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View Full Version : Did Detroit Just Lose Out on Both Cornerbacks?


Matthew Jones
12-27-2010, 03:08 PM
As it stands right now the Lions have either the #9 or #10 pick in the draft. In front of them are Carolina, Denver, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Arizona, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston, and potentially Minnesota. In bold are the teams I could see targeting a cornerback with their first-round pick. Right now, I have Peterson going #2 overall to Denver and Amukamara going #7 overall to Dallas. In addition, Denver, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Arizona, Houston, and Minnesota are teams that could also look into drafting a pass rusher such as Da'Quan Bowers or Robert Quinn, which looks like it could be one of Detroit's fallback options.

Who could Detroit look at if both cornerbacks are off the board? What about if both pass rushers are off the board as well? If I had to guess the team would look to trade down,but if they were not able to orchestrate a trade, they could draft an offensive tackle of some sort such as Southern Cal's Tyron Smith or Colorado's Nate Solder, who both have the kind of physical tools that could cause a team to draft them in the top ten.

JPP90
12-27-2010, 03:18 PM
If they draft Tyron Smith that high they just picked the bust of the 2011 draft. Id love to see Tyron Smith at 6'5 280 blocking Julius Peppers and Clay Matthews off the edge. He's gonna have to get bigger, and not just in the biceps. Tony Mandarich 2.0

Lions actually have a nice CB prospect in Aaron Berry that they think highly of and will want a better look at next season...Aaron Berry an UDFA out of Pitt who made the team, started at nickelback week 1, picked off a pass vs the Bears but went on IR the same week. They could have something there.

GloryDaysRBack
12-27-2010, 03:23 PM
Dallas needs a safety more than a CB. Dallas might take prince at 7 if he's the BPA...right now i have Dallas taking Quinn.

As far as Det is concerned, they are probably going to win next week too. Pushing them even further back.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 03:26 PM
Kiper has Janoris Jenkins moving up his draft board as a third CB.

Scott, any thoughts on him?


I'd love to see a Lions trade down. I think it's actually plausible as a team moves up to grab a Quarterback near the 10 spot.

If we're stuck picking around 10 with both the top corners off the board, I'll be looking at Defensive Ends and Outside Linebackers. Would also be nice if an OT could move up through the combine.

Matthew Jones
12-27-2010, 03:32 PM
Kiper has Janoris Jenkins moving up his draft board as a third CB.

Scott, any thoughts on him?


I'd love to see a Lions trade down. I think it's actually plausible as a team moves up to grab a Quarterback near the 10 spot.

If we're stuck picking around 10 with both the top corners off the board, I'll be looking at Defensive Ends and Outside Linebackers. Would also be nice if an OT could move up through the combine.

I see Smith and Solder as the two most likely movers at the combine. Both should test extremely well and we all know teams fall in love with those prospects every year. As a sleeper pick, what about Akeem Ayers? There have been a few linebackers chosen earlier than expected in recent drafts and Ayers seems like he'd be a good fit in Detroit's defense.

P-L
12-27-2010, 03:38 PM
Right now us Lions fans really don't care. We haven't won very many game over the past decade so we are enjoying every win we can get. If we win next week, we'll finish 6-10 which would be our second best record since 2000. It has been that bad for us these past 10 years.

scpanther22
12-27-2010, 03:39 PM
They could go after Richard Marshall in FA

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 03:48 PM
Yeah, the Lions will likely spend on one significant free agent this offseason the way they did with Burleson or Vanden Bosch last summer.

prock
12-27-2010, 03:56 PM
If they get the 10th pick, they will likely miss out on their top 4 options. That would be quite unfortunate for them. Backus has been good this year, so they don't really need a LT. They would have to target a RT, an OLB, a CB, or a DE. But the value at those 4 positions might be pretty ******. Would they potentially take a value pick like Justin Blackmon to compliment CJ? That offense would be down right scary.

P-L
12-27-2010, 04:33 PM
I fail to see why the Lions would target an offensive tackle in the 1st round. Anyone who has watched the team this year knows that Jeff Backus is having a Pro Bowl caliber season at left tackle and Gosder Cherilus has been pretty solid at right tackle. Even our back-up right tackle Cory Hilliard has held his own against Clay Matthews and Cameron Wake when forced into the lineup due to Gosder's injury. I know Jeff Backus only has one year left on his contract and is already 34 years old. We are going to need a replacement for him eventually. I just can't imagine drafting a tackle with the intentions of him taking over in 2012 when you have the second worst secondary in football, major liabilities at both outside linebacker spots, and one of the worst starting right guards in the league. Martin Mayhew generally drafts best player available (as long as it is at least somewhat a need) and it is very doubtful that a tackle is going to be the best player available when we pick.

The Lions are going to be hard to predict until after the Senior Bowl and Combine. A corner like Brandon Harris, Janoris Jenkins, Jimmy Smith (less likely) could possibly raise their stock high enough to be drafted in the top 15. A linebacker like Akeem Ayers or Greg Jones could also shoot up draft boards with impressive workouts.

Scott Wright
12-27-2010, 04:33 PM
These are the situations I am always talking about.

Was it worth losing out on a premier player at your #1 position of need for one meaningless win?

P-L
12-27-2010, 04:45 PM
These are the situations I am always talking about.

Was it worth losing out on a premier player at your #1 position of need for one meaningless win?
Yes, yes it was. The Lions are 37-122 over the last 10 seasons. They were 2-31 in the 33 games prior to this seasons. I bet if you watched your team go through a 2-31 stretch (starting with a 19-game losing streak), you wouldn't think any win is meaningless.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 05:23 PM
Yeah, I wanted the win. After 10 years of picking top 10, I really don't give a damn anymore about draft positioning. I feel confident in Martin Mayhew's drafting ability and the same could not be said for the past decade or more.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 05:26 PM
I'd love to see it shake out something like:

Round 1 - Cornerback
Round 2 - Offensive guard
Round 3 - Outside linebacker

Hopefully there will be players of value on the board at those positions at the right time.

Scotty D
12-27-2010, 06:06 PM
Detroit could always move up if they wanted. They need draft picks but they have a better foundation now and it wouldn't cripple them to move up. I'd also be comfortable drafting Brandon Harris or Janoris Jenkins in the mid 1st.

Scott Wright
12-27-2010, 06:49 PM
Sorry P-L and Xiomera, I could not disagree more.

What's the difference between 3 wins and 4 wins?

Saints-Tigers
12-27-2010, 06:58 PM
Detroit has plenty of top level talent. Hitting on super prospects isn't what they need now, they have one of the best young QB prospects, the best receiver in the game already, and a guy that might be the best defensive player in football.

Adding another top notch defender isn't going to help nearly as much as drafting well in general and just adding quality all over the field. Of course they could have done both at once still... but you get what I mean.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 07:11 PM
Sorry P-L and Xiomera, I could not disagree more.

What's the difference between 3 wins and 4 wins?

You wouldn't understand unless your team had been through what the Lions have.

The difference is that at some point you start playing to win and not caring what draft position we have. If Mayhew isn't capable of finding us a good player at 10 instead of 5 then we're screwed either way.

goldenbear.cal
12-27-2010, 07:22 PM
I've always had Brandon Harris as a lock for the 3rd CB taken, is #9 too high of a selection for him? I like his potential more than Janoris Jenkins.

thebow305
12-27-2010, 07:28 PM
I kind of see both sides. It is unfortunate though that they will totally miss out on Peterson now. That guy could have been a stud for that franchise. He is a special special player.

terribletowel39
12-27-2010, 07:29 PM
I agree with the win column. Even as a Steelers fan I would want a W in the final game of the season over a loss and 1-4 higher draft spots. A win feels much better. And like Xio said, you might miss out on some great players but a good front office should still be able to find another great player with the pick you picked up from the 'meaningless' win.

keylime_5
12-27-2010, 07:33 PM
They should beat Minnesota at home too. It's definitely worth winning games, especially several in a row, for the sake of winning and developing as a team, getting a winning flavor in your mouth to end the season, than it is to lose just to have a high draft pick. Detroit had the #2 pick last year and are on track to go 6-10 this year and have been a tough win for any team all season long even with all the injuries. Winning means you're getting better, and I'd rather get better than just have a high draft pick every year I don't know about you.

Babylon
12-27-2010, 07:38 PM
If you miss out on a top corner i wouldnt reach for the next best. Beef up your D-line even more and average corners become good corners.

keylime_5
12-27-2010, 07:38 PM
I kind of see both sides. It is unfortunate though that they will totally miss out on Peterson now. That guy could have been a stud for that franchise. He is a special special player.

As a Browns fan, we won the last 4 games last year and missed out on a top 5 pick, but we still got Joe Haden who is a total stud (so far) at a position that was a huge need.



Now if it's a matter of tanking just one game to get the #1 pick I can see the debate there, but Detroit has been winning or nearly winning several games here at the end of the season. Just because you're not gonna make the playoffs doesn't mean you should tank all your games, that is stupid.

keylime_5
12-27-2010, 07:39 PM
If you miss out on a top corner i wouldnt reach for the next best. Beef up your D-line even more and average corners become good corners.

Or take BPA, what a novel idea. (:

yourfavestoner
12-27-2010, 07:57 PM
Or take BPA, what a novel idea. (:

Heresy on this website.

Rank 'em and pick 'em. There will be other good players besides Patrick Peterson. Get one of them.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 08:09 PM
The Lions are on the rise, and undoubtedly will be better next season. The difference possibly getting Peterson and either the 3rd CB or another very good player at a different position is not gonna result in much difference.

I will not be opposed to grabbing another top flight pass rushing DE to add to our rotation.

thebow305
12-27-2010, 08:15 PM
Heresy on this website.

Rank 'em and pick 'em. There will be other good players besides Patrick Peterson. Get one of them.

Yeah, but both Bowers and Luck will be gone. Those are the only players arguably better than PP in this draft IMO. I think Detroit just just to pray that either Prince or Quinn fall to them. I think both would be tremendous fits for them at #10.

keylime_5
12-27-2010, 08:18 PM
Yeah, but both Bowers and Luck will be gone. Those are the only players arguably better than PP in this draft IMO. I think Detroit just just to pray that either Prince or Quinn fall to them. I think both would be tremendous fits for them at #10.

I think Prince is comparable to Peterson as a prospect even though he doesn't get as much press. Some people even like Prince more than PP they say. I think Luck, Fairley, Bowers, Quinn, Peterson, Amukamara, and AJ Green are all of similar value and are the top 7 guys this year, though I think Newton will be viewed in that group too by some personnel people because of his incredible upside.

LonghornsLegend
12-27-2010, 09:09 PM
Sorry P-L and Xiomera, I could not disagree more.

What's the difference between 3 wins and 4 wins?

Scott I'm sorry but your saying this from a draftnik point of view and not what actually learning how to win games does for that team inside the locker room. If draft position was really all that important why is it that the teams who draft well, that always pick after #25 can consistently draft pro bowlers? People act like if you don't get a top 10 pick you miss out on an elite type of player and I don't know how this thought process came about.



Also in regards to a CB for Detroit, I know Champ Bailey and I think Aaron Ross are hitting FA right? Landing 1 of those guys would be a great stop gap if they get a pass rusher to help out Suh and get after the QB.

PACKmanN
12-27-2010, 09:19 PM
the should go front 7, or maybe even o-line(Cannon) with the draft pick. A lot of teams are finding late round, or UDFA CBs and making them into very good starters, so I have no doubt that they can do the same since they've done it in the past for Tenn.

detroit4life
12-27-2010, 09:19 PM
i have always been an advocate of losing when its meaningless but this year is different, I am thrilled to win as ending the game with a win streak like we have, ending our road losing streak and our division losing streak means a lot mentally for fans and players. It proves to the league that this team has promise and will help in FA and other areas than the draft. Yes we may loose on PP but his availability would have been in question regardless. What kind of message would it send to our cornerstones like CJ, SUH, Best etc if we told them to lose?

Now with that said i might have to hope favre plays week 17 and beats us because while 9 or 10 is not too bad, it would be a shame to end up drafting at 14 or 15.

The way i see it is we will hope Prince falls to us, I believe there will end up being 2-3 QB's taken top ten (Luck, Newton, (Mallet maybe), a DT (Fairley), 3 DE's (Quinn, Bowers, Dareous), 2 CBs (PP, Prince), and atleast 1 WR (green or jones)

with that said i'd be more than happy with Bowers, PP, Prince, or Quinn. If they are all gone i'd expect us to look at trading down or looking at LB like ayers or reaching for the 3rd best CB.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 09:23 PM
Agreed detroit4life. In past years, the end of our abysmal losing has never been in sight. This year, we actually have a foundation to the roster and a lot of quality, quality players. I want wins.

NGSeiler
12-27-2010, 09:24 PM
These are the situations I am always talking about.

Was it worth losing out on a premier player at your #1 position of need for one meaningless win?

Maybe it's unfortunate from a draft perspective, but what's the alternative? Throwing games to retain a high position in the selection order?

WMD
12-27-2010, 09:58 PM
We've had high draft picks regularly. Wins have been really, really hard to come by.

We could always trade up.. maybe with Arizona! Our Round 1, Shaun Hill, and Cliff Avril for their #5ish pick andddddd a 5th or something. LETS DO IT!

Notredameleo
12-27-2010, 10:13 PM
I would rather settle for the number three corner or a stud LBer and end the season on a four game win streak than finish the season at 2-14 again! Its something only Lions fans can understand.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 10:19 PM
We've had high draft picks regularly. Wins have been really, really hard to come by.

We could always trade up.. maybe with Arizona! Our Round 1, Shaun Hill, and Cliff Avril for their #5ish pick andddddd a 5th or something. LETS DO IT!

What the hell are you thinking, WMD? That trade is dumb.

WMD
12-27-2010, 10:27 PM
What the hell are you thinking, WMD? That trade is dumb.
Everything I do is genius.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 10:31 PM
Avril does not get traded.

WMD
12-27-2010, 10:37 PM
Avril does not get traded.

I like him, but I would trade him.

Xiomera
12-27-2010, 10:44 PM
I like him, but I would trade him.

Not for a bit of draft positioning. We'd have to take a DE top 10 and then it would defeat the purpose of dealing him.

Scotty D
12-27-2010, 10:50 PM
Not sure if you can trade him, his contract is up. If he is a RFA he can sign his tender and then be traded.

You have 3 good DEs in Avril, Lawrence Jackson, and Turk McBride opposite of KVB ( who will be fine and his career is not over). If Avril's demands are too high I'd be fine with trading him and plugging in Jackson.

WiSeIVIaN
12-27-2010, 10:59 PM
These are the situations I am always talking about.

Was it worth losing out on a premier player at your #1 position of need for one meaningless win?

Absolutely. The whole "you should lose NFL games for a better draft pick" perspective is one that is not held by a SINGLE player, coach, or GM in the NFL. It is solely held be draft-guru's like yourself who look at the surface of a team rather than the substance of it.

1. This isn't the NBA. Pick 1 isn't Lebron James and pick 10 a career bench player. In the NFL, the difference between talent at pick 5 and pick 10 simply is not that large, and it is significantly difficult to evaluate both talent and potential so you cannot safely say that a 1st round talent like Mike Williams is better than a 2nd round talent like Anquan Boldin.

2. Who defines a team's success next season? Out of that 53 man roster, maybe 40 guys will be back on the team. Are you telling me that picking 5 spots earlier in the 1st/2nd round is more important than the confidence and respect of the majority of your team?

Benching better players for younger players across the board WILL LOSE your team's respect. All week the coaches must prepare the players to go to battle and win as a team. If you aren't trying to win and you pull players for young'ins, how can coaches look their players in the eye? Hell, how can a head coach look their OC/DC in the eye who's supposed to put in 15 hour days all week.

The simple fact is, regardless of what draft hype guru's believe, it is NOT THAT IMPORTANT if you pick a few spots earlier or later as long as your staff evaluates talent well. And moreso, any situation where you intentionally put your team in a spot to lose games puts you in a spot to lose those 80% of players who will be back.


This "DET played themselves out of getting a top2 CB, how did the win help" stuff is completely ********. Winning games, breaking imbarrising records, and changing the culter of a losing franchise is 1,000x more important than picking slightly higher.

WMD
12-27-2010, 11:02 PM
I agree with Wise Vivian.

bigbuc
12-28-2010, 01:01 AM
Sorry P-L and Xiomera, I could not disagree more.

What's the difference between 3 wins and 4 wins?


A lot. Also how could you ask your players not to win a game? Everything players put into each season. Would you hire a coach that loses a game on purpose? I think you play to win the game and if you miss out on that young player you find a different one to draft. Also why try and lose games on a crap shoot? How many can't miss prospects have ended as misses.

roscoesdad27
12-28-2010, 01:02 AM
My detriot big board with tiers

1) P. Peterson
2) D. Bowers

3) R. Quinn
4) P. Amukamara

5) A. Ayers

If the top 4 are gone by pick 10 it would be a reach on ayers. I think prince will fall a bit however and could very well be there at pick 10.

Wrathman
12-28-2010, 01:36 AM
Considering Calvin Johnson is already making noise about signing his next contract with a team that wins, I'd say this late season surge has been very important to the team.

yourfavestoner
12-28-2010, 10:37 AM
Absolutely. The whole "you should lose NFL games for a better draft pick" perspective is one that is not held by a SINGLE player, coach, or GM in the NFL. It is solely held be draft-guru's like yourself who look at the surface of a team rather than the substance of it.

1. This isn't the NBA. Pick 1 isn't Lebron James and pick 10 a career bench player. In the NFL, the difference between talent at pick 5 and pick 10 simply is not that large, and it is significantly difficult to evaluate both talent and potential so you cannot safely say that a 1st round talent like Mike Williams is better than a 2nd round talent like Anquan Boldin.

2. Who defines a team's success next season? Out of that 53 man roster, maybe 40 guys will be back on the team. Are you telling me that picking 5 spots earlier in the 1st/2nd round is more important than the confidence and respect of the majority of your team?

Benching better players for younger players across the board WILL LOSE your team's respect. All week the coaches must prepare the players to go to battle and win as a team. If you aren't trying to win and you pull players for young'ins, how can coaches look their players in the eye? Hell, how can a head coach look their OC/DC in the eye who's supposed to put in 15 hour days all week.

The simple fact is, regardless of what draft hype guru's believe, it is NOT THAT IMPORTANT if you pick a few spots earlier or later as long as your staff evaluates talent well. And moreso, any situation where you intentionally put your team in a spot to lose games puts you in a spot to lose those 80% of players who will be back.


This "DET played themselves out of getting a top2 CB, how did the win help" stuff is completely ********. Winning games, breaking imbarrising records, and changing the culter of a losing franchise is 1,000x more important than picking slightly higher.

Finally, a new poster with sense.

lowlife
12-28-2010, 11:10 AM
Sorry P-L and Xiomera, I could not disagree more.

What's the difference between 3 wins and 4 wins?

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4zLlIdZikDk/0.jpg

If a team ever was found to intentionally lose games, they should be eternally aborted from the league.

How can you tell a team of veterans to lose games and possibly their jobs for the sake of some 20 something year old with no assurance they'll even be a good player and retain your ******* integrity?

Look what Detroit has done with a decade of Top 10 picks (I know, I know. Matty Milly) and how far they've come. You draft well where ever you pick, position should never be an excuse.

drowe
12-28-2010, 12:26 PM
Sorry P-L and Xiomera, I could not disagree more.

What's the difference between 3 wins and 4 wins?

See, I see this situation as a perfect example of why ya just gotta win those late season games.

This is a struggling franchise in a struggling city. They've been losing for a decade and the fans are starting to revolt. Close out the season on a 4 game winning streak and good things will happen. This momentum carries over into the off season...and the the next regular season. Just ask...well...Detroit. Remember in 2007 when they started 6-2 and then nosedived? And, remember what their record was in 2008?

Now, let's look at Calvin Johnson. The most talented player on their team. Hell, he'd be the most talented player on most teams. And, he's on record as saying he doesn't want to stay in Detroit if they keep losing. Wins and Losses happen Sept - December, but teams are built from March - July. Don't ya think ending a season with some reason for optimism would at least do enough to NOT disgust CJ to the point of wanting out ASAP? The mere possibility of keeping an elite talent by winning outweighs gaining a couple draft slots by losing.

Speaking of CJ, this is a team that has 3 top 2 picks on it's team from the last 4 drafts. That crap gets expensive. Maybe we'll see a rookie cap soon, but maybe we won't. And sooner or later, they'll miss on one of those picks. and the financial implications of that can set a team back a couple years. Especially when they already have a disproportionate sum tied into rookie contracts.

Furthermore, and this is obvious, the draft is far from a sure thing. Busts happen in the top 5 every year.
In 2003, The Texans missed out on Charles Rogers...so, they picked Andre Johnson
In 2005, Alex Smith was drafted ahead of Aaron Rodgers
Also in 2005, the poor Falcons missed out on Braylon Edwards,Troy Williamson, Mike Williams and Matt Jones, so they had to settle with Roddy White.
2006, the Broncos took Jay...ok. bad example.
In 2007, the top 10 contained JaMarcus Russell, Gaines Adams (yeah, I know, but he sucked before he died), Jamaal Anderson, Levi Brown, Ted Ginn and Amobi Okoye....but the next 10 contained Patrick Willis, Darrelle Revis, Lawrence Timmons and Leon Hall.

You can make the argument that these teams had the lower rated prospect higher on their draft board, or that the players failed or succeeded BECAUSE of the team that picked them. but, still, ya get the point.

You can argue any one of these points individually. But, the fact remains; Getting an early pick in the draft is closer to a crap shoot than it is to winning the lottery.

And, this doesn't even take into account the moral obligation to play to win at all costs...or the obligation to the fans and the rest of the league to put the best team on the field.

Xiomera
12-28-2010, 01:05 PM
Good to see most of you see the sense in the Lions winning at the end here.

To take it a step further, the Lions are better than their record indicates. They got jobbed in week 1 on that controversial Calvin Johnson no-catch and have been close to winning nearly every game (Thanksgiving aside, but even then we had a lead in the first half).

Most teams that begin 2-10 would phone it in. But this team must believe itself to be better than a 2-10 team in order to be winning like it has been lately. And that attitude is something that's been lacking in Detroit since the mid-90's or earlier. The team didn't give up and that will carry over to next season.

Nalej
12-28-2010, 02:19 PM
Furthermore, and this is obvious, the draft is far from a sure thing. Busts happen in the top 5 every year.
In 2003, The Texans missed out on Charles Rogers...so, they picked Andre Johnson
In 2005, Alex Smith was drafted ahead of Aaron Rodgers
Also in 2005, the poor Falcons missed out on Braylon Edwards,Troy Williamson, Mike Williams and Matt Jones, so they had to settle with Roddy White.
2006, the Broncos took Jay...ok. bad example.
In 2007, the top 10 contained JaMarcus Russell, Gaines Adams (yeah, I know, but he sucked before he died), Jamaal Anderson, Levi Brown, Ted Ginn and Amobi Okoye....but the next 10 contained Patrick Willis, Darrelle Revis, Lawrence Timmons and Leon Hall.



Great points
+rep

shylo3716
12-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Janoris Jenkins may be the answer to the problem.

LonghornsLegend
12-28-2010, 02:25 PM
Furthermore, and this is obvious, the draft is far from a sure thing. Busts happen in the top 5 every year.
In 2003, The Texans missed out on Charles Rogers...so, they picked Andre Johnson
In 2005, Alex Smith was drafted ahead of Aaron Rodgers
Also in 2005, the poor Falcons missed out on Braylon Edwards,Troy Williamson, Mike Williams and Matt Jones, so they had to settle with Roddy White.
2006, the Broncos took Jay...ok. bad example.
In 2007, the top 10 contained JaMarcus Russell, Gaines Adams (yeah, I know, but he sucked before he died), Jamaal Anderson, Levi Brown, Ted Ginn and Amobi Okoye....but the next 10 contained Patrick Willis, Darrelle Revis, Lawrence Timmons and Leon Hall.
.


Not many people seem to understand this, they think it's like the NBA. Like your team is doomed if you go from pick 4 to 9 and all the great players are gone. It's a silly and ridiculous argument and the only people who feel this way are draftniks who look too much into draft value and draft stock.


I mean, good thing Buffalo was bad enough to land an elite CB in McKelvin, they could have been stuck with crappy Brandon Flowers. We could find a million examples of this, winning games is more important to a team then throwing games.

I don't know why people think that real football is like Madden, where you can just get the 1st pick 3-4 years in a row then all of a sudden turn it on and expect the team to know how to win close games, win on the road, win tough division games without ever having gone through it before, or fighting through adversity in actual game situations. It doesn't work that way.

killxswitch
12-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Is the idea of drafting Fairley to play in rotation with Suh/Williams completely ridiculous? Or COMPLETELY AWESOME

TACKLE
12-28-2010, 02:41 PM
The Lions have been stockpiling Top 5 picks for years. They finally start making positive steps forward and people are criticizing them for it. You can't expect every team that has a turn-around to go from 2-3 wins to winning 8-9+ games all of a sudden. Sometimes a team and an organization will take small steps to where they want to be. There's nothing wrong with going from 3 wins to 6 wins then another step forward the next year. Growing team confidence will do a lot more for that team than Prince Amukamara can.

prock
12-28-2010, 02:45 PM
Absolutely. The whole "you should lose NFL games for a better draft pick" perspective is one that is not held by a SINGLE player, coach, or GM in the NFL. It is solely held be draft-guru's like yourself who look at the surface of a team rather than the substance of it.

1. This isn't the NBA. Pick 1 isn't Lebron James and pick 10 a career bench player. In the NFL, the difference between talent at pick 5 and pick 10 simply is not that large, and it is significantly difficult to evaluate both talent and potential so you cannot safely say that a 1st round talent like Mike Williams is better than a 2nd round talent like Anquan Boldin.

2. Who defines a team's success next season? Out of that 53 man roster, maybe 40 guys will be back on the team. Are you telling me that picking 5 spots earlier in the 1st/2nd round is more important than the confidence and respect of the majority of your team?

Benching better players for younger players across the board WILL LOSE your team's respect. All week the coaches must prepare the players to go to battle and win as a team. If you aren't trying to win and you pull players for young'ins, how can coaches look their players in the eye? Hell, how can a head coach look their OC/DC in the eye who's supposed to put in 15 hour days all week.

The simple fact is, regardless of what draft hype guru's believe, it is NOT THAT IMPORTANT if you pick a few spots earlier or later as long as your staff evaluates talent well. And moreso, any situation where you intentionally put your team in a spot to lose games puts you in a spot to lose those 80% of players who will be back.


This "DET played themselves out of getting a top2 CB, how did the win help" stuff is completely ********. Winning games, breaking imbarrising records, and changing the culter of a losing franchise is 1,000x more important than picking slightly higher.

I agree with this for the most part, but when you are out of contention, you have you start playing some young players to see what you got for next season. This doesn't mean bench all your starters. This means work young players in more often and play them in games where a win isn't likely. You HAVE to see what you have in some of your young players. But good post overall.

gpngc
12-28-2010, 03:04 PM
It is like the NBA if you need a QB. Then I can understand being upset with winning games down the stretch.

For this group - it's awesome. These wins, a healthy Stafford next year (maybe the real Best?) - who cares that they are picking 5 spots lower? Jenkins may be better than Prince anyway...

Woodie
12-28-2010, 09:22 PM
These are the situations I am always talking about.

Was it worth losing out on a premier player at your #1 position of need for one meaningless win?
This is why a lot of Panther fans were rooting for the team to lose once our season was essentially over. Most wanted Luck, and viewed rooting to lose in the short term like losing a battle, but winning the war if we could get Luck, which we knew would take the #1 pick.

In an odd way, it's like losing in this situation is really winning in the grand scheme of things.

Woodie
12-28-2010, 09:34 PM
The whole "you should lose NFL games for a better draft pick" perspective is one that is not held by a SINGLE player, coach, or GM in the NFL.
Nor should it be. I would be pissed if I knew that anyone associated with the team wanted to lose. Fans' relationship with the team is more a fantasy anyway, so, IMO, we have the luxury of hoping for whatever we think will be best for the team...even if that means losing a few meaningless games in order to secure the player we feel we most need.

However, the players, coaches, GM, scouts, whoever, need to have the mentality that it is never acceptable to lose, and must always play for the win. You want a winning culture and mindset throughout the organization, otherwise you will end up being relegated to becoming perennial losers.

SenorGato
12-28-2010, 09:46 PM
Janoris Jenkins may be the answer to the problem.

+1

He's good, plus I think they might even be able to get Prince if they're lucky.

drowe
01-23-2011, 09:16 AM
Gonna bump this thread to point out that it was actually suggested or implied that teams should lose in order to get andrew luck. how would THAT decision look now?

Xiomera
01-23-2011, 11:18 AM
Gonna bump this thread to point out that it was actually suggested or implied that teams should lose in order to get andrew luck. how would THAT decision look now?

Hahaha, it looks like they'd have spent an extra 20 million in guaranteed money on a player that isn't nearly deserving.