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View Full Version : Von Miller - The Real Deal?


JustDezIT
01-20-2011, 08:15 PM
How good is this guy? Where do you guys project him to go? Scouting report? I haven't seen much of him so any info is appreciated. I find it interesting Scott has him as the 9th best prospect.

Can he play OLB in a 34 aswell as ILB? If true that's great versatility. D coordinator dream.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

GB12
01-20-2011, 08:28 PM
I think he's going to be a huge bust, especially in a 3-4. NFL offensive tackles will have there way with him.

cajuncorey
01-20-2011, 08:32 PM
looks like he could be comparable to lawerence timmons. hes quite a boom or bust. hes VERY athletic and if unblocked he will get to the QB. but at this point i dont think hes #9 material

87Canes
01-20-2011, 08:36 PM
This guy is extremely fast off the edge but he has NO MOVES. He tried to blow by everyone in college and once they finally realized that's all he has, he became blockable.

Didn't he go like a ton of games without a sack this year? I label him a BUST!!! Will measure and time well but his lack of moves will hurt him.

TACKLE
01-20-2011, 08:39 PM
looks like he could be comparable to lawerence timmons. hes quite a boom or bust. hes VERY athletic and if unblocked he will get to the QB. but at this point i dont think hes #9 material

I like this comparison as well.

I don't care for him as a 3-4 OLB. He's got good size, he's aggressive and is a great athlete but I wouldn't count on him being able to get a consistent pass rush. He's a one trick pony who has no power and no counter moves. Where I do like him is as a WLB in an aggressive 4-3 defense or possibly as an ILB in a 3-4.

descendency
01-20-2011, 09:26 PM
43 WLB.

If he's unblocked, he can explode.

When he's blocked, he has among the worst counter moves in college FB.

He's very good in zone coverage.

Has solid instincts.

I have a mid to late 2nd round grade on him because I don't think he can shed blockers or tackle. He's a little on the light side and his core strength is abysmal in my opinion. Can't bull-rush well. Can't hold the edge.

That said, in the right system, he may explode. In the wrong system, he'll waste 3-4 years.

Maybe you could give him a first round grade if you feel you can play him in the right system.

BaLLiN
01-20-2011, 09:32 PM
Where do you guys think he'll go? Late second round?

descendency
01-20-2011, 09:33 PM
Where do you guys think he'll go? Late second round?

After the combine, i think most people will have him as a top 10 lock. The guy has great physical skills. So, I'm going top 10.

edit: I just want to make this clear, I think he will fly up boards after the combine, but whether he should or not is another debate and one I clearly don't think the answer is yes.

BaLLiN
01-20-2011, 09:39 PM
After the combine, i think most people will have him as a top 10 lock. The guy has great physical skills. So, I'm going top 10.

edit: I just want to make this clear, I think he will fly up boards after the combine, but whether he should or not is another debate and one I clearly don't think the answer is yes.

oh gee, i didnt even think he would be that high last year. Then again this is definitely a weaker class overall. I still think he would be toward the later spots of the first round with the boom or bust factor coupled with the lack of production (he was injured apparently).

A Perfect Score
01-20-2011, 09:49 PM
Von Miller is what Aaron Maybin would have been had he gone back to school. I really don't like him as a pro prospect.

JHL6719
01-20-2011, 10:33 PM
I think Miller is definitely the real deal. He didn't go a ton of games without getting a sack as someone mentioned.

The only games he didn't manage to get any sacks was really only the first 4 games when he was battling through the ankle injury. He managed to rack up 10 sacks and 16 TFL's in the remaining 9 games.

He was unstoppable against Oklahoma and showed how physical he can be in stopping the run when he managed to stop the Sooners twice that game with goalline stands. Firing off the ball low, slipping blocks, and stuffing DeMarco Murray in the backfield.

The only real competition he has in the 1st round is Justin Houston, who managed to go 6 games this year without a sack. And if you watched Houston against Georgia Tech, he didn't look good to me trying to stop that triple option attack.

Reminded me of how bad Sean Weatherspoon looked last year trying to stop that triple option attack of Navy's in the bowl game.

Von Miller runs some of the best offensive tackles flat out ragged trying to stop him, including Russell Okung last year.

To me, Von Miller is the real deal. Nobody can match his speed, burst, acceleration, athleticism, first step, and snap anticipation. All he needs is to learn some counter moves.... but so did Brian Orakpo coming out of college.

He'll tear the combine up. I'm curious to see what his shuttle times are going to be... I have a feeling they could be legendary. His COD skills are insane.

D-Unit
01-20-2011, 11:03 PM
I want Von Miller on the Cowboys at #9. I guess that's why JustDez posted this thread. Absolutely love him and think he would be insane in Rob Ryan's defense. Put him at ILB or OLB, mix it up, disguise where the blitz is coming from. The guy is simply a weapon. I bet he'll run the fastest LB timed 40. His COD skills are incredible as already mentioned, his ability to drop back in coverage is good, but his closing speed is what impresses me most.

I think he's got work to do against the run, as he's been prone to over run the play or rush too far outside leaving an inside lane open. But yeah, I like him as a 3-4 ILB... or OLB.

prock
01-20-2011, 11:15 PM
No comment on my opinion of Von, but in multiple posts in this thread people said that he is awesome if unblocked. I could be awesome if unblocked. What a stupid point to make.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 12:20 AM
He's a perfect strong side rush linebacker. I suppose he could play the strong side MLB in a 4-3, but it wouldn't be his most natural fit.

Put him on the right side of the field, he's the kind of guy that could drop back or rush the passer. Think James Harrison (without the attitude) or DeMarcus Ware (but shorter). He's #10 in my wishlist of the available overall talent.

descendency
01-21-2011, 12:20 AM
No comment on my opinion of Von, but in multiple posts in this thread people said that he is awesome if unblocked. I could be awesome if unblocked. What a stupid point to make.

You're right. You should also include his quickness makes him hard to block.

PossibleCabbage
01-21-2011, 12:38 AM
Honestly, we're have a much better sense of how well he'll stack up against NFL OTs after we get his combine numbers. I'm not that concerned about the fact that he hasn't showed great technique in college, technique is something you can teach. Remember the 2009 draft, Everette Brown had great technique as a pass rusher, while Clay Matthews did not. Who's the better pass rusher now?

I think if Miller has the physical tools, he seems to have the attitude that will allow him to be a successful NFL pass-rusher if he hooks onto a good teacher.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 12:39 AM
You're right. You should also include his quickness makes him hard to block.

Exactly. He's 6-2, 260 coming out of college? And he has the ability to not only rush the passer, but the athleticism to drop into coverage and the willingness to stop the run? That's a sure-fire top 15 talent if I've ever heard one.

fenikz
01-21-2011, 12:57 AM
I want Von Miller on the Cowboys at #9. I guess that's why JustDez posted this thread. Absolutely love him and think he would be insane in Rob Ryan's defense. Put him at ILB or OLB, mix it up, disguise where the blitz is coming from. The guy is simply a weapon. I bet he'll run the fastest LB timed 40. His COD skills are incredible as already mentioned, his ability to drop back in coverage is good, but his closing speed is what impresses me most.

I think he's got work to do against the run, as he's been prone to over run the play or rush too far outside leaving an inside lane open. But yeah, I like him as a 3-4 ILB... or OLB.

if you listen to UNC fans he stands no chance i believe Reality Check had both Carter and Quinn running 4.4

plus it does seem like Moch has legit 4.3 speed

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 01:01 AM
if you listen to UNC fans he stands no chance i believe Reality Check had both Carter and Quinn running 4.4

plus it does seem like Moch has legit 4.3 speed

I care? Rolando McClain was drafted in the mid first by the Raiders and he had a HORRID 40 time. That didn't stop the Raiders from picking a straight beast in McClain. And he's had a great rookie year. Moch reminds me SOOOOOOOO much of Vernon Gholston.

fenikz
01-21-2011, 01:06 AM
was never talking to you

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 01:16 AM
was never talking to you

Its a message board. Get use to it. If you want to rate all your prospects by how fast they can run in a straight line, go ahead. Not my preferred way of scouting.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 01:22 AM
was never talking to you

You should draft Donta Moch in the first. Let me know how that goes for you.

descendency
01-21-2011, 01:35 AM
Exactly. He's 6-2, 260 coming out of college? And he has the ability to not only rush the passer, but the athleticism to drop into coverage and the willingness to stop the run? That's a sure-fire top 15 talent if I've ever heard one.

6'2" 240 if he's lucky.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 01:41 AM
Whatever...I'm saying he'll be at least 250 by the time he's drafted. And lose none of his athleticism. Am I wrong to assume that? You tell me.

descendency
01-21-2011, 01:53 AM
Whatever...I'm saying he'll be at least 250 by the time he's drafted. And lose none of his athleticism. Am I wrong to assume that? You tell me.

Putting on 10-15 pounds without losing athleticism isn't unheard of.

FUNBUNCHER
01-21-2011, 01:57 AM
Exactly. He's 6-2, 260 coming out of college? And he has the ability to not only rush the passer, but the athleticism to drop into coverage and the willingness to stop the run? That's a sure-fire top 15 talent if I've ever heard one.

Where'd you get 260# from??

If Von is 240# at the combine, I'll be stunned. I think he can get bigger, but I also believe Miller played in the 230-235# range at Texas A&M.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 02:07 AM
Stunned? Especially now, in this modern era...you'll be stunned? Okay. I guess we'll see.

Clarkw267
01-21-2011, 02:25 AM
I care? Rolando McClain was drafted in the mid first by the Raiders and he had a HORRID 40 time. That didn't stop the Raiders from picking a straight beast in McClain. And he's had a great rookie year. Moch reminds me SOOOOOOOO much of Vernon Gholston.

Hey try reading through the thread before you start spouting off...

The guy was responding to D-Unit saying he bets Miller runs the fastest 40 time of the LBs. With a guy like Moch that's pretty unlikely. Noone ever said they thought Moch was better than Miller, and noone ever brought up Rolando McClain.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 02:34 AM
Simmer down, buddy. Its what you draw out of the conversation.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 02:44 AM
Hey try reading through the thread before you start spouting off...

The guy was responding to D-Unit saying he bets Miller runs the fastest 40 time of the LBs. With a guy like Moch that's pretty unlikely. Noone ever said they thought Moch was better than Miller, and noone ever brought up Rolando McClain.

So I'm the bad guy now? Okay. Whatever floats your boat.

fenikz
01-21-2011, 03:11 AM
clearly you have a boner for Miller and it's stopping the blood flow to your brain

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 03:18 AM
Alright then. Good for you.

jsa230
01-21-2011, 03:19 AM
Where do you guys think he'll go? Late second round? Thats probably where he should go, but im sure he will go in the first. The faster he runs the higher he will be drafted. If he runs 4.4 at 250 he could sneak into the top 10.

ellsy82
01-21-2011, 03:25 AM
We disagree. At least, he's a top 25 guy.

jsa230
01-21-2011, 03:31 AM
We disagree. At least, he's a top 25 guy.
I never said he wasnt going to be drafted in the top 25.

Shy so werious

1funguy
01-21-2011, 07:54 AM
One trick pony.

LizardState
01-21-2011, 08:07 AM
43 WLB.

If he's unblocked, he can explode.

When he's blocked, he has among the worst counter moves in college FB.

He's very good in zone coverage.

Has solid instincts.

I have a mid to late 2nd round grade on him because I don't think he can shed blockers or tackle. He's a little on the light side and his core strength is abysmal in my opinion. Can't bull-rush well. Can't hold the edge.

That said, in the right system, he may explode. In the wrong system, he'll waste 3-4 years.

Maybe you could give him a first round grade if you feel you can play him in the right system.

Agree, best fit is 3-4 OLB.

He's streaky & that's diminished his perceived value going into this season when he was listed by almost everybody as best at his position, he's had awful games & completely dominant ones, like vs. Texas when he had multiple tackles all over the field, an INT & sacks. It was a hell of a finish to his season, then he got blocked for the most part vs. that superior LSU OL.

Many mocks have him going to the Texans in the 1st rd, where they hired Wade Phillips the 3-4 guru, & are supposed to be converting from the traditional 4-3. Their former #1 pick overall Mario Williams excels in the 4-3, as does ILB Demeco Ryans who's coming off knee surgery, that could jeopardize their proven strengths so a 3-4 there isn't a done deal, Phillips will likely customize it to make use of their talent & maximize Miller at OLB, moving him around to leave him free on passing downs & rush the passer like Dallas does with Ware. IDK how he'll be successful if he has to go against NFL-quality OTs on 4 out of 4 downs though.

EDIT: a lot of his early season problems this year were due to an injury He was awful the first six weeks, then played like 09 once the injuries healed. His best games were during the toughest part of the TAMU schedule; OU, Nebraska, Baylor, & dominant at Texas.

Kiper has Miller going at #10 overall at this time. He led the nation in sacks in 09 and was being keyed on & dbl-teamed much of the season. He was instrumental in the three goalline stands vs. the formidable Sooners, making TFLsat the goal line on RUNNING plays 3 of the 4 downs in the final stand, so he isn't just a speed rush LB.

Scott Wright
01-21-2011, 08:23 AM
Stay tuned for a surprise with Von Miller when I release my new mock draft on Saturday...

1funguy
01-21-2011, 08:26 AM
Stay tuned for a surprise with Von Miller when I release my new mock draft on Saturday...

Tease. :-D

A Perfect Score
01-21-2011, 08:53 AM
Stay tuned for a surprise with Von Miller when I release my new mock draft on Saturday...

Much higher or much lower then we expect?

Babylon
01-21-2011, 11:39 AM
Agree, best fit is 3-4 OLB.

He's streaky & that's diminished his perceived value going into this season when he was listed by almost everybody as best at his position, he's had awful games & completely dominant ones, like vs. Texas when he had multiple tackles all over the field, an INT & sacks. It was a hell of a finish to his season, then he got blocked for the most part vs. that superior LSU OL.

Many mocks have him going to the Texans in the 1st rd, where they hired Wade Phillips the 3-4 guru, & are supposed to be converting from the traditional 4-3. Their former #1 pick overall Mario Williams excels in the 4-3, as does ILB Demeco Ryans who's coming off knee surgery, that could jeopardize their proven strengths so a 3-4 there isn't a done deal, Phillips will likely customize it to make use of their talent & maximize Miller at OLB, moving him around to leave him free on passing downs & rush the passer like Dallas does with Ware. IDK how he'll be successful if he has to go against NFL-quality OTs on 4 out of 4 downs though.

If Houston doesnt get a secondary that can stop the deep ball it probably doesnt matter what else they do.

Personally i would take Mason Foster over Miller, can get him later and i think he'll be a better player.

brat316
01-21-2011, 12:10 PM
On the athlete he is, he'll go in the second round. But every play he rushes the passer, he tries so hard to go at a wide loop, trying to be untouched. He has a problem working off blocks and traffic. Either he needs to be coached or he doesn't have the strength to go into the body of a OT and push the OT in while going around. Thats why he takes such a big loop around, avoid being touched. Look at this video.

qoQII6vrPHE

You can see when he goes inside he gets stone walled.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 12:19 PM
Stay tuned for a surprise with Von Miller when I release my new mock draft on Saturday...
It's Saturday in Japan... NOW RELEASE THAT MOCK!!!! I can't wait!!!!!!!!

MILLER TO THE COWBOYS AT #9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 12:28 PM
If Houston doesnt get a secondary that can stop the deep ball it probably doesnt matter what else they do.

Personally i would take Mason Foster over Miller, can get him later and i think he'll be a better player.
Homer Alert!

A Perfect Score
01-21-2011, 12:28 PM
Homer Alert!

Not really. Mason Foster might not be the athlete Miller is, but he's a better linebacker at this point.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 12:29 PM
clearly you have a boner for Miller and it's stopping the blood flow to your brain
I think that's what happened to me when I said he'd be the fastest timed LB.

haha. I won't lie!

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 12:32 PM
Not really. Mason Foster might not be the athlete Miller is, but he's a better linebacker at this point.
We'll have to agree to disagree... but I'm in Dick Butkus' camp on this one.

Von Miller - 2010 Dick Butkus Award Winner. More than double the amount of votes from the 2nd place finisher. ;)

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 12:34 PM
On the athlete he is, he'll go in the second round. But every play he rushes the passer, he tries so hard to go at a wide loop, trying to be untouched. He has a problem working off blocks and traffic. Either he needs to be coached or he doesn't have the strength to go into the body of a OT and push the OT in while going around. Thats why he takes such a big loop around, avoid being touched. Look at this video.

qoQII6vrPHE

You can see when he goes inside he gets stone walled.
What? Are you saying all he does is go wide and he never gets a sack going up the middle? Oh my gosh... I swear... some people watch 1 highlight clip from 1 game to base their entire opinions on players way too often.

brat316
01-21-2011, 12:49 PM
What? Are you saying all he does is go wide and he never gets a sack going up the middle? Oh my gosh... I swear... some people watch 1 highlight clip from 1 game to base their entire opinions on players way too often.

No, I"m sorry. Its one of the main things he does though. He is very gifted and a good very good pass rusher, if untouched. He is a very good athlete, I just don't see him as a edge rusher in the NFL. Maybe WLb like some suggested. Also it wasn't a highlight tape.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 01:07 PM
No, I"m sorry. Its one of the main things he does though. He is very gifted and a good very good pass rusher, if untouched. He is a very good athlete, I just don't see him as a edge rusher in the NFL. Maybe WLb like some suggested. Also it wasn't a highlight tape.
Why if "untouched"? I don't think you really understand him. He's not a stranger to fighting off blocks. You don't get as many TFLs as he has accummulated by not fighting off blocks. It's not like all of those TFLs are sacks. His ability to fight off blocks and get to the RB in the backfield is severely overlooked because people have tunnel vision being locked onto his sack stats.

FUNBUNCHER
01-21-2011, 01:12 PM
Miller is just a playmaker, forget his sacks.

He's very instinctive and has a 'nose for the football'. His sacks are really just gravy because he's more than just a pass rushing specialist.
My only questions about him are how big is he really and is he strong enough right now to be an impact player as a rookie??

descendency
01-21-2011, 01:58 PM
I know a lot of people on this board won't agree, but I see a huge potential that he's another Aaron Maybin. Both were seriously undersized pass rushers who could not hold the run at all. I think Von Miller has some advantages over him having played in a 34 already (instincts), but I really really worry that he's just not going to be anywhere near the same in the pros.

Dontay Moch also scares me quite a bit.

cajuncorey
01-21-2011, 02:02 PM
No comment on my opinion of Von, but in multiple posts in this thread people said that he is awesome if unblocked. I could be awesome if unblocked. What a stupid point to make.

no you couldnt you prolly run like 7.6 40 time

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 02:10 PM
Miller is just a playmaker, forget his sacks.

He's very instinctive and has a 'nose for the football'. His sacks are really just gravy because he's more than just a pass rushing specialist.
My only questions about him are how big is he really and is he strong enough right now to be an impact player as a rookie??
I've seen his weight listed between the 235 to 245. I would bet it's somewhere in between.

PossibleCabbage
01-21-2011, 02:13 PM
I know a lot of people on this board won't agree, but I see a huge potential that he's another Aaron Maybin. Both were seriously undersized pass rushers who could not hold the run at all. I think Von Miller has some advantages over him having played in a 34 already (instincts), but I really really worry that he's just not going to be anywhere near the same in the pros.

Dontay Moch also scares me quite a bit.

I think that 34 OLB is just one of those positions that has a really high bust potential. A lot of people end up taken in the first round to play that position, and it certainly doesn't take right away and it may not actually take. I mean, the Jets had Vernon Gholston put on weight to see if he could play 5-tech, that's how worthless he was as an OLB.

I think a large part of it is just mental, it's a hard adjustment to make for a lot of guys. So somebody with previous 34 experience definitely has a big leg up, but there haven't been enough college teams with top prospects who run a 34 for long enough to really get a sense if that helps.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 02:20 PM
I know a lot of people on this board won't agree, but I see a huge potential that he's another Aaron Maybin. Both were seriously undersized pass rushers who could not hold the run at all. I think Von Miller has some advantages over him having played in a 34 already (instincts), but I really really worry that he's just not going to be anywhere near the same in the pros.

Dontay Moch also scares me quite a bit.
Maybin was one of those Mike Mamula workout warriors. The Bills fell in love with his six pack and it was over. Maybin's game was never on par with Miller's. I don't draw the comparison at all. You need to expand on that one. They're not even similar in size, body type or body movement. Maybin is stiff. He moves like a body builder. Miller is quick, fluid and agile. Instincts and ability to drop back in coverage are also on another level. Your comparison is just waaaaay off. Miller does need to improve on recognizing the run more, but his ability to fight off blocks and get to the RB isn't a notable weakness as you are making it out to sound like.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 02:30 PM
I think that 34 OLB is just one of those positions that has a really high bust potential. A lot of people end up taken in the first round to play that position, and it certainly doesn't take right away and it may not actually take. I mean, the Jets had Vernon Gholston put on weight to see if he could play 5-tech, that's how worthless he was as an OLB.

I think a large part of it is just mental, it's a hard adjustment to make for a lot of guys. So somebody with previous 34 experience definitely has a big leg up, but there haven't been enough college teams with top prospects who run a 34 for long enough to really get a sense if that helps.
That's true. Look at Larry English, Robert Ayers, Manny Lawson, Kamerion Wimbley... These guys haven't lived up to expectations.. yet at least.

But sack masters in college do tend to translate well to the NFL. See Terrell Suggs, Elvis Dumervil, Lamarr Woodley... So that's a key to look at, imo.

Also, the fact that Von Miller played in the 3-4 as a Jack LB at A&M also puts him at an advantage if he gets drafted by a team that runs the 34.

prock
01-21-2011, 02:50 PM
No, I"m sorry. Its one of the main things he does though. He is very gifted and a good very good pass rusher, if untouched. He is a very good athlete, I just don't see him as a edge rusher in the NFL. Maybe WLb like some suggested. Also it wasn't a highlight tape.

I already had a post in this thread about people saying **** like this. Read this bolded statement again. And then read it again. Do you understand how ******* ******** this statement is yet?

xxxxxxxx
01-21-2011, 03:18 PM
no you couldnt you prolly run like 7.6 40 time

I run a 4.4, I would be just fine unblocked. It is not a valid point at all.

prock
01-21-2011, 04:51 PM
no you couldnt you prolly run like 7.6 40 time

Is it possible to run that slow? I could probably crab walk that. And even if that is slight hyperbole, you get the point. And I am glad to see your ad hominem.

Fred Savage
01-21-2011, 05:32 PM
I think he is overrated. Would rather take Justin Houston over Miller. However, I am not a scout, just an average fan.

FUNBUNCHER
01-21-2011, 05:48 PM
I think he is overrated. Would rather take Justin Houston over Miller. However, I am not a scout, just an average fan.

Agreed about Houston. I think he's the early impact player at OLB in this draft. Physically he's there, has the strength of a DE and is a terror rushing the QB.

IMO he's somewhere between Orakpo and Clay Matthews III as a prospect.
If the SKins had 4 first round picks, they would be set!!!lol

For some reason I think Von is gonna show up at the combine 6'2 and max 235#, if not lighter.

Toby Flenderson
01-21-2011, 05:53 PM
I run a 4.4, I would be just fine unblocked. It is not a valid point at all.

I'm sure with your above average speed you would be just fine unblocked, but the real question is, would you be awesome?

OzTitan
01-21-2011, 06:45 PM
So who is the first team that gives him a serious look in the draft order?

Only a 3-4 D? if it's a 4-3, where are they looking to put him? OLB still?

PossibleCabbage
01-21-2011, 07:14 PM
So who is the first team that gives him a serious look in the draft order?

Only a 3-4 D? if it's a 4-3, where are they looking to put him? OLB still?

Putting him at DE in a 43 front would only be reasonable if you're willing to be seriously undersized up front. At best, he's a situational player on the line in a 43. But his zone drops are pretty good, so he can probably play OLB in a 43, but his best fit would be in an attacking scheme since he's above average as a pass rusher for a 4-3 linebacker, even compared to top prospects.

But I would venture that he's categorically more valuable to a 3-4 team, so that's probably where he'll go. But I think I said the same thing about Brandon Graham and he went to the Eagles (though, they are smallish up front, all things considered).

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 07:44 PM
So who is the first team that gives him a serious look in the draft order?

Only a 3-4 D? if it's a 4-3, where are they looking to put him? OLB still?
The Cowboys will be the first and last team to look at him.

descendency
01-21-2011, 07:45 PM
The Cowboys will be the first and last team to look at him.

Because pass rusher is the biggest need in Dallas. . .

JustDezIT
01-21-2011, 08:01 PM
Because pass rusher is the biggest need in Dallas. . .

Yeah, Anthony Spencer really killed it this year.................. Get out.

Ware + a Competent rusher especially with Ryan and this D is borderline top 5.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 08:09 PM
Yeah, Anthony Spencer really killed it this year.................. Get out.

Ware + a Competent rusher especially with Ryan and this D is borderline top 5.
People have an idea about the Cowboys, but it's mostly misperception. Spencer sucks. I want to trade him to the highest bidder. Victor Butler is better. Many think Ratliff is a good 34 NT too.

On the other hand, people love to bash Romo... *scratches head*

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 08:12 PM
Because pass rusher is the biggest need in Dallas. . .
I think he could be used as a versatile linebacker at ILB or OLB. When you have players with similar skills it makes it all the more difficult for opposing teams to predict where the blitz will come from. Dallas hasn't had an effective ILB blitz since we transitioned to the 3-4. Quite sad, honestly.

PossibleCabbage
01-21-2011, 08:25 PM
The Cowboys will be the first and last team to look at him.

Yeah, for all of Miller's inadequacies as a pass rusher against NFL OTs right now, he would actually do pretty as a 3-4 OLB where he's not the primary pass rushing threat. So put him opposite a Ware, Suggs, or Matthews and he could be great.

JustDezIT
01-21-2011, 08:35 PM
I think he could be used as a versatile linebacker at ILB or OLB. When you have players with similar skills it makes it all the more difficult for opposing teams to predict where the blitz will come from. Dallas hasn't had an effective ILB blitz since we transitioned to the 3-4. Quite sad, honestly.

Yeah, the fact that he's versatile is great. I got sick to my stomach when a blitz was called this year and Brooking would stand on top of the center twitching his figures waiting for the snap. *** is that? Seriously?

The fact that we could use Miller as a OLB and occasionally blitz him from the inside makes him intriguing.

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 09:18 PM
Von Miller to the Bills in Scott's latest mock. FML!

D-Unit
01-21-2011, 10:21 PM
Where do you guys think he'll go? Late second round?
BaLLiN, I love your humor. hahahaha.

GloryDaysRBack
01-21-2011, 10:47 PM
People have an idea about the Cowboys, but it's mostly misperception. Spencer sucks. I want to trade him to the highest bidder. Victor Butler is better. Many think Ratliff is a good 34 NT too.

On the other hand, people love to bash Romo... *scratches head*

Lmao..you are ripping others about their misconceptions regarding the cowboys..and you call yourself a cowboys fan, yet, the junk you spew is even more asinine..

D-Unit
01-22-2011, 12:10 AM
Lmao..you are ripping others about their misconceptions regarding the cowboys..and you call yourself a cowboys fan, yet, the junk you spew is even more asinine..
Haha. You MUST tell me! What are some thoughts that I have about the Cowboys makes it so asinine to you?

phlysac
01-22-2011, 08:38 AM
Stay tuned for a surprise with Von Miller when I release my new mock draft on Saturday...

I see that you mocked him to the Bills. Prior to reading that I thought, perhaps, you'd have him going to San Francisco. Harbaugh and Fangio have been adament about needing a "multi-tool" at OLB in the mold of Clay Matthews. If the board fell a certain way, I wouldn't be shocked to see Baalke grab him at #7.

xxxxxxxx
01-22-2011, 09:36 AM
I'm sure with your above average speed you would be just fine unblocked, but the real question is, would you be awesome?

Above average? I can run above average with a broken leg.

D-Unit... back up my speed please.

GloryDaysRBack
01-22-2011, 02:05 PM
Haha. You MUST tell me! What are some thoughts that I have about the Cowboys makes it so asinine to you?

We might as well start with the most ridiculous statement you made..Butler>Spencer? Lmao...Spencer had a horrible year, absolutely...but let's not go overboard.

D-Unit
01-22-2011, 03:07 PM
We might as well start with the most ridiculous statement you made..Butler>Spencer? Lmao...Spencer had a horrible year, absolutely...but let's not go overboard.

That's asinine to you?

I'll say this. Spencer has all the talent to be as good as he wants to be. I still think there are better seasons ahead for him. That said, right now Butler is the better linebacker. He understands what he needs to do on the field. Call it superior technique, understanding of the position, making the best use of what he's got... Its hard to say exactly. Things like that make him a better OLB than Spencer right now. His production per play is better than Spencer's and that's not just luck.

How do you defend Spencer? Did he live up to your expectations this season?

Fred Savage
01-22-2011, 04:37 PM
Von Miller at #3. I have to be missing something, someone please elaborate. I am by no means a draft guru, just an average fan, however, every highlight clip I see of Von Miller has him out running the play and/or getting eating up but blocks. He seems to run stiff as a board and the Cotton Bowl game I watched of him all I saw was Miller running himself out of the play or getting stuck on the guy blocking him. I also saw a severe lack of pass rush moves, outside of his attempted wide stiff run outside of the tackle. I am so confused. Justin Houston looks like double the player from the clips I have seen.

will99890
01-22-2011, 05:47 PM
i think it's dumb for a lot of people in this thread to talk trash about Von Miller's pass rushing (obviously needs some work) and not talk about how he played surprisingly well standing up for the first time.

Great change of direction ability, seems very intelligent/instinctive, showed good hands in coverage, and plays the run better than he is given credit for (except in that video of 2009 vs Texas). I compare him to Manny Lawson. Measureables will lead people into pegging him as a "pure pass rusher" when really that is a weak point of his game IMO. I see him becoming a solid, complete linebacker in a 4-3 or 3-4, but not a sack machine/superstar type.

JustDezIT
01-22-2011, 07:06 PM
Von Miller at #3. I have to be missing something, someone please elaborate. I am by no means a draft guru, just an average fan, however, every highlight clip I see of Von Miller has him out running the play and/or getting eating up but blocks. He seems to run stiff as a board and the Cotton Bowl game I watched of him all I saw was Miller running himself out of the play or getting stuck on the guy blocking him. I also saw a severe lack of pass rush moves, outside of his attempted wide stiff run outside of the tackle. I am so confused. Justin Houston looks like double the player from the clips I have seen.


Clay Mathews probably had the worst technique as a pass rusher coming into the draft. Look at him now. He also weighed IIRC 245. You can teach technique. Not speed.

Watch games. Not clips on youtube.

Buffalo M
01-22-2011, 07:28 PM
I realize the latest mock here had the Bills taking him at #3 but that ship has sailed for the Bills, once they decided to roll the dice on Merriman and with the emergence of Arthur Moats last year.

Their biggest needs are a DT/DE and a true MLB. They'd have to be insane to pass on Dareus,Fairley,Bowers etc. This is exactly why they haven't sniffed the playoffs for 11 years...failing to build from the lines out.

jason96r
01-23-2011, 08:52 AM
I'm really a fan of Miller. I'd like the Lions to draft him if available. I think Miller could fit as a 4-3 OLB too and Gunther Cunningham may have visions of Derrick Thomas with Miller.

bigbuc
01-24-2011, 07:14 PM
I think he would be a very good 4-3 OLB as well.

Iamcanadian
01-24-2011, 08:54 PM
I think he would be a very good 4-3 OLB as well.

His problem lays in his ability to cover receivers and to drop back effectively into passw coverage. He has little experience in doing that in college. Would seem to suit an OLB in a 3-4 system better who can utilize him as a pass rusher.

nepg
01-24-2011, 09:30 PM
His problem lays in his ability to cover receivers and to drop back effectively into passw coverage. He has little experience in doing that in college. Would seem to suit an OLB in a 3-4 system better who can utilize him as a pass rusher.
He'd be a boss in the Peter Boulware role in a Marvin Lewis defense. He's an ever-developing player. The Clay Matthews comparison is spot-on except Miller is way further along at this point.

descendency
01-24-2011, 09:34 PM
His problem lays in his ability to cover receivers and to drop back effectively into passw coverage. He has little experience in doing that in college. Would seem to suit an OLB in a 3-4 system better who can utilize him as a pass rusher.

You apparently need to see more of his games. He was an effective pass coverage guy. His man coverage may need to be developed, but with his COD, I don't see a huge problem.

gpngc
01-24-2011, 09:49 PM
I think he is overrated. Would rather take Justin Houston over Miller. However, I am not a scout, just an average fan.

But your averageness is what makes you special. So therefore you aren't actually average. That's the point of the show.

Also, WTF defense are the Bills going to run?

Bills2083
01-24-2011, 10:28 PM
But your averageness is what makes you special. So therefore you aren't actually average. That's the point of the show.

Also, WTF defense are the Bills going to run?

They're planning on running either a 3-4 or a 4-3, depending on the opponent.
Seems like a terrible idea to me

gpngc
01-24-2011, 10:30 PM
^Hahahahahaha that IS probably one of the WORST IDEAS I've ever heard.

Hahahahahaha please link that if you can. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

EstablishTheRun
01-24-2011, 10:47 PM
Aaron Maybin 2.0

descendency
01-24-2011, 11:12 PM
They're planning on running either a 3-4 or a 4-3, depending on the opponent.
Seems like a terrible idea to me

It's the bills. It doesn't matter.

But the Ravens do that.

Borat
01-24-2011, 11:20 PM
They're planning on running either a 3-4 or a 4-3, depending on the opponent.

Really? This can't be true.

Bills2083
01-25-2011, 10:28 AM
^Hahahahahaha that IS probably one of the WORST IDEAS I've ever heard.

Hahahahahaha please link that if you can. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Wannstedt-getting-right-to-work/be29ddd3-ef0a-4344-9972-ac75587bf2f2

At the close of the 2010 campaign Gailey openly discussed a move to being a more multiple-front defense with possible weekly shifts from 3-4 to 4-3 fronts and vice versa depending on the opponent. Wannstedt is on board, but also recognizes that this offseason will demand a lot of planning and decision making from the defensive staff in determining their chief direction.

Guys, you don't know what its like being a Bills fan.
And descendency, we matter! :(

TimmG6376
01-25-2011, 01:25 PM
He'd be a boss in the Peter Boulware role in a Marvin Lewis defense. He's an ever-developing player. The Clay Matthews comparison is spot-on except Miller is way further along at this point.

Clay weighed in at 6-3 246lbs at the Senior Bowl in 2009.

Clay actually weighed in at 240lbs at the Combine. Did he lose 6lbs to gain quickness in the timed drills?

Scott described Miller as having "average muscle tone" which I would guess means his frame has room to grow once he gets into an NFL weight training program.

Macarthur
01-25-2011, 01:59 PM
Being in Texas, I've seen a lot of Miller. I like him a lot.

He is really athletic and can help a defense in lots of diff ways. Those that complain about him just looping around the tackle need watch some more clips. He had a monster game against OU, especially against the run! Also, the scheme at A&M stresses him getting up field so it may look a bit like he's a one trick pony, but that's partly scheme.

Make no mistake, he's not ranked that high for nothing. He produces; those that knock his early production need to realize he fought through a bad ankle early but finished the year very strong.

TimmG6376
01-25-2011, 02:18 PM
They're planning on running either a 3-4 or a 4-3, depending on the opponent.
Seems like a terrible idea to me

It's the bills. It doesn't matter.

But the Ravens do that.

It isn't so much about running a 4-3 one week and a 3-4 the next. It is about being able to switch up formations even within a single game to give the opponent different looks. For example the Packers run a base 3-4 but at times they've used 4 down linemen, 2 down linemen, even 1 down lineman (Psycho). In the NFCCG they lined up with 3 down linemen several times but for all intents the LDE in that formation was Clay Matthews. Against the Falcons, Capers used four down linemen in obvious running situations.

I don't watch them much but I'm guessing the Ravens probably do something similar because Suggs has the versatility to play DE in a 4-3 or stand up and play OLB in a 3-4.

Babylon
01-25-2011, 02:46 PM
It isn't so much about running a 4-3 one week and a 3-4 the next. It is about being able to switch up formations even within a single game to give the opponent different looks. For example the Packers run a base 3-4 but at times they've used 4 down linemen, 2 down linemen, even 1 down lineman (Psycho). In the NFCCG they lined up with 3 down linemen several times but for all intents the LDE in that formation was Clay Matthews. Against the Falcons, Capers used four down linemen in obvious running situations.

I don't watch them much but I'm guessing the Ravens probably do something similar because Suggs has the versatility to play DE in a 4-3 or stand up and play OLB in a 3-4.

I have to agree with you here. Defenses change up so much from down to down why even bother putting a label on them. 3-4 to me works well on obvious running downs but a 3 man pass rush is a recipe for losing.

bigbuc
01-25-2011, 02:50 PM
The size and his small frame I think that Von would be a perfect 4-3 ROLB also so this week he's been great at picking up RB put of the back field. I could see him going to the Lions. Just don't think he has the size to set the edge in a 3-4.

TimmG6376
01-25-2011, 03:14 PM
I have to agree with you here. Defenses change up so much from down to down why even bother putting a label on them. 3-4 to me works well on obvious running downs but a 3 man pass rush is a recipe for losing.

Yeah some people think the Packers are this crazy blitzing defense, but in reality they generally only rush 4, it is just that the 4th guy can come from anywhere. You'll rarely see them send the all out blitz unless the situation makes that advantageous (Todd Collins maybe?).

Miller could provide some of that schematic versatility on the right team. If he can prove he isn't a liability in pass coverage he could thrive on a 4-3 team that likes to send linebackers after the QB ala the Saints.

superpack84
01-25-2011, 06:18 PM
I think Miller is looking to add size. Watching the 2nd practice today on NFL Network, one of the reporters said that Miller told them he wasn't happy about his size and that he's looking to add on some size.

If thats the case, I like to see if he adds any size between now and the combine. And how he does in the drills if he does add size.

descendency
01-25-2011, 06:34 PM
He's getting his butt handed to him by the OL. He definitely needs some core work and some size to play in the NFL at all.

That said, I don't think he's anywhere near the radar for NE. If he added the weight to hold the POA, he would be a top 5 pick. If he doesn't add it, he won't be able to hold the POA and therefore the Patriots won't even look at him.

edit: I am still assuming he's first round material. If for some unfathomable reason he was available in the late second or early third, I would be massively furious if the Patriots pass on him. He can "break a toe-nail" and be listed on IR while he works out and learns the playbook so he can come in year 2 and wreck havock.

superpack84
01-25-2011, 06:39 PM
He's getting his butt handed to him by the OL. He definitely needs some core work and some size to play in the NFL at all.

That said, I don't think he's anywhere near the radar for NE. If he added the weight to hold the POA, he would be a top 5 pick. If he doesn't add it, he won't be able to hold the POA and therefore the Patriots won't even look at him.

I sure wish NFL Network could show more of the practice, so I could see things like that.

D-Unit
01-25-2011, 07:03 PM
Anybody think he'll get time at ILB in the NFL?

PossibleCabbage
01-25-2011, 07:23 PM
Anybody think he'll get time at ILB in the NFL?

I think it would be a waste. He's too good as an edge rusher to put on the inside. He'll play OLB, whether it's in the 3-4 or the 4-3.

Remember, OLBs can blitz the interior gaps, ILBs can't really rush the edge.

D-Unit
01-25-2011, 07:33 PM
Remember, OLBs can blitz the interior gaps, ILBs can't really rush the edge.
Oh trust me... I've seen Keith Brooking try it and I know it didn't work... but...What if you had an ILB who could rush the edge?

PossibleCabbage
01-25-2011, 07:47 PM
Oh trust me... I've seen Keith Brooking try it and I know it didn't work... but...What if you had an ILB who could rush the edge?

Well, then you'd have a gap in the middle of your second level wouldn't you? Since in order for the ILB to rush the edge, he has to vacate the interior of the defense.

So either there'll be a big hole in the middle of the defense if he's a Mike in a 3-4 or he'll leave the Buck by himself in a 4-3. I can't see him playing the Buck ILB at all.

D-Unit
01-25-2011, 08:12 PM
Well, then you'd have a gap in the middle of your second level wouldn't you? Since in order for the ILB to rush the edge, he has to vacate the interior of the defense.

So either there'll be a big hole in the middle of the defense if he's a Mike in a 3-4 or he'll leave the Buck by himself in a 4-3. I can't see him playing the Buck ILB at all.
Well, aren't you vulnerable anytime you send a blitz?

I can't say I know Wade's schemes to that level of detail on those exact play calls, where I've seen him attacking from outside the tackle. ...and maybe I'm wrong in that that's what Brooking was actually doing. All I know is that Brooking was called on at times to get to the passer, and it didn't always appear as if he was hitting the inside gaps in trying to do so.

I guess what I'm asking is that while I acknowledge Miller's edge rushing skills would be totally wasted if he were playing ILB on a full time basis, does that mean he wouldn't get time there at even in some schemes and some playcalls? I think the ability for him to find some playing time at ILB is reasonable. If it's absurd, then that's what I want to hear in rebuttle. ...and why.

I've heard some Browns fans say Rob Ryan's playcalling will get creative at times... that he will play as much as 6 LBs on the field! Understandably, that won't be the norm, but what I'm saying is wouldn't having 3 OLB types on the field (say Ware, Spencer and Miller) allow a DC to get creative in disguising where he will send his blitz from? ... making it all the more difficult for opposing QBs and OCs to diagnose at the LOS.

Or is that just crazy madden talk?

descendency
01-25-2011, 08:13 PM
You could use Miller off the edge, if you are comfortable dropping your DE into coverage.

PossibleCabbage
01-25-2011, 09:01 PM
Well, aren't you vulnerable anytime you send a blitz?

I can't say I know Wade's schemes to that level of detail on those exact play calls, where I've seen him attacking from outside the tackle. ...and maybe I'm wrong in that that's what Brooking was actually doing. All I know is that Brooking was called on at times to get to the passer, and it didn't always appear as if he was hitting the inside gaps in trying to do so.

I guess what I'm asking is that while I acknowledge Miller's edge rushing skills would be totally wasted if he were playing ILB on a full time basis, does that mean he wouldn't get time there at even in some schemes and some playcalls? I think the ability for him to find some playing time at ILB is reasonable. If it's absurd, then that's what I want to hear in rebuttle. ...and why.


Well, the issue I have is that unless you line up your ILB on the outside (at which point he ceases to be an ILB), then your ILB has an even longer path to the quarterback than a CB during a blitz if he insists on going around the edge. And even CBs with 4.2-4.3 speed won't always get to QBs in time on a blitz.

So if you're saying "can we sometimes have Miller also line up on the outside even though he's an ILB", then yeah absolutely you can. But what you don't want him to do is line up in a conventional ILB position, and then have to loop all the way around the outside of the offensive tackle... since you'll almost never get to the QB that way.

ATLDirtyBirds
01-25-2011, 09:09 PM
I like Von a lot. Get him up 10 pounds and he's a dynamic pass rusher in the NFL.

descendency
01-26-2011, 05:52 PM
I like Von a lot. Get him up 10 pounds and he's a dynamic pass rusher in the NFL.

I like Von Miller a lot, if he could add 10 pounds too. If I got a character reference from Mike Sherman about his work ethic, I'd take him in a heart beat. My biggest problems with him are his lack of technique and his size. If you take away the size issue, the technique he lacks is very coachable.

Right now, I see a guy who struggles to shed blocks, struggles against the POA, and struggles (at times, not always) to counter a pass blocker once the pass blocker locks on.

That said, everything else is scary good.

edit: That POA stuff is a huge deal breaker in the system NE runs though. They are not going to draft a project OLB in round 1. They need someone who can hold the POA (well, they treat it that way) as much as they can rush the passer.

I'd love to see what Defensive line coach Pepper Johnson or Linebacker coach Matt Patricia could do with him though.

bigbuc
01-26-2011, 07:54 PM
Word has it now that whats he's doing this week put him in the Top 5.

Duffman57
01-26-2011, 07:54 PM
He'd be a boss in the Peter Boulware role in a Marvin Lewis defense. He's an ever-developing player. The Clay Matthews comparison is spot-on except Miller is way further along at this point.

I laugh every time i hear the Miller/Mathews comparison. They are really nothing alike other than their size. All Miller could do was rush the passer. Mathews wasn't all that great a pass rusher (his highest sack total was 4 his sr. year, and he only got 1 in the previous 3 years), but was very good in coverage and was good stopping the run. Their nothing at all similar as players. The only reason he's compared is because their both the same size, and play the same exact "elephant" position.

D-Unit
01-26-2011, 08:00 PM
I laugh every time i hear the Miller/Mathews comparison. They are really nothing alike other than their size. All Miller could do was rush the passer. Mathews wasn't all that great a pass rusher (his highest sack total was 4 his sr. year, and he only got 1 in the previous 3 years), but was very good in coverage and was good stopping the run. Their nothing at all similar as players. The only reason he's compared is because their both the same size, and play the same exact "elephant" position.
Miller has a TON of TFLs on RBs. Why do people keep saying all he did was rush the passer? Go back and do your proper research.

GB12
01-26-2011, 08:07 PM
Miller has a TON of TFLs on RBs. Why do people keep saying all he did was rush the passer? Go back and do your proper research.

If he comes off free or without a ton of resistance he can get in the backfield and get after the ball, whether it's a sack or a RB. The problem I have with him, and it's a huge problem, is I don't think he can take on NFL linemen. If a tackle can get his hands on Miller he's going to win. Miller isn't very good at shed blockers, and that's going to limit his pass rush at the next level, and will really hurt him against the run. That's the main reason why I wouldn't touch him until the mid second. I don't want a LB who's a liability against the run.

JustDezIT
01-27-2011, 01:11 PM
He'd be a DPOTY if he lands with a creative defensive coordinator. He could be used like how Pitt uses Polamalu, or how Green Bay uses Mathews. He's not strictly a 3-4 OLB.

D-Unit
01-27-2011, 02:08 PM
If he comes off free or without a ton of resistance he can get in the backfield and get after the ball, whether it's a sack or a RB. The problem I have with him, and it's a huge problem, is I don't think he can take on NFL linemen. If a tackle can get his hands on Miller he's going to win. Miller isn't very good at shed blockers, and that's going to limit his pass rush at the next level, and will really hurt him against the run. That's the main reason why I wouldn't touch him until the mid second. I don't want a LB who's a liability against the run.
I know one person who would argue that... and his name is Elvis Dumervil...who stands all of 5'11, 248...

GB12
01-27-2011, 02:26 PM
Argue what?

I never said anything about his size.

D-Unit
01-27-2011, 02:32 PM
Argue what?

I never said anything about his size.
So 5'11, 248 can take on NFL linemen, but 6'3, 240 cannot? Despite him tearing up the Senior Bowl against NFL sized linemen?

GB12
01-27-2011, 02:39 PM
So 5'11, 248 can take on NFL linemen, but 6'3, 240 cannot? Despite him tearing up the Senior Bowl against NFL sized linemen?

Vernon Gholston was 6'3" 260 and cannot. But like I said, I'm not basing it on size.

And that's a poor point anyway since Dumervil has 11 pounds on Miller.

D-Unit
01-27-2011, 02:59 PM
Vernon Gholston was 6'3" 260 and cannot. But like I said, I'm not basing it on size.

And that's a poor point anyway since Dumervil has 11 pounds on Miller.
Oh well, that's what I thought you were basing it off. So what makes you think Miller will fail in the NFL?

PossibleCabbage
01-27-2011, 03:16 PM
I think the Matthews/Miller comparisons are off, because while both are very good athletes and physically not dissimilar (except for hair and skin tone) Matthews has a bit of a screw loose that makes him go 100,000 miles per hour all of the time. There just aren't many guys like that, whether or not they have a "good motor."

FUNBUNCHER
01-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Is Von Miller ideally more a weakside 43 OLB or a 34 OLB??
Or is he the type of athlete where it doesn't really matter because he's simply too talented to have an 'ideal fit'??

Being 6'2, 240#, I've been arguing with some people that he's not perfectly suited to play in a 34, but his skillset is diverse enough to compensate in other ways.

But in a perfect world he'd play the weakside in a 43 for a team like the Giants and be a perennial pro bowler.

bigbluedefense
02-01-2011, 03:24 PM
Is Von Miller ideally more a weakside 43 OLB or a 34 OLB??
Or is he the type of athlete where it doesn't really matter because he's simply too talented to have an 'ideal fit'??

Being 6'2, 240#, I've been arguing with some people that he's not perfectly suited to play in a 34, but his skillset is diverse enough to compensate in other ways.

But in a perfect world he'd play the weakside in a 43 for a team like the Giants and be a perennial pro bowler.

Amen to that! He's PERFECT for the Giants. He's everything we want in a linebacker. I really hope Reese moves up for him.

When I see him play, he screams 4-3 WILL to me. He's going to fail in a 3-4, he's just not strong enough. His core strength isn't there for him to take on blockers like he would need to in a 3-4.

He actually reminds me of Daryl Washington. But a lot meaner. I thought Daryl Washington would make a great 43 WILL but was drafted by the Cardinals to play 3-4 ILB. Yuck.

Saints-Tigers
02-01-2011, 04:37 PM
I thought he was a spectacular 4-3 LB all along, and was LOLing at people calling him a DE hybrid.

Seriously, it's like if you can pass rush, that means you should never be in a 4-3.

bigbluedefense
02-01-2011, 04:42 PM
I thought he was a spectacular 4-3 LB all along, and was LOLing at people calling him a DE hybrid.

Seriously, it's like if you can pass rush, that means you should never be in a 4-3.

He's not even a great pass rusher really. He's just ridiculously fast so he can get after guys at the college level.

But in the NFL, he's a Wilbur Marshall (85 bears). He has no pass rushing technque. The guy just burns the edge.

Way too big of a project in a 3-4. I honestly think he'll flame out if he's drafed by a 3-4 team.

A Perfect Score
02-01-2011, 04:54 PM
He's not even a great pass rusher really. He's just ridiculously fast so he can get after guys at the college level.

But in the NFL, he's a Wilbur Marshall (85 bears). He has no pass rushing technque. The guy just burns the edge.

Way too big of a project in a 3-4. I honestly think he'll flame out if he's drafed by a 3-4 team.

Its looking more and more like thats where he'll end up though. Be it with the Bills at 3, Cards at 5 or Niners at 7, I'd imagine he's going to end up playing in a 3-4 scheme.

Babylon
02-01-2011, 05:04 PM
He's not even a great pass rusher really. He's just ridiculously fast so he can get after guys at the college level.

But in the NFL, he's a Wilbur Marshall (85 bears). He has no pass rushing technque. The guy just burns the edge.

Way too big of a project in a 3-4. I honestly think he'll flame out if he's drafed by a 3-4 team.

I really like the mention of Wibur Marshall there, both guys are a little undersized but extremely fast and have a nose for the ball. Marshall was used in a variety of ways but he obviously had a great cast of teammates there with the Bears.

descendency
02-01-2011, 05:04 PM
Can anyone speak to the quality of A&Ms strength conditioning program? I mean if it's really bad, maybe him getting in an NFL gym could add on the 15 LBs and coaching could help his technique. It's not like he doesn't know how to use his moves, they are just. . . useless.

Brent
02-01-2011, 06:55 PM
Can anyone speak to the quality of A&Ms strength conditioning program? I mean if it's really bad, maybe him getting in an NFL gym could add on the 15 LBs and coaching could help his technique. It's not like he doesn't know how to use his moves, they are just. . . useless.
our football facility is unreal: http://www.aggieathletics.com/facilities/netumsteed.html

brat316
02-01-2011, 06:58 PM
our football facility is unreal: http://www.aggieathletics.com/facilities/netumsteed.html

thats sick, indoor turf, run the 40 right next to the weights.

jth1331
02-02-2011, 09:38 AM
Honestly, I think Miller is a good player, but talk of him being drafted as high as people say, thats way too high.

will99890
02-02-2011, 10:03 PM
I agree JTH. People made a big fuss about Aaron Curry going way too high for a pure 4-3 backer. Meanwhile, the same people are plugging Von Miller into the top 5 or 10 in mocks as a 4-3 backer despite having to change positions. I really like Miller as a prospect, but that just doesn't make sense to me. I think he should be in the 10-20 range.

PossibleCabbage
02-02-2011, 10:31 PM
I thought he was a spectacular 4-3 LB all along, and was LOLing at people calling him a DE hybrid.

Seriously, it's like if you can pass rush, that means you should never be in a 4-3.

I think it's more that it's more that, when evaluating prospects, people tend to try to figure out what role will be best for you; specifically which role best speaks to your strengths and weaknesses.

If the thing a guy is best at is "rushing the passer", then isn't it sort of reasonable to try to evaluate him in a position that rushes the passer a lot (3-4 OLB) rather than a position that rushes the passer infrequently (4-3 OLB)?

I mean, if you have Von Miller and ask him to play coverage and chase ballcarriers sideline to sideline, that's kind of a waste of his talents IMO.

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
02-02-2011, 10:31 PM
I really like his glasses.

jtice2003
02-02-2011, 10:34 PM
ehhh... im 50/50 on this one.

I don't see him in the terrell suggs/demarcus ware mold so, just a safe pick like aaron curry right now,

ellsy82
02-02-2011, 11:32 PM
He's not even a great pass rusher really. He's just ridiculously fast so he can get after guys at the college level.

But in the NFL, he's a Wilbur Marshall (85 bears). He has no pass rushing technque. The guy just burns the edge.

Way too big of a project in a 3-4. I honestly think he'll flame out if he's drafed by a 3-4 team.

Wow. I completely disagree. I think he's the perfect 3-4 OLB prospect, and a very weak prospect for a 4-3 guy. Technique can be taught, strength can be added...but speed is necessary for a 3-4 OLB. He'll be a project for whatever team drafts him...but he could be dominant with a year under a good LB coach and a good strength and conditioning guy.

descendency
02-02-2011, 11:55 PM
He'll be a project for whatever team drafts him.

Top 5 material right there. :P

Docta
02-03-2011, 01:46 AM
He's actually pretty bad at stopping the run. He needs to bulk up.

dietcoke111
02-05-2011, 06:29 PM
When he's blocked, he has among the worst counter moves in college FB.

With all due respect, I'm sure you a smart individual - but that was just idiotic. Just Plain Stupid.

LonghornsLegend
02-10-2011, 03:33 PM
It looks like Miller has cemented himself as a top 5-10 pick in a ton of mocks I've seen, I don't get it. Seems like there is a guy who skyrockets every year and this year it's him, good player, but I can't believe he's been slated as high as 2 or 3.


Seeing him and Blaine Gabbert in the top 5 confuses me :-/

BamaFalcon59
02-10-2011, 04:16 PM
Ends up like Julian Peterson IMO.

SeanTaylorRIP
02-10-2011, 05:30 PM
Ends up like Julian Peterson IMO.

Aldon Smith is actually the guy who reminds me of Julian Peterson.

TheFinisher
02-15-2011, 08:57 AM
My opinion is that I hope he's an option for Dallas at 9. I'm not worried at all about his size, 6-3 240 is already big enough to play linebacker and he's only going to get bigger.

He's the total package imo, size, speed, athleticism, instincts, pass rushing, versatility and most especially his closing speed. Miller can play any LB position in any scheme and be a playmaker. He's best suited for some kind of blitz heavy scheme where you let him go, whether it's off the edge on an overload or some kind of inside delayed, just let him loose and watch him make plays in the backfield. Miller is just the ultimate weapon to have for a defensive coordinator.

Don Vito
02-15-2011, 08:59 AM
Didn't see this thread, I started a new one but Scott brought the Hammer of Thor down swiftly.

Miller reminds me a great deal of LaVar Arrington. When Arrington was at Penn St., he played at a much lower weight than he did in the NFL. He showed up to the combine with probably 15-20 pounds of added muscle, and I think Miller can do the same. Miller and Arrington both share that freakish athleticism for their size, playmaking ability, great pass rushing ability, and versatility between schemes. Miller might not have quite the intensity and intimidating presence the Arrington had, but I think if Miller adds some size and is used correctly at the next level he could have an amazing NFL career. I love Miller outside in a 3-4, there are some concerns about his size but he has the pass rushing ability and athleticism that screams 3-4 OLB.

BamaFalcon59
02-15-2011, 11:22 AM
That's not a bad comparison.

Vox Populi
02-15-2011, 05:53 PM
Probably my favourite LB prospect since Lawrence Timmons. I don't like him as an outside linebacker in a 34 very much right now, and if he gets drafted into that scheme I think he'll end up on the inside. I don't think thats his best fit, I'd definitely put him in as a WLB before anything else, but thats based on him right now, in a year or two of NFL strength and conditioning he could definitely play the inside in a 34 at a very high level.

I really think Von will be an incredibly valuable player to whatever team drafts him simply due to his versatility at the position. With his size and athleticism he really could play any position and if/when he adds more strength I think it will be a matter of just understanding his assignment every play.

Right now though, where he currently is physically, theres no doubt he would transition to a 43 WLB the fastest, but I don't agree with saying he will never be as good as a rush backer or 34 ILB as he could be as a WLB, people are only looking at what he is right now when they're saying that. That was part of the reason why I liked Lawrence Timmons more than any LB in the past decade, I saw the same kind of versatility in him that I'm seeing with Miller.

asdf1223
02-15-2011, 06:59 PM
I would think that he ends up like current 49er Manny Lawson. Lawson was bigger and faster than Von, but both have terrific closing speed. Lawson's also probably a better 4-3WLB than a primary edge rusher.

J-Mike88
03-08-2011, 12:44 PM
This former scout is not impressed:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/08/von-miller-gets-the-dreaded-vernon-gholston-comparison/

“[Miller's] got some Vernon Gholston in him,” former NFL scout Dave Razzano told Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com.

Razzano spent two decades as an NFL Scout. His opinion differs sharply from those who see Miller as one of the safer picks in the draft.

“I’m not a big Von Miller fan,” Razzano said. “In looking at Big-12 tape, he does not have a motor. He doesn’t chase hard. They run at him, and he doesn’t fight off blockers. When he gets sacks, a lot of times he’s not getting blocked. He’s a one-move guy.”

SenorGato
03-08-2011, 02:34 PM
Wow. I completely disagree. I think he's the perfect 3-4 OLB prospect, and a very weak prospect for a 4-3 guy. Technique can be taught, strength can be added...but speed is necessary for a 3-4 OLB. He'll be a project for whatever team drafts him...but he could be dominant with a year under a good LB coach and a good strength and conditioning guy.

+1

I'm not sure what a 3-4 team wouldn't absolutely love about Miller...Seems like, as usual, someone said one thing and it kind of snowballed into the "THIS IS THE ONLY THING!" that things usually become...he's as excellent a 3-4 OLB prospect as he is a 4-3 OLB prospect, if not moreso...there's not really a guy who moves better than him in this draft and he's easily got room on his frame to throw on 10-15 pounds...Miller's someone I buy in this draft.

Babylon
03-08-2011, 02:37 PM
I really like the guy but i think if 1 or 2 guys have to drop because of a QB going high i think it could be Miller, maybe it's the ghost of Aaron Curry. Dont expect him to drop too far though.

SenorGato
03-08-2011, 02:39 PM
I really don't think Aaron Curry is going to play a role in where Miller gets drafted.

Babylon
03-08-2011, 02:42 PM
I really don't think Aaron Curry is going to play a role in where Miller gets drafted.

I hope not, Curry was a great college LB but he really wasnt a pass rusher. I thought he was drafted a little too high. Seriously you're probably right, i really dont see him getting by the 5th pick to be honest.

DecisiveLeaf
03-09-2011, 01:31 AM
Dave Razzano is dead on. It's exactly what I said last week.

I don't think he really fits in any scheme. He's too small for the 3-4, teams will run all over him. At 6' 3", he's lighter than Dumervil, who's 4 inches shorter than him. Plus, he only has one move, the speed rush. He's also not good enough in pass coverage to consistently play the 4-3. Plus, you take away his greatest asset, rushing the passer. These one trick pony's always get exposed in the NFL, I'm just not buying into the hype. Brooks Reed will be better than this guy.

“I’m not a big Von Miller fan,” Razzano said. “In looking at Big-12 tape, he does not have a motor. He doesn’t chase hard. They run at him, and he doesn’t fight off blockers. When he gets sacks, a lot of times he’s not getting blocked. He’s a one-move guy.”

I don't necessarily agree with the lack of effort claim though. He literally gets engulfed by bigger tackles, and it just looks like he's not giving effort. He'll be going up against guys 100 pounds bigger than him in the NFL.

jsang74
03-09-2011, 01:46 AM
James Harrison isn't 6'4 265 either.

At 6'3 243 Miller is a whopping 7 pounds lighter than Shaun Phillips and Cameron Wake (what there listed weights are anyway).

The Vernon Gholston comparison doesn't make much sense to me either. Gholston isn't nearly as fluid as Von Miller. Von Miller could turn the corner going backwards faster than Gholston. Miller's speed rush is so quick any coach worth a lick will be able to teach him good counter moves, the first step sets everything else up.

GB12
03-09-2011, 01:47 AM
I've been saying that for months, dude's going to be a huge bust. I wouldn't even want him at 32. NFL offensive tackles are going to have their way with him. He's a huge liability against the run and he's not a good enough pass rusher for the NFL. If a lineman gets his hand on Miller he's done.

DecisiveLeaf
03-09-2011, 01:53 AM
James Harrison isn't 6'4 265 either.

At 6'3 243 Miller is a whopping 7 pounds lighter than Shaun Phillips and Cameron Wake (what there listed weights are anyway).

The Vernon Gholston comparison doesn't make much sense to me either. Gholston isn't nearly as fluid as Von Miller. Von Miller could turn the corner going backwards faster than Gholston. Miller's speed rush is so quick any coach worth a lick will be able to teach him good counter moves, the first step sets everything else up.

You're making my point. Harrison is 3 inches shorter than Miller, but he weighs more. Miller played the season at 237, and at 6' 3", he's built like Taylor Mays. I don't care what his weight was at the combine, he put on "fake weight" after the Senior Bowl. The fact is, he plays the game at 237, not 243.

JHL6719
03-09-2011, 02:01 AM
Brian Orakpo was a "one move" guy coming out of Texas too. Besides, who are all these guys that have this arsenal of deadly and unstoppable pass rush moves in their repertoire in this draft class?

This kid is going to be a stud in the NFL. Should be a fun thread to revisit in the future.

descendency
03-09-2011, 03:23 AM
This former scout is not impressed:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/08/von-miller-gets-the-dreaded-vernon-gholston-comparison/

LMAO.

All I can say is that at least 1 scout shares my general opinion. Though, I don't agree that Miller = Gholston (or anything close), I love that at least one person (who got paid to do this) sees it like me. (and everyone can go back last year when I was saying the same thing - http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2237910&#post2237910 - I said it before that too, but that was the quickest one I could find).

That said, I think Miller will succeed in the NFL - just not top 10 level.

proshoota25
03-09-2011, 03:37 AM
yeah im not a big fan of von miller, especially not as an OLB in 3-4. dude cant get off blocks and doesnt help you much against the run. when he does sack someone, he usually just uses speed to get around you, its not like he has a wide repertoire of moves. in my opinion, dude is a one trick pony. I think he will have a solid career, but will never be as good as his draft position. My comparison for Miller is AJ Hawk. Dude is a solid player, but def wasnt worth where he was drafted that particular year.

wogitalia
03-09-2011, 04:47 AM
I'm torn on Miller, my concern is if he has the motor and work ethic to match the physical skills. Speed rushers are fine, though the more stout 3-4 guys have generally had more sustained success. I think Miller has a lot of flaws and is almost a "system-backer" in that I think teams will have to design a defense to create his sacks but that at the same time that system can be created.

Personally I think he is a very overrated prospect, I'd personally feel just as safe getting Brooks Reed probably 20 picks later as a 3-4 LB but that may be me. Miller does have some serious upside to him.

bigbluedefense
03-09-2011, 05:29 AM
The problem is everyone is trying to project him into a 3-4 defense.

He's just not a 3-4 defender right now, he'll need a lot of strength training and pass rush refining to become one. He's a project as a 3-4 player.

The guy is built to be a 4-3 OLB who attacks downhill. He's perfect for a 4-3 team that uses a lot of blitzing, or 46 principles. I've been saying it for awhile, he's Wilbur Marshall.

That's the role he needs to be in.

OSUGiants17
03-09-2011, 05:31 AM
He won't bust, but he won't prove that until season 3 of his career if he is in a 3-4 D

FUNBUNCHER
03-09-2011, 07:23 AM
If I had to pick an OLB to coach up in the pros, I'd want someone with the raw athletic ability and tools of Von Miller.

Even the greats weren't finished products as rookies. You don't think having Kevin Greene as a mentor/LB coach hasn't played more than a minor role in the development CMIII has had so early in his career??

If a guy is active, has a lightening quick first step and can bend and turn the corner, IMO he can be taught counter moves and pass rush technique.

The player Miller is today will be light years different from the player he should become after three years in the NFL.

Don't LBs get the benefit of the doubt for having 'upside'??

descendency
03-09-2011, 07:29 AM
Does anyone remember Dwight Freeney at Syracuse?

FUNBUNCHER
03-09-2011, 07:53 AM
Does anyone remember Dwight Freeney at Syracuse?
I remember when he sacked Mike Vick like 3 or four times in a game once at Syracuse.

The lighter, faster(!!), Dwight Freeney,(6'1, 248#, sub 4.4 speed), I think would have been an even better OLB in the pros than DE.

bigbluedefense
03-09-2011, 07:55 AM
If I had to pick an OLB to coach up in the pros, I'd want someone with the raw athletic ability and tools of Von Miller.

Even the greats weren't finished products as rookies. You don't think having Kevin Greene as a mentor/LB coach hasn't played more than a minor role in the development CMIII has had so early in his career??

If a guy is active, has a lightening quick first step and can bend and turn the corner, IMO he can be taught counter moves and pass rush technique.

The player Miller is today will be light years different from the player he should become after three years in the NFL.

Don't LBs get the benefit of the doubt for having 'upside'??

You're absolutely right. I'm of the opinion that if he does go to a 3-4, he's going to need some time to develop like Lawrence Timmons did.

Timmons didn't become a beast until this year, 4 years after being drafted.

My only problem is, if you're drafting this guy in the top 5, you want immediate impact. I don't think Von Miller is an immediate impact player in a 3-4.

Why not take Robert Quinn instead?

I like Miller as a prospect and as a player. I don't like his projected value though. It's too high.

dietcoke111
03-17-2011, 05:07 AM
This former scout is not impressed:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/08/von-miller-gets-the-dreaded-vernon-gholston-comparison/
Former Scout. He's getting his name out there. Dude needs a job.

If you're right, you can put that on your resume. If you're wrong, everyone forgets.

Grain of salt.

Sportsfan486
03-17-2011, 05:43 AM
Brian Orakpo was a "one move" guy coming out of Texas too. Besides, who are all these guys that have this arsenal of deadly and unstoppable pass rush moves in their repertoire in this draft class?

This kid is going to be a stud in the NFL. Should be a fun thread to revisit in the future.

Orakpo and Miller are completely, COMPLETELY different styles of pass-rushers. That's a horrible name to bring up in comparison. Orakpo had really good strength and was able to shed blockers; he was arguably better off of that then pure speed rush. He was also looked at by some as a superior 4-3 DE pass-rush specialist then a 3-4 OLB.

Miller has pure speed rush. That's it. If a blocker gets a hand on him he's out of the play. Absolute liability in run coverage and the quick-feet of NFL tackles will negate his speed rush and he'll end up 10 yards behind the QB. Also just don't see that much hustle out of him.

The upside on him is if he gets into an NFL camp, puts a LOT of effort into making his handwork elite and improving his lower body strength to not get washed off blocks he could turn into an elite pass-rusher. He'll never be a guy that takes on a tackle or block head on and will always be a bit of a liability in the run game but he's got the physical ability to be an elite speed rusher IF he works and gets elite handwork. Combine that with his fluidity and possibility as above average in pass coverage and his upside is very good... but his floor is making absolutely zilch impact.

I'd much rather have Reeds and his motor.

bitonti
03-17-2011, 07:31 AM
The problem is everyone is trying to project him into a 3-4 defense.

He's just not a 3-4 defender right now, he'll need a lot of strength training and pass rush refining to become one. He's a project as a 3-4 player.

The guy is built to be a 4-3 OLB who attacks downhill. He's perfect for a 4-3 team that uses a lot of blitzing, or 46 principles. I've been saying it for awhile, he's Wilbur Marshall.

That's the role he needs to be in.

this is a great post and true... everyone has him as a 3-4 player he's actually a perfect 4-3 OLB like Orakpo who rushes on 3rd and long.

on a personal note, Von Miller might be the best linebacker I've ever seen up close. And I've seen Senior Bowl practices with Demeco Ryans, Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews... Von Miller made more plays in more ways than any linebacker I've seen in the last 7 years. He wasn't just a pass rusher he was also making interceptions, he's a rare talent and possible that he's the #1 defender out there over Peterson.

Flyboy
03-18-2011, 01:25 AM
The problem is everyone is trying to project him into a 3-4 defense.

He's just not a 3-4 defender right now, he'll need a lot of strength training and pass rush refining to become one. He's a project as a 3-4 player.

The guy is built to be a 4-3 OLB who attacks downhill. He's perfect for a 4-3 team that uses a lot of blitzing, or 46 principles. I've been saying it for awhile, he's Wilbur Marshall.

That's the role he needs to be in.

He needs to be in a Gregg Williams' defense IMO.

yourfavestoner
03-18-2011, 01:57 AM
I just watched his game against Texas. If the rest of his film looks like that then the answer to the OP is not only yes, but **** yes. He jumps off the film on almost every play. His effort and pursuit down the line in the run game was incredible. He does a pretty good job already of getting his hands inside and extending to disengage from offensive linemen. He has a solid outside rip already, he just needs to build a couple of counter moves off of that.

Also, who cares if he's going to get mauled in the run game as a rookie? Any coach that tries to use him in that capacity is a ******* idiot. Just bring him along as a situational rusher for a season or two. After two years in an NFL training program, you're going to be looking at one of the best linebackers in the NFL.

As a player (not a prospect), he reminds me of a lightning fast Cameron Wake. FWIW, they're the exact same size coming out and were used in very similar roles in college.

kalbears13
03-18-2011, 02:22 AM
He reminds me a lot of Kamerion Wimbley coming out of college except Von Miller was already in a 3-4. I could see Von Miller having the exact same kind of career :/

yourfavestoner
03-18-2011, 02:37 AM
I just watched his game against Texas. If the rest of his film looks like that then the answer to the OP is not only yes, but **** yes. He jumps off the film on almost every play. His effort and pursuit down the line in the run game was incredible. He does a pretty good job already of getting his hands inside and extending to disengage from offensive linemen. He has a solid outside rip already, he just needs to build a couple of counter moves off of that.

Also, who cares if he's going to get mauled in the run game as a rookie? Any coach that tries to use him in that capacity is a ******* idiot. Just bring him along as a situational rusher for a season or two. After two years in an NFL training program, you're going to be looking at one of the best linebackers in the NFL.

As a player (not a prospect), he reminds me of a lightning fast Cameron Wake. FWIW, they're the exact same size coming out and were used in very similar roles in college.

I hate getting trapped at the end of the page.

SenorGato
03-18-2011, 01:52 PM
He reminds me a lot of Kamerion Wimbley coming out of college except Von Miller was already in a 3-4. I could see Von Miller having the exact same kind of career :/

Miller as a prospect > Wimbley as a prospect

Brent
03-18-2011, 02:08 PM
I hate getting trapped at the end of the page.
His games against Nebraska and OU are also on ESPN3. Those games are both examples of what he looks like when healthy.