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jballa838
01-03-2011, 11:59 PM
This started as a hasty viewpoint to prove that every prospect has "flaws", but I really think I hit something here.

I took a running tally of every single pass play that Andrew Luck had. Results:

Passes within 10 yards (where it was caught, YAC in parenthesis).
7 yards
7 yards
2 yards
6 (15)
-5 {safety}
4 yard
6 yard
10 yard
1 yard (17)
5 yard (13)

two incomplete passes, on underthrown crossing routes (1 dropped INT, One dropped by Stanford WR)
10/12 for 45 yards (+45 yac)

11+ down the field:
This is split up into two categories
Wide Open:
25 yard TD to TE
42 yard TD to TE
39 yard TD to TE

so when WR's are wide open (no DB within 5 yards):
3/3 for 106 and 3 TD's

Contested throws:
14 yard PA rollout (good throw)
12 yard Rollout (low, almost skipped off the ground)
11 yard Rollout (forced by pressure)(good throw)
18 yard corner route (40 yac) easy throw and TD.
Underthrown comeback route 15 yards down field from pocket
Underthrown Go route in 1st Q
Throw into coverage, INT.

So contested throws: 4/7 55 yards (40 yac) 1 TD 1 INT

So if you take out his wide open, every D-I QB in the nation can make this throw passes, he is 14/19 for 100 yard (85 after catch) for 1 TD and 1 INT.

Sounds like a certain QB prospect who was also projected really high, but fell into the 20's without anyone knowing why, and now he is holding a clipboard somewhere. Brady Quinn, aka Captain Checkdown, had a bunch of games like this, where he had a high completion percentage making easy throws to (edit:) above average TE play and above average WR's, behind an above average offensive line.

Disclaimer: If this game is not the norm, (vaguely remember two years of this vs UW) I will accept that. I have a feeling though this is a pauper surrounded by Royalty, not a Prince.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 12:02 AM
If anyone broke down a Washington game this way they'd be blown away by the amount of drops.

jballa838
01-04-2011, 12:05 AM
If anyone broke down a Washington game this way they'd be blown away by the amount of drops.
and # of times he throws the ball away, something Luck is not willing to do, nor is he forced to do more than once a game.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 12:08 AM
and # of times he throws the ball away, something Luck is not willing to do, nor is he forced to do more than once a game.

How about the luxury of setting his feet and looking downfield. Have you ever seen Locker do that? Luck does that every play...he can read a book in that pocket.

brat316
01-04-2011, 12:20 AM
I know you wrote all this down. But when you took into account the yardage he threw it, did you count from scrimmage or from where he actually threw it?

Also that safety was a deflection, come on man.

The TD to Zack something, there was a DB right on his back.

jballa838
01-04-2011, 12:24 AM
I know you wrote all this down. But when you took into account the yardage he threw it, did you count from scrimmage or from where he actually threw it?

Also that safety was a deflection, come on man.
counted it from scrimmage. it's easier that way, though not as efficient. I have full notes of the pass play, and whether or not he was in the pocket, if that helps.

and on the TD: Safety was near other hash, so he had the entire hash area to lead him, and the DB was trailing by enough to where it was a judgment call on where to put it.

brat316
01-04-2011, 12:26 AM
counted it from scrimmage. it's easier that way, though not as efficient. I have full notes of the pass play, and whether or not he was in the pocket, if that helps.

I was thinking along the lines of arm strength, while your showing completion and passes. Carry on.

3rd TE TD there was a guy there also.

jballa838
01-04-2011, 12:30 AM
I was thinking along the lines of arm strength, while your showing completion and passes. Carry on.

3rd TE TD there was a guy there also.
in retrospect, i probably should have put where he threw from and where the WR was. The 3rd TD was in the contested throws category. The 3 uncontested ones where the 2 wide open ones and the 3rd where he split a cover two that was between the hashes and the numbers.

gpngc
01-04-2011, 12:43 AM
How about the luxury of setting his feet and looking downfield. Have you ever seen Locker do that? Luck does that every play...he can read a book in that pocket.

Except for all the times when he steps up in the pocket, feels the rush starting to get there, keeps his eyes downfield and hits a receiver.

Or the 3rd down play when he had a guy draped all over him and as he was running backwards he threw a perfectly accurate strike to his receiver.



The first part of this thread should say:

**Disclaimer** The purpose of this thread is to compare Andrew Luck to Brady Quinn.

Which is beyond ridiculous.

As is comparing Luck to Locker.

Any unbiased observer would tell you simply by watching the two bowl games that one is not even in the conversation with the other as an NFL prospect.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-04-2011, 12:56 AM
who would you compare him to if andrew luck went 5/16 and threw a bunch of passes similar to the one 3rd down sideline pass early in the game?

ViperVisor
01-04-2011, 12:56 AM
He was put in good spots, yes.

Execution was mostly on point in those plays. You get some credit for that. It just doesn't happen like in a videogame with a button press a monkey could do.

A couple real nice plays. A couple bad.

When a guy is limited in age and experience it is easier to expect the good to maintain or get better while the bad is improved upon.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-04-2011, 01:02 AM
I remember Jake Locker having a wide receiver wide open in the end zone in his bowl game that any quarterback in division I-A, I-AA and I'm guessing most of II and III could have thrown to

Locker decided to tuck the ball and run. He got stuffed at the 2 yard line

kalbears13
01-04-2011, 01:03 AM
One big difference when it comes to accuracy...

Luck>>>>>>>>>Quinn

If you watch their mechanics you can tell Luck is way more fluid while Quinn looks like a robot.

ElectricEye
01-04-2011, 01:15 AM
Stanford is the best coached team in the country, tonight showed that. The level of preparation on their part really shines through. Luck is absolutely part of that though and I really don't think you're trying to take away anything from him as much as play devils advocate to the people who think he walks on water(which we need more of, always). The Brady Quinn thing is interesting. I'll admit, I thought similar things about Brady Quinn that I currently think about Luck and that's a pretty good example of why he may fail. I don't think he will in the end, but it's interesting and a good reminder that there's no such thing as a perfect prospect even though we're always looking for one. His supporting cast is tremendous. Stanford is loaded everywhere on offense. Great runningbacks, great tight ends, and great receivers. Everyone on that team buys into Luck and Harbaugh...and why shouldn't they? Truly an NFL style approach at Stanford, particularly on offense. Easily my favorite program in the country right now and it's a shame it's going to be blown up. One thing to remember though is that great quarterbacks make everything look better than it actually is. Is the Stanford offensive line as good as it is without Luck's footwork and ability to feel the rush? Are those receivers just as good without being thrown open? How about the tight ends? It all works and clicks so well together(something we don't often see in college football where the plan is often to get the fastest guys on the field and go from there), but Harbaugh is right when he says Luck is the straw that stirs the drink.

I don't know how anyone can walk away from this game without being impressed. Showed everything you want in a quarterback. Great natural feel for the position, that's the biggest thing. He's seemingly able to anticipate everything on the field at once. Sees the field very well and understands the nuances of playing the position. Someone mentioned it in the college football forum, but when he moves around, it's not always to buy time. It's to get a better angle on throwing the ball. He has the best footwork in college football and he'll come in to the NFL right away as one of the most technically proficient quarterbacks in the league.

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 01:28 AM
I remember Jake Locker having a wide receiver wide open in the end zone in his bowl game that any quarterback in division I-A, I-AA and I'm guessing most of II and III could have thrown to

Locker decided to tuck the ball and run. He got stuffed at the 2 yard line

Hahaha, yeah I remember seeing that too and wondering what the hell he was thinking.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 01:43 AM
Hahaha, yeah I remember seeing that too and wondering what the hell he was thinking.

Yeah maybe if he talked to people on this forum and he'd be a lot smarter and make those plays. Maybe he could glean some wisdom from all our armchair QBs.

CameronCropper
01-04-2011, 01:46 AM
Some people are taking this Luck/Locker thing a little too personal.

Credit where credit is due however, at least someone's taken the time to makes notes on a prospect's game instead of just casting aspersions towards their performance because of the box score.

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 02:09 AM
Yeah maybe if he talked to people on this forum and he'd be a lot smarter and make those plays. Maybe he could glean some wisdom from all our armchair QBs.

Oh come off of it. Just because he plays D1 football and I don't means I can't make a statement pointing out one of his mistakes? You're in the wrong place if that bothers you.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 02:19 AM
Oh come off of it. Just because he plays D1 football and I don't means I can't make a statement pointing out one of his mistakes? You're in the wrong place if that bothers you.

Yeah, unless you're an expert at something...this has to be the one thing that we as a society feel the need to correct and insult people who do jobs we don't. We don't pretend we know more than doctors, lawyers, police officers, teachers or tell them how to do their jobs. At least any rational person shouldn't. Hell those are the people that we don't even recognize...they're grunts doing real jobs. Sports...not that's an area we're all experts in and we think we can watch a bowl game or maybe one or 2 others a season and pick out who can play in the NFL and who can't. Yeah Jake Lockers a bum because he can't throw for 300 yards on Nebraska with UFL receivers. Nobody even digs remotely deep on anything pertaining to QBs. They see a couple incompletions or an interception and oh, they suck! Shame on Jake Locker...he tucked and ran ran when we saw an open receiver...he's not draftable! Lol

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 02:22 AM
Yeah, unless you're an expert at something...this has to be the one thing that we as a society feel the need to correct and insult people who do jobs we don't. We don't pretend we know more than doctors, lawyers, police officers, teachers or tell them how to do their jobs. At least any rational person shouldn't. Hell those are the people that we don't even recognize...they're grunts doing real jobs. Sports...not that's an area we're all experts in and we think we can watch a bowl game or maybe one or 2 others a season and pick out who can play in the NFL and who can't. Yeah Jake Lockers a bum because he can't throw for 300 yards on Nebraska with UFL receivers. Nobody even digs remotely deep on anything pertaining to QBs. They see a couple incompletions or an interception and oh, they suck! Shame on Jake Locker...he tucked and ran ran when we saw an open receiver...he's not draftable! Lol

Yeah, because I said I was wondering what he was doing on one play that equals me saying he's undraftable? I guess it's cool to just make wild assumptions and put words into my mouth that I never said.

Nice rant though.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 02:32 AM
Yeah, because I said I was wondering what he was doing on one play that equals me saying he's undraftable? I guess it's cool to just make wild assumptions and put words into my mouth that I never said.

Nice rant though.

Don't over-value yourself...I never narrowed it down to just you. Just about the whole board thinks Tyrod Taylor and Sanmy Baugh's corpse should be drafted higher than Jake Locker.

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 02:34 AM
Don't over-value yourself...I never narrowed it down to just you. Just about the whole board thinks Tyrod Taylor and Sanmy Baugh's corpse should be drafted higher than Jake Locker.

a) Then don't quote me.
b) Prove the bolded part or you're just talking out of your ass at this point.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 02:42 AM
a) Then don't quote me.
b) Prove the bolded part or you're just talking out of your ass at this point.

I don't have to prove anything, read some threads. Just about all of them because they all turn into Jake Locker threads, and not in a positive way. You know damn well what I'm referring to and you feed into it too. Pretty much anyone not named jballa, jpp90 or Babylon. That about covers the 3 people that still thinks Jake Locker is an NFL QB. Oh, I forgot Scott Wright too cause I believe he's stepped in a few times and defended him.

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 02:46 AM
I don't have to prove anything, read some threads. Just about all of them because they all turn into Jake Locker threads, and not in a positive way. You know damn well what I'm referring to and you feed into it too. Pretty much anyone not named jballa, jpp90 or Babylon. That about covers the 3 people that still thinks Jake Locker is an NFL QB. Oh, I forgot Scott Wright too cause I believe he's stepped in a few times and defended him.

You're spouting baseless claims. You better start backing it up or you're basically trolling. And once again, stop speaking for me.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 02:53 AM
You're spouting baseless claims. You better start backing it up or you're basically trolling. And once again, stop speaking for me.

Like I said...pick any thread. There's Locker bashing. How bout the latest Orange Bowl/Tyrod threads where Tyrod Taylor is a better QB than Jake Locker? If there a high school on tonight and Little Jimmy Jackoff threw for 300 yards on Bishop Township, he'd have a thread on here comparing him to Jake Locker. Its gotten sad.

soybean
01-04-2011, 02:53 AM
Except for all the times when he steps up in the pocket, feels the rush starting to get there, keeps his eyes downfield and hits a receiver.

Or the 3rd down play when he had a guy draped all over him and as he was running backwards he threw a perfectly accurate strike to his receiver.



The first part of this thread should say:

**Disclaimer** The purpose of this thread is to compare Andrew Luck to Brady Quinn.

Which is beyond ridiculous.

As is comparing Luck to Locker.

Any unbiased observer would tell you simply by watching the two bowl games that one is not even in the conversation with the other as an NFL prospect.

you only say that cause of hindsight. And, if you supposedly knew this all along you were probably in the minority back when he was drafted.

Also, it's funny how Jballa precisely analyzed and wrote everything down and other posters can respond with something so vague like:

"well how about that one pass where he threw that perfect accurate strike to his receiver?!?!?"

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 02:57 AM
Like I said...pick any thread. There's Locker bashing. How bout the latest Orange Bowl/Tyrod threads where Tyrod Taylor is a better QB than Jake Locker? If there a high school on tonight and Little Jimmy Jackoff threw for 300 yards on Bishop Township, he'd have a thread on here comparing him to Jake Locker. Its gotten sad.

Like I said, if you can't handle one of your favorite prospects being criticized, this isn't the place for you. Especially when your only defenses are "look it up" or making sweeping generalizations.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 03:05 AM
Like I said, if you can't handle one of your favorite prospects being criticized, this isn't the place for you. Especially when your only defenses are "look it up" or making sweeping generalizations.

Lol generalizations...sounds a lot like a typical Locker post actually. Put me on ignore. K?

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 03:09 AM
Lol generalizations...sounds a lot like a typical Locker post actually. Put me on ignore. K?

Nah, I've let worse trolls than you get by without putting them on ignore. But you just keep playing the butt-hurt/martyr Locker fan role and let JBalla, Babylon and Scott do the heavy lifting for you.

JPP90
01-04-2011, 03:20 AM
Nah, I've let worse trolls than you get by without putting them on ignore. But you just keep playing the butt-hurt/martyr Locker fan role and let JBalla, Babylon and Scott do the heavy lifting for you.

If I ever feel a thread on here is worth a sore thumb, ill get right on that. You seem to add so much to the conversation too piggy-backing and demanding explanations. How bou you just read what's posted on this board and let some of it sink in? It should be called NFLDCAL--NFL Draft Countdown Against Locker.

CashmoneyDrew
01-04-2011, 03:27 AM
If I ever feel a thread on here is worth a sore thumb, ill get right on that. You seem to add so much to the conversation too piggy-backing and demanding explanations. How bou you just read what's posted on this board and let some of it sink in? It should be called NFLDCAL--NFL Draft Countdown Against Locker.

I've formed my own Jake Locker opinion and believe it or not it'd probably shock you that *gasp* I do think he is draftable.

NFLDCAL eh? Even though the owner of the site has him in his banner and his top senior QB? Yeah I guess he should change the site's name to that.

Also, why do you care so much if the board is against Locker? Seemed to me like most of the board last year thought Bradford was a bust but instead of crying about it some of us, you know, actually defended him with logical arguments. You should try it some time.

TitanHope
01-04-2011, 03:36 AM
A lot of posters like Locker.

It's just that some wheels are squeakier than others, which makes it seems like it's a bigger population, and the less squeaky wheels really don't want to hijack another thread with the same ole argument, along with it being much easier to hate on a prospect than it is to adore him, especially with a QB. Plus, mob mentality tends to set in.

But selective memories will happen anyway. You always remember the negative over the positive. That's why it seems like the entire forum is anti-Locker.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
01-04-2011, 03:52 AM
I wasn't that impressed by luck today. He looks like a late first rounder but projected #1 overall because of a weak qb class.

TACKLE
01-04-2011, 04:43 AM
I don't see him at all as an elite QB prospect. I just recently re-watched Luck against Oregon and Notre Dame and watched the USC game a couple weeks ago. I wanted to be a fan, but he reminds me so much of Brady Quinn its scary. Everything people said about Quinn they are now saying Luck. I will say that I really like Luck's feet and he is a superior athlete but the similarities in their games and in their style of play is uncanny.

You watch a game and he constantly gets praised for his decision making. People love how he goes through his progressions and if no one is open, he's always willing to hit the check down. The problem is he tends to check it far too often and doesn't seem to want to drive the ball down the field. He seems too content to dink and dunk down the field. If he has tendency to do this too much at the college level, its hard to believe that this aspect of his game will change when he moves to the NFL.

Also like Quinn, he's not a natural thrower of the football. I know it sounds like a some BS Mayockism but I find it holds true if you look closely. It doesn't look like natural and fluid when he tries to throw the ball down the field. Luck, like Quinn, does a nice job at using his whole body to throw the ball from his feet, to his hips, to his arm. But it seems he's so dependent on using his whole body to generate power on his passes to compensate for his lack of natural arm strength. It's not the worst thing as his mechanics always get praised (and deservingly so), but his inability to get zip on his passes will limit what he can do at the next level. It becomes more and more evident when he tries to throw the ball downfield.

So much value is given to playing in a "pro-style offense" because it gives us an opportunity to see them make throws that the quarterback would make in an NFL system. But not all pro-style feature certain routes because a lot QB's at the college level can't make them. Luck in Stanford's offense is no different. There are some NFL throws that he is not asked to make on a consistent basis. He needs to prove he can drive the ball in on an 18-yard dig route, the deep comeback and the seam routes against cover 1 or 3. Those are staples of the NFL route tree and he needs to prove he can drive the ball in on those routes. Although its not overly important, his deep ball has always been a weakness in his game. He needs to prove he can make these throws with accuracy and a lot of zip.

I will certainly reserve my final judgments on him until later on because there is a lot more work that need to be put in. There is plenty to like about Luck and I'm not trying to come off as a hater. It's just he's been made out to be this flawless QB prospect out of a pro-style system but whenever I watch him play, I feel like I've seen this show before with Brady Quinn. Using hindsight in my evaluation of Quinn, Luck is the superior prospect. His feet, athleticism and toughness will take allow him to be more successful than Quinn. Andrew Luck will be a better NFL QB than Brady Quinn. That's a fact. With that being said, I'm going to learn from the mistakes of the past. When a prospects looks like he checks out in every area, sometimes we can overlook the biggest things ie. the ability to throw the ball. Luck can be an NFL starter and a pretty good one, but I am by no means convinced that he is or will be a special player. I just can't help but feel that he'll always be limited in what he can do on the field.


A post of mine from a couple months ago...

JBalla's statistical breakdown directly coincides with what I said here. Every time I see Luck he seems tentative about throwing the ball down the field. I'm not going to give him the tag "Captain Checkdown" quite yet but I've yet to see him consistently challenge a defense with down field throws. Maybe the offense he's in calls for primarily short, underneath passes and the offense is limiting him; though I'm not so sure that's entirely the case. His unwillingness to to push the ball down the field may have to do with his own limitations. His arm is satisfactory. Not saying its too weak for an NFL starter but its far from a strength of his. It's not so much the deep ball as much as it is the the zip that's lacking on his passes. I don't know if his tendency to check it down a lot is a physical limitation, psychological limitation or just how he plays the position. Either way, its concerning. It feels like this has been a pattern throughout the season that people have ignored. You can call it over analyzing but it would be a pretty significant thing to overlook.

FUNBUNCHER
01-04-2011, 05:01 AM
I don't have to prove anything, read some threads. Just about all of them because they all turn into Jake Locker threads, and not in a positive way. You know damn well what I'm referring to and you feed into it too. Pretty much anyone not named jballa, jpp90 or Babylon. That about covers the 3 people that still thinks Jake Locker is an NFL QB. Oh, I forgot Scott Wright too cause I believe he's stepped in a few times and defended him.

You're whining, dude.
Jake Locker is going to be in the NFL next year, will likely be drafted in the top half of the first round, and will be expected to play 50x better than he showed at U Dub.

That doesn't change the fact that his performance this year pales in comparison to the top college QBs in the nation.

It's a bad idea to fall in love with ANY prospect on a draft forum, IMO. Unless you're related to Locker or a close personal friend, for your own sanity it's a good idea to maintain a healthy emotional distance from a player.

Trust, if Locker is drafted by the Skins, every Redskin fan on this board will be praying he turns into the bastard love-child of Joe Theismann and Mark Rypien.
I'm sure most fans of any pro team will feel the same way, disregarding their misgivings about him as a prospect.

In conclusion, EVERYONE agrees that if you were building a QB from the ground up, you'd want him to have every physical gift the God Lord blessed upon Locker.
But that still doesn't change the reality that Locker struggled to shine on an undermanned U Dub team.

I'll give you a pro comparison; Peyton Manning. With almost any other NFL QB on that Colts team, Indy would struggle to reach 8-8 every year. But something uncanny 'happens' to Indy on offense with Peyton under center; he can take unheralded marginal WR talent and make them look like pro bowlers.

U Dub finished 7-6 this season, including their huge bowl game upset, and I would agree that except for a handful of QBs, ( one named Luck btw), very few college QBs would have led the Huskies to more than six wins this year.
Even still, like any prospect, there are holes in his game.
Will he overcome them in the next 2-3 years???

No one knows, not a single one of us.
But this is still a draft forum, and that's what people do, try to project the success or failure of college football players in the NFL.

This is all supposed to be FUN. Take a step back from your boy and let him breathe.

This whole discussion IMO could flip once the allstar games are played.
After April, none of this will matter.

stephenson86
01-04-2011, 08:55 AM
JPP90 **** and stop speaking to Voodoo, he has made it clear he doesn't want to be associated with you. Locker went back for his senior year that is why he is being bashed so hard.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
01-04-2011, 09:10 AM
It is so easy to hate on someone and rip them apart. Anything that can be possibly wrong with them gets dug up. He just lead STANFORD to an orange bowl win. He played in a strong pac 10 conference instead of playing military academies like Brady Quinn

Sniper
01-04-2011, 09:10 AM
Brady Quinn, aka Captain Checkdown, had a bunch of games like this, where he had a high completion percentage making easy throws to elite TE's (Carlson/Pick one for stanford) and WR's (Tate/Owusu).

Not even going to bother responding to the first 3/4 of your post because it will turn into a Luck vs. Locker pissing match, but holy hell, care to check facts before you post this garbage?

1. Brady Quinn never played with Golden Tate.
2. If you take out last night, "elite" TE Colby Fleener had 261 receiving yards and four touchdowns all season. He was Stanford's leading receiver amongst tight ends. So I ask- who's this "elite TE" that Luck throws to all the time?
3. Chris Owusu is an elite WR? With his 396 receiving yards and three touchdowns? Is this serious?

scottyboy
01-04-2011, 09:16 AM
JPP has quickly become one of the worst trolls here...and in just about a month. Should I be impressed?

But come on, why must Locker be brought into every damn QB talk? It's annoying. I have ZERO dog in this race. My team doesn't need a QB, none of these guys come from my school, or a rival. ****, they both play on the opposite side of the country of me. So as someone who can't watch as much of them as I'd like, I read through these threads to learn up on them and see what other people have to say. From what I've seen out of Locker, I like. As a top pick? No. As perhaps a 2nd round guy who has tools to develop? Absolutely. Why is it: TOP TEN PICK OR UNDRAFTED! (insert zzzzz,****, and personal attacks where deemed necessary) with him? it gets old. like really old. JPP taking the form of the martyr and not giving any explanations and crap is equally annoying.

Now I like Luck, A LOT. Smart, well coached, great intangibles and arm, comes from a great system. Yes, he's got flaws, but I don't think he should be looked down upon because he has a good OL and talent around him. He's looked good, as he should. He's winning and doing well with great talent, like he should. Now yes, it can be up for debate if it's the talent making the QB, but that's up for scouts to decide, but I feel he's got all the tools to make a smooth transition to the NFL.

scottyboy
01-04-2011, 09:17 AM
yea sniper, i came away super impressed with Fleener...then looked up his stats and was like...wtf?
However, I think he may have found him spot at least at a training camp with last nights game. 6'6, seemed athletic.(see the leap, good speed, etc). Didn't really key in on his blocking, but he seems he could find a home in the NFL.

Sniper
01-04-2011, 09:18 AM
yea sniper, i came away super impressed with Fleener...then looked up his stats and was like...wtf?
However, I think he may have found him spot at least at a training camp with last nights game. 6'6, seemed athletic.(see the leap, good speed, etc). Didn't really key in on his blocking, but he seems he could find a home in the NFL.

On the other hand, when a tight end is that wide-open, it makes you think that it's more the playcalling and what the defense is giving the offense.

scottyboy
01-04-2011, 09:21 AM
this is true, but when you've got a mixture of an H-back tweener in Beckum who your coaching staff doesn't use and a starting TE (who i love to death) that runs about a 7 second 40, a big guy with some athleticism is nice to see and makes me want him on the Giants haha

Babylon
01-04-2011, 10:23 AM
I wasn't that impressed by luck today. He looks like a late first rounder but projected #1 overall because of a weak qb class.

How could one not be impressed. A few early mistakes he cleaned up and he was lights out. Now i will say he's playing behind the best line in America and for some reason marginal prospects get huge seperation but what is he supposed to do overthrow them?. the only throw i would like to see him improve on is the deep sideline route but other than that clearly the #1 pick. Class act. comparison=Matt Ryan/Peyton Manning.

brat316
01-04-2011, 10:25 AM
Lol generalizations...sounds a lot like a typical Locker post actually. Put me on ignore. K?



Why are you on these forums if you have a problem with criticizing prospects?

jballa838
01-04-2011, 10:36 AM
Not even going to bother responding to the first 3/4 of your post because it will turn into a Luck vs. Locker pissing match, but holy hell, care to check facts before you post this garbage?

this thread is about Andrew Luck, I refuse to mention the other QB you mentioned in this thread, just for the sake of avoiding the inevitable bashing of heads.


1. Brady Quinn never played with Golden Tate.
2. If you take out last night, "elite" TE Colby Fleener had 261 receiving yards and four touchdowns all season. He was Stanford's leading receiver amongst tight ends. So I ask- who's this "elite TE" that Luck throws to all the time?
3. Chris Owusu is an elite WR? With his 396 receiving yards and three touchdowns? Is this serious?
Sorry. Jeff Samardzija. Who was a finalist for the biletnikoff and maxwell. Owusu grades out as a 2nd-3rd round WR when he finally declares from what i've read, and most teams would kill for that. Doug Baldwin is an excellent College WR, Ryan Whalen is serviceable.
On the other hand, when a tight end is that wide-open, it makes you think that it's more the playcalling and what the defense is giving the offense.
On the tight end thing, I'm going to go with that. His combined stats for TE receiving on the season:
Fleener: 28 for 434 7 TD's
Reuland: 19 for 195 1 TD
Ertz: 16 for 190 5 TD's

Combined effort for their 3 top TE's: 63 catches for 819 and 13 td's. By committee, that is one hell of a season.

Sniper
01-04-2011, 10:45 AM
Sorry. Jeff Samardzija. Who was a finalist for the biletnikoff and maxwell. Owusu grades out as a 2nd-3rd round WR when he finally declares from what i've read, and most teams would kill for that.

I don't really give a **** what he projects at in the NFL. I know he missed some games, but he still had a poor season. He's definitely far from elite.

Doug Baldwin is an excellent College WR, Ryan Whalen is serviceable.

And neither of them are elite.

On the tight end thing, I'm going to go with that. His combined stats for TE receiving on the season:
Fleener: 28 for 434 7 TD's
Reuland: 19 for 195 1 TD
Ertz: 16 for 190 5 TD's

Combined effort for their 3 top TE's: 63 catches for 819 and 13 td's. By committee, that is one hell of a season.

Dude, what the ****? You can't just say "he throws to an elite TE" and then when I point out that you're wrong, combine everyone's stats into some kind of Super Tight End. You could grab three players from the same position off of any team and probably make their combined stats look good.

I don't know why everyone says Washington had no WRs this year. Their top three wideouts combined for 1,887 yards and 18 touchdowns. That's one hell of a season.

Michigan had some real gamebreaking wideouts. Their top three receivers combined for 2,161 yards and 15 touchdowns. That's one hell of a season.

no bare feet
01-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Brady Quinn had a low comp % vs. defenses ranked in the top 60. He was awful v. good teams. I don't see the comparison at all.

jballa838
01-04-2011, 10:49 AM
I don't really give a **** what he projects at in the NFL. I know he missed some games, but he still had a poor season. He's definitely far from elite.



And neither of them are elite.



Dude, what the ****? You can't just say "he throws to an elite TE" and then when I point out that you're wrong, combine everyone's stats into some kind of Super Tight End. You could grab three players from the same position off of any team and probably make their combined stats look good.

I don't know why everyone says Washington had no WRs this year. Their top three wideouts combined for 1,887 yards and 18 touchdowns. That's one hell of a season.

Michigan had some real gamebreaking wideouts. Their top three receivers combined for 2,161 yards and 15 touchdowns. That's one hell of a season.
All three TE's are mismatches against Linebackers, who are covering them in most instances. They play a committee role in this offense. Adding up 3 WR's make no sense, since most of college football is now played with 3 WR's on the field. Stanford might be one of maybe 10 schools that even have 3 TE's on the field at one point, and they seldom do that.

Sniper
01-04-2011, 10:54 AM
All three TE's are mismatches against Linebackers, who are covering them in most instances.

Yeah, it really showed in their mediocre stats.

They play a committee role in this offense.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean they're elite, which is exactly what you said.

Brady Quinn, aka Captain Checkdown, had a bunch of games like this, where he had a high completion percentage making easy throws to elite TE's (Carlson/Pick one for stanford) and WR's (Tate/Owusu).

I still don't see how Owusu is elite when he averages 49 yards per game. I sure as hell don't see how any of the Stanford tight ends are elite, especially in the context where you make it seem like they're all All-Americans (elite TEs...pick one for Stanford)

Adding up three wideouts makes as much sense as adding up three tight ends and pretending like they're one Super Tight End.

Babylon
01-04-2011, 11:06 AM
I don't really give a **** what he projects at in the NFL. I know he missed some games, but he still had a poor season. He's definitely far from elite.



And neither of them are elite.



Dude, what the ****? You can't just say "he throws to an elite TE" and then when I point out that you're wrong, combine everyone's stats into some kind of Super Tight End. You could grab three players from the same position off of any team and probably make their combined stats look good.

I don't know why everyone says Washington had no WRs this year. Their top three wideouts combined for 1,887 yards and 18 touchdowns. That's one hell of a season.

Michigan had some real gamebreaking wideouts. Their top three receivers combined for 2,161 yards and 15 touchdowns. That's one hell of a season.

Not sure who said Washington had no WRs, my ***** was they didnt perform well against good teams. Kearse,their best receiver, had 63 catches but only 15 against (Nebraska, Stanford, Ucla, Oregon, Arizona) and by my count he dropped 12 passes this year.

Sniper
01-04-2011, 11:09 AM
Not sure who said Washington had no WRs, my ***** was they didnt perform well against good teams. Kearse,their best receiver, had 63 catches but only 15 against (Nebraska, Stanford, Ucla, Oregon, Arizona) and by my count he dropped 12 passes this year.

I suppose the sarcasm flew over your head.

Babylon
01-04-2011, 11:21 AM
I suppose the sarcasm flew over your head.

Now that i read it you're right, i should listen to you more often.:-D

domingo
01-04-2011, 11:55 AM
I think that something a few people forget about Andrew Luck is that he is just a third year sophomore. As good as he is, we are not looking at a finished product.

jballa838
01-04-2011, 12:13 PM
I just did one of these with a youtube clip for the Stanford-UW game. Let's just say the anatomy of a 7/14 game is actually more promising than this, when it comes to the next level.

ElectricEye
01-04-2011, 12:40 PM
Yeah, it really showed in their mediocre stats.
I'm surprised Fleener didn't get better numbers. I saw him do a lot of damage in the middle of the season against Oregon, Notre Dame, and USC. He's very, very capable. Athletic enough to get up the seam on college safeties. Evan Moore wasn't overly productive for Stanford outside of one year and he's doing just fine in the NFL as a piece player.



That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean they're elite, which is exactly what you said.
Ertz is a big time talent for the position and Rueland is a real solid all around player. Harbaugh goes out of his way to compliment him all the time. The numbers aren't super, but as a group they're very talented. Perfectly suited for what Stanford does on offense.


I still don't see how Owusu is elite when he averages 49 yards per game. I sure as hell don't see how any of the Stanford tight ends are elite, especially in the context where you make it seem like they're all All-Americans (elite TEs...pick one for Stanford)

Adding up three wideouts makes as much sense as adding up three tight ends and pretending like they're one Super Tight End.

Owusu dealt with a ton on injuries this year and didn't play a whole ton. He had a very major concussion on one of the more brutal hits we've seen this year. Really looked like he was seriously hurt from a medical perspective, not just a football one of that play.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Andrew Luck, love him as a prospect, but I think you're reading way too much into the numbers for these Stanford receivers. Luck spreads the ball around all over the place and they attempted less than 400 passes this year. So the numbers are about what you would expect with that in mind.

Sniper
01-04-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm surprised Fleener didn't get better numbers. I saw him do a lot of damage in the middle of the season against Oregon, Notre Dame, and USC. He's very, very capable. Athletic enough to get up the seam on college safeties. Evan Moore wasn't overly productive for Stanford outside of one year and he's doing just fine in the NFL as a piece player.

I'm not saying that he's not a good player. I simply said that he's not elite, which is exactly what jballa called him/them.

Ertz is a big time talent for the position and Rueland is a real solid all around player. Harbaugh goes out of his way to compliment him all the time. The numbers aren't super, but as a group they're very talented. Perfectly suited for what Stanford does on offense.

Again, not elite.

Owusu dealt with a ton on injuries this year and didn't play a whole ton. He had a very major concussion on one of the more brutal hits we've seen this year. Really looked like he was seriously hurt from a medical perspective, not just a football one of that play.

Again, not elite.

ElectricEye
01-04-2011, 12:56 PM
Not elite talent wise, but very good and works well together with the schemes. The last part is what separates them from just about any other offensive unit in the NCAA right now and they deserve credit for that. Basically, elite or not, Andrew Luck does through to open receivers. He deserves just as much praise for reading defenses as Stanford does for their talent and level or preparation. I think you're undervaluing the talent level there because the numbers don't show it.

Really can't say enough about Stanford's football team right now. If I were a GM, I would want every draftable prospect on that team because they're all very coach able and it shows up very obviously on the field. Really, really love the way Harbaugh runs that team and he'll be a great coach wherever he goes. Sort of sad he won't stay because he really has that team going in the right direction.

wicket
01-04-2011, 01:02 PM
I have a couple of seperate points about this whole thread.

- Hitting the open receiver well is also a skill, its basically what brees did large parts of last season and as a fan of a team with terrible qb play this season ive really grown to appreciate this way more.
- If you would do the same for Ryan Mallett you would see 18 throws to guys who were not open at all, of which he completes about half with in insane throw. The one point is that another wideout would be way more open.
- Brady Quinn was a good QB prospect, he has flamed out violently but saying he was a bad prospect back in the day is just stupid and forcefully seeking similarities between current prospects and flamed out guys who were drafted in the past is just lame. All the things that could be said about quinn could also be said about a guy like bradford.
- You always have to consider what a QB has to work with, comparing stats is pretty lame unless the situations are really alike.

brasho
01-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Yeah, unless you're an expert at something...this has to be the one thing that we as a society feel the need to correct and insult people who do jobs we don't. We don't pretend we know more than doctors, lawyers, police officers, teachers or tell them how to do their jobs. At least any rational person shouldn't. Hell those are the people that we don't even recognize...they're grunts doing real jobs. Sports...not that's an area we're all experts in and we think we can watch a bowl game or maybe one or 2 others a season and pick out who can play in the NFL and who can't. Yeah Jake Lockers a bum because he can't throw for 300 yards on Nebraska with UFL receivers. Nobody even digs remotely deep on anything pertaining to QBs. They see a couple incompletions or an interception and oh, they suck! Shame on Jake Locker...he tucked and ran ran when we saw an open receiver...he's not draftable! Lol

Really? I think society has proven time and time again that they think they know more than lawyers, doctors, police officers, teachers...and you forgot one, politicians. There are so many people out there giving legal advice, medical advice, teaching advice, and political assertions without even the slightest familiarity with the subjects.

At least some of us watch football religiously, study what it is that has made other players successful or unsuccessful and try to positively link those attributes and traits to draft prospects. And unlike some of the professions you mentioned, football scouting is not an exact science, there are always exceptions, but I think some average joes not in the know can develop a great understanding of what it takes to become successful in the NFL setting.

brasho
01-04-2011, 01:13 PM
I have a couple of seperate points about this whole thread.

- Hitting the open receiver well is also a skill, its basically what brees did large parts of last season and as a fan of a team with terrible qb play this season ive really grown to appreciate this way more.
- If you would do the same for Ryan Mallett you would see 18 throws to guys who were not open at all, of which he completes about half with in insane throw. The one point is that another wideout would be way more open.
- Brady Quinn was a good QB prospect, he has flamed out violently but saying he was a bad prospect back in the day is just stupid and forcefully seeking similarities between current prospects and flamed out guys who were drafted in the past is just lame. All the things that could be said about quinn could also be said about a guy like bradford.
- You always have to consider what a QB has to work with, comparing stats is pretty lame unless the situations are really alike.

And finding the open receiver is as big or an even bigger skill than most of the physical skills draftniks and experts like to harp on. Being a good QB is at least 75% mental (if accuracy can be considering a mental function)...how else could the Detmer brothers have lasted so long in the NFL?

LonghornsLegend
01-04-2011, 01:30 PM
If I ever feel a thread on here is worth a sore thumb, ill get right on that. You seem to add so much to the conversation too piggy-backing and demanding explanations. How bou you just read what's posted on this board and let some of it sink in? It should be called NFLDCAL--NFL Draft Countdown Against Locker.


Everybody hated Josh Freeman here the whole off-season, he got bashed like nobody I can ever remember. Who cares if Locker gets the same treatment, that's why you just contribute with things you actually see on the field and not complaining because not enough people like him.

scottyboy
01-04-2011, 01:34 PM
how the hell is accuracy a mental attribute? I can vision myself threading the needle between that safety and corner, but placing it there? that's all physical my friend...

Babylon
01-04-2011, 01:35 PM
And finding the open receiver is as big or an even bigger skill than most of the physical skills draftniks and experts like to harp on. Being a good QB is at least 75% mental (if accuracy can be considering a mental function)...how else could the Detmer brothers have lasted so long in the NFL?

Not sure about the % but you're right on. The thing is guys get drafted probably more on physical ability and that is where scouting comes in. Luck aces the mental part of the game and others with more raw talent can maybe get to that level or maybe not. This year's class may be the toughest to evaluate that i've seen maybe since 99.

gpngc
01-04-2011, 01:56 PM
you only say that cause of hindsight. And, if you supposedly knew this all along you were probably in the minority back when he was drafted.

Also, it's funny how Jballa precisely analyzed and wrote everything down and other posters can respond with something so vague like:

"well how about that one pass where he threw that perfect accurate strike to his receiver?!?!?"

Except for the fact that it wasn't vague at all and I was referencing a specific play and that anyone who watched the game knew exactly what I was talking about...

baronzeus
01-04-2011, 05:50 PM
lol @ comparing Owusu to Tate. Do you even watch Stanford games? He was on the field for very few plays during the Orange Bowl. He hasn't recovered from injury for a while.

baronzeus
01-04-2011, 05:52 PM
Let's also remember that a lot of times Luck has open receivers because he's great at stepping up in the pocket/in the face of pressure/rolling out of the pocket and waiting for receivers to open up. Just about any team will have open receivers after 4-5 seconds.

Babylon
01-04-2011, 05:59 PM
Let's also remember that a lot of times Luck has open receivers because he's great at stepping up in the pocket/in the face of pressure/rolling out of the pocket and waiting for receivers to open up. Just about any team will have open receivers after 4-5 seconds.

He had enough time to throw when they played the Huskys to sit back there and make a pie.

baronzeus
01-04-2011, 06:04 PM
He had enough time to throw when they played the Huskys to sit back there and make a pie.

Not sure what your point is.

Babylon
01-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Not sure what your point is.

The point is a lot of time he has open receivers because he has the best offensive line in the country giving him time to throw. It isnt a great skill on the QBs part when he doesnt get his jersey dirty. I do like the way he moves to find better throwing lanes for sure.

Miaoww
01-04-2011, 06:27 PM
A post of mine from a couple months ago...

JBalla's statistical breakdown directly coincides with what I said here. Every time I see Luck he seems tentative about throwing the ball down the field. I'm not going to give him the tag "Captain Checkdown" quite yet but I've yet to see him consistently challenge a defense with down field throws. Maybe the offense he's in calls for primarily short, underneath passes and the offense is limiting him; though I'm not so sure that's entirely the case. His unwillingness to to push the ball down the field may have to do with his own limitations. His arm is satisfactory. Not saying its too weak for an NFL starter but its far from a strength of his. It's not so much the deep ball as much as it is the the zip that's lacking on his passes. I don't know if his tendency to check it down a lot is a physical limitation, psychological limitation or just how he plays the position. Either way, its concerning. It feels like this has been a pattern throughout the season that people have ignored. You can call it over analyzing but it would be a pretty significant thing to overlook.

Excellent analysis. We don't always see eye to eye, but you're noting my problems with Luck too.

It's obvious to see why scouts have fallen in love with him - he looks the part physically, he has very good mechanics and he puts up the numbers. However, the mitigating factors worry me, especially as a Panthers fan. I really don't see enough zip on his passes - like you, I question if he has an NFL arm (or at least the kind of arm you'd look for in the #1 pick). Plus there's the fact that he's on a incredibly coached team and has all day to make his throws.

WCH
01-04-2011, 06:52 PM
On the tight end thing, I'm going to go with that. His combined stats for TE receiving on the season:
Fleener: 28 for 434 7 TD's
Reuland: 19 for 195 1 TD
Ertz: 16 for 190 5 TD's

Combined effort for their 3 top TE's: 63 catches for 819 and 13 td's. By committee, that is one hell of a season.

To add perspective, here are the top 3 TE's for Eastern Michigan:

Ben Thayer: 30 for 386 and 3 TDs.
Garrett Hoskins: 8 for 217 and 2 TDs.
Josh LeDuc: 17 for 155 and 1 TD.

That's 55 catches for 758 yards and 6 td's. So they have fewer TD's (probably reflecting the fact that the team sucked and they spent less time in the redzone), but a higher YPC, and only 61 fewer yards. Imagine if they had Locker or Luck throwing to them!!!

I guess that is one hell of a season, by committee.

baronzeus
01-04-2011, 07:42 PM
The point is a lot of time he has open receivers because he has the best offensive line in the country giving him time to throw. It isnt a great skill on the QBs part when he doesnt get his jersey dirty. I do like the way he moves to find better throwing lanes for sure.

Okay, then that wasn't related to the point I was making. But it's a fair point as a completely separate topic.

RaiderNation
01-04-2011, 07:46 PM
All I know is a saw a NFL QB last night, he was a man amongst kids out there. His personality reminds me of Peyton Manning

gpngc
01-04-2011, 07:54 PM
Excellent analysis. We don't always see eye to eye, but you're noting my problems with Luck too.

It's obvious to see why scouts have fallen in love with him - he looks the part physically, he has very good mechanics and he puts up the numbers. However, the mitigating factors worry me, especially as a Panthers fan. I really don't see enough zip on his passes - like you, I question if he has an NFL arm (or at least the kind of arm you'd look for in the #1 pick). Plus there's the fact that he's on a incredibly coached team and has all day to make his throws.

This should not be held against him though. And when he does face pressure, he navigates against it beautifully.

I understand the "zip" concern - I see it too. His arm strength doesn't seem to be much more than average.

But the fact is - accuracy and decision-making outweigh brute arm strength in nearly every single case.

And it's not like he has Pennington's arm or Leinart's arm or Quinn's arm... He can sling it. The 8 over the middle against man coverage in the 1Q showed that. As did the 3rd down throw in 3Q running backwards against a lot of pressure.

I guess my point is that "the kind of arm you look for in a #1 pick" is Russell's arm. In other word's, a laser arm is just a bonus because if you have everything else Luck has, you're in a great position to be a franchise QB.

Miaoww
01-04-2011, 08:51 PM
This should not be held against him though. And when he does face pressure, he navigates against it beautifully.

I understand the "zip" concern - I see it too. His arm strength doesn't seem to be much more than average.

But the fact is - accuracy and decision-making outweigh brute arm strength in nearly every single case.

And it's not like he has Pennington's arm or Leinart's arm or Quinn's arm... He can sling it. The 8 over the middle against man coverage in the 1Q showed that. As did the 3rd down throw in 3Q running backwards against a lot of pressure.

I guess my point is that "the kind of arm you look for in a #1 pick" is Russell's arm. In other word's, a laser arm is just a bonus because if you have everything else Luck has, you're in a great position to be a franchise QB.

Or Cutler, or Favre.

But yes you make a good point. I don't think Manning has a cannon either - he just puts the ball where it needs to be.

FUNBUNCHER
01-04-2011, 08:54 PM
Anticipation and timing can mitigate having less than a cannon arm.

ElectricEye
01-04-2011, 08:58 PM
To add perspective, here are the top 3 TE's for Eastern Michigan:

Ben Thayer: 30 for 386 and 3 TDs.
Garrett Hoskins: 8 for 217 and 2 TDs.
Josh LeDuc: 17 for 155 and 1 TD.

That's 55 catches for 758 yards and 6 td's. So they have fewer TD's (probably reflecting the fact that the team sucked and they spent less time in the redzone), but a higher YPC, and only 61 fewer yards. Imagine if they had Locker or Luck throwing to them!!!

I guess that is one hell of a season, by committee.

That's not actually that bad really. Apparently Eastern Michigan has legit tight ends. Especially considering they threw it a hundred less times. So adjust them to that, and they DID have a better season. Must be better players right?

Boy, gotta love statistics.

WCH
01-04-2011, 10:07 PM
That's not actually that bad really. Apparently Eastern Michigan has legit tight ends.

That's sort of funny to me. I chose them as an example because I went to Eastern, still follow the program a little bit, and I know how much the team sucks! They were the only team I bothered to look up the stats on.

Maybe we just found some sleeper prospects in the EMU TE's? ;)

On a side note, while we're talking QBs, I like the looks of Ryan Mallett. What's his deal? Does everybody assume he's going back for another season at Arkansas?

FUNBUNCHER
01-04-2011, 10:29 PM
Not to jack, but Mallett is GONE.
He's not getting any better under Petrino.

nyqua
01-04-2011, 11:42 PM
I thought Luck was really impressive yesterday. He moves around the pocket really really well to extend plays and is really accurate. He also looks pretty fast and I think his 40 time will be really good.

This thread seems like Locker fans who are mad he isn't getting as much publicity as Luck, so they are making a "Luck was good on wide open throws but was terrible on actual NFL throws he's gonna be a bust" thread.

jballa838
01-05-2011, 12:00 AM
This thread seems like Locker fans who are mad he isn't getting as much publicity as Luck, so they are making a "Luck was good on wide open throws but was terrible on actual NFL throws he's gonna be a bust" thread.
Seriously? I didn't mention Jake Locker once. I have one of his games dissected the same way, but more thorough and with respect to the time he had to throw. Took one of his worst games, too.

Let me just say this, once Andrew Luck does under the needle and people start to dissect his games, he won't be thought of as this outstanding QB who has no flaws. Am I bold enough to say that he won't be drafted first overall? No, I am not that bold, but once I can go through and micro-analyze, chances are I won't be alone on that thought.

nyqua
01-05-2011, 12:10 AM
Seriously? I didn't mention Jake Locker once. I have one of his games dissected the same way, but more thorough and with respect to the time he had to throw. Took one of his worst games, too.

I know, I made a big jump and concluded you were a Locker fan based on some observations.

jballa838
01-05-2011, 12:15 AM
I know, I made a big jump and concluded you were a Locker fan based on some observations.
was it the avatar or signature that gave it away?

Just because I've seen 36 Jake Locker starts from start to finish does not mean I am now under-qualified to make acute observations, which was all this thread began as. I cannot possibly bias how many yards andrew luck picked up on a play, which is what the original post is.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 12:21 AM
I actually have the Washington/Stanford game on my computer. I'm going to go ahead and fast forward through it to watch Locker (I downloaded it to do so with Luck a couple weeks ago) and I'll report back with every play. I think I'm about as unbiased as they come w/r/t Locker. I don't personally have any reason to hate on him, nor am I a Washington fan. If Luck doesn't come out, I would absolutely want my team to take a look at Locker and determine for themselves whether he could be a franchise QB or not

Reporting back when it's done...

nyqua
01-05-2011, 12:26 AM
I actually have the Washington/Stanford game on my computer. I'm going to go ahead and fast forward through it to watch Locker (I downloaded it to do so with Luck a couple weeks ago) and I'll report back with every play. I think I'm about as unbiased as they come w/r/t Locker. I don't personally have any reason to hate on him, nor am I a Washington fan. If Luck doesn't come out, I would absolutely want my team to take a look at Locker and determine for themselves whether he could be a franchise QB or not

Reporting back when it's done...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQWeHycyqmU

This has his throws. And that Youtube account has all of Luck's throws for that game as well.

bullg8rdaddy
01-05-2011, 12:31 AM
/Patiently waiting for Schizo's report.

Babylon
01-05-2011, 12:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQWeHycyqmU

This has his throws. And that Youtube account has all of Luck's throws for that game as well.

I had better receivers in Pop Warner.

brat316
01-05-2011, 01:00 AM
Anyone do Mallet?

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 03:02 AM
I dont like using youtube cuts because you don't get the right feel for the game along with no pre-snap action. However, it seems I deleted the game I had on my computer so I'll make do with the youtube

Dropback 1: Locker completes an 8 yard pass on his first read out of the shot gun. The ball is actually a bit of a duck and takes a while to get to his WR. An NFL DB may have jumped this route and taken it to the house. However, Locker made his read quickly enough and the Stanford DB, who was playing well off the WR and backpeddling, went for the tackle

Run 1: I don't think I know the proper terminology for this play but whatever. Basically Locker takes a snap out of the shotgun and fakes a fly sweep type run, except the fake is like the zone read stuff that is all the rage now. Washington has used this a great deal in their offense this season from what I can tell. Anyway, Locker keeps the ball and runs for 7 yards. He breaks an arm tackle 2 yards deep in the back field. An NFL defender might've stopped him for a loss but Locker isn't running this play in the NFL regardless because if he did, he'd get concussed the 2nd time he ran it due to the contact at the end of the play

Dropback 2: Shotgun snap...Locker quickly fakes play action and throws a smoke screen to the outside. Ball is delivered quickly with strong velocity on target but the WR is unable to pick up the 2 yards for the first down (it was 2nd and 2) because an LB did not bite on the play action. The LB was Shayne Skov, fwiw

Dropback 3: Shotgun/pistol formation hybrid, Locker drops back after play action (not the best fake but whatever) and rolls to his right. A Stanford defender is unaffected by a chip from the second RB (#24) who releases him from the block to leak open for a short pass. If Locker throws to 24 here he has an open field to run in with a lineman chasing him. However, Locker is committed to throwing to a WR running a come back route on the outside. He throws mid-stride about a tick before the released defender clobbers him. Not the best form on the pass but the ball gets to the WR...and although it's a bit low the pass is only where his receiver could catch it. The WR actually does a good job adjusting to the pass but has it go right through his hands and bounce off his chest. IMO this is an example of a play where Locker is "let down" by his teammates but a better play from him could have resulted in the poor play not occuring

Dropback 4: Interesting playcall as Locker is under center on 3rd and 20. He takes a deep drop back and gets to his second read, which I believe may be open for a short pass (hard to tell from the camera angle) but if I'm reading the Stanford zone correctly, wouldn't be a large gain without a broken tackle. He's staring down the route a bit before he loses the ball on a forced fumble. Locker actually showed good pocket instincts here to drift forward as the free Stanford rusher was forced around him but he had the ball punched out because he left it uncovered by his waist. This can be fixed with NFL coaching. You'll see QBs with elite pocket mobility hop forward here with the ball raised high with and a second hand on it. Or a runner like Vick take off in the open field holding it out like a loaf of bread. Anyway, Locker fell on the fumble for the recovery. Not a good play because he had other options but on 3rd and 20 those options (short pass, scramble) weren't going to pick up the first

Dropback 5: Ugh, this is one of the things that bugs me most about Jake Locker. After receiving the shotgun snap he takes one step back, then freezes as he looks at the left side of the field. I don't know what it is that bothers me most about this tendency...if he just turns his body too much towards one side or if it's because he isn't moving his feet. Whatever it is, I get the feeling he wouldn't do it had he gone to another program. Regardless, it looks like he has the shortest route to his left open for a small window but the WR wouldve need to break a tackle to pick up yards. After choosing not to throw that pass Locker tucks it and runs right-center because a Stanford DT had backed up his interior lineman into his face. A less battered QB would have kept his head up while moving in the same direction and completed a pass to one of the receivers on his right. Theoretically. Said QB could also fumble the ball attempting to pass in traffic or throw a pick with a bad pass. Locker probably thought he had more room to run here but the Stanford player who tackled him did a good job coming off his block. Speaking of which, lot of Stanford defenders losing their helmets in this game

Dropback 6: Again I don't like the way Locker drops back here but ultimately it doesn't matter because he gets all of 1 second before a Stanford rusher who blew through two blocks obliterates him. I suppose if you're being hypercritical you could say he could've scrambled to his right but he was reading left and got absolutely zero time. Faultless here. If you listen to Washington fans this is what Locker deals with on every play but in this case - no hyperbole, he had no chance.

Dropback 7: Playaction fake from under center. Locker looks great running this and drifts up in the pocket to avoid the pressure coming from his left. Would love to see a nice throw coming off it but it's impossible to tell if he has anyone open down field from the camera angle. Considering Stanford didn't bite on the fake at all I'm guessing not but the WR on the wide left looked to be in single coverage. Locker scrambles to his left and draws defenders out of coverage before making a great throw on the run to the now open WR I mentioned before (throwing right handed while scrambling left = nice, even if WR is open...plus he caused him to come open). Reminiscent of extremely frustrating plays Vick used to pull out of his *** against the Panthers. Great play

...hold on, have replay of some of the down field routes. Locker could've tried to throw his crossing route open but it wouldve been a bad decision. He actually had 24 open on the check down after the deep routes weren't open which you're going to tell him on film study to hit if he hadn't made a great play by scrambling. The guy he eventually completed the pass to is actually the one running the crossing route, the WR who lined up on the far left was further upfield in retrospect

Run 2: Zone read. Stanford came with a corner blitz. Locker made the right read to keep the ball as the Stanford DE broke for the RB. Unfortunately the corner who came free is on his tail and Stanford has a wall of guys ready to meet him at the line of scrimmage. Locker dives forward, no gain

Dropback 8: Looks like Locker was about to do another one of those plants that really bothers me but he has to spin backwards and roll left immediately because a blitzing Shayne Skov comes free. Good job to avoid the rusher and get a throw off down field. Tough throw to make on the run going towards his left but he leads his WR a bit far and throws it low. You'd rather see that than a lot of options on that play though...it was put where only his WR could've caught it. Washington fans might argue for PI here but I wouldn't have called it if I was a ref

Dropback 9: Shotgun snap, like the dropback this time. Stanford DB comes free off the line even though he had been there pre-snap and a Washington receiver went in motion to the other side of the field. After a few years in the NFL Locker would have to account for that guy. Not sure if he has that responsibility in this offense, would put a lot of money towards no. Anyway he throws the ball away quickly down the middle of the field. Very much intentional grounding but 11 was barely in the vincinity of the pass. I don't like how skittish Jake looked here in how he just throws the ball away quickly and then ducks away from the contact but I'm not sure how he was supposed to complete a pass here. It was 3rd and long so all the routes were slow developing. I guess he could have tried scrambling but good luck running away from that DB with a full head of steam. On the replay it doesn't look like he altered his throw as much to avoid the hit. Hmm

Dropback 10: Neat little tunnel screen here. Like the playcall but Locker throws an awful pass. Nowhere near the intended receiver. It's so bad I have to believe there was a miscommunication. No excuse otherwise...this is pitch and catch. Mike Leach would be furious

Dropback 11: Shotgun snap on 3rd and long. Locker gets a nice clean pocket with time to pass. He steps forward into the throw but it looks a little off. Can't tell if his arm is really so good that he can just flick it that effortlessly or if he's trying to aim the ball here. From the pass I would lean towards the latter because he's trying to float it in to a covered receiver downfield and overthrew him. Ball was behind the WR too. Bad pass but he didn't really have much to work with here. He needed to fire a laser into an extremely tight window to convert with that route

Dropback 12: More creative playcalling. 24 goes in motion for the snap and Locker fakes a handoff to #1. 24 is open and a good pass that leads him puts him in good position to pick up the first down with only one defender to juke. However, Locker is looking down field the whole way and doesn't even get to 24 in his progressions before Stanfords #44 beats a TE around the edge and sacks him in a collapsing pocket

Dropback 13: 5 wide, Locker steps up past the pressure well and vacates the pocket to his right to throw a good short pass to #15 who's crossing the field free. 15 stiff arms the first Stanford defender to challenge him but is stood up and pushed out of bounds by the second before he could pick up more YAC

Dropback 14: Quick smoke pass to a WR that was covered by a DB playing about 10 yards off the LOS. If this was a pre-snap audible by Locker, it was a good one. 11 stiff arms said DB and picks up 10 yards of YAC

Run 3: QB sneak on 4th and 1. Locker picks it up

Dropback 15: Another one of those fake fly sweeps out of the shotgun but Locker is lazy with the fake this time (well, that and the guy in motion wasn't near him in time) and sets back to throw. I like his form and motion here but he throws an absolutely terrible pass for an INT. The WR stopped running but it doesn't look like he quit on his route to me, it looks like he stopped where he was supposed to and was open in front of the zone/prevent defense. If he kept running into the pass Locker threw he wouldve gotten creamed. Locker was under no duress here, it was just an awful play from what I can tell. If a guy who knows more about football than me says the WR wasn't supposed to sit in the zone I guess I can accept that but it really doesn't look that way to me

Dropback 16: Drops back from under center. I like him a lot more when he does this. What caused Washington to stop running their normal pro-style scheme? I get that they started winning more in the second half of the season but they won with this last year. Anyway he steps into a lane in the pocket quickly after completing his dropback and runs for 7-8 yards. Kinda wish he had stayed in the pocket a bit longer to let the routes develop or had kept his head up as he started to scramble since #9 was open for a short pass as he was stepping up but he saw an opening and took it which I can't argue with too much, especially since he'd have to throw across his body

Dropback 17: The frozen dropback I hate is back. Really have to believe this is coached. I see other QBs in gimmick offenses do this too. Hopefully he's already learning to forget it. The pass itself is great, a strike with a perfect spiral. Well delivered to an open WR. The WR breaks a tackle and picks up another 10 yards, though on replay it looks like he almost fumbled

Dropback 18: Fly sweep fake, rolls to his right and hits the short pass this time to #11. Decent job to wait until he's open and not let the pass be affected by the oncoming defender. 11 actually makes Skov miss along with a couple others but the play is sniffed out so well (probably should have ditched some of the fakes in this game...Stanford wasn't biting on any) that he can barely get past the line of scrimmage

Dropback 19: From under center, double play action fake. Love the dropback, love the way he steps up in the pocket...man, he really looks the part here. Well...that is, until he throws the ball, which is drastically overthrown right into the hands of Stanford's #26. Can't blame the WR here, he was actually open and a good pass hits him for a big gain. Maybe you can blame the LT. He narrowly avoids a holding penalty then allows the Stanford rusher free to hit Locker during the pass, but if that amount of contact messes up your throw that much you're in trouble in the NFL

On my way to ESPN to look up Locker's final statline. If I had to guess right now I'd say something like 8/16 for 85 yards 0 TD 2 INT

The line actually is...7/14 64 yards 0 TD 2 INT

???

Was I missing something? He didn't really get a ton of help in this game and it was a blowout anyway but I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be super impressed. He missed open reads and made bad decisions. I'm sure every quarterback in history does the same if you analyze a game like that but this isn't a guy playing perfectly that's being dragged down entirely by his surrounding cast. It's an extremely raw prospect with great tools playing on a crap team

Clarkw267
01-05-2011, 03:53 AM
I can't believe there are people comparing Luck to Quinn. Quinn had his issues coming out (Arm strength, accuracy on intermediate to long passes)

Luck isn't perfect... but he's about as close as you're gonna find with a QB prospect. He's got the pedigree, frame, arm, mechanics, and intangibles that have people comparing him to Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee.

There's a reason Quinn slid in the draft, and why he's a 3rd string QB in the league right now.

TACKLE
01-05-2011, 05:47 AM
I can't believe there are people comparing Luck to Quinn. Quinn had his issues coming out (Arm strength, accuracy on intermediate to long passes)

Luck isn't perfect... but he's about as close as you're gonna find with a QB prospect. He's got the pedigree, frame, arm, mechanics, and intangibles that have people comparing him to Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee.

There's a reason Quinn slid in the draft, and why he's a 3rd string QB in the league right now.

Luck has the same issues.

There's also a reason why many people thought Quinn should of gone #1 overall and were shocked to see him slide that far. If we don't learn from history, its bound to repeat itself. In no way am I saying that Quinn's lack of success will in anyway influence Luck's future success. But lots of the things that lead to Quinn's downfall were overlooked by many. Even if you feel that Luck is a future HOFer, its still hard to deny the similarities that exist between Luck and Quinn as prospects. Some people who see that similarity, myself included, are just trying to do our due diligence and a thorough evaluation. We are just seeing whether or not the aspects in Quinn's game that caused his shortcomings, exist in Luck's game as well. Whether you're aware of it or not, that is actually what we're all doing when we evaluate prospects.

Forenci
01-05-2011, 07:19 AM
Luck has the same issues.

There's also a reason why many people thought Quinn should of gone #1 overall and were shocked to see him slide that far. If we don't learn from history, its bound to repeat itself. In no way am I saying that Quinn's lack of success will in anyway influence Luck's future success. But lots of the things that lead to Quinn's downfall were overlooked by many. Even if you feel that Luck is a future HOFer, its still hard to deny the similarities that exist between Luck and Quinn as prospects. Some people who see that similarity, myself included, are just trying to do our due diligence and a thorough evaluation. We are just seeing whether or not the aspects in Quinn's game that caused his shortcomings, exist in Luck's game as well. Whether you're aware of it or not, that is actually what we're all doing when we evaluate prospects.

I was one of the people who disliked Quinn as a prospect and I see almost no similarities between them. Luck's mechanics are infinitely better than Quinn's.

I also know you think Luck can't push the ball down field (or at least do so accurately), which I don't understand. I can recount numerous attempts down the field where he's had success. My favorite example is from the ASU game where he was literally falling forward to the ground while being sacked he and fired a perfect laser 40 yards down the field for a completion. Just one of many.

He's not asked to throw the ball deep that often, but that's much of the college game these days. Cam Newton possibly has the strongest arm in college and he's not asked to do it a ton. Nor is Mallett. Even Sam Bradford may not have pushed the ball down field in college or the pros, but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing it when asked of him.

Plus, most people know one of the things young QB's typically will struggle with early in their careers is down field accuracy. There are guys with much bigger arms than Luck who struggle with down field accuracy.

scottyboy
01-05-2011, 07:34 AM
I was not a fan of Mallet last night. Never have been, but last night cemented it in my mind. I see where some of the hype is coming from...but I just don't see it myself really

FUNBUNCHER
01-05-2011, 09:58 AM
I thought Quinn looked awesome at ND, but even still he didn't play at the level of Luck at Stanford.
Luck is uncannily accurate throwing the football, and on intermediate routes he's nearly automatic to make a completion.
I had no clue Quinn would have so many struggles in the pros, considering he had former NFL CO Charlie Weis to mentor him.

Any prospect can bust, even Luck I suppose, but IMO he does seem to be the most prepared to play in the NFL of any prospect coming out of college in years.
I do wonder how Luck performs playing under heavy duress in the pocket since he won't have nearly the Oline in the pros that he had in college.

About Quinn, he's never been allowed to start more than 8 consecutive games in his career, so IMO he's never been given a chance to develop as a young signal caller, and playing for the Browns didn't do him any favors.

He's an afterthought in Denver and I still don't believe he's found his home as a pro.
I don't know if Quinn is actually a subpar NFL QB or has not been given the time he needs to develop.
Unlike Quinn, however, Luck will be given every opportunity by some team to succeed or fall on his face, with a chance to start at least 2-3 years before he's given a final grade.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 03:42 PM
Luck isn't as pinpoint accurate as, say, Sam Bradford but comparing him to Quinn is a little ridiculous. This is the NFL, pretty much anyone can bust, so if you think he will that's fine. But it would be nice if the reasoning for it made more sense...for instance, I'll occasionally see people try to deride prospects with rocket arms and say they have weak arms just because they miss on some deep routes. Not even talking about Luck here, I've seen people argue that Gabbert has a weak arm, or even that a guy like Clausen is on a Pennington-level...which is just dumb, and I don't even like Clausen.

Though if you want to talk about Luck's arm, and I really hate making this comparison because then you open up the argument for every 6'0 QB with college success being Drew Brees but if you must go to one extreme with Quinn then it's time to counter with...

[He] is probably the most prepared QB to enter the NFL draft in several years.. He has had a storybook college career, and has been in a top level program with excellent coaching, and he has maturity and great intangibles to go along with his natural skills.. He should be able to pick up the mental aspects of the game early on the NFL level, and should play very quickly. He has great overall field vision. He is a fierce competitor, and all of his mechanics are very solid. He has good arm strength, but not necessarily a “gun” that you might expect from a QB at the top of the draft.. He has adequate mobility and good overall AA, although he is not a scrambler by nature. He has done an excellent job of getting the most out of his abilities, but he is not quite as natural a player as [the other top QB]. One question that some NFL scouts have is the question “will he get any better?”. At times he gives the appearance of being a self-made player, and sometimes those types of players don’t always go on to great NFL careers. In [his] case, he may be a solid and productive NFL QB, but he may not have Hall of Fame type skills, but it certainly won’t be for lack of effort.. He has probably been the most scouted player in the draft in recent years, and because that NFL teams tend to look too much at potential flaws, instead of accepting him for what he is, a great college QB that is on his way to an outstanding NFL career.

You probably guessed who it was...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/events/1998/nfldraft/topplayers/4.html

Oh, and look at all these wide open receivers he's throwing to who get a ton of YAC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDzPEf3A6ac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iNOhKXloXw - dude chokes when he doesnt have all day to throw and his receivers aren't open, obviously

Again, I hate making that comparison even if some scouts already have because I think it's way too premature. If Luck went back for another 2 years and kept this success up after most of his OLine and top receivers graduated it would be different. I believe he'd be able to, but he simply hasn't

LonghornsLegend
01-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Luck isn't as pinpoint accurate as, say, Sam Bradford but comparing him to Quinn is a little ridiculous. This is the NFL, pretty much anyone can bust, so if you think he will that's fine. But it would be nice if the reasoning for it made more sense...for instance, I'll occasionally see people try to deride prospects with rocket arms and say they have weak arms just because they miss on some deep routes. Not even talking about Luck here, I've seen people argue that Gabbert has a weak arm, or even that a guy like Clausen is on a Pennington-level...which is just dumb, and I don't even like Clausen.

Though if you want to talk about Luck's arm, and I really hate making this comparison because then you open up the argument for every 6'0 QB with college success being Drew Brees but if you must go to one extreme with Quinn then it's time to counter with...



You probably guessed who it was...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/events/1998/nfldraft/topplayers/4.html

Oh, and look at all these wide open receivers he's throwing to who get a ton of YAC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDzPEf3A6ac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iNOhKXloXw - dude chokes when he doesnt have all day to throw and his receivers aren't open, obviously

Again, I hate making that comparison even if some scouts already have because I think it's way too premature. If Luck went back for another 2 years and kept this success up after most of his OLine and top receivers graduated it would be different. I believe he'd be able to, but he simply hasn't




I'm actually glad you posted that, since some people think Peyton was some remarkable prospect that was flawless.


That little excerpt doesn't even bring up how he was blasted for never being able to win the big game while there 4 years, or being able to beat Florida. He had a ton of knocks on him, and he certainly wasn't viewed as some sure fire HOF QB.

gpngc
01-05-2011, 03:48 PM
^The point is a good one.

I also think this part is relevant in this particular thread:

because that NFL teams tend to look too much at potential flaws, instead of accepting him for what he is, a great college QB that is on his way to an outstanding NFL career.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 03:50 PM
yea but if you dont look at the flaws you can end up with a Harrington or a Leaf

it's tough

gpngc
01-05-2011, 04:00 PM
yea but if you dont look at the flaws you can end up with a Harrington or a Leaf

it's tough

I'd much rather draft a guy with literally everything going for him and have him bust than pass on a guy with literally everything going for him and watch him have incredible success with another team.

The reason why the talking heads say he's the best QB prospect in years is probably because it's true...

San Diego Chicken
01-05-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm actually glad you posted that, since some people think Peyton was some remarkable prospect that was flawless.


That little excerpt doesn't even bring up how he was blasted for never being able to win the big game while there 4 years, or being able to beat Florida. He had a ton of knocks on him, and he certainly wasn't viewed as some sure fire HOF QB.

Oh come on. Even while reading through his "knocks" I can't think of a QB in the last 20 years that had fewer of them. If you followed that draft closely you would know that Peyton was thought of as a can't miss, in the moment prospect, either at the level or exceeding Luck's current hype.

yourfavestoner
01-05-2011, 04:49 PM
The point is a lot of time he has open receivers because he has the best offensive line in the country giving him time to throw. It isnt a great skill on the QBs part when he doesnt get his jersey dirty. I do like the way he moves to find better throwing lanes for sure.

He has a good offensive line, sure. But I've said over and over, his ability to work in confined spaces and his nimble footwork in and out of the pocket is his greatest attribute. He has the best feet of any college quarterback I've ever watched. Ever.

Babylon
01-05-2011, 04:56 PM
He has a good offensive line, sure. But I've said over and over, his ability to work in confined spaces and his nimble footwork in and out of the pocket is his greatest attribute. He has the best feet of any college quarterback I've ever watched. Ever.

The thing i like about him is he can move around without taking his eyes of the whole field in front of him. I've always thought John Elway was the best i'd seen in the pocket but Luck is really good too.

yourfavestoner
01-05-2011, 04:59 PM
I said earlier in this thread that he reminds me of (Oakland) Rich Gannon on steroids.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 05:55 PM
if you watch the Arizona State game or even the Bowl game again you really see how it's not just the OLine. I mean you see it in other games too with just how fluid and naturally he moves but he isn't under as much pressure from play to play. But a lesser player - maybe a guy like Mallett - would've gotten flustered and struggled at times, even with Luck's offensive line

It's still a great line no doubt, but the low sack numbers are a combination of the two of them, not solely the ability of one

Harbaugh was in Oakland during Gannon's crazy years, right? Honestly if anyone can make Alex Smith not suck it's probably him

TACKLE
01-05-2011, 06:21 PM
I was one of the people who disliked Quinn as a prospect and I see almost no similarities between them. Luck's mechanics are infinitely better than Quinn's.

I also know you think Luck can't push the ball down field (or at least do so accurately), which I don't understand. I can recount numerous attempts down the field where he's had success. My favorite example is from the ASU game where he was literally falling forward to the ground while being sacked he and fired a perfect laser 40 yards down the field for a completion. Just one of many.

He's not asked to throw the ball deep that often, but that's much of the college game these days. Cam Newton possibly has the strongest arm in college and he's not asked to do it a ton. Nor is Mallett. Even Sam Bradford may not have pushed the ball down field in college or the pros, but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing it when asked of him.

Plus, most people know one of the things young QB's typically will struggle with early in their careers is down field accuracy. There are guys with much bigger arms than Luck who struggle with down field accuracy.

I'll make an effort to steer away from the Brady Quinn-Andrew Luck comparison if I can. People are comparing to Luck to Eli and I don't see that all either. Very different styles of play imo. It's just people overlooked flaws in Quinn's game because of his size, intelligence, mechanics (a lot of people thought his mechanics were solid), polish, pro-style system and overall perceived pro-readiness. I have questions with Luck too and I'm just trying to evaluate whether or not those attributes are actually masking deficiencies in his game.


I've seen that throw against ASU and it left me with conflicted. It is one hell of a throw. There's no denying that. It leaves me conflicted because if he's capable of making a big time throw like that, why doesn't he make them more often. The reason I've questioned his ability to push the ball down field is simply because he doesn't. Rarely does he attempt passes in the 12-20 yard range. There are three reasons why that might be:

1) His arm strength is lacking but he knows his limitations and doesn't feel confident making those throws. I don't care for his arm but I think its sufficient for an NFL QB, especially if you use that ASU throw as a reference.

2) He is simply playing with the parameters of Stanford's offense. The offense is limiting his throwing ability by not showcasing his arm. Like ThePudge always says, you can't fault a guy for doing everything right within the system he plays in. To some extent I know this is the case. But I find it odd that a college offense that had a guy who is viewed as the best QB prospect of the decade and future NFL super star, wouldn't expand their offense that allows him to use his ability to actually throw the ball more than 12 yards (excluding the deep ball). If the offense ain't broke, don't fix it. I understand that. But maybe the offense he's playing in isn't preparing him for the NFL nearly as well as most think.

3) He is cautious about throwing the ball down field because he's afraid of making mistakes. This is probably the most concerning option of all three. The other two can be fixed over time but a overly cautious, tentative mindset will hold him back from being a good NFL quarterback.


I said earlier in this thread that he reminds me of (Oakland) Rich Gannon on steroids.

I am really digging this comparison. People keep saying that his running ability is underrated rated but truth be told its one of his strength and one of the main factors that allows him to be successful. Obviously he's bigger and stronger, but I can definitely see him more of a Rich Gannon/Jake Plummer type who does his best work on the move and on the roll out. If he's going to be a good pro, I believe, early on especially, his style of play will be a lot more like those two than that of a pure pocket passer.

Miaoww
01-05-2011, 06:29 PM
He has a good offensive line, sure. But I've said over and over, his ability to work in confined spaces and his nimble footwork in and out of the pocket is his greatest attribute. He has the best feet of any college quarterback I've ever watched. Ever.

You're one of the best scouts on this board, so it's interesting to hear you say that. Perhaps he is as good as advertised after all.

scpanther22
01-05-2011, 07:50 PM
Is Luck really on that Peyton Manning level coming out of college?

I like Luck and as a Panther fan I hope he lives up to the hype but I just dont see a all world once in a decade type of player.


I do hope I am wrong.lol

FUNBUNCHER
01-05-2011, 08:00 PM
No one thought Peyton would be a player who threw for 4000 yards/25+ TDs a year and win 12 games per season either.

Luck is a great prospect, but how 'great'???
Who really knows???

Miaoww
01-05-2011, 08:34 PM
How highly rated was Peyton coming out? T'was before my time.

As for Luck - gone back to look at some tape today. He's not pressured very often, but he does do a good job of avoiding it when it comes.

I'm really struggling to get over the lack of zip on his throws though.

CashmoneyDrew
01-05-2011, 08:39 PM
Peyton was an elite prospect. Scott told me that he was probably the best QB prospect he's graded.

Peyton did have some questions, though like even elite prospects do.
People asked if he had the ability to win the big game. They also thought he was a fairly "finished" product coming out so some people thought he didn't have much upside.
Also, his arm strength was probably criticized as not elite since he was being compared constantly to Ryan Leaf who had an ungodly arm.

GoRavens
01-05-2011, 09:12 PM
I think Tennessee (getting rid of stinky poo boy Vince Young) will trade up, somehow, and grab luck.
Carolina has Jimmy Clausen!
The prodigy man child QB.
Has everyone given up on him so soon?
That's down right absurd.
Clausen needs protection and some godarn receivers.
Andrew Luck will not be a Panther.
I've narrowed it down to the top 3 most likely suitors.
3) San Fran
2) Arizona
1) Tennessee Titans

Wrathman
01-05-2011, 09:20 PM
I think Tennessee (getting rid of stinky poo boy Vince Young) will trade up, somehow, and grab luck.
Carolina has Jimmy Clausen!
The prodigy man child QB.
Has everyone given up on him so soon?
That's down right absurd.
Clausen needs protection and some godarn receivers.
Andrew Luck will not be a Panther.
I've narrowed it down to the top 3 most likely suitors.
3) San Fran
2) Arizona
1) Tennessee Titans

I love sarcasm! Clearly Clausen was a prodigy. I never did understand why so many teams desperate for a franchise quarterback passed on him - some twice - last year. It's like they could evaluate talent or something. Bizarre.

Monomach
01-05-2011, 09:28 PM
Harbaugh was in Oakland during Gannon's crazy years, right? Honestly if anyone can make Alex Smith not suck it's probably him

He was only there for the last of his good years, so he can't really get any credit for Gannon.

Monomach
01-05-2011, 09:40 PM
Peyton was an elite prospect. Scott told me that he was probably the best QB prospect he's graded. Yep. He was an incredible prospect. I've never seen a guy who looked so "finished." He's the QB prospect I've liked the most over the years. My number two was Jeff George. lol @ me.

Peyton did have some questions, though like even elite prospects do.
People asked if he had the ability to win the big game. Yep. Some of the less intelligent folks out there had Leaf over him because OH MY GOD MANNING CAN'T EVEN BEAT FLORIDA EVER!!1!!1

They also thought he was a fairly "finished" product coming out so some people thought he didn't have much upside.
Also, his arm strength was probably criticized as not elite since he was being compared constantly to Ryan Leaf who had an ungodly arm.Nah. It's just that some folks thought Leaf's was better. Only by a hair, though. Even the people who favored Leaf admitted that Manning's arm was elite.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 10:09 PM
oh and if someone wants a rundown of luck's game vs washington here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/user/DraftSteal#p/u/9/UYRM31XJMew

not going as in depth because it took like an hour to do Locker and Luck probably had more plays

Dropback 1: playaction roll to left, free defender coming after him, good completion to an open WR. eventhough guy was open a difficult throw rolling to left as a right hander

Dropback 2: playaction, looks like some of the washington defenders bit on the fake, luck throws good, catchable ball to an open WR about 15 yards upfield. not a rocket pass but good arc wouldve made it a difficult pass to defend even if WR was covered

Dropback 3: playaction roll to left, washington defender comes free and he rolls right into him...defender is laying into him as he passes. luck throws over the tackle and actually gets off a nice pass leading an open TE in the flats but the TE drops it. possible he lead him just a bit too far but an NFL receiver catches that and runs with it

Dropback 4: straight drop back from under center. not sure if Luck throws to his second read or if it was his first read and he's just looking off the coverage - if it was his second read he went through his progression very fast. throws a pass with good velocity about 6-7 yards to a WR with a DB playing a few yards off him. pass is high but catchable. better pass may allow WR chance for YAC but it was a completion

Run 1: Zone read. Luck makes the right decision to keep the ball because DE cuts for the RB. He sprints untouched 50 yards for a TD because the Washington safety also bit on the RB and he had enough acceleration to get past the direction changing DE and a CB who is fighting off a block. good play that wouldve picked up a first down (it was 3rd and 2) against most teams but isn't a 50 yard TD against ones that dont suck

Dropback 5: drop back from under center, throws to open receiver who went in motion before the snap but the receiver drops it. pass is maybe a touch low but not in the ground. shouldve been a catch at minimum and probably a first down

Dropback 6: Shotgun, Luck does a good job not staring anyone down at the start and throws a completion for first down to a receiver running a post route. Receiver beat his man but isn't wide open, good pass gets there before the safety can come up to break it up. If he didnt throw that pass he had a checkdown receiver coming wide open in the middle of the field but it was short of the first down (it was 3rd). Washington CB called for holding or PI as well as he grabbed the receiver's jersey

Dropback 7: drop back from under center, has a clean pocket with little pressure, moves to his second read quickly and throws a strike to an open WR who just finished his out route. good pass, then the WR runs through the guy covering him for a few yards

Dropback 8: play action, looks off coverage to the left and steps up to deliver a strong pass leading a wide open #8 down field on a post. 8 picks up 5 yards of YAC

Dropback 9: drop back from under center, stares down his receiver in single coverage the whole way...defender is backpedelling when 89 breaks left and Luck throws a good pass to open 89

Dropback 10: washington blitz. play action w/ no fake...play is designed for luck to turn around and find an open receiver to his right as the RB picks up a free blocker. luck gets rid of ball quickly but is under no pressure. WR runs 6 yard hitch route, DB playing off, luck throws pass well...maybe a little behind the WR but it makes it 100% his guy is catching it with no challenge, there is no YAC

Dropback 11: drops back, finds no one (looks like his first read stumbles), steps up in pocket like he's going to run which causes a DB to stumble then throws a good pass leading 89 on the run to get the first down and more. did not have a ton of pressure but if he holds the ball instead of stepping up might get sacked or at least hit. had the checkdown open to his RB short left but he was staring down the right side of the field

Dropback 12: playaction, throws back to the rb he faked it to. jumps to deliver pass over oncoming defender. not a difficult throw but one you'll see some QBs panic and screw up, rb runs for 10 yards

Run 2: Zone read, right decision to keep ball, picks up 5 yards before running into a defender his WR was blocking

Dropback 13: shotgun on 3rd and 7, throws ball to an open man 3 yards down field, does not pick up first. would like to see him throw past the first down marker here but they were up 28-0 so maybe best to take safe pass

Dropback 14: playaction that slow develops into a screen. luck is smooth and waits long enough before throwing and delivers a good pass. marecic with a beast run after catch to pick up first down

Dropback 15: drop back under center. i like how luck looks down to his rbs as if he's going to playaction fake but doesnt, comes up and throws a deep pass down field. bad pass, do not like how mechanical he looks throwing it either - when I watch him this type of pass is the one thing he doesn't look natural doing - ball hangs up too long and is underthrown. not as awful as the oregon INT but pretty bad. good play by the defender to knock it down - sometimes youll see a WR jump in front of a DB at the last second to pull a pass like this down but he did a decent job here. though if he doesnt just knock it down he mightve been able to pick it off

Run 3: Zone read, again good decision, tackled just short of first down after 8 yard run. tried to stiff arm his tackler but failed...fell forward

Dropback 16: shotgun, looks to left and holds onto ball. mason foster comes through unblocked on blitz and luck retreats backwards before throwing the ball into the ground in front of the rb. bad play, held onto ball a bit too long imo and got lucky he had a guy right there to ground it to

Dropback 17: shotgun on 3rd and long, fires a strike to a guy who comes open across the middle 5 yards down field. again would like him to throw past the first down marker here or wait for a better chance to pick up first.

Dropback 18: just realized the last drive had been near the end of the 2nd quarter. nevermind the criticism above. theyre going for it on 4th and 6 after letting the clock run down to 2 seconds. play is just a hail mary, i wouldve preferred luck to buy time to his right instead of left since he had 3 receivers on that side and just 1 on the left but whatever...he lofts up a jump ball which is intercepted in the end zone. in 15 years hail mary INTs like these probably dont even get counted in the box score

Dropback 19: drops back and hesitates before throwing a short completion. mediocre play, decent pass once he decides to throw it

Dropback 20: shotgun tunnel screen. goes down as a completion but is basically a run, receiver picked up like 1 yard

Dropback 21: shotgun on goal to go, throws quick pass to RB leaking out. well placed but RB can only pick up about 3 yards

Dropback 22: shotgun 3rd down on goal to go. looks like a designed screen in the middle of the field. i think luck shouldve waited just a bit longer before throwing it but if he did the oncoming defenders may have batted his pass down. receiver tackled immediately

Dropback 23: under center, you have to love the little nuances like how luck jabs a short fake before looking up field...pass is a post about 20 yards down field, either his 2nd read or he's looking off the safety. WR is wide open but luck throws it low. good adjustment and catch by WR, not the best pass for luck.

Dropback 24: playaction, washington coming with pressure, as luck turns around to look downfield he see the pressure coming and bails immediately, scrambles for 8 yards to the left

Run 4: naked bootleg. entire washington defense bites on the fake to the RB. luck runs for about 15 before being pushed OOB by a DB

Dropback 25: looks like the old TE falls down blocking, gets up and leaks out for a wide open TD pass on one side of the field while the qb and everyone else rolls to the opposite side of the field play. mason foster actually does a very good job reading it. the TE falls down because luck throws it behind him. if he threw it where the TE was running it's a pick 6. i think the blame falls on luck though, he didn't sell the play enough before turning around imo. another 2 steps before he turns and it should take foster out of the play.

Dropback 26: comes out of center, quick fake, drives a pass into #86 who has a defender draped on his back but 86 has him beat for the TD. quick release, well thrown, leads his receiver a bit and the throw is a tad high which really isn't necessary or preferred for that matter in the end zone but 86 goes up and catches it with his hands

Dropback 27: playaction, has 88 open with a lot of space to run on a deep out due to the fake. misses him. the play was open before it was designed to be but no excuses, luck just missed him here. very poor. he even had time to set his feet to make the throw and had no pressure. only upside is that he threw it in front of the receiver meaning the defender had no shot at the play.

final stats: 19/26 192yds 1 TD 1 INT (5 rush, 92 yds 1td)

stat line is fair I believe. the INT was meaningless since it was a halftime hail mary but he threw a couple poor passes that in the NFL might be pulled down by defenders.

overall I'm not sure how you can even attempt to argue that locker came close to his play in this game. luck was very efficient and made the plays necessary. his teammates were not perfect. nothing extraordinary in this game but he does a lot of little things that go unnoticed without closer inspection like looking off defenders or throwing passes with nfl-level anticipation as the route just breaks and a receiver comes open. in the nfl you want to be able to make things look easy and get high percentage plays, not constantly be having to lay in a perfect pass 40 yards down field. with that said, I really havent seen him make many of those perfect 40 yard passes and will say this is probably my biggest concern. he's going to have an adjustment period like any other rookie

as for washington's rush, I would say there were about 3 plays he had to deal with where he could have taken a sack in this game, i would estimate that a normal college QB would take 1, one that holds onto the ball too long wouldve taken 2, and he took 0.

jballa838
01-05-2011, 10:13 PM
my problem with the whole prospect comparison thing is:
A) aesthetics take precedence over anything else. Every black QB is compared to Vick or Leftwich because they are black, every white WR is compared to Brandon Stokley, etc.
B) The comparisons are not time-bound. Example: People compare Jake Locker to Steve Young, which could mean a plethora of things. Is it Steve Young the prospect, buc, superbowl champion, or what? Be more constructive with your feedback.
C) The comparison takes place with prospects that the comparing person was not actually evaluating more often than not. They go off the words written then, and not the film or play of the player back then, because the way the comparing person watched football was much different back then compared to now.

jballa838
01-05-2011, 10:18 PM
and on that Stanford/Washington game comparison, I had Locker's written up, but refrained to actually using it because of my personal biases and the completely different game both had to play. The Washington defenders had to respect the run, since they were down 21 quickly, something that Stanford defenders did not have to defend, allowing them to pin their ears back and pass rush Locker more aggressively. I'm glad it was done (Locker on page 4, Luck on page 5) and seeing it is totally awesome. Nice job to schitzophrenicbatman on that.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-05-2011, 10:27 PM
the game situation is a big reason why I hate those youtube cuts. For instance, I was so focused on pausing plays and analyzing things that I didn't even notice when Stanford was driving under 2 minutes at the end of the first half. having to make plays down 28-0 is a lot different too and stanford is not one of those teams that gets complacent when up big (in college a lot of times you see teams lose focus up 3+ scores).

djp
01-05-2011, 11:11 PM
Really don't see the Peyton Manning hype. Scott tweeted that Luck is the LeBron James of the NFL Draft.. I really don't see it. He's going to be good, probably very good, but... LeBron? Really?

FUNBUNCHER
01-06-2011, 03:50 AM
Really don't see the Peyton Manning hype. Scott tweeted that Luck is the LeBron James of the NFL Draft.. I really don't see it. He's going to be good, probably very good, but... LeBron? Really?

Leaf had better tools than Peyton, not by miles, but he was more mobile and had a bigger arm.
Peyton had EVERYTHING else over Leaf.
I've never thought Peyton had an 'elite' arm. IMO he has a quality NFL arm but IMO his arm strength is frequently overrated.

Comparing Luck to Lebron??
Luck doesn't have those kinds of tools; generational arm strength or freakish mobility.

And I don't think Luck is going to revolutionize the game. I don't know how he's going to respond to being hit behind a less than average Oline or how he's going to deal with adversity on the field. or the expectation that the entire offense rests on his shoulders.

I do think his accuracy is rare and his decision-making is unique. He's looks really advanced for a QB prospect.

jballa838
11-12-2011, 10:42 PM
Standing by this today. Damn it, why won't you all just believe me?! He's not as good as people want to pump him up to be.

Raiderz4Life
11-12-2011, 10:49 PM
Standing by this today. Damn it, why won't you all just believe me?! He's not as good as people want to pump him up to be.

Because he is still extremely good? Even if you take away all the hype.

SF Dolphin Fan
11-13-2011, 09:35 AM
One of the reason's his receivers are able to get wide open is that Luck does an excellent job using his eyes and looking off receivers. Got to give Luck some credit there.

Big Bird
11-13-2011, 11:47 AM
No surprise, some guy bumps his Luck hate thread after a game where his defense didn't show up and his receivers decided to drop every pass.

Congrats champ...

D-Unit
11-13-2011, 11:54 AM
No surprise, some guy bumps his Luck hate thread after a game where his defense didn't show up and his receivers decided to drop every pass.

Congrats champ...
To his credit, Luck's accuracy was pretty bad throughout. Maybe it was bad footing with the slippery grass. But he was definitely off.

FUNBUNCHER
11-13-2011, 12:01 PM
No surprise, some guy bumps his Luck hate thread after a game where his defense didn't show up and his receivers decided to drop every pass.

Congrats champ...

Andrew Luck showed up to play. The rest of their offense and D didn't.
How many fumbles did Stanford have?? 3? Four??

Babylon
11-13-2011, 12:11 PM
One of the reason's his receivers are able to get wide open is that Luck does an excellent job using his eyes and looking off receivers. Got to give Luck some credit there.

Not seeing a lot of receivers wide open to be honest. His wideouts, especially with Owusu out, are mediocre to poor in my opinion. His offensive line once a staple there is starting to show some cracks, outside of Martin and DeCastro.

bucfan12
11-13-2011, 04:02 PM
Is it just me, or does it seem when Luck plays a quality good team, he doesn't perform at an elite level like he's being hyped up to be? I didn't come away impressed last night at all.

SolidGold
11-13-2011, 04:23 PM
Is it just me, or does it seem when Luck plays a quality good team, he doesn't perform at an elite level like he's being hyped up to be? I didn't come away impressed last night at all.

There were quite a few drops by the Stanford receivers and for whatever reason they did not feel like changing their cleats to stop from slipping on the field.

I guess they all can't be worldbeaters like Josh Freeman.

Complex
11-13-2011, 04:28 PM
He did have a couple of terrible throws and missed a wide open Fleener(sp?).

bucfan12
11-13-2011, 04:28 PM
There were quite a few drops by the Stanford receivers and for whatever reason they did not feel like changing their cleats to stop from slipping on the field.

I guess they all can't be worldbeaters like Josh Freeman.

Hm...never said anything about Freeman, but whatever man.

The thing is: Luck is getting all this John Elway hype. He's underperformed against very good teams. That has to be a bit of a concern, don't you think?

Shane P. Hallam
11-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Hm...never said anything about Freeman, but whatever man.

The thing is: Luck is getting all this John Elway hype. He's underperformed against very good teams. That has to be a bit of a concern, don't you think?

Is it a concern? Yes. Does it make him not an elite prospect? No. John Elway had bad games against good teams. Heck, statistically Luck trumps Elway with a better completion percentage, more TDs, better QB Rating, and on pass for more yards. Luck still completed over 65% of his passes and got his team in position to score. Did he have bad throws? Yes, definitely. Point me to a QB who hasn't and I'll point right back at you calling you a liar.

Razor
11-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Hm...never said anything about Freeman, but whatever man.

The thing is: Luck is getting all this John Elway hype. He's underperformed against very good teams. That has to be a bit of a concern, don't you think?

How is putting up 30 points against a very good team underperforming? The defense gave up 53 ******* points! Why didn't they underperform? This **** about QB having to win every single ******* tough game to be considered elite is idiocy at its highest level. Luck is a very, very good QB prospect, and probably as good a prospect as I can remember at QB. Now, he's not perfect, I see some flaws in his game. But calling him out because his team lost 53-30 just isn't fair to the guy.

bucfan12
11-13-2011, 04:48 PM
Is it a concern? Yes. Does it make him not an elite prospect? No. John Elway had bad games against good teams. Heck, statistically Luck trumps Elway with a better completion percentage, more TDs, better QB Rating, and on pass for more yards. Luck still completed over 65% of his passes and got his team in position to score. Did he have bad throws? Yes, definitely. Point me to a QB who hasn't and I'll point right back at you calling you a liar.

Tell me this. How come he just beats on teams that aren't so good, but yet when he has to play a very good team (Oregon two years in a row) he struggles. I haven't seen a good performance against a quality team yet in his career.

I want to see him matched up with a team like Alabama in the BCS bowl game, if they get one. That could really show how elite of a prospect he is.

SolidGold
11-13-2011, 04:53 PM
Tell me this. How come he just beats on teams that aren't so good, but yet when he has to play a very good team (Oregon two years in a row) he struggles. I haven't seen a good performance against a quality team yet in his career.

I want to see him matched up with a team like Alabama in the BCS bowl game, if they get one. That could really show how elite of a prospect he is.

Did you see him shred VA Tech in the bowl game? How bout earlier this season when he led the come back vs USC?

Big Bird
11-13-2011, 04:58 PM
Tell me this. How come he just beats on teams that aren't so good, but yet when he has to play a very good team (Oregon two years in a row) he struggles. I haven't seen a good performance against a quality team yet in his career.

I want to see him matched up with a team like Alabama in the BCS bowl game, if they get one. That could really show how elite of a prospect he is.
Are you just talking out of your ass?

The only two ranked teams he has played this year, USC and Oregon, Luck has 601 Passing Yards, 69.1%, 7.4 YPA, 7 Total TD's, and 3 Interceptions. For playing against ranked teams, that puts him 11th in Completion Percentage, 17th in Yards Per Attempt, 8th in Passing Touchdowns (6), 10th in QB Rating, and 10th in Yards Per Game.

All that is bad? I guess Matt Barkley is garbage in big games because he is completing 65% of his passes against ranked teams.

bucfan12
11-13-2011, 04:59 PM
Did you see him shred VA Tech in the bowl game? How bout earlier this season when he led the come back vs USC?

Va Tech? You mean a team that barely won a weak ACC last year? Pifft.

USC? They're not what they used to be pal. And I've seen several reports say Barkely outplayed him in that one.

Big Bird
11-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Va Tech? You mean a team that barely won a weak ACC last year? Pifft.

USC? They're not what they used to be pal. And I've seen several reports say Barkely outplayed him in that one.
Va Tech? You mean the team that allowed a 52.2 completion percentage last season, good for 6th in the Nation, that Andrew Luck completed 78.3% of his passes against? And that completion percentage for Va Tech was AFTER Luck tore them apart.

So you admit that you didn't watch the Stanford-USC game, since you have no actual opinion on how the two QB's fared against each other.

Why do you even post?

FUNBUNCHER
11-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Um, newsflash. You take Luck off Stanford and they aren't a very good football team.

Maybe .500. Maybe one game over. Luck had a 'B' game IMO against Oregon.
The entire Stanford football team brought their 'D' game.

No revelations that were learned about Luck last night, except that he's not a football cyborg and needs some help to win games.

BTW, the strength of Va Tech last season was their secondary, most of whom will be in the NFL in a few years. Luck embarrassed that crew, to a man.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
11-13-2011, 05:23 PM
Tell me this. How come he just beats on teams that aren't so good, but yet when he has to play a very good team (Oregon two years in a row) he struggles. I haven't seen a good performance against a quality team yet in his career.

I want to see him matched up with a team like Alabama in the BCS bowl game, if they get one. That could really show how elite of a prospect he is.

Oregon scored just about every time they had the ball. Stanford doesn't have the athletes to keep up with that kind of scoring.

Cardinal96
11-13-2011, 05:29 PM
I am not sure if you put Aaron Rodgers behind center for Stanford yesterday that they win that game. Luck was the best player on the field. His receivers were getting very little separation. Stanford lost because Oregon is a much deeper and more talented team.

Also Jonathan Martin got beat a few times yesterday. I think DeCastro is a much better offensive lineman (though he still may get drafted behind Martin as he plays the guard position).

SolidGold
11-13-2011, 05:42 PM
Watching that game I still come away baffled about the Stanford players slipping all over the place, does anyone know if they changed cleats or anything? How were they so unprepared on their home field? Oregon had no trouble.

kalbears13
11-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Watching that game I still come away baffled about the Stanford players slipping all over the place, does anyone know if they changed cleats or anything? How were they so unprepared on their home field? Oregon had no trouble.

I wish they were in different divisions so they could play each other again in the pac-12 championship. Instead we get to watch Oregon destroy UCLA or ASU. I can't believe Stanford wouldn't change their cleats. Toilolo was slipping every play.

Big Bird
11-13-2011, 06:13 PM
I am not sure if you put Aaron Rodgers behind center for Stanford yesterday that they win that game. Luck was the best player on the field. His receivers were getting very little separation. Stanford lost because Oregon is a much deeper and more talented team.

Also Jonathan Martin got beat a few times yesterday. I think DeCastro is a much better offensive lineman (though he still may get drafted behind Martin as he plays the guard position).
I've always held this sentiment. Martin is overrated. Rieff and Kalil are much better prospects.

Babylon
11-13-2011, 06:53 PM
I've always held this sentiment. Martin is overrated. Rieff and Kalil are much better prospects.

I tend to agree although i think Martin is pretty good.

Stanford really miss Shane Skov and the WR Owusu. They played Oregon pretty well at the line of scrimage but couldnt match up in the secondary.

soybean
11-13-2011, 07:01 PM
Um, newsflash. You take Luck off Stanford and they aren't a very good football team.


dude you're right. I don't think ive ever seen a good team that didnt have a quarterback.

LookItsAlDavis
11-13-2011, 09:29 PM
Is it a concern? Yes. Does it make him not an elite prospect? No. John Elway had bad games against good teams. Heck, statistically Luck trumps Elway with a better completion percentage, more TDs, better QB Rating, and on pass for more yards. Luck still completed over 65% of his passes and got his team in position to score. Did he have bad throws? Yes, definitely. Point me to a QB who hasn't and I'll point right back at you calling you a liar.

Please don't use stats to compare a prospect who was drafted in 1983 to one who will be picked in 2012.

Shane P. Hallam
11-13-2011, 09:53 PM
Please don't use stats to compare a prospect who was drafted in 1983 to one who will be picked in 2012.

It wasn't an argument to say Luck is better or worse than Elway, it was argument to basically say that no one is perfect.

FUNBUNCHER
11-14-2011, 12:51 AM
dude you're right. I don't think ive ever seen a good team that didnt have a quarterback.


You mean like LSU and Alabama??

Iamcanadian
11-14-2011, 08:13 PM
Gee, imagine, I thought the OC and HC decided in college which plays to call and the QB just carries out their game plan.
You are watching and noting the wrong stats, they tell you zero about Luck's ability just like those who complained about the system Newton was in.
I don't know what kind of pro Luck will be, nobody does, but as a PROSPECT, he is a once in a generation type with everything a QB needs to succeed at the next level and he will be the #1 overall pick in the draft because pro scouts and GM's love his game and ceiling.

LonghornsLegend
11-14-2011, 08:23 PM
Tell me this. How come he just beats on teams that aren't so good, but yet when he has to play a very good team (Oregon two years in a row) he struggles. I haven't seen a good performance against a quality team yet in his career.

I want to see him matched up with a team like Alabama in the BCS bowl game, if they get one. That could really show how elite of a prospect he is.

I don't know. Ask Peyton Manning why he could never beat Florida. Because not accomplishing that obviously made him a worse NFL QB right?


Have you even seen the skill position players for Stanford or are you just looking to see who won on Sportscenter? They do not match up well with a team like Oregon all over the field, they are twice as fast and it's not even close. Stanford isn't built like that, if you watched that game it was obvious.


They wouldn't have one skill position player to get open vs Bama. That wouldn't be his fault when it's time to throw and nobody has gotten any seperation.

JRTPlaya21
11-14-2011, 08:37 PM
Lol at that quality opponent comment. The Luck haters never stop.

murdamal86
11-15-2011, 12:58 PM
I don't know. Ask Peyton Manning why he could never beat Florida. Because not accomplishing that obviously made him a worse NFL QB right?


Have you even seen the skill position players for Stanford or are you just looking to see who won on Sportscenter? They do not match up well with a team like Oregon all over the field, they are twice as fast and it's not even close. Stanford isn't built like that, if you watched that game it was obvious.


They wouldn't have one skill position player to get open vs Bama. That wouldn't be his fault when it's time to throw and nobody has gotten any seperation.


I'm not silly and I know exactly what you mean as far as the lack of talent level he has on offense but why is that he's excluded from "criticism" when he's facing "overmatched" teams but it's ok to grade him when he's playing teams that below or equal to Stanford's talent level? It's like how he looked Saturday is thrown out because "oh Stanford doesn't have the same talent level as Oregon" but when he's beasting against Washington State it's all good?

Babylon
11-15-2011, 01:43 PM
I don't know. Ask Peyton Manning why he could never beat Florida. Because not accomplishing that obviously made him a worse NFL QB right?


Have you even seen the skill position players for Stanford or are you just looking to see who won on Sportscenter? They do not match up well with a team like Oregon all over the field, they are twice as fast and it's not even close. Stanford isn't built like that, if you watched that game it was obvious.


They wouldn't have one skill position player to get open vs Bama. That wouldn't be his fault when it's time to throw and nobody has gotten any seperation.

Agree. With Owusu out, and he isnt even close to NFL caliber in my opinion, their receivers are borderline lousy. He does have probably the best TE in the country in Fleener but that's about it. Of course i made the same argument about Jake Locker who didnt even have a TE so maybe i'm just differant.

dannyz
11-15-2011, 03:34 PM
Why is Andrew Luck getting faulted because his team sucks? I seen he got passed by Weeden on the Heisman poll and that is just stupid. Did Andrew Luck have his best game? No but he at least put them in position to Win while his Receivers including Fleener were dropping passes, the defense could not tackle and the whole Stanford team was slipping on their own field while Oregon did not slip at all really.

bucfan12
11-15-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm not silly and I know exactly what you mean as far as the lack of talent level he has on offense but why is that he's excluded from "criticism" when he's facing "overmatched" teams but it's ok to grade him when he's playing teams that below or equal to Stanford's talent level? It's like how he looked Saturday is thrown out because "oh Stanford doesn't have the same talent level as Oregon" but when he's beasting against Washington State it's all good?

Thank you. People are annointing him as the best QB in the NFL within a few years, but honestly, I need to see a quality performance against a quality team to make him the best prospect in years, like so many have claimed.

Iamcanadian
11-15-2011, 05:53 PM
Thank you. People are annointing him as the best QB in the NFL within a few years, but honestly, I need to see a quality performance against a quality team to make him the best prospect in years, like so many have claimed.

Well Charley Casserly said he talked to 5 NFL GM's and they said he was the best prospect they had see since Elway. So you had better get used to the idea. Nobody is saying he will dominate as a pro only that he has that potential as a prospect.

TACKLE
11-15-2011, 06:25 PM
Nobody is saying he will dominate as a pro only that he has that potential as a prospect.

Are you making false statements on purpose?

dannyz
11-22-2011, 07:33 PM
Might as well keep all Andrew Luck news in here rather than making a new thread. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_direct_snap__andrew_luck_nfl_draft_112211 So pretty much just confirms what we all knew he would enter the Draft.

FUNBUNCHER
11-22-2011, 08:46 PM
Boise State never uses inferior talent as an excuse.
The problem is Stanford runs an offense that doesn't adapt to their lack of pure skill position talent.
They line up most of the time and expect their WRs, oline and TEs to out execute the man covering them which isn't going to happen against elite teams.

If Stanford ran a conventional spread scheme like Texas Tech, I think the Cardinal would put up 50 ppg.
But then Andrew Luck would not be a consensus greatest QB prospect in over a generation.

SolidGold
11-22-2011, 09:04 PM
Boise State never uses inferior talent as an excuse.
The problem is Stanford runs an offense that doesn't adapt to their lack of pure skill position talent.
They line up most of the time and expect their WRs, oline and TEs to out execute the man covering them which isn't going to happen against elite teams.

If Stanford ran a conventional spread scheme like Texas Tech, I think the Cardinal would put up 50 ppg.
But then Andrew Luck would not be a consensus greatest QB prospect in over a generation.

It's a real catch 22 with Luck. If he was putting up huge numbers in a spread offense he would be criticized for being a spread QB. He is putting up huge numbers in a traditional pro style offense and now media pundits have Griffin over him in the Heisman. Luck is getting penalized for not having the style points and playing in some offense that lets him throw 40-50 times a game.

cajuncorey
11-22-2011, 10:41 PM
i think he compares favourably to jake locker. people got an extra year to look at him and they are going to overanalyze him and realize hes not peyton manning. hes just another jake locker... a guy that has an average arm and good accuracy and has the ability to run. a top 15 pick. the suck for luck compaign is rediculous.

kalbears13
11-22-2011, 11:02 PM
i think he compares favourably to jake locker. people got an extra year to look at him and they are going to overanalyze him and realize hes not peyton manning. hes just another jake locker... a guy that has an average arm and good accuracy and has the ability to run. a top 15 pick. the suck for luck compaign is rediculous.

Jake Locker had a good arm and average accuracy if anything...

ElectricEye
11-22-2011, 11:04 PM
I really can't think of two prospects less similar...even though I like them both. Locker was all about potential, Luck is all about polish.

niel89
11-22-2011, 11:37 PM
Honestly Luck is not like Locker at all. Luck is considerably more polished and Locker had a better arm. Terrible comparison.

soybean
11-23-2011, 12:45 AM
The thing you have to like about Luck is: watch the way he surveys the field on each of this throws. Granted he won't have all the time he did behind this oline tht he will facing NFL DTs and DEs but it's promising to know that he doesn't force the throw on his first read.

the negative however, is a couple errors of judgement and poor decision making. the interception (almost pick 6) and the (almost fumble) were pretty bad plays.

I like his feet, his stature and how he looks at the whole field before he throws the ball.

cRaBCb4xNg8

kalbears13
11-23-2011, 01:23 AM
The thing you have to like about Luck is: watch the way he surveys the field on each of this throws. Granted he won't have all the time he did behind this oline tht he will facing NFL DTs and DEs but it's promising to know that he doesn't force the throw on his first read.

the negative however, is a couple errors of judgement and poor decision making. the interception (almost pick 6) and the (almost fumble) were pretty bad plays.

I like his feet, his stature and how he looks at the whole field before he throws the ball.

cRaBCb4xNg8

Probably one of my favorite throws at 2:20. How quickly he went to his read, saw that it was open, the decision to throw it, the quick release, and accuracy. This is why he's regarded so highly.

Vb97U0t0dyA

EDIT: Upon further review it looks like it was designed to go to Fleener but it's still a great play imo.