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DBNYDP
12-21-2010, 05:06 PM
Any good 4-3 MLB's this year? Like dominant MLB's that teams can rely on to anchor the defense for years to come, while on the note of 4-3...how about defensive ends?
Thanks!

Shepard from LSU seems like he could be a good player at the MLB position.
Could Jones from MSU fit that role? I think he's too small but..

keylime_5
12-21-2010, 05:17 PM
They won't go in the first round, maybe not even the 2nd or 3rd round, but Greg Jones from Michigan State and Casey Matthews from Oregon are two guys that will get a lot of love from fans pre-draft as 4-3 MLBs. Jones is small, but in some systems he could work in the middle.

What's not to love about another Matthews? His uncle is in the HOF, his dad should be in the HOF, his brother leads the NFC in sacks.

Morton
12-21-2010, 07:36 PM
I could see both Greg Jones from Michigan State and Travis Lewis from Oklahoma being this type of hard-nosed, instinctive MLB.

Maybe not physical freaks like Brian Urlacher, but solid MLBs in the EJ Henderson / James Laurinitis mold.

It's not really about the size of the MLB as it is about his instincts, his toughness, and his technique.

wonderbredd24
12-21-2010, 07:38 PM
I think the 4-3 in general is becoming like the 3-4 used to be... it just seems like guys who only fit the 4-3 can be had at a very nice value in the draft, especially 4-3 defensive tackles and linebackers.

DBNYDP
12-21-2010, 08:04 PM
Broncos also need some leadership on defense, so I'd look for whoever the player is to have that quality in addition to good individual play. I thought Kelvin Sheppard might fit that mold.

BeerBaron
12-21-2010, 08:49 PM
I think the 4-3 in general is becoming like the 3-4 used to be... it just seems like guys who only fit the 4-3 can be had at a very nice value in the draft, especially 4-3 defensive tackles and linebackers.

This this and more this. I really pity any teams who are going to try and transition to the 3-4 this year with new coaches.....before the season, 15 teams by my count ran at least some form of the 3-4.

And it extends beyond linebackers. Drake Nevis (and Geno Atkins last year) has no place in the 3-4, so he could be a mega steal in the 3rd round for some 4-3 team.

As for linebackers, I do like Casey Matthews. I think Greg Jones might be better suited to the outside in a 4-3 at the pro level, but it could just be me.

There really aren't that many good inside linebackers this year for either scheme though imo. It's just a weak position.

Morton
12-21-2010, 09:13 PM
And it extends beyond linebackers. Drake Nevis (and Geno Atkins last year) has no place in the 3-4, so he could be a mega steal in the 3rd round for some 4-3 team.


Nevis isn't falling into the 3rd round dude. He's in the top 32 list of prospects on Scouts Inc. He's easily the third best 4-3 DT prospect behind Fairley and Dareus.

Maybe top of the 2nd round at worst.

A Perfect Score
12-21-2010, 10:22 PM
Nevis isn't falling into the 3rd round dude. He's in the top 32 list of prospects on Scouts Inc. He's easily the third best 4-3 DT prospect behind Fairley and Dareus.

Maybe top of the 2nd round at worst.

ZOMGZ! TOP 32 ON A WEBSITE!

Grow up.

The point Baron is making, and its an excellent one, is that someone like Nevis is going to fall, maybe to the third round, because the base 4-3 defense is a dying breed. Outside of the pure Tampa 2 teams like Indy, Tampa and Chicago and the occasional base team like Jacksonville, nobody runs it anymore, and if they do its a weird offshoot like the Giants run with 5 down lineman since the Elephant backer has become so popular. Moreover, alot of the teams who run the pure 4-3 don't have a need at DT, as they just finished cashing in on the great DT class last year. Nevis isn't going to test as well as some of the other 4-3 DT prospects like Paea, and Id expect him to be at least 4th off the board to a 4-3 team. He could definitely slide to late second, early third.

Froman
12-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Scott Lutrus of UConn and Mason Foster of UDUb are studs.

Morton
12-22-2010, 09:40 AM
ZOMGZ! TOP 32 ON A WEBSITE!

Grow up.

The point Baron is making, and its an excellent one, is that someone like Nevis is going to fall, maybe to the third round, because the base 4-3 defense is a dying breed. Outside of the pure Tampa 2 teams like Indy, Tampa and Chicago and the occasional base team like Jacksonville, nobody runs it anymore, and if they do its a weird offshoot like the Giants run with 5 down lineman since the Elephant backer has become so popular. Moreover, alot of the teams who run the pure 4-3 don't have a need at DT, as they just finished cashing in on the great DT class last year. Nevis isn't going to test as well as some of the other 4-3 DT prospects like Paea, and Id expect him to be at least 4th off the board to a 4-3 team. He could definitely slide to late second, early third.

The problem is that Nevis is a classic penetrating 4-3 DT, and even though 4-3 defenses are not in vogue, guys like that will NEVER slip into the 3rd round. Not gonna happen. I guarantee he doesn't fall out of the second round and will probably be selected in the first.

The point I'm making is that even though you think all of these excellent 4-3 prospects will drop into never-neverland and be scooped up by those few remaining 4-3 teams, it isn't exactly that drastic. These guys, at least the top 3-4 guys at each 4-3 position, are still highly in demand.

Also, for the record, teams that run the 4-3 as their base defense and would covet a player like Drake Nevis as early as the first round:

New York Giants
Jacksonville
Indianapolis
Chicago
Philadelphia
Minnesota
Detroit
Atlanta
New Orleans
Tampa Bay
Carolina
Seattle
St. Louis
Cincinnatti
Tennessee
Houston
Oakland

That's more than 50% of the teams in the NFL who would be eager to take a chance on a player like Nevis as early as the first round, imo. Especially since the top 2 4-3 DT prospects, Fairley and Dareus, will likely be gone by the top 15 picks. If any one of these teams listed above is targeting a pass-rushing DT, Nevis will be off the board next.

Think about that. Even though the 4-3 is a "dying breed" as you call it, more than 50% of the NFL is still running it. It's *still* the majority in the NFL.

A Perfect Score
12-22-2010, 09:45 AM
The problem is that Nevis is a classic penetrating 4-3 DT, and even though 4-3 defenses are not in vogue, guys like that will NEVER slip into the 3rd round. Not gonna happen. I guarantee he doesn't fall out of the second round and will probably be selected in the first.

The point I'm making is that even though you think all of these excellent 4-3 prospects will drop into never-neverland and be scooped up by those few remaining 4-3 teams, it isn't exactly that drastic. These guys, at least the top 3-4 guys at each 4-3 position, are still highly in demand.

Also, for the record, teams that run the 4-3 as their base defense and would covet a player like Drake Nevis as early as the first round:

New York Giants
Jacksonville
Indianapolis
Chicago
Philadelphia
Minnesota
Detroit
Atlanta
New Orleans
Tampa Bay
Carolina
Seattle
St. Louis
Cincinnatti
Tennessee
Houston
Oakland

That's more than 50% of the teams in the NFL who would be eager to take a chance on a player like Nevis as early as the first round, imo. Especially since the top 2 4-3 DT prospects, Fairley and Dareus, will likely be gone by the top 15 picks. If any one of these teams listed above is targeting a pass-rushing DT, Nevis will be off the board next.

Think about that. Even though the 4-3 is a "dying breed" as you call it, more than 50% of the NFL is still running it. It's *still* the majority in the NFL.

Bolded teams don't have a need at DT or just finished drafting young DTs in recent years. So while your 50% argument was really well thought out and stuff...uhhh...Id say Nevis has a realistic shot of being taken by one of 7 teams in the first 2 rounds, and if he makes it past them, Id imagine he's into the third. Now Im not saying I dont like Nevis, because I do and I think he's a solid second rounder, but Id have to think Fairley and Paea are both ahead of him as 4-3 prospects and Id imagine Dareus will be drafted to play the 5 tech inside the Top 10.

EDIT: Also, as I pointed out in my original post, lots of those teams don't use a base 4-3 with classic defensive tackle roles. The Giants play with the elephant backer on a large number of plays, the Raiders are in transition to a 3-4 and have been using a hybrid system this season from what I understand, Jacksonville has been experimenting with both looks for several seasons...It is a dying breed. The system is being phased out due to the inability to create a pass rush unless you have a dominant front 4 or blitz every play.

Saints-Tigers
12-22-2010, 09:59 AM
Can't speak for everyone, but DT is one of the Saints biggest needs.

Morton
12-22-2010, 10:01 AM
Bolded teams don't have a need at DT or just finished drafting young DTs in recent years. So while your 50% argument was really well thought out and stuff...uhhh...Id say Nevis has a realistic shot of being taken by one of 7 teams in the first 2 rounds, and if he makes it past them, Id imagine he's into the third. Now Im not saying I dont like Nevis, because I do and I think he's a solid second rounder, but Id have to think Fairley and Paea are both ahead of him as 4-3 prospects and Id imagine Dareus will be drafted to play the 5 tech inside the Top 10.

You can't assume things about teams that don't "need" a certain type of player.

- The Giants didn't need a DE last year but they drafted Jason Pierre-Paul in the first round. You think they don't need a DT this year but a team that treasures pass-rush so highly might pull another Pierre-Paul type of move. Barry Cofield and Rocky Bernard are getting older. Maybe they take a DT high this year to compliment their young DEs?

- The Eagles don't currently have a pass-rushing DT on their team. All of their DTs are average run-stuffers. The last DT they drafted was in 2008, in the second round. Maybe they try to upgrade their interior pass-rush with a low first round pick?

- Minnesota's DTs are old and on the cusp of retiring. Pat Williams in particular may not even have another year left in him. Don't you think the Vikings would take a shot at Nevis with their high second round pick?

- Detroit has Suh and Corey Williams. Drafting another elite defensive lineman to compliment Suh, even if it means rotating him with Williams, might take their defensive line over the top. I would except them to draft a DE if they go this route, but Nevis might be a target if they want to develop him behind Corey Williams.

- Atlanta's pass rush is decent but not dominating. A one-gap penetrating DT such as Nevis would greatly improve this unit on their defense.

- New Orleans has Sedrick Ellis, but the rest of their DT rotation is mediocre. Why wouldn't they take a chance on a player like Nevis early in the draft? They don't have too many other holes on their team.

- Cincinnati's pass rush is pretty bad this year. I think they have some nice young DEs to develop such as Carlos Dunlap, but their interior defensive line is ineffective. Adding a DT like Nevis in the first or second round would be a great move for their defense.

The point in all this is that pass rush is so, so important in today's NFL that even if one of the many 4-3 teams "appears" to be set at that position, a talented, top-3-at-his-position player like Nevis will be selected by one of these teams high (either with a low first round pick or a high second round pick) simply because pass rush is so coveted by most teams. Barring injury concerns, I don't see him falling past the middle of the second round. There are just too many teams, like the Bengals, Eagles, Giants, Saints, etc who would be willing to take a chance on a pass-rushing DT to bolster their rotation. You can never have too many pass-rushers.

A Perfect Score
12-22-2010, 10:08 AM
You can't assume things about teams that don't "need" a certain type of player.

- The Giants didn't need a DE last year but they drafted Jason Pierre-Paul in the first round. You think they don't need a DT this year but a team that treasures pass-rush so highly might pull another Pierre-Paul type of move. Barry Cofield and Rocky Bernard are getting older. Maybe they take a DT high this year to compliment their young DEs?


Linval Joseph in the second round last year.

- The Eagles don't currently have a pass-rushing DT on their team. All of their DTs are average run-stuffers. The last DT they drafted was in 2008, in the second round. Maybe they try to upgrade their interior pass-rush with a low first round pick?

Or maybe they try and improve their porous secondary or add a linebacker who isn't Ernie Sims or perpetually injured? They've got alot invested in that defensive line already, even inside.

- Minnesota's DTs are old and on the cusp of retiring. Pat Williams in particular may not even have another year left in him. Don't you think the Vikings would take a shot at Nevis with their high second round pick?

Not with the larger needs they have in the secondary and at QB. The defensive line is low on the list of Vikings priorities. If they do go there, Id imagine it would be later. Could happen, but I wouldnt bet on it.

- Detroit has Suh and Corey Williams. Drafting another elite defensive lineman to compliment Suh, even if it means rotating him with Williams, might take their defensive line over the top. I would except them to draft a DE if they go this route, but Nevis might be a target if they want to develop him behind Corey Williams.

No way in hell. If they add anywhere along the defensive line, its at DE. They have Sammie Lee Hill coming along in the middle as a good rotational player as well

- Atlanta's pass rush is decent but not dominating. A one-gap penetrating DT such as Nevis would greatly improve this unit on their defense.

Just drafted Peria Jerry and John Babineaux is playing lights out. Next.

- New Orleans has Sedrick Ellis, but the rest of their DT rotation is mediocre. Why wouldn't they take a chance on a player like Nevis early in the draft? They don't have too many other holes on their team.

Id venture to assume they'd go linebacker, but I guess this could be a landing spot for Nevis.

- Cincinnati's pass rush is pretty bad this year. I think they have some nice young DEs to develop such as Carlos Dunlap, but their interior defensive line is ineffective. Adding a DT like Nevis in the first or second round would be a great move for their defense.

Geno Atkins is a very similar player to Nevis who has played extremely well this season. I don't see why they'd sink another pick into the DT position with Atkins and Peko there.

The point in all this is that pass rush is so, so important in today's NFL that even if one of the many 4-3 teams "appears" to be set at that position, a talented, top-3-at-his-position player like Nevis will be selected by one of these teams high (either with a low first round pick or a high second round pick) simply because pass rush is so coveted by most teams. Barring injury concerns, I don't see him falling past the middle of the second round. There are just too many teams, like the Bengals, Eagles, Giants, Saints, etc who would be willing to take a chance on a pass-rushing DT to bolster their rotation. You can never have too many pass-rushers.

Responses in bold. I agree with your general principle, but I dont think its unheard of for someone like Nevis to fall on draft day because of a lack of need.

Morton
12-22-2010, 10:18 AM
Linval Joseph in the second round last year.


So they drafted a big run-stuffer NT type of player in the second round. That doesn't mean they won't want to compliment him with a one-gap penetrator at some point, does it?


Or maybe they try and improve their porous secondary or add a linebacker who isn't Ernie Sims or perpetually injured? They've got alot invested in that defensive line already, even inside.


If you knew the Eagles front office and how they operate, you'd realize that they NEVER EVER will invest high draft picks in a linebacker. They just won't. The only players on defense they will draft in the first round are defensive linemen and cornerbacks. This year they will probably go after a cornerback, but I wouldn't be shocked to see them snap up a player like Nevis if he falls into the lower part of the first round where they will be picking. The theory is that a strong pass rush makes the secondary better by default.


Not with the larger needs they have in the secondary and at QB. The defensive line is low on the list of Vikings priorities. If they do go there, Id imagine it would be later. Could happen, but I wouldnt bet on it.


The Vikings defensive scheme is built around a strong defensive line. The cornerbacks in a Tampa-2 do not need to be elite cover corners and thus can be found in later rounds of the draft. The defensive linemen, however, need to be elite players and thus must be targeted early. I think Nevis would be simply snapped up in a flash by the Vikings if he falls to their high second round pick. I don't doubt that they will go QB in the first round, but I'd be shocked if they pick CB before DL after that point.


No way in hell. If they add anywhere along the defensive line, its at DE. They have Sammie Lee Hill coming along in the middle as a good rotational player as well


Perhaps. But if an elite DT prospect falls to you, say, in the top of the second round where the Lions will be picking in the 32-38 range, as a smart GM you simply grab that up. It doesn't matter if you already have a "guy" you're trying to develop; you can *never* have too much talent on the defensive line.


Just drafted Peria Jerry and John Babineaux is playing lights out. Next.


I'm not that familiar with Atlanta's roster, but again, you can never have too many pass rushers.


Id venture to assume they'd go linebacker, but I guess this could be a landing spot for Nevis.


Yup.


Geno Atkins is a very similar player to Nevis who has played extremely well this season. I don't see why they'd sink another pick into the DT position with Atkins and Peko there.


They have like less than 25 sacks on the year, I think. This is another team like the Lions and the Vikings that will be picking high, and will probably not target a defensive lineman with their first round pick, but if someone like Nevis falls to their high second round pick, I would not be shocked to see them snap him up based on value alone.

DBNYDP
12-22-2010, 02:27 PM
Only way I can see Nevis going in the third round is if his combine is just mediocre. But based on film alone, this is a guy who is right up there with Fairley as the #1 DT in this draft (I'm a huge Fairley fan, and I hate LSU so I'm really not being too biased here). If he does drop to the 3rd, and the Broncos snatch him up there I would be doing jumping jacks (Assuming we go with something like Fairley/Jones/Rashad)

Morton
12-22-2010, 04:47 PM
Only way I can see Nevis going in the third round is if his combine is just mediocre. But based on film alone, this is a guy who is right up there with Fairley as the #1 DT in this draft (I'm a huge Fairley fan, and I hate LSU so I'm really not being too biased here). If he does drop to the 3rd, and the Broncos snatch him up there I would be doing jumping jacks (Assuming we go with something like Fairley/Jones/Rashad)

You should be doing jumping jacks if they get him in the 2nd round.