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View Full Version : Mark Herzlich: Before & After?


foozball
02-01-2011, 12:17 PM
Can someone give me a scouting report of Herz before cancer and after? What do they expect from him in the NFL? What positions and what schemes does he fit?

Don Vito
02-01-2011, 12:22 PM
He still could be a very good NFL player, but he definitely is not the same player he was before cancer. He looked like a top 10 pick as a linebacker his junior year, he had it all. Size, athleticism, versatility, outstanding in coverage, great pass rusher, sure tackler, a knack for the big play, and all the intangibles. He did improve as this season went on, but he looks to have lost that extra burst that made him so special. I hope he stays healthy and continues to improve his game, he has already proved so much but to see him play at an elite level again would be special.

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 01:34 PM
He's in great shape right now physically and is starting to get him speed and endurance back. He's still not the same guy he was on tape a few years ago though. Sad to say that, but it's reality. I wouldn't bet against him getting back to that level personally though, seems to be a very driven individual. He's actually put on ten pounds since then and that's impressive given that he lost a lot during the treatment supposedly.

SolidGold
02-01-2011, 01:37 PM
All I can think of is when Vick came back with the Eagles last year, he looked slow and sluggish running the ball. A year of football conditioning and he was back to his old self. I think Herzelich can regain his former ability given a year in an NFL strength training program.

nepg
02-01-2011, 01:42 PM
The guy can play anywhere and do anything. He still has a ways to go to get into form, but he has Urlacher potential.

bigbluedefense
02-01-2011, 01:46 PM
I hope he falls and the Giants nab him. I'm still a fan, I think he can get back to form if you give him a year to develop.

The Giants pretty much redshirt all their rookies anyway, so it would be a worthy gamble in round 4 if he checks out medically.

sportslover
02-01-2011, 02:07 PM
Round 4? He won't go that low.

RaiderNation
02-01-2011, 02:15 PM
He is more of a late 2nd to mid 3rd right now

TACKLE
02-01-2011, 02:19 PM
Round 4? He won't go that low.

4th round isn't out of the question. The combine will be big for him as far as both how he test on the field and how he tests medically.

bigbluedefense
02-01-2011, 02:19 PM
You think so? People were killing him during the senior bowl. With his medical concerns and poor showing, I figure he's a 4th rounder at this point.

descendency
02-01-2011, 02:27 PM
If his burst is as bad as it looks, he could go in round 4. The combine could really hurt him or help him (because everyone is wondering what kind of athleticism he has post cancer)

TACKLE
02-01-2011, 02:34 PM
You think so? People were killing him during the senior bowl. With his medical concerns and poor showing, I figure he's a 4th rounder at this point.

I think you're right about that. He might get a bit higher if some team(s) falls in love with his character.

Nebula
02-01-2011, 02:35 PM
You think so? People were killing him during the senior bowl. With his medical concerns and poor showing, I figure he's a 4th rounder at this point.

"People were killing him" -- what do you mean by that exactly?

I love Herzlich. He may seem poor in coverage and slow in practices but he has extremely good game speed. His instincts and his ability to know where the ball is going before it gets there in coverage is what makes him special. I think his play overall is without question

However, the run defense part of his game is a little overrated by people. He is a solid run stuffer due to his tremendous instincts, but not elite. He has a tendency of playing with a high level against blockers which causes him to get washed out of the play. He has very good upper body strength so this clearly a technique issue and not a strength/mental toughness issue. With an extra offseason of a strength/conditioning program he will be an absolutely major steal.

Remember -- he had cancer in his lower leg. He couldn't work out on it so his burst and explosiveness had to take a step back.

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
02-01-2011, 02:42 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, but mine is to never doubt Mark Herzlich again.

SchizophrenicBatman
02-01-2011, 03:05 PM
I think he was overrated pre-cancer but now I think he's pretty much a lock to be good value to whoever drafts him

BUSTKUNTLAWL
02-01-2011, 03:27 PM
He's undraftable at this point.

Someone will take him in the 7th, but unfortunately, the cancer has taken a toll on his body.

He looked absolutely horrible in Mobile. Great story, great character, rooting for him, but he's in for a tough road.

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 03:56 PM
4th round isn't out of the question. The combine will be big for him as far as both how he test on the field and how he tests medically.

I think he'll test very well. He's in better shape than he's ever been in right now and looks the part. The raw numbers from the combine should be good. As to if he's back to how good he'll test will be another story.

cajuncorey
02-03-2011, 10:23 AM
he will be selected by the patriots, will be better than tedy bruschi

sincerly,
junior seau

Master Exploder
02-03-2011, 01:16 PM
He's undraftable at this point.

Someone will take him in the 7th, but unfortunately, the cancer has taken a toll on his body.

He looked absolutely horrible in Mobile. Great story, great character, rooting for him, but he's in for a tough road.

Well that's certainly not true.

SeanTaylorRIP
02-03-2011, 01:51 PM
All I can think of is when Vick came back with the Eagles last year, he looked slow and sluggish running the ball. A year of football conditioning and he was back to his old self. I think Herzelich can regain his former ability given a year in an NFL strength training program.

Difference is Vick was chilling in a federal prison, Herz was fighting cancer. Unfair for him but he might now ever regain form.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
02-03-2011, 04:25 PM
Well that's certainly not true.

Yes it is.

He's undraftable as a prospect.

Better story than player at this point. Someone will take a flier in the 7th, but the consensus around the league is he will never make an impact in the NFL.

Unfortunate, but true.

ElectricEye
02-03-2011, 04:26 PM
I'm really glad we've got someone with inside the NFL connections here. Awesome stuff man.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
02-03-2011, 04:31 PM
He looked awful in Mobile.

What scheme do you seriously think he can fit in?

Read around. The consensus was he was a huge disappointment.

ElectricEye
02-03-2011, 04:35 PM
3-4 ILB, 4-3 SAM, and the reports on this site did not say he looked awful. Neither did what I saw. He's a limited athlete in terms of change of direction at this point but others with similar limitations are in no way being penalized as much as you are asserting. There's also very little out there in terms of what scouts are saying to support your argument. I buy that he's more of a 3rd round prospect at this point but if Casey Matthews and Colin McCarthy have a chance to go in that area there's absolutely no reason Herzlich can't.

Nebula
02-03-2011, 05:00 PM
Yes it is.

He's undraftable as a prospect.

Better story than player at this point. Someone will take a flier in the 7th, but the consensus around the league is he will never make an impact in the NFL.

Unfortunate, but true.

As strong overstatement unless your definition of "making an impact" is a standard that is unnecessarily high. Herzlich has lost his burst, quickness, and athleticism but its not like that wasn't the only thing that made him a top 15 pick in the draft. He still has the instincts to be an NFL starter, terrific instincts actually. Plus its not out of the equation his athleticism could regain form. You saw he got stronger and faster as the season went on, he can only get better from here -- not steady or worse. He will get drafted within the first 4 rounds

the_dark_knight
02-04-2011, 03:10 PM
This guy has New England / Atlanta written all over him. I could see him go as high as say the 2nd round to Atlanta, but right now I'd say he's likely looking in the 4th round range due to me not expecting anything special out of him at the combine.

I do however think this young man is going to be a stud in the NFL, he's got too much talent and drive to not make an impact. At the end of the season he was able to make some of those old school plays, or at least cause some things to happen, give him a year of development under an NFL staff, this guy is going to end up being one of the best stories football has.

bam bam
02-04-2011, 05:12 PM
Baltimore needs some linebackers. I could see NE too.

A Perfect Score
02-04-2011, 06:11 PM
He's undraftable at this point.

Someone will take him in the 7th, but unfortunately, the cancer has taken a toll on his body.

He looked absolutely horrible in Mobile. Great story, great character, rooting for him, but he's in for a tough road.

He won't make it out of the third.

descendency
02-04-2011, 07:23 PM
Unless Herzlich can play OLB in 2 gap 34, I doubt NE would want him. ILBs are pretty much set for a while.

Our ILBs:
Jerod Mayo
Brandon Spikes
Gary Guyton
Dane Fletcher (who is the best coverage linebacker on the team)

a 5th man would be insane depth. Late 4th round value wouldn't be bad though.

nepg
02-04-2011, 07:56 PM
Herzlich is tough for the Pats. I really want him, but I like their linebackers. I think he can play both the Ninkovich and Guyton roles, so that makes him valuable. In a year or two, he should be ~20lbs bigger and fully recooperated...at which point we're talking about a guy who can be a Brian Urlacher (only Ray Lewis is close as far as guys who actually have played ILB in a 34) type on the inside or a Mike Vrabel type on the outside in a 34.

Tough to pass on him because of how good he's going to be, but also tough to pull the trigger because he's not as good as Guyton or Ninkovich right away.

regoob2
02-04-2011, 08:40 PM
Herzlich is tough for the Pats. I really want him, but I like their linebackers. I think he can play both the Ninkovich and Guyton roles, so that makes him valuable. In a year or two, he should be ~20lbs bigger and fully recooperated...at which point we're talking about a guy who can be a Brian Urlacher (only Ray Lewis is close as far as guys who actually have played ILB in a 34) type on the inside or a Mike Vrabel type on the outside in a 34.

Tough to pass on him because of how good he's going to be, but also tough to pull the trigger because he's not as good as Guyton or Ninkovich right away.
Um ya, he was never that good of a prospect.

ElectricEye
02-04-2011, 10:17 PM
Um ya, he was never that good of a prospect.

He was a legit top ten pick last year pre-cancer depending on who you talk to. I think he well could be a Brian Urlacher type player if he gets his lateral quickness back. Maybe not on the same level, but he has a comparable skillset at a similar size when he's healthy.

Don Vito
02-04-2011, 10:39 PM
Um ya, he was never that good of a prospect.

Not sure if serious....

If you are, go look at his 2008 game tape.

GoRavens
02-04-2011, 11:25 PM
Being from the Boston area, I love Herzlich as an old school smash mouth hard hitting leader. But he's eerily similar to Jarrett Johnson. Great in run support, overall tremendous versatility, but not a pass rushing nightmare, or a superb athlete. I say second round, to a team in a 3-4 scheme.
I honestly can't see him not ending up in New England.

batsandgats
02-06-2011, 04:45 AM
Every year fans think that the Patriots are going to select someone like Mark Herzlich, but it never happens. I see it every year in forums and and mock drafts but they pick someone else. I don't think this year will be any different.

SimonRath
02-06-2011, 06:18 AM
This guy has New England / Atlanta written all over him. I could see him go as high as say the 2nd round to Atlanta, but right now I'd say he's likely looking in the 4th round range due to me not expecting anything special out of him at the combine.

I do however think this young man is going to be a stud in the NFL, he's got too much talent and drive to not make an impact. At the end of the season he was able to make some of those old school plays, or at least cause some things to happen, give him a year of development under an NFL staff, this guy is going to end up being one of the best stories football has.

atlanta doesnt need a LB.. at least not one that high

descendency
02-06-2011, 06:50 AM
In a year or two, he should be ~20lbs bigger and fully recooperated...

He was 250 at the Senior Bowl, so he won't get 20 LBs bigger. He may recooperate though.

Ghost of Juice
02-06-2011, 01:55 PM
I would never bet against Mark Herzlich. Give him a year or two of NFL training he will be back to where he was pre-cancer. In 5 years we will be looking back and he will be the steal of the draft. You can't measure a man's heart and determination by any workouts, Mark Herzlich will not let himself fail.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
02-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Well that's certainly not true.

Undraftable

bigbluedefense
02-28-2011, 08:13 PM
I love Herzy, but he's a late round pick at best at this point. I think he goes undrafted.

I'm still rootin for ya Mark. This isn't the end of the road.

A Perfect Score
02-28-2011, 08:47 PM
Someone made an excellent point in the Combine thread that if Brandon Spikes can run a 5.0 and get drafted in the second round then Herzlich has a shot to go much higher then people around here are expecting. I definitely don't see a late round pick when I watch him play or when I watched him in drills today. I'd say 4th round sounds about right.

ElectricEye
02-28-2011, 08:56 PM
Disappointing. I really thought he was going to run not only a better time, but an excellent one. I really don't think this is a death blow to him being drafted and we see linebackers with similar issues with speed go fairly high in spots on a consistent basis. Factor in character and football instincts and you still have something to go on.

bigbluedefense
02-28-2011, 08:59 PM
Spikes didn't have a rod in his leg, or a fight with cancer.

Herz has a lot more to overcome than Spikes did.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
02-28-2011, 10:37 PM
He won't make it out of the third.

:O!

Still believe this?

descendency
02-28-2011, 10:39 PM
Every year fans think that the Patriots are going to select someone like Mark Herzlich, but it never happens. I see it every year in forums and and mock drafts but they pick someone else. I don't think this year will be any different.

Brandon Spikes?

Herzlich will NOT go undrafted. He looked quite good doing the skills portion.

Don Vito
02-28-2011, 10:41 PM
He may not get drafted very high but I am confident that he still will get a shot and you can never count him out. I would not be surprised to see him start one day, but if he doesn't it won't matter because he has already proved so much and he definitely will have a future outside football. One of the most inspirational sports stories ever, I really hope they make a movie or documentary about Herzy in the future. I still think he will get drafted and whoever chooses him will certainly be getting a player who will give everything he has, if he returns to anything close to his 2009 form then somebody will be getting a huge steal.

TNPatsFan
02-28-2011, 10:45 PM
I really never saw him play pre-cancer, but I watched a few BC games this year and he really didn't look good at all in my opinion. Barely looked like a draftable player to be honest. I hope he can get back to being a good/great player again, but I just didn't see it when I watched him this year.

Iamcanadian
02-28-2011, 10:47 PM
Sad, but inspiring story, but he'll go late in the draft. Bone cancer will scare off teams and his loss of athletic skills will downgrade him even further.
He'll make a team IMO as a special team's player and if he can stay completely heathy, just maybe some of his athletic ability will return in the future and he could start down the line, but that is a big if with a rod in him already.

edgrenade
02-28-2011, 11:00 PM
Was it just me, or did he look extremely tan today?

bam bam
03-01-2011, 06:59 AM
Was it just me, or did he look extremely tan today?

I know! And his lips were so voluptuous!

regoob2
03-01-2011, 08:13 AM
He was a legit top ten pick last year pre-cancer depending on who you talk to. I think he well could be a Brian Urlacher type player if he gets his lateral quickness back. Maybe not on the same level, but he has a comparable skillset at a similar size when he's healthy.

I never thought he was very athletic. He's stiff like a poor mans Aaron Curr who I also wasn't that high on. He could have been a good player but I never thought he was athletic enough to be special or warrant a 1st round pick let alone top 10.

Nebula
03-01-2011, 08:24 AM
Spikes didn't have a rod in his leg, or a fight with cancer.

Herz has a lot more to overcome than Spikes did.

That's the thing, he had cancer. He has an excuse to run a bad 40 because he is still going to get better and slowly regain his athleticism whereas Spikes is just slow. Just for that logic the guy is not going undrafted/late round, he won't make it out of the 4th round. Just too instinctive and talented.

regoob2
03-01-2011, 09:11 AM
That's the thing, he had cancer. He has an excuse to run a bad 40 because he is still going to get better and slowly regain his athleticism whereas Spikes is just slow. Just for that logic the guy is not going undrafted/late round, he won't make it out of the 4th round. Just too instinctive and talented.

I couldn't justify using even a mid rounder when you have no idea if he will rebound from it.

phlysac
03-01-2011, 09:14 AM
I couldn't justify using even a mid rounder when you have no idea if he will rebound from it.

Yeah, it's no longer the "cancer" that is as much of a concern as the metal rod fused into his leg. Disease removed from the discussion and ANY prospect would be highly scrutinized if they had that kind of anotomical situation.

Nebula
03-08-2011, 05:40 PM
I couldn't justify using even a mid rounder when you have no idea if he will rebound from it.

I think he can, he definitely has the work ethic to rebound from it. He is just going to get slowly athletically faster. As of now with this stage that he is at he is still a pretty good player.

Babylon
03-08-2011, 05:49 PM
Very similar size wise and athletically to Brandon Spikes when he came out of Florida last year. Spikes went in the latter part of the second and Herzy seems to be looked at less favorably. Probably has something to do with what expectations were at one time.

Nebula
03-08-2011, 06:00 PM
Very similar size wise and athletically to Brandon Spikes when he came out of Florida last year. Spikes went in the latter part of the second and Herzy seems to be looked at less favorably. Probably has something to do with what expectations were at one time.

I think you can make the argument that Herzlich is even faster and much better in coverage than what Spikes was coming out

SolidGold
03-08-2011, 06:02 PM
Very similar size wise and athletically to Brandon Spikes when he came out of Florida last year. Spikes went in the latter part of the second and Herzy seems to be looked at less favorably. Probably has something to do with what expectations were at one time.

I agree with Babylon. I think if Spikes can go in the 2nd with that 40 time, Herzy is worth a third/fourth round. Id take Herzy over Spikes in coverage but Spikes is the more physical presence in the middle.

Babylon
03-08-2011, 06:05 PM
I think you can make the argument that Herzlich is even faster and much better in coverage than what Spikes was coming out

Mark ran a 4.92 i believe at the combine, which he can probably improve on his pro day. Spikes wasnt the fleetest guy around either. I think both are really good in zone coverage.

descendency
03-08-2011, 06:39 PM
Mark ran a 4.92 i believe at the combine, which he can probably improve on his pro day. Spikes wasnt the fleetest guy around either. I think both are really good in zone coverage.

It's too bad the last position the Patriots need is another ILB (maybe TE or S if the Patriots trade Meriweather/Sanders). Especially not another 2 down linebacker that Spikes already does better than anyone from his draft class.

Ghost of Juice
03-08-2011, 06:42 PM
Mark ran a 4.92 i believe at the combine, which he can probably improve on his pro day. Spikes wasnt the fleetest guy around either. I think both are really good in zone coverage.

Spikes also ran his 40 at his pro day so it would have probably been even slower at the combine. I actually don't think it's herzy's speed I think it's his explosiveness. He just needs to get those legs back to full strength, whenever he does I bet his 40 would be around 4.7. I still think he goes somewhere between round 3 and 5. Do not count this man out!

Iamcanadian
03-08-2011, 06:43 PM
Unfortunately as sad and inspiring as his story is, pro football is a business and Herzlich has lost a step or 2 after his surgery with no guarantee he will get better. There is just as much likelihood that he might slip even farther.
I think a team will take a flier on him in rounds 5 thru 7 but that's all he can expect on draft day.
I hope he makes a full recovery at the next level and if he does he will exceed expectations but there are simply no guarantees that the cancer won't return so no team will use a top 4 round pick on him.

Nebula
03-08-2011, 07:39 PM
I hope he makes a full recovery at the next level and if he does he will exceed expectations but there are simply no guarantees that the cancer won't return so no team will use a top 4 round pick on him.

I originally thought this as well but according to Herzlich he stated that his case of cancer has an extremely low chance of returning. It was an interview he had recently 2-3 weeks ago, I may have to re-listen to it. But in the end he said people who don't have a cancer history of running in the family rarely have it come back again varying on the kind of cancer.

Iamcanadian
03-08-2011, 07:45 PM
I originally thought this as well but according to Herzlich he stated that his case of cancer has an extremely low chance of returning. It was an interview he had recently 2-3 weeks ago, I may have to re-listen to it. But in the end he said people who don't have a cancer history of running in the family rarely have it come back again varying on the kind of cancer.

Still not a guarantee and a team investing a high pick in Herzlich will be scared to death, never mind the chances that his athletic skill level will return.
Just too much there to risk a high pick on.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
04-30-2011, 08:12 PM
He won't make it out of the third.

You sure?

;)

descendency
04-30-2011, 09:13 PM
I really wish someone would have taken him. The Patriots won't be dealing with Tom Condon (his agent), but I would love to have him in a NE uniform. I'm disappointed he won't be here.

Though, I love our (inside) linebackers too.

Nebula
05-05-2011, 10:03 PM
It was reported on pft that it can take up to 18 months for him to get his speed back. If so, then watch out. I think his main flaw anyway is his speed and short area ability. The instincts are still there

Iamcanadian
05-06-2011, 12:37 PM
He is obviously not the same prospect he was before the cancer but I expect him to get some more of it back and won't be surprised if he makes a team on his grit alone.
I think he wasn't drafted because not only isn't he the same player but g-d forbid, the cancer could possibly return. Teams were also probably not sure if the plate on his bone would allow for a complete recovery.
I wish him luck, he needs some.

Brothgar
05-06-2011, 01:44 PM
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Mark Herzlich 2008/2009

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Mark Herzlich 2010 October 30

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Mark Herzlich 2010 November 20


Granted one was a highlight reel you can still tell he's lost a little but it looks like he is gaininig it back as the season went on.

Iamcanadian
05-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Unfortunately, the Combine performance was mediocre, cementing his UDFA status. He will no doubt get better and I think he has a shot and will get picked up, but only time will tell how much better he can get.

the_dark_knight
05-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Once he lands on an NFL roster I bet the kid works his way into a starting role. What made him special was never his athletic ability, it was his size and his ability to always put himself in the way. He always just ended up where the ball was, disrupting passes, disrupting the ball just a great playmaker for a defense. I would say he's like a younger version of Mike Peterson in Atlanta, more like when he was playing with J-ville.

Caulibflower
05-06-2011, 03:44 PM
Unfortunately, the Combine performance was mediocre, cementing his UDFA status. He will no doubt get better and I think he has a shot and will get picked up, but only time will tell how much better he can get.

In those videos from last year, he really doesn't look like a player who could've put up good numbers at the combine. He really looked slow and not very powerful... but cancer tends to do that to people. I'll definitely be interested to see how much he can get back, but I expect it'll be a few more years before anyone really knows.