PDA

View Full Version : Brooks Reed and Clay Matthews


jetsfan0099
02-01-2011, 04:57 PM
Was Clay Matthews a much better prospect coming into the draft??? Was he seen as a 3-4 OLB prospect before the Packers drafted him?? Was Matthews seen as a 1st rounder??

Difference is Reed played DE in college while Matthews play LB, so would Reed have an advantage with him being more used to rushing the passer???

How does Reed compare to him athletically, speed, agility, and strength?? That will probably not be determined until the combined...

Babylon
02-01-2011, 05:09 PM
Was Clay Matthews a much better prospect coming into the draft??? Was he seen as a 3-4 OLB prospect before the Packers drafted him?? Was Matthews seen as a 1st rounder??

Difference is Reed played DE in college while Matthews play LB, so would Reed have an advantage with him being more used to rushing the passer???

How does Reed compare to him athletically, speed, agility, and strength?? That will probably not be determined until the combined...

Matthews played mostly DE in college with Rey Rey in the middle and Cushing on the outside. I think where Matthews got everyone's attention was at the combine where he showed great agility and speed for a 240 lb guy.

Reed i think is probably a poor mans version of Clay at this point, if he too can max the combine then he can climb the charts pretty quickly. He can probably thank Matthews for establishing the mold there and we'll see how close of a copy he is.

Nebula
02-01-2011, 05:27 PM
Brooks Reed is nowhere near the level of Clay Matthews, sorry. I know he has long blond hair so its cute to make the comparison but lets not be ridiculous here. Reed does not have the burst, quickness, and explosive first step Matthews has. He has the motor -- but so do a lot of the other pass rushers in this class yet we don't compare them to Clay? Oh, yep, that's right -- Reed has hair just like Matthews so we have to make the comparison. I thought DC's "The next Clay Matthews" blog on the homepage was very unnecessary

K Train
02-01-2011, 05:31 PM
i had no idea where to place clay in the draft....cushing was obviously an OLB in a 43, Maualuga was obviously a 34 MLB (even though hes not one now oddly enough) and matthews was very tough to place for me....the packers got it right though, but it wasnt until the combine that he was really being placed anywhere

Babylon
02-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Brooks Reed is nowhere near the level of Clay Matthews, sorry. I know he has long blond hair so its cute to make the comparison but lets not be ridiculous here. Reed does not have the burst, quickness, and explosive first step Matthews has. He has the motor -- but so do a lot of the other pass rushers in this class yet we don't compare them to Clay? Oh, yep, that's right -- Reed has hair just like Matthews so we have to make the comparison. I thought DC's "The next Clay Matthews" blog on the homepage was very unnecessary

I think we're trying to compare them at similar stages in their careers. Reed probably has been more productive than Clay was at USC.

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 05:40 PM
There's so much revisionist history about Clay Matthews being this stellar prospect at this point. I LOVED the kid, but he had some major knocks too. Just like Reed, people doubted his athleticism. Go back and read some of Scott's blogs on Clay before the combine. People thought he too small and slow. This "elite first step/quickness burst" thing is crap. That's what people thought was holding Clay back as a prospect. He had about as much experience standing up and playing linebacker as Reed did too.

If anything, Reed is a better pure prospect than Matthews was at a similar point. He's just as good of an athlete at a larger size. Go back and watch some tape. He'll run in the 4.6's and is absolutely blazing off the line. He's also been a ton more productive. Matthews bloomed late and only had the necessary size/strength to make his way into the starting lineup at USC his Senior year. Reed has lot more good film on him than Matthews did coming out. The only real comparison between the two and the thing that make sit valid is the way that both of them move/how active they are made them both very good prospects outside in a 3-4 despite the lack of pass rush moves and elite sack numbers. They also both really made their name at the Senior Bowl. The hair thing I could care less about, but he's a similar transition type guy who it's not hard to see being a better player in a different role.

But yeah, it's going to be awfully popular to be like "LOL REED IS NO CLAY" because not many people talked about him/saw him play during the season and Clay is coming off of a DPOY type season. No one is saying Brooks Reed is for sure going to be the next Clay Matthews, but there are some key similarities that don't involve hair.

bengalsbuckeye_28
02-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Reed is a good prospect, I like him a lot more than Ricky Elmore at the next level mainly because Elmore lacks the athletic ability that I actually think Reed has. With that said the big difference between Reed and Matthews is the change of direction skills.

Matthews timed a 6.90 in the 3-cone drill in the combine. That's amazing for a defensive end/outside linebacker prospect. For a cornerback that's a fairly good time, not elite but good. Reed, well I haven't seen him drop into coverage much and when I have I don't see the quick feet and mobility in the hips and torso from Reed to replicate Matthews time. I see the explosiveness and natural pass rushing ability from Reed though. I'd take a second round flier on him with his ability, pending his combine times. Dude was really good in the senior bowl as well.

umphrey
02-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Yeah Clay was not an elite prospect by any means. Being a former walk on people questioned his athleticism, and playing with Mauluga (sp?) and Cushing people questioned his production as well, which wasn't stellar to begin with. Most people had both of those guys above him and Clay was the questionable third one. I remember people putting Clay either in the 20s or not in the first round that year.

Nebula
02-01-2011, 05:55 PM
There's so much revisionist history about Clay Matthews being this stellar prospect at this point. I LOVED the kid, but he had some major knocks too. Just like Reed, people doubted his athleticism. Go back and read some of Scott's blogs on Clay before the combine. People thought he too small and slow. This "elite first step/quickness burst" thing is crap. That's what people thought was holding Clay back as a prospect. He had about as much experience standing up and playing linebacker as Reed did too.

If anything, Reed is a better pure prospect than Matthews was at a similar point. He's just as good of an athlete at a larger size. Go back and watch some tape. He'll run in the 4.6's and is absolutely blazing off the line. He's also been a ton more productive. Matthews bloomed late and only had the necessary size/strength to make his way into the starting lineup at USC his Senior year. Reed has lot more good film on him than Matthews did coming out. The only real comparison between the two and the thing that make sit valid is the way that both of them move/how active they are made them both very good prospects outside in a 3-4 despite the lack of pass rush moves and elite sack numbers. They also both really made their name at the Senior Bowl. The hair thing I could care less about, but he's a similar transition type guy who it's not hard to see being a better player in a different role.

But yeah, it's going to be awfully popular to be like "LOL REED IS NO CLAY" because not many people talked about him/saw him play during the season and Clay is coming off of a DPOY type season. No one is saying Brooks Reed is for sure going to be the next Clay Matthews, but there are some key similarities that don't involve hair.

I don't understand you trying to make Brooks Reed the "underdog" here. If anything you're slightly overrating him if you're going to compare him to Clay Matthews at this point and time.

First and foremost, Brooks Reed is consensually a 3rd round pick. Matthews was a 2nd/3rd round pick before he blew up the combine and snuck into the 1st which Reed will not do so I don't see the comparison there (he preformed well at the senior bowl but not enough to spring himself into the first round like clay matthews or alualu did). Secondly, nobody is questioning his athleticism, but there is more to rushing the passer than just pure athleticism or size/strength/speed. Similar to Bowers, Reed lacks the elite burst and explosiveness off the ball that OLBs like james harrison and clay matthews have. You're supposed to have that naturally. It's what makes those OLBs so special. Reed will be a very good player in the NFL but not in the Clay Matthews' mold. He doesn't have that burst, quickness, and overall explosiveness off the ball to be an elite stand-up rusher. Just watch a couple of minutes of film on the guy and you will see it. He would be better off gaining some bulk and playing as a DE. He has other qualities as of a 3-4 OLB but not that burst and explosiveness.

Although brooks doesn't have the weight for it at the moment, he would be better off in a 4-3.

Babylon
02-01-2011, 05:56 PM
Reed is a good prospect, I like him a lot more than Ricky Elmore at the next level mainly because Elmore lacks the athletic ability that I actually think Reed has. With that said the big difference between Reed and Matthews is the change of direction skills.

Matthews timed a 6.90 in the 3-cone drill in the combine. That's amazing for a defensive end/outside linebacker prospect. For a cornerback that's a fairly good time, not elite but good. Reed, well I haven't seen him drop into coverage much and when I have I don't see the quick feet and mobility in the hips and torso from Reed to replicate Matthews time. I see the explosiveness and natural pass rushing ability from Reed though. I'd take a second round flier on him with his ability, pending his combine times. Dude was really good in the senior bowl as well.

I think he surprised a lot of people at the combine, he ran a low 4.6 35" vert, 4.12 short shuttle and 10.1 jump. The thing that probably dropped him a bit was a short resume on the field, in hindsight he'd go pretty high, probably 4th to Seattle, sigh.

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 06:09 PM
First and foremost, Brooks Reed is consensually a 3rd round pick.
Not according to most boards by scouting services. He's worked his way up to the top 50 for a lot of people and was probably a possibility in the second round before the Senior Bowl anyway.

Matthews was a 2nd/3rd round pick before he blew up the combine and snuck into the 1st which Reed will not do so I don't see the comparison there (he preformed well at the senior bowl but not enough to spring himself into the first round like clay matthews or alualu did).
Again, I'll trust my own eyes and what people are writing here. He was very good down in Mobile this week and was routinely getting by tackles that will likely go in the first round.

Secondly, nobody is questioning his athleticism, but there is more to rushing the passer than just pure athleticism or size/strength/speed. Similar to Bowers, Reed lacks the elite burst and explosiveness off the ball that OLBs like james harrison and clay matthews have. You're supposed to have that naturally. It's what makes those OLBs so special. Reed will be a very good player in the NFL but not in the Clay Matthews' mold. He doesn't have that burst, quickness, and overall explosiveness off the ball to be an elite stand-up rusher. Just watch a couple of minutes of film on the guy and you will see it. He would be better off gaining some bulk and playing as a DE. He has other qualities as of a 3-4 OLB but not that burst and explosiveness.
I've watched more than enough film on Reed. He's been my guy for awhile now even before the post Senior Bowl hype train started moving. Completely disagree with you on lacking an elite burst. That's what makes him so attractive. The book on him has always been that he'll play faster than he times but now that it's out there he's going to time lower people are flipping that around for some reason in order to distance themselves from liking him too much as a prospect. He'll run 4.6 and likely put up a good first ten yards too. Hell, his weakness would be that if doesn't beat the guy right off the line he doesn't have the moves to get by him.


Although brooks doesn't have the weight for it at the moment, he would be better off in a 4-3.
NFL Teams completely disagree with you. Reed has said in interviews that nearly ever team he has talked to views him as an OLB and very few are interested in playing him in a 4-3. Playing defensive end almost takes away from the things he does really well even.

Nebula
02-01-2011, 06:28 PM
Not according to most boards by scouting services. He's worked his way up to the top 50 for a lot of people and was probably a possibility in the second round before the Senior Bowl anyway.

But he's not sneaking into the first round which is my main point. Clay Matthews took a huge leap after his senior bowl and then combine. Reed had a decent senior bowl, really. His combine is still up in the air but I doubt he has a great combine like clay matthews did too


Again, I'll trust my own eyes and what people are writing here. He was very good down in Mobile this week and was routinely getting by tackles that will likely go in the first round.

This is a very average offensive tackle class. I think I only saw 1 one his sacks (I think he had 1.5 or 2 sacks, dunno) and that was more of the QB taking literally a 10-step drop and the tackle also stopped his feet and reached which was poor technique by him. Reed just went by him easily, yes, but when he went by him it wasn't in an "explosive manner" if that made sense. Costanazo (i believe it was) didn't reach and lean because Reed beat him off the line of scrimmage, he reached and leaned because the QB took a terrible drop and Reed easily had the angle.



I've watched more than enough film on Reed. He's been my guy for awhile now even before the post Senior Bowl hype train started moving. Completely disagree with you on lacking an elite burst. That's what makes him so attractive. The book on him has always been that he'll play faster than he times but now that it's out there he's going to time lower people are flipping that around for some reason in order to distance themselves from liking him too much as a prospect. He'll run 4.6 and likely put up a good first ten yards too. Hell, his weakness would be that if doesn't beat the guy right off the line he doesn't have the moves to get by him.

I really don't see that elite burst. I've seen him take over late in games because his terrific motor. He is like a robot that never stops and gives 100-100 on every play. But really, I just don't see his burst and explosiveness off the ball as his specialty. Its more of his technique/motor to me. He is not always the first player off the ball (and definitely not the senior bowl), if ever. And if he is, he doesn't stand out to you like a Clay Matthews. Matthews has his guy beat off the line nearly everytime because of his burst, I don't see that with Reed. I'd also have to disagree he lacks the move to turn his initial burst into sacks. I think he has a great combination of pass rush moves. I guess we've been really watching two different players.


NFL Teams completely disagree with you. Reed has said in interviews that nearly ever team he has talked to views him as an OLB and very few are interested in playing him in a 4-3. Playing defensive end almost takes away from the things he does really well even.

Yeah, this is true. But I think they see him as an OLB because of not only his frame but the other qualities for a linebacker -- like his fluidity, instincts, and run stuffing ability. I'm not even completely convinced if he can hold up in coverage. But he is not Clay Matthews in the sense that he has great quickness, burst, and explosive ability which is really how matthews made most of his plays in college.

FUNBUNCHER
02-01-2011, 07:02 PM
I thought Matthews was the best LB on that USC squad. Didn't think he'd make this kind of impact so early in the pros, ( helps to have future HOFer Kevin Greene as your LB coach!!), but in Clay's last year at USC, he was the playmaker on that D.

When he showed he had the athleticism to easily transition fulltime to OLB, I wanted him drafted by the SKins over Orakpo.

Maualuga(sp) was my next fave USB 'backer, and I thought Cushing would bust with the same injury problems he had in college.

I haven't seen Brooks Reed take one snap in college, but reading his profile and production, it leads me to believe once again there's incredible depth at OLB and OLB conversion prospects in this draft.

Soooo many guys look like potential starters in the pros it's ridiculous.

batsandgats
02-01-2011, 10:23 PM
rx-U9Vo__LQ

Reed is more athletic than given credit for.

That is a video of Jeff Maehl, look at the 36 second mark where Maehl gets a screen pass, Reed comes off of his assignment (he was fooled on a fake zone read and ran to the left for a few yards) and catches up with a db with an angle and then runs stride for stride for about 20 yards, this is after running at least over 30 yards to catch up. Clay Matthews didn't make that many plays in college, he was a late bloomer (grew a few inches in height during his college years) and wasn't suited for the 4-3 defense, where he played mostly DE. Reed put up 7 sacks this season and 8 his sophomore season when he was healthy. Clay Matthews had 4 sacks his best season at USC. From the video I have seen, like the video on the Brooks Reed link, he received more double teams than his teammate Elmore, and also has a nice spin move. He looks to have a good burst, it looks better than the db in this video.

wogitalia
02-02-2011, 01:34 AM
Brooks Reed is nowhere near the level of Clay Matthews, sorry. I know he has long blond hair so its cute to make the comparison but lets not be ridiculous here. Reed does not have the burst, quickness, and explosive first step Matthews has. He has the motor -- but so do a lot of the other pass rushers in this class yet we don't compare them to Clay? Oh, yep, that's right -- Reed has hair just like Matthews so we have to make the comparison. I thought DC's "The next Clay Matthews" blog on the homepage was very unnecessary

Yeah it has absolutely nothing to do with them both playing the same college positions, in the same division, being comparable sizes, projecting to the same positions, being high motor guys, who at the same point in the draft were considered comparable athletes who were self made, lowly recruited/walk on types that worked their asses off to be draftable prospects. Nope, it's entirely that they both have godlike hair...

Lets not forget that Matthews was a borderline first rounder after a very good senior bowl who then shattered the perceptions on him at the combine with some quite simply outstanding results. If Brooks can do the same there is no reason he can't shoot up to a middle 1st round grade.

JustDezIT
02-02-2011, 02:15 AM
I don't understand you trying to make Brooks Reed the "underdog" here. If anything you're slightly overrating him if you're going to compare him to Clay Matthews at this point and time.

First and foremost, Brooks Reed is consensually a 3rd round pick. Matthews was a 2nd/3rd round pick before he blew up the combine and snuck into the 1st which Reed will not do so I don't see the comparison there (he preformed well at the senior bowl but not enough to spring himself into the first round like clay matthews or alualu did). Secondly, nobody is questioning his athleticism, but there is more to rushing the passer than just pure athleticism or size/strength/speed. Similar to Bowers, Reed lacks the elite burst and explosiveness off the ball that OLBs like james harrison and clay matthews have. You're supposed to have that naturally. It's what makes those OLBs so special. Reed will be a very good player in the NFL but not in the Clay Matthews' mold. He doesn't have that burst, quickness, and overall explosiveness off the ball to be an elite stand-up rusher. Just watch a couple of minutes of film on the guy and you will see it. He would be better off gaining some bulk and playing as a DE. He has other qualities as of a 3-4 OLB but not that burst and explosiveness.

Although brooks doesn't have the weight for it at the moment, he would be better off in a 4-3.



are you kidding? Reed lacks burst and explosiveness? LMFAOOOOO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Omg this is to funny. LOL
/thread. Everybody take this clowns post with a grain of salt. You obviously have something against Reed.

ThePudge
02-02-2011, 05:03 AM
Did we really need ANOTHER (3rd in a week) Brooks Reed thread? I'm fine with the ideas in this thread, but to save space this discussion should probably be held in one of the other Brooks Reed threads. Forums are just starting to get a little busy so we might as well try to keep things organized.

brasho
02-02-2011, 03:47 PM
Brooks Reed is nowhere near the level of Clay Matthews, sorry. I know he has long blond hair so its cute to make the comparison but lets not be ridiculous here. Reed does not have the burst, quickness, and explosive first step Matthews has. He has the motor -- but so do a lot of the other pass rushers in this class yet we don't compare them to Clay? Oh, yep, that's right -- Reed has hair just like Matthews so we have to make the comparison. I thought DC's "The next Clay Matthews" blog on the homepage was very unnecessary

I don't think you realize how little Clay did in college. He didn't start until his senior year and had something like 6.5 sacks his entire college career. Reed had 8 sacks this season alone... and that was his 2nd best season. I'm not saying Reed is another Matthews, all I'm saying is that hindsight is no worse than 20/40 (people still don't see the whole picture here) and based on what we knew about Matthews when compared to Brooks Reed at the same time, Reed is the better prospect. It wasn't until Matthews ran a 1.49 10 yard split at the combine did his job take a giant leap forward. Reed is already 15 lbs heavier than Matthews was when he ran so regardless of what Reed runs at the combine, right now, at the same points in their evaluation processes, Brooks Reed was/is the better prospect.

brasho
02-02-2011, 03:51 PM
I think he surprised a lot of people at the combine, he ran a low 4.6 35" vert, 4.12 short shuttle and 10.1 jump. The thing that probably dropped him a bit was a short resume on the field, in hindsight he'd go pretty high, probably 4th to Seattle, sigh.

Actually he only ran officially at 4.67... it was his 1.49 10 yard split that opened up the eyes the most.

Of course if the teams could redraft, he might go way higher than 4th overall, but based on the information they had, Matthews was drafted right where he should've been... maybe even too high given his lack of production in college.

TimmG6376
02-02-2011, 06:53 PM
Actually he only ran officially at 4.67... it was his 1.49 10 yard split that opened up the eyes the most.

Of course if the teams could redraft, he might go way higher than 4th overall, but based on the information they had, Matthews was drafted right where he should've been... maybe even too high given his lack of production in college.

Yeah probably too high in a vacuum. Seemed like Thompson had a hunch that some other team was interested and didn't want to miss out on a guy he had highly rated.

Wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens again this year. Not necessarily trading up, but that pick at the end of the first might raise some eyebrows.

ElectricEye
02-02-2011, 06:56 PM
Clay was drafted a little high, but it really wasn't unreasonable with how well he played at the Senior Bowl and the practices during the week. Then he tested well too. You could just tell he was coming into his own as a player. Acceptable risk to draft him in that spot and one I regret that the Patriots did not make.

SenorGato
02-02-2011, 08:16 PM
I think a better comparison for Reed is Lamarr Woodley...but two white guys with long blonde hair who could end up playing the same position as pros...who could help themselves, right?

brasho
02-02-2011, 08:28 PM
I think a better comparison for Reed is Lamarr Woodley...but two white guys with long blonde hair who could end up playing the same position as pros...who could help themselves, right?

Woodley is a lot shorter though. How about Christie Brinkley or Farrah Fawcette? Tall, blonde hair, active (she was), nice physiques.

SenorGato
02-02-2011, 08:34 PM
Woodley is a lot shorter though. How about Christie Brinkley or Farrah Fawcette? Tall, blonde hair, active (she was), nice physiques.

Shorter by maybe an inch.

SimonRath
02-02-2011, 08:40 PM
rx-U9Vo__LQ

Reed is more athletic than given credit for.

That is a video of Jeff Maehl, look at the 36 second mark where Maehl gets a screen pass, Reed comes off of his assignment (he was fooled on a fake zone read and ran to the left for a few yards) and catches up with a db with an angle and then runs stride for stride for about 20 yards, this is after running at least over 30 yards to catch up. Clay Matthews didn't make that many plays in college, he was a late bloomer (grew a few inches in height during his college years) and wasn't suited for the 4-3 defense, where he played mostly DE. Reed put up 7 sacks this season and 8 his sophomore season when he was healthy. Clay Matthews had 4 sacks his best season at USC. From the video I have seen, like the video on the Brooks Reed link, he received more double teams than his teammate Elmore, and also has a nice spin move. He looks to have a good burst, it looks better than the db in this video.

OH EMM GEE. if he can catch up with a CB then he can easily tackle Chris Johnson 1 on 1 and take down Big Ben.

Nebula
02-02-2011, 08:43 PM
Yeah it has absolutely nothing to do with them both playing the same college positions, in the same division, being comparable sizes, projecting to the same positions, being high motor guys, who at the same point in the draft were considered comparable athletes who were self made, lowly recruited/walk on types that worked their asses off to be draftable prospects. Nope, it's entirely that they both have godlike hair...


Yeah, because Reed is the only player in this draft class that has a high motor, is likely to play OLB in the NFL, and has great work ethic. But lets just single out Reed as the next Clay Matthews while also these qualities are not the only things that make Matthews the special player that he is. Sure, terrific logic there buddy. And Reed's size isnt very similar to Clay Matthews' anyway

Lets not forget that Matthews was a borderline first rounder after a very good senior bowl who then shattered the perceptions on him at the combine with some quite simply outstanding results. If Brooks can do the same there is no reason he can't shoot up to a middle 1st round grade.

He's not going 1st round. He didn't have the senior bowl that Matthews did (matthews had a great senior bowl, reed was just decent) and no way do I see Reed posting Matthews' terrific combine numbers.

I'm not saying Reed is another Matthews, all I'm saying is that hindsight is no worse than 20/40 (people still don't see the whole picture here) and based on what we knew about Matthews when compared to Brooks Reed at the same time, Reed is the better prospect.

Good, because that's my argument here - he's not. He will be a solid OLB in a 3-4 but not an elite one like Matthews or others. Doesn't have the quickness, explosiveness, or burst that Matthews has. He has the motor (and long hair lol) that Clay does not much else. Can he even hold up in coverage too? Just don't see him being an elite OLB in the NFL let alone the next Clay Matthews. In my opinion you have to look at his attributes on the field, not his intangibles and he's having a solid draft season so far but not is not likely to blow up the combine like Matthews did. The guy still needs to shed some weight to even be a LB, ffs. Matthews was already a LB at USC.

ElectricEye
02-02-2011, 09:20 PM
Reed DID have a real good Senior Bowl. Same caliber one as Clay did really. Beat guys in the Pitt just as often. I saw both of them extensively both in practice and the game and there really wasn't much of a difference besides Clay getting a lot of looks at linebacker and Reed only doing so late in the week.

The fundamental impasse we're going to come to is on the burst factor because I clearly see Reed having that same caliber of acceleration. I'm not going out on a limb saying that either; many have his as a first round possibility now. He has as much upside as any 3-4 OLB in this draft. Not as safe a bet as some, but I could easily see him being a 10+ sack guy in the NFL if everything turns out right.

brasho
02-02-2011, 09:23 PM
Good, because that's my argument here - he's not. He will be a solid OLB in a 3-4 but not an elite one like Matthews or others. Doesn't have the quickness, explosiveness, or burst that Matthews has. He has the motor (and long hair lol) that Clay does not much else. Can he even hold up in coverage too? Just don't see him being an elite OLB in the NFL let alone the next Clay Matthews. In my opinion you have to look at his attributes on the field, not his intangibles and he's having a solid draft season so far but not is not likely to blow up the combine like Matthews did. The guy still needs to shed some weight to even be a LB, ffs. Matthews was already a LB at USC.

No, he's not as likely to blow up the combine, for one thing Matthews has already done it.. but my point is, is that based on everything we knew about Matthews at this point in the evaluation process, we didn't know he was going to run a 1.49 10 (which is elite)... As far as we knew, he was probably a 1.59-1.63 guy... and so like I said, based on what we knew then about Matthews, and what we know now about Reed, I would say that Reed is the better prospect at the same stage.

And like you said, Reed is not likely to blow it up like Matthews, few are expected to.

Actually, Matthews played LB very little at USC, he was a backup DE for most of his career at USC and only as a Senior did he become a starter at DE. He weighed 240 at the combine, and Reed weighs 255, I don't think he needs to gain or lose a single pound. I'm sure Matthews is closer to 255 right now than he is 240 anyway.

brasho
02-02-2011, 09:25 PM
Reed DID have a real good Senior Bowl. Same caliber one as Clay did really. Beat guys in the Pitt just as often. I saw both of them extensively both in practice and the game and there really wasn't much of a difference besides Clay getting a lot of looks at linebacker and Reed only doing so late in the week.

The fundamental impasse we're going to come to is on the burst factor because I clearly see Reed having that same caliber of acceleration. I'm not going out on a limb saying that either; many have his as a first round possibility now. He has as much upside as any 3-4 OLB in this draft. Not as safe a bet as some, but I could easily see him being a 10+ sack guy in the NFL if everything turns out right.

If he runs anywhere close to 1.49 I'd bet nobody gets a chance to take him at #32, that's for sure. There's only about 30 teams kicking themselves for selecting or trading up to select Matthews, GMs and Coaches don't like to be burnt twice.

ElectricEye
02-02-2011, 09:38 PM
I really don't want us to fall into this silly trap of thinking if Reed doesn't test as quick as Matthews it means he's not a first rounder talent though. Seems like it's setting itself up to be that way. Reed is a much bigger, stronger guy at this point and that was a knock on Matthews coming out. You're right that he doesn't need to lose or gain a single pound. He's got ideal size at this point and there's no reason to go away from that. Matthews at 250 likely puts up different(although no less impressive) numbers at the combine.

I don't know, I think there's some major similarities as pointed out in this thread but this is setting itself up to be one of those player comparisons people just run away with and end up debating absolutely meaningless stuff. They're comparable athletes and players, but no players in the NFL are identical and it doesn't mean that Reed can't be successful(or is guaranteed to be successful because Clay is).

wogitalia
02-02-2011, 09:50 PM
Nebula, stop comparing Matthews as he is now with Matthews as he was as a prospect, you just look like an idiot as a result.

Everyone here who has made the Matthews/Reed comparison as prospects has done so because of the similarities. In all reality at this stage of the process Reed is probably a superior prospect. Far better college production and an equally good Senior Bowl, if he times comparably he is every bit the prospect that Matthews was.

Just because you are a top prospect doesn't mean you will be a good pro and vice versa. Look at Tom Brady vs Ryan Leaf for example.

Reeds is a very solid prospect that compares favourably coming out with Matthews. There are FAR more similarities between their tool sets and history than just the hair.

Matthews was already a LB at USC.

See you just look stupid when you keep saying this despite numerous people proving you wrong. Matthews played predominantly as a DE with a few packages at LB. Remember that USC had 3 LBs on that team that were drafted, they played a 4-3 with Matthews at end for the majority of his college career, which was rather brief anyway.

Honestly, you don't seem like a stupid guy but try and think before just spewing out rubbish, it will go a long way.

ElectricEye
02-02-2011, 09:54 PM
Kaluka Maiava, Rey Maualuga, and Brian Cushing were the starters that year with Matthews playing the elephant role in USC's defense.

senormysterioso
02-02-2011, 10:26 PM
Reed is a guy that really stood out at the senior bowl to me. There's always a few guys at those practices that just make you go, "oh, who was that guy?" every time you see them. Reed was one of those guys, I personally like him more than Justin Houston.

jtice2003
02-02-2011, 10:41 PM
clay matthews has the luxury of playing on a great defense where he gets to basically freelance like troy palamalu does. this guy needs to land in a place that not only can he compete but, the he may can play. still may be a project, still may be a special teams guy but, there are always diamonds in the rough. i like this guys motor.

Nebula
02-03-2011, 06:15 PM
Nebula, stop comparing Matthews as he is now with Matthews as he was as a prospect, you just look like an idiot as a result.

How do you suggest Matthews made plays in college?

By nothing he's shown in the NFL today? Terrific logic, buddy. He made with his quickness in college which is pretty much what most tweeners do out of the draft (which matthews was obviously). He was 240 pounds but he made some plays with his hand in the dirt at times? How is that possible for a very undersized DE? With his very good quickness. Most of the things he did in his last season at USC is being shown in the NFL today. I'm really purely talking about the attributes of Matthews as a pass rusher not his intangibles which for some reason people think alone makes him similar to matthews. Brooks Reed is more of a "power technician" kind of a guy thana a "great inital burst, quick, elusive tweener" pass rusher that Matthews was. Both have great motors and long hair but have different skill sets as pass rushers. I don't know why you think my argument is so flawed or something. But of course, throw insults at me because you disagree with me.



Everyone here who has made the Matthews/Reed comparison as prospects has done so because of the similarities. In all reality at this stage of the process Reed is probably a superior prospect. Far better college production and an equally good Senior Bowl, if he times comparably he is every bit the prospect that Matthews was.

See, that's my argument here. So how did Clay Matthews make plays in college? His quickness, speed, burst, high motor, and explosiveness. How did Brooks Reed made plays? Technique, more leverage than burst, pass rush moves, and power. Clay Matthews was the classic tweener, they come out of the draft every year. Those "quick, explosive undersized tweeners" guys hardly become impact players in the NFL because they aren't in the right scheme or they don't gain weight (matthews did both as you know). Reed isn't really that kind of player, he doesn't fit into that mold. Call me an idiot for saying that, sure, but I'm sticking to it no matter how many insults you want to personally throw at me.


Reeds is a very solid prospect that compares favourably coming out with Matthews. There are FAR more similarities between their tool sets and history than just the hair.

History? Ok, every pass rusher in the draft that was a former walk on will be a great player. If anything, I think jeremy beal compares more favorably to Matthews than Reed does.


See you just look stupid when you keep saying this despite numerous people proving you wrong. Matthews played predominantly as a DE with a few packages at LB. Remember that USC had 3 LBs on that team that were drafted, they played a 4-3 with Matthews at end for the majority of his college career, which was rather brief anyway.

Honestly, you don't seem like a stupid guy but try and think before just spewing out rubbish, it will go a long way.

Sorry for being vague, I thought it goes without say. When I said that Matthews was already a LB, I'm talking about the things he did as a LB not how many snaps he lined up as linebacker. He had experience in space and experience as a stand-up rusher coming out of the draft which obviously OLBs will be asked to do unlike Reed who has played with his hand in the dirt more often than not. Only Reed's intangibles, motor, and long hair compares to Matthews; not much else as I already have explained.

wogitalia
02-03-2011, 08:06 PM
Only Reed's intangibles, motor, and long hair compares to Matthews; not much else as I already have explained.

I'm going to say that 1/2 an inch height and 10 lbs weight is not enough for them not to be very similar physically, not to mention they have the same sort of build. Reed has shown plenty of burst as a DE, very similar to Matthews who prior to his outstanding combine was also viewed as a technically sound and good athlete rather than outstanding athlete. Reed is in the same mould, looks to be a good athlete and uses good technique to beat players.

You are throwing out being a college DE in the PAC 10, both having excellent senior bowls, very similar physical builds/stats and similar game styles as being reasons to compare them. So you have intangibles, motor, hair, college position/conference, game style and both having great senior bowls playing at a position they didn't play in college and that they are very similar physically and yet you think it is unreasonable to compare the two?

No one is stupid enough to think they are the same player but they are most definitely a very comparable pair.

Nebula
02-03-2011, 09:00 PM
I'm going to say that 1/2 an inch height and 10 lbs weight is not enough for them not to be very similar physically, not to mention they have the same sort of build. Reed has shown plenty of burst as a DE, very similar to Matthews who prior to his outstanding combine was also viewed as a technically sound and good athlete rather than outstanding athlete. Reed is in the same mould, looks to be a good athlete and uses good technique to beat players.

You are throwing out being a college DE in the PAC 10, both having excellent senior bowls, very similar physical builds/stats and similar game styles as being reasons to compare them. So you have intangibles, motor, hair, college position/conference, game style and both having great senior bowls playing at a position they didn't play in college and that they are very similar physically and yet you think it is unreasonable to compare the two?

No one is stupid enough to think they are the same player but they are most definitely a very comparable pair.

****, I KNEW I shouldn't have typed that sentence. I had feeling you were just going to only quote that. I gave a couple of reasons why Brooks Reed doesn't compare to Clay Matthews. I'm not going to repeat myself, you know exactly what I just said as you just read it. You know what, nevermind I'll reply to your post it was good enough I guess.

I'm going to say that 1/2 an inch height and 10 lbs weight is not enough for them not to be very similar physically, not to mention they have the same sort of build.

You could be the same height and weight and look completely different. Matthews was a 240 pound tweener in college and through the draft proccess whereas Reed is someone who is 257 pounds and is still in the proccess of losing weight. From the looks of it, Clay Matthews had broader shoulders and better upper body strength. Reed doesn't really even have the frame of a LB, the guys lower body and legs are very thick which is expected for a DE of course. Of course official combine numbers will be a fair evaluation of the two but as of now you can make some correlations but they dont have near exactly similar builds.

Reed has shown plenty of burst as a DE, very similar to Matthews who prior to his outstanding combine was also viewed as a technically sound and good athlete rather than outstanding athlete. Reed is in the same mould, looks to be a good athlete and uses good technique to beat players

His burst isn't great. He flashes a burst off the ball at times but he is not consistently one of the first guys off the line of scrimmage (i'd say his teammate elmore is better in that category) and quite frankly maybe one of the last -- you even saw that at the senior bowl. "looks to be a good athlete and uses good technique to beat players" -- that's Reed and that is absolutely not Matthews. Matthews was a "high motor, quick, explosive undersized tweener" prospect who needed to gain strength and play in the right scheme. These players pretty much come out of the draft every year. Another case of Reed completely not being comparable to Matthews at all and this reason overwrites anything about them having similar intangibles, work habits, and other things. You are what you are as a pass rusher. A run stuffing, space eating, stout interior DT is different than an up the field, quick, explosive interior DT.

wogitalia
02-04-2011, 09:45 PM
You could be the same height and weight and look completely different. Matthews was a 240 pound tweener in college and through the draft proccess whereas Reed is someone who is 257 pounds and is still in the proccess of losing weight.

Just to clear it up, at the senior Bowl Matthews was closer to 250, I dare say that Reed will probably show up at the combine at closer to 250 because he is a guy that, if he is getting good advice, will know the 40 is pivotal to his stock.

They aren't identical athletes, but they are comparable, the tweener thing is a time thing, even since Matthews has been drafted the 3-4 has grown. 2 years ago people would be looking at Reed as a tweener also and saying he isn't big enough to play DE in the NFL and will have to make the switch to a 3-4. Now with the prevalence of the 3-4 people just look at him and go he is a 3-4 OLB. I think that physically they are comparable and the combine is going to be very interesting. Remember that Matthews tested FAR better than expected at the combine, his results really blew people away. Reed I think could easily do the same thing. If any of the college/HS numbers are to be believed he is every chance of being a standout at the combine.

Also, no doubt that Reed is a bit thicker than Matthews but not by a lot and as you said, one of the things Matthews needed was to add a bit of size to get to where Reed is now. You are still looking a physically similar athlete that project to the same position, imo.

I think you are trying to make them not comparable for the sake of it. You can't take the motor part out of them as pass rushers, that is part of their pass rushing and both are high motor rushers, both in college appeared to be good, rather than great, athletes, Reed had better technique but Matthews was very solid. I think being a bit smaller meant he relied on his speed more than Reed, moreso than there being a massive technical difference. I think the main thing is that both are good athlete, undersized, high motor college DEs coming out, that Reed may be a bit more stout and a bit more technically advanced probably has more to do with being more experienced than anything.

I think the combine is going to be very interesting, Reed will either make himself a 1st rounder or slip a fair bit depending largely on what he can do in the explosion tests.

There is a lot more to the comparison of the two than just the hair which was my main point!

J-Mike88
03-21-2011, 12:45 PM
Wogi,

After seeing Reed at the combine (to go along with his career playing real games), now how would you compare Reed with Matthews?

Roddoliver
03-21-2011, 03:46 PM
I would compare Von Miller to Clay Matthews. 6'3, around 240 for both at the Combine. A lot of athleticism and burst. Electric on the field. Miller was more productive in college, obviously.

TACKLE
03-21-2011, 03:52 PM
I would compare Von Miller to Clay Matthews. 6'3, around 240 for both at the Combine. A lot of athleticism and burst. Electric on the field. Miller was more productive in college, obviously.

I've heard that comparison a couple times and I guess I can buy it from a physical standpoint but their styles of play were much different. Clay was much more physical and much more powerful whereas Von is a lot more finesse but possess a better speed rush.

FUNBUNCHER
03-21-2011, 04:20 PM
It's easy to compare All-Pro CMII to arguably the best defensive prospect in the 2011 draft, but Clay Matthews coming out of USC wasn't considered nearly the same prospect as Von.

Von put up numbers at the combine like a safety, not a 6'3, 246# LB.

People are overlooking how rare and sick it is that Von Miller ran an electronic 4.4 at the combine, easily 2-tenths of a second faster than Matthews.

I remember CMIII primarily as a top notch playmaker with the best motor on that USC defense. Decent tools for OLB, but not rare.

VOn Miller has unheard of athletic ability for the LB position.

umphrey
03-21-2011, 04:31 PM
I remember CMIII primarily as a top notch playmaker with the best motor on that USC defense. Decent tools for OLB, but not rare.
Hindsight quote of the day? That defense had Rey Mauluaga and Brian Cushing on it.

Sportsfan486
03-21-2011, 04:38 PM
Hindsight quote of the day? That defense had Rey Mauluaga and Brian Cushing on it.

A decent amount of people did think Matthews was a superior prospect to either of those two. Probably not before the senior bowl and combine, however, and suggesting he was a superior linebacker at the college level is reaaaaally far-fetched.

I like the Reed and Matthews comparison. Definitely similar type of players.

The Matthews and Von Miller one I don't get. Even now Matthews isn't as much a speed rusher as a two move guy. He likes to spin and disengage off blocks, throw his guy off balance and cut inside, etc.. rather then just go for a speed rush (although he does that sometimes too.) He's turned into a versatile pass-rusher. Time will tell if Miller is a one-trick pony or can add that to his game.

Roddoliver
03-21-2011, 06:06 PM
I think Von Miller is so special that, as a Bronco fan, I want him at #2. Use the rest of the draft to fill the DT need, but please put Dumervil at RDE and Miller at SLB. Even an underachiever like Ayers would have a much easier path to the QB as a LDE.

descendency
03-21-2011, 06:37 PM
JJ Watt is a better comparison (even at 290 LBs) than Brooks Reed. If you look at the numbers, Brooks Reed's athleticism isn't special like Clay Matthews was. I think he's a project at OLB.

just realized this thread was pre-combine.

ElectricEye
03-21-2011, 06:39 PM
JJ Watt is a better comparison (even at 290 LBs) than Brooks Reed. If you look at the numbers, Brooks Reed's athleticism isn't special like Clay Matthews was. I think he's a project at OLB.

10 Yard Splits are cool...but not that cool. Football isn't a game of purely triangle numbers. Reed tested very well. Maybe not Clay Matthews level, but still. Things like playstyle and position come into play.

waazup
03-23-2011, 01:39 AM
Really, Reed is not that much less explosive than Matthews. His 1.54 10 yd split compares very favorably to Matthews 1.49. (Von Miller posted a 1.57 FYI)

On a side note, what do you guys think of Reed as a 4-3 SLB? Would he fit in the Saints defense?

TACKLE
03-23-2011, 01:57 AM
I don't really see the comp other than #42 and the long blonde hair. Clay and Brooks are different type athletes. Clay was smaller but much more fluid and moved a lot better.

bitonti
03-23-2011, 10:25 AM
Brooks Reed compares more like Brian Orakpo or Anthony Spencer than Matthews. he has insane strength to go with his burst. Clay does have better agility, explosion and is better in space.

In this crop Reed compares to Kerrigan, Quinn and Sam Acho... at least by the numbers.

Rashaan Salaam
03-23-2011, 10:41 AM
If you like Kevin Greene, you'll like Brooks Reed.

And NOT because of the hair..

descendency
03-23-2011, 10:47 AM
10 Yard Splits are cool...but not that cool. Football isn't a game of purely triangle numbers. Reed tested very well. Maybe not Clay Matthews level, but still. Things like playstyle and position come into play.

Matthews' and Watt's triangle numbers are almost identical. The only one I consider different is the 40 time and their H/W ratio. They both had near identical 20 yard cone times, 20 SS, broad jumps, high jumps, etc.

Watt is extremely athletic for a DE/DT type. Some even think Cam Jordan is more athletic.

edit: I wasn't saying that Reed tested poorly. Just that he doesn't compare to Clay Matthews directly.

Babylon
03-23-2011, 11:21 AM
I don't really see the comp other than #42 and the long blonde hair. Clay and Brooks are different type athletes. Clay was smaller but much more fluid and moved a lot better.

I think the comparisons are more of the two played on the end in college and project more to the LB position in the pros and obviously the hair, isnt it always about the hair?

Clay wore #47 at USC by the way.

TACKLE
03-23-2011, 12:25 PM
I think the comparisons are more of the two played on the end in college and project more to the LB position in the pros and obviously the hair, isnt it always about the hair?

Clay wore #47 at USC by the way.

Ahhhhhh. #47. I knew that. Don't know why I thought he was 42, maybe the 2 is his current number threw me off lol.

But also, both were project LB's to some extent but Clay actually played LB at SC so he was much more proven as both a stand up rusher and in coverage. I'm sure there were numerous 4-3 that were considering taking him as an OLB where that is not at all the case with Brooks. That's what I mean when I say they are different types of athletes.

FUNBUNCHER
03-23-2011, 03:42 PM
If you like Kevin Greene, you'll like Brooks Reed.

And NOT because of the hair..

You really need to re-read that, friend.

Vintage Kevin Greene would be THE best pass rushing 34 OLB right now, by a wide margin IMO.

KG had 8 seasons of 12+ sacks, and only Reggie White and Bruce Smith have more career sacks than Greene's 160.

Kevin Greene is the reason CMII exploded so quickly in the NFL, Clay was learning the arcane art of how to slip an OT and knock a QB unconscious from a jedi master.

If Brooks Reed is 50% the player that Kevin Greene was, he should be drafted top 15.

Rashaan Salaam
03-23-2011, 10:08 PM
You really need to re-read that, friend.

Vintage Kevin Greene would be THE best pass rushing 34 OLB right now, by a wide margin IMO.

KG had 8 seasons of 12+ sacks, and only Reggie White and Bruce Smith have more career sacks than Greene's 160.

Kevin Greene is the reason CMII exploded so quickly in the NFL, Clay was learning the arcane art of how to slip an OT and knock a QB unconscious from a jedi master.

If Brooks Reed is 50% the player that Kevin Greene was, he should be drafted top 15.

K Greene was also a 5th round pick.. I'm comparing the same skill set coming out of college and where they were projected to be drafted. Kevin Greene coming out of college was Brooks Reed. so, my statement has a LOT of merit

FUNBUNCHER
03-23-2011, 10:21 PM
K Greene was also a 5th round pick.. I'm comparing the same skill set coming out of college and where they were projected to be drafted. Kevin Greene coming out of college was Brooks Reed. so, my statement has a LOT of merit


Maybe as prospects, (which is a stretch because I doubt there are any scouting reports around from the mid 1980s on KG),but you're still comparing Reed to a future HOFer and possibly the best pass rushing 34 OLB in the history of the game.

We already have Kevin Greene's entire rap sheet from his NFL career, and he was a serial killa.

To say that if you liked Kevin Greene, you'll like Brooks Reed, I assume you're talking about Kevin Green the All-Pro, not the former walk-on DE from Auburn.

Who the heck remembers watching Kevin Greene in college???('81-'84)

Nice try though.

I hope Brooks Reed has that type of game in the pros.

descendency
03-23-2011, 10:21 PM
K Greene was also a 5th round pick.. I'm comparing the same skill set coming out of college and where they were projected to be drafted. Kevin Greene coming out of college was Brooks Reed. so, my statement has a LOT of merit

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick, but if you compare a QB to Tom Brady and you don't take him #1 overall - you should be fired.

The scouting process evolves. When you make a mistake (like letting Kevin Greene fall to the 5th round) you have to stop doing it. Plus, the game has changed since KG was drafted. I mean, you wouldn't draft a fullback #9 overall. ("Touchdown" Tommy Vardell)

batsandgats
03-23-2011, 11:46 PM
why did Kevin Greene bounce around the league so much? Looking at his stat sheet, he would be doing great and then the next year would be on another team. He went from the Rams to the Steelers, to the Panthers to the 49ers back to the Panthers.

FUNBUNCHER
03-24-2011, 06:46 AM
why did Kevin Greene bounce around the league so much? Looking at his stat sheet, he would be doing great and then the next year would be on another team. He went from the Rams to the Steelers, to the Panthers to the 49ers back to the Panthers.

I think it was a money issue and KG's teams thinking 'yeah, he's good, but not worth being the highest paid player at his position.'

THe Rams were idiots for letting him go, the Steelers simply followed their M.O., don't know what happened with SF, and the Panthers...who knows??

Rashaan Salaam
03-24-2011, 06:59 AM
Maybe as prospects, (which is a stretch because I doubt there are any scouting reports around from the mid 1980s on KG),but you're still comparing Reed to a future HOFer and possibly the best pass rushing 34 OLB in the history of the game.

We already have Kevin Greene's entire rap sheet from his NFL career, and he was a serial killa.

To say that if you liked Kevin Greene, you'll like Brooks Reed, I assume you're talking about Kevin Green the All-Pro, not the former walk-on DE from Auburn.

Who the heck remembers watching Kevin Greene in college???('81-'84)

Nice try though.

I hope Brooks Reed has that type of game in the pros.

I watch a LOT of football buddy... the comparisons hold weight.

www.youtube.com/footballgameplan

J-Mike88
03-24-2011, 09:17 AM
I watch a LOT of football buddy... the comparisons hold weight.

www.youtube.com/footballgameplan
I agree with you for the most part, but isn't it Bruce Miller that the video compares to Kevin Greene?

By the way, to each their own.....some people see this guy or that guy when they look at a prospect. Only time will tell.

For someone to tell you you're wrong when you see a playing style similar to Greene, well they're wrong. I don't see you predicting the same NFL success, just that as a prospect, you compare them in terms of style, etc.

I remember people comparing David Carr to Troy Aikman, and Charles Rogers to Cris Carter.

Rashaan Salaam
03-24-2011, 09:24 AM
I agree with you for the most part, but isn't it Bruce Miller that the video compares to Kevin Greene?

By the way, to each their own.....some people see this guy or that guy when they look at a prospect. Only time will tell.

For someone to tell you you're wrong when you see a playing style similar to Greene, well they're wrong. I don't see you predicting the same NFL success, just that as a prospect, you compare them in terms of style, etc.

I remember people comparing David Carr to Troy Aikman, and Charles Rogers to Cris Carter.

I agree! Its not comparing the NFL success..its just the skill set and style, which is why I compared AJ Green to Charles Rogers and Austin Pettis to Cris Carter...

Yep...The reason I compared Bruce Miller to Greene is because of his Relentlessness..same type of trait. To me, Matt Roth and Kevin Greene is a good mesh of talent for Brooks Reed.

HakeemtheMachine
03-24-2011, 10:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJsoc-5_9z0

Posted this a couple minutes ago

Brooks Reed vs ASU

pablowest
04-08-2011, 06:14 AM
If you like Kevin Greene, you'll like Brooks Reed. they both live in north carolina mountain homes (http://www.fallcreekland.com/) near my parents in western N.C.

And NOT because of the hair..

Yeah right. I agree with you. I think that I like them both. :D