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REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 09:39 AM
I dont think you have to be a 4.3 guy,or even 4.4 guy to be a Elite wide receiver any more. With all the no touch after 5 yard rules thing. After 5 yards 95% of wr's are full speed and Db back pedaling wr wins.
and as long as you have very good hands, and run perfect routes you will be fine. So who are the best route runners in this draft? i like Austin Pettis alot 6'3 205 great hands 4.59/40 some team is going to get a steal with this guy.

Lenard Hankerson runs pretty nice routes too. I also like Darvin Adams too nice clean route runner as well.

FUNBUNCHER
02-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Route running and hands are most important for a WR prospect, but flat out straight line speed determines more what a WR does after the catch.

Jerry Rice could take a 10 yard slant and turn it into a 60 yard score because despite popular belief, he was kinda FAST.

Fast WRs have a greater chance to get open on most routes because DBs typically give them a bigger cushion at the LOS.

You don't have to run a 4.3 to be a star NFL WR, but damn it sure does help to be one of the fastest players on the field when the QB throws you the football.

In the redzone, speed is the least important attribute for a WR; route running is what makes or breaks a WR 20 yards from the endzone.

Halsey
02-08-2011, 10:34 AM
Is there a single aspect of physical talent that doesn't get called "overrated" anymore? I'd love to field a team of physically talented players against a team put together by some people here. It would be my team of talented players vs a team of 5'5, 120lb players who take 10 seconds to run a 40 and can't bench 225 even once.

JoeJoeBrown
02-08-2011, 10:34 AM
I dont think you have to be a 4.3 guy,or even 4.4 guy to be a Elite wide receiver any more. With all the no touch after 5 yard rules thing. After 5 yards 95% of wr's are full speed and Db back pedaling wr wins.
and as long as you have very good hands, and run perfect routes you will be fine. So who are the best route runners in this draft? i like Austin Pettis alot 6'3 205 great hands 4.59/40 some team is going to get a steal with this guy.

Lenard Hankerson runs pretty nice routes too. I also like Darvin Adams too nice clean route runner as well.

Agree that speed is highly overrated. You need to be fast, but elite speed isn't necessary but is just a nice to have.

Great hands, route running, ability to shake off contact at the LOS, ability to make reads and adjust routes based on QB blitz calls or what the defense is showing, ability to catch the ball in traffic across the middle, and blocking ability are all important. All but the last two are more important than being a 4.3 vs a 4.5. Look at the best WRs in the NFL. The vast majority are in the 4.45-4.6 range.

Clarkw267
02-08-2011, 10:36 AM
You never had to be a 4.4 guy to be an elite WR in the league.

Theres a reason guys like Rice, Chris Carter, Art Monk, Isaac Bruce, Michael Irvin... etc are among the best ever

JoeJoeBrown
02-08-2011, 10:44 AM
Is there a single aspect of physical talent that doesn't get called "overrated" anymore? I'd love to field a team of physically talented players against a team put together by some people here. It would be my team of talented players vs a team of 5'5, 120lb players who take 10 seconds to run a 40 and can't bench 225 even once.

I think your reaction to this thread is overrated.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 11:01 AM
Route running and hands are most important for a WR prospect, but flat out straight line speed determines more what a WR does after the catch.

Jerry Rice could take a 10 yard slant and turn it into a 60 yard score because despite popular belief, he was kinda FAST.

Fast WRs have a greater chance to get open on most routes because DBs typically give them a bigger cushion at the LOS.

You don't have to run a 4.3 to be a star NFL WR, but damn it sure does help to be one of the fastest players on the field when the QB throws you the football.

In the redzone, speed is the least important attribute for a WR; route running is what makes or breaks a WR 20 yards from the endzone.


Ok what if you get a WR that runs a 4.2 , but cant run route or catch the football. give me Tall 6'4 210 pound guys that have golden hands , and run routes like Marvin Harrison any day of the week.

Babylon
02-08-2011, 11:01 AM
You never had to be a 4.4 guy to be an elite WR in the league.

Theres a reason guys like Rice, Chris Carter, Art Monk, Isaac Bruce, Michael Irvin... etc are among the best ever

Jordy Nelson? This year's guy for me would be Austin Pettis of Boise St. Size, great hands and enough speed on gameday.

SimonRath
02-08-2011, 11:02 AM
Ok what if you get a WR that runs a 4.2 , but cant run route or catch the football. give me Tall 6'4 210 pound guys that have golden hands , and run routes like Marvin Harrison any day of the week.

no one would chose the 4.2 guy with no hands and cant run routes..

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 11:03 AM
Agree that speed is highly overrated. You need to be fast, but elite speed isn't necessary but is just a nice to have.

Great hands, route running, ability to shake off contact at the LOS, ability to make reads and adjust routes based on QB blitz calls or what the defense is showing, ability to catch the ball in traffic across the middle, and blocking ability are all important. All but the last two are more important than being a 4.3 vs a 4.5. Look at the best WRs in the NFL. The vast majority are in the 4.45-4.6 range.


Yeah but DeSean Jackson, and Mike Wallace are pretty awesome, and Andre Johnson , and Calvin can fly too. IF you can find Wr,s that are very fast,and have great hands, and run very good route then you just back up a bricks truck into their garage and sign a blank check.

ToldLikeItIs
02-08-2011, 11:03 AM
sounds like djk

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 11:11 AM
Is there a single aspect of physical talent that doesn't get called "overrated" anymore? I'd love to field a team of physically talented players against a team put together by some people here. It would be my team of talented players vs a team of 5'5, 120lb players who take 10 seconds to run a 40 and can't bench 225 even once.

Come on man, i didnt say the wr had to be 5'5 120

i am just sick of tired of guys that cant play going in round 1, top 8 like troy Williamson and DHB, While guys that can play go in round 3 or 4.Pisses me off to no end.

JoeJoeBrown
02-08-2011, 11:13 AM
Yeah but DeSean Jackson, and Mike Wallace are pretty awesome, and Andre Johnson , and Calvin can fly too. IF you can find Wr,s that are very fast,and have great hands, and run very good route then you just back up a bricks truck into their garage and sign a blank check.

That goes without saying. I said it was a "nice to have" after most of the other requirements. It should be a factor, but not a heavily weighted one, all other things considered.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 11:15 AM
no one would chose the 4.2 guy with no hands and cant run routes..

Well Oakland took DHB ,and Vikins took Troy Williamson, and someone too Ted Ginn top 10.

thegreatone
02-08-2011, 11:25 AM
As a Raven fan, no it is not.

AntoinCD
02-08-2011, 11:25 AM
Well Oakland took DHB ,and Vikins took Troy Williamson, and someone too Ted Ginn top 10.

That would be Miami.


It's the same with a lot of positions which aren't in the trenches.

For a WR; having great size, hands and route running ability compensates for not having elite speed. Larry Fitzgerald for example is not a player who will win many races but he is still possibly the best WR in the game. However, the flip side to this is Desean Jackson. He doesn't have great size and his route running could be more refined but his god given speed allows him to do things that Larry Fitzgerald can't.

Other positions where it applies:

Nnamdi Asomugha ran a 4.45 40 but how many 4.3 CBs would you take over him?

Is speed overrated? Of course it is. In a league where the biggest, fastest guy often wins then a premium is put on big, fast guys. However there is no more important thing than technique.

Mr. Goosemahn
02-08-2011, 11:26 AM
Not justifying the picks, I wasn't a fan of them at the time, but I can see why teams would take the risk. You see what guys like DeSean Jackson, Mike Wallace, and others can do to defenses.

That being said, no, a receiver doesn't need to be a 4.3 player to be successful. But is sure as hell helps, and is not overrated.

It's like saying that an offensive lineman doesn't need to be very strong to be good. Technically, no, an offensive lineman doesn't need to put up 25 reps to be good, he could get by with fantastic technique, but having 30+ reps definitely helps. Not necessary, but very useful, and definitely not overrated.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 11:37 AM
Not justifying the picks, I wasn't a fan of them at the time, but I can see why teams would take the risk. You see what guys like DeSean Jackson, Mike Wallace, and others can do to defenses.

That being said, no, a receiver doesn't need to be a 4.3 player to be successful. But is sure as hell helps, and is not overrated.

It's like saying that an offensive lineman doesn't need to be very strong to be good. Technically, no, an offensive lineman doesn't need to put up 25 reps to be good, he could get by with fantastic technique, but having 30+ reps definitely helps. Not necessary, but very useful, and definitely not overrated.

As a REdskins fan we have a Wr like that too Santana Moss its great to have a guy that can take a 10 yard catch and go 98 yards,But at the same time you miss a big body tuff guy thats like 6'5 220 who can get the 3rd down catches over the middle, or a redzone weapon.

Why not just draft a big body great had average speed 4.56 guy in round 2, then a speed jet in round 4 and get a Oline, Qb, in round1.

but if you can find the rare guys like Andre Johnson, Aj green Julio , who can do everything take them top5 and run away like you stole something.

FUNBUNCHER
02-08-2011, 11:56 AM
The key point is that NFL teams must always remember to draft WIDE RECEIVERS, and not just 'tools'.
You can suck in the NFL and run a 4.28.
You can ride the bench and be a 6'5, 230# wideout sculpted like a Greek god.

A WR who can't be counted on to run the correct routes or adjust to soft zones in coverages is nearly worthless, BTW.

DHB may never be a pro bowler, and forever be considered a 'bust' at the spot where he was drafted, however if he ever developed into a 55-65 catch, 800-1100 yards, 5-10 TDs type player, he'll have a 10 year career in the pros.

I'd also argue how quickly a WR gets in and out of his cuts is more important than raw speed.

A guy like Santana Moss is still the SKins best WR because he's quick AND fast.

And all speed is not the same either.

A guy like Jordy Nelson has great long speed, meaning once he catches the ball and takes 3 to four strides downfield, he's gone. He won't beat most corners with one or two steps like Desean Jackson, but if Jordy is running open in the middle of a secondary full stride, he's going to pick up huge yardage, if not take it to the house.

Fitz has similar type of speed, but doesn't have great initial explosiveness.

TACKLE
02-08-2011, 12:21 PM
There's more than one way to skin a cat. For every successful WR who lacks great speed, there is a successful WR with great speed. For every WR who struggled in the NFL who didn't have enough speed, there's a WR who struggled with plenty of speed. Same thing could be said about something like arm strength. There is no secret formula for the physical tools one has to possess to be successful at his position. There is a plethora of ways to get it done regardless of a players physical skill set.

batsandgats
02-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Jordy Nelson? This year's guy for me would be Austin Pettis of Boise St. Size, great hands and enough speed on gameday.

Jordy Nelson ran in the 4.4 range at the combine, thats pretty good/above average especially for his size.

GoRavens
02-08-2011, 12:27 PM
a receiver needs to run over a 4.55 to be productive in the NFL.
routes are more important however, end thread

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
02-08-2011, 12:44 PM
I think we're getting a little mixed up in terminology. It's important to wr PROSPECTS, they'll likely get drafted higher and be given a better opportunity to show what they have. It means less to wr PLAYERS, who've proven they can get open and score. Not fair but thats the way it goes.

Andy Fantuz should be a nice case study for this thread, actually, since hes kind of between the two being a slow NFL prospect after playing a couple years in the CFL.

Don Vito
02-08-2011, 12:48 PM
For every DHB there is a Mike Haas, and for every Wes Welker there is a Calvin Johnson. There is no real rule to determining success with wide receivers, most of it comes from who is throwing them the ball.

Babylon
02-08-2011, 01:20 PM
Jordy Nelson ran in the 4.4 range at the combine, thats pretty good/above average especially for his size.

My recollection was he ran 4.49 and 4.51 on what is usually not a fast track so he was in that range. He isnt what you would call a burner.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 01:46 PM
As a Raven fan, no it is not.

HAHA you never had speed wideouts before lol? But yeah i feel you every team needs speed guy but also a possession 6'3 guy too.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 01:49 PM
a receiver needs to run over a 4.55 to be productive in the NFL.
routes are more important however, end thread

Antwan Boldin ran a 4.75/40 at the combine and is doing just fine.

BuddyCHRIST
02-08-2011, 02:19 PM
I wonder what Hines Ward runs now and days, and he's still a very productive player. Its about hands, routes, toughness and smarts over physical tools the majority of the time. Now there is exceptions both ways, but being a football player is underrated.

armageddon
02-08-2011, 03:39 PM
Holt and Bruce were not burners, they just ran great routes, caught everything thrown to them and were always open. Both are HOF'ers.

armageddon
02-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Hankerson has great hands and speed. He is going to be special imo. Anybody care to do a Hankerson comparison ?

coordinator0
02-08-2011, 03:48 PM
As a Raven fan, no it is not.

Amen. It's not the be-all end-all, but speed is definitely something you need in your receiving corp to at least balance it out.

3pac
02-08-2011, 03:49 PM
Agree that speed is highly overrated. You need to be fast, but elite speed isn't necessary but is just a nice to have.

Great hands, route running, ability to shake off contact at the LOS, ability to make reads and adjust routes based on QB blitz calls or what the defense is showing, ability to catch the ball in traffic across the middle, and blocking ability are all important. All but the last two are more important than being a 4.3 vs a 4.5. Look at the best WRs in the NFL. The vast majority are in the 4.45-4.6 range.

This. For every DeSean Jackson there are are multiple Reggie Wayne, Hines Ward, etc type guys... and how many "raw speed" receivers have been total busts? A lot. At the end of the day, your WR needs to know how to run routes and catch. No point in getting open 40 yards down the field if you can't catch the ball! (Pierre Garcon....)

GB12
02-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Ok what if you get a WR that runs a 4.2 , but cant run route or catch the football. give me Tall 6'4 210 pound guys that have golden hands , and run routes like Marvin Harrison any day of the week.
I'll take a 4.2 guy with golden hands and can run routes like Marvin Harrison over a 6'4 210 pound guy that can't catch or run routes any day.

Yeah, I can do that too. All you said really is that you'd take a super WR over a crappy WR.

Michigan
02-08-2011, 04:01 PM
Is speed overrated?

I9ksRzEuchk

Nebula
02-08-2011, 04:26 PM
If you look at all of the majority of the great receivers in our league, most of them probably run a 4.5 at best. Speed is nice, but there other qualities than speed. There is quickness, power, burst, strength, and other qualities that helps you in and out of your breaks to then make plays. Speed is overrated.

Just look at Dez Bryant. A guy who runs a 4.5 but still makes play of catches on go routes. Why? Not because he outruns the DB but because he can overpower him for the ball because of his sheer strength. I'll take speed with a grain of salt and it seems like scouts never learn their lesson

D-Unit
02-08-2011, 04:50 PM
Cowboys signed a track guy named Teddy Williams to the roster who is 6'3, 200 pounds and runs a 4.27 40. Hasn't caught a pass yet.

Big Bird
02-08-2011, 04:51 PM
Holt and Bruce were not burners, they just ran great routes, caught everything thrown to them and were always open. Both are HOF'ers.
Holt ran a 4.38. He had tremendous speed and quickness in his prime.

And, I'm not sure why anybody would think Leonard Hankerson is a great route runner. The key to route running is quickness, which is where Hankerson is lacking. He just doesn't explode in and out of breaks.

Austin Pettis is a smart Receiver who does some nice things given his obvious deficiencies (Boise says he runs in the 4.6, and usually school's bump your times), but I still see him rounding off some routes in games.

If you want to see great route runners at the college level from this past year, look at Titus Young, who has insane quickness and used it wisely, Derrell Johnson-Koulianos, who is an efficient route runner, and Dwayne Harris, who is very sound as a route runner. Even Torrey Smith is solid, as he explodes out of his breaks and is able to great separation.

SeanTaylorRIP
02-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Speed is not overrated at all unless that's all a receiver has going for him.

GB12
02-08-2011, 05:06 PM
Speed is not overrated at all unless that's all a receiver has going for him.

It seems as if no one here can separate that.

Babylon
02-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Cowboys signed a track guy named Teddy Williams to the roster who is 6'3, 200 pounds and runs a 4.27 40. Hasn't caught a pass yet.

Shades of Renaldo Nehemiah who was the world record holder in the hurdles at 110 meters. He hung around for a few years but wasnt ever much.

Other track guys did pretty well. Henry Carr and Bob Hayes were the first ones i remembered and both had nice careers.

armageddon
02-08-2011, 05:27 PM
Holt ran a 4.38. He had tremendous speed and quickness in his prime.

And, I'm not sure why anybody would think Leonard Hankerson is a great route runner. The key to route running is quickness, which is where Hankerson is lacking. He just doesn't explode in and out of breaks.

Austin Pettis is a smart Receiver who does some nice things given his obvious deficiencies (Boise says he runs in the 4.6, and usually school's bump your times), but I still see him rounding off some routes in games.

If you want to see great route runners at the college level from this past year, look at Titus Young, who has insane quickness and used it wisely, Derrell Johnson-Koulianos, who is an efficient route runner, and Dwayne Harris, who is very sound as a route runner. Even Torrey Smith is solid, as he explodes out of his breaks and is able to great separation.



Holt's years of outrunning people were very few. He was known for a 20 yard catch then taking a dive before getting pounded. Which is fine. No sense getting hammered for an extra yard or two.

REDSKINSWARRIOR82
02-08-2011, 05:36 PM
I didn't say fast wide outs are bad. I just don't think speed is in the top 5 things I want in a wr. I want size,great hands,route running,smarts,strong hands body core.

brasho
02-08-2011, 06:23 PM
a receiver needs to run over a 4.55 to be productive in the NFL.
routes are more important however, end thread

I recall James Jones being called a burner despite running a 4.58 at his pro day and Mario Manningham running 4.59 at the combine, Bernard Berrian a 4.58 at the combine... and all are considered deep threats.

Anquan Boldin ran 4.67, Wes Welker went 4.65 at his pro day, Cris Carter ran a 4.7... he turned out okay as well.

I don't think you can put a number on a guy and say he can't play if he doesn't run such and such...it doesn't hurt and can be a good indicator, but you can't totally preclude guys from playing because the watch says they aren't fast enough. Ernest Wiliford has made a nice career for himself... despite running a 4.79 at the combine (I'm 37 and I know I can still run a ton better than 4.79).

brasho
02-08-2011, 06:24 PM
I didn't say fast wide outs are bad. I just don't think speed is in the top 5 things I want in a wr. I want size,great hands,route running,smarts,strong hands body core.

That's great. When you get named GM of your first NFL team we will all know what you're looking for when you are acquiring players. Thank you.

Nebula
02-08-2011, 07:06 PM
Speed is not overrated at all unless that's all a receiver has going for him.

I think the OP means that speed is overrated in the sense that a receiver who lacks speed coming out of the draft is usually criticized

Because in hindsight, the majority of the receivers around the league today do not have elite speed. Most of them run between late 4.4s/late 4.5s with the most in the 4.5 range

Halsey
02-08-2011, 08:07 PM
I love how running a 4.5 or 4.6 isn't fast. I guess a player is only fast if he runs in the 4.4s or faster. I don't think some of you realize how fast a 4.6 40 is. If speed doesn't matter, where are all the WRs who run a 40 in 4.7 or slower?

FUNBUNCHER
02-08-2011, 09:34 PM
I recall James Jones being called a burner despite running a 4.58 at his pro day and Mario Manningham running 4.59 at the combine, Bernard Berrian a 4.58 at the combine... and all are considered deep threats.

Anquan Boldin ran 4.67, Wes Welker went 4.65 at his pro day, Cris Carter ran a 4.7... he turned out okay as well.

I don't think you can put a number on a guy and say he can't play if he doesn't run such and such...it doesn't hurt and can be a good indicator, but you can't totally preclude guys from playing because the watch says they aren't fast enough. Ernest Wiliford has made a nice career for himself... despite running a 4.79 at the combine (I'm 37 and I know I can still run a ton better than 4.79).

This is an interesting post and why watching game film, understanding how a bad start can dramatically affect a 40 yard dash time and recognizing the difference between quickness and speed is so important.

Berrian/Manningham/James Jones are considered 'burners' in the NFL, if they catch the ball in stride they're scoring.
But apparently all of them ran putrid 40 times, although I'd wager they improved upon those times at their pro days.

One false step in the 40 at the NFL combine in that contorted stance they make prospects crouch in can destroy your 40 time.

If you're scouting a prospect based on how well he's timed and have never seen him play, you're better off throwing darts at a list of the top 300 prospects.

GB12
02-08-2011, 09:35 PM
I definitely wouldn't call James Jones a burner.

FUNBUNCHER
02-08-2011, 09:49 PM
I definitely wouldn't call James Jones a burner.

Who would you consider faster in the open field, Jones, Nelson or Driver??

GB12
02-08-2011, 10:01 PM
Probably a slight edge to Jones, but he and Nelson are pretty close.

Spectre
02-08-2011, 10:04 PM
You don't need to have elite speed as a wideout to have success but the less a guy has, he sure as hell better have some other skills to compensate for it. So long as a wideout has enough speed to get separation, I wouldn't have any big concerns about him performing at an NFL level so long as other talents are there.

PossibleCabbage
02-08-2011, 10:09 PM
Probably a slight edge to Jones, but he and Nelson are pretty close.

I would say it probably depends on how far downfield we're talking about. Jordy accelerates pretty deliberately, but he has a sixth gear that not a lot of people can match.

Shane P. Hallam
02-08-2011, 10:11 PM
It is just a piece to the puzzle. Look at a Johnny Knox or Jacoby Ford. This can go the other way too...

Iamcanadian
02-09-2011, 06:47 PM
NFL scouts know one thing, the vast majority of successful WR's in the NFL run a 4.50 or faster. Receivers who are slower are going to be drafted lower because the odds doesn't bode well for their chances.
Does that mean that slower WR's cannot have some real success in the NFL, obviously not. However, it is extremely difficult to judge how well WR's will adjust to the NFL whether they are fast or not, so teams are always going to take their chances with a faster man.
You have to remember that on deep patterns a tenth of a second equates to 3 feet in seperation and anybody who doesn't think that is significant is kidding himself. No matter what position you play in the NFL, speed kills if a player is talented.

armageddon
02-09-2011, 08:24 PM
Bolden and Fitz were perfect examples. I like the big, strong receiver with good hands. I think Baldwin can fit this mold for a team drafting late rd 1 or early rd 2. If Julio is gone, I would like to see the Rams trade up with their 2nd rounder and get him.

Day One Pick
02-10-2011, 04:35 PM
Unless you are a master of your craft as a wide receiver, speed is pretty necessary to succeed in the NFL. That said, there's not a WR this year, last year, or any other year who is a master of their craft. Speed isn't the most important attribute for a receiver though, and also speed doesn't always mean a player will be a good receiver. Obviously an NFL receiver has to have good hands. They also need to have a high football I.Q. It's been said that next to the quarterback position, the mental transition from college to the pros for a receiver is the next toughest transition. All of that said, route running is absolutely imperative for success as an NFL receiver.

the_dark_knight
02-10-2011, 07:11 PM
I think your reaction to this thread is overrated.

I've discovered already that this is one of the people here to toss on ignore. I haven't been here long, AND I'm a Falcons fan, and I already have 2 Falcons fans on ignore. What a sad reflection, or maybe revelation of our fan base.

cajuncorey
02-10-2011, 09:33 PM
yes it is.

signed,
Darius Heyward-Bey

TACKLE
02-10-2011, 09:36 PM
yes it is.

signed,
Darius Heyward-Bey

yes it is.

signed,
DeSean Jackson and Mike Wallace

JoeJoeBrown
02-10-2011, 10:03 PM
I've discovered already that this is one of the people here to toss on ignore. I haven't been here long, AND I'm a Falcons fan, and I already have 2 Falcons fans on ignore. What a sad reflection, or maybe revelation of our fan base.

I wouldn't worry. No one is going to take it as an indication of your fanbase. No worries. It just makes the load on your shoulders that much heavier :)

descendency
02-10-2011, 10:29 PM
You never had to be a 4.4 guy to be an elite WR in the league.

Theres a reason guys like Rice

Rice ran 4.4.

edit: The rumor that his combine time (or whatever people keep quoting at "4.6") was so low is because he didn't want to go to a bad team. But there are tons of people who know Rice could run a 4.4

=====

edit2: If you are a half decent WR in most aspects, speed is definitely the most important aspect of the game. Many burners blow hard in certain aspects of the game but there is no remedy for a guy who can just go deep at will. Everything changes when you have that kind of speed. You can give me examples of a lot of bad route runners or guys who can't beat press or track speed guys... but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the guys who can do that at a basic and semi-competent level.

Once you have that, there is very little you can do to counter speed other than double cover and once you start to double cover someone, you basically admit they are one of the top so many WRs in the NFL.

ellsy82
02-11-2011, 12:41 AM
Speed matters. Buts its not the only thing. Its that "quick-twitch" athlete that makes a receiver great. A guy that can take that speed, and explode past a defender. Burn him good, and deep. Wallace, Williams, Steve Smith, Jerry Rice. Its the EXPLOSION off his route that makes him great. The guy that thoroughly beats his man off the ball. Speed matters, but it definitely isn't everything.

the_dark_knight
02-11-2011, 08:58 AM
Jerry Rice and Anquan Boldin both have the same speed imo. Once they get past you, you're not going to catch them, no matter how fast you are, or what you ran in the 40, it's like those guys don't perform well in speed tests, but when it comes to getting caught, they're not going to let it happen, and they just will themselves faster.

So yea, Jerry prolly did run a 4.6, and honestly in his day that's plenty fast. I think a big part of why people worry so much about 40s is the ability to break free of coverage. Everyone knows the big play isn't going to happen very often in football, so they want the speed to be able to make up for any lack of precision in the route running. Now a days you get people who are insanely quick, but lack it on the top end, and they're able to get open and cause havoc. Look at Wes Welker, that guy is slower than anything, but he's always open. You're not going to see Welker beat anyone deep, but you'll see him standing there wide open 80% of the game because he's so quick, and he's so relentless.

So speed, overrated? It totally depends on the prospect. A guy like Lauverneus Coles was built on speed and speed alone, he couldn't run routes and he wasn't tough. But that speed gave him a few good years in the NFL. When he started to slow down his career went up in smoke in no time. So, it totally depends. Just because a guy is fast doesn't mean he'll be a success, but just because a guy is 'slow' doesn't mean he's bound to be a failure either. Speed is awesome...in Madden...

WCH
02-11-2011, 09:36 AM
Mike Wallace ran the second fastest 40 in 2009 and had better college production than DHB their last two seasons. If Al Davis had overdrafted on Wallace in that slot, we probably wouldn't be talking about speed being overrated.

As far as combine numbers are concerned, my opinion is that the long shuttle is much more important for WRs. Unfortunately, a lot of players don't run it at the combine.

FUNBUNCHER
02-11-2011, 09:59 AM
Jerry Rice and Anquan Boldin both have the same speed imo.


I get your point and agree with you, but Jerry Rice wasn't a 4.6 WR and is a part of the 'Jerry Rice myth' that's been perpetuated for decades by the media and left coasters.

Gil Brandt himself recalls Rice running 4.4s at Mississippi Valley State. Granted running a 4.6 in the 1980s isn't the same speed as today, but Rice flat out burned DBs stride for stride in his hey day. Just a point.

Buffalo M
02-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Jery Rice coming out ran a 4.65.

Iamcanadian
02-11-2011, 06:10 PM
Jerry Rice and Anquan Boldin both have the same speed imo. Once they get past you, you're not going to catch them, no matter how fast you are, or what you ran in the 40, it's like those guys don't perform well in speed tests, but when it comes to getting caught, they're not going to let it happen, and they just will themselves faster.

So yea, Jerry prolly did run a 4.6, and honestly in his day that's plenty fast. I think a big part of why people worry so much about 40s is the ability to break free of coverage. Everyone knows the big play isn't going to happen very often in football, so they want the speed to be able to make up for any lack of precision in the route running. Now a days you get people who are insanely quick, but lack it on the top end, and they're able to get open and cause havoc. Look at Wes Welker, that guy is slower than anything, but he's always open. You're not going to see Welker beat anyone deep, but you'll see him standing there wide open 80% of the game because he's so quick, and he's so relentless.

So speed, overrated? It totally depends on the prospect. A guy like Lauverneus Coles was built on speed and speed alone, he couldn't run routes and he wasn't tough. But that speed gave him a few good years in the NFL. When he started to slow down his career went up in smoke in no time. So, it totally depends. Just because a guy is fast doesn't mean he'll be a success, but just because a guy is 'slow' doesn't mean he's bound to be a failure either. Speed is awesome...in Madden...

Actually Gil Brandt, Chief Scout of the Cowboys timed Rice at the combine at 4.40.
Why people use Rice and Bolden as examples of slow 40 guys is beyond me, Bolden was coming off a serious leg injury at the combine and ran with a noticeable limp, he only ran to show pro scouts he was healing nicely. As for Rice, players didn't train for the combine like they do today, if he had trained for the combine, he probably runs in the 4.3's.

nobodyinparticular
02-11-2011, 06:34 PM
Ok what if you get a WR that runs a 4.2 , but cant run route or catch the football. give me Tall 6'4 210 pound guys that have golden hands , and run routes like Marvin Harrison any day of the week.

A) Marvin Harrison was a freaking blazer when he came into the league

B) Jacoby Ford

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Take a look at that first video and the first catch Ford makes after the drops. Look how far Ford is from the line of scrimmage--25 yards--and Flowers is still giving him more than a 7 yard cushion.

That's what speed does for you.

TheFinisher
02-11-2011, 06:38 PM
I don't get too caught up in the 40 times. These guys all spend weeks before the combine and pro days solely focusing on getting their 40 times down. One example I can give you is Ray Rice, we grew up in the same neighborhood and he never ran a great 40. When he first went to Parisi in Jersey to train pre-combine his first time was a 4.6 something and iirc he got that down to a 4.40 in Indy. Running a 40 is much more about technique, there's a science to it. Ray never knew all the little tricks there were to running a fast time, which probably always kept him from running a faster time than he could have back in HS and college.

It also works in the opposite. There are some guys with track backgrounds who will tear it up in the 40 but when they put the pads on the coaches ask themselves "where's that 4.3 speed?".

I'm drifting off topic but you get the point, I'd much rather see a guy run away from people on the field as opposed to running a sub 4.4 on a track. For the Cowboys Dez Bryant only ran a 4.52 or something like that and scouts questioned his speed, but when you look at the film he runs by people.

EDIT: As far as game speed, no I don't think that's overrated.

CaneGang
02-14-2011, 12:45 AM
Speed isn't overrated, but drills like the forty are VASTLY overrated. The fact that a guy can be mediocre his whole college career and then run a sub 4.3 at the combine and get drafted a few rounds earlier because of it is ridiculous.

If a player has great straight line speed, great, awesome. But if he doesn't know where to direct his speed or can't find the ball his speed means nothing.

People are too quick to disregard a players body of work in college because of a bad combine or pro day.

Halsey
02-14-2011, 03:15 AM
Everyone calls the 40 yard dash overrated. Who are these people that say the 40 yard dash is the end all, be all? If everyone calls something overrated, it's not really overrated.