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View Full Version : Kellen Moore vs. Chad Pennington


PhinsRock
12-21-2010, 08:56 PM
I was wondering what everybody's thoughts are on Moore as an NFL QB prospect. What is the difference between him and Pennington when he came out?

Moore, like Chad, lacks zip on his passes, especially to the outside, but have great accuracy, touch down the field, smarts, leadership, etc.

What made Pennington a first rounder, but Moore an expected 3rd day guy?

ElectricEye
12-21-2010, 08:59 PM
About four inches, forty pounds, and a significantly stronger arm.

Saints-Tigers
12-21-2010, 09:00 PM
People really underestimate Pennington's accuracy and decision making.

fenikz
12-21-2010, 09:08 PM
plus most people only remember Pennington have his shoulder had been torn to shreds, that Pennington wouldn't have went in the 1st prob not 2nd or 3rd either

Grizzlegom
12-21-2010, 09:19 PM
People really underestimate Pennington's arm strength as a prospect. Yes he has a noodle arm now but he actually had a MUCH stronger arm coming out. All his shoulder surgeries are what took him from having 'good' arm strength to 'below average.' As a prospect, his arm wasn't any worst than a Mark Sanchez and was probably stronger than guys like John Beck, Matt Leinart, and Colt McCoy who are recent higher draft picks.

Brown Leader
12-21-2010, 09:23 PM
People really underestimate Pennington's arm strength as a prospect. Yes he has a noodle arm now but he actually had a MUCH stronger arm coming out. All his shoulder surgeries are what took him from having 'good' arm strength to 'below average.' As a prospect, his arm wasn't any worst than a Mark Sanchez and was probably stronger than guys like John Beck, Matt Leinart, and Colt McCoy who are recent higher draft picks.

Really? IDK about that.

BeerBaron
12-21-2010, 09:23 PM
This comparison is an insult to Pennington I'm sorry to say.

I will be absolutely shocked if Kellen Moore is drafted. He's a smaller, weaker armed Ken Dorsey, and that is being generous. With his arm strength, he might struggle to hold up a clipboard.

Brown Leader
12-21-2010, 09:32 PM
Arm strength and velocity are distinct from one another. Matt Hasselbeck has a weak arm but terrific velocity, same with Marc Bulger in his hey day or Fitzpatrick. Kellen Moore has enough velocity imo and looks very similar to Jeff Garcia.

BeerBaron
12-21-2010, 09:38 PM
Arm strength and velocity are distinct from one another. Matt Hasselbeck has a weak arm but terrific velocity, same with Marc Bulger in his hey day or Fitzpatrick. Kellen Moore has enough velocity imo and looks very similar to Jeff Garcia.

Almost all of his passes that travel more than 10 yards float in. If he gets to the NFL where defenders are faster and windows close in split seconds, he will struggle badly.

His best chance to make it in the pros is to learn to coach. And this is from a guy who loves him some Boise State.

ElectricEye
12-21-2010, 09:41 PM
If Ty Detmer can play in the NFL for a period of time, so can Kellen Moore. He'll be a clipboard guy for sure though, everyones third quarterback.

Halsey
12-21-2010, 10:03 PM
It seems like a pretty safe rule that if a prospect doesn't weigh at least 200lbs he's not going to be a starting QB in the NFL. I can't think of anyone since maybe Flutie to defy that rule, and that was years ago. Being under 200lbs means you're highly unlikely to be big and strong enough to play starting QB.

Brent
12-21-2010, 10:03 PM
I still like Chad Pennington.

Imagine if he wasnt forced to sit behind Vinny T for like three years.

I can't think of anyone since maybe Flutie to defy that rule, and that was years ago.
Jeff Garcia

Halsey
12-21-2010, 10:10 PM
I
Jeff Garcia

Everywhere I check has Gracia listed at 205. Moore's offcial Boise State bio has him listed at 191.

A Perfect Score
12-21-2010, 10:16 PM
Chad Pennington at Marshall had fine arm strength. Ive actually gone back and watched tape of Pennington there because of this exact argument, and people are correct in saying he's was on par with someone like Sanchez.

Kellen Moore has no business being in discussion as an NFL QB IMO.

Froman
12-21-2010, 10:19 PM
Moore lacks NFL mechanics. Similar to Josh Heupel. Nice college player but nothing more than an NFL backup.

49erNation85
12-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Moore lacks NFL mechanics. Similar to Josh Heupel. Nice college player but nothing more than an NFL backup.

How does he lack mechanics ? He comes out a pro style set every time in Boise.He can make all the reads he needs to down the field for pin point accuracy .He foot work is great IMO .I say the only thing lack him to becoming a starter in the is NFL arm strength .

Froman
12-22-2010, 12:08 AM
He's got a very ugly delivery and as you mentioned, lacks arm strength. His passes hang up in the air because he doesn't have the arm strength as a lefty to get much velocity on his throws. A lot of the things he gets away with in college he won't be able to in the NFL. Judging by your name I know your an optimistic person. He isn't even Tebow.

49erNation85
12-22-2010, 12:28 AM
Meh why is everything measures so much off of delivery ? I mean its much better then Tebow's by far . I mean he doesn't have to have the big arm like some of the guys do . But really who still has a bgi arm these days in the NFL ? OK so other then Delivery I think he really has the " IT " factory QB's need in the NFL .But we won't know until next year senior bowl and combine work out.I'm sure if he had the arm strength of Newton he'd be a top ten pick .

SickwithIt1010
12-22-2010, 01:19 AM
I think the guy will hold a clipboard for someone at least, the guy is far too accurate and has way too much poise. There are tons of guys that have been that size, and that have had worse arms than him making a living as a back up in this league so, i can see him going in the back half of the draft.

If his arm gets better next year, who knows.

DBNYDP
12-22-2010, 01:20 AM
People forget that before he got injured Chad Pennington was making a lot of noise in New York. He was pretty mobile, had a good arm if I remember correctly.

I've never been impressed by Moore. His arm isn't great,and his velocity is worse. He is accurate, and smart, but even then he will get torn apart in the NFL. Add in the fact that he probably can't see over most linemen well..

I think the guy who said his best chance is to become a coach is right. He definitely can do that well.

Froman
12-22-2010, 01:43 AM
Meh why is everything measures so much off of delivery ? I mean its much better then Tebow's by far . I mean he doesn't have to have the big arm like some of the guys do . But really who still has a bgi arm these days in the NFL ? OK so other then Delivery I think he really has the " IT " factory QB's need in the NFL .But we won't know until next year senior bowl and combine work out.I'm sure if he had the arm strength of Newton he'd be a top ten pick .

Being a southpaw, you better have the arm of Steve Young or Michael Vick if your gonna have the velocity on your throws to fit them into tight spots at the next level. Anyone with a shred of accuracy can hang passes up against college corners and have a good shot at a completion. At the next level, Kellen Moore doesn't complete these throws against Darrelle Revis or Champ Bailey. Josh Heupel, Tim Tebow, Timmy Chang, Tyler Palko, Pat White etc. These guys all proved that you can be wildly successful in college lacking NFL mechanics, while the jury's still out on Tebow (thanks to Josh McDaniels), you can look at the other names and see that they didn't quite cut it in the NFL. A lot has to do with delivery and mechanics if you're gonna be handed an NFL playbook.

DBNYDP
12-22-2010, 01:45 AM
Well Pat White...never dominated with his arm in college. Timmy didn't look to bad on Sunday.

Froman
12-22-2010, 01:48 AM
Well Pat White...never dominated with his arm in college. Timmy didn't look to bad on Sunday.

White's arm didn't look awful in college either, but you could tell it wasn't going to cut it in the NFL. Did Timmy Chang ever take a snap in a regular season game? I don't think he ever made it off a practice squad.

DBNYDP
12-22-2010, 01:50 AM
Oh I meant Timmy as in Tebow.

Froman
12-22-2010, 02:01 AM
Oh I meant Timmy as in Tebow.

Oh. The alarming thing to me is he looked like he was back at Florida. Which is great for that one game but can he really be Tim Tebow from Florida for 18 games of an NFL season. The touchdown...was ugly. It was a floater and should have been picked. Went right through 2 defenders hands. He's going to end up hurt running up the middle or with 4 picks a game if his mechanics never changed from college, which he tried to lead everybody to believe leading up to the draft. Just my opinion.

NotRickJames
12-22-2010, 02:05 AM
Future CFL quarterback.

DBNYDP
12-22-2010, 02:24 AM
Oh. The alarming thing to me is he looked like he was back at Florida. Which is great for that one game but can he really be Tim Tebow from Florida for 18 games of an NFL season. The touchdown...was ugly. It was a floater and should have been picked. Went right through 2 defenders hands. He's going to end up hurt running up the middle or with 4 picks a game if his mechanics never changed from college, which he tried to lead everybody to believe leading up to the draft. Just my opinion.
The throw was good. The decision was bad. The throw to ball was perfect and Ball dropped the ball on that one, so it all evens out.
It was his first game, on the road, against a division rival, with the worst game calling ever.
Lets reserve judgment and not say he is a bust/god yet.

Froman
12-22-2010, 03:05 AM
I tend to think, when a ball goes through a defenders hands, its luck more than skill if its ultimately caught by the receiver. I would not deem that a perfect pass. Another thing-nobody knew what to expect out of him. Was he going to run all game or would he really pass. Would he look like a changed person throwing the ball. And the answers are all out there now, on film. Just something to consider.

JLaw45
12-22-2010, 09:41 AM
White's arm didn't look awful in college either, but you could tell it wasn't going to cut it in the NFL. Did Timmy Chang ever take a snap in a regular season game? I don't think he ever made it off a practice squad.

Timmy Chang never even got onto a practice squad. The Cardinals, Lions and Eagles each cut him prior to the start of the regular season. 2006 was the last time he went to camp in the NFL(he had played in NFL Europe that year).

The next year he went to the CFL and played for 2 seasons. He wasn't very good up there(career numbers: 42-90, 467yds, 1TD, 7 INT), and his second CFL team(the winipeg Blue Bombers) cut him in 08. He hasn't been on any professional football roster seen since. Last i heard of him earlier this year(I think February) he had been sentenced to 6 months probation for robbery.

JLaw45
12-22-2010, 10:10 AM
Future CFL quarterback.

This is correct. It seems that all great Boise QBs end up in the CFL.

Ryan Dinwiddie, the guy who began Boise's rise to prominence in the early 2000's by upsetting David Carr's undefeated Fresno State, set the NCAA record for career QB rating(broken by Colt Brennan in 2007) and is still widely considered the best Boise QB ever?

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9826/439x0342045.jpg

Canada. Went up in 06 a year after the bears cut him and has been there since.

Jared Zabransky, engineer of one of the first truly great upsets Boise ever produced in one of the most memorable BCS bowl games ever played and NCAA Football coverboy in 2008?

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9128/storagecanoeca0303423.jpg

Also currently in Canada. Might even become a starter soon.

Kellen Moore might be even better than both of these guys, so I think he should at least get a chance in the NFL. If not, then history says he'll be up north. He fits the mold of a CFL QB(extremely accurate, very poised but not particularly big or strong-armed) perfectly.

And speaking of undersized QB prospects in recent years, Drew Tate is up there to:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2447/4cf71ab0cd915preview300.jpg

Just in case anyone(Iowa fans?) cares.

xxxxxxxx
12-22-2010, 10:13 AM
That bomb to Titus Young against nevada showed some arm strength..

DBNYDP
12-22-2010, 02:32 PM
I have a pretty negative opinion about the CFL, but I think he should try to get on an NFL team (Even a third string gets paid), and then after some time hopefully he can transition to coaching.

BeerBaron
12-22-2010, 02:50 PM
Jared Zabransky, engineer of one of the first truly great upsets Boise ever produced in one of the most memorable BCS bowl games ever played and NCAA Football coverboy in 2008?

Also currently in Canada. Might even become a starter soon.

Kellen Moore might be even better than both of these guys, so I think he should at least get a chance in the NFL. If not, then history says he'll be up north. He fits the mold of a CFL QB(extremely accurate, very poised but not particularly big or strong-armed) perfectly.

And speaking of undersized QB prospects in recent years, Drew Tate is up there to:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2447/4cf71ab0cd915preview300.jpg

Just in case anyone(Iowa fans?) cares.

Can't speak for Dinwiddie, before my time a bit, but Zebransky was also pretty athletic (he had 30 career rushing TDs) and bigger than Moore. Might not be by much, but an inch and ten pounds (over Moore's listed height/weight, which I think he'll check in smaller than) makes a difference.

I love me some Boise State and always hope they do well, and I think Kellen has had a great college career (still a year to go for him too) but he's just not an NFL QB.

goldenbear.cal
12-22-2010, 03:06 PM
So my question is, who is the better NFL QB prospect, Kellen Moore or Andy Dalton?

BeerBaron
12-22-2010, 03:12 PM
So my question is, who is the better NFL QB prospect, Kellen Moore or Andy Dalton?

I would take Dalton. He's actually a draftable prospect in my opinion. Even if he checks in a little less than his listed size, it would still be adequate while Moore is tiny even if he is his listed size. Dalton has a lot of starting experience and has been very productive for a great team.

He's definitely the better prospect of the two and definitely draftable imo.

FUNBUNCHER
12-22-2010, 03:38 PM
That bomb to Titus Young against nevada showed some arm strength..

This^^^

I was shocked to see Kellen threw that ball 55+ yards on the fly.
That to me demonstrated adequate NFL arm strength, and puts KM in the Marc Bulger category, at least.

I think Kellen has a great chance to be on some team's 3 deep at the start of the season, he just needs a shot.

And playing in Canada since there's no longer NFL Europe for these guys to hone their skills, is a great option for more than a few players.

The Phins OLB Cam Wake came out of Penn State and couldn't make and NFL roster, concentrated on becoming a pass rush specialist in the CFL, and the rest is history.

As for Pennington, IMO he was a very similar prospect to Matt Ryan when he left Marshall. Injuries are what derailed his career.

wicket
12-22-2010, 03:45 PM
This^^^

I was shocked to see Kellen threw that ball 55+ yards on the fly.
That to me demonstrated adequate NFL arm strength

every college QB can sling it 55 yards, the question is if he can throw a laser over 20ish yards that you need to be able to do in the nfl and I dont think moore can do that.

BeerBaron
12-22-2010, 04:06 PM
One pass absolutely does not demonstrate the arm strength. If you chose any Division 1 College QB and asked them to throw the ball as far as they possibly could, every single one of them should be able to sling the ball 50-60 yards.

Now, does it get there with velocity or does it hit a high point and float down? Is it accurate or does it just kind of float down like a punt and land within a radius around the intended target?

Moore is a touch passer who floats just about every pass attempt over 10 yards.

If you guys want him as your pro QB, you can have him. I will all but guarantee you that he will not be an NFL QB. Great college player, but he simply won't cut it at the pro level.

If you want a very recent example of a similar player struggling, look at Max Hall in Arizona this year. Very accurate passer, very productive in college, and wowed his pro coaches by learning the system so quickly. But when he actually got into live game action, he was completely in over his head. Pro defenders as a hwole are just so much faster than college defenders as a whole....windows close before they even appear to be open at times. An "open" receiver in the pros might have one step on the defender covering him...it takes more than accuracy to be able to complete the pass. You not only have to be accurate, but you have to get enough zip on the ball 15 or 20 yards down the field to squeeze the pass in there before the defender can make up the ground. If you float it, it could very easily go from big play to interception.