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DBNYDP
12-31-2010, 10:56 AM
Discussion on all the positions on a 3-4 line, and the prospects for those.
Also I'd love if people can give comparisons to players in the league, plus the round where they will probably be drafted in.

Personally, I'm curious about Jarvis Jenkins from Clemson. Big body, and good speed. I think this guy could be as good as Dareus, but I haven't even heard his name in 1st or 2nd. Any more info about him/possible round to draft him in?

ellsy82
12-31-2010, 07:02 PM
JJ Wat from Wisconsin. Ferocious defensive lineman with an interesting mix of physical attributes and pass-rush moves. My personal favorite. He'd dominate in any defensive scheme. I rate him higher than most, who have him lined up as a fringe first rounder.

Nick Fairley, Auburn. Currently the most dominating defensive lineman in the country. If he declares, which I'm sure he'll do, people have him pegged as a top 10-15 prospect.

Cameron Heyward, Ohio St. A guy that's been on the draft radar since his sophomore year, he's put together a very fine resume during his time in Ohio. Another probably top 10-15 talent.

Christian Ballard, Iowa. Not as 'flashy' as his linemate, Clayborn, but he'd be the perfect 3-4 DE. He'll do what's asked, he's a hard worker, and may even have the frame to add a few pounds on and move to the inside. Some have him inked as a late second rounder, which he could very well earn if he has a good combine.

Master Exploder
12-31-2010, 07:53 PM
Cameron Jordan.

That is all you need to know.

Babylon
12-31-2010, 07:57 PM
I was impressed with Jared Crick this year without Suh. The numbers were there and offenses tried to stay away from his side of the field. He plays with a little bit of an edge too, almost to the point of being a late hitter. Personally i think you might be better off with a Crick early in the second as opposed to someone more touted earlier in the first.

ellsy82
12-31-2010, 08:04 PM
I was impressed with Jared Crick this year without Suh. The numbers were there and offenses tried to stay away from his side of the field. He plays with a little bit of an edge too, almost to the point of being a late hitter. Personally i think you might be better off with a Crick early in the second as opposed to someone more touted earlier in the first.

The depth is certainly there for DEs in this draft. If I were gonna draft him in the early second, I might just wait for one of the other fringe first rounders to fall. JJ Watt, Cam Jordan, maybe even Adrian Clayborn when its all said and done.

Duffman57
12-31-2010, 08:58 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Crick, but if you look at it, with the 3-4 DE class that we have this year, just plain and simple, someone's gotta fall. All of these guys that can play the 3-4 DE spot are being touted as 1st rounders...

Marcel Dareus, Nick Fairley, DaQuan Bowers (He's not a perfect fit at the 3-4 DE spot, but he's more than capable of playing it, and he could really do some damage there.), Allen Bailey, Cam Jordan, Cam Heyward, JJ Watt, Jared Crick, Clayborn, Corey Luiget, Muhamad Wilkerson, Lawrence Guy, and Marvin Austin, with some of them being more like 2nd rounders (Guy, Wilkerson, Austin, Crick). Theres no chance all those guys go in the top 2 rounds IMO, so someone's gotta give.

energizerbunny
12-31-2010, 09:14 PM
Bowers would almost certainly play standing up in a 30 front.

I don't think Allen Bailey would be a great fit either, I think he needs to play SDE in a 40 front in order to be effective. When you watch him playing inside at tackle he isn't as effective, which gives me the impression that he wouldn't be as effective if you were to use him in a 30 front.

One guy i'am extremely high on, and I doubt he will declare this year is Michigan DT Mike Martin. He may not be the prototype, and even though he plays nose in Michigan's 30 front I believe he could succeed in the NFL as both a 34 DE and a 1 gapping Nose in the same front.

Martin has a fantastic first step, one of the best penetrators in the country as well as some of the strongest hands.

I think if Mike were to declare this year he'd be taken in the first 50 selections.

keylime_5
12-31-2010, 09:31 PM
Yes, Bowers would play in a 2 point stance in a 34 front, not with his hand down. Thing is he probably isn't best suited for that defense, but in a system like New England or Cleveland runs he is nice and big and strong and a helluva pass rusher so he could conceivably be a guy teams like that target (the Browns strongly considered Derrick Morgan last year to play OLB for and he is a similar type of DE).

Fairley would be a good 3 technique in a 4-3, or he could be a terrorizing DE in 1 gap 3 man front, but in a 2 gap 3 man front where his role is to occupy blockers and take on double teams his talent would be wasted. A 2 gap team would love to have his talent on their line, but he wouldn't be valued by a team like that like he would by a 4-3 team. If I were a 4-3 team I'd take Fairley with a top 5 pick without even thinking about it, but a 3-4 team would get better value taking a guy like that in the 10-15 range. If I'm a 2 gap 3-4 team then I look at Heyward, Jordan, and especially Watt as better fits, and much better values.

DBNYDP
01-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Well here is another question.
If you are a team that is going to use a 3-4. You have a top 5 pick. Do you go after Fairley? Is he going to be a huge player in that position? If I was a 4-3 team, I would be jumping up in joy, but I'm wondering if it is worth drafting a 3-4 DE in the top 5.
I mean obviously a guy like Haloti Ngata can have a huge impact on a defense but...is Fairley going to be that huge of an impact as a 3-4 DE.

Babylon
01-01-2011, 01:11 PM
Well here is another question.
If you are a team that is going to use a 3-4. You have a top 5 pick. Do you go after Fairley? Is he going to be a huge player in that position? If I was a 4-3 team, I would be jumping up in joy, but I'm wondering if it is worth drafting a 3-4 DE in the top 5.
I mean obviously a guy like Haloti Ngata can have a huge impact on a defense but...is Fairley going to be that huge of an impact as a 3-4 DE.

Dont see Failey in the Ngata class. If i'm loooking for a 3-4 DE i'm hoping for Watt, Jordan, Crick or Heywood at the top of the second round.

Jimmy
01-01-2011, 01:14 PM
Dareus has the best potential by far, I really think he could be disruptive at the end spot. The only concern is effort. He will be as good as he wants to be, he could boom or bust depending on if he wants that second contract.

DBNYDP
01-01-2011, 01:15 PM
I haven't seen Jordan play much but from what I've read he seems like a really incredible prospect.

Babylon
01-01-2011, 01:54 PM
I haven't seen Jordan play much but from what I've read he seems like a really incredible prospect.

Jordan looks solid but i'd be hesitant to take him over guys like Clayborn, Fairley or Dareus and probably even Watt.

Clarkw267
01-01-2011, 02:54 PM
I really think that Dareus is the most talented DL in the class outside of Quinn.

I like him in both the 3-4 and 4-3.

onejayhawk
01-01-2011, 03:38 PM
I live in Waco, TX, so Baylor is the local team. I like their senior DT Phil Taylor. Scott has already done a short write up on him, which is excellent as usual. http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/DT/Phil-Taylor.php

The thing that stands out to me is the hands. There are a lot of huge, powerful men at the NT position. What sets them apart are the extremities: hands and feet. Feet are the source of power to brace and push. Hands are what keep the OL from doing likewise. He will not time well, and his stamina at the next level is an issue, but Taylor's hands make him one to watch.

J

SenorGato
01-01-2011, 11:46 PM
A couple names not so hyped yet:

Lawrence Guy - Arizona St. DT has the size, frame, and length required for the position, and has good sack numbers if you're looking for them. Possibly a Chris Canty type, but maybe merely a Jason Hatcher type?

Muhammad Wilkerson - Golden's Temple class has some really sweet prospects and Wilkerson might be the best of them. 6-5 300 pounder from Union County NJ with good athleticism and good pro upside. I think he's a less polished/more upside version of Christian Ballard, who I've compared to a Ty Warren type DE. There's not alot of big name young 3-4 DEs (besides Ngata) since the Seymour/Warren/Castillo/Canty bunch in the mid-late 2000's. Maybe this group brings it back.

Colby Whitlock - Kelly Gregg 2.0.

Lawrence Marsh - This year's Vince Ogobaase? Really good prospect, but injuries have him like a ton of bricks. A whole ton.

Sione Fua - This years Terrell Troupp?

Jerrel Powe - A more highly drafted Jason Ferguson?

Cameron Heyward - The man.

ElectricEye
01-02-2011, 01:19 AM
Random rumblings on 3-4 DE's;

I didn't get to watch a whole ton of Cal this year, so I missed out on seeing Cameron Jordan's play as it happened, but going back and watching him I'm coming away very, very impressed. He uses his hands very well and is very sudden and quick. You regularly see him chase down guys coming across the play. Hard to match up with no matter where you put him and he could potentially play in a lot of schemes at different spots in the NFL. Seems to play his gaps well and the the right thing even when taking on multiple blockers. Gets into the backfield very easily with his quickness. He still needs to get bigger and stronger to play in some schemes, but it's not unrealistic to project.

Jared Crick is a guy I think who has really gone under the radar all year long because of the lack of attention to Nebraska's defensive line without Suh, but he's actually gotten better this year in spite of having to take on blocking schemes dictated to him. He has an ideal frame and very good size. He's got long arms as well, which is always a plus. Plays with good leverage for his height and shows the ability to effect the play even when taking on more than one blocker. He still needs to continue to get stronger because he does have a tendency to be pushed back at times. Not an overly athletic guy, but he has the type of skills that translate very well to being a quality 3-4 DE. One thing you have to like about him is he really finishes plays well. Very rarely see him misses a tackle and seems to smell blood when he gets into the backfield.

JJ Watt is a guy I'm very high on. He's playing 4-3 DE right now, but Wisconsin moves him around quite a bit and I've seen him come from the tackle position and still be effective. He's got ideal size to be a 3-4 DE and is very athletic and fluid for his size. Another guy with very long arms can disrupt passing lanes. One thing that bothers me about him is that he does not always play with proper leverage and plays a little tall at times, but with some coaching that really shouldn't be a major issue. The film on him is slightly deceptive because he's being asked to do things that don't translate well to being a 3-4 DE(Ie; penatrate), but he has the tools to do it and has flashed that ability multiple times. He's still got room to fill out some on his frame and is in very, very good shape for 292 pounds.

SenorGato
01-02-2011, 03:16 AM
^^ Crick and Cameron Heyward have become very underrated. Both are prototypical 3-4 DE prospects with all the intangible good stuff (college experience, long resumes, good character, leader, and all that).

Cameron Jordan is going to be in the Trevor Pryce/Shaun Ellis mold of XL 4-3 DE type 3-4 DE.

I don't buy Watt as much as most. Maybe I'll learn over the next 4 months.

thegreatone
01-02-2011, 09:22 AM
I really like Watt. With the proper coaching, he could become a beast in the NFL.

I'm a big fan of Crick as well. Hes a first round talent who will most likely go in the 2nd.

Grizzlegom
01-02-2011, 10:27 AM
Cameron Jordan and J.J. Watt are the class of 34DE this year in my book. Both players grade out better than Tyson Jackson, Jared Odrick, and Ziggy Hood (last three 34DEs taken in the first round) and I'd have no qualms taking either of them top 15. Cameron Heyward and Allen Bailey are probably my next two guys. I've got them as a fringe first rounders as 34DEs.

Could Fairley and Dareus play it? Sure but both are definitely better suited for 43 DT. Bowers and Clayborn could both probably play it too but again, better suited for 43DE.

Crick and Guy should probably stay in school after having mediocre seasons but would we 2nd/3rd round guys if they come out. Junior Temple DT Muhammad Wilkerson is a guy I really like that could probably make the move. Jarvis Jenkins and Pernell McPhee are mid-round guys that also are good fits at 34DE.

As for NTs, I like Phil Taylor the most of all the ones in this draft. Powe, Fua, and Kendrick Ellis are the mid-round guys and I love Harold Ayodele as a late round guy.

Babylon
01-02-2011, 10:50 AM
Cameron Jordan and J.J. Watt are the class of 34DE this year in my book. Both players grade out better than Tyson Jackson, Jared Odrick, and Ziggy Hood (last three 34DEs taken in the first round) and I'd have no qualms taking either of them top 15. Cameron Heyward and Allen Bailey are probably my next two guys. I've got them as a fringe first rounders as 34DEs.

Could Fairley and Dareus play it? Sure but both are definitely better suited for 43 DT. Bowers and Clayborn could both probably play it too but again, better suited for 43DE.

Crick and Guy should probably stay in school after having mediocre seasons but would we 2nd/3rd round guys if they come out. Junior Temple DT Muhammad Wilkerson is a guy I really like that could probably make the move. Jarvis Jenkins and Pernell McPhee are mid-round guys that also are good fits at 34DE.

As for NTs, I like Phil Taylor the most of all the ones in this draft. Powe, Fua, and Kendrick Ellis are the mid-round guys and I love Harold Ayodele as a late round guy.

I agree on most of this. I thought Crick and Watt were really good over the weekend in their bowl games. Both guys are very quick and strong and could probably add a little upper body weight. I see them both in the Aaron Smith (Steelers) mold and maybe even potentially better.

One guy who the light bulb has gone off for at the NT postition lately is Alameda Ta'amu of the Washinton Huskies, he's always had the size at about 6-3 and 350 with athletecism but down the stretch in his junior season he's decided to play like he belongs. He was killing double teams against Nebraska, doing his best B.J. Raji impression. Not an indication yet that he would come out but a name to keep an eye on.

DBNYDP
01-02-2011, 11:27 AM
Dareus is much better as a 3-4 end than as a DT.
Just saying.

SenorGato
01-02-2011, 12:22 PM
Cameron Jordan and J.J. Watt are the class of 34DE this year in my book. Both players grade out better than Tyson Jackson, Jared Odrick, and Ziggy Hood (last three 34DEs taken in the first round)

So do 5-6 other guys...those 3 prospects listed suck...or more accurately weren't really anything special as prospects.

Grizzlegom
01-02-2011, 01:14 PM
So do 5-6 other guys...those 3 prospects listed suck...or more accurately weren't really anything special as prospects.

5-6 other guys? I mean 34DE in this class is stacked yea but I really don't see any more than 4 max that would be rated higher than and even that's pushing it...

I can understand saying that for Ziggy if by 'nothing special' you mean that he wasn't really graded out as a first round pick but T-Jax and Odrick were both top 20 prospects on most boards so to say they were 'nothing special' I think is a little harsh...

SenorGato
01-02-2011, 11:45 PM
5-6 other guys? I mean 34DE in this class is stacked yea but I really don't see any more than 4 max that would be rated higher than and even that's pushing it...

I can understand saying that for Ziggy if by 'nothing special' you mean that he wasn't really graded out as a first round pick but T-Jax and Odrick were both top 20 prospects on most boards so to say they were 'nothing special' I think is a little harsh...

I like Odrick but generally I think Penn State DL prospects aren't all that great...I think Cameron Heyward is a better version of him...Jackson is/was a solid talent but Cameron Jordan is a more likeable version of him (doesn't have the motor knock)...Dareus is probably what they thought Hood was.

I'd take Dareus, Heyward, Crick, Wilkerson, Jordan, and Ballard over them as prospects and probably Fairley too...then there's Watt and Guy...Ballard could arguably be with those 2, but that'd still make 5.

This is an awesome group of potential 3-4 DL talent.

Grave Digger
01-06-2011, 12:49 PM
I just don't see what it is about JJ Watt that makes him such a special 34 End prospect? Having the size to be a 34 End doesn't mean you're a good candidate to play 34 End. As another poster pointed out, he gets too tall far too often and gets driven out of the play by bigger OT's. In a 34 he's going to be asked to occupy blockers and hold his ground at the line and honestly I don't see him being able to do that, even with good coaching.

Don't get me wrong though, I think he'll be a fantastic End in a 43. People say I'm crazy, but he reminds me of a slightly heavier Jared Allen (who is 6'6" and 270). His skill set is well suited for that role as he's fast off the ball and has surprising speed off the edge. Slim him down to 275/280 and you will have a heck of a DE. If Jared Allen were 295 lbs. would you feel comfortable putting him at End in a 34? I sure as heck wouldn't.

Babylon
01-06-2011, 01:10 PM
I just don't see what it is about JJ Watt that makes him such a special 34 End prospect? Having the size to be a 34 End doesn't mean you're a good candidate to play 34 End. As another poster pointed out, he gets too tall far too often and gets driven out of the play by bigger OT's. In a 34 he's going to be asked to occupy blockers and hold his ground at the line and honestly I don't see him being able to do that, even with good coaching.

Don't get me wrong though, I think he'll be a fantastic End in a 43. People say I'm crazy, but he reminds me of a slightly heavier Jared Allen (who is 6'6" and 270). His skill set is well suited for that role as he's fast off the ball and has surprising speed off the edge. Slim him down to 275/280 and you will have a heck of a DE. If Jared Allen were 295 lbs. would you feel comfortable putting him at End in a 34? I sure as heck wouldn't.

I havent seen the part where Watt has been driven out of the play by bigger offensive tackles. I think he has great hands and can control his man, long arms and some up the field ability, (ask Terrell Pryor). Heyward, Watt, Jordan and Crick to me are prototypical 3-4 DEs.

descendency
01-06-2011, 01:18 PM
He's a 40 front 34 DE.

Bowers would almost certainly play standing up in a 30 front.

Bowers is a 30 front 34 LDE who can't really rush the passer (15 sacks, yeah. He is a power rusher with very little in terms of finesse moves) but excels at stopping the run and holding blockers.

K Train
01-06-2011, 01:21 PM
5-6 other guys? I mean 34DE in this class is stacked yea but I really don't see any more than 4 max that would be rated higher than and even that's pushing it...

I can understand saying that for Ziggy if by 'nothing special' you mean that he wasn't really graded out as a first round pick but T-Jax and Odrick were both top 20 prospects on most boards so to say they were 'nothing special' I think is a little harsh...
evander hood is nothing special as a 34 end....hes a 310 pound finesse edge rusher, which doesnt make sense but he gets blown off the ball on the interior. he had his best two games as a pro against the panthers and the browns but then again its the panthers and the browns.

hes a pass rusher, not a good fit for our D...let alone aaron smiths role, maybe keisels role a little better. honestly when hes looked the best is either just going off tackle as a giant pass rusher or lined up at nose and right over the center
I like Odrick but generally I think Penn State DL prospects aren't all that great...I think Cameron Heyward is a better version of him...Jackson is/was a solid talent but Cameron Jordan is a more likeable version of him (doesn't have the motor knock)...Dareus is probably what they thought Hood was.

I'd take Dareus, Heyward, Crick, Wilkerson, Jordan, and Ballard over them as prospects and probably Fairley too...then there's Watt and Guy...Ballard could arguably be with those 2, but that'd still make 5.

This is an awesome group of potential 3-4 DL talent.

fairley to me is exactly like ratliff and ratliff should definitely be playing 43DT or (even better imo) 34END, 34NT isnt the place for him. i think dareus is a guy that looks the part of an end but despite being a mammoth of an man he looks like a DT but plays like a DE imo (hood syndrome) i like him in a 43.

I love me some heyward, bailey, clayborn, jordan, and crick as 34DEs and hope one of them end up as a possible steelers first round pick

Grave Digger
01-06-2011, 02:15 PM
I havent seen the part where Watt has been driven out of the play by bigger offensive tackles. I think he has great hands and can control his man, long arms and some up the field ability, (ask Terrell Pryor). Heyward, Watt, Jordan and Crick to me are prototypical 3-4 DEs.

Find a way to watch the Ohio St. game again. For every big play he made in that game sacking Pryor, I watched him get driven out of the play as many times. It's not that isn't strong enough or his arms aren't long enough, because he shows his strength and his length when he's getting up field, he doesn't set the hold his ground well and he doesn't get leverage. He gets driven out of the play by bigger Tackles, I saw it against TCU as well. He can get up field as well as any DE in the country and I think he has underrated speed, but those things aren't as important for a 34 End as being able to occupy blockers and hold the LOS.

Again I'm not dogging JJ Watt, I think he'll be an All Pro DE if he's in a 43. His skill set isn't suited for a 34 though. And actually to be perfectly honest, he could probably drop about 20 lbs. and be a pretty good OLB in a 34. He's a pass rusher, not a run stuffer despite what his measurements say.

If Crick comes out I think he would end up being the best 34 End out of any of them. He's a relentless player. As for Nick Fairley, he will struggle if he is put at End in a 34 in my opinion. He's Corey Williams 2.0 I think. He would be an incredible 3-technique in a 43.

TACKLE
01-06-2011, 02:31 PM
I agree with GraveDigger here. I too have kind of change my view on where he belongs. I used to see him as an Aaron Smith type but the more I see, the more I'm convinced that Watt is a much better fit in a 4-3 than he is in a 3-4. He just doesn't have the power to anchor against interior double teams.

Babylon
01-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Find a way to watch the Ohio St. game again. For every big play he made in that game sacking Pryor, I watched him get driven out of the play as many times. It's not that isn't strong enough or his arms aren't long enough, because he shows his strength and his length when he's getting up field, he doesn't set the hold his ground well and he doesn't get leverage. He gets driven out of the play by bigger Tackles, I saw it against TCU as well. He can get up field as well as any DE in the country and I think he has underrated speed, but those things aren't as important for a 34 End as being able to occupy blockers and hold the LOS.

Again I'm not dogging JJ Watt, I think he'll be an All Pro DE if he's in a 43. His skill set isn't suited for a 34 though. And actually to be perfectly honest, he could probably drop about 20 lbs. and be a pretty good OLB in a 34. He's a pass rusher, not a run stuffer despite what his measurements say.

If Crick comes out I think he would end up being the best 34 End out of any of them. He's a relentless player. As for Nick Fairley, he will struggle if he is put at End in a 34 in my opinion. He's Corey Williams 2.0 I think. He would be an incredible 3-technique in a 43.

I didnt see every play in the OSU game and will try to do that.

As for Crick he plays with a little bit of a mean streak like Fairley, he was trying to injure some of my Huskys, not very charitable if you ask me.