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87Canes
02-01-2011, 06:47 PM
Why do some mock drafts have teams in a 3-4 set taking Robert Quinn to play ROLB? The guy is 6'5" 270lbs and is clearly a better 4-3 prospect with his size.

Football is a game of leverage. Low man wins....so why would I wan't a 6'5" LB in a 2 pt stance going up against the opposing teams LT?

I've seen several mock drafts with the Cardinals and Texans taking Quinn and I have yet to understand why. Too many NFL GM's or supposed experts are to keen on finding the next great 3-4 ROLB to rush the passer and forget about the actual strengths of the player.

If I were running a 3-4 pro defense, my LBs wouldn't exceed 6'5" in length and 255 in weight. I want my guys to be lower than the tackle they're going against so they can gain leverage over them every time. Look at Elvis Dumerveil, James Harrison, Tamba Hali who all are under 6'2"...

The height of Quinn doesn't bother me as much as his weight does for a 3-4 OLB. What about if he has to drop back in coverage? If I'm an OC and I see they're just using him to rush and dropping a nickel back to cover his zone or a FS, I'm going to pick on the opposite side of the field since they're will be less defenders on that side.

Please elaborate further draftniks...

Nebula
02-01-2011, 07:00 PM
Disagree, although his weight sounds good his frame is pretty average. I think he is better as a 3-4 OLB, his burst is absolutely amazing. Teams in college football have to gameplan around his burst off the ball, he beats his guy off the line nearly everytime. He will be a stud as a stand-up pass rushing OLB in a 3-4

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 07:04 PM
3-4 Teams showed interest in Julius Peppers this off season. It's not nearly as big of an issue as you think. We don't know for sure Quinn weighs 270 either. I've seen as low as 255.

A Perfect Score
02-01-2011, 07:04 PM
You mention Dumervil, Harrison and Hali, but both Shawn Merriman and Demarcus Ware are both 6'4, 265. There are plenty of excellent (or in this case, formerly excellent) 3-4 OLBs who are Quinn's height. Quinn is more then capable of playing in a 3-4. In fact, one of his greatest attributes as a prospect is that he's scheme versatile. He could work as a weakside end in a 4-3 scheme, and I know that Scott really likes him there, but he's fluid in his movements and with experience could learn to maneuver in space and in coverage. Alot of people like placing premier pass rushers in 3-4 systems because it gives them a wider angle when attacking the offensive tackle and more space is involved, meaning there is a lesser chance of the OT getting locked in.

Quinn will be fine in either scheme. Nothing about his height/weight suggests to me that he's incapable of playing in a 3-4.

TACKLE
02-01-2011, 07:14 PM
Robert Quinn - 6'4 265 (est.)
Tamba Hali - 6'3 275
DeMarcus Ware - 6'4 262
Terrell Suggs - 6'3 265

It's not like he's lacking athleticism at all. As a 3-4 OLB, he'll be just fine at that size.

San Diego Chicken
02-01-2011, 07:27 PM
Don't forget about Jason Taylor too. Didn't always play in a strict 3-4 but was in two point stance quite a bit. 6'6'', 255.

descendency
02-01-2011, 08:00 PM
Leverage is hard to get when a guy has a burst off the ball.

Nebula
02-01-2011, 08:07 PM
Leverage is hard to get when a guy has a burst off the ball.

Which is why he would play his best in a 3-4

FUNBUNCHER
02-01-2011, 08:07 PM
Remember Peter Boulware??

That's why teams see Quinn as a potential world beater at 34 OLB.

All depends who drafts him, but I can easily see Quinn making the transition to playing standing up.

I think Quinn is a difference maker in any scheme and why I believe he goes in the top 15.

Duffman57
02-01-2011, 08:25 PM
Shaun Merriman 6'4.5" 275 4.6 40 coming out...

DeMarcus Ware 6'5" 265 4.5 40

Terrell Suggs 6'4" 260 4.6

Manny Lawson 6'6" 241 4.4

Michael Johnson 6'7" 266 4.6 (Starts at OLB for the Bengals IIRC)

There are more, i just cant remember. Him likely coming in at 6'4" and weighing at like 265, is not close to an issue. Reminds me a LOT of Terrell Suggs.

87Canes
02-01-2011, 09:55 PM
All good points. Any comment regarding Merriman I disregard because that guys been on roids since his Maryland days.

My numbers were off on Hali so my bad on that one. So after reviewing some numbers, looks like Quinn would fit in with other 3-4 OLB's that are successful in the league. Guess I'd just be worried about his versatility between rushing and covering. I never dive into stats too much but I've never known Suggs, Ware or Hali to be good coverage LBs but that's not really the responsibility of a WOLB in a 3-4 system.

I'd still prefer to run him in a 4-3 defense with his hand down in the ground. Quinn is an amazing pass rusher so as long as he lands on a team with a good 3-4 scheme, he should be productive.

Manny Lawson has been a bust and would be more beneficial if the 49ers ran a 4-3. His former college teammate may struggle in the 3-4 scheme now that the Texans will be running a 3-4. Will Super Mario be able to play a WDE in a 3-4 or will they stand his HUGE frame up and make him rush off the edge as a WOLB?

descendency
02-01-2011, 10:03 PM
There are 34 OLBs who are almost strictly pass rushers. They get to the QB by being quick inside, quick outside, changing sides, etc.

On a rare occassion, they drop back and you throw the ball right at them because they blitz so much... and then they drop it.

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 10:09 PM
Manny Lawson is actually a really good linebacker in a 3-4, but not a good pass rusher. I've been very impressed with the sheer number of things you can have him do to help a defense...but he's not really a master of any of them. I wouldn't call him a bust, but he certainly hasn't lived up to his potential. He's still a real good piece player and did not fail out completely.

As far as the general 3-4 OLB versus DE thing goes, I think we're starting to see some of those border torn down anyway. There's obviously guys who are better off playing DE in a 4-3 still(Adrian Clayborn ect) but with the prevalence of the 3-4 these days in conjunction with the demand for pass rushers guys are finding ways to make it work. Tamba Hali is an example of a guy who just a few years ago I would have said was crazy to make into an OLB. Pretty sure he's lost some weight down then and it's helped his mobility...but if you can get to the passer they're going to find a place for you in the NFL regardless of scheme. The thing I'm interested in is how Houston will use Mario Williams when they switch over to a 3-4 next year. That will be interesting to see haha.

But as far as Quinn goes, I think he's fluid enough to be taught to be a decent player in coverage. He's certainly not hurting to athleticism and he doesn't really strike me as a straight line athlete either. As long as you restrict the responsibilities a bit as you do with all OLB predominantly responsible for rushing the passer, it shouldn't be a real problem.

Duffman57
02-01-2011, 10:10 PM
All good points. Any comment regarding Merriman I disregard because that guys been on roids since his Maryland days.

My numbers were off on Hali so my bad on that one. So after reviewing some numbers, looks like Quinn would fit in with other 3-4 OLB's that are successful in the league. Guess I'd just be worried about his versatility between rushing and covering. I never dive into stats too much but I've never known Suggs, Ware or Hali to be good coverage LBs but that's not really the responsibility of a WOLB in a 3-4 system.

I'd still prefer to run him in a 4-3 defense with his hand down in the ground. Quinn is an amazing pass rusher so as long as he lands on a team with a good 3-4 scheme, he should be productive.

Manny Lawson has been a bust and would be more beneficial if the 49ers ran a 4-3. His former college teammate may struggle in the 3-4 scheme now that the Texans will be running a 3-4. Will Super Mario be able to play a WDE in a 3-4 or will they stand his HUGE frame up and make him rush off the edge as a WOLB?

lol where did u get that from? Merriman had one positive test in his entire NFL career out of quite a few.

keylime_5
02-01-2011, 10:16 PM
yeah, he is probably closer to 6'4"/260 than he is 6'5"/270 and some people think that he is a better fit in a 3-4 than he is in a 4-3 because the best part of his game is not being stout against the run, it is rushing the passer - and he's definitely athletic enough to play in a 2 point stance. Definitely a versatile player who is a weakside pass rusher in any system.

87Canes
02-01-2011, 10:18 PM
Manny Lawson is actually a really good linebacker in a 3-4, but not a good pass rusher. I've been very impressed with the sheer number of things you can have him do to help a defense...but he's not really a master of any of them. I wouldn't call him a bust, but he certainly hasn't lived up to his potential. He's still a real good piece player and did not fail out completely.

As far as the general 3-4 OLB versus DE thing goes, I think we're starting to see some of those border torn down anyway. There's obviously guys who are better off playing DE in a 4-3 still(Adrian Clayborn ect) but with the prevalence of the 3-4 these days in conjunction with the demand for pass rushers guys are finding ways to make it work. Tamba Hali is an example of a guy who just a few years ago I would have said was crazy to make into an OLB. Pretty sure he's lost some weight down then and it's helped his mobility...but if you can get to the passer they're going to find a place for you in the NFL regardless of scheme. The thing I'm interested in is how Houston will use Mario Williams when they switch over to a 3-4 next year. That will be interesting to see haha.

But as far as Quinn goes, I think he's fluid enough to be taught to be a decent player in coverage. He's certainly not hurting to athleticism and he doesn't really strike me as a straight line athlete either. As long as you restrict the responsibilities a bit as you do with all OLB predominantly responsible for rushing the passer, it shouldn't be a real problem.

Manny Lawson is a decent LB that is very well in coverage because of his speed and has fluid hips. He compliments Spikes and P Willis well in the 3-4 system that the Niners have ran the last couple years.

I like Robert Quinn a lot and actually any DE from a Butch Davis coached college team is just right out a baller. Quinton Coples should fill #42's huge shoes next year and Donte Paige-Moss should also be able to bring the heat opposite side of Coples. Davis is a NFL producing college coach like no other and his DC Everett Whiters knows defense like the best of them. Butch Davis is the reason why Miami was able to maintain the 1st round streak for as long as they did.

Schemes are changing year by year and without adjustments, you'll only far behind so coaches are always on the lookout for the next "hybrid" and Quinn seems to fit that mold. Holmgren/Shurmur would be silly dumb to pass up on Quinn. I don't see Carolina taking a DE. Denver will probably pass as well as they need DT's, Buffalo may take him but since they run a 3-4, I'm sure they'll be looking for a NT so it would be a perfect fit in Cleveland. He would be the gemstone of a 4-3 defense in Cleveland with big Shaun Rogers stuffing the middle as an oversized 3 technique.

ElectricEye
02-01-2011, 10:21 PM
I agree about Coples. I don't think he'll end up being quite the same level of prospect that Quinn is in the end, but he's another super athletic guy to keep an eye on.

87Canes
02-01-2011, 10:21 PM
lol where did u get that from? Merriman had one positive test in his entire NFL career out of quite a few.

Read a story in an ESPN mag several years ago about Merriman being on "meds" since he was in HS. Tests are easy to overcome...what stands out the most is how has his performance taken such a drastic decline since he tested positive? His injuries? Let's not blame the injuries...

87Canes
02-01-2011, 10:22 PM
lol where did u get that from? Merriman had one positive test in his entire NFL career out of quite a few.

Where did you get that he only tested positive on 1 test out of multiple?

Duffman57
02-01-2011, 11:05 PM
Read a story in an ESPN mag several years ago about Merriman being on "meds" since he was in HS. Tests are easy to overcome...what stands out the most is how has his performance taken such a drastic decline since he tested positive? His injuries? Let's not blame the injuries...

Actually not. He tested positive early in the offseason before the 06 season, and then served his suspension and came off his suspention with a performace of 10 sacks in the last 6 games of the season, and then came out with a 12 sack season in 07, before Jeff Fisher sent his players after his knee.

Duffman57
02-01-2011, 11:05 PM
Where did you get that he only tested positive on 1 test out of multiple?

I read a few articles about it when it happened.

A Perfect Score
02-01-2011, 11:10 PM
Remember Peter Boulware??

That's why teams see Quinn as a potential world beater at 34 OLB.

All depends who drafts him, but I can easily see Quinn making the transition to playing standing up.

I think Quinn is a difference maker in any scheme and why I believe he goes in the top 15.

Peter Boulware played primarily in a 4-3 system, for the record. He blitzed a ton, but he wasn't playing OLB in a 3-4 for the majority of his career. He was a weakside 4-3 backer.

FUNBUNCHER
02-01-2011, 11:37 PM
lol where did u get that from? Merriman had one positive test in his entire NFL career out of quite a few.


I don't know when Merriman started using, but I won't be naive and assume it was only when he got to the NFL.

This is the same guy who was 170# as a HS freshman.
Sure Merriman isn't the only one in big time football to use or is currently using PEDs, but he's the one whose game has fallen off the most once he came off the juice.

Big_Pete
02-01-2011, 11:50 PM
Robert Quinn - 6'4 265 (est.)
Tamba Hali - 6'3 275
DeMarcus Ware - 6'4 262
Terrell Suggs - 6'3 265

It's not like he's lacking athleticism at all. As a 3-4 OLB, he'll be just fine at that size.

there is also

Brian Orakpo, Shawn Merriman, Robert Ayers, Matt Roth, Mike Vrabel (and undoubtedly many others) who have been bigger 3-4 OLBs

don't forget Jason Pierre-Paul was seriously discussed as a possible 3-4 OLB as well as is Aldon Smith this year.

It comes back to quickness and athleticism, from all reports Quinn has both. Sure he may be a better 4-3 DE, but that doesn't mean he can't play 3-4 OLB for the right team/system (remember not all 3-4 schemes are the same).

Bills2083
02-02-2011, 12:01 AM
Schemes are changing year by year and without adjustments, you'll only far behind so coaches are always on the lookout for the next "hybrid" and Quinn seems to fit that mold. Holmgren/Shurmur would be silly dumb to pass up on Quinn. I don't see Carolina taking a DE. Denver will probably pass as well as they need DT's, Buffalo may take him but since they run a 3-4, I'm sure they'll be looking for a NT so it would be a perfect fit in Cleveland. He would be the gemstone of a 4-3 defense in Cleveland with big Shaun Rogers stuffing the middle as an oversized 3 technique.

Kyle Williams says hello.
The Bills are set at nose tackle - Williams and Troup are a good tandem. We need DEs, ILBs, and OLBs. Someone such as Quinn would be a good pick for us, as he can play OLB in the 3-4, as well as DE in a 4-3, if we ever transition to it.

Duffman57
02-02-2011, 12:52 AM
I don't know when Merriman started using, but I won't be naive and assume it was only when he got to the NFL.

This is the same guy who was 170# as a HS freshman.
Sure Merriman isn't the only one in big time football to use or is currently using PEDs, but he's the one whose game has fallen off the most once he came off the juice.

So he gained 100 lbs in 8 years? Thats not all that hard to do, especially with a work ethic like his (he was always a freak when working out in terms of what he did and how hard he worked). Cushing weighed 160 as a Jr or Sr in HS, and got up to 265 in 4 years.

Look at the stats, he had his 1.5 best seasons off the juice until he got his knee taken out.

So i wont be Naive and make claims with absolutely no proof behind them like saying that his falloff was due to his "getting off the juice" because you want to hate on a guy who tested positive for steroids.

FUNBUNCHER
02-02-2011, 06:12 AM
So he gained 100 lbs in 8 years? Thats not all that hard to do, especially with a work ethic like his (he was always a freak when working out in terms of what he did and how hard he worked). Cushing weighed 160 as a Jr or Sr in HS, and got up to 265 in 4 years.

Look at the stats, he had his 1.5 best seasons off the juice until he got his knee taken out.

So i wont be Naive and make claims with absolutely no proof behind them like saying that his falloff was due to his "getting off the juice" because you want to hate on a guy who tested positive for steroids.

Check the bolded, there's a reason why athletes take PEDs.

It's possible to gain that much weight, but it's far from 'normal', (read: RARE AS HELL).

I don't know if Shawne said in an interview that he weighed 170# as a HS freshman or sophomore, but as a sophomore at UMD, he was 245#.

That's not 8 years, that's 4-5 years. Most athletes as a rule you don't see putting on that much lean muscle weight in so short a period of time.

And say what you will, but Merriman's power game DID fall off a cliff once he got pinched for using the gear.

Maybe that's coincidental, maybe it wasn't.
I tend to see a correlation, and possibly the SD Chargers FO did too and why they let the man walk for nothing.

You're off base about Cushing, he was never that small as a junior/senior in HS.
Clay Matthews was the guy who had the 'growth spurt'.

Duffman57
02-02-2011, 05:47 PM
Check the bolded, there's a reason why athletes take PEDs.

It's possible to gain that much weight, but it's far from 'normal', (read: RARE AS HELL).

I don't know if Shawne said in an interview that he weighed 170# as a HS freshman or sophomore, but as a sophomore at UMD, he was 245#.

That's not 8 years, that's 4-5 years. Most athletes as a rule you don't see putting on that much lean muscle weight in so short a period of time.

And say what you will, but Merriman's power game DID fall off a cliff once he got pinched for using the gear.

Maybe that's coincidental, maybe it wasn't.
I tend to see a correlation, and possibly the SD Chargers FO did too and why they let the man walk for nothing.

You're off base about Cushing, he was never that small as a junior/senior in HS.
Clay Matthews was the guy who had the 'growth spurt'.

It may not be normal, but coming form a school that just produces freaks from nobodies, there's no reason to assume that he was on steriods all the way through, and if you do, you have to assume, that Bruce Campbell, Vernon Davis and all the other freaks that went/go to Maryland.

And yah, his burst completely went when he tore his ACL and MCL, that can happen when you destroy your knee...

And i dont care about which one it was, either way, the guy went from 6' 160 to 6'3" 255 in 4-5 years. Thats 20-25 lbs a year. Its not too hard to add 10-12 lbs a year, but double that is a LOT. Is it completely natural? No, but if you are in the right weight program (Maryland), and have a great work ethic (Like Merrimans), its not all that big of a stretch. People lose/gain 10-12 lbs in the time the season ends, till the draft, even from the sr/shrine game to the combine. To do it over an entire year isn't as much as it seems when you break it down (170 to 270 in 8 years is 12.5 lbs a year). And i dont care if it was cushing, you dont do this..(below) naturally in under 4 years with just weights and work ethic....

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/6914/cush1km3.jpg

And once again LOOK AT THE STATS!!!!! I could not be more clear about this. HE HAD HIS 1.5 BEST SEASONS OFF THE JUICE!!! HE DIDN'T FALL OFF A CLIFF UNTIL HIS KNEE GOT TAKEN OUT!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH???????

proshoota25
02-02-2011, 05:53 PM
quinn is one my favorite prospects in this draft and is the one guy i want on the patriots very very very badly. prolly wont happen tho

K Train
02-02-2011, 06:48 PM
i dont see 270 when i look at quinn, i think hes more like a 260 pound athlete who just happens to be silky smooth and explosive.

sounds like a 34 OLB to me

FUNBUNCHER
02-02-2011, 06:49 PM
Duffman, Cushing is a heckuva lot more 'natural' than Merriman ever was.

Cushing was never shorter than 6'1-6'2 throughout HS, and he's been over 195# since his freshman year in HS. Again, you're confusing Matthews and the 'odd circumstances' surrounding his 'growth spurt' with Cushing.
Cushing had 'weight' fluctuations at USC depending on what he was 'supplementing' at the time in college, thus the before photo from his freshman year with the Trojans, and the offseason shot before his senior year.

Cushing is a chemist, but IMO he's not 'experimenting' at the same level he was while in college.
http://images.athlonsports.com/d/14681-1/BrianCushing.jpg

Dude got smart and realized it's better for his rep not to look so 'obvious'.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Brian_Cushing.JPG/388px-Brian_Cushing.JPG

Bruce Campbell was a biggol rockhead who never really played sports until Freidgen recruited him.
Vernon Davis could have chosen any school in the country instead of UMD.
Maryland didn't 'invent' those guys, the potential was already there.

Merriman IMO was using PEDs well before he ever made it the NFL. How far back you wanna go is up to you to speculate.

This guy is what a God-blessed football athlete looks like......!

http://www2.wspa.com/mgmedia/image/294/0/169087/robert-quinn/

K Train
02-02-2011, 06:53 PM
cushing is a monster in that southern cal pic lol

freidgen just always looked for these freak athletes and tried to make them play football.....campbell just a monster human being, heyward bey a track star...ect

DeAngeloW
02-02-2011, 06:55 PM
And once again LOOK AT THE STATS!!!!! I could not be more clear about this. HE HAD HIS 1.5 BEST SEASONS OFF THE JUICE!!! HE DIDN'T FALL OFF A CLIFF UNTIL HIS KNEE GOT TAKEN OUT!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH???????

You make it sound as if you stop doing roids Monday the effect will be gone Tuesday. That is not the case. Once you have build up a huge muscle mass through training using roids its not that hard keeping it.
The problem is if you lose some of those muscle you will have a hard time getting them back without the roids. He lost a lot of muscle when he god injured cause he could not train. Therefor the effect from stopping using roids hit him extra hard after the injury. But sure the injury it self also played a big role but saying the roids had no effect on his play is ignorant.

descendency
02-02-2011, 07:52 PM
cushing is a monster in that southern cal pic lol

I always feel awkward talking about another guy's musculature but take a look at the "before" and "after" USC pics:

Before (he left):
http://grg51.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/briancushingshirtless.jpg

After (he left):
http://thesportsfag.com/files/2010/01/brian-cushing-shirtless2.jpg

87Canes
02-02-2011, 07:58 PM
Duffman57 is on roids!!! His posts justify my comment!!! LOL...

Comparing Cushing and Merriman as athletes or physical specimens isn't something to tote like a Gucci bag pimp...They both got caught up for being on roids.

For everyone questioning Quinn's weight, I got it from his player file on this website sooooooooo....I'm just quoting what I read.

To the Bills fan, Troupe and Williams are good but how about ya move Kyle Willams to DE and ya plug Dareus in he middle? Better yet, kick Dareus to the outside and now you've got a solid DL.

Duffman57
02-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Duffman, Cushing is a heckuva lot more 'natural' than Merriman ever was.

Cushing was never shorter than 6'1-6'2 throughout HS, and he's been over 195# since his freshman year in HS. Again, you're confusing Matthews and the 'odd circumstances' surrounding his 'growth spurt' with Cushing.
Cushing had 'weight' fluctuations at USC depending on what he was 'supplementing' at the time in college, thus the before photo from his freshman year with the Trojans, and the offseason shot before his senior year.

Cushing is a chemist, but IMO he's not 'experimenting' at the same level he was while in college.

Dude got smart and realized it's better for his rep not to look so 'obvious'.

Bruce Campbell was a biggol rockhead who never really played sports until Freidgen recruited him.
Vernon Davis could have chosen any school in the country instead of UMD.
Maryland didn't 'invent' those guys, the potential was already there.

Merriman IMO was using PEDs well before he ever made it the NFL. How far back you wanna go is up to you to speculate.

I dont know where your getting your numbers, i just looked it up, but coming out of HS Merriman was 6'4" 225 who ran a 4.6 flat. He got bigger and got a bit slower. I dont think thats too big of a jump. Guys every year go from 220 lb DE's to 250-260 DE's regularly. Your just looking at his weight gain as "steroid enhanced" because he was caught for steroids, as i am doing with Cushing.

I dont understand where your going with the Davis thing. He was listed at 6'4" 220 lbs and ran a 4.55 as a recruit, and was the #4 TE. Merriman was the previous listed triangle #'s, and was the #11 DE in the class. Merriman was quite talented coming out of HS as well, or was that because of steroids too? And Yeah, Campbell was just a freak coming out, but he still gained 40 lbs since he got here and kept his same speed. All these guys were pretty freakish coming in, and all made big leaps in College, but you look at merrimans gain all because of steroids only because he was caught for them.

Here's Merriman in HS vs in Pro's.

http://a.espncdn.com/i/mag/blog/MerryMan.jpg

vs. Him the year he got caught with Roids

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OlbsQNrv0aw/TNHG6u4YWSI/AAAAAAAAANc/nlt373AUDEI/s1600/shawne-merriman-pic.jpg

Decent change of definition but not something that was like the Cushing picture. I'm not saying that he wasn't taking them int otal, i'm just saying that i dont think that was at all the only reason he was such a freak, and i dont think it was something that he did all throughout his life and in college and it didn't cause his downfall.



And DeAngeloW, you may be right, but i wouldn't think it would take 2 years for it to wear off. I dont know if there's an exact number, and i'm not 100% informed about that, but i assume alot of it would wear off within like 6 months or so, but again, you may be right.