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Black Bolt
01-28-2011, 08:15 PM
...how much more proof do you need that he isn't a top tier QB prospect? I mean, seriously. Now that the senior bowl practice is over, are you going to tell us to wait until the combine?

brat316
01-28-2011, 08:19 PM
...how much more proof do you need that he isn't a top tier QB prospect? I mean, seriously. Now that the senior bowl practice is over, are you going to tell us to wait until the combine?

him flaming out of nfl, then i'll believe it.

RealityCheck
01-28-2011, 08:36 PM
I ask the same thing.

ViperVisor
01-28-2011, 08:43 PM
Scott mentioned on a podcast that there will still be a team that has him top 15, another as a 3rd and the rest in the middle.

Cicero
01-28-2011, 08:51 PM
No more proof. I have maintained if he didn't have a good Senior Bowl he's not a first round pick and I'm sticking with it.

Master Exploder
01-28-2011, 08:54 PM
He has been very unimpressive so far. By unimpressive, I mean he doesn't stick out like a top QB prospect should stick out. I'd still like to see how he does in the game, and I'd probably even give him the benefit of doubt at the combine and Pro Day, but I still doubt my opinion of Jake Locker will change.

I don't see how people ever saw 1st round potential in him... even in his Junior year, I was very unimpressed.

senormysterioso
01-28-2011, 09:00 PM
I thought I heard that he got a second round grade from the draft advisory board last year...did I make that up?

brat316
01-28-2011, 09:04 PM
I thought I heard that he got a second round grade from the draft advisory board last year...did I make that up?

Those guys are pretty spot on. Vernon Gholston was given a 3rd round grade, even though he was drafted in the top 5. He was really a 3rd talent.

PossibleCabbage
01-28-2011, 09:20 PM
What exactly does it mean to be a "Jake Locker fan". I personally think he has a chance to be a very good NFL QB if he's handled with care and hooks up with a good QB guru, but fully admit that he'll likely be overdrafted because there are so many holes where quarterbacks should be in NFL rosters. If he can end up somewhere where he gets to sit for a couple of years, he could easily be the best QB of this class.

RealityCheck
01-28-2011, 09:20 PM
Those guys are pretty spot on. Vernon Gholston was given a 3rd round grade, even though he was drafted in the top 5. He was really a 3rd talent.
Yet people talk crap about them all the time.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-28-2011, 09:24 PM
...how much more proof do you need that he isn't a top tier QB prospect? I mean, seriously. Now that the senior bowl practice is over, are you going to tell us to wait until the combine?

you should ask the people that keep saying alex smith will be good

PatrickWillis
01-28-2011, 09:29 PM
He's all athlete. His accuracy is round 7 quality. The only reason there is hype is the strength of his arm and his running ability, 2 of the least important skills of a quarterback. He will bust, I can guarantee that.

Babylon
01-28-2011, 09:35 PM
No more proof. I have maintained if he didn't have a good Senior Bowl he's not a first round pick and I'm sticking with it.

When he gets picked in the first i'll let you back in the boat, even though i shouldnt.

ElectricEye
01-28-2011, 09:42 PM
He had an up and down week, not a bad one. I don't think he's a top ten value or even top fifteen value, but it's not like we went out there and **** the bed. He had two very good days, one mediocre one, and one bad one.

TACKLE
01-28-2011, 09:42 PM
He's all athlete. His accuracy is round 7 quality. The only reason there is hype is the strength of his arm and his running ability, 2 of the least important skills of a quarterback. He will bust, I can guarantee that.

You can't say arm strength is one of the least important skills to a quarterback. That simply isn't true. People have begun to underrate arm strength because of guys like Jamarcus and Kyle Boller. The thing is, the difference between having an A+ and a B to B+ NFL arm isn't all that significant in having NFL success. The difference between having a B+ arm compared to a C to C+ arm is very significant. There are no successful/above average QB's who don't have the ability to consistently make all the throws.

Babylon
01-28-2011, 09:45 PM
He had an up and down week, not a bad one. I don't think he's a top ten value or even top fifteen value, but it's not like we went out there and **** the bed. He had two very good days, one mediocre one, and one bad one.

It was pretty quiet in here tuesday and wednesday.

ElectricEye
01-28-2011, 09:48 PM
It was pretty quiet in here tuesday and wednesday.

That's the nature of draft message boards. When the guys you've predetermined won't be successful on whatever random basis you so chose are doing well, you keep your mouth shut. Then you pounce on absolutely anything so you can go "HAHAHAHA I WAS RIGHT" rather than be objective. That's boring.

descendency
01-28-2011, 09:56 PM
He looks like he was David Carr'd (after being #1 and playing behind an abysmal OL) at Washington. He has little to no confidence in his pocket and his accuracy suffers from it.

whatadai
01-28-2011, 10:06 PM
That's the nature of draft message boards. When the guys you've predetermined won't be successful on whatever random basis you so chose are doing well, you keep your mouth shut. Then you pounce on absolutely anything so you can go "HAHAHAHA I WAS RIGHT" rather than be objective. That's boring.

Um...day 2 and day 3 were quiet not because he did well...it was because he did the same thing as every other day in the week. He was inconsistent both days, he'll throw a pretty pass and follow it up with a horrible one and a checkdown or two. His mechanics are sound, it's his accuracy and inconsistency that are in question. When your mechanics can't be improved much and you're still inaccurate and inconsistent it just leaves questions to coaches if your ceiling is actually that high.

ElectricEye
01-28-2011, 10:11 PM
Um...day 2 and day 3 were quiet not because he did well...it was because he did the same thing as every other day in the week. He was inconsistent both days, he'll throw a pretty pass and follow it up with a horrible one and a checkdown or two. His mechanics are sound, it's his accuracy and inconsistency that are in question. When your mechanics can't be improved much and you're still inaccurate and inconsistent it just leaves questions to coaches if your ceiling is actually that high.

That's contrary to what both the reports here and what reports elsewhere said. Day 2 and 3 were pretty good by most accounts. Day 1 was meh. Day 4 was bad and there's no getting around that.

Halsey
01-28-2011, 10:14 PM
Tim Tebow had a bad Senior Bowl, so it's not like Locker has necessarily killed his chances of being a first round pick.

bullg8rdaddy
01-28-2011, 10:17 PM
Someone will pick him in the first.

PossibleCabbage
01-28-2011, 10:21 PM
Tim Tebow had a bad Senior Bowl, so it's not like Locker has necessarily killed his chances of being a first round pick.

23 teams passed on Tebow (including the team that eventually picked him) and the guy that did end up picking him got fired midseason last year for, in large part being an execrable general manager.

I don't think we can take anything from the saga of Josh McDaniels other than "don't draft like Josh McDaniels."

keylime_5
01-28-2011, 10:33 PM
Those guys are pretty spot on. Vernon Gholston was given a 3rd round grade, even though he was drafted in the top 5. He was really a 3rd talent.

meh, a guy who has 9 sacks as a sophomore and 15 sacks as a junior and is as athletic and strong as Gholston was had no chance of going lower than the first round no matter what team we're talking about.


I don't see how people ever saw 1st round potential in him... even in his Junior year, I was very unimpressed.


well the difference between his ability as a passer during his first year plus at Washington and what he showed his junior year under Sarkisian was night and day. It's the fact that he regressed after his junior year that was so devastating.

whatadai
01-28-2011, 10:35 PM
That's contrary to what both the reports here and what reports elsewhere said. Day 2 and 3 were pretty good by most accounts. Day 1 was meh. Day 4 was bad and there's no getting around that.

What are you talking about? Even Scott's reports say his inconsistencies and accuracy issues were still there on those days, the only difference was that they weren't his worse days. From what I see all the scouts saying, at best, those days were mediocre.

the natural
01-28-2011, 10:35 PM
23 teams passed on Tebow (including the team that eventually picked him) and the guy that did end up picking him got fired midseason last year for, in large part being an execrable general manager.

I don't think we can take anything from the saga of Josh McDaniels other than "don't draft like Josh McDaniels."

If you prorate Tebow's passing numbers over a full season it leaves Bradford in the dust. Not even bringing in his rushing numbers. I don't see any reason for criticizing McDaniels on that pick. Or the majority of his other picks. Remember Tebow cost the Broncos less than 1/4 what Bradford cost the Rams. In terms of draft chart value and guaranteed money.

ElectricEye
01-28-2011, 10:36 PM
What are you talking about? Even Scott's reports say his inconsistencies and accuracy issues were still there on those days, the only difference was that they weren't his worse days. From what I see all the scouts saying, at best, those days were mediocre.

I'm not sure what you're talking about to be honest. Scott says multiple times in those reports that Locker had good days and national media was saying much of the same. Accuracy issues in spots yeah, but his "worst days" didn't happen until the end. Everything up until ten was average to good.

whatadai
01-28-2011, 10:40 PM
meh, a guy who has 9 sacks as a sophomore and 15 sacks as a junior and is as athletic and strong as Gholston was had no chance of going lower than the first round no matter what team we're talking about.

Well considering how those draft grades are given as explained on this article...
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inside-the-NFL-College-Advisory-Committee.html

A lot of teams probably had him in the late first or later, but of course it just takes one team to fall in love with a player, whatever their reason. These draft grades are done before the combine too and the Jets seem like they tend to fall in love with players there. Gholston and Keller, I'm not saying it ends up being a bad thing 100% of the time, but in my opinion they should consider game tape more than combine stats.

whatadai
01-28-2011, 10:46 PM
I'm not sure what you're talking about to be honest. Scott says multiple times in those reports that Locker had good days and national media was saying much of the same. Accuracy issues in spots yeah, but his "worst days" didn't happen until the end. Everything up until ten was average to good.

Day 2: Washington QB Jake Locker had another inconsistent day at the office. Locker looked like he refined his footwork and technique a bit from Day 1, but continued to struggle throwing the ball. Locker’s passes were often inaccurate and once again flew over receivers heads. Between the hash marks Locker looked like an NFL quarterback, throwing sharp balls right on the numbers. On the out and corner routes, he just sailed many of his attempts. Locker twice had the Boise State receivers wide open for a deep pass and missed them in drills. When Locker got to the 11-on-11’s he did a little better and made some scrambling throws while under duress that were impressive. However, Locker was still inconsistent overall and is not answering the questions we all had.

Day 3: Washington QB Jake Locker looked the best he has all week today, by far. There were still instances in which Locker’s accuracy / placement was just a tad off but for the most part he was throwing darts. On one particular play during 11-on-11's early in the session, Locker rolled to the left and threw a strike. That was the type of play that keeps scouts salivating about what Locker could potentially be. For his fist two days Locker played at about a B- level but today he was a solid B+, if not an A-.

Copied and pasted from Scott's reports. Not horrible, but still mediocre since it seems like he just wasn't use to the new players yet. I have a feeling Scott only gave him an A- for Day 3 because it was a big improvement from Day 1 and 2. The inconsistency and accuracy issues that have plagued him all year are still there though.

I'm not saying he's horrible, just don't agree with your original post where you stated that he had great days on day 2 and day 3. Other reports I've read from other scouts state similar things as Scott. Except for McShay, but he never knows what he's talking about anyways.

brat316
01-28-2011, 10:47 PM
If you prorate Tebow's passing numbers over a full season it leaves Bradford in the dust. Not even bringing in his rushing numbers. I don't see any reason for criticizing McDaniels on that pick. Or the majority of his other picks. Remember Tebow cost the Broncos less than 1/4 what Bradford cost the Rams. In terms of draft chart value and guaranteed money.

Thats stupid. Really you are going to take a few good games he had and say if they were spread throughout the season he would be WAY better than Bradford.

If you look at it reasonably, you can see he got worse as a qb once teams had tape on him. His number are inflated from the Houston game. You don't think at all he would have been wreaked by Baltimore, Jets, SD the second time?

brat316
01-28-2011, 10:49 PM
meh, a guy who has 9 sacks as a sophomore and 15 sacks as a junior and is as athletic and strong as Gholston was had no chance of going lower than the first round no matter what team we're talking about.




Yeah thats true. Taking a freak athlete like that at like 30, you don't want to pass that up. Specially with the production he had.

If Mays has production with his freak body, he also would have went in the first.

49erNation85
01-28-2011, 11:15 PM
Sadly I have to admit that he won't be picking inside the top 20 maybe to Seattle since they will to ad a project to their team once Hassleback is gone but other then maybe the Skins or some team in between.SF won't take him that high with so many other needs .I am still a fan of becoming a descent QB but is going to be on the right team to be able to sit a while and learn to improve on his accuracy.Maybe the pats or colts .

SimonRath
01-28-2011, 11:25 PM
If you prorate Tebow's passing numbers over a full season it leaves Bradford in the dust. Not even bringing in his rushing numbers. I don't see any reason for criticizing McDaniels on that pick. Or the majority of his other picks. Remember Tebow cost the Broncos less than 1/4 what Bradford cost the Rams. In terms of draft chart value and guaranteed money.

Matt FLyns numbers if he started 16 games..
3,464 yards
24 TD's
16 INT's

under your statement, Matt would be a pretty damn good QB!

PossibleCabbage
01-28-2011, 11:30 PM
Matt FLyns numbers if he started 16 games..
3,464 yards
24 TD's
16 INT's

under your statement, Matt would be a pretty damn QB!

Attention: teams interested in drafting Jake Locker. The Packers will give you Matt Flynn for whatever pick you were going to spend on him.

whatadai
01-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Matt FLyns numbers if he started 16 games..
3,464 yards
24 TD's
16 INT's

under your statement, Matt would be a pretty damn QB!

What do you mean he would be a good QB? Didn't you look at the numbers that you just posted? He is a good QB!!!

SimonRath
01-28-2011, 11:32 PM
Attention: teams interested in drafting Jake Locker. The Packers will give you Matt Flynn for whatever pick you were going to spend on him.

what a steal!

SimonRath
01-28-2011, 11:34 PM
What do you mean he would be a good QB? Didn't you look at the numbers that you just posted? He is a good QB!!!

"pretty damn good QB". my bad

whatadai
01-29-2011, 12:03 AM
then we all pray that no one ever hires you as a gm. because apparently, you have no idea how to evaluate talent. oddly like mcdaniels and xanders.

Hey he might be on to something...if you prorate Arian Foster's two "full" games from 2009...you would predict that he would get the following stats in 2010:

312 carries
1728 rushing yards
5.53 rushing average
24 rushing touchdowns
48 receptions
208 receiving yards
0 receiving touchdowns

It's actually really close except for the receiving yards. I was trying to be sarcastic and sarcastically make fun of "prorating" a player's 2 games into 16 games...but now I just confused myself...

SRK85
01-29-2011, 12:25 AM
Jake Locker is the real deal he was the consensus first overall pick last year and he only made himself this season. Obviously I am kidding but he will get drafted 1st round someone will trade back in the late 1st round to draft him.

RaiderNation
01-29-2011, 12:30 AM
He's still not getting past 16 to the Dolphins

SilentJaguar
01-29-2011, 01:51 AM
We have the 16th pick, actually...

And I'd still take him there, anyways. No matter what QB we draft, he's still sitting at least a year guaranteed as it is.

Master Exploder
01-29-2011, 02:07 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that Jake Locker will be a 1st round QB. However, he hasn't convinced me that he has 1st round talent, and honestly I don't think he's convinced anyone. He's going to go in the 1st solely on his great demeanor and work ethic and his "crazy potential".

I really do want him to succeed. I love guys with great character like him and Tim Tebow, but honestly I think if I was drafting a QB, I'd feel more comfortable taking Tim Tebow in the 1st over Jake Locker. Say what you want to say about that, I expect a lot of people will disagree, but in terms of a QB who can "get the job done" regardless of how pretty their passes are, I think Tim Tebow fits the ticket more than Jake Locker.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
01-29-2011, 02:28 AM
Forget top rated Qb. I don't even believe he is an Nfl Qb period. More wide out, h-back or full back.

SolidGold
01-29-2011, 09:47 AM
Whoever Locker goes to, they need to think it through and have a plan of attack for how to develop him. He shouldn't start his first year. If Locker lights up the combine some team is going to take him in the first based on his physical ability believing they can mold him into a passer. Get Locker with a competent type Off Coordinator/QB coach (Morningwheg). Im using Vick as the litmus test for Locker. He helped develop Vick who had a 60% completion percentage in his 8th season for his first time. Vick was never known as being consistently accurate but if you have the right coaching and scheme I believe Locker can be developed. And if none of you remember Vick was drafted 1st overall based on his arm and athleticism, accuracy was never his strong suit and until this year he was always the square peg trying to fit into the round hole in terms of offensive schemes. A creative offense mind will tailor the playbook to Locker's abilities.

Locker has first round physical ability and potential, thats what the draft is all about. There is rarely a sure thing, finished product that comes out of the college ranks ready to make an immediate impact.

brasho
01-29-2011, 09:51 AM
No more proof. I have maintained if he didn't have a good Senior Bowl he's not a first round pick and I'm sticking with it.

I'm sure many said the same thing with Tebow... matter of fact, I'd bet many people (on here) took him completely off their draft boards as a QB... and he went in round 1 and then held his own when he started.

Not a Locker fan nor hater here, just pointing out the facts. He'll go round 1 because of his immense potential. If Akili Smith had been drafted by the Eagles instead of McNabb, I'd bet McNabb would've been the wash out and Smith the one getting sick in the Super Bowl... point is, if he gets with the right situation, Locker could be a good player.

brasho
01-29-2011, 09:57 AM
Hey he might be on to something...if you prorate Arian Foster's two "full" games from 2009...you would predict that he would get the following stats in 2010:

312 carries
1728 rushing yards
5.53 rushing average
24 rushing touchdowns
48 receptions
208 receiving yards
0 receiving touchdowns

It's actually really close except for the receiving yards. I was trying to be sarcastic and sarcastically make fun of "prorating" a player's 2 games into 16 games...but now I just confused myself...

Actually, those two games, and Ben Tate's injury, were the main reason why everybody laughed at me when I drafted Foster in round 6 of my fantasy football league. I laughed all the way to the #1 seed (then I got really bad luck in the playoffs and stopped laughing).

keylime_5
01-29-2011, 09:58 AM
I'm still skeptical that he goes as high as people think. When's the last time a guy with his kind of accuracy problems and that poor of a senior year went in the top 16 picks? Everyone assumed Jimmy Clausen was a first round lock and Brady Quinn was a top 10 lock too even on the day of their respective drafts.

RealityCheck
01-29-2011, 10:05 AM
Let's "prorate" Locker's bowl game over a 16-game NFL season.

80/256 (31.3 pct), 896 yds

FIRST ROUND PICKZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

brasho
01-29-2011, 10:19 AM
Let's "prorate" Locker's bowl game over a 16-game NFL season.

80/256 (31.3 pct), 896 yds

FIRST ROUND PICKZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

And 16 wins! :)

CameronCropper
01-29-2011, 10:26 AM
And 16 wins! :)

Haven't you heard? All that matters is your statline.

That's why Timmy Chang, Colt Brennan and Graham Harrell all went #1 overall.

Rabscuttle
01-29-2011, 10:46 AM
Locker has decent receivers and linemen, a familiar system and the advantage of not having to adapt to taking snaps from under center. The defence is limited in what it is allowed to bring so there is really no reason for him not to shine today. Every parameter that isn't an advantage for him is neutral and if he is even half as good as what his advocates say he should be the dominant quarterback of this game. There is only one person in the way of his success today...

Black Bolt
01-29-2011, 11:12 AM
He had an up and down week, not a bad one. I don't think he's a top ten value or even top fifteen value, but it's not like we went out there and **** the bed. He had two very good days, one mediocre one, and one bad one.

Sir, the expectations for Locker were not the same as other other QBs. None of the other were billed as top five talents who were held down by their teams. So for him not to separate himself from them this week equals a BAD week. Also, where are you reading that he had some "very good" days? I think you mean days that he didn't completely suck.

Black Bolt
01-29-2011, 11:15 AM
Yeah thats true. Taking a freak athlete like that at like 30, you don't want to pass that up. Specially with the production he had.

If Mays has production with his freak body, he also would have went in the first.

What sort of production did you think he had? Chris Long's production dwarfed Gholston's.

Black Bolt
01-29-2011, 11:16 AM
Sadly I have to admit that he won't be picking inside the top 20 maybe to Seattle since they will to ad a project to their team once Hassleback is gone but other then maybe the Skins or some team in between.SF won't take him that high with so many other needs .I am still a fan of becoming a descent QB but is going to be on the right team to be able to sit a while and learn to improve on his accuracy.Maybe the pats or colts .

Why would he be an improvement over Whitehurst?

Black Bolt
01-29-2011, 11:18 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that Jake Locker will be a 1st round QB. However, he hasn't convinced me that he has 1st round talent, and honestly I don't think he's convinced anyone. He's going to go in the 1st solely on his great demeanor and work ethic and his "crazy potential".

I really do want him to succeed. I love guys with great character like him and Tim Tebow, but honestly I think if I was drafting a QB, I'd feel more comfortable taking Tim Tebow in the 1st over Jake Locker. Say what you want to say about that, I expect a lot of people will disagree, but in terms of a QB who can "get the job done" regardless of how pretty their passes are, I think Tim Tebow fits the ticket more than Jake Locker.

I am no Tim Tebow fan, but I think I have to agree with you that I would rather have Tebow. That says a lot about Locker.

RealityCheck
01-29-2011, 11:20 AM
Don't see what's so freakish about Locker. He looks like an average athlete to me.

ElectricEye
01-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Sir, the expectations for Locker were not the same as other other QBs. None of the other were billed as top five talents who were held down by their teams. So for him not to separate himself from them this week equals a BAD week. Also, where are you reading that he had some "very good" days? I think you mean days that he didn't completely suck.

On this website, actually. I also saw quite a bit of it. Revisionist history at it's finest right here.

brat316
01-29-2011, 12:04 PM
What sort of production did you think he had? Chris Long's production dwarfed Gholston's.

What does that have to do with anything? Gholston was picked after Long.

Chris Long first 4 years, 43 TFL, 22 sacks.
Vernon Gholston in 3 years 30.5 TFL, 21.5 sacks.

Massive dwarfage going on there. I never liked VG, but as a prospect and potential wise you couldn't knock him. I still saw him as a second/3rd round pick, but with the freak measurables and productions teams aren't going to pass him up.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-29-2011, 12:23 PM
Don't see what's so freakish about Locker. He looks like an average athlete to me.

his athleticism is overrated but average is pushing it fo sho

he's one of those guys that's faster in a straight line (let me say that he's by no means a stiff - he can move, his 40 is just going overstate his mobility), his arm is not otherworldy it's just very, very good (but no better than Gabbert/Newton and clearly worse than Mallett) and he's just 6'2. he has the physical tools to be a #1 overall guy if he had the performance on the field to back it up but he doesn't the physical tools to be that guy without the performance imo

it would be different if he was 6'5 240 like...uhhh, gabbert

then again, i'm not a huge gabbert fan because he panics in the pocket and doesn't look to have a strong lower body but i'm more open to the people pimping him than it seems 95% of the plebs are

FUNBUNCHER
01-29-2011, 12:27 PM
Attention: teams interested in drafting Jake Locker. The Packers will give you Matt Flynn for whatever pick you were going to spend on him.

A poster actually brought up this possibility on another SKins fan board. Not trading our #10 pick for Flynn, but working out some kind of trade nonetheless.

Are Locker's accuracy issues simple inconsistency that can get better in an NFL minicamp and TC, or are they 'fatal flaws' that will ultimately stunt his career??

Is it a mechanics issue??

When I hear discussions about Locker and his accuracy, I think of Donovan McNabb; a QB who is still a playmaker but will drive fans and coaches crazy with his bouts of inconsistency passing the football.

Would you draft a QB who probably will never throw for better than 60% in the NFL???
That's a 'great', HOF passing percentage in the '80s and '90s.
It's mediocre in today's game.

I'm just confused as @@@@ about Locker.

I'll say this, if he's on the board and Shanny PASSES on drafting Locker, that's a huge red flag, IMO
Almost similar to Pete Carroll passing on Taylor Mays.

Brent
01-29-2011, 12:33 PM
then we all pray that no one ever hires you as a gm. because apparently, you have no idea how to evaluate talent. oddly like mcdaniels and xanders.
but he's the natural. it's genetic.

Babylon
01-29-2011, 12:37 PM
Don't see what's so freakish about Locker. He looks like an average athlete to me.

Where does one start with this? Locker has benched 330, squated 475, ran a mid 4.4 40. He's been good enough to get draft by the Angels and sign a 350k dollar contract, can hit a ball over 450ft and has a 95 mph fastball on the mound. Do you even know what an athlete is?

hockey619
01-29-2011, 12:49 PM
well the difference between his ability as a passer during his first year plus at Washington and what he showed his junior year under Sarkisian was night and day. It's the fact that he regressed after his junior year that was so devastating.

I disagree with this commonly heald belief that he made major progress from soph to junior year.

Ive been a huge fan of his since his freshman year, but hes still roughly the exact same now as he was then: big arm, very athletic and tough, terribly inconsistent footwork and technique. Ive cooled on him a little since the beginning of his junior year because while his numbers have gotten better (which is meaningless btw) hes still the same exact guy. So much potential but the accuracy issues are serious.

the natural
01-29-2011, 12:55 PM
LOL, great site you guys have here. I get a warning for "trolling" from some dumbass mod who takes the time to tell me he thinks Gabbert sucks even though the people he works for have him rated as the top QB. Then I point out a simple fact that Tebow's first three starts (the only thing we have to go on) were better than Bradford or any other rookie QB's in terms of passing. NOT TO MENTION THAT HE OUTRUSHED MOST BACKS DURING THAT STRETCH, and you guys get all snotty.

**** you then dopes. Tebow was better in the time he played (for 10m guaranteed) than Bradford (50m guaranteed) by a long stretch. Until that changes Tebow is the better passer, the better player, and (by a long ****ing margin) a better pick.

Dweebs.

keylime_5
01-29-2011, 12:56 PM
well he missed most of is sophomore year. As a junior out of nowhere he showed up with 2800 yards, 20+ Tds and 11 Ints at 58% completed passes. He played in USC's old offense and there is no question he made strides from his first two years just looking at his numbers. Watch his upset of the Trojans from 2009 and tell me he looked anything close to that poised the first two years? People were expecting 20-30 Tds and 3000 yards this year instead of his major regression. His accuracy and footwork didn't improve at all.

FUNBUNCHER
01-29-2011, 01:00 PM
LOL, great site you guys have here. I get a warning for "trolling" from some dumbass mod who takes the time to tell me he thinks Gabbert sucks even though the people he works for have him rated as the top QB. Then I point out a simple fact that Tebow's first three starts (the only thing we have to go on) were better than Bradford or any other rookie QB's in terms of passing. NOT TO MENTION THAT HE OUTRUSHED MOST BACKS DURING THAT STRETCH, and you guys get all snotty.

**** you then dopes. Tebow was better in the time he played (for 10m guaranteed) than Bradford (50m guaranteed) by a long stretch. Until that changes Tebow is the better passer, the better player, and (by a long ****ing margin) a better pick.

Dweebs.


Can't honestly compare the two since Tebow's sample size is so small.

Who's the QB who came in and played for the Vikes late this season??
Joe Webb??
Great player....for one game.

AntoinCD
01-29-2011, 03:01 PM
LOL, great site you guys have here. I get a warning for "trolling" from some dumbass mod who takes the time to tell me he thinks Gabbert sucks even though the people he works for have him rated as the top QB. Then I point out a simple fact that Tebow's first three starts (the only thing we have to go on) were better than Bradford or any other rookie QB's in terms of passing. NOT TO MENTION THAT HE OUTRUSHED MOST BACKS DURING THAT STRETCH, and you guys get all snotty.

**** you then dopes. Tebow was better in the time he played (for 10m guaranteed) than Bradford (50m guaranteed) by a long stretch. Until that changes Tebow is the better passer, the better player, and (by a long ****ing margin) a better pick.

Dweebs.

Sam Bradford's first three games

69/117 for 655 yards with 4 TDs and 5 INTs

Tim Tebow's first three games

40/81 for 651 with 4 TDs and 3 INTs

So really it's not as clear cut as you make it sound. Bradford had a better completion percentage and better yards, although Tebow had a way better YPA. But Bradford was throwing to the worst WR/TE unit in the entire league

SRogers92
01-29-2011, 05:26 PM
Please don't compare Tebow and Bradford, it's a joke ... Tebow played in one of the most QB-friendly systems in the league that made Orton look like a borderline Pro Bowler for most of the season ... Not to mention, virtually no footage of Tebow to really plan for ... he will come back to the average, average passer next year when teams have footage to watch and he's not in a spread scheme.

Black Bolt
01-29-2011, 06:49 PM
What does that have to do with anything? Gholston was picked after Long.

Chris Long first 4 years, 43 TFL, 22 sacks.
Vernon Gholston in 3 years 30.5 TFL, 21.5 sacks.

Massive dwarfage going on there. I never liked VG, but as a prospect and potential wise you couldn't knock him. I still saw him as a second/3rd round pick, but with the freak measurables and productions teams aren't going to pass him up.

Post their TACKLE totals and get back with me. Anyone who actually saw them play could see that Gholston only made plays that were right in front of him.

TitanHope
01-29-2011, 07:10 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he chose not to even apply to get the NFL Draft Advisory's feedback. Locker seemed to have made his decision on coming back and nothing was going to change his mind. It sounded like he made up his mind prior to his hype as possibly going ahead of Bradford.

Regardless, I'll always become fans of the guys who could go high but choose to come back to college. The guy had to watch his team go winless as a sophomore, brought them up from the cellar his junior year, and then led them to a bowl game win as a senior. I think that's freaking awesome.

Do I, objectively, think he's a top QB anymore? No. For a guy who was the only 1st RD possibility at the Senior Bowl, he didn't show it. You'd think it was Ponder who had the hype machine. But the things he's got going against him can be fixed. He needs the Aaron Rodgers treatment, which is funny since he both admires and compares favorably to him (as a best case scenario).

Just, for the love of God, don't shove him out in the NFL unprepared with a poor supporting cast. That'd be painful to watch.

I hope he ******* blows the NFL up one day.

descendency
01-29-2011, 07:16 PM
Haven't you heard? All that matters is your statline.

That's why Timmy Chang, Colt Brennan and Graham Harrell all went #1 overall.

That's the converse of the argument and the converse is not necessarily true.

But there is reason to be concerned when you look at a stat line and you are not impressive at least.

Halsey
01-29-2011, 07:39 PM
I'd still take Locker in the first round. Not that I'm a Jake Locker expert. I just think teams have to take risks on QBs. The NFL is full of QBs who had to do a lot of developing once in the NFL. Locker has no more questions than many quality NFL QBs did coming out.

Babylon
01-29-2011, 07:47 PM
I'd still take Locker in the first round. Not that I'm a Jake Locker expert. I just think teams have to take risks on QBs. The NFL is full of QBs who had to do a lot of developing once in the NFL. Locker has no more questions than many quality NFL QBs did coming out.

You'd like to see him get some of his throws to the right down a bit but Stafford used to be high with balls too, i remember countless times AJ green climbing the latter to pull down some of his throws, you would know more on that subject than me.

nepg
01-29-2011, 07:52 PM
He looked good throwing the ball today (which was the main thing - we needed to see him just dropping back and throwing the ball on a level playing field). He needs to work on his footwork, but in a completely neutral setting, that seemed to be his only weakness. Granted, the footwork problem caused a lot of other things to not work so well, but it's an easy fix that he knows about.

There were a couple timing issues, but those are always expected in All-Star games, and the timing errors I saw weren't on Locker (first throw to Kendricks and the pass to Young that drew a PI call - Young should have caught that for the TD).

Shorten his delivery stride, and he's back to being the world-beater he was hyped to be, imo.

Forenci
01-29-2011, 07:57 PM
I'd take Locker in the latter half of the first round for sure. I don't think the debate is really about whether he'll go in the first round, because most people seem to believe he will, but rather people are arguing if what he's done in his career, and the Senior Bowl, justifies it.

Sometimes I think people get confused about that aspect. I am somebody who really likes Locker, but has serious questions about whether he can play successfully in the NFL. But, because he has a lot of the things you look for in QB like arm strength, intelligence, leadership, work ethic, etc, it's worth the risk if you're a team in the second half of the first round.

Even then I can see some team falling in love with him and drafting him much higher in the first.

Thread Killer
01-29-2011, 08:02 PM
With the 10th pick of the 2010 NFL Draft, the Washington Redskins select QB Jake Locker, Washington.

Locker gets with Shanahan who then gets him some weapons and plays him to his strengths and voila. In a couple years it will look like Jay Cutler's final year in Denver.

Babylon
01-29-2011, 08:15 PM
With the 10th pick of the 2010 NFL Draft, the Washington Redskins select QB Jake Locker, Washington.

Locker gets with Shanahan who then gets him some weapons and plays him to his strengths and voila. In a couple years it will look like Jay Cutler's final year in Denver.

that's a thread killer.

Forenci
01-29-2011, 08:19 PM
He looked good throwing the ball today (which was the main thing - we needed to see him just dropping back and throwing the ball on a level playing field). He needs to work on his footwork, but in a completely neutral setting, that seemed to be his only weakness. Granted, the footwork problem caused a lot of other things to not work so well, but it's an easy fix that he knows about.

There were a couple timing issues, but those are always expected in All-Star games, and the timing errors I saw weren't on Locker (first throw to Kendricks and the pass to Young that drew a PI call - Young should have caught that for the TD).

Shorten his delivery stride, and he's back to being the world-beater he was hyped to be, imo.

Except that's not really true. People keep saying Locker just needs to fix his foot work but he's got other flaws too. I'm worried about his decision making and his ability to throw from the pocket. His pocket awareness seems really bad. Maybe that's just from a poor offensive line, but even when he gets blocking he seems uncomfortable throwing from the pocket.

ElectricEye
01-29-2011, 08:34 PM
I think the pocket awareness thing is a product of playing behind a poor offensive line in Washington. Bad habits tend to form and the overstriding thing might have something to do with that as well. Last year I think he was better in both of those areas. I think mid first round is the right place for him right now when everything is said and done. Could get a push from the combine and workouts too.

Chidi29
01-29-2011, 09:30 PM
I don't consider myself to be part of the Locker "fan base" but I don't think he's an awful QB like some are making it out to be.

Let's first realize that what he's done over the course of the season and career is more important than a poor showing at the Senior Bowl. Mobile is a nice place to finally talk to guys and find out their makeup as well as getting a look at small school guys like Courtney Smith, but when there's a high-profile guy like Locker, the game-tape is going to outweigh the Senior Bowl. I read a report on NFP where one GM said he's never watched a Senior Bowl in 25 years.

Locker is an extremely tough, gritty QB. The people who liked Tebow last year should like Locker the same. Although it was an awful passing day, Locker was gets an A+ in toughness in the bowl game against Nebraska. He got hit on the head by two players on a dive, layed on the ground for several moments motionless only to come back in the game a few plays later and help lead the Huskies to a win after getting blown out in the regular season. Locker is a guy that will have the respect of everyone in the locker room, even if the numbers aren't always there.

As much flack as he gets with his accuracy, some of that is deserved I realize that, he's pretty pinpoint on the move. For mobile quarterbacks that can leave the pocket, that is paramount. Isn't worth anything being a mobile QB if you can't keep your eyes downfield and throw on the run. Not at the NFL level anyways. I think he's the most accurate QB on the run in this year's class. Blows Cam Newton out of the water in that regard.

Going back to his toughness, he'll stand tall to make a throw. I was watching the Oregon St game and he took a shot as he launched a 40 yard TD to a WR on a skinny post. It wasn't a jump ball, lame duck that the WR luckilly came down with either. It was on the money.

My biggest hangup is his decision-making. He'll make too many throws off his backfoot and seems to throw some passes right at defenders. The UCLA game was particularly bad and the Bruins should have had at least one pick six that was dropped.

I think he's similar to Kaepernick in a lot of ways and I know Colin is getting a ton of love on the boards. Both are two-dimensional players, have good arms (Kaapernick's is better though) who have good work ethic and are leaders while having question marks about decision-making and reading defenses.

Rich man Tim Tebow's, poor man's Ben Roethlisberger's.

descendency
01-29-2011, 10:24 PM
I'd still take Locker in the first round. Not that I'm a Jake Locker expert. I just think teams have to take risks on QBs. The NFL is full of QBs who had to do a lot of developing once in the NFL. Locker has no more questions than many quality NFL QBs did coming out.

They actually don't. If the chemistry isn't there between coach and player, they won't take a risk.

If it is, they might - but that's really really hard to predict.

I still have him going to Washington, because I think he fits Shanahan's ideal QB mold, but it may be as a trade up at the end of the first. I do not think Minnesota will take him.

nepg
01-29-2011, 10:48 PM
Locker isn't one of those guys that you let slide if you want him, though. If you want him, you better take him because he has certain tangible and intangible qualities that make him a franchise-type QB. You simply don't **** around with draft position when you're talking about a franchise-type QB. I have all 4 of them going in the Top 15. They all have franchise QB qualities.

Also, when was the last time trading back into the first round to take a QB worked?

Grossman? Fail. Ramsey? Fail. Boller? Fail. Losman? Fail. Quinn? Fail. Tebow? TBD (though I'm not sure he qualifies).

There's something to that. It's pussyfooting your QB situation. If you want to draft a QB, you have to be all-in and make the pick with confidence. Otherwise, don't do it at all.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-29-2011, 11:10 PM
That depends on your opinion of Joe Flacco

The Bucs traded up to take Freeman in mid-late Round 1 but they were already drafting back there

nepg
01-30-2011, 12:09 AM
That depends on your opinion of Joe Flacco

The Bucs traded up to take Freeman in mid-late Round 1 but they were already drafting back there
I think Flacco happened more because Jacksonville made an offer that Baltimore couldn't refuse. Then Baltimore moved back to the middle of the round to get Flacco.

JPP90
01-30-2011, 12:48 AM
....how about we make this all go away until he shows what he can do in the NFL, in whatever system he's drafted into? The people that don't like him are acting like morons and declaring him a bust already, the same mistake made with any number of QBs you could pull out of a hat. And bicker and moan to no end with the people that have liked the guy for years and are reserving judgement on him. Boo hoo. Hate him all you want, it isn't gonna keep him out of the 1st round or even off your team depending who you follow. All if takes is 1 team to fall in love you and in the case of high character, likeable guys that for whatever reason, are over-scrutinized and nit-picked...it actually can lead to a team, or 2, or 3 rooting for them and falling in love with them. Look no further than Tebow for proof of that. This line if discussion should seriously die before the haters dig themselves holes they can't dig themselves out of if the guy succeeds. Some of the stuff said on this thread has been below elementary level. Enough already...

SchizophrenicBatman
01-30-2011, 12:51 AM
I think Flacco happened more because Jacksonville made an offer that Baltimore couldn't refuse. Then Baltimore moved back to the middle of the round to get Flacco.

regardless of how it happened i would say moving down from 8, then moving back up, the definition of "pussyfooting"

Day One Pick
01-30-2011, 03:13 AM
"With the 39th pick of the 2011 NFL Draft, the Tennessee Titans select Jake Locker, quarterback, University of Washington."

SKim172
01-30-2011, 09:35 AM
I am somebody who really likes Locker, but has serious questions about whether he can play successfully in the NFL. But, because he has a lot of the things you look for in QB like arm strength, intelligence, leadership, work ethic, etc, it's worth the risk if you're a team in the second half of the first round.

Even then I can see some team falling in love with him and drafting him much higher in the first.

See, I wouldn't say it's worth the risk. I would favor picking conservatively, since a bad first-round pick can set your back in a big way - a bad first-round quarterback can cripple a franchise and get a GM fired. If you have serious questions about a first-round QB, then you shouldn't pick him. For the money and years you're putting into him, he better be a solid bet, because I can pick up another QB with serious questions off the street for a fraction of the cost.

I understand the argument that a franchise QB is necessary and that statistically speaking, the first round has proven the better option to find that franchise QB.

But let's face it, if you're in need of a franchise QB, you're not a "Need to win it all now" type of a team - you're more of a "We'll still suck tomorrow" kind of team.

So if you need a QB and have serious questions about a QB in the first round, then you damn well better examine all those questions until you have answers for them. And if you still have questions, then you're better off passing on him and waiting for the next draft. Gamble with smaller money on a pick later in the draft, and better luck next year.

Babylon
01-30-2011, 10:39 AM
Locker isn't one of those guys that you let slide if you want him, though. If you want him, you better take him because he has certain tangible and intangible qualities that make him a franchise-type QB. You simply don't **** around with draft position when you're talking about a franchise-type QB. I have all 4 of them going in the Top 15. They all have franchise QB qualities.

Also, when was the last time trading back into the first round to take a QB worked?

Grossman? Fail. Ramsey? Fail. Boller? Fail. Losman? Fail. Quinn? Fail. Tebow? TBD (though I'm not sure he qualifies).

There's something to that. It's pussyfooting your QB situation. If you want to draft a QB, you have to be all-in and make the pick with confidence. Otherwise, don't do it at all.

I agree, i dont see him getting by 15 myself (or whatever pick the dolphins have). To me there are two differant ways of looking at Locker's game yesterday.

Take A- 6-10 61 yards was high on some of his throws and missed an open Lance Kendricks to start the game.

Take B- 6-10 but actually was on target on 9 of 11 throws. The first pass of the game for the North was about a 15yd in route that the TE looked to not break off very well (so says Mike Mayock). 3rd play of the game is a pass to Titus Young on a little slant that is a high but catchable (so says Mike Mayock). Pass in the endzone that was called for interferance looked like Young still should have caught (so says me). So if he was 9-11 for about 130 what would we be talking about this morning.

Scouts will have to decide what plan they are comfortable signing off on.

DBNYDP
01-30-2011, 11:20 AM
I love the excuses. It was Titus Young's fault that he didn't catch it, Lance Kendrick didn't break fast enough. His accuracy is still in question, and don't forget before you spaz over his passing stats about 27 of the yards came on the short pass to Scott who took it far.

PossumBoy9
01-30-2011, 11:23 AM
What sort of production did you think he had? Chris Long's production dwarfed Gholston's.

Huh?

Gholston had more sacks than Long, despite playing one less year.

Babylon
01-30-2011, 11:43 AM
I love the excuses. It was Titus Young's fault that he didn't catch it, Lance Kendrick didn't break fast enough. His accuracy is still in question, and don't forget before you spaz over his passing stats about 27 of the yards came on the short pass to Scott who took it far.

Not blaming those guys for anything, the first series guys are nervous and working with a new QB. What i am saying if it's the firing range he hit the target, maybe not dead center but i had 9 of 11 balls catchable. I dont think that is spazing, it's something that a scout i'm sure would look at. As for Kendrick and Young if they want to play in the NFL they need to make those plays.

DBNYDP
01-30-2011, 11:54 AM
Not blaming those guys for anything, the first series guys are nervous and working with a new QB. What i am saying if it's the firing range he hit the target, maybe not dead center but i had 9 of 11 balls catchable. I dont think that is spazing, it's something that a scout i'm sure would look at. As for Kendrick and Young if they want to play in the NFL they need to make those plays.
That ball to Kendricks was just not there, I didn't see how he could have made that play. Locker threw the ball way too early.
And that pass to Young was some ********, first off Young made a fantastic grab but then got nailed as soon as he caught it. You don't set receivers up like that, especially receivers that are as small as Young...Most receivers wouldn't have caught that and it might have bounced off their hands for an INT like what happened with Crabtree a couple times this year.

For the most point yesterday confirmed what I believed. He has promise, great arm, good legs, and intangibles but...he is a project. His accuracy needs a lot of work, lots of wobbly balls, and balls that were off target. His footwork is going to need a lot of work, it is really going to hold him back., and lastly he needs to work on ball security.

nepg
01-30-2011, 12:00 PM
Young didn't go up that high to get it, and he should have come down with it. He really didn't take much of a shot as the defenders mainly just hit each other.

Kendricks missed his break. That ball was where it was supposed to be.

Babylon
01-30-2011, 12:05 PM
That ball to Kendricks was just not there, I didn't see how he could have made that play. Locker threw the ball way too early.
And that pass to Young was some ********, first off Young made a fantastic grab but then got nailed as soon as he caught it. You don't set receivers up like that, especially receivers that are as small as Young...Most receivers wouldn't have caught that and it might have bounced off their hands for an INT like what happened with Crabtree a couple times this year.

For the most point yesterday confirmed what I believed. He has promise, great arm, good legs, and intangibles but...he is a project. His accuracy needs a lot of work, lots of wobbly balls, and balls that were off target. His footwork is going to need a lot of work, it is really going to hold him back., and lastly he needs to work on ball security.


The ball security bothers me too. That first pass to Young was high as you point out and to say a Michael Floyd or an AJ Green would have caught it is probably not germaine to the conversation.

The ball to Kendricks i think was thrown to the right spot, you have to throw that before the guy makes his break and the receiver needs to take more of a 45 degree angle rather than the 20 or so degree angle he took, Mayock even pointed that out. In that case if i'm a scout i give the QB a + for that throw.

Halsey
01-30-2011, 02:02 PM
They actually don't. If the chemistry isn't there between coach and player, they won't take a risk.

Ok, so you're saying NFL teams don't take risks on QBs? They only draft a QB if they're 100% sure he'll be a star? That's funny.

Master Exploder
01-30-2011, 02:09 PM
From watching the 3 plays, 2 to Titus Young and 1 to Lance Kendricks, I'd probably have to pin those on Jake Locker more than anybody else. I mean, it takes effort from both sides, but Jake Locker certainly did not put those balls where they needed to be.

nepg
01-30-2011, 02:26 PM
From watching the 3 plays, 2 to Titus Young and 1 to Lance Kendricks, I'd probably have to pin those on Jake Locker more than anybody else. I mean, it takes effort from both sides, but Jake Locker certainly did not put those balls where they needed to be.
The only one that wasn't where it was supposed to be was the one that Young dropped. Kendricks didn't break when and as hard as he was supposed to (that was a perfect ball). And the shouldabeen TD was an NFL throw that Young should have gotten to. On the shouldabeen TD, that throw was placed perfectly...it will always result in a PI call or a TD on that play.

SimonRath
01-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Ok, so you're saying NFL teams don't take risks on QBs? They only draft a QB if they're 100% sure he'll be a star? That's funny.

if i remember correctly the majority of falcon fans werent sold on Matt Ryan at all and were upset when we drafted him. look how that turned out.
Teams drafting a QB high are always gonna be taking a risk, it dont matter how "pro ready" you think they are.

JPP90
01-30-2011, 09:29 PM
if i remember correctly the majority of falcon fans werent sold on Matt Ryan at all and were upset when we drafted him. look how that turned out.
Teams drafting a QB high are always gonna be taking a risk, it dont matter how "pro ready" you think they are.

Matt Ryan threw a ton of interceptions his senior year. They had every right to be skeptical. His competition was Joe Flacco and Brian Brohm. In a better QB, having a season like he had, he'd have probably been nit-picked to death and over-analyzed. He threw a ton of passes but he still threw more interceptions as a senior and his comp percentage went down. That goes against the logic that you should "develop" and improve across the board from year to year as a top QB prospect.

Dam8610
01-30-2011, 10:08 PM
Locker isn't one of those guys that you let slide if you want him, though. If you want him, you better take him because he has certain tangible and intangible qualities that make him a franchise-type QB. You simply don't **** around with draft position when you're talking about a franchise-type QB. I have all 4 of them going in the Top 15. They all have franchise QB qualities.

Also, when was the last time trading back into the first round to take a QB worked?

Grossman? Fail. Ramsey? Fail. Boller? Fail. Losman? Fail. Quinn? Fail. Tebow? TBD (though I'm not sure he qualifies).

There's something to that. It's pussyfooting your QB situation. If you want to draft a QB, you have to be all-in and make the pick with confidence. Otherwise, don't do it at all.

Flacco worked out fairly decently.