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Xiomera
03-21-2007, 08:07 PM
Who thinks ATL might move up to #2 for CJ? They now have two second round picks and the 8th pick instead of 10th . . .

I wonder if they'd be willing to deal us #8, their own 2nd rounder, and their 3rd?

Bootland27
03-21-2007, 08:15 PM
Who thinks ATL might move up to #2 for CJ? They now have two second round picks and the 8th pick instead of 10th . . .

I wonder if they'd be willing to deal us #8, their own 2nd rounder, and their 3rd?

gotta get more than that to drop 8 spots. More like 1st (this year's) and next years + their 2nd

casskid
03-21-2007, 08:25 PM
I would take this years first, second and third. It may not be a fair trade according to the value chart, but the value chart may be a tad overrated, much like the 40. At 8 we could still get Willis which is probably who we are targeting at this point, or maybe Landry. With the extra second and all those 5th rounds we could move back up into the first or maybe with the third and 5ths move into the second. Atlanta did just sign Joe Horn so they may just be looking for a replacement for Kearney.

asmitty45
03-21-2007, 08:31 PM
i would absolutely trade down to #8, for a second and a third. we could get PWillis there and use the later picks to trade up if we want.

dreadedluck
03-21-2007, 08:33 PM
The truth whatever Millen does will back fire. Cover 2 is completely ignorant and that again is Millens fault. When you hire a yes man and an x head coach that wants to fight his own players, and to them nude streakers at Wendy's and son-in-laws you pretty much cant fix anything through a draft. How bout instead of dreaming of drafting players to help the team we fix the organization. Millen is a hardheaded arrogant selfish man, so I it doesnt matter what pick we have it only matters what player Millen choses.

In theory Quinn is the man that best fits a team overhaul. The ATL trade would also be very intelligent if you went that route. But I have watched Millen's quick fixes for 6 some years and I've personally seen him put the blame on others that being every coach under his tenur.

We need to be honest with this situation and build from scratch, so again either Quinn or make the trade with ATL, but the worst team in the NFL over the past six years can't rely on 30 something career backups to get the job done. And if they really wanted to change the atmosphere in the locker room guys like Roy Williams and Big BABY need to shut up or get packing. NO ONE is above the game.

Bootland27
03-21-2007, 08:48 PM
I would take this years first, second and third. It may not be a fair trade according to the value chart, but the value chart may be a tad overrated, much like the 40.

Saying that it may be unfair according to the chart is an understatement with the scenario you presented.
2nd overall pick is 2600 pts.

The 8th overall pick is worth 1400 pts, the 2nd and 3rd round picks are worth 510 points and 215, respectively. In return we'd only be getting 2125 points. The difference is equivalent to that of a 2nd round pick.

There are guys in the media who have spoken with GM's and industry pro's. The system is not some fake numbers game, it is real and is employed. Those who choose not to employ it will get fleeced.

toonsterwu
03-21-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm not sure that Atlanta makes that jump. They are well-stocked to rebuild a lot of key areas, and they have plenty of needs for a team with high ambitions. They have 4 WR's in Jenkins, White, Horn, Finnerna.

georgiafan
03-21-2007, 08:54 PM
Atlanta has to many holes to trade up to #2. If they give up that many 1st day picks I would be upset. If they do trade up I think it will be with tampa where the would only have to give up a 2nd rounder

Pocket
03-21-2007, 08:54 PM
I was just thinking about this, and I am wondering if that's why they did the trade. Maybe we were talking with them, we said we didn't want shaub, so they went out and got some firepower to try and trade up?

WMD
03-21-2007, 09:24 PM
I think what the Falcons did was jump ahead of the Dolphins so they can take LaRon Landry without any trouble... They could very well move up for CJ, but I wouldn't see it as making or breaking their draft.

casskid
03-21-2007, 10:56 PM
Lets say that Willis is two on the Lions big board, behind only CJ. If you can trade down to 8 and still get Willis, and get a second and third in the process, how are we getting fleeced? We pay millions less, get the man we want, and acquire more picks that can be used to move up or give us a solid player. If Atlanta wants to throw in a next years first, great. But at the end of the day i would rather the Lion heads pull the trigger on the deal and not end up getting nothing because of what the trade value chart adds up too.

Bootland27
03-21-2007, 11:24 PM
Lets say that Willis is two on the Lions big board, behind only CJ. If you can trade down to 8 and still get Willis, and get a second and third in the process, how are we getting fleeced? We pay millions less, get the man we want, and acquire more picks that can be used to move up or give us a solid player. If Atlanta wants to throw in a next years first, great. But at the end of the day i would rather the Lion heads pull the trigger on the deal and not end up getting nothing because of what the trade value chart adds up too.

Because you're not getting equal value in return for trading down. Like I said earlier, if you go by the points system, the #2 pick is worth 2600 points.

If you trade down you better get the picks in return which accumulate to about 2600 points, give or take a few. Their first pick at 8th overall(1400 pts)+Their 2nd round pick(510 pts)+Their 3rd round pick(215 pts) only equal 2125 points. How is that not getting fleeced????

I don't think while drafting you should worry about money, unless you're in a tight budget (something the lions don't face currently).

You're passing up on a potential future hall of fame type receiver, as Peter King called him the most secure pick to come along in years. With talent like this probably being available at #2, you better make sure you don't get owned.

asmitty45
03-22-2007, 12:25 AM
The truth whatever Millen does will back fire. Cover 2 is completely ignorant and that again is Millens fault. When you hire a yes man and an x head coach that wants to fight his own players, and to them nude streakers at Wendy's and son-in-laws you pretty much cant fix anything through a draft. How bout instead of dreaming of drafting players to help the team we fix the organization. Millen is a hardheaded arrogant selfish man, so I it doesnt matter what pick we have it only matters what player Millen choses.

In theory Quinn is the man that best fits a team overhaul. The ATL trade would also be very intelligent if you went that route. But I have watched Millen's quick fixes for 6 some years and I've personally seen him put the blame on others that being every coach under his tenur.

We need to be honest with this situation and build from scratch, so again either Quinn or make the trade with ATL, but the worst team in the NFL over the past six years can't rely on 30 something career backups to get the job done. And if they really wanted to change the atmosphere in the locker room guys like Roy Williams and Big BABY need to shut up or get packing. NO ONE is above the game.

Ok chill out,
-the cover 2 is not "ignorant", it won Tampa and Indy Championships something we would like to eventually get.
-Marinelli's "son-in-law" was also the linebackers coach in tampa and was a desired target of several other teams for d-coordinator, however the Lions wrapped him up early enough that there was no major hubbub made about it. I have no explanation for the naked driving.
-Millen does not have a stellar track record by ANY means, but he is truly buying into this system w/ marinelli and you cant blame him for making trades (BLY trade, possible trade down) and FA signings (DeWayne White, Shaun McDonald) that fit the system and better his team. And outside of BMW, Millens drafts havent been all too shabby. (see me if you want explanation)
- An entire team overhaul is a bit rash, but major changes are necessary and are taking place. The ATL trade would allow us to acquire more Draft picks and better our team.
-Kitna is a journeyman but he put up some really good numbers considering he was behind a patchwork line with no KJ for most of the season. The INT's dont help but that can be solved with better O-Line play. Quinn would make sense but all indications are that DStanton is becoming the choice in round 2.
-Roy Williams and Shaun Rogers simply want to win. They are both very passionate players from a very prestigious collegiate program (Texas) and they are not used to losing. Id rather have them talking about how badly they want to win then have them not talk at all.

Read Up before you go making huge posts like this.

asmitty45
03-22-2007, 12:26 AM
gotta get more than that to drop 8 spots. More like 1st (this year's) and next years + their 2nd

Only dropping 6 spots now, id rather your deal for obvious reasons but id take a 1,2,3 for a move down.

ChefMike
03-22-2007, 12:50 AM
Ok chill out,
-the cover 2 is not "ignorant", it won Tampa and Indy Championships something we would like to eventually get.
-Marinelli's "son-in-law" was also the linebackers coach in tampa and was a desired target of several other teams for d-coordinator, however the Lions wrapped him up early enough that there was no major hubbub made about it. I have no explanation for the naked driving.
-Millen does not have a stellar track record by ANY means, but he is truly buying into this system w/ marinelli and you cant blame him for making trades (BLY trade, possible trade down) and FA signings (DeWayne White, Shaun McDonald) that fit the system and better his team. And outside of BMW, Millens drafts havent been all too shabby. (see me if you want explanation)
- An entire team overhaul is a bit rash, but major changes are necessary and are taking place. The ATL trade would allow us to acquire more Draft picks and better our team.
-Kitna is a journeyman but he put up some really good numbers considering he was behind a patchwork line with no KJ for most of the season. The INT's dont help but that can be solved with better O-Line play. Quinn would make sense but all indications are that DStanton is becoming the choice in round 2.
-Roy Williams and Shaun Rogers simply want to win. They are both very passionate players from a very prestigious collegiate program (Texas) and they are not used to losing. Id rather have them talking about how badly they want to win then have them not talk at all.

Read Up before you go making huge posts like this.


Very well said... I don't think what is proposed as a possibility is a bad idea...think about this though... your thinking of taking Quinn at #2.. if you don't take him and say you moved down to #8 you potentially could still take him if Cleveland doesnt... yes the Browns will probably take him but I still think Adrian Peterson is going there and they will go after Drew Stanton or Troy Smith in later rounds...so you know Tampa isnt going after him, Arizona, Washinton, Minnesota same situation not going after Quinn so you possibly drop down and still get that franchise QB to play behind Kitna for a year and learn Martz's system. Plus you pick up some extra picks in later rounds to address your OL and secondary which this year you could make a lot of headway on depth and really building through the draft something you have not done well under Millen so I can see why there is some much hate for him. He wants to win though its not like he is trying to sabotage the Organization !!

Addict
03-22-2007, 07:28 AM
Very well said... I don't think what is proposed as a possibility is a bad idea...think about this though... your thinking of taking Quinn at #2.. if you don't take him and say you moved down to #8 you potentially could still take him if Cleveland doesnt... yes the Browns will probably take him but I still think Adrian Peterson is going there and they will go after Drew Stanton or Troy Smith in later rounds...so you know Tampa isnt going after him, Arizona, Washinton, Minnesota same situation not going after Quinn so you possibly drop down and still get that franchise QB to play behind Kitna for a year and learn Martz's system. Plus you pick up some extra picks in later rounds to address your OL and secondary which this year you could make a lot of headway on depth and really building through the draft something you have not done well under Millen so I can see why there is some much hate for him. He wants to win though its not like he is trying to sabotage the Organization !!

no. If we pick a QB it's either Quinn or Stanton.

And to be honest with you, if ATL offers their first and second i'd consider it seriously, and if they add a 4th it becomes a no-brainer. We have no real use for the #2, and eight overall would get us the player that we both want and need (P Willis) as well as get a shot at drafting Stanton and a good CB in round two. It's a win win as long as we don't take the trade value chart too seriously.

detroit4life
03-22-2007, 09:03 AM
i was thinkin the same thing with ATL they have plenty of ammo but they also have a lot of wrs who asre pretty good. But none of them are a sure thign #1 wr IMO so they might be interested but i think they are gonna adress other areas unfortunatly

jbombul
03-22-2007, 09:46 AM
no. If we pick a QB it's either Quinn or Stanton.

And to be honest with you, if ATL offers their first and second i'd consider it seriously, and if they add a 4th it becomes a no-brainer. We have no real use for the #2, and eight overall would get us the player that we both want and need (P Willis) as well as get a shot at drafting Stanton and a good CB in round two. It's a win win as long as we don't take the trade value chart too seriously.

he was talking about the browns

TacticaLion
03-22-2007, 11:01 AM
And to be honest with you, if ATL offers their first and second i'd consider it seriously, and if they add a 4th it becomes a no-brainer. We have no real use for the #2, and eight overall would get us the player that we both want and need (P Willis) as well as get a shot at drafting Stanton and a good CB in round two. It's a win win as long as we don't take the trade value chart too seriously.Exactly. If they offer a 1st and 2nd, it's a trade you have to take. Moving down to draft your main target and getting another 2nd round pick in the deal... perfect. Add any other picks and the deal just gets better.

asmitty... thanks for responding to that post. I was about to say something, but you covered it.

Vickissick07
03-22-2007, 11:11 AM
If we could move up to #2 just by giving up #8 and our 2nd, I would do it in a heartbeat. It would be hard to choose between CJ and Joe Thomas though. I think that Vick behind an elite OL would be a scary thing to witness. That would still leave us with a pick in every round and 2 in the 3rd and 4th.

TacticaLion
03-22-2007, 11:16 AM
If we could move up to #2 just by giving up #8 and our 2nd, I would do it in a heartbeat. It would be hard to choose between CJ and Joe Thomas though. I think that Vick behind an elite OL would be a scary thing to witness. That would still leave us with a pick in every round and 2 in the 3rd and 4th.Honestly, if I were a Falcons fan and the Falcons spent some picks to move up... and drafted OLine (with CJesus on the board)... I'd be furious.

If you want OLine, draft OLine in the 2nd round. But, CJ will be incredible... the perfect fit for Vick.

That offense would be scary.

Vickissick07
03-22-2007, 11:22 AM
Honestly, if I were a Falcons fan and the Falcons spent some picks to move up... and drafted OLine (with CJesus on the board)... I'd be furious.

If you want OLine, draft OLine in the 2nd round. But, CJ will be incredible... the perfect fit for Vick.

That offense would be scary.

I said it would be hard to choose, but I would still choose CJ haha.

TacticaLion
03-22-2007, 11:32 AM
I said it would be hard to choose, but I would still choose CJ haha.
*phew*

You had me scurred.

We almost had to have "the talk".

Fans shouldn't let Falcon's fans select ANY player at #2 over CJesus.

Bootland27
03-22-2007, 01:51 PM
Only dropping 6 spots now

I know, I mentioned that in post # 6.

Bootland27
03-22-2007, 02:02 PM
I'd say no deal if I was getting only a 2nd and 3rd from atlanta.

IMO, it should be both 2nd round picks and a 4th as well. (based on the value chart)

Summary of Picks:
1st (#8), 3 2nd rounders, 3 rounder, 2 4th rounders, 4 5th rounders, 6th, 7th.

BTW, if they decided package say... two of the 2nd round picks they can move up into the middle of the first round.

eacantdraft
03-22-2007, 02:07 PM
Not going to happen. Atlanta has bigger needs than picking up a homie, no matter how talented he is.

WMD
03-22-2007, 02:23 PM
I'd do it for their Round 1, Houston's Round 2, and their 2008 Round 1. I don't think that would be a bad deal for either team.. I think it'd be worth it for ATL to get CJ..

DoWnThEfiElD
03-22-2007, 03:20 PM
I'd say no deal if I was getting only a 2nd and 3rd from atlanta.

IMO, it should be both 2nd round picks and a 4th as well. (based on the value chart)

Summary of Picks:
1st (#8), 3 2nd rounders, 3 rounder, 2 4th rounders, 4 5th rounders, 6th, 7th.

BTW, if they decided package say... two of the 2nd round picks they can move up into the middle of the first round.

That would be called best case senario i think.

Bootland27
03-23-2007, 02:02 AM
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070323/SPORTS08/703230322/1126/rss14

There are six stars in the draft -- quarterbacks JaMarcus Russell of LSU and Brady Quinn of Notre Dame, Oklahoma running back Adrian Peterson, Georgia Tech wide receiver Calvin Johnson, Clemson defensive end Gaines Adams and Wisconsin offensive tackle Joe Thomas.

Somewhat outside that group lurks a player the Lions might like as well as anybody, especially for the price -- Mississippi middle linebacker Patrick Willis.

The Falcons have improved their position with the trade that sent backup quarterback Matt Schaub to the Texans. Atlanta and Houston swapped positions -- the Falcons to No. 8, the Texans to No. 10.

Atlanta also got two second-round picks, one this year and one next year. Atlanta will draft seventh in the second round (Houston's pick) and 12th.

That's an attractive package of picks -- eighth, 39th and 44th.

Most teams use a points system to rate the value of picks. The first pick, held by Oakland, is worth 3,000 points. The second pick is worth 2,600. No. 8 is worth 1,400.

For the Lions to get full value for swapping first-round positions with the Falcons, they'd have to make up 1,200 points. The Falcons' second-round picks are worth 510 and 460 points for a total of 970. That still doesn't make it equal on the points chart. The next five weeks should be fun. Let the points pile up.

Pocket
03-23-2007, 06:40 AM
GOD DAMN. It is not all about draft points. You don't NEED equal value. Yes, you want it, but is Atlanta going to give it to you? NO.

Let me put it this way.... From trading down, you get the player that will fill the biggest need on defense, and gain a second round pick is fine, regardless of "trade value"

Picks have no "value" in my opinion, it's the players that you want to take that have value, and if you are trading down to draft one of your "value" players, and gain a pick, why not do it?

Iamcanadian
03-23-2007, 07:37 AM
I cannot see Atlanta moving up for CJ. Vick is never going to be a good enough passer to take advantage of Johnson's skills. Atlanta is much more in need of a DE to replace Kerney on their DL. I don't see them moving up at all.

Vickissick07
03-23-2007, 09:12 AM
I cannot see Atlanta moving up for CJ. Vick is never going to be a good enough passer to take advantage of Johnson's skills. Atlanta is much more in need of a DE to replace Kerney on their DL. I don't see them moving up at all.

Was Culpepper never good enough to take advantage of Moss's skills? CJ would stop teams from putting 8 in the box every play. Using 4 and 5 wide sets is what the ATL needs. We have players that excel in the open field. Norwood, Dunn, Vick, possibly CJ. That is just a scary offense to imagine. I don't know if I would want to trade all the way up to 2 though.

DeMonikk1
03-23-2007, 10:15 AM
Was Culpepper never good enough to take advantage of Moss's skills? CJ would stop teams from putting 8 in the box every play. Using 4 and 5 wide sets is what the ATL needs. We have players that excel in the open field. Norwood, Dunn, Vick, possibly CJ. That is just a scary offense to imagine. I don't know if I would want to trade all the way up to 2 though.

And yet Mike Vick would find some way to screw it up...most overrated player ever...

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 10:29 AM
GOD DAMN. It is not all about draft points. You don't NEED equal value. Yes, you want it, but is Atlanta going to give it to you? NO.

Let me put it this way.... From trading down, you get the player that will fill the biggest need on defense, and gain a second round pick is fine, regardless of "trade value"

Picks have no "value" in my opinion, it's the players that you want to take that have value, and if you are trading down to draft one of your "value" players, and gain a pick, why not do it?

I couldn't agree more. I'd much rather trade down for ANYTHING than stay put and draft a player that we don't truly need.

A trade has no value if it wont happen.
I cannot see Atlanta moving up for CJ. Vick is never going to be a good enough passer to take advantage of Johnson's skills. Atlanta is much more in need of a DE to replace Kerney on their DL. I don't see them moving up at all.I disagree on this one. I may be wrong on this one, but the Falcon's WRs dropped a LOT of passes last year (from what I remember). A player like CJesus... with speed, size, hands, effort and personality, would be the perfect outlet for Vick. A strength of Vick? His arm power. A weakness of Vick? His accuracy. Give him a big target that can come down with the ball.

Not to mention having CJesus will force the defense to adjust to him. Leave him man and stack the box... and get burned. Double him and watch Vick run around you.

I like the move... might just be me.

iloxygenil
03-23-2007, 10:37 AM
As an Atlanta Fan, I LOVE CJ...but I wouldn't want to pay the price to move to #2 to get him, when I could pay less to get to #3 and I am not worried about Detroit or Cleveland taking him...Ideally he goes #1 and I don't have to worry about him landing in Tampa.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 10:41 AM
As an Atlanta Fan, I LOVE CJ...but I wouldn't want to pay the price to move to #2 to get him, when I could pay less to get to #3 and I am not worried about Detroit or Cleveland taking him...Ideally he goes #1 and I don't have to worry about him landing in Tampa.Actually, if Oakland doesn't take him, the Lions will trade his rights at #2. There's a great chance that the Lions will trade down, and, if CJesus is still on the board, teams will be trading up to select him.

If you traded up with us, and only traded a 1st and 2nd and 4th round pick, I don't see how it hurts you THAT much. You'd have CJesus and would STILL have a 2nd round pick (and 2 2nd round picks next year).

Not too steep of a price... in my opinion.

P-L
03-23-2007, 11:47 AM
I am so glad that half of you aren't the GM of the Lions. Yes, the value chart DOES matter. There is a reason that every team in the league uses it and takes it seriously. The ONLY time you can consider settling for less than fair value is if you absolutely have to deal down, it's April 28th and you have three minutes left on the clock. It is absolutely stupid to agree to be ripped off in a trade, just because you want to move down. If our time is about to expire on draft day and the best deal that anyone offers us is #8, #42, and #106 then maybe, just maybe you consider that offer. But until then, suggesting that it's ok for the Lions to get raped in a trade just so we can draft our lord and savior Patrick Willis is absurd.

Here is what it would realistically take for Atlanta to trade up to #2:

#8 overall
#40 overall
2008 1st Round pick

or

#8 overall
#40 overall
#42 overall
#74 overall

DeMonikk1
03-23-2007, 11:50 AM
I am so glad that half of you aren't the GM of the Lions. Yes, the value chart DOES matter. There is a reason that every team in the league uses it and takes it seriously. The ONLY time you can consider settling for less than fair value is if you absolutely have to deal down, it's April 28th and you have three minutes left on the clock. It is absolutely stupid to agree to be ripped off in a trade, just because you want to move down. If our time is about to expire on draft day and the best deal that anyone offers us is #8, #42, and #106 then maybe, just maybe you consider that offer. But until then, suggesting that it's ok for the Lions to get raped in a trade just so we can draft our lord and savior Patrick Willis is absurd.

Here is what it would realistically take for Atlanta to trade up to #2:

#8 overall
#40 overall
2008 1st Round pick

or

#8 overall-1400 pts
#40 overall-500 pts
#42 overall-480 pts
#74 overall 220 pts= # 2 pick of 2600 pts


Exactly.....

JPLUFF
03-23-2007, 11:53 AM
I cannot see Atlanta moving up for CJ. Vick is never going to be a good enough passer to take advantage of Johnson's skills. Atlanta is much more in need of a DE to replace Kerney on their DL. I don't see them moving up at all.

CJ made Reggie Ball look halfway decent.

Scotty D
03-23-2007, 01:13 PM
Thank you P-L. What would we do without you.

Addict
03-23-2007, 03:40 PM
*phew*

You had me scurred.

We almost had to have "the talk".

Fans shouldn't let Falcon's fans select ANY player at #2 over CJesus.

If they get to number two, and fail to draft CJ (if on board) I think the Falcons' GM will have to be taken into protective custody.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 03:41 PM
I am so glad that half of you aren't the GM of the Lions. Yes, the value chart DOES matter. There is a reason that every team in the league uses it and takes it seriously. The ONLY time you can consider settling for less than fair value is if you absolutely have to deal down, it's April 28th and you have three minutes left on the clock. It is absolutely stupid to agree to be ripped off in a trade, just because you want to move down. If our time is about to expire on draft day and the best deal that anyone offers us is #8, #42, and #106 then maybe, just maybe you consider that offer. But until then, suggesting that it's ok for the Lions to get raped in a trade just so we can draft our lord and savior Patrick Willis is absurd.

Here is what it would realistically take for Atlanta to trade up to #2:

#8 overall
#40 overall
2008 1st Round pick

or

#8 overall
#40 overall
#42 overall
#74 overallHere's the problem with that mentality:

We want a specific player... and that player will be drafted in the 10-20 range. We have the #2 pick. We shop the pick and DEMAND perfect value (which many teams wont accept). What next? Oakland takes CJesus, we've got the #2 pick, and want to trade down. A few teams in the 9-12 range offer us their 1st, 2nd and 4th round picks... but we refuse the trade because it isn't "perfect value". So, what happens? Our pick has lost value and we're going to either reach or settle for the best player available (and disregard our needs).

Or, we can open our eyes and realize that SOMETHING is better than NOTHING.

What draft is better?

Draft 1:
PWillis
2a.
2b.
3.
4.

or...

Draft 2:
PWillis
2.
3.

Lets be serious.

Once again, a trade has no value if it wont happen. I'd love to get perfect value for every trade, but i'd much rather take the trade than reach for a player.

Addict
03-23-2007, 03:48 PM
Here's the problem with that mentality:

We want a specific player... and that player will be drafted in the 10-20 range. We have the #2 pick. We shop the pick and DEMAND perfect value (which many teams wont accept). What next? Oakland takes CJesus, we've got the #2 pick, and want to trade down. A few teams in the 9-12 range offer us their 1st, 2nd and 4th round picks... but we refuse the trade because it isn't "perfect value". So, what happens? Our pick has lost value and we're going to either reach or settle for the best player available (and disregard our needs).

Or, we can open our eyes and realize that SOMETHING is better than NOTHING.

What draft is better?

Draft 1:
PWillis
2a.
2b.
3.
4.

or...

Draft 2:
PWillis
2.
3.

Lets be serious.

Once again, a trade has no value if it wont happen. I'd love to get perfect value for every trade, but i'd much rather take the trade than reach for a player.

Well they'll most likely get a QB instead, but as for the rest of your post,
I agree, but P-L makes a good point, at THIS POINT it makes little sense to completely ignore the trade value chart (tvc), but I do think that we can and should accept a deal that gives us good to great value for the pick, even if it is, according to the tvc, crooked.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 03:51 PM
Here's an example at what I'm trying to get at:

Last year, the Browns traded down ONE spot with the Ravens... knowing the Ravens wanted Ngata and that they wanted Wimbley. What did the Browns receive in return? Just a 6th round pick. If you look at "trade value", the Browns shouldnt've taken the trade, but should've demanded the Ravens' 5th and 7th round picks instead. Would the Ravens have made the deal? Maybe... and maybe not (I bet it was suggested).

What's the point? They traded down one spot... and only received one pick in return. Why was it a good move? It was a free pick.

You never know what you'll draft, but having more picks is better than having less picks.
Well they'll most likely get a QB instead, but as for the rest of your post,
I agree, but P-L makes a good point, at THIS POINT it makes little sense to completely ignore the trade value chart (tvc), but I do think that we can and should accept a deal that gives us good to great value for the pick, even if it is, according to the tvc, crooked.Don't get me wrong... I'd try to get as much as possible from ANY trade. But, if no one will accept perfect value, I'd rather lower my standards and receive an extra pick than stay put and reach on a player.

Addict
03-23-2007, 03:54 PM
Here's an example at what I'm trying to get at:

Last year, the Browns traded down ONE spot with the Ravens... knowing the Ravens wanted Ngata and that they wanted Wimbley. What did the Browns receive in return? Just a 6th round pick. If you look at "trade value", the Browns shouldnt've taken the trade, but should've demanded the Ravens' 5th and 7th round picks instead. Would the Ravens have made the deal? Maybe... and maybe not (I bet it was suggested).

What's the point? They traded down one spot... and only received one pick in return. Why was it a good move? It was a free pick.

You never know what you'll draft, but having more picks is better than having less picks.

Yes, you're absolutely right here, but you're talking about draft-day, three minutes to go decisions, as P-L said, THEN it's an option. That sixth-rounder was free, that's for sure, but such a deal makes little to no sense any time but draft day itself.

And your example is ONE pick down, we're talking SIX.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 04:13 PM
Yes, you're absolutely right here, but you're talking about draft-day, three minutes to go decisions, as P-L said, THEN it's an option. That sixth-rounder was free, that's for sure, but such a deal makes little to no sense any time but draft day itself.

And your example is ONE pick down, we're talking SIX.Yes it is 6 picks vice one, but we're also receiving an extra 2nd round pick (and drafting the player we want)! An extra 2nd round pick... within the top 10 picks in the draft... that's great value! That's Blalock and Meriweather... or Stanton and McCauley... or Abiamiri and (insert player). Man... talk about happyness (get it?).

I guess this whole "draft value" conversation was a misunderstanding. I'd love to get every bit of value for every trade down, but I'd also want to receive an extra pick vice not getting extra picks.

Addict
03-23-2007, 04:16 PM
Yes it is 6 picks vice one, but we're also receiving an extra 2nd round pick (and drafting the player we want)! An extra 2nd round pick... within the top 10 picks in the draft... that's great value! That's Blalock and Meriweather... or Stanton and McCauley... or Abiamiri and (insert player). Man... talk about happyness (get it?).

I guess this whole "draft value" conversation was a misunderstanding. I'd love to get every bit of value for every trade down, but I'd also want to receive an extra pick vice not getting extra picks.

I don't. I was born without a sense of humor. I blame my mother. She hasn't got one either.

What I ment to say was that I would like to see something more than a sixth rounder come our way if we trade down 6 places in the top 10. With an extra second, maybe (just for the fun of having as many as we can muster) a fifth, I'd be very pleased.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 04:19 PM
I don't. I was born without a sense of humor. I blame my mother. She hasn't got one either.

What I ment to say was that I would like to see something more than a sixth rounder come our way if we trade down 6 places in the top 10. With an extra second, maybe (just for the fun of having as many as we can muster) a fifth, I'd be very pleased.

Would you trade a 2nd round pick for 31 5th round picks? I think I would. That's a LOTTA picks (and a NFL record).

I would be pissed if we only received a 6th rounder... but, if NO ONE would trade up with us, I would accept a 3rd rounder. As it is nowhere near great value, it's still better to receive an extra day 1 pick and draft Willis.

Many will disagree with me there, but it's the way I feel.

(That new Will Smith movie is called "The Pursuit of Happyness"... they misspelled it on purpose... or something.)

Addict
03-23-2007, 04:26 PM
Would you trade a 2nd round pick for 31 5th round picks? I think I would. That's a LOTTA picks (and a NFL record).

I would be pissed if we only received a 6th rounder... but, if NO ONE would trade up with us, I would accept a 3rd rounder. As it is nowhere near great value, it's still better to receive an extra day 1 pick and draft Willis.

Many will disagree with me there, but it's the way I feel.

(That new Will Smith movie is called "The Pursuit of Happyness"... they misspelled it on purpose... or something.)

You're still in denial. The movie industry is where people who cannot write go. Look at Sylvester Stallone, he can't write, where did he go?

Third round? You sure? I'd say no, and get CJ, and then look to draft Harris, Siler or DeOssie (why does nobody ever mention that kid?) in later rounds. Of course afterwards when we play the falcons we'd throw at CJ all day long, making them sorry for low-balling us.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 04:30 PM
You're still in denial. The movie industry is where people who cannot write go. Look at Sylvester Stallone, he can't write, where did he go?

Third round? You sure? I'd say no, and get CJ, and then look to draft Harris, Siler or DeOssie (why does nobody ever mention that kid?) in later rounds. Of course afterwards when we play the falcons we'd throw at CJ all day long, making them sorry for low-balling us.

That would be fun (the Falcons thing). Interesting analysis on the movie industry... I'll ask 'google' how he feels about it.

I really would take a 3rd rounder, though... and many think it's crazy. I just think PWillis is THAT good, and would rather have more day 1 picks and PWillis than taking another player.

*sigh*... it does sound stupid... I know. I just would, though.

I saw an interview with CJesus though... seems like a great player. Down to earth and seems to have great character. I'm leaning towards drafting him over accepting a horrible trade... but... grr. It's close.

Addict
03-23-2007, 04:34 PM
That would be fun (the Falcons thing). Interesting analysis on the movie industry... I'll ask 'google' how he feels about it.

I really would take a 3rd rounder, though... and many think it's crazy. I just think PWillis is THAT good, and would rather have more day 1 picks and PWillis than taking another player.

*sigh*... it does sound stupid... I know. I just would, though.

I saw an interview with CJesus though... seems like a great player. Down to earth and seems to have great character. I'm leaning towards drafting him over accepting a horrible trade... but... grr. It's close.

Well... I think value-wise CJ beats out Willis + Third-rounder. Even though Willis would be great, we'd be a laughing stock for trading down six places for a third rounder.

By the way... what are we talking about? There is no way the falcons are stupid enough to think that we'd be stupid enough to take such a stupid offer.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 05:21 PM
Well... I think value-wise CJ beats out Willis + Third-rounder. Even though Willis would be great, we'd be a laughing stock for trading down six places for a third rounder.

By the way... what are we talking about? There is no way the falcons are stupid enough to think that we'd be stupid enough to take such a stupid offer.Haha... that's a lotta stupids.

I think CJ beats Willis+3rd rounder as well... but I think Willis (and what he might be) fills a MUCH bigger need than CJ would (not to mention a 3rd round pick).

I dunno. They'd laugh now, but would stop when Willis starts to tackle their families... or something.

Bootland27
03-23-2007, 06:37 PM
Haha... that's a lotta stupids.

I think CJ beats Willis+3rd rounder as well... but I think Willis (and what he might be) fills a MUCH bigger need than CJ would (not to mention a 3rd round pick).

I dunno. They'd laugh now, but would stop when Willis starts to tackle their families... or something.

CJ is the "Reggie Bush" of the draft this year. Choosing Willis + 3rd is kinda like taking Mario Williams over Reggie Bush.

New Orleans had a defense worse than us before last year, and they desperately needed someone like AJ Hawk. But they took Bush, despite already having McCallister.

I sound like I'm making a case for the lions to take CJ, but I'm not. They just need to get fair value (or give a slight discount) if they want to trade down.

Millen is good at making trades, and if he doesn't get fair value he'll take CJ. He tried trading down as well in 2005 and couldn't so he ended up taking MW.

WMD
03-25-2007, 08:26 PM
We should trade with ATL, for their Round 1/a Round 2/2008 Round 1.. go with Patrick Willis, Brandon Meriweather, and Marcus McCauley with the first three picks.. and use our two Round 1's in '08 to make sure we get Calais Campbell.. if he declares. Yes I am already thinking about 2008.

Xiomera
03-25-2007, 08:47 PM
We should trade with ATL, for their Round 1/a Round 2/2008 Round 1.. go with Patrick Willis, Brandon Meriweather, and Marcus McCauley with the first three picks.. and use our two Round 1's in '08 to make sure we get Calais Campbell.. if he declares. Yes I am already thinking about 2008.

That would be great, but I think McCauley goes in round 1. Use the other 2nd rounder on a DE or a QB and take Daymeion Hughes in the third.

jbombul
03-25-2007, 09:10 PM
victor abirimiri in the second with merriweather and willis and get hughes in the third yes that would be perfect

TacticaLion
03-26-2007, 09:24 AM
victor abirimiri in the second with merriweather and willis and get hughes in the third yes that would be perfect
Abiamiri in the second with Meriweather and Willis?

I may not get it, but I see 4 players in there that I want: Willis, Meriweather, Abiamiri and Hughes... that would be outstanding.

Notredameleo
03-26-2007, 02:41 PM
I am happy with CJesus as you guys call him, or a trade down, as long as we get decent value.

Aard
03-26-2007, 06:01 PM
I am happy with CJesus as you guys call him, or a trade down, as long as we get decent value.

Careful! I said this same thing on March 13 and nearly got my head chewed off. (Hi, Tac! ;) )

Granted, a few things have changed since that date to make C-Hey-Zeus a real (as well as realistic) possibility. But I also said at the time that I believe Oakland steps up and snags Calvin, denying us the option. I still think that's a strong possibility.

Shiver
03-26-2007, 06:04 PM
The only way Atlanta trades up for Calvin Johnson, is if Arthur Blank deems it necessary to appease fans, rather than win games.

TacticaLion
03-26-2007, 06:28 PM
Careful! I said this same thing on March 13 and nearly got my head chewed off. (Hi, Tac! ;) )

Granted, a few things have changed since that date to make C-Hey-Zeus a real (as well as realistic) possibility. But I also said at the time that I believe Oakland steps up and snags Calvin, denying us the option. I still think that's a strong possibility.

Haha. *waves*...

It was a different time back then for me. I still feel that we need to fill a huge weakness on the team with our 1st round pick... but I can admit that CJ will be great. I would much rather trade down and draft Willis, Landry or Adams... but, if we stayed at #2 and had our choice of Quinn, CJ, Thomas or Peterson... I'd want CJ.

WMD
03-26-2007, 08:50 PM
Abiamiri in the second with Meriweather and Willis?

I may not get it, but I see 4 players in there that I want: Willis, Meriweather, Abiamiri and Hughes... that would be outstanding.

The first three are guys that I want, too. I don't want Daymeion Hughes though. Not athletic enough or fast enough as far as i'm concerned to warrant a Day One pick, and I don't think he'll do much in the NFL.

jbombul
03-27-2007, 05:11 AM
Abiamiri in the second with Meriweather and Willis?

I may not get it, but I see 4 players in there that I want: Willis, Meriweather, Abiamiri and Hughes... that would be outstanding.

i was just lazy i meant we get:

1.willis
2a merriweather
2b. abiamiri
3.Hughes

TacticaLion
03-27-2007, 05:42 AM
i was just lazy i meant we get:

1.willis
2a merriweather
2b. abiamiri
3.Hughes

AHHH! I get it now.

I'd accept that draft... very solid. Willis/Meriweather/Abiamiri/Hughes... 4 talented players that would probably start next year.

scar988
03-27-2007, 05:48 AM
Who thinks ATL might move up to #2 for CJ? They now have two second round picks and the 8th pick instead of 10th . . .

I wonder if they'd be willing to deal us #8, their own 2nd rounder, and their 3rd?

I doubt we do that. it would be more like ATL trades #8, #39 and the 2nd rounder from HOU next year for #2 and CJ... basically being #10 and Schaub for CJ like I said Atlanta would do.

scar988
03-27-2007, 05:49 AM
The only way Atlanta trades up for Calvin Johnson, is if Arthur Blank deems it necessary to appease fans, rather than win games.
or if we wind up not having to give up more than #8, #39 and nezt year's 2nd from HOU.

DeMonikk1
03-27-2007, 07:04 AM
The only way Atlanta trades up for Calvin Johnson, is if Arthur Blank deems it necessary to appease fans, rather than win games.

That's what it seesm like he's doing already by keeping with Mike Vick..but he does have over $100 million invested in him...but he's still not a QB.

Addict
03-27-2007, 07:05 AM
Abiamiri in the second with Meriweather and Willis?

I may not get it, but I see 4 players in there that I want: Willis, Meriweather, Abiamiri and Hughes... that would be outstanding.

whoa tactica! no Stanton?

TacticaLion
03-27-2007, 09:48 AM
whoa tactica! no Stanton?

Hey... I'm flexible! Easy, you... you... Addict.

I like the thought of Stanton/Edwards in round 3... but, if we draft Willis, would prefer Meriweather/Spencer/Abiamiri in round 2.

If one of those QBs falls, we should take him.