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View Full Version : Willis+Woodley=Great Draft Combo


DeathbyStat
03-21-2007, 09:40 AM
Could we potentally take Willis in the first and Woodley in the second?

mikehop05
03-21-2007, 10:18 AM
willis ran in the upper 4.3's at his pro day...

pretty damn amazing, though it'll be adjusted, still a 4.4

having said that, im not quite sure he'd be a great fit in the 3 - 4 at ilb, i havnt seen much of him on film, but what i have seen is that he isnt a great shed the block and thump guy, which is what you need for the 3 - 4

he is a hell ofa athlete though, i wish i could see more video of him that proves me wrong

DeathbyStat
03-21-2007, 11:00 AM
He think willis could speed rush off the edge if one of our 3-4 ends held the block fo him.

mikehop05
03-21-2007, 11:12 AM
whos he, tomlin?

he may be able to play OLB in the 3 - 4, that would be one hell ofa speed rush off the edge, though he doesnt really have the ideal height you look for

PittPete
03-21-2007, 11:48 AM
Willis might actually work out longterm but I don't see Woodley at all. He's too small for both end and olb in the nfl, and I don't think he has coverage skills at all.

mikehop05
03-21-2007, 12:57 PM
Willis might actually work out longterm but I don't see Woodley at all. He's too small for both end and olb in the nfl, and I don't think he has coverage skills at all.

his coverage skills yeah but he isnt too small for olb

skarocksoi
03-21-2007, 01:08 PM
He's not very fluid in the hips either. He's best suited as a DE, even though he is a bit undersized.

DeathbyStat
03-21-2007, 02:32 PM
whos he, tomlin?

he may be able to play OLB in the 3 - 4, that would be one hell ofa speed rush off the edge, though he doesnt really have the ideal height you look for

Sorry I meant I think not he thinks

DeathbyStat
03-21-2007, 02:34 PM
Scouts are saying that their impressed with his change of direction while running.

mikehop05
03-21-2007, 02:49 PM
ive always liked woodley and his motor, if we think he can play OLB then im all for it

BigRob
03-21-2007, 08:48 PM
I don' t have a subscription, but Jim Wexell says that the Steelers are keenly interested in Lamarr Woodley from Michigan as an OLB in the 3-4 and his pro-day last week sold them even further.

http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=68&p=2&c=628466&ssf=1&RequestedURL=http%3a%2f%2fsteelers.scout.com%2f2%2 f628466.html

is anyone a member to this site?

Basically says the Pro-day has sold Tomlin and Colbert on Woodley after reviewing his game tape.

richdg
03-22-2007, 09:31 AM
I am a huge Michigan fan, so: Please for the love of God do NOT draft Woodley!!!!!!!! If Tomlin and Colbert are sold after watching his game tape, they clearly didn't watch the OSU and USC games. Were Woodley disappeared. Yes, Woodley is a good guy. Yes, Woodley gives great effort. Yes, Woodley has heart. All of which are fine. But he is to small 6-1 and about 260 to play DE, he doesn't have the qucikness to play OLB. He was moved to DE at Michigan, because he doesn't cover well. There are better options out there than Woodley. Both at DE and OLB.

PittPete
03-22-2007, 09:54 AM
all my objections against woodley are the same ones I had against another UM player, Larry foote. Not big or fast enough for the NFL level. The first couple years I thought the steelers were wasting a roster spot by keeping him. Last year I thought Foote was our defensive MVP! So although I am not high on Woodley, who knows?

BigRob
03-22-2007, 12:41 PM
I am a huge Michigan fan, so: Please for the love of God do NOT draft Woodley!!!!!!!! If Tomlin and Colbert are sold after watching his game tape, they clearly didn't watch the OSU and USC games. Were Woodley disappeared. Yes, Woodley is a good guy. Yes, Woodley gives great effort. Yes, Woodley has heart. All of which are fine. But he is to small 6-1 and about 260 to play DE, he doesn't have the qucikness to play OLB. He was moved to DE at Michigan, because he doesn't cover well. There are better options out there than Woodley. Both at DE and OLB.

Woodley's timed speed compares favorably with every other DE/OLB tweener in the draft. His timed speed and stats compare very favorably with Shawn Merriman at the combine and at Maryland. The 3/4 OLB is more of a Rush Backer position and does not require great cover skills, and he has time to develop those he does need.

richdg
03-22-2007, 08:02 PM
Woodley has good timed speed. he does not change directions well at all. He doesn't have much in the way of moves. Woodley doesn't need to agin weight to play OLB. He should lose weight. But he simply is not quick enough. But at 6-1 gaining weight to play DE does work well either.
One of the mistakes we have made is getting rid of the OLB that is better at coverage. haggans is our rush LB. He isn't very good in coverage either. If we are sticking with the 3-4 Woodley will not have time to develop. He will ahve to play right away. This just isn't a good option.

BigRob
03-23-2007, 12:21 AM
Woodley has good timed speed. he does not change directions well at all. He doesn't have much in the way of moves. Woodley doesn't need to agin weight to play OLB. He should lose weight. But he simply is not quick enough. But at 6-1 gaining weight to play DE does work well either.
One of the mistakes we have made is getting rid of the OLB that is better at coverage. haggans is our rush LB. He isn't very good in coverage either. If we are sticking with the 3-4 Woodley will not have time to develop. He will ahve to play right away. This just isn't a good option.

Well of course your entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with you whole heartedly.

ironman4579
03-23-2007, 10:24 AM
deleted. Not my teams forum, not my place to say anything. Sorry for taking up the space.

mikehop05
03-23-2007, 11:57 AM
deleted. Not my teams forum, not my place to say anything. Sorry for taking up the space.

well if you know a lot about him go ahead and tell us what you think, judging by your sig you are obviusly a michigan fan so you probably have seen a lot more of him then us

as long as what you say isnt "omg omg woodley is the bestest ever"

Mr. Stiller
03-23-2007, 12:06 PM
Woodley has good timed speed. he does not change directions well at all. He doesn't have much in the way of moves. Woodley doesn't need to agin weight to play OLB. He should lose weight. But he simply is not quick enough. But at 6-1 gaining weight to play DE does work well either.
One of the mistakes we have made is getting rid of the OLB that is better at coverage. haggans is our rush LB. He isn't very good in coverage either. If we are sticking with the 3-4 Woodley will not have time to develop. He will ahve to play right away. This just isn't a good option.

I agree. I'd like to see us hold off until day 2 to pick up OLB prospects.

I'd like to see Tim Shaw, and a guy like Brian Robison/Brian Smith/Jason Trusnik/Marques Murrell/Jacob Ford/Mike McFadden.

Shaw can do coverage, play ILB/OLB in either 3-4/4-3 alignments.

Robison (Or other guys) can learn behind someone and come in on pass rushing situations and ST's.

I like Trusnik/Murrell and McFadden as UDFA's or 7th rounders.


I think Shaw, Robison as drafted, then sign Trusnik and McFadden... I think we'll work through camp and have an excellent young lb core in waiting.


Although I do want to sign almost all the guys from GVSU that are eligible..

Cullen Finnerty, QB
Ryan Fowler, WR
Mike McFadden, OLB
Derrick Jones, DE/OLB (6'4 272lbs 4.71 40')

ironman4579
03-24-2007, 03:11 PM
well if you know a lot about him go ahead and tell us what you think, judging by your sig you are obviusly a michigan fan so you probably have seen a lot more of him then us

as long as what you say isnt "omg omg woodley is the bestest ever"

OMG, WOODLEY IS TEH ROXXORZ!!! No just kidding. Seriously though, I'll give you my impression of Woodley, and I'll try to reference it to the post that said please don't take Woodley.

First off, Michigan really only went back to a 4-3 defense this year, so of course Woodley would be moved back to DE. Clearly he's not a 4-3 OLB, but the move back to DE had almost nothing to do with his inability at the position, and almost everything to do with the change in defensive philosophy brought in by Ron English IMO.

As far as disappearing in the OSU and USC games, he did have 4 tackles in the OSU game, and he was getting pressure, Smith was just getting the ball out of his hand because the secondary was having problems with OSU's speed. But I'll admit that he really had no impact in that game. As far as USC, he had 3 tackles and a sack. Not great, but not terrible either. And considering that was Michigan's ONLY sack in that game, I don't think it's completely awful.

And really, if you're looking at him as an 3-4 OLB, you have to look at him in that situation. He played OLB in '04 and '05.

'04 numbers at OLB
11 games played, 70 tackles, 16 TFL, 4 sacks, 4 pass break ups, 3 forced fumbles.

And let's not forget the '04 Rose Bowl against Texas when he had 11 tackles and 4 tackles for loss.

'05 numbers at OLB
9 games played(slight injury), 48 tackles, 12 TFL, 5 sacks, 1 pass break up, 1 fumble recovery and 3 more forced fumbles.

So in 2 season as an 3-4 OLB, he averaged 59 tackles, 14 TFL, 4.5 sacks, 2.5 PBU's, and 3 forced fumbles. I don't think that's too terrible honestly. In fact I always thought he was a better OLB than DE.

And let's not forget, Woodley has basically played a different position all 4 years at Michigan(he actually played the rush backer position in '05) so he hasn't really had the chance to learn the ins and outs of any position. He just makes plays on instinct right now. If he actually got a set position and was able to get some coaching on that position, I think he could be an absolute monster. And I would also think his willingness to play a different position evey year shows what type of player and teammate he is.

That's obviously my personal opinion on him, and I am certainly not trying to say he has no flaws. He is pretty weak in coverage at this point. Sometimes he struggles to read the play. He has decent speed for his size, but he's not going to blow you away. I think his change of direction is better than he's been given credit for, but I agree that it's not exactly "elite"

So anyway, take all of that for what it's worth. Just my opinion.

mikehop05
03-24-2007, 03:35 PM
OMG, WOODLEY IS TEH ROXXORZ!!! No just kidding. Seriously though, I'll give you my impression of Woodley, and I'll try to reference it to the post that said please don't take Woodley.

First off, Michigan really only went back to a 4-3 defense this year, so of course Woodley would be moved back to DE. Clearly he's not a 4-3 OLB, but the move back to DE had almost nothing to do with his inability at the position, and almost everything to do with the change in defensive philosophy brought in by Ron English IMO.

As far as disappearing in the OSU and USC games, he did have 4 tackles in the OSU game, and he was getting pressure, Smith was just getting the ball out of his hand because the secondary was having problems with OSU's speed. But I'll admit that he really had no impact in that game. As far as USC, he had 3 tackles and a sack. Not great, but not terrible either. And considering that was Michigan's ONLY sack in that game, I don't think it's completely awful.

And really, if you're looking at him as an 3-4 OLB, you have to look at him in that situation. He played OLB in '04 and '05.

'04 numbers at OLB
11 games played, 70 tackles, 16 TFL, 4 sacks, 4 pass break ups, 3 forced fumbles.

And let's not forget the '04 Rose Bowl against Texas when he had 11 tackles and 4 tackles for loss.

'05 numbers at OLB
9 games played(slight injury), 48 tackles, 12 TFL, 5 sacks, 1 pass break up, 1 fumble recovery and 3 more forced fumbles.

So in 2 season as an 3-4 OLB, he averaged 59 tackles, 14 TFL, 4.5 sacks, 2.5 PBU's, and 3 forced fumbles. I don't think that's too terrible honestly. In fact I always thought he was a better OLB than DE.

And let's not forget, Woodley has basically played a different position all 4 years at Michigan(he actually played the rush backer position in '05) so he hasn't really had the chance to learn the ins and outs of any position. He just makes plays on instinct right now. If he actually got a set position and was able to get some coaching on that position, I think he could be an absolute monster. And I would also think his willingness to play a different position evey year shows what type of player and teammate he is.

That's obviously my personal opinion on him, and I am certainly not trying to say he has no flaws. He is pretty weak in coverage at this point. Sometimes he struggles to read the play. He has decent speed for his size, but he's not going to blow you away. I think his change of direction is better than he's been given credit for, but I agree that it's not exactly "elite"

So anyway, take all of that for what it's worth. Just my opinion.

thats some good stuff and i appreciate the insight,

it seems like we are decently interested in woodley, and all in all i think his motor makes up for his less than ideal size, though what concerns me is his coverage abilities

if we grab him in the 3rd i would be happy with that

BigRob
03-24-2007, 10:22 PM
I have heard scouts say he is actually a better pass rush in a stand up role in the 3-4. I also understand that he is not the best in coverage, neither is Shawn Merriman or many pure rush backers.

richdg
03-29-2007, 02:04 PM
Woodley played with his hand on the ground since his freshman year. Weither you call that a DE or OLB doesn't matter. He does not cover well. To compare him to a 3-4 LB, he is a less talented version of Haggans. He isn't as tall, nor is he as fast. I like the guy, but he is a classic example of a good college player that may not make it as a pro.

TNewFan41
03-29-2007, 02:07 PM
Woodley is one of those classic great college players who doesn' do anything in the NFL. Hate to say it, but its true.

ironman4579
03-29-2007, 02:16 PM
Woodley played with his hand on the ground since his freshman year. Weither you call that a DE or OLB doesn't matter. He does not cover well. To compare him to a 3-4 LB, he is a less talented version of Haggans. He isn't as tall, nor is he as fast. I like the guy, but he is a classic example of a good college player that may not make it as a pro.

No, he was a true OLB in the 3-4 in '04 and a rush backer in the 3-4 in '05. He might have had his hand on the ground once in a while, moreso in '05(actually I would say most of the time in the '05 season) but he was a stand up LB. I'm not saying he'll be a superstar, I'm simply saying he has experience as a true OLB in the 3-4. Would he be better as a rush backer, like a Merriman Role, just let him get after the QB? Absolutely.

richdg
03-29-2007, 07:57 PM
Sorry, but you are wrong. I watch every Michigan game, and have been to several over the past few years. Woodley played almost every down with his hand on the ground.
The best player to compare Woodley to is James Hall. The former Lions DE. He isn't as tall as Hall is however. But they play the same type of game.

ironman4579
03-30-2007, 10:41 AM
Seriously, go back to '04. I'll give you that most of the time in '05 he had his hand on the ground, but not '04. However. my memory always has a chance of being faulty. Perhaps I can dig up some tape from '04. I'f I am wrong, I'll let you know.

richdg
03-30-2007, 08:26 PM
In trueth, it doesn't matter. The fact is Woodley plays DE, because he is not comforatble dropping back into covarge. He has been playing with his hand down, because he is better in the DE position. Be it for 2 years, 3 years, or 4 years. Woodley is not a good fit with the Steelers. There are much better options out there.

ironman4579
03-30-2007, 09:27 PM
In trueth, it doesn't matter. The fact is Woodley plays DE, because he is not comforatble dropping back into covarge. He has been playing with his hand down, because he is better in the DE position. Be it for 2 years, 3 years, or 4 years. Woodley is not a good fit with the Steelers. There are much better options out there.

Honestly, I would give you that one, simply because in a 3-4, Woodley would be better as a rush backer in a Merriman type role and, despite not knowing a ton about the Steelers, that really doesn't seem to be your biggest need right now.

BigRob
04-02-2007, 10:50 AM
In trueth, it doesn't matter. The fact is Woodley plays DE, because he is not comforatble dropping back into covarge. He has been playing with his hand down, because he is better in the DE position. Be it for 2 years, 3 years, or 4 years. Woodley is not a good fit with the Steelers. There are much better options out there.

Dude, Get a pharking clue. At least do a little research before you think you know what you are talking about.

Everyone seems to think that Woodley is a second round pick. I don't see it. He will go first round like Kiwanuka did last year after his stock dropped. The Patriots have supposedly worked him out in private and are considering using one of their two first round picks on him.

I love how versatile the kid is despite how many feel about him. Some interesting tidbits about him:

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=192126&format=&page=1

"The buy-in was what got the corner turned. And no one profited like Woodley. TWICE AND ALL-BIG EN PICK AT LINEBACKER, he became a consensus first-team All-American up front while winning the Lombardi Award (nation’s top lineman), the Ted Hendricks Award (top defensive end) and national defensive player of the year honors from Rivals.com.

Along the way, he further developed the on-field versatility that the Patriots crave.

In a 3-4 as a sophomore, HE PLAYED AS AN ON-THE-LINE 'BACKER. In a 4-3 as a junior, HE WAS AN OUTSIDE LINEBACKER and end in the Wolverines’ over and under fronts. As a senior, when new defensive coordinator Ron English installed a Tampa-2 hybrid, he played a more traditional 4-3 end.

Better yet, Woodley never complained. Winning was his concern and had been since Day 1, when he was converted from high school linebacker to college end and put on the field as a true freshman."

All Big-Ten twice as a 'Backer and he can't play OLB in our 3-4?

Get a clue man. When you have two very respected franchises that really like a player, you might need to start re-evaluating what you know. Which is apparently not very much. This kid has suceeded in every scheme he has played and that includes a Tampa-2 type system.

I am not saying he's going to be the pick at 15, but you know that Tomlin has to like his versatility.

BigRob
04-02-2007, 10:51 AM
Honestly, I would give you that one, simply because in a 3-4, Woodley would be better as a rush backer in a Merriman type role and, despite not knowing a ton about the Steelers, that really doesn't seem to be your biggest need right now.

Thats our major need right now. That and OL.

ironman4579
04-02-2007, 11:27 AM
Thats our major need right now. That and OL.

Well then I'd have to say he'd be a perfect fit honestly.

Mr. Stiller
04-11-2007, 09:07 AM
Dude, Get a pharking clue. At least do a little research before you think you know what you are talking about.

Everyone seems to think that Woodley is a second round pick. I don't see it. He will go first round like Kiwanuka did last year after his stock dropped. The Patriots have supposedly worked him out in private and are considering using one of their two first round picks on him.

I love how versatile the kid is despite how many feel about him. Some interesting tidbits about him:

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=192126&format=&page=1

"The buy-in was what got the corner turned. And no one profited like Woodley. TWICE AND ALL-BIG EN PICK AT LINEBACKER, he became a consensus first-team All-American up front while winning the Lombardi Award (nation’s top lineman), the Ted Hendricks Award (top defensive end) and national defensive player of the year honors from Rivals.com.

Along the way, he further developed the on-field versatility that the Patriots crave.

In a 3-4 as a sophomore, HE PLAYED AS AN ON-THE-LINE 'BACKER. In a 4-3 as a junior, HE WAS AN OUTSIDE LINEBACKER and end in the Wolverines’ over and under fronts. As a senior, when new defensive coordinator Ron English installed a Tampa-2 hybrid, he played a more traditional 4-3 end.

Better yet, Woodley never complained. Winning was his concern and had been since Day 1, when he was converted from high school linebacker to college end and put on the field as a true freshman."

All Big-Ten twice as a 'Backer and he can't play OLB in our 3-4?

Get a clue man. When you have two very respected franchises that really like a player, you might need to start re-evaluating what you know. Which is apparently not very much. This kid has suceeded in every scheme he has played and that includes a Tampa-2 type system.

I am not saying he's going to be the pick at 15, but you know that Tomlin has to like his versatility.

... Spencer is a better 3-4 OLB Prospect. Imagine a more powerful faster version of Shaun Phillips. Woodley has coverage problems, and is short, and slow. If I ever have a question on a Michigan question I ask Richdg, because he is a Michigan Fanatic. If he says Woodley can't play OLB I listen and Agree. He knows the Michigan Players.

Woodley would be best fit in a Freeney role. Just pass rush at DE. Don't worry about the run, or coverage, just get to the QB. We need someone a little more functional.

Also. Don't think that because the rumors saying that "New England is infatuated with Player X and is willing to use their first round pick". ****, If I were a GM i'd be starting rumors like that all the time, that way my guy falls to my pick.

Up until his Pro-Day Woodley was slated as a rd 3-4 Guy. There's still a large group of scouts that don't like his 3-4 OLB capability. We've worked him out already, but I haven't heard much from Pittsburgh.

BigRob
04-11-2007, 06:29 PM
... Spencer is a better 3-4 OLB Prospect. Imagine a more powerful faster version of Shaun Phillips. Woodley has coverage problems, and is short, and slow. If I ever have a question on a Michigan question I ask Richdg, because he is a Michigan Fanatic. If he says Woodley can't play OLB I listen and Agree. He knows the Michigan Players.

Woodley would be best fit in a Freeney role. Just pass rush at DE. Don't worry about the run, or coverage, just get to the QB. We need someone a little more functional.

Also. Don't think that because the rumors saying that "New England is infatuated with Player X and is willing to use their first round pick". ****, If I were a GM i'd be starting rumors like that all the time, that way my guy falls to my pick.

Up until his Pro-Day Woodley was slated as a rd 3-4 Guy. There's still a large group of scouts that don't like his 3-4 OLB capability. We've worked him out already, but I haven't heard much from Pittsburgh.

Spencer has never played a snap at OLB. Every scout out there says Spencer is better suited to play DE in a 4-3 and not OLB in 3-4. The Steelers always draft at least one player they interview every year. Guess what? Spencer so far has not been invited to interview with the Steelers and the Steelers have already interviewed Woodley.

If a player is All Big-Ten Linebacker, Twice, that would lead most people to believe he is capable of playing a Rush Backer position. I am not advocating him in the first at 15. But I would consider him in the Second very strongly.

Mr. Stiller
04-11-2007, 09:21 PM
Spencer has never played a snap at OLB. Every scout out there says Spencer is better suited to play DE in a 4-3 and not OLB in 3-4. The Steelers always draft at least one player they interview every year. Guess what? Spencer so far has not been invited to interview with the Steelers and the Steelers have already interviewed Woodley.

If a player is All Big-Ten Linebacker, Twice, that would lead most people to believe he is capable of playing a Rush Backer position. I am not advocating him in the first at 15. But I would consider him in the Second very strongly.

I'll consider him too, but he's slow, short and he's a liability in coverage. The Steelers interview 30 players a year. Hopefully they draft atleast 1 of those 30 to know what they're getting.

mikehop05
04-11-2007, 09:42 PM
i wouldnt touch him at 15, maybe second, but id rather have robinson or crowder

Mr. Stiller
04-11-2007, 09:46 PM
i wouldnt touch him at 15, maybe second, but id rather have robinson or crowder

I don't think crowder is more than a DE.

If Anderson isn't our 1st rounder, I take Spencer Rd 2. DeOssie rd 4, and If Robison is around, take him, Matt King, or Brian Smith later.

And Sign Jason Trusnik.

mikehop05
04-11-2007, 09:48 PM
we should get anderson regardless of whther or not we have to trade up a few spots to get him, im in love with him after his article on espn

Mr. Stiller
04-11-2007, 09:51 PM
we should get anderson regardless of whther or not we have to trade up a few spots to get him, im in love with him after his article on espn

As am I but the cost to move up 3-5 spots (To guarentee getting him is our 2nd rounder). I like it, but too many other needs to give up another day 1 pick.

IF we could do it in a Starks trade, Trade away.

mikehop05
04-11-2007, 09:55 PM
As am I but the cost to move up 3-5 spots (To guarentee getting him is our 2nd rounder). I like it, but too many other needs to give up another day 1 pick.

IF we could do it in a Starks trade, Trade away.

i really hope we get him thhough, the guy is amazing

BigRob
04-12-2007, 09:44 AM
I'll consider him too, but he's slow, short and he's a liability in coverage. The Steelers interview 30 players a year. Hopefully they draft atleast 1 of those 30 to know what they're getting.

Spencer (6-2 5/8, 265) ran 4.69 and 4.71

Woodley (6-1 265 pounds) was invited to the Combine but did not run in Indy. He ran two 40s in 4.74 and 4.84

All accounts of Woodley's Workout said on the 4.84 forty he slipped and would have ran a very comparable time to Spencer.

Your acting like their two different players. Spencer is exactly 1 inch shorter than Woodley and weighs the same, he is maybe a 3/10's of a second faster in the 40. Woodley's arm length is the same or longer than any other defensive line prospect.

The main difference is Woodley's actually played OLB before and played in the 3-4.

Sorry, but the Steelers aren't even sniffing around Spencer at this point.

richdg
04-12-2007, 04:53 PM
Again, let me repeat. Woodley did not play OLB. He had his hand on the ground as a DE for the last 3 1/2 years. He switched to DE from OLB because he is not good or comfortable in pass defense. He is a DE, he is the same type of player as James Hall.

mikehop05
04-12-2007, 11:00 PM
well if the main difference is that woodley played like 20 snaps maybe at OLB, then i would say they are the same player

Mr. Stiller
04-13-2007, 12:46 AM
Spencer (6-2 5/8, 265) ran 4.69 and 4.71

Woodley (6-1 265 pounds) was invited to the Combine but did not run in Indy. He ran two 40s in 4.74 and 4.84

All accounts of Woodley's Workout said on the 4.84 forty he slipped and would have ran a very comparable time to Spencer.

Your acting like their two different players. Spencer is exactly 1 inch shorter than Woodley and weighs the same, he is maybe a 3/10's of a second faster in the 40. Woodley's arm length is the same or longer than any other defensive line prospect.

The main difference is Woodley's actually played OLB before and played in the 3-4.

Sorry, but the Steelers aren't even sniffing around Spencer at this point.

Anthony Spencer(Combine)

Height: 6027
Weight: 261
40 Yrd Dash: 4.70
20 Yrd Dash: 2.74
10 Yrd Dash: 1.64
Wonderlic:
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 30
Vertical Jump: 32 1/2
Broad Jump: 9'4"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.43
3-Cone Drill: 7.14

Spencer (Pro Day

Height: 6027
Weight: 261
40 Yrd Dash: 4.69
20 Yrd Dash: 2.76
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56

LaMarr Woodley (Pro Day)

Height: 6014
Weight: 266
40 Yrd Dash: 4.74
20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
10 Yrd Dash: 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 29
Vertical Jump: 38 1/2
Broad Jump: 9'9"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.42
3-Cone Drill:


Woodley Reminds me of a Slower/weaker dwight freeney, whereas Spencer reminds me of a more powerful/faster Phillips.

We talked to Spencer at his pro-day and Combine. We also did the same with Jamaal Anderson.

I'm still thinking we might Take Beason....

But If Anderson fell, we wouldn't take him because we haven't invited him? Perhaps we're not tipping our hand?

And one of the reasons Michigan didn't run a 3-4, is because Woodley COULDN"T cover.

He's too slow and lacks the hips.

They had perfect lineup for 3-4 Defense.

Woodley, Harris, Burgess, Crable
DE, NT, Branch

But Woodley wasn't good in coverage, hence the 4-3.

BigRob
04-13-2007, 09:20 AM
Again, let me repeat. Woodley did not play OLB. He had his hand on the ground as a DE for the last 3 1/2 years. He switched to DE from OLB because he is not good or comfortable in pass defense. He is a DE, he is the same type of player as James Hall.


Well, every 3-4 Scout out there disagrees with you. Would you be calling the writer of this article a liar for not doing his research and for trusting his sources?

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...format=&page=1

BigRob
04-13-2007, 09:28 AM
Anthony Spencer(Combine)

Height: 6027
Weight: 261
40 Yrd Dash: 4.70
20 Yrd Dash: 2.74
10 Yrd Dash: 1.64
Wonderlic:
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 30
Vertical Jump: 32 1/2
Broad Jump: 9'4"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.43
3-Cone Drill: 7.14

Spencer (Pro Day

Height: 6027
Weight: 261
40 Yrd Dash: 4.69
20 Yrd Dash: 2.76
10 Yrd Dash: 1.56

LaMarr Woodley (Pro Day)

Height: 6014
Weight: 266
40 Yrd Dash: 4.74
20 Yrd Dash: 2.72
10 Yrd Dash: 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 29
Vertical Jump: 38 1/2
Broad Jump: 9'9"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.42
3-Cone Drill:


Woodley Reminds me of a Slower/weaker dwight freeney, whereas Spencer reminds me of a more powerful/faster Phillips.

We talked to Spencer at his pro-day and Combine. We also did the same with Jamaal Anderson.

I'm still thinking we might Take Beason....

But If Anderson fell, we wouldn't take him because we haven't invited him? Perhaps we're not tipping our hand?

And one of the reasons Michigan didn't run a 3-4, is because Woodley COULDN"T cover.

He's too slow and lacks the hips.

They had perfect lineup for 3-4 Defense.

Woodley, Harris, Burgess, Crable
DE, NT, Branch

But Woodley wasn't good in coverage, hence the 4-3.


First of all, Anderson is widely recognized as being a higher value than Spencer. Taking Anderson at 15 would generate alot more applause than Spencer at 15. That being said, the Steelers have drafted one of the players in the first two rounds they have interviewed nearly every year. Woodley, Carriker and players of that nature are coming in for an interview. Guess, who's not: Spencer.

That could change over the next couple weeks, but I doubt it. Every expert and scout agrees that Spencer is a 4-3 DE and is not fluid enough in the hips, the same argument you are making against Woodley.

I highly doubt Spencer will be available in the second round nor Woodley available in the second round. Too many teams need a DE and your going to tell me Tamba Hali goes in the first round last year and Woodley does not?

ironman4579
04-13-2007, 09:45 AM
I'd just like to point out that I'm not the only one that actually remembers Woodley playing as a stand up 3-4 outside backer in '04, and a stand up rush backer/hand down DE in the hybrid 3-4/4-3 Michigan ran in '05. Patriots/Lions remembers that too.

Mr. Stiller
04-13-2007, 10:29 AM
First of all, Anderson is widely recognized as being a higher value than Spencer. Taking Anderson at 15 would generate alot more applause than Spencer at 15. That being said, the Steelers have drafted one of the players in the first two rounds they have interviewed nearly every year. Woodley, Carriker and players of that nature are coming in for an interview. Guess, who's not: Spencer.

We still have 10 interviews.. pus we interviewed him twice.. did I say Spencer at #15?

Positives: Has a developing frame with good upper body muscle tone, tight waist and hips, good bubble, thick arms and room to add at least another 10 pounds of bulk with no loss in quickness...Has outstanding straight-line quickness, moving with an explosive burst coming off the edge...Has the quick change of direction agility to work down the line and his speed and range dropping back in pass coverage could see him develop into a 3-4 outside linebacker (best when having a free lane to pressure the pocket rather than bull rushing inside as a down lineman)...Really improved his ball recognition skills in 2006 and is no longer fooled by misdirection...With his better recognition skills, he vastly improved his backside pursuit skills, evident by the 21 third-down stops and five fourth-down tackles he executed in 2006...Has the upper body strength to consistently get leverage coming off the snap...Gets instant penetration as a pass rusher, showing proper hand technique, combined with an array of rip-and-swim moves to explosively close on the quarterback... Shows the hand delivery and punch-out ability coming off the ball, guarding his legs vs. the chop block while maintaining angle to close on the ball...Has his best production when he beats the offensive tackle with his quickness and has the lateral range to slip in-line...Contributes on the move and has the speed needed to chase long distances and make plays along the perimeter...Relentless in his straight-ahead charge to the ball...Has that rare speed to catch plays from behind...Locks out well, delivering a powerful hand swipe to get blockers off-balance...Has improved his anchor vs. the double team (still a work in progress)...His improved hand placement in 2006 saw him no longer struggle vs. face-up blockers...Has the lateral agility to flatten down the line of scrimmage and get outside...Has the athletic agility to fit in space, using his long arms to wrap and secure...Has the functional strength to get a push on the bull rush...Shows the speed and body control to get up field and shows a good feel to work back to the ball...Will play through pain, evident by his 15-tackle performance vs. Notre Dame in 2006 despite playing with a hyper-extended knee.

Negatives: Plays with good functional strength, but relies on his speed too much...Lacks the size to gain leverage vs. double teams...When he fails to use his hands to fend off blocks, he gets covered up by offensive tackles defending the run, as he generally will lose containment...Needs to add more lower body strength, as he lacks the leg drive to split or play off the combo blocks...Sometimes gets a little reckless in his pursuit and this results in him getting taken out of the play...When he fails to keep his pads down, he tends to lead with his shoulder before making the hit, rather than extending and securing with his arms...Lacks the ideal size to run over offensive tackles and will get engulfed and struggle to disengage when the opponent gets into his chest...Has good backpedal skills, but is a bit stiff in his hips trying to turn...Lack of size could see him as a better fit for a 3-4 alignment as a linebacker (has the speed to make plays in front of him)...Will play through pain, but missed action in several games with nagging leg cramps in 2006.

Compares To: SHAUN PHILLIPS-San Diego...Both players were developed in the Joe Tiller system at Purdue to attack the quarterback with quickness. Both lack the ideal size you look for in a defensive end, but Phillips proved that he was capable of competing in a stand-up position. Spencer was a better prospect than Phillips coming out of college. If used in a similar system, Spencer will have just as much success in the pro ranks that Phillips has shown.

Positives: Has a shorter than ideal frame, but shows good upper body thickness, wide hips, good bubble, muscular arms and very good straight-line speed...Aggressive and physical edge rusher who plays with a high motor and a very competitive nature...Will go until the whistle and demonstrates the upper body power to stack, shed and press off coverage...Hard worker in practices and the training room and takes well to hard coaching (will do whatever the staff asks, evident by playing a different position in each of his years at Michigan)...Excellent edge rusher who constantly beats the blocker with his initial quickness...Has the initial step off the line and times his jumps well shooting the inside gaps...Does a good job of making adjustments on the move and has the lateral range to get to the perimeter and force the outside running game back inside...Plays more on instincts than ball recognition (needs to settle down at one position), but shows ease of movement flowing to the ball and a sudden burst to fill the rush lanes...When he stays low in his pads, he is capable of driving through blocks and also demonstrates functional ability to anchor at the point of attack...Showed improvement in 2006 in using his hands to stack and control...Was also more effective using his hands to shed...Very aggressive taking on blockers and even if he loses the battle, he will not throttle down, quit or get frustrated...Uses his hands well to defeat blocks and keep the opponent from attacking his feet...Pursues the play with vigor and has fluid lateral agility in pursuit, showing good urgency throughout the chase...Best when given a free lane to close in and flush the quarterback out of the pocket...Applies constant pressure coming off the snap and has the change of direction skills to pursue from the backside...Explosive closing on the ball in the short area and has the valid foot speed to make plays outside the box...Hits, wraps and drives through the ball carrier with good technique, doing a good job of adjusting in space and fit to finish...Generates good pop on contact and hits low, with good violence...Comes off the edge with a very effective hand slap, rocking the blockers back on their heels...Has multiple rush moves and the range to chase down the play...Can play linebacker, but is much more instinctive when he lines up with his hand down as a defensive end...Shows the leg drive to change direction in an instant...Displays impressive hip snap turning and takes good angles while keeping his hands active to defeat the block...Gets nice inside position with his hands shooting the gaps (lacks bulk to split double teams, though)....His ability to explode off the edge is due to his flexibility and counter moves in attempts to come under the tackle...Lacks size, but shows strength on his bull rush (hard to take him off his feet once he gets moving).

Negatives: Can be neutralized by double-team blocking, as he struggles to hold his ground vs. the larger blockers...Because of all the position moves, he has not had time to develop solid read/react ability and plays more on instincts...Needs more than several reps to retain plays and might struggle in a complicated system (best when freelancing)... Might have the size and experience at linebacker, but even when playing that position, he was pulled in obvious passing situations (struggles getting good depth in his drops)...Has a great motor, but will sometimes get too out of control and over-pursue...Even with his strength, he can get washed out of the play when trying to work through the trash...Lacks ideal height and bulk to play in a base defense, but has the speed to cause problems playing wide off the edge...Has good lateral range, but looks sluggish opening his hips through transition.

Compares To: DARRYL TAPP-Seattle...Some might compare him to the Colts' Dwight Freeney or Robert Mathis, but Woodley is not as fast as Freeney and has better tackling form and strength than Mathis. Like Seattle found out with Tapp later in the 2006 season, if you keep Woodley on the edge, his burst and hand strength are going to enable him to wreak havoc in the backfield. While he has experience as a linebacker, he lacks the loose hips, pass drop agility and read/react skills to play there. In a Cover-2 system out on a nine-tech rather than facing a seven-technique blocker, he could be a terror.


it's more than just the hips for woodley..



That could change over the next couple weeks, but I doubt it. Every expert and scout agrees that Spencer is a 4-3 DE and is not fluid enough in the hips, the same argument you are making against Woodley.

Every Scout? They have him going to Baltimore at #29 in some mocks and expect him to be the next Adalius Thomas.

I highly doubt Spencer will be available in the second round nor Woodley available in the second round. Too many teams need a DE and your going to tell me Tamba Hali goes in the first round last year and Woodley does not?

Depth at DE is good this year... Hali was rated a 2nd rounder but the Chiefs wanted him. Spencer could fall if Detroit/Zona don't take him in round 2 (I Think Baltimore will be too busy trying to fix their oline.) Woodley was being ranked as a 4th rounder until his pro day. Unless someone like the Jets think it's their only chance and get him rd 1, he'll be around in rd 2.

Mr. Stiller
04-13-2007, 10:32 AM
Well, every 3-4 Scout out there disagrees with you. Would you be calling the writer of this article a liar for not doing his research and for trusting his sources?

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...format=&page=1

Page didn't work..

Sure some team may hope for a steal in Woodley considered he was a first rounder. But I don't see it, Wolverine fans don't see it. I don't think most NFL teams see it.

You act like Everyone in the league is honest adn there's no smoke screens.

I'm sure not every 3-4 scout disagrees with me..

From Bob McGinn.

LaMarr Woodley, DE, Michigan: 6-1, 269. Played with great effort and was more than respectable in '06 meeting against the Badgers' Joe Thomas. "He's such an intense, high-motor guy," one scout said. "But I'm not crazy about him." That's because he's short. Compared by another scout to Detroit's James Hall, another former Wolverine. Some say he'll be able to play linebacker in a 3-4. "He plays with good leverage, he uses his arms and hands well, he's got strength and pop," a third scout said. "But he is only a pass rusher."

ironman4579
04-13-2007, 10:44 AM
Page didn't work..

Sure some team may hope for a steal in Woodley considered he was a first rounder. But I don't see it, Wolverine fans don't see it. I don't think most NFL teams see it.

You act like Everyone in the league is honest adn there's no smoke screens.

I'm sure not every 3-4 scout disagrees with me..

From Bob McGinn.

LaMarr Woodley, DE, Michigan: 6-1, 269. Played with great effort and was more than respectable in '06 meeting against the Badgers' Joe Thomas. "He's such an intense, high-motor guy," one scout said. "But I'm not crazy about him." That's because he's short. Compared by another scout to Detroit's James Hall, another former Wolverine. Some say he'll be able to play linebacker in a 3-4. "He plays with good leverage, he uses his arms and hands well, he's got strength and pop," a third scout said. "But he is only a pass rusher."

I kind of thought that was the whole point, that he would be drafted as a rush linebacker. If you're planning on him doing alot of covering, then I'd say no question there are better options. And I'll say again that he played as a stand up backer for at the very least, most of '04.

Mr. Stiller
04-13-2007, 10:55 AM
I kind of thought that was the whole point, that he would be drafted as a rush linebacker. If you're planning on him doing alot of covering, then I'd say no question there are better options. And I'll say again that he played as a stand up backer for at the very least, most of '04.

Standup DE and true 3-4 OLB are different (Although I need not say that to you).

Joey Porter was probably one of the best coverage OLB's in the league, which lead to his poor sack #'s as he wasn't allowed to rush so much because we were getting beat so much.

When your other OLB runs a 4.8-4.9.. I'd like a Solid coverage OLB.

ironman4579
04-13-2007, 11:28 AM
Standup DE and true 3-4 OLB are different (Although I need not say that to you).

Joey Porter was probably one of the best coverage OLB's in the league, which lead to his poor sack #'s as he wasn't allowed to rush so much because we were getting beat so much.

When your other OLB runs a 4.8-4.9.. I'd like a Solid coverage OLB.

Yea, no I see what you're saying. I certainly wouldn't recommend Woodley as a true 3-4 OLB, trying to drop back into coverage too often. As I said, if he was used in a Merriman like role, where all he really has to do is get after the quarterback(not saying that's all Merriman does, just for simplicity sake) I think he could be very effective. If he's asked to drop back into coverage an awful lot, I think he'd be more of a hinderance than a help. And despite my arguments, I still feel and agree that he'd be better as a DE in a 4-3 anyway.

Mr. Stiller
04-13-2007, 07:53 PM
Yea, no I see what you're saying. I certainly wouldn't recommend Woodley as a true 3-4 OLB, trying to drop back into coverage too often. As I said, if he was used in a Merriman like role, where all he really has to do is get after the quarterback(not saying that's all Merriman does, just for simplicity sake) I think he could be very effective. If he's asked to drop back into coverage an awful lot, I think he'd be more of a hinderance than a help. And despite my arguments, I still feel and agree that he'd be better as a DE in a 4-3 anyway.

I agree. I like your sig. I'm hoping Crable is a Steeler next year. He reminds me of a Joey Porter type ferocity.

ironman4579
04-14-2007, 01:33 PM
I agree. I like your sig. I'm hoping Crable is a Steeler next year. He reminds me of a Joey Porter type ferocity.

Thanks. Crable is easily my favorite player on the Michigan D this year. I really think he has a ton of potential.

Mr. Stiller
04-14-2007, 02:21 PM
Thanks. Crable is easily my favorite player on the Michigan D this year. I really think he has a ton of potential.

Same here i was hoping he'd jump..

but i think i found our Porter in Barnes.

BigRob
04-14-2007, 09:03 PM
Look, Lets just agree to disagree. I think Woodley would be just fine in the second round and on. I am not suggesting he is pick 15 material. Don't be surprised if the Patriots take him with their second first round pick.

The player I really like, in the 3rd is Bryan Robison from Texas. He has the size and speed to play in the 3-4 defense.

Mr. Stiller
04-15-2007, 01:07 AM
Look, Lets just agree to disagree. I think Woodley would be just fine in the second round and on. I am not suggesting he is pick 15 material. Don't be surprised if the Patriots take him with their second first round pick.

The player I really like, in the 3rd is Bryan Robison from Texas. He has the size and speed to play in the 3-4 defense.

I'll agree on Robison. As I see it though, We'll have to see from what i've been getting is that we're going to the 4-3 Immediately and could even move up for Jamaal Anderson. If thats the Case.. Harrison is a solid WLB, but we'll need a SLB (Antwan Barnes), and a MLB (Foote is a 2 down MLB, and Farrior is aging. I'm thinking DeOssie).

I think we'll still see 3-4 looks, but I think we're going to 4-3, which at this point I'm not against, seeing as it means Jamaal Anderson is our RDE, making Kiesel the LDE, and Smith/Hampton the DT's.

Got have mercy on any team that tries to run on us.

Mr. Stiller
04-16-2007, 09:11 PM
Sorry, but the Steelers aren't even sniffing around Spencer at this point.

Spencer Visited Monday April 16.