistical average, you would have to go more indepth into statistical formulas that weighs each out put separately and accounts for outliers, rather than saying each of the 15 runs were equal.

I suck at stats, so I have no idea how to do that.

You can't put weights on statistical outliers, at least not something I've ever done in my work with statistics. Basically, iirc, you can't really account for outliers without creating a bias but perhaps somebody else knows something about this. I agree that a 30 yard run is an outlier, but in football you can't really say that it's an anomaly. To go back to the CJ example, one would have to account for all of his 22 runs of 20+ yards and his 7 runs of 40+ yards last year to determine if he had a great season? No. And 4.7 ypc is pretty good against a big, strong OSU DL. And his 6.9 ypc for the season is everything but average, so I stand by my initial statement. And Oregon should be ranked #2.

Edit:

Other than that, James is pretty ridiculous and electrifying, but to say James >>>> OSU because he averaged 4.7 ypc is dumb. I mean, even without all the boring stuff I just wrote about, 4.7 ypc in college for one game is not great, and actually pretty average.
And if you go back and look at my initial post you'll find that I didn't reference the OSU game, another poster did. I meant this year. But if it makes you feel better about your sorry existence to call somebody you don't know dumb then go ahead...

keylime_5
10-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Oregon has given up like 1000+ yards and 62 points the last two weeks and they should move up in the rankings? If they play a team with a front seven like Alabama's or Ohio State's they won't put up those gaudy offensive stats. I just don't follow the logic and they won't and shouldn't get in the NC game over OSU if both go undefeated I am certain of that.

iowatreat54
10-05-2010, 10:57 AM
You can't put weights on statistical outliers, at least not something I've ever done in my work with statistics. Basically, iirc, you can't really account for outliers without creating a bias but perhaps somebody else knows something about this. I agree that a 30 yard run is an outlier, but in football you can't really say that it's an anomaly. To go back to the CJ example, one would have to account for all of his 22 runs of 20+ yards and his 7 runs of 40+ yards last year to determine if he had a great season? No. And 4.7 ypc is pretty good against a big, strong OSU DL. And his 6.9 ypc for the season is everything but average, so I stand by my initial statement. And Oregon should be ranked #2.

Edit:


And if you go back and look at my initial post you'll find that I didn't reference the OSU game, another poster did. I meant this year. But if it makes you feel better about your sorry existence to call somebody you don't know dumb then go ahead...

First and foremost, your original post referencing James compared to OSU was:



That's it. There is no explaination or note that you indeed meant for this season only. Furthermore, if you want to compare James to OSU's defense, the most logical comparison would be from their only meeting. If you want to say this year only, then that obviously doesn't work, but then your argument is entirely baseless and opinionated, and thus not a good argument at all.

Additionally, I never called you dumb, so get don't get your panties in a bunch. I said that saying James >>>> OSU is dumb, because it is. It's a dumb statement and argument based on little to no substance, and what little substance there is would actually show James is slightly above average at best compared to OSU's D.

Second, I understand that you can't overanalyze a players every single play in order to show the type of player he is. It would be tedious, and not the best indicator of him overall. However, for a one game basis, it is entirely acceptable to analyze performance based on each play, especially when it's something like carries which is usually around 20 per game. That's not a lot. Further, I didn't say it was the best way to do it, only that it would be more accurate than using simple averages to determine a single perceived performance. Using simple averages is good when you have a large sample size because it tends to follow a norm, but for a single game you can't assume it is the norm.

Finally, I said 4.7 ypc is pretty average for a normal game at RB. It obviously becomes more impressive depending on the strength of the opponent (OSU for example), however, 4.7 ypc even vs. OSU is still good, not great, as was contested in this thread. I believe someone said James faired pretty well against OSU with a 4.7 ypc, which is true, but it's not like he had a great game.

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 11:17 AM
First and foremost, your original post referencing James compared to OSU was:



That's it. There is no explaination or note that you indeed meant for this season only. Furthermore, if you want to compare James to OSU's defense, the most logical comparison would be from their only meeting. If you want to say this year only, then that obviously doesn't work, but then your argument is entirely baseless and opinionated, and thus not a good argument at all.

Additionally, I never called you dumb, so get don't get your panties in a bunch. I said that saying James >>>> OSU is dumb, because it is. It's a dumb statement and argument based on little to no substance, and what little substance there is would actually show James is slightly above average at best compared to OSU's D.

Second, I understand that you can't overanalyze a players every single play in order to show the type of player he is. It would be tedious, and not the best indicator of him overall. However, for a one game basis, it is entirely acceptable to analyze performance based on each play, especially when it's something like carries which is usually around 20 per game. That's not a lot. Further, I didn't say it was the best way to do it, only that it would be more accurate than using simple averages to determine a single perceived performance. Using simple averages is good when you have a large sample size because it tends to follow a norm, but for a single game you can't assume it is the norm.

Finally, I said 4.7 ypc is pretty average for a normal game at RB. It obviously becomes more impressive depending on the strength of the opponent (OSU for example), however, 4.7 ypc even vs. OSU is still good, not great, as was contested in this thread. I believe someone said James faired pretty well against OSU with a 4.7 ypc, which is true, but it's not like he had a great game.

All well put. There are many ways to measure impact. Statistics can be manipulated many different ways. For example, one could try and measure how many first downs he picked up in short yardage situations. How often did he get stuffed? Etc...

The fact is, he is a great running back, and he is exciting to watch. I just took umbrage with Razor's post that he is uber-greater than OSU. The only recent measuring point is a game that occurred 6 games ago, with teams that haven't had a lot of turnover.

A game which OSU's D dominated. A game in which OSU's offense stayed on the field for 40+ minutes. Boring ball control offense and stiffling defense. The kind of offense where Tressel settles for 3 instead of going balls out to get 7 (I don't like it, as it's lost more games than it should have by keeping games close and putting way too much pressure on the D).


Look at the drive chart. That's ownage. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/drivechart?gameId=300012483)

iowatreat54
10-05-2010, 11:32 AM
All well put. There are many ways to measure impact. Statistics can be manipulated many different ways. For example, one could try and measure how many first downs he picked up in short yardage situations. How often did he get stuffed? Etc...

The fact is, he is a great running back, and he is exciting to watch. I just took umbrage with Razor's post that he is uber-greater than OSU. The only recent measuring point is a game that occurred 6 games ago, with teams that haven't had a lot of turnover.

A game which OSU's D dominated. A game in which OSU's offense stayed on the field for 40+ minutes. Boring ball control offense and stiffling defense. The kind of offense where Tressel settles for 3 instead of going balls out to get 7 (I don't like it, as it's lost more games than it should have by keeping games close and putting way too much pressure on the D).


Look at the drive chart. That's ownage. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/drivechart?gameId=300012483)

This was mainly my point. I didn't mean to offend Razor or anyone, I just meant to point out that it was a dumb argument to say James was so much better than OSU, whether it was based on overall, one game, or this year. It's just a dumb argument.

Also that using ypc isn't the end all be all of evaluating performance, or even that indicative when looking at a small sample size such as one game or 15 carries. A simple average such as ypc can be easily construed if there is a low number of examples because outliers have such a high impact on the outcome. That is why you need to account for them in small sample sizes, and not lump them in as equal to all others.

And again, I think James is a great college RB and is extremely exciting, but he had a decent game at best vs. OSU (in terms of running games vs. OSU's D), and was actually pretty much shut down save for one fluke run. And yes, it was a fluke in relation to his overall game that day.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-05-2010, 11:54 AM
Looking at Lamichael James' game against OSU and Chris Johnson's 2000 yard season ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

When you're looking at one game where he had one semi-long run that is a major outlier from everything else, you get the best indication of his actual effectiveness.
When you look at a whole season, where CJ proved time and time again he could break long runs, it makes no sense to discount all of his long runs. No one has ever suggested that. It's a case of MULTIPLE long runs vs. ONE SINGLE CARRY of 30 yards.

iowatreat54
10-05-2010, 12:07 PM
Thank you Christopher for basically saying what I wanted to say without sounding as dumb or confusing as I did. You are an inspiration.

YAYareaRB
10-05-2010, 12:28 PM
NO Boise option? I'm gone

Giantsfan1080
10-05-2010, 12:34 PM
Yeah but last year James was known to break a huge run in every single game he played in. His long runs per game were 17, 27, 45, 36, 26, 49, 56, 33, 60, 51, 22, and 52. Obviously like Johnson breaking a long run during the course of a game is part of James' track record.

bearsfan_51
10-05-2010, 12:49 PM
NO Boise option? I'm gone
You people are out of your minds if you think Boise State would get in before an undefeated Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Arizona, or ANY undefeated team from the SEC.

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 01:30 PM
Yeah but last year James was known to break a huge run in every single game he played in. His long runs per game were 17, 27, 45, 36, 26, 49, 56, 33, 60, 51, 22, and 52. Obviously like Johnson breaking a long run during the course of a game is part of James' track record.

Again, 70 yards against the Buckeyes. 42% of which were on one single run.

That's a pretty mediocre game. He did not come close to owning the Buckeyes as Razor asserted.

That's all that everyone (and it looks like people who don't like the Bucks are included in this) is trying to explain.

Personally, I would love to have him start for OSU, but the statement was ridiculous.

superman
10-05-2010, 01:38 PM
pretty close voting

gonna give it to oregon though

soybean
10-05-2010, 01:44 PM
pretty close voting

gonna give it to oregon though

awesome sig.

Giantsfan1080
10-05-2010, 01:50 PM
I was commenting towards Chris saying that there's a previous pattern for James to have a long run in a game that increases his rushing average which is similar to Johnson. Yes it was only one game but James was known to do that all of last year so it does matter when looking at his game against Ohio State. I don't he dominated but he did have a very good game you can't just take out the long run.

Sniper
10-05-2010, 02:37 PM
Again, 70 yards against the Buckeyes. 42% of which were on one single run.

47 percent of Terrelle Pryor's passing yards against Miami came on two plays. One was a shovel pass to Dan Herron and the other a bomb to DeVier Posey, yet all the Ohio State fans were using this to boost Pryor's Heisman resume. See, we can do this both ways.

P-L
10-05-2010, 02:49 PM
I don't he dominated but he did have a very good game you can't just take out the long run.
You can't ignore it, but you have to look at it logically. The guy carried the ball 15 times and was a total non-factor on 14 of those carries. He did not have a good game because his running hurt Oregon more than he helped them. You can't just look at his average and pretend that one successful run makes up for 14 [mostly] unsuccessful ones.

As for the poll question, I don't know yet. I have been more impressed with Oregon this year than I have Ohio State. With that said, I think Ohio State would beat them head-to-head.

Giantsfan1080
10-05-2010, 02:54 PM
Yes you're right PL but that's part of James running style. In previous games he has a track record of having a similar statistical pattern of having 1 very long run per game. If this was a one time thing I'd say your right but it wasn't.

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 03:03 PM
47 percent of Terrelle Pryor's passing yards against Miami came on two plays. One was a shovel pass to Dan Herron and the other a bomb to DeVier Posey, yet all the Ohio State fans were using this to boost Pryor's Heisman resume. See, we can do this both ways.

Which is fine, I don't think Pryor has any business being in the Heisman chase. Also, you are ignoring total performance in the game (70 yds = subpar if you are going to say you are owning someone in a loss vs 233 yds = average in a win.)

You must be fun at parties.

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 03:06 PM
You can't ignore it, but you have to look at it logically. The guy carried the ball 15 times and was a total non-factor on 14 of those carries. He did not have a good game because his running hurt Oregon more than he helped them. You can't just look at his average and pretend that one successful run makes up for 14 [mostly] unsuccessful ones.

As for the poll question, I don't know yet. I have been more impressed with Oregon this year than I have Ohio State. With that said, I think Ohio State would beat them head-to-head.

Well reasoned and therein lies the problem and joy of CFB: Too many teams, nowhere near enough direct competition, and the transitive property just doesn't work in common opponent comparisons. Too many variables.

P-L
10-05-2010, 03:08 PM
Yes you're right PL but that's part of James running style. In previous games he has a track record of having a similar statistical pattern of having 1 very long run per game. If this was a one time thing I'd say your right but it wasn't.
If you take LaMichael James' longest run from each regular season game last season and separate them from the rest he still averaged a very respectable 4.9 yards per carry while his long runs averaged out to be 39.5 yards per carry. There is a huge difference between averaging about 5 yards a carry then breaking a 40 yarder and averaging less than 3 yards a carry then breaking a 30 yarder. His track record says that he is a very consistent running back who can make a huge play once or twice per game. Against Ohio State, he looked like a poor running back who ended up making one big play.

keylime_5
10-05-2010, 03:48 PM
47 percent of Terrelle Pryor's passing yards against Miami came on two plays. One was a shovel pass to Dan Herron and the other a bomb to DeVier Posey, yet all the Ohio State fans were using this to boost Pryor's Heisman resume. See, we can do this both ways.

yes but outside of those 2 plays Pryor still had a great day against Miami. Without those 2 big plays he still had 100+ rushing yards and 2 touchdowns and no turnovers and he did pass for like 230 yards in that game or something like that, so taking away 47% of 230 still leaves over 100 yards passing, on a rainy day to boot.
Also, no one going around posting Terrelle Pryor>>>>>>>Miami.

Not quite the same as having 40 yards on 14 carries plus a 30 yard run. Even if you don't take away the 30 yard run like everyone is saying, 70 yards on 15 carries is just decent, not great.

iowatreat54
10-05-2010, 04:20 PM
Which is fine, I don't think Pryor has any business being in the Heisman chase. Also, you are ignoring total performance in the game (70 yds = subpar if you are going to say you are owning someone in a loss vs 233 yds = average in a win.)

You must be fun at parties.

Sniper is a lot of fun at parties....pants parties. At my pants parties. Sex.

Since I've yet to contribute as to the original topic, here it goes.

Right now, I think OSU really hasn't done enough to deserve to be replaced at #2. Sure, they struggled vs. an underwhelming Illinois team, but imo the game was never in doubt. That said, Oregon has looked better overall, and their win over Stanford is better than any win OSU has, imo.

So, you have the one team who is pretty boring but built on a great D that allows them to have off days on offense and still feel comfortable. Or, you have the seemingly unstoppable offense that will score on anyone, anytime, but also let any team score on them anytime.

So my choice: The ESU Timberwolves.

lowlife
10-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Since Oregon has Casey Matthews they automatically win out in every tiebreaker.

You can't discount the Matthews factor.
Sackmaster.

Sniper
10-05-2010, 04:58 PM
Which is fine, I don't think Pryor has any business being in the Heisman chase. Also, you are ignoring total performance in the game (70 yds = subpar if you are going to say you are owning someone in a loss vs 233 yds = average in a win.)

You must be fun at parties.

But you're playing the "let's remove the big plays to help my case" argument. Why can't I do the same?

I'm awesome at parties, thank you. It's probably time for you to come up with a new line, though. It's only the 17th time you've used that.

Sniper
10-05-2010, 05:00 PM
taking away 47% of 230 still leaves over 100 yards passing, on a rainy day to boot.

OH MY GOD? 100 yards? Wow. ******* superstar passer over here. Man, what a stud.

Also, no one going around posting Terrelle Pryor>>>>>>>Miami.

Um, considering the fact that every Buckeye fan is using the Miami game as an indicator of Pryor's superior development as a passer and as a reason for his supremacy over the world, it's about the same.

JoeJoeBrown
10-05-2010, 05:15 PM
But you're playing the "let's remove the big plays to help my case" argument. Why can't I do the same?

I'm awesome at parties, thank you. It's probably time for you to come up with a new line, though. It's only the 17th time you've used that.

That was the first time I've used that joke. I made fun of you living in your mom's basement before :)

No, I was using the argument "70 yards is pretty damn average, and I agree with others that it looks worse when you take out one long run on an otherwise crappy day."

And stop with the hyperbole, not every Buckeye fan thinks TP is the end all be all. I thought he looked pretty average that day. If Miami DBs had hands, the game might have been a bit scary/bad.

The fact is, TP is an amazing athlete and an OK QB. I actually think Denard has a great short range pass, and a pretty good medium range ball. I will take TP in the bomb department, but it's not far and away.

Running I think Denard is much more dynamic, able to cut up and hit a tiny hole where there shouldn't be one. He can also house it. TP is more of a giant fast guy, someone that I'd rather have on 4th and 1.

Imagine TP and Denard running the wildcat. That would well nigh unstoppable.

Babylon
10-05-2010, 05:21 PM
Oregon has given up like 1000+ yards and 62 points the last two weeks and they should move up in the rankings? If they play a team with a front seven like Alabama's or Ohio State's they won't put up those gaudy offensive stats. I just don't follow the logic and they won't and shouldn't get in the NC game over OSU if both go undefeated I am certain of that.

I hate Oregon but i think beating a top 5 caliber team in Stanford trumps OSU beating Miami.

As for the numbers you can play that game all day and i'm not sure how much it means, Oregon has only given up 75 points all year and teams tend to give up yards in games when 2nd and 3rd stringers are out there.

JoeJoeBrown
10-11-2010, 12:00 PM
I'm fine with Oregon being number two.

wonderbredd24
10-11-2010, 12:19 PM
Um, considering the fact that every Buckeye fan is using the Miami game as an indicator of Pryor's superior development as a passer and as a reason for his supremacy over the world, it's about the same.
When have you ever seen me praise Pryor as a passer, let alone his development as one?

keylime_5
10-11-2010, 01:57 PM
OH MY GOD? 100 yards? Wow. ******* superstar passer over here. Man, what a stud.



Um, considering the fact that every Buckeye fan is using the Miami game as an indicator of Pryor's superior development as a passer and as a reason for his supremacy over the world, it's about the same.

Well 120 yards after you take away 47% isn't bad on a rainy ****** day, especially considering he was trying to throw down field every play since 8 guys were in the box. And people aren't just using the Miami game to show Pryor's progress, they're using every game since January 1st and it's pretty evident.