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Rosebud
01-14-2013, 12:42 PM
I'm not saying it has anything to do with his leadership, but at this point in Tuck's career there are a lot of games and downs were he doesn't make an impact on the field, with some games and instances where he still beasts. I can't know exactly why that is, but it is what it is and it would be in the best interests of the team's success to recognize that and use him more like you do a streaky scorer in basketball, if he's on that night ride him and if he's cold utilize your other options.

Giantsfan1080
01-14-2013, 12:42 PM
He's been hurt for the last 2 years and just because he isn't playing well doesn't mean he's not trying. You don't know what he was saying in the locker room plus when they did show him giving his pregame speech he certainly had everyone fired up then. Who gives a **** what he says to Mike Francesa on a Monday afternoon? Eli was saying the same bland **** as Tuck but you haven't said anything about him.

Yeah and we still finished the season 9-7 and we can look to about a million different turning points as to why the season turned the way it did. Tuck's leadership is not one of them.

bigbluedefense
01-14-2013, 12:49 PM
He isn't trying. Dude just watch his snaps, he took tons of plays off this year. TONS. His motor ran very cold many times. His effort vs Atlanta and Baltimore were downright pathetic.

I know Eli is giving 1000% on every snap. I can't say the same for Tuck. Eli never got called out for poor practice habits. Tuck did. Eli has never been called out for being soft, Tuck has.

Take the blinders off, and look at the product on the field. The film doesn't lie. This guy was loafing around out there. And when teammates call you out, there's a cause for concern.

Giantsfan1080
01-14-2013, 01:27 PM
He isn't trying. Dude just watch his snaps, he took tons of plays off this year. TONS. His motor ran very cold many times. His effort vs Atlanta and Baltimore were downright pathetic.

I know Eli is giving 1000% on every snap. I can't say the same for Tuck. Eli never got called out for poor practice habits. Tuck did. Eli has never been called out for being soft, Tuck has.

Take the blinders off, and look at the product on the field. The film doesn't lie. This guy was loafing around out there. And when teammates call you out, there's a cause for concern.

There is a good thread on BBI about Tuck right now. He's always been hurt since Flozell tripped him and he still guts it out. I think you're way off base.

Big_Pete
01-14-2013, 01:42 PM
What matters is that Jerry Reese thinks Tuck can rebound and has a lot left in the tank.

bigbluedefense
01-14-2013, 02:09 PM
There is a good thread on BBI about Tuck right now. He's always been hurt since Flozell tripped him and he still guts it out. I think you're way off base.

That Flozell injury was like 4 years ago. It's not an excuse anymore. Tuck has had a reputation for being soft about injuries even during his college days. That's why he fell in the draft, he had an injury history and worse, he didn't handle injuries well mentally.

The realistic expectation is he's never going to be healthy anymore, and worse, bc of that, we're not gonna see him play with a high motor every play. Nothing irks me more than DLmen who play with an inconsistent motor. His last productive year was 2010, and he before that 2008. Basically, since he became a fulltime starter in 2008, he's had 2 productive years. In 5 years. That's awful. And it's not magically gonna get better with age and injuries, and complacency.

BBI is a good website, but they're a homerfest. You gotta take that information with a grain of salt.

Giantsfan1080
01-14-2013, 02:18 PM
That Flozell injury was like 4 years ago. It's not an excuse anymore. Tuck has had a reputation for being soft about injuries even during his college days. That's why he fell in the draft, he had an injury history and worse, he didn't handle injuries well mentally.

The realistic expectation is he's never going to be healthy anymore, and worse, bc of that, we're not gonna see him play with a high motor every play. Nothing irks me more than DLmen who play with an inconsistent motor. His last productive year was 2010, and he before that 2008. Basically, since he became a fulltime starter in 2008, he's had 2 productive years. In 5 years. That's awful. And it's not magically gonna get better with age and injuries, and complacency.

BBI is a good website, but they're a homerfest. You gotta take that information with a grain of salt.

I've mentioned a few times this year I think Tuck is done. I'm fine with you going after his game because clearly he did jack this year. I just think the other stuff you keep bringing up is unfair especially when we're not in the locker room but I'll give it a rest now.

My only hope is that Tuck in a limited role as a 3rd or 4th DE can give us good snaps again. He clearly shouldn't start anymore.

Big_Pete
01-14-2013, 03:47 PM
Should we consider moving Tuck inside to DT?

With a good offseason program he should be able to add 20lbs of muscle.

scottyboy
01-14-2013, 03:52 PM
so reading up on Sam Montgomery of LSU, I'd like him. He's versatile as hell and would be a nice RE so JPP could play LE. He may not be the sexy, flashy pick, but I think he'd be very nice to add. Him in the first would be a pretty damn good pick IMO

Big_Pete
01-14-2013, 04:14 PM
I want JPP to stick at RDE and not move him around. Let him develop at the one position and learn his craft.

I'm not that enamoured with Montgomery or Jordan for that matter. They seem to be passrushing RDEs, we already have JPP.

We need to get a LDE

Forenci
01-14-2013, 04:41 PM
I've mentioned a few times this year I think Tuck is done. I'm fine with you going after his game because clearly he did jack this year. I just think the other stuff you keep bringing up is unfair especially when we're not in the locker room but I'll give it a rest now.

My only hope is that Tuck in a limited role as a 3rd or 4th DE can give us good snaps again. He clearly shouldn't start anymore.

I normally agree with you on things like this GF, but Tuck's lack of trying ON the field is a big part of leadership. If you're a leader on the team you can't just give up on plays which to me he clearly was doing.

I understand injury may play into this, but from all accounts Tuck is healthy. I can't give him a break if I don't know of an undisclosed injury.

That and his comments about "turning it on when we need to" or "looking at our history" and such were a load of garbage. As fans, we can have this attitude, but as a player to just EXPECT things to happen and adjust themselves is insane. Maybe its injury with Tuck, maybe he just sucks and doesn't care, or maybe after winning another Superbowl he's lost his motivation. I couldn't say.

I do think it's fair to question his leadership when he's quite visibly not putting in the effort. I can't comment on inside the locker room but I can look at the available evidence to me.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-14-2013, 06:12 PM
I think the team lacked motivation to a certain extent this year. I'm not saying they weren't motivated at all, because of course they want to win the Super Bowl and defend their title and what have you.

But they weren't motivated enough throughout the season. I wouldn't say the horrible losses are examples of when they weren't motivated enough. But the great games, the 49er game and the Packer game, those are examples of when we were top motivated to go out and get a W. We wanted to play 49ers, the best team in the NFC (IMO), and we wanted to show the packers we hadn't forgotten the lack of respect from them after we won there last year. And we looked like the best team in the NFL.

I think that team is our real identity. At least something closer to that, than to the Giants versions that lost in horrible fashion to the Falcons and Ravens. But we just didn't manage to stay top motivated for long stretches of games this season. My reasoning for doubting the team this season never had anything to do with physical talent. It had to do with the mental state of the team, judging from interviews and press conferences.

I think we will be back in top contention next year. The carrot of being able to possibly play a Super Bowl in your home stadium should provide motivation enough for the players. Combined with the fact that they now won't be hailed as the reigning champs everywhere they go this offseason.

At least that's what I'm hoping for.

Big_Pete
01-14-2013, 06:33 PM
I think part of the attitude stuff started in preseason

1. Some players rested on their achievements last year a little after the superbowl and didn't work as hard they previously did in offseason. They lost that edge and hunger.

2. We had a lot of defesnive guys in particular with injuring issues both in offseason and regular season. With the new CBA and the limited contact /practices there wasn't enough reps with the starters to properly prepare.

3. We had consistently changing lineups, particularly on defense. Lot of players got banged up, which meant we often had fluctuating player combinations in practice and games as we had to adjust. We couldn't get establish combinations and become a cohesive unit. We were more a group of individuals.

4. The defensive players didn't hit the panic button, there wasn't that sense of urgency/deperation that was needed. The players were confident they could turn it on when needed, but when it counted, they couldn't.


The first and last points come very down to leadership. Honestly Tuck was one of the biggest culprits.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-15-2013, 11:17 AM
I've heard the Tuck leadership debate as well. One can say that he didn't want the role. That Strahan retired and we were at a place where we needed a guy. I still remember writers and people asking Tuck, "Are you going to be a leader for the Giants?" I always felt like it fell to him, rather than him naturally standing up and being one.

Last season he was down in the dumps, and had to meet with Coughlin to be "all in" and played hard. I think he is good with vocal speeches before games and stuff, but if a leader, leads by example, then I wouldn't say Tuck is a leader.

If people like the speeches and stuff then I guess you can say he does that well. But I will say this it's hard to lead when you are so injury prone and rendered ineffective throughout a season.

Big_Pete
01-15-2013, 02:14 PM
Terrell Thomas is talking about his injury comeback

http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=8846288&city=newyork

He has a tough road ahead, we will have to see how he goes. But I hope he can comeback. If we can get him cheaply it is worth a shot.

After people like Peterson can rebound as well as he did after his ACL issue, all bets are off. The key will be when he starts running

bigbluedefense
01-15-2013, 02:21 PM
I'm not holding my breathe, but I would love to see him come back. They have to approach the offseason as if he's no longer on the team and can't be relied upon anymore though.

Giantsfan1080
01-15-2013, 02:35 PM
He'd probably be moved to S if he does indeed come back.

bigbluedefense
01-15-2013, 02:36 PM
I don't get that either. Isn't his ACL safer as a CB? Safeties go in the box and make more tackles, fight through more traffic, and play the middle of the field.

Giantsfan1080
01-15-2013, 02:38 PM
Probably a speed/cutting issue more so than a preventive measure.

Big_Pete
01-15-2013, 03:04 PM
If we can resign Phillips and Brown plus successfully move Thomas to safety, then we have an exceptionally strong group of safeties with Phillips, Rolle, Thomas, Brown and Hill/Sash.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-16-2013, 12:00 AM
Marc Ross pulled out of the running to become the next Jets manager! This probably means he won't be going anywhere this season, as there's no more open GM positions his name has been linked to! Good News!

Also, Eli Manning is going to replace Aaron Rodgers in the Pro Bowl. Not that anyone really cares about that stupid game, but I might just watch it now just to get to look at Eli launching bombs one last time before august.

Forenci
01-16-2013, 12:20 AM
Haha, well that's good news. Fortunately for us the Jets are a terrible organization who could have had Ross if they got rid of their fool of a head coach.

Giantsfan1080
01-16-2013, 07:25 AM
Good news for us. Looks like our false smear campaign worked.

Rosebud
01-16-2013, 08:45 AM
Good news for us. Looks like our false smear campaign worked.

High fives all around! There's nothing you can't accomplish with hardwork, dedication, and lots and lots of lies.

Giantsfan1080
01-16-2013, 08:47 AM
As a going away present to us since he'll definitely get a job next year, Ross should take this draft and get us a starter with every pick including multiple Pro Bowlers and even 1 HOF. It's the least he can do for us.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2013, 08:48 AM
I could imagine the warroom in Carolina too. They were like

"Well we like both of the Giants candidates, but how do we know which one to choose?"

"Ross is black sir"

"Hmmm. I think we'll go with Gettleman"

Giantsfan1080
01-16-2013, 08:49 AM
I could imagine the warroom in Carolina too. They were like

"Well we like both of the Giants candidates, but how do we know which one to choose?"

"Ross is black sir"

"Hmmm. I think we'll go with Gettleman"

Normally I'd agree but since Accorsi was running the search I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one since he hired Reese.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2013, 08:51 AM
I know. I was just being humorous.

CollegeFan
01-16-2013, 08:57 AM
Haha, well that's good news. Fortunately for us the Jets are a terrible organization who could have had Ross if they got rid of their fool of a head coach.

Ya i agree. Ross would've been the Giants loss and the Jets gain

Giantsfan1080
01-16-2013, 08:59 AM
I know you were but the sad thing is that I'm sure their has been conversations like that in NFL offices.

I know I was shocked when I found out Reese and Ross were black. I had no idea that was the case when Accorsi announced his retirement.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-16-2013, 11:21 AM
I know you were but the sad thing is that I'm sure their has been conversations like that in NFL offices.

I know I was shocked when I found out Reese and Ross were black. I had no idea that was the case when Accorsi announced his retirement.

Yeah, I was shocked as well. It's not like they have the stereotypical black names, like Jaquain or Jamarcus. I mean, Jerry Reese sounds like an old white dude, and Marc Ross sounds like a sort of *** waiter at a high-end restaurant, lol.

But I'm kind of glad they are black. It shows progress in the world, and it shows that the Giants as an organization will get the best guy for the job, no matter their ethnicity.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2013, 11:24 AM
Bob Griffin and the spread option is in Washington.

Now we have Chip Kelly in Philadelphia.

If there ever was a time to switch up from our philosophy and get fast linebackers who can cover the middle of the field, now is the time to do it. If we continue to put slow linebackers in our defense and just rely on the DL and secondary to make things happen, we're in for a world of hurt in our own division.

Rosebud
01-16-2013, 11:26 AM
As a going away present to us since he'll definitely get a job next year, Ross should take this draft and get us a starter with every pick including multiple Pro Bowlers and even 1 HOF. It's the least he can do for us.

And if he doesn't get a GM job after doing that, he'll just give up and stay JR's lifelong second hand.

Giantsfan1080
01-16-2013, 11:51 AM
Bob Griffin and the spread option is in Washington.

Now we have Chip Kelly in Philadelphia.

If there ever was a time to switch up from our philosophy and get fast linebackers who can cover the middle of the field, now is the time to do it. If we continue to put slow linebackers in our defense and just rely on the DL and secondary to make things happen, we're in for a world of hurt in our own division.

Yeah I wonder how much this affects what the FO does. Certainly interesting and a new wrinkle.

Forenci
01-16-2013, 11:53 AM
Meh, no need to switch our philosophy too much. Get to the QB and defend the pass. That's our bread and butter and will work against any offense.

That said, Fewell will probably play zone all day and we'll get picked apart. Can't do much about that though.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2013, 12:51 PM
And that's the problem. You can't be a good zone defense without linebackers. I know you guys want to avoid the linebacker position but we have to start addressing it.

Forenci
01-16-2013, 03:11 PM
Well my hope, and perhaps this is foolish, is that we will dump Fewell in the near future. I don't want to draft a bunch of speedy, undersized LB's and then switch defensive coordinators where they are then irrelevant.

Linebacker is a big need, but I'm more interested in addressing the critical positions. We've won two Super Bowls with average to below average LB's. You don't need great LB's to win. If our team had less holes to fill on defense I would be happy to grab a LB early. We don't have that luxury.

Big_Pete
01-16-2013, 03:34 PM
It looks like Lovie Smith missed out on a HC job, seems unlikely to take a DC job and wants to be a head coach in 2014 (he is still getting paid from Chicago).

I wonder if Lovie Smith would be interested in a one year assistant Head Coach deal much like Dick Lebeau did in 2003 in Buffalo after getting fired from Cincinnati.

Smith has worked with Fewell in the past and would be of particular help tweaking Fewell's schemes and working on our key areas of need like linebackers. It also would subtley put Fewell on notice that he has to perfom while keeping with the Giants tradition of being patient and loyal to staff.

Big_Pete
01-16-2013, 03:37 PM
Well my hope, and perhaps this is foolish, is that we will dump Fewell in the near future. I don't want to draft a bunch of speedy, undersized LB's and then switch defensive coordinators where they are then irrelevant.

Linebacker is a big need, but I'm more interested in addressing the critical positions. We've won two Super Bowls with average to below average LB's. You don't need great LB's to win. If our team had less holes to fill on defense I would be happy to grab a LB early. We don't have that luxury.

I really think we would probably be ok with one good speedy MLB
sure we can look at depth, particularly if great value slipped to us.

I expect we will bring Rivers back cheaply and with Williams and Paysinger we have a decent group of young athletic OLBs.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2013, 03:45 PM
Speedy linebackers will always have a place on our defense bc we're sticking with the 4-3 for a long while. As long as JPP is on this team, it will be a 4-3 defense.

So even if Fewell is gone, good linebackers will have a place on this defense. Hell, good linebackers have a place in any system.

Look at guys like Daryl Washington or Bruce Carter. Both guys were thought to be exclusively 4-3 WILLs coming out and they're doing just fine in a 3-4 defense.

The truth is every defense is pretty much a 1 gap defense nowadays, even the 3-4 fronts. So it doesn't make a difference.

scottyboy
01-16-2013, 03:50 PM
you know who's a speedy linebacker?

Khaseem Greene.

boom.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2013, 03:52 PM
We need a compliment to JWill. Not another version of him.

Ideally I want a Bobby Wagner type of MIKE in round 2 and I'll be a happy camper.

OSUGiants17
01-16-2013, 04:03 PM
I want Minter or Brown, but I can't see them being worth 19 or there round 2 which makes me sad.

Big_Pete
01-16-2013, 04:06 PM
We need a compliment to JWill. Not another version of him.

Ideally I want a Bobby Wagner type of MIKE in round 2 and I'll be a happy camper.

Ideally yes MLB is the need, if Greene was the best player available we should consider it, Williams is an RFA after the season I believe and is a position we could upgrade. Either Greene or Williams might be able to flip to SLB in Fewell's system as well.

Big_Pete
01-16-2013, 04:07 PM
I want Minter or Brown, but I can't see them being worth 19 or there round 2 which makes me sad.

I think Brown is a chance to be there in the second round.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-17-2013, 09:23 PM
Ray horton left the Cardinals after they hired Arians. I want him soo bad. He's an awesome coordinator, and a future HC I think. I know it's not going to happen, but a man can dream.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-20-2013, 05:05 PM
YES! No SB for the Falcons! Sorry Smitty, that sucks for you!

Forenci
01-20-2013, 05:06 PM
Haha, I hate the 49ers fans but I was rooting for the 9ers because Smith is a douche bag.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-20-2013, 05:11 PM
Hahaha I hate both teams and in fact all 4 playoff teams left. However, this was an easy game to pick. Always against Coach Smith! This next game will be tough. I hate the Harbaughs, so I think I will go Pats.

Matty Ice was put on Ice in the second half!

LTgiants
01-20-2013, 11:28 PM
Can someone explain to me the why Mike Smith is a douche story? Cause I seem to have missed it and have no idea what everyone is talking about.

Forenci
01-20-2013, 11:53 PM
Long story short, he screwed over NYG pretty badly. It was posted a little while ago with the full details so you might be able to find it.

He's a douche and I'm glad he lost.

LTgiants
01-21-2013, 12:02 AM
Long story short, he screwed over NYG pretty badly. It was posted a little while ago with the full details so you might be able to find it.

He's a douche and I'm glad he lost.

Ya I heard that part. I was kind of hoping to either hear or in this case read the long story with the details.

Forenci
01-21-2013, 12:05 AM
Haha if I wasn't at work I'd look it up but you might be able to search this thread. Just type in Mike Smith or something.

LTgiants
01-21-2013, 12:26 AM
Ok. I found it. I am sorry to hear about what happened to you NYG that sucks. Now I get why he is a douche.

Big_Pete
01-21-2013, 04:55 AM
Adam Schefter is reporting that the Eagles are interviewing Giants' LB coach Jim Herrmann for their vacant defensive coordinator position.

What is everyone's thought on this if Hermann was to leave?

NY+Giants=NYG
01-21-2013, 09:25 AM
Ok. I found it. I am sorry to hear about what happened to you NYG that sucks. Now I get why he is a douche.

Hey man,

Yeah it's my own personal anger towards the Falcons and Mike Smith. The players were cool to me, and the best was Gonzo. Probably the coolest athlete I ever met. Every day he would say hi to me, and just an all around cool guy. Same with Matt Ryan. Very good guy too.

Just Smitty I dislike greatly. You can even toss the video guy in there too with the initials M.C.

So now I go out of my way to actively root against them.

bigbluedefense
01-21-2013, 11:33 AM
Adam Schefter is reporting that the Eagles are interviewing Giants' LB coach Jim Herrmann for their vacant defensive coordinator position.

What is everyone's thought on this if Hermann was to leave?

He withdrew his name so it doesn't matter anymore.

Having that said, I wouldn't care either way. He hasn't done wonders with our linebackers, and he's coached under Perry Fewell. If you're hiring the guy, it would be for his college resume, not what he did with the pros.

scottyboy
01-21-2013, 02:06 PM
dammit, that would've been Jessie Armstead's big break! promoted to LB coach!

bigbluedefense
01-22-2013, 11:24 AM
Had to change the name of the thread guys. Unfortunately, there's gonna be a new Super Bowl champion.

It was fun while it lasted.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-23-2013, 11:43 AM
Yeah that's fine by me. Maybe this upcoming season we can play out our ability. My motivation is that this is Fewells last year. If we happen to extend him I will go nuts! God help us if.we are that dumb.

Forenci
01-23-2013, 12:40 PM
Knowing our luck Coughlin will retire and we will promote Fewell to head coach.

Sorry that is a cruel joke to say.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-23-2013, 12:45 PM
Had to change the name of the thread guys. Unfortunately, there's gonna be a new Super Bowl champion.

It was fun while it lasted.

Sad :( Oh well, we'll win the thread title back next year!

bigbluedefense
01-23-2013, 02:08 PM
Justin Tuck is such a turd sometimes. He says after looking at the tape in the offseason man what was I doing.

You couldn't ask yourself that when you were watching the tape during the season? Oh yeah, that's right. You didn't give a ****.

Just admit you don't care anymore. Or that you cant do it anymore.

And I'm tired of the injuries excuse. Yes, he's injured. But he's notorious for moping about injuries. Justin Smith is playing with torn triceps. I've seen Smith play with 100X more effort than Justin Tuck this season. It's mental sometimes. And when Tuck is hurt, he checks out.

I hate to bash on the guy so much bc he's been great for us, but I'm getting really tired of his act. He's done.

Big_Pete
01-23-2013, 05:01 PM
The more I think about it, the more I believe we will look to address LB in free agency. That is what we have done in the past to address LB need, Eg Barrow, Pierce, Arrington and Boley.

I wouldn't be surprised if we are very interested in Erin Henderson.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-23-2013, 05:45 PM
Justin Tuck is such a turd sometimes. He says after looking at the tape in the offseason man what was I doing.

You couldn't ask yourself that when you were watching the tape during the season? Oh yeah, that's right. You didn't give a ****.

Just admit you don't care anymore. Or that you cant do it anymore.

And I'm tired of the injuries excuse. Yes, he's injured. But he's notorious for moping about injuries. Justin Smith is playing with torn triceps. I've seen Smith play with 100X more effort than Justin Tuck this season. It's mental sometimes. And when Tuck is hurt, he checks out.

I hate to bash on the guy so much bc he's been great for us, but I'm getting really tired of his act. He's done.

This x10. It really provoked me to read those comments today. I mean, he probably saw the exact same tape during the season, but didn't think it warranted a change then? What the hell?

We'll se if he comes back to have a "Justin Tuck type of year" next season, as he claims. Regardless of if he manages to get back to double digit sacks, I don't want to give him a new contract. It could just be a business decision for him to give it his all this upcoming season, so he can go back to being lethargic once he signs his new contract.

bigbluedefense
01-23-2013, 09:06 PM
In a sadistic way, I hope he has a poor season. Bc I do not want to extend him and the only way I see that happening is if he has another moping, chew on my mouthpiece on the sidelines and give half ass effort on the field kind of a season.

Big_Pete
01-23-2013, 09:29 PM
Surely Tuck, Nunn and Fewell watch tape during the season. They knew what was happening and yet didn't correct it. This is a professional player and team leader we are talking about, what kind of example is he setting for the team?

I would be happy if we traded Tuck, there will be some DE needy teams out there who need help at LDE particular with Tuck's pedigree. I could easily see teams like Oakland, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Miami etc be willing to part with a mid round pick for Tuck.

We could use the cap savings to bring in the black unicorns little brother. He may not be in Tucks class but at least he can be healthy, wants to be here and will give maximum effort.

bigbluedefense
01-23-2013, 09:32 PM
They'll never do that. Tuck is relatively cheap and it's not the Giant way to do something like that to a guy who meant so much to the franchise.

They'll let him play out his contract, and if he still sucks they'll let him walk off into the sunset.

Rosebud
01-23-2013, 10:23 PM
I really hope we win the Super Bowl next year so Tuck can just retire.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-24-2013, 08:54 AM
So if there's any truth to the Revis trade speculation, would we be interested at all? I know he would demand a huge contract, and we probably wouldn't be able to afford it. But man, it would be so sweet to have him on our team! He's probably my favorite defensive player in the NFL not currently wearing a Giants uniform.

bigbluedefense
01-24-2013, 10:08 AM
I wish we would do it. You all know how I feel about Revis. I'd give up our 1st and 2nd and a 5th for Revis.

Forenci
01-24-2013, 11:00 AM
Well, I sort of want to see how he comes back from injury. Why would the Jets trade him? Maybe he's not his old self.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-24-2013, 12:56 PM
Well, I sort of want to see how he comes back from injury. Why would the Jets trade him? Maybe he's not his old self.

It's supposedly the owner who wants to trade him, or entertain offers. Rex does not want to trade him. I think the reasoning is because they're afraid of another holdout, not his injury status.

I too, like BBD would be willing to part ways with our first round pick and a late round pick for him. He's much better than any player we could get in the first of this years draft(at least that's highly likely).

It's a shame we can't afford it cap-wise.

bigbluedefense
01-24-2013, 01:01 PM
Think about it this way.

Would you trade a 1st and a 2nd round pick for a 27 year old first ballot HOF player?

Bc I sure as hell would. You'll be lucky if you grab 2 starters with those picks let alone a HOFer like Revis.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-24-2013, 01:12 PM
Think about it this way.

Would you trade a 1st and a 2nd round pick for a 27 year old first ballot HOF player?

Bc I sure as hell would. You'll be lucky if you grab 2 starters with those picks let alone a HOFer like Revis.

I would do it in an instant. But the problem is renewing his contract, and fitting it under the salary cap. I mean, can you imagine our pass D with Revis and Amukamara at corner, and Rolle- Phillips/Brown at safety.

We could use our remaining picks on OL, DL and LBs and fix our run offense and defense, and we'd be set. I think we could get Revis for say this years first and a conditional third(goes up to second or down to fourth) based on play next season. I would jump that possibility in an instant if it's doable cap-wise

bigbluedefense
01-24-2013, 06:02 PM
Spags got fired! For the love of God Mara, bring him back!

BRING HIM BACK!!!

Big_Pete
01-24-2013, 06:56 PM
Spags got fired! For the love of God Mara, bring him back!

BRING HIM BACK!!!

Id be happy with him as assistant head coach/LB coach too

Big_Pete
01-24-2013, 07:02 PM
I would do it in an instant. But the problem is renewing his contract, and fitting it under the salary cap. I mean, can you imagine our pass D with Revis and Amukamara at corner, and Rolle- Phillips/Brown at safety.

We could use our remaining picks on OL, DL and LBs and fix our run offense and defense, and we'd be set. I think we could get Revis for say this years first and a conditional third(goes up to second or down to fourth) based on play next season. I would jump that possibility in an instant if it's doable cap-wise

I believe we would only be on the hook for $6m this year for revis, he had a lot of guaranteed money. After 2013 is void able so not sure about that.
Still webster's base salary is $7m so we could afford it.

Cb is probably our biggest need

here is the details of Revis' contract from rotoworld,

9/6/2010: Signed a four-year, $46 million contract. The deal contains $32.5 million guaranteed, including all of Revis' first two base salaries and an $18 million first-year option bonus. 2013: $3 million (+ $1 million workout bonus + $1 million roster bonus due 3/16 + $1 million reporting bonus), 2014-2016: (Voidable Years) $3 million, 2017: Free Agent


remember we would not be on the hook for the guaranteed money

Giantsfan1080
01-24-2013, 07:10 PM
Oh please Reese!!!! Make it happen.

Big_Pete
01-24-2013, 07:32 PM
Oh please Reese!!!! Make it happen.

Revis, Spags or both?

Giantsfan1080
01-24-2013, 07:39 PM
Revis, Spags or both?

Spags is possible. Revis not so much. Would love both.

bigbluedefense
01-24-2013, 07:44 PM
Make him a LB coach/Assistant HC. At the very worst, it puts some heat on Fewell and he won't be as tempted to go full ****** on us anymore.

And if he does, fire him midseason and promote Spags. Boom.

Giantsfan1080
01-24-2013, 07:47 PM
You don't have to convince me about anything. This makes too much sense. Make it happen!!!!!!!!

Big_Pete
01-24-2013, 07:59 PM
Think about it this way.

Would you trade a 1st and a 2nd round pick for a 27 year old first ballot HOF player?

Bc I sure as hell would. You'll be lucky if you grab 2 starters with those picks let alone a HOFer like Revis.
Considering Revis's injury history, I think a 2013 2nd round pick and conditional 2014 1st/2nd/3rd pick is more likely if Revis checks out medically.

Forenci
01-24-2013, 08:22 PM
I don't see it happening. Mara's are probably too classy to let anyone go to make room for Spags and/or basically have someone as a fall back for Fewell.

That and Coughlin never likes letting people go. I would love for it to go down but it won't happen. Someone else will scoop him up.

Rosebud
01-24-2013, 08:51 PM
Didn't we just lose our LB coach opening a spot for Spags?

LTgiants
01-24-2013, 08:52 PM
Didn't we just lose our LB coach opening a spot for Spags?

No he turned the Eagles down. So he is still our LB coach.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-24-2013, 11:00 PM
If we got Revis and Spags, i'm calling it right now. 19-0! But we'll probably get neither :(

NY+Giants=NYG
01-25-2013, 04:32 PM
Make him a LB coach/Assistant HC. At the very worst, it puts some heat on Fewell and he won't be as tempted to go full ****** on us anymore.

And if he does, fire him midseason and promote Spags. Boom.

Don't get me all hopeful. You and I know old man Coughlin won't do that. Something someone posted about Coughlin, that his final 3 years with he Jags, he had 3 different DCs. Is that true? LOL. If so, good lord, for a HOF HC he is bad at picking coordinators! It's amazing he has 2 SBs under his belt.

Big_Pete
01-25-2013, 06:06 PM
looks like the Giants are working out Sergio Kindle and other free agents

http://www.giants101.com/2013/01/25/new-york-giants-host-private-workouts-for-ex-raven-sergio-kindle-and-other-free-agents/

Big_Pete
01-25-2013, 06:23 PM
The Panthers signed Al Holcomb as their LB coach

NY+Giants=NYG
01-25-2013, 06:52 PM
So EA helped and they signed our FO guy. And now they are poaching our staff. Last year it was the Bucs doing that.

BigBlueNorwegian
01-25-2013, 10:37 PM
So EA helped and they signed our FO guy. And now they are poaching our staff. Last year it was the Bucs doing that.

That's the problem with being successful I guess. But it sucks none the less.

Giantsfan1080
01-25-2013, 10:41 PM
That's the problem with being successful I guess. But it sucks none the less.

When's the best time to visit Norway?

BigBlueNorwegian
01-25-2013, 10:51 PM
When's the best time to visit Norway?

You thinking about coming here? Really depends where in Norway you are going, and what you want to do on vacation. I would recommend May-September if you want to come here when its not -15 degrees celcius (5 degrees to you guys) as it has been here for two weeks straight now! anything else really depends on the city/places in Norway you want to visit.

Rosebud
01-26-2013, 10:18 AM
The Panthers signed Al Holcomb as their LB coach

Guess we may have a job for spags afterall.

OSUGiants17
01-26-2013, 03:35 PM
Guess we may have a job for spags afterall.

Please JR make it happen!

Forenci
01-26-2013, 07:10 PM
Would Spags be willing to take the job even? I hope so.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-27-2013, 10:40 AM
Would Spags be willing to take the job even? I hope so.


Are there any DC spots open still? Seems like Spags got have the bad luck of getting fired too late, and not that many jobs open. So he may have to settle for a position coach job. Even Lovie Smith is out in the cold too. He may have to settle for a position coach job after being HC for so long.

bigbluedefense
01-27-2013, 11:13 AM
Lovie isn't taking a coordinator position. He's getting paid head coach money to sit at home. If he takes a coordinator position that money is void.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-27-2013, 12:54 PM
Lovie isn't taking a coordinator position. He's getting paid head coach money to sit at home. If he takes a coordinator position that money is void.

Oh ok. Well the Saints are going to a 34. Anyone who about the Eagles? Are they switching or staying the same? If they keep to a 43 system, I can see Spags going back and being their DC. If the Eagles switch systems, then I think Spags HAS to take a position coach spot or sit out a year. That would be the way we get him as a LB coach.

bigbluedefense
01-27-2013, 01:14 PM
Rumor is the Eagles want to switch to a 3-4 defense and want some guy from Georgia as their DC.

I hope Spags comes on board, but like Forenci said, it's highly unlikely. The Giants don't want to step on Fewell's toes with a move like that.

I want it to happen so bad but it won't.

Forenci
01-27-2013, 01:16 PM
Haha, it really should happen, I just don't see it going down.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Rumor is the Eagles want to switch to a 3-4 defense and want some guy from Georgia as their DC.

I hope Spags comes on board, but like Forenci said, it's highly unlikely. The Giants don't want to step on Fewell's toes with a move like that.

I want it to happen so bad but it won't.

But if he doesn't have a job and has LB coaching experience then he has to be considered. Plus Fewell's contract expires after this upcoming season. So we have to consider the best guy not worry about other coach's toes.

Rosebud
01-27-2013, 05:45 PM
it kinda lines up the way we draft players, start him off in a small role until the incumbent's contract is up and needs to be replaced then bam steps in and **** is awesome.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-27-2013, 05:56 PM
I would like the Eagles to go to a 34. Then that leaves most of the jobs closed. Spags has to either take a year off or settle and work up again. That would be our chance. I would guess Spags is waiting, but I really hope we sign him as a LB coach. Let Fewell go without actually firing him, and then just promote Spags.

LTgiants
01-27-2013, 06:22 PM
I doubt Spags wants to take the Al Holcomb's old job as defensive assistant.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-27-2013, 06:27 PM
So then he'd wait a year? It's not like his stock is high. He got fired as a HC, and was a 1 year wonder at DC. That's 2 kick in the nuts. And now most jobs are taken. So, what would be his options then? Position coach or basically sit out a year, right? Hopefully we extend him a chance to take that spot.

LTgiants
01-27-2013, 06:36 PM
So then he'd wait a year? It's not like his stock is high. He got fired as a HC, and was a 1 year wonder at DC. That's 2 kick in the nuts. And now most jobs are taken. So, what would be his options then? Position coach or basically sit out a year, right? Hopefully we extend him a chance to take that spot.

If he wants to get a position coach job I am pretty sure he can get a better one then defensive assistant even after being fired.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-27-2013, 06:46 PM
If he wants to get a position coach job I am pretty sure he can get a better one then defensive assistant even after being fired.

But what other one? LB coach he can take if we give him it. Maybe other teams who haven't filled their staff, but I'd assume our franchise would be closer to win unless he goes to like a Pats or whatever.

LTgiants
01-27-2013, 06:54 PM
But what other one? LB coach he can take if we give him it. Maybe other teams who haven't filled their staff, but I'd assume our franchise would be closer to win unless he goes to like a Pats or whatever.

Idk what teams are looking for coaches to fill their staffs. Maybe Andy Reid or some other coach he has history with has a LB coach or DB spot for him.

I have no idea but the point is all we have to offer on our staff at the moment is defensive assistant.

I really don't think he is going to want to take a job like that when I would think other teams will offer jobs a little higher up on the totem pole.

Big_Pete
01-28-2013, 03:56 AM
If we really wanted to, we could bring in Spags as just an Assistant Head Coach for a year much like Dick LeBeau with the Bills in 2003 after he got fired from the Bengals and before he returned to the Steelers.

I doubt it happens, but I would like to see Spags on the staff.

It would add a proven aggressive mind to our defensive staff who has proven success with the team.

bigbluedefense
01-28-2013, 11:21 AM
I think it's wishful thinking guys. It's not happening.

Big_Pete
01-28-2013, 04:49 PM
I think it's wishful thinking guys. It's not happening.

Pretty much, unless one of our guys like Hermann or Giunta get a deal on one of the new defences or on a college team.

Big_Pete
01-28-2013, 05:46 PM
Looking at how Reese tends to work, we are likely to use free agency to fill gaps and build the team through the draft.

I wouldn't be surprised if we signed one LB in free agency.

It will be intersting to see what happens with resignings and restructuring etc.

Free Agency starts in around six weeks or so and we need to be under the cap by then.

We really won't know our needs until we work out whats happening with the bunch of veterans who's salary/cap number is above market value or which of our free agents we are able to resign before they hit the open market.

Forenci
01-28-2013, 07:46 PM
Random thought, but how many teams run the 3-4 defense these days? I feel like now it's a vast majority, even with a couple teams reverting back to the 4-3 I feel it's still favorable.

I think it's more beneficial to be a 4-3 team because you really get some guys that only fit in the 4-3. I know BBD has brought that up in the past but as the 3-4 becomes used more and more it's becoming an even bigger advantage.

Big_Pete
01-28-2013, 08:12 PM
Random thought, but how many teams run the 3-4 defense these days? I feel like now it's a vast majority, even with a couple teams reverting back to the 4-3 I feel it's still favorable.

I think it's more beneficial to be a 4-3 team because you really get some guys that only fit in the 4-3. I know BBD has brought that up in the past but as the 3-4 becomes used more and more it's becoming an even bigger advantage.

By my reckoning there are 22 base 4-3 teams and 10 base 3-4 teams

Though quite a few of those 4-3 are hybrids using a lot of 3-4 elements. But teams tend to mix it up anyways.

Either way even fronts don't seem to be in the minority.

NE: 4-3
MIA: 4-3
BUF: 4-3
NYJ: 3-4

CIN: 4-3
CLE: 3-4?
PIT: 3-4
BAL: 4-3

IND: 3-4
TEN: 4-3
JAC: 4-3
HOU: 3-4

KC: 3-4
OAK: 4-3
DEN: 4-3
SD: 4-3

WAS: 3-4
PHI: 3-4?
DAL: 4-3?
NYG: 4-3

CHI: 4-3?
GB: 3-4
DET: 4-3
MIN: 4-3

TB: 4-3
NO: 3-4
ATL: 4-3
CAR: 4-3

STL: 4-3
SF: 3-4
SEA: 4-3
ARI - 3-4?

Giantsfan1080
01-28-2013, 08:12 PM
I think mostly every team runs a hybrid D nowadays. There might be more base 3-4 teams now but personnel wise most teams are in nickel and dime so much more.

Big_Pete
01-29-2013, 10:22 PM
Rumor is the Eagles want to switch to a 3-4 defense and want some guy from Georgia as their DC.


That explains their interest in Hermanns

Iamcanadian
01-29-2013, 11:30 PM
By my reckoning there are 22 base 4-3 teams and 10 base 3-4 teams

Though quite a few of those 4-3 are hybrids using a lot of 3-4 elements. But teams tend to mix it up anyways.

Either way even fronts don't seem to be in the minority.

NE: 4-3
MIA: 4-3
BUF: 4-3
NYJ: 3-4

CIN: 4-3
CLE: 3-4?
PIT: 3-4
BAL: 4-3

IND: 3-4
TEN: 4-3
JAC: 4-3
HOU: 3-4

KC: 3-4
OAK: 4-3
DEN: 4-3
SD: 4-3

WAS: 3-4
PHI: 3-4?
DAL: 4-3?
NYG: 4-3

CHI: 4-3?
GB: 3-4
DET: 4-3
MIN: 4-3

TB: 4-3
NO: 3-4
ATL: 4-3
CAR: 4-3

STL: 4-3
SF: 3-4
SEA: 4-3
ARI - 3-4?

What you are seeing more and more of is teams switching to a hybrid Cover 2 defense to handle the great passers in the league. I know the Giants do it a lot as does Baltimore and San Fran. It is the only defense that can slow down the Rodgers, Brady's and Payton's of this league.
They'll mix in man to man elements and blitz occasionally but you'll always see 2 deep Safeties.

Rosebud
01-29-2013, 11:58 PM
Who let the canadian into our thread? Be gone you foul demon before we have to salt you!

Big_Pete
01-31-2013, 11:57 PM
Osi has recently said that he hopes to stay with the Giants

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/31/osi-umenyiora-hopes-to-stay-with-giants-open-to-playing-for-jets/

and also mentioned that money isnít the most important thing to him and he could likely get more money elsewhere.


It is interesting that Osi has moved from not expecting to be back to hoping to return. Which is the same kind of language as what Jerry Reese and John Mara have been saying on the topic.

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 12:11 AM
Interestingly it seems that on Sunday, and in preparation for free agency, Umenyiora switched agents, once again hiring Tom Condon and Ben Dogra of CAA.

Iamcanadian
02-01-2013, 12:11 AM
Who let the canadian into our thread? Be gone you foul demon before we have to salt you!

I like the Giants and never post to make fun only to offer solid suggestions.

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 12:18 AM
saw a story on the giants salary cap from big blue view which was very interesting


What does it tell us about the 2012 New York Giants? Nothing new, really, but it confirms something we already knew -- the Giants did not get their money's worth from their defensive unit in 2012.

The Giants spent $68.8 million (57 percent) of their 2012 salary cap on defense. That is more money than every NFL team except the Denver Broncos ($70.6 million) spent on defense. Yet, the Giants finished 31st in the league defensively in yardage allowed and 12th in points allowed (21.5 points per game).

The Seattle Seahawks allowed the fewest points in the league (16.5 per game) while spending only $38.5 million on defense, third-lowest in the NFL.

The Giants spent $48.7 million on offense, which was 24th in the league in spending.


So basically we have invested extremely heavily defensively and had an extremely poor result. I don't get why the coaching staff get a pass.

Giantsfan1080
02-01-2013, 09:03 AM
Fewell is to blame.

Rosebud
02-01-2013, 09:35 AM
I like the Giants and never post to make fun only to offer solid suggestions.

http://cdn.nextround.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/salt_thesnail.gif

bigbluedefense
02-01-2013, 10:58 AM
http://cdn.nextround.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/salt_thesnail.gif

Be nice. He's not trolling. People are welcome to post in our forum as long as they're civil about it.

Forenci
02-01-2013, 11:04 AM
...yeah but it's Iamcandian...

bigbluedefense
02-01-2013, 11:10 AM
Fewell is to blame.

If I were to break it down into percentages, I assign blame like this:

50% on Fewell
25% on poor tackling
15% on the DL being old/injured/overrated
10% on overall age of the defense

I think coaching can only do so much, bc at the end of the day Fewell's terrible defense would still work if the DL performed and if our tackling wasn't awful. But those 2 things didn't happen.

And to be fair to Fewell, we were 12th in points allowed, which is ultimately the more important statistic. Yardage doesn't matter as much as points, so if we're 12th in points allowed and 1st in turnovers, which we were, it wasn't as bad as we think.

Still no excuse, Fewell had a unit that could be a top 5 unit in the league but his lack of adjustments and poor blitzing concepts ultimately hurt our team.

But let's not lose sight of the big picture here. We are a bad defense bc we are terrible at tackling, and our DL is overrated. Tuck is no longer any good, Osi is a situational pass rusher, Kiwi is average, and our DTs are average (and hurt this past year with little to no depth behind them). Couple an average year from JPP and you get a below average defense.

Now I give Fewell 50% blame bc of his lack of adjustments, my overall disagreement with his system, and bc I blame him some for our tackling issues. I think you have to blame the coaches some for tackling. Bc while I strongly feel that tackling is something that must translate from college to the pros bc it's not taught by NFL coaches, I still have to assign blame to the coaches for not emphasizing it. At least try to teach technique, or emphasize tackling in team meetings, preach it day in and day out. I don't think that's happening with Fewell in charge.

Our tackling was significantly better under Spags. I think the gang tackling concept that Cover 2 teams employ often hurts your teams tackling bc nobody takes accountability for the tackle. They all assume that someone is coming to help out so they don't have to form tackle, they can go for the big hit and hope the "help" cleans up behind them.

This concept is poor and leads to the poor tackling we've been seeing. And it's taught.

That's why I blame Fewell for that.

bigbluedefense
02-01-2013, 11:11 AM
...yeah but it's Iamcandian...

I know. But until he trolls, we treat him with respect. He didn't say anything wrong.

Forenci
02-01-2013, 11:15 AM
Very well, even though he's pretty much a certified troll.

Giantsfan1080
02-01-2013, 02:33 PM
John Mara has publically stated that Cruz is asking for too much money. I don't like where this is going.

Rosebud
02-01-2013, 02:37 PM
John Mara has publically stated that Cruz is asking for too much money. I don't like where this is going.

Victor Cruz and Ryan O'Reilly are moving to russia together. ******* sports.

BigBlueNorwegian
02-01-2013, 02:43 PM
John Mara has publically stated that Cruz is asking for too much money. I don't like where this is going.

I really don't want to play games with his contract. If we tender him, I can see a real possibility of some team giving him a huge contract we can't match. The Patriots would be my nightmare. They are probably parting ways with Welker, and Cruz would be the perfect replacement. Their first rounder is low enough that I think they would consider it as well.

We need to just sign him to a contract, unless his salary demands are incredibly high.

Giantsfan1080
02-01-2013, 02:45 PM
Reports are that he's asking for $8 to $10 million a year. That would be top 3 WR money I think.

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 03:07 PM
Looks like things with Cruz's extension may not be simple


http://www.giants101.com/2013/02/01/new-york-giants-owner-john-mara-says-team-wont-break-the-bank-for-victor-cruz/

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 03:10 PM
I really don't want to play games with his contract. If we tender him, I can see a real possibility of some team giving him a huge contract we can't match. The Patriots would be my nightmare. They are probably parting ways with Welker, and Cruz would be the perfect replacement. Their first rounder is low enough that I think they would consider it as well.

We need to just sign him to a contract, unless his salary demands are incredibly high.

I doubt we tender him, more likely in my opinion to franchise and trade him.

the problem is that there are teams like Miami and Cleveland with huge buckets of $$ and big needs at WR.

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 03:14 PM
If I were to break it down into percentages, I assign blame like this:

50% on Fewell
25% on poor tackling
15% on the DL being old/injured/overrated
10% on overall age of the defense

I think coaching can only do so much, bc at the end of the day Fewell's terrible defense would still work if the DL performed and if our tackling wasn't awful. But those 2 things didn't happen.

And to be fair to Fewell, we were 12th in points allowed, which is ultimately the more important statistic. Yardage doesn't matter as much as points, so if we're 12th in points allowed and 1st in turnovers, which we were, it wasn't as bad as we think.

Still no excuse, Fewell had a unit that could be a top 5 unit in the league but his lack of adjustments and poor blitzing concepts ultimately hurt our team.

But let's not lose sight of the big picture here. We are a bad defense bc we are terrible at tackling, and our DL is overrated. Tuck is no longer any good, Osi is a situational pass rusher, Kiwi is average, and our DTs are average (and hurt this past year with little to no depth behind them). Couple an average year from JPP and you get a below average defense.

Now I give Fewell 50% blame bc of his lack of adjustments, my overall disagreement with his system, and bc I blame him some for our tackling issues. I think you have to blame the coaches some for tackling. Bc while I strongly feel that tackling is something that must translate from college to the pros bc it's not taught by NFL coaches, I still have to assign blame to the coaches for not emphasizing it. At least try to teach technique, or emphasize tackling in team meetings, preach it day in and day out. I don't think that's happening with Fewell in charge.

Our tackling was significantly better under Spags. I think the gang tackling concept that Cover 2 teams employ often hurts your teams tackling bc nobody takes accountability for the tackle. They all assume that someone is coming to help out so they don't have to form tackle, they can go for the big hit and hope the "help" cleans up behind them.

This concept is poor and leads to the poor tackling we've been seeing. And it's taught.

That's why I blame Fewell for that.

Nice synopsis

I keep wondering if our poor tackling is acerbated by the practice limitations in the offseason

bigbluedefense
02-01-2013, 03:21 PM
I'm not surprised. I had a feeling Cruz is asking for the farm. I hope we keep him obviously, but we have to be smart with our money. In Eli I trust.

bigbluedefense
02-01-2013, 03:27 PM
Is it just me, or is a lot of our team going hollywood?

You see more Giant players at the SB this year promoting this or that than any other team. It rubs me the wrong way.

OSUGiants17
02-01-2013, 03:35 PM
Cruz wants to stay and we want him to stay. If we can't reach a deal we will franchise him and work out a deal. Trust me, if we slap the tag on him and get more time to negotiate we will be able to reach a fair deal.

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 03:41 PM
I'm not surprised. I had a feeling Cruz is asking for the farm. I hope we keep him obviously, but we have to be smart with our money. In Eli I trust.

I think if Cruz was going to budge, a deal would have been done. He wants his big payday.

We aren't going to break the bank for Cruz, nor should we.

I hope he is back, but we can move on without him.

The fact is the WR draft class despite being deep, lacks the elite talent along with some teams having a huge amount of cap room. I could easily see a team willing to give up a first round pick for Cruz

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 03:48 PM
Cruz wants to stay and we want him to stay. If we can't reach a deal we will franchise him and work out a deal. Trust me, if we slap the tag on him and get more time to negotiate we will be able to reach a fair deal.

If we can't afford a deal, what makes you think we can afford a franchise tag?

last year the franchise tag was $9.515 million, even then it is a one year stop gap. Using a franchise tag a second time, it starts ballooning.

I think Cruz is eyeing the kind of deal signed my Vincent Jackson (which had a $15,432,000 cap number)

bigbluedefense
02-01-2013, 03:50 PM
Well let's keep in mind that Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Wes Welker, and Danny Amendola are all FAs this season. So that can bring the price down for Cruz.

I didn't know Jared Cook is a FA. If we can't bring back the Unicorn I'd look at Cook.

Big_Pete
02-01-2013, 04:02 PM
potenital suitors for Cruz

Looking at it, there are a lot of teams with quite a lot of cap room that are looking to upgrade their WR group

Miami ($35.8m), Buffalo ($20.6m), New England ($18.6m), Indianapolis ($6m), Jacksonville ($22.1m), Denver ($18.5m), Kansas City ($16.1m), Tampa Bay ($31.3m), Minnesota ($16.1m), Seattle ($18.6m)

you can probably rule out KC and Jacksonville, they would have to give the top picks.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-02-2013, 09:36 AM
The Bucs pick would be nice! However, I hope we can re-sign him. Our offense doesn't have the margin for error like other systems, so keeping our skill players, is especially important.

Forenci
02-02-2013, 10:05 AM
Well let's keep in mind that Dwayne Bowe, Greg Jennings, Mike Wallace, Wes Welker, and Danny Amendola are all FAs this season. So that can bring the price down for Cruz.

I didn't know Jared Cook is a FA. If we can't bring back the Unicorn I'd look at Cook.

Problem is, Cruz is probably the best FA out of that group. So if Jennings, Wallace or whoever get paid really well Cruz is probably going to expect more.

Ugh, we can't lose Cruz. This is an awful draft for WR's too.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-02-2013, 10:24 AM
Problem is, Cruz is probably the best FA out of that group. So if Jennings, Wallace or whoever get paid really well Cruz is probably going to expect more.

Ugh, we can't lose Cruz. This is an awful draft for WR's too.

Maybe Miami makes a play for him. Cruz is half latino, and bringing him to South beach would be a great move on and off the field. I can see him being very famous there.

I would take their 1st rounder as well.

bigbluedefense
02-02-2013, 12:46 PM
10 mill a season is too rich for Cruz. I want him back bad, but we have to keep in mind what that salary does to the rest of the team. Also remember we have Eli. Eli will be Eli with or without him.

The slot WR is instrumental to our offenses success. Everything we do in this offense is predicated by the slot WR so losing Cruz would dramatically impact our offense for the short term but I have faith that Eli would make it work. It's Eli. He's done it before he'll do it again.

Giantsfan1080
02-03-2013, 10:16 AM
I actually think Nicks is slightly more important to the team as we saw this year. I think we 100% have to find a way to keep both though.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-03-2013, 10:18 AM
Yeah but the issue is he is always hurt. That's a big thing if you give him lots of money and his injuries all linger.

Giantsfan1080
02-03-2013, 10:22 AM
Agreed but as we've been saying that might bring the price down. Reese is going to have his work cut out for him this offseason and next.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-03-2013, 10:27 AM
I like Nicks a lot, but that's the one big turnoff, is that he is always hurt! He is like the Justin Tuck of our offense. Getting hurt and coming back is fine, but when those injuries linger and then some other part gets hurt because of it that's an issue. His leg and then knee was the issue this year. It's not like he has blazing speed to begin with, so he needs whatever speed he has.

Last injury prone Wr we had was Tim Carter. Nicks is still young, but when I think of him, I keep thinking he is like 26 or 27 because of all these injuries. I don't want us to invest lots of money in a guy who keeps breaking down at a young age.

Forenci
02-03-2013, 12:04 PM
Yeah, it's tough. And there is a big difference between Tim Carter and Hakeem Nicks, NYG. Mainly that Tim Carter sucked dong and Nicks is a top 10 WR (when healthy).

I'm hoping we can get Nicks relatively cheap. And when I say cheap I mean it in the sense we get him for a discount of what he SHOULD get if he didn't have all the injuries. Obviously he's not going to take a bad/low ball offer.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-03-2013, 12:20 PM
Yeah, it's tough. And there is a big difference between Tim Carter and Hakeem Nicks, NYG. Mainly that Tim Carter sucked dong and Nicks is a top 10 WR (when healthy).

I'm hoping we can get Nicks relatively cheap. And when I say cheap I mean it in the sense we get him for a discount of what he SHOULD get if he didn't have all the injuries. Obviously he's not going to take a bad/low ball offer.

Yeah, talent wise big difference. But the frustration with Carter was we couldn't see how good he could be because he was a china doll. Every time you saw a flash of talent, he broke.

Nicks is more of a tease! He has talent and we see it a lot more, but he is always hurt. In our system especially, we can't afford starters to get hurt. We can't have guys who don't know the choice and option routes playing. So any kind of injury or player turnover hurts us more in that regard.

I think we are making this public as a way to get leverage on Cruz or his agent, and also you want to make a deal and extend Nicks coming off an injury. Try to get him cheaper than you would off a pro bowl season.

Forenci
02-03-2013, 12:23 PM
Yeah, talent wise big difference. But the frustration with Carter was we couldn't see how good he could be because he was a china doll. Every time you saw a flash of talent, he broke.

Nicks is more of a tease! He has talent and we see it a lot more, but he is always hurt. In our system especially, we can't afford starters to get hurt. We can't have guys who don't know the choice and option routes playing. So any kind of injury or player turnover hurts us more in that regard.

I think we are making this public as a way to get leverage on Cruz or his agent, and also you want to make a deal and extend Nicks coming off an injury. Try to get him cheaper than you would off a pro bowl season.

I mean, every team has players that are going to get hurt. It's just the nature of the business. Plus, a lot of Nick's injuries have just been flukey type injuries. Either way, if we can get him for a bit cheaper and have him for 13-14 games at 100% plus the playoffs every year it's worth it to me. This year was just a strange year.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-03-2013, 12:37 PM
I mean, every team has players that are going to get hurt. It's just the nature of the business. Plus, a lot of Nick's injuries have just been flukey type injuries. Either way, if we can get him for a bit cheaper and have him for 13-14 games at 100% plus the playoffs every year it's worth it to me. This year was just a strange year.

Ideally, if a player got hurt and then came back 100%, then people say dislike how the player got hurt. With Nicks he was pretty much useless after the injury. A decoy basically his role was.

Yeah it's the nature of the business, but then you have players who are injury prone. Barrett green, Carlos Emmons, Tim Carter, Nicks, Justin Tuck, and KP. That's just off the top of my head.

Forenci
02-04-2013, 02:58 PM
Honestly, I know BBD will disagree probably, but this Super Bowl and post-season has proven to me how overrated the LB position really is. The 49ers have two of the best LB's in the game and their defense has been god awful the entire post-season.

The reason they've fallen off is because their secondary (outside of 1-2 players) is crap and their pass rush has fallen off the face of the earth. Aldon Smith has worn down and been a non-factor in the post-season and has very little help because their two amazing LB's can't rush the passer.

That's the bottom line. At best, what do Bowman and Willis take away? The run game and the middle of field. That's really not much at all. Especially because taking away the run game is a team effort more than anything else.

An elite CB takes away an option of the QB. Not only that but it opens up the defensive play calling because you can blitz more and allow the safety to do other things. An elite pass rushers changes how the QB throws the ball on almost every play. That's huge too.

LB's just don't come close to having that impact and this post-season, and heck, even our Super Bowl wins should prove that. How did we win our Super Bowls? Great pass rush, great secondary, below average LB's.

I suppose the point of my post is this: I don't care about linebackers. Unless this is a Von Miller type LB who can play the run, be an elite pass rusher and cover then I don't want to bother drafting one early. I don't want us to draft one in the first two rounds. The first three, ideally. Address the offensive line, address the defensive line, address the DB situation. That's how you produce an elite defense.

bigbluedefense
02-04-2013, 05:11 PM
You're simplifying it too much. That premise makes sense if you're talking about man coverage. But you run zone 50% of the time. And linebackers cover TEs. So their worth in coverage is just as valuable as the secondary. It's not like they don't cover anyone.

Forenci
02-04-2013, 06:44 PM
That's the thing. How many good receiving TE's are there compared to WR's? Certainly not nearly as many. That automatically diminishes a LB's ability to cover a TE compared to a CB's ability cover a WR. Secondly, it's not like Willis and Bowman were helping shut down TE's all year. Pitta and Dickinson made plenty of plays. I'm not putting that all on them because, as you said, they aren't in man coverage all the time nor is covering the TE always their responsibilities. I'm just making that point because you brought it up. However, they certainly didn't shut down a lot of good TE's either. Gonzalez did great, Aaron Hernandez had success against them, and so on.

They just aren't that valuable. I'm sorry. I just don't believe they are. Willis can't rush the passer for a damn. Same with Bowman. It's not like they're shutting down TE's every game and even if they are, how many great TE's are there to shut down?

My point is LB's just don't make that much different on defense and this post-season certainly showed that when the two best LB's in the league were on a defense that couldn't stop anybody. And the reason they couldn't stop anybody was directly attributed to a lack of coverage and pass rush.

I know that's not a popular notion with the heritage we Giant's fans have with great LB's but it's the truth. And I'm not taking about the Von Miller's, Aldon Smith's and Clay Matthews of the world. I'm talking about the Patrick Willis' and Navrro Bowman's of the world. A very big difference.

bigbluedefense
02-04-2013, 06:47 PM
Why not have both though? Why is it a crime to have linebackers? If a Bobby Wagner type was there in the 2nd round, you wouldn't take him?

Forenci
02-04-2013, 06:53 PM
Why not have both though? Why is it a crime to have linebackers? If a Bobby Wagner type was there in the 2nd round, you wouldn't take him?

That depends. If there is a good DE/CB/OL on the board, absolutely not. A good DE/CB always outweighs a good LB. That's my main point, really. Now, if there is a good LB on the board and the value really isn't there for a DE, CB or whatever then yes, by all means go with the BPA.

Considering we won two Super Bowls with mediocre to poor LB's doesn't really make me worry about passing on a LB though.

bigbluedefense
02-04-2013, 07:01 PM
That depends. If there is a good DE/CB/OL on the board, absolutely not. A good DE/CB always outweighs a good LB. That's my main point, really. Now, if there is a good LB on the board and the value really isn't there for a DE, CB or whatever then yes, by all means go with the BPA.

Considering we won two Super Bowls with mediocre to poor LB's doesn't really make me worry about passing on a LB though.

Times are changing though. With RGIII and Chip Kelly in the division, Russell Wilson and Kaepernick in the NFC, were gonna need linebackers to get back to the Super Bowl.

Forenci
02-04-2013, 07:23 PM
Times are changing though. With RGIII and Chip Kelly in the division, Russell Wilson and Kaepernick in the NFC, were gonna need linebackers to get back to the Super Bowl.

Meh, we're going to need pass rushers and corners even more. Four games a year can't change your entire philosophy. At the end of the day it was the traditional drop back passer that led his team to the Super Bowl win.

bigbluedefense
02-04-2013, 07:26 PM
Meh, we're going to need pass rushers and corners even more. Four games a year can't change your entire philosophy. At the end of the day it was the traditional drop back passer that led his team to the Super Bowl win.

We're a Cover 2 defense. We need linebackers more than CBs in this scheme. DL is clearly king which is why I always want pass rushers, but as long as we're a Cover 2 defense we might as well build it the right way.

Giantsfan1080
02-04-2013, 09:21 PM
Yeah but as a Cover 2 D we won the Super Bowl. We shouldn't build the D around Fewell. I'm with Alex on this one.

Forenci
02-04-2013, 11:14 PM
Yeah but as a Cover 2 D we won the Super Bowl. We shouldn't build the D around Fewell. I'm with Alex on this one.

I LOVE YOU ZAK!

But yes, I'm not willing to build for Fewell's system. It'd be silly, especially when he could easily be fired during the season if he didn't get it together. That's not a guy you go out and start finding pieces for his system. We go with Jerry's philosophy which is to get pass rushers, get DB's, and address LB's later in the draft and in free agency.

I mean, think about it. You can't have a stud player at every position in the salary cap era. Where would you rather spend less money? DB? DE? Not me. LB just isn't as important as those positions so why spend a ton of money there?

Think about how we've won Super Bowls. With Eli and pass rushers/secondary. Who have been our LB's in those years? Chase Blackburn? Kawika Mitchell? Gerris freakin' Wilkerson? An aged Antonio Pierce? Our system works. For me its clear. I'm not worried about LB. Find some JAG players and if you hit on a stud in the later rounds even better. Save the money and spend it elsewhere.

Big_Pete
02-05-2013, 01:42 PM
Yeah but as a Cover 2 D we won the Super Bowl. We shouldn't build the D around Fewell. I'm with Alex on this one.

I agree, but at the same time with how the NFL is evolving, we do need fast athletic linebackers.

I completely understand that the defensive line and secondary are higher priorities, but we do need talented LBs who aren't liabilities. I think that would make quite a difference.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 01:46 PM
It's about value. I'm not drafting a DE just to draft a DE. If the LB on the board is rated higher, we better get the LB.

scottyboy
02-05-2013, 01:58 PM
man. i just want Ziggy to fall to us. it just would be the most perfect of fits

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 02:00 PM
I want that too. Realistically it won't happen but if it does, wow. And if he's on the board and we pass, what a kick in the nuts that would be!

BigBlueNorwegian
02-05-2013, 02:10 PM
I want that too. Realistically it won't happen but if it does, wow. And if he's on the board and we pass, what a kick in the nuts that would be!

Reese wouldn't pass on a guy like Ansah without there being a very good reason for it. So if he's there, we'll take him. I'm almost positive we will.

Rosebud
02-05-2013, 02:16 PM
JPP wasn't supposed to be available even near our pick either. With the number of other DL prospects I could see a lot of the teams ahead of us that go DL looking for someone safer and more ready to make an immediate impact since a lot of them don't have the depth there that we do. Ziggy can absolutely still fall to us.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 02:20 PM
I honestly think one of those "safer" guys falls not Ansah.

Big_Pete
02-05-2013, 03:24 PM
Some positive news about Terrell Thomas

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/22545/thomas-begins-jogging-in-latest-comeback

Still a long way to go, but early signs seem positive. Let's not forget how well Adrian Peterson came back.

I don't think we should count of Thomas this year, if he can make it back it will be a very pleasant bonus.

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 03:26 PM
Some positive news about Terrell Thomas

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/22545/thomas-begins-jogging-in-latest-comeback

Still a long way to go, but early signs seem positive. Let's not forget how well Adrian Peterson came back.

I don't think we should count of Thomas this year, if he can make it back it will be a very pleasant bonus.

It's going to be a long process. When was his most recent surgery or did he even get surgery this time?

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 03:27 PM
Don't hold your breathe guys. I'm rooting for him but he's done. Even if he comes back he's a ticking time bomb.

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 03:30 PM
And just for reference, I was able to starting light jogging exactly 3 months after I tore my ACL and I'm obviously not an athlete. I was doing band work and leg press stuff within a week or two. If he had the surgery in September, he is well behind that pace. I wouldn't expect him at all in 2013.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 03:37 PM
Btw guys, I still want Randy Moss.

Giantsfan1080
02-05-2013, 04:01 PM
Well we are officially in the offseason.

Mike Garafolo ‏@MikeGarafolo
Surprising move here, I think: Giants cut LB Michael Boley today.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 04:03 PM
That's not surprising. He didn't start the final 3 games of the season. The writing was on the wall.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 04:03 PM
And he was mediocre as well. His strength was TE coverage and that took a big hit this year, and he was god awful vs the run. And he was expensive and old. This needed to be done.

Giantsfan1080
02-05-2013, 04:05 PM
Yeah I'm not really surprised at this move at all. He had a down year for sure and like you said he was barely seeing any snaps as the year went on. For his high cap hits the next 2 years this was absolutely the right move. I wonder how much cap room we saved? Looking at Spotrac possibly $10 million?

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 04:05 PM
Does that one move get us under the cap? I think it could. Roughly that seems to save 2.85 million.

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 04:07 PM
Yeah I'm not really surprised at this move at all. He had a down year for sure and like you said he was barely seeing any snaps as the year went on. For his high cap hits the next 2 years this was absolutely the right move. I wonder how much cap room we saved? Looking at Spotrac possibly $10 million?

No that can't be right. 4.25 base salary. 7 million dollar signing bonus divided by 5 equals 1.4. 4.25-1.4 is a rough number.

Giantsfan1080
02-05-2013, 04:07 PM
Does that one move get us under the cap? I think it could. Roughly that seems to save 2.85 million.

Yeah whoops I thought he had 2 years remaining on his deal but I misread. Looks it saved about $4 million though.

scottyboy
02-05-2013, 04:08 PM
woah. well, we just need Jacquian to stay healthy to be our cover guy at LB

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 04:11 PM
It also opens the door for us to potentially draft Oggetree if the staff doesn't trust JWill to stay healthy.

Big_Pete
02-05-2013, 04:11 PM
Does that one move get us under the cap? I think it could. Roughly that seems to save 2.85 million.

I think so, but we need to clear a fair bit more room to resign some of our players.

The fact we are looking at extensions for both Nicks and Cruz means we have a ways to go cap wise.

I think we are busy trying to rework some deals before free agency starts next month.

scottyboy
02-05-2013, 04:11 PM
OR WE COULD PICK KHASEEM #boom #dreamstillalive

Giantsfan1080
02-05-2013, 04:11 PM
According to Spotrac his estimated cap hit next year was $5.9 million. His base was $4.25 and the SB was $1.4. We save the base money with the release correct?

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 04:12 PM
I think so, but we need to clear a fair bit more room to resign some of our players.

The fact we are looking at extensions for both Nicks and Cruz means we have a ways to go cap wise.

I think we are busy trying to rework some deals before free agency starts next month.

I get that. But we have to be under the cap by what date? At least this buys us time to rework deals.

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 04:13 PM
According to Spotrac his estimated cap hit next year was $5.9 million. His base was $4.25 and the SB was $1.4. We save the base money with the release correct?

Yes that's correct. I did it as if he had a second year left as well.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 04:13 PM
Get ready guys. This is just the beginning. We're gonna see a lot of changes this year. It's the right call. We need new blood on the team. The championship group had a nice 5 year run but their time is up.

Giantsfan1080
02-05-2013, 04:16 PM
I think the D gets a big rework. The offense should basically be the same except for some of the OL.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2013, 04:18 PM
That's what I ideally want. Keep the O but don't overspend on the OL, keep KP, Prince, and JPP and blow up the rest of the defense where applicable.

scottyboy
02-05-2013, 04:18 PM
and I'm totally ok with all of that. Honestly, if we keep the O intact and draft all defense...I'd be perfectly fine with that.

re-sign Marty B, draft all D. Nicks-Cruz-Randle is sexy. Bradshaw-Wilson-Brown is awesome. We could use upgrades on the OL, but unless Lane Johnson falls in our laps, Beatty-Boothe-Baas-Snee-Locklear/Brewer is serviceable for one more year. Infuse all D this year. Fresh blood. New attitude. Then we can look hard at upgrading the OL

Giantsfan1080
02-05-2013, 04:20 PM
I believe KP is a goner. I hope his knee condition scares teams away but I just don't think he'll be around. I totally hope I'm wrong though.

Forenci
02-05-2013, 04:24 PM
And just for reference, I was able to starting light jogging exactly 3 months after I tore my ACL and I'm obviously not an athlete. I was doing band work and leg press stuff within a week or two. If he had the surgery in September, he is well behind that pace. I wouldn't expect him at all in 2013.

No offense, but with any injury, especially ACL injuries, you can't really compare one case to another.

Jughead10
02-05-2013, 04:26 PM
No offense, but with any injury, especially ACL injuries, you can't really compare one case to another.

I know. Which was kind of my point. You can't compare when they happen. But the fact that he's only starting to jog now makes me think this is going to be significantly longer than a one year recovery.

Forenci
02-05-2013, 04:27 PM
I know. Which was kind of my point. You can't compare when they happen. But the fact that he's only starting to job now makes me think this is longer than a one year recovery.

It might be, I'm not really expecting much from but it's impossible to say. Some guys take 1-2 years to fully to recover, others are freaks of nature like Adrian Peterson and can come back sooner. Just too hard to tell.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-05-2013, 04:49 PM
Boley is cut.

Big_Pete
02-05-2013, 07:58 PM
I am curious to see people's thoughts on this...

IF NYG are unable to sign Cruz to an extension and place the top RFA tender on him, do you think a team would part with a first round pick to sign Cruz?

There are a few playoff teams with decent cap room and are likely looking to upgrade their WRs.

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Wanna make predictions on the next guy cut? My guess is canty which sucks because i like him

Jughead10
02-06-2013, 09:06 AM
I don't know about next, but Webster will either be cut or cut and then immediately signed again to a new deal. There is no way we can go into next year with his cap situation the way it is.

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 09:08 AM
Probably Webster. :(

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 09:09 AM
I think webster, canty and Diehl are all guys on the chopping block. Id love to have them back, but I doubt it at this point

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 09:19 AM
I'm worried Bradshaw is going to get cut also possibly. Hopefully we do cut some of these guys and they re-sign. I'm a bit attached to the guys who won the 2 SB's with us.

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 09:23 AM
I also think we should sign Ellerbe in FA if he doesn't re-sign in Baltimore. Williams and Ellerbe on the outside would be a good duo.

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 09:27 AM
I'd be most upset if we didn't bring back Webster out of all the guys mentioned

Jughead10
02-06-2013, 09:27 AM
I also think we should sign Ellerbe in FA if he doesn't re-sign in Baltimore. Williams and Ellerbe on the outside would be a good duo.

With Ray and Reed likely leaving, they will re-sign Ellerbe. He also just isn't a Giant. I could never see us signing him.

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 09:38 AM
I don't know much about his attitude or personality but I thought he'd be a good fit. How is he not a Giant typle player?

Rosebud
02-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Lets not forget that Boley and Antonio Pierce weren't exactly prototypical giants either in Atlanta and Washington.

Jughead10
02-06-2013, 09:40 AM
Lets not forget that Boley and Antonio Pierce weren't exactly prototypical giants either in Atlanta and Washington.

Totally disagree about that. Especially with Pierce. He was always known as an extremely cerebral player.

Rosebud
02-06-2013, 09:43 AM
I thought you were referring to their mouthiness and tendency to carry that douchiness off the field with them, not their instincts.

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 09:56 AM
rumor has it that Bradshaw expects to be cut. hmmm

Malaka
02-06-2013, 11:35 AM
Believe it or not I like these potential cuts and changes. It's going to make us a younger team. It's refreshing actually, and exactly what we need to do. JR is not loyal to a fault like Coughlin and he knows that in order to be competitive we have to hit the reset button. I feel like we hit our peak with this group of players. Do I recommend roster overhaul? No, but some of the excess fat has to go even if they are productive like Webster and Bradshaw, even Cruz if he wants top 3 WR money.

I can wash my hands and be done with Bradshaw, Boley, Webster, and Canty even if they were cogs to this team they easily replaced. So many cheaper options are available even Glenn Dorsey would probably be a lot cheaper than Canty and give us the same production, if Rivers re-signs he gives us exactly what Boley did (BIG IF, if he stays healthy), and Bradshaw can already be replaced in house with Brown and Wilson and possibly a late round pick/UDFA. The only guy I would make an effort to restructure or give a new contract to is Webster, although Amukamara looks like he's going to have to step up and be the top corner Webster can still be a solid #2 and I don't think he would be easily replaced unless we go corner in round 1 (I think Hosley is going to be strictly a slot guy.)

On another note Cruz wanting top 3 WR money is laughable... he is a good player but god damn is he over rated. Nicks is so much better and more important than Cruz, its a shame he has a hard time staying healthy. If he demands that money I let him go and I take Robert Woods round 2, rich man's Steve Smith (Our Steve Smith).

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 11:43 AM
I have a bit of a feeling that we end up losing Cruz in RFA and end up getting some team's #1.

Malaka
02-06-2013, 11:44 AM
I have a bit of a feeling that we end up losing Cruz in RFA and end up getting some team's #1.

I'll take it.

I love Cruz but the man is so overrated.

If I am Philbin I sign Greg Jennings and trade for Cruz. Talk about setting Tannehill up for success haha.

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 11:46 AM
I don't think he's overrated for our system and it would hurt to lose him. Reese will have to find that balance between fair deal for him and us. That's a lot of production to make up for.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 11:57 AM
I'm fine win these cuts. It's time to clean house. Lets gut the roster. It got old and stale, it's time for some youth to step up and show what they can do. We have a lot of money tied to mediocre production and its time to start fresh.

If all these cuts help us re-sign Nicks and Cruz I'm all for it. Webster, Canty, Bradshaw, Diehl, Boley, Osi. I wish we threw Tuck in there too but I know that's not happening. Wouldn't mind Snee or Boothe gone too. Its time to rebuild.

Malaka
02-06-2013, 11:58 AM
I don't think he's overrated for our system and it would hurt to lose him. Reese will have to find that balance between fair deal for him and us. That's a lot of production to make up for.

I agree he is excellent for our system and it would definitely hurt to lose him. (Who would we replace him with? Randle? LOL. I do like Woods in round 2 if Cruz is gone.)

I would love to bring him back for a fair deal. However, I laugh whenever I hear him demanding top 3 receiver money. He is barely top 10. He is not worth that cap hit although WR automatically becomes one of our biggest needs if he goes. If we can get a first round pick for him and not have way overspend to keep him, I am happy; he is no Megatron/Moss/Green... he is replaceable.

Giantsfan1080
02-06-2013, 12:12 PM
I'm fine win these cuts. It's time to clean house. Lets gut the roster. It got old and stale, it's time for some youth to step up and show what they can do. We have a lot of money tied to mediocre production and its time to start fresh.

If all these cuts help us re-sign Nicks and Cruz I'm all for it. Webster, Canty, Bradshaw, Diehl, Boley, Osi. I wish we threw Tuck in there too but I know that's not happening. Wouldn't mind Snee or Boothe gone too. Its time to rebuild.

Boothe is a FA. I'd like to bring him back for OL depth. Not sure how he's viewed outside NY but he always does a solid job for us.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 12:17 PM
Boothe is a FA. I'd like to bring him back for OL depth. Not sure how he's viewed outside NY but he always does a solid job for us.

I like him as a backup like you said. The question is how much will he cost? For the right price I like him as a backup. But he's a player that if he were to start I'd actively look to replace him. We need a road grader next to Beatty.

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 12:35 PM
with all our holes on D, we can't go around letting potentially cheap starters, at guard of all spots, go walking or look for their upgrades.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 12:50 PM
with all our holes on D, we can't go around letting potentially cheap starters, at guard of all spots, go walking or look for their upgrades.

We also can't sign bad contracts just bc either. That only leads to more problems. Look at it this way, whether you sign him back or not, you're still hoping to upgrade from him either way. So is it really a big deal if he walks?

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 12:56 PM
We also can't sign bad contracts just bc either. That only leads to more problems. Look at it this way, whether you sign him back or not, you're still hoping to upgrade from him either way. So is it really a big deal if he walks?

I said cheap option, I'm not saying we throw 4+ mil at Kevin freaking Boothe. If he stays cheap for a year or 2 as a stop gap and lets us focus on replacing our ancient and porous D, isn't that worth it? Also saves us from using $$$ on an outside guy or a draft pick

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 12:59 PM
I said cheap option, I'm not saying we throw 4+ mil at Kevin freaking Boothe. If he stays cheap for a year or 2 as a stop gap and lets us focus on replacing our ancient and porous D, isn't that worth it? Also saves us from using $$$ on an outside guy or a draft pick

It is. Which is why I want him back if he's cheap. I'd still try to replace him if I could, even if we bring him back though.

Like if we're up to pick, and OG is significantly higher grade then any defensive player when we pick then I'm taking the OG even if we sign Boothe. He doesn't stop me from looking to upgrade the position is what I'm saying.

Big_Pete
02-06-2013, 01:20 PM
I also think we should sign Ellerbe in FA if he doesn't re-sign in Baltimore. Williams and Ellerbe on the outside would be a good duo.

I'd rather get Erin Henderson

Big_Pete
02-06-2013, 01:55 PM
Believe it or not I like these potential cuts and changes. It's going to make us a younger team. It's refreshing actually, and exactly what we need to do. JR is not loyal to a fault like Coughlin and he knows that in order to be competitive we have to hit the reset button. I feel like we hit our peak with this group of players. Do I recommend roster overhaul? No, but some of the excess fat has to go even if they are productive like Webster and Bradshaw, even Cruz if he wants top 3 WR money.

I can wash my hands and be done with Bradshaw, Boley, Webster, and Canty even if they were cogs to this team they easily replaced. So many cheaper options are available even Glenn Dorsey would probably be a lot cheaper than Canty and give us the same production, if Rivers re-signs he gives us exactly what Boley did (BIG IF, if he stays healthy), and Bradshaw can already be replaced in house with Brown and Wilson and possibly a late round pick/UDFA. The only guy I would make an effort to restructure or give a new contract to is Webster, although Amukamara looks like he's going to have to step up and be the top corner Webster can still be a solid #2 and I don't think he would be easily replaced unless we go corner in round 1 (I think Hosley is going to be strictly a slot guy.)

On another note Cruz wanting top 3 WR money is laughable... he is a good player but god damn is he over rated. Nicks is so much better and more important than Cruz, its a shame he has a hard time staying healthy. If he demands that money I let him go and I take Robert Woods round 2, rich man's Steve Smith (Our Steve Smith).

I am thinking along the same lines

I would be ok if we cut Diehl, Webster, Canty and Bradshaw

These guys all have value and can contribute but our issues are big contracts for ageing players.

As for Cruz wanting elite money, that's not going to happen. I think we will end up putting the top RFA tender on Cruz, do either he plays for us relatively cheaply (possibly after a holdout) or we get a first round pick.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 02:21 PM
Its difficult to gauge Cruz's worth bc his skillet is different from your traditional WR who plays on the outside. He's the best slot WR in the game hands down. Maybe Percy is better but he can't stay healthy. And Cruz can play on the outside too. And we also have to remember that contracts are relative. It's gonna look worse than it really is bc he's on the market and other guys aren't. That's how free agency works.

But at the same time, he's gotta bring his price down. You have a chance to play in NY where the endorsements are high and you get to play with Eli while setting up your post football career in the biggest market in the country while staying close to home. Why wouldn't you take a little less than what say KC can offer you to play here? It makes a lot more sense to stay and play here for like 1 mill less a season vs somewhere else. You'll make that money back and some.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 02:52 PM
Bradshaw and Canty cut. I like what were doing. It's the right move. I would like Canty back on a cheaper deal if possible but I'm ok with this move regardless.

Big_Pete
02-06-2013, 02:57 PM
I like this too, we are shedding some big contracts and getting younger and healthier.

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 02:57 PM
We need to draft someone awesome this year. My only current giants jersey is Phillips and who knows if he's gonna stay or not

Forenci
02-06-2013, 03:01 PM
I'll be interested if we re-sign Bradshaw or not. If not I think it really shows we have a lot of faith in Wilson. Bradshaw cut, Brown coming of injury, Scott pretty meh. To me it says a lot.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-06-2013, 03:04 PM
So the list is now...

Boley
Bradshaw
Canty


I have to admit the Bradshaw one stings. However, this is the business side. I will always have fond memories of him as a player. He was an injury prone player who was still productive for us. He was a warrior who played hurt with both ankles. That's pretty amazing!

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 03:04 PM
This also makes DT a legitimate round 1 possibility. Not thrilled with the idea of it but its entirely possible.

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 03:06 PM
This also makes DT a legitimate round 1 possibility. Not thrilled with the idea of it but its entirely possible.

I think it has been for a while. If we don't address it in the first 2 rounds (without signing a guy or 2) then I'll be a little more than peeved.

Kawan Short in the 2nd would be dreamy at this point

Forenci
02-06-2013, 03:06 PM
DT is so tough. For me a DT MUST have a great motor. That's the only way I would consider drafting them in round 1. Would much rather prefer to address it in the second round though.

OSUGiants17
02-06-2013, 03:08 PM
Wow, we cut Boley, Bradshaw and Canty today. If Brown is anything like he was before the injury I think him and Wilson splitting carries with a rookie for depth would be great. I love Bradshaw, but he just isn't the same and he was just taking away carries from Brown and Wilson. I wish him the best. As for Canty, he was injured too often and never lived up to his contract, if we can get him back cheap I'm all for it, but if not it's whatever we need to start re-building in the trenches anyways. Boley is the only one that shocked me, I think that we will definitely be looking for a new WILL in FA or the draft since I don't trust Paysinger at all.

I need to start scouting Sheldon Richardson more, because I like what I have seen so far, and he now looks like he could be a big possibility at 19 if he is there

NY+Giants=NYG
02-06-2013, 03:08 PM
Oh man, I hope it's not a DT. I mean BPA and what not, but we have to go OL. And why is David D. still on the team? I'd get rid of him before of Bradshaw.

Big_Pete
02-06-2013, 03:08 PM
Its difficult to gauge Cruz's worth bc his skillet is different from your traditional WR who plays on the outside. He's the best slot WR in the game hands down. Maybe Percy is better but he can't stay healthy. And Cruz can play on the outside too. And we also have to remember that contracts are relative. It's gonna look worse than it really is bc he's on the market and other guys aren't. That's how free agency works.

But at the same time, he's gotta bring his price down. You have a chance to play in NY where the endorsements are high and you get to play with Eli while setting up your post football career in the biggest market in the country while staying close to home. Why wouldn't you take a little less than what say KC can offer you to play here? It makes a lot more sense to stay and play here for like 1 mill less a season vs somewhere else. You'll make that money back and some.


I want Cruz back if at all possible, but we can't break the bank to sign him.

I was thinking that something akin to Stevie Johnson's deal that he signed with the Bills last year is the ball park where a deal could be done:

For reference Johnson's contract from Rotoworld 3/5/2012: Signed a five-year, $36.25 million contract. The deal contains $18.05 million guaranteed,

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 03:08 PM
Marvin Austin, it's time to put your big boy pants on.

Big_Pete
02-06-2013, 03:09 PM
Oh man, I hope it's not a DT. I mean BPA and what not, but we have to go OL. And why is David D. still on the team? I'd get rid of him before of Bradshaw.

I don't think we are done with cuts yet and expect we are also trying to rework deals.

There is plenty of DT talent in the draft this year, it doesn't have to be round 1

scottyboy
02-06-2013, 03:10 PM
you know what the bradshaw cut means...

WE COULD DRAFT JAWAN JAMISON :D

bigbluedefense
02-06-2013, 03:11 PM
Sheldon Richardson is starting to grow on me. I wasn't a fan at first but he's growing on me. If we can get that type of pass rushing DT in the 2nd that would be great.

Big_Pete
02-06-2013, 03:14 PM
I think that we will definitely be looking for a new WILL in FA or the draft since I don't trust Paysinger at all.


Jaquain Williams is a WLB, with Paysinger backing him up we are solid at WLB.

OSUGiants17
02-06-2013, 03:17 PM
Sheldon Richardson is starting to grow on me. I wasn't a fan at first but he's growing on me. If we can get that type of pass rushing DT in the 2nd that would be great.

No way he is there in the 2nd. He is exactly the type of guy you would like. Watch him vs Baylor a year ago when they had RG3:
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Kid is constantly hustles to the ball and doesn't stop until he hears a whistle

And this year vs Alabama probably gives you the best look at how he will fair against NFL OL:
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I think with his motor and the right coaching he will be a stud

OSUGiants17
02-06-2013, 03:18 PM
Jaquain Williams is a WLB, with Paysinger backing him up we are solid at WLB.

I could have sworn Williams was a SAM, but you could be right. If so then we could use a new SAM since I'd like to move Kiwi to DE a lot more this year.