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View Full Version : Peterson to Broncos Now Less Likely


ChiFan24
02-22-2011, 05:37 PM
Bailey discussion goes in the NFL section, I'm aware. This is for discussion about the #2 pick now that Peterson makes far less sense for Denver. Also I want to see the Broncos fans here argue with non-Broncos fans, because that's always funny.

Who will it be? Bowers/Fairley? Still Peterson? Trade? Wild card?

Zello
02-22-2011, 05:39 PM
John Fox loves athletic 4-3 DEs. I predict it will be Bowers.

RaiderNation
02-22-2011, 05:39 PM
Wrong place

keylime_5
02-22-2011, 05:40 PM
I think they were gonna take Bowers/Fairley/Dareus anyways. Elite defensive linemen win championships, not elite defensive backs as much.

WMD
02-22-2011, 05:57 PM
I never bought Peterson at #2 overall anyways. DB's just don't go that high.

Matthew Jones
02-22-2011, 06:02 PM
Wrong place

I think this topic is relevant both here and in the NFL forum because this signing could have a huge impact on who goes #2 overall. It's certainly possible that the Broncos go with Peterson regardless, but I'm thinking Bowers looks more likely at this point assuming the Panthers go with Fairley #1.

A Perfect Score
02-22-2011, 06:06 PM
I don't see why the Broncos would draft Bowers, they've got Ayers at LE and Doom at RE. Ayers obviously being unproven but still very talented and in development.

diabsoule
02-22-2011, 06:19 PM
I don't see why the Broncos would draft Bowers, they've got Ayers at LE and Doom at RE. Ayers obviously being unproven but still very talented and in development.

Ayers was pathetic last year. I don't see him developing into much of anything outside a serviceable at best backup. If Bowers or Fairley are available I would have to think they would be the pick although Peterson makes sense still since they really don't have anything to talk about as far as CBs outside of Bailey

oldman9er
02-22-2011, 06:28 PM
Well, Ayers was playing in an ill-suited position last year at 3-4 OLB. He should be a very good 4-3 LE, so if I am Denver, I'm drafting Fairley or Dareus.

ChiFan24
02-22-2011, 06:47 PM
Wrong place

Thanks man.

nepg
02-23-2011, 12:33 AM
With or without Champ, they still need corners... I think this makes Peterson less of a dire need, but he's certainly still in the running for #2. I also like Ayers and Doom at DE, which is why I haven't mocked Bowers to Denver.

LonghornsLegend
02-23-2011, 12:47 AM
I think Fairley is a no brainer if Newton goes #1, especially with them going to a 4-3. Bowers is a great pick, but I think I'd be more comfortable with Ayers at one End and Fairley inside, then Bowers & Fairley at one End and no impact DT's.

RaiderNation
02-23-2011, 12:50 AM
Thanks man.

No problem, next time think for a second and put this in the NFL section, since its NFL related and not NFL draft related :)

But hey I will contribute since thats what your looking fior. I have had Denver taking a DL all along. A stud DL will make a much more of a impact than PP, even though PP is my #1 rated prospect in this draft. Bowers or Fairley should go to Denver

bigfreak314
02-23-2011, 01:01 AM
Let's not forget the fact that Fairley is athletic enough to move around all over the field. He can play LDE on obvious running downs and raise hell @ the 3 tech. If Carolina passes on him then Denver needs to sprint to the podium for this guy.

ChiFan24
02-23-2011, 01:22 AM
No problem, next time think for a second and put this in the NFL section, since its NFL related and not NFL draft related :)

But hey I will contribute since thats what your looking fior. I have had Denver taking a DL all along. A stud DL will make a much more of a impact than PP, even though PP is my #1 rated prospect in this draft. Bowers or Fairley should go to Denver

So....you did read the first sentence of the thread after all?

Clarkw267
02-23-2011, 02:00 AM
No problem, next time think for a second and put this in the NFL section, since its NFL related and not NFL draft related :)

But hey I will contribute since thats what your looking fior. I have had Denver taking a DL all along. A stud DL will make a much more of a impact than PP, even though PP is my #1 rated prospect in this draft. Bowers or Fairley should go to Denver

That's some pretty flawed logic right there. If you don't think Peterson will make as much of an impact as Bowers or Fairley, then how is he your #1 prospect?

Caulibflower
02-23-2011, 04:14 AM
Obviously they have serious needs on defense, and they drafted Demaryius Thomas in the first last year... but, particularly in light of Thomas's Achilles injury... suppose they draft AJ Green? With as many needs as they have, might they not simply take the best player available? With Brandon Lloyd, Eddie Royal and a presumably healthy Demaryius Thomas, they'd have a great receiving corps for Tim Tebow to throw to. With that marquee pick, you have to think they also want a fairly safe player, and AJ Green is definitely one of the surer things in this draft, as much as anyone can be called a sure thing. And I know I'm going to probably get nothing but comments about how they NEEEED to upgrade their defense, and that's fair. Not to mention history hasn't been kind to franchises who take WRs in the first year after year. (*cough* Lions *cough*) But a single player doesn't solve a defense's problems, since offenses will simply gameplan to avoid that defender; if the rest of the defense is still poor, this really just means that the plays will be happening on other parts of the field. You have to look for elite talents on offense, so that they can beat anyone on a defense. When building a defense, you need a depth of quality players. When you're talking about a single premium pick, you have to think about who is going to have more of an impact, as an individual, on your teams success.

But then again, there's how much money you're sinking into a position. I dunno. Just having a thought here. I'm a guy who thinks Tebow is going to be a Pro Bowler, and if he had BeyBey and Green lining up on both sides of the field for the next decade, with Eddie Royal in the slot, I think Denver would have an offense that would be incredibly hard to deal with. Again, because I believe defenses need to be built over time, through deep, quality drafting, my inclination is to take elite offensive players with the really high picks. Green fits that bill.

bigbluedefense
02-23-2011, 07:26 AM
If Patrick Peterson blows up the combine and shows an ability to sink his hips, I think he should go #1 overall.

Fairley has serious character and work ethic concerns, I like Quinn at DE so while I like Bowers, I don't think he's worthy of that high of a pick, and Newton screams bust to me.

Peterson has the production and athleticism of a shut down CB, which as Revis has shown us, is a priceless commodity. Plus he offers versatility, with an option to transition to Safety if he's not thriving at CB. Plus he's a stud STer, which improves your team in 2 of the 3 phases.

If he lights it up at the combine, I'd give him strong consideration at #1 overall.

P-L
02-23-2011, 08:51 AM
I never bought Peterson at #2 overall anyways. DB's just don't go that high.
With the rookie cap coming, teams probably aren't going to worry much about positional value.

Matthew Jones
02-23-2011, 08:59 AM
seriously? why even bother posting when it's clear you don't have any idea what you're talking about?



that would be the single worst draft pick in the history of the nfl. worse than BMW.

*shakes head*

and why the **** would resigning a 33-year old cornerback preclude the broncos from taking a player at a position that is just as weak as their DL?

Robert Ayers IS a bum. When you have 1.5 sacks in 26 career games as a first-round pass rusher, you're a disappointment. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to turn it around but his production doesn't exactly leap out at you when you're considering which positions a new regime is going to need to address.

CaneBang
02-23-2011, 09:14 AM
It's gonna be Bowers if he isn't taken #1 by the Panthers. John Fox drafted another ACC Freak DE in his first year at Carolina and look what happened. Regardless of whether or not Bailey was signed to another four years, a lineman was going to be the pick.

And yes, Ayers is a complete bum. He's been a complete non-factor for the team and most likely still will be whether he has his hand on the ground or still off of it.

Roddoliver
02-23-2011, 09:22 AM
For the DL, I think Marcell Dareus is the safest pick. He did not have amazing stats, in part because he played in a 3-4 scheme, but he was a very important piece of the Alabama defense for 2 seasons. I agree with Mike Mayock that Fairley might have a little extra upside, but Dareus is safer. And I think he's stronger against the run. He will be more productive when highlighted in a 4-3.

Bowers suffered a partially torn meniscus, which might lead to repeating injuries down the road. We are in February and Bowers still is not 100% to run at the Combine. The Broncos drafted an injured player in the 1st round last year, and the guy can't stay healthy. Maybe they will focus on healthy players this time. Plus, Bowers is the classic 1-year wonder, desperate for draft money.

Fairley has issues as well. He dominated the SEC in 2010, but was pretty much invisible before that. And just the fact that he is JaMarcus Russell's friend scares me, to be honest. I see some immaturity in him, on and off the field. The guy would get a lot of money 2nd overall, and I wonder if he would have motivation to work hard to be the best he can.

Peterson is a big corner that might play safety in the NFL, but I believe the Broncos plan to use Champ Bailey as a FS in the near future. And the team just spent a lot of money to keep Bailey, so I doubt another mountain of millions of dollars goes to the secondary when the team has such a poor front seven.

Robert Quinn is a nice athlete, but he did not play football in 2010. And I don't know if he is good enough against the run. If the Broncos put Dumervil and Quinn together on the field, the run defense might look really weak. I believe the team will try to use Dumervil in different ways, such as a rush LB on passing downs, with Ayers and someone else at DE, but Dumervil will probably play a lot of DE.

jth1331
02-23-2011, 09:43 AM
This is the current defense for the Broncos:
DE: Elvis Dumervil, Jason Hunter
DE: Robert Ayers, David Veikune
DT: Jamal Williams, Marcus Thomas
DT: Justin Bannan
WLB: DJ Williams, Wesley Woodyard
MLB: Joe Mays
SLB: Mario Haggan
CB: Champ Bailey, Syd'Quan Thompson
CB: Andre Goodman, Perrish Cox
S: Brian Dawkins, David Bruton
S: Renaldo Hill, Darcel McBath

My gosh, it makes me sick to my stomach looking at that roster. Pathetic.

Broncos need everything on defense pretty much. To be honest, we need a very good DT. However, I'm afraid of Fairley's character/attitude and his work ethic. Dareus to me is a better option due to that, but it appears he has a lower ceiling.
Bowers would be a nice option but we don't know what we have in Ayers still. Ayers could be that run stuffing DE the Broncos need who helps generate a pass rush from time to time. If Dumervil is his pass rusher self and gets 12+ sacks, Ayers just needs to stuff the run and get 5 sacks.
A penetrating force up the middle is a necessity though.
Then add in the LB's are crap, the safeties are old and slow with the young guys not playing much and the CB's are pretty weak depth wise.

So I wouldn't be surprised Peterson get picked, but I think it is a must to take Fairley/Dareus with pick 2.

gutman54
02-23-2011, 10:29 AM
Umm..RaiderNation..how isn't this draft related? I think it's very draft related, it has to do with who a team will pick because of a signing. This post has more to do with the fact that they more than likely won't be drafting PP based off of their keeping Bailey, rather than the signing of Bailey itself. If this was only about the Bailey signing, and not the subsequent impact it has on how the Broncos draft, then I could you saying it isn't deserving of a spot in this section.

So maybe you need to think a second before you say something.

Halsey
02-23-2011, 11:04 AM
Why would AJ Green be such a bad pick for the Broncos? If he turns into the star WR that he looks like he can be, could the Broncos not use him? I know they have Brandon Lloyd and some other talented WRs, but AJ Green looks like he'll be a star for years. I'm not sure the Broncos are so set at WR that they should just brush off drafting Green. Yes, they need defense, but you shouldn't just blow off an elite talent. They could take Green and still add good players to their defense.

LonghornsLegend
02-23-2011, 11:19 AM
Why would AJ Green be such a bad pick for the Broncos? If he turns into the star WR that he looks like he can be, could the Broncos not use him? I know they have Brandon Lloyd and some other talented WRs, but AJ Green looks like he'll be a star for years. I'm not sure the Broncos are so set at WR that they should just brush off drafting Green. Yes, they need defense, but you shouldn't just blow off an elite talent. They could take Green and still add good players to their defense.


Because AJ Green wouldn't be the only good player right there. There defense is terrible, passing yardage is not the problem what so ever, they took a WR in round 1 last year and have a pro bowler at the other WR. What about that says they need to take another WR over an elite DT or an elite DE? It's pick #2, not #102, AJ Green isn't gonna be the only good player left.

Halsey
02-23-2011, 11:37 AM
Because AJ Green wouldn't be the only good player right there. There defense is terrible, passing yardage is not the problem what so ever, they took a WR in round 1 last year and have a pro bowler at the other WR. What about that says they need to take another WR over an elite DT or an elite DE? It's pick #2, not #102, AJ Green isn't gonna be the only good player left.

The NFL Draft isn't all about immediate needs. You don't blow off a guy who could be an elite WR for a decade just because you have Brandon Lloyd, Demaryius Thomas, and needs on defense. That's short sighted. Green would likely start for the Broncos from game 1 and could also be a long term centerpiece for the franchise. Almost 30 years old, 1 year wonder Brandon Lloyd and injury prone, raw as sushi Demaryius Thomas aren't good reasons to pass on Green.

LonghornsLegend
02-23-2011, 11:45 AM
The NFL Draft isn't all about immediate needs. You don't blow off a guy who could be an elite WR for a decade just because you have Brandon Lloyd, Demaryius Thomas, and needs on defense. That's short sighted. Green would likely start for the Broncos from game 1 and could also be a long term centerpiece for the franchise. Almost 30 years old, 1 year wonder Brandon Lloyd and injury prone, raw as sushi Demaryius Thomas aren't good reasons to pass on Green.



I could also easily say: You don't blow off a guy who could be an elite DT for a decade just because you want to pass for 370 yards instead of 310. There is nothing short sighted about that, what is short sighted is acting like AJ Green is the only elite player left when you have the 2nd pick in the draft. Bowers would start from Day 1. Peterson would start from Day 1, same for Fairley or anyone else they picked, saying that Green would does nothing to make the pick make anymore sense.



I don't know if you noticed the Broncos at all, but probably the 1 position where they are half decent is at WR, and that's even with Lloyd being a 1 year wonder and Thomas always hurt. Don't forget they do have Eric Decker going into his 2nd season also. Did you not see that defense?




This is the current defense for the Broncos:
DE: Elvis Dumervil, Jason Hunter
DE: Robert Ayers, David Veikune
DT: Jamal Williams, Marcus Thomas
DT: Justin Bannan
WLB: DJ Williams, Wesley Woodyard
MLB: Joe Mays
SLB: Mario Haggan
CB: Champ Bailey, Syd'Quan Thompson
CB: Andre Goodman, Perrish Cox
S: Brian Dawkins, David Bruton
S: Renaldo Hill, Darcel McBath




You mean to tell me that if Newton goes #1 overall, that there are no elite players left on the defensive side of the ball? You keep trying to tell me how good AJ Green will be and where he will play like everybody available on the defensive side of the ball is gonna be an average player at best, just because they have "needs" on that side doesn't mean those players aren't as good.



This is a pretty easy concept to grasp, I don't know why your making it so hard.

A Perfect Score
02-23-2011, 11:48 AM
They just spent a first rounder on WR though. Im a huge AJ Green fan, but thats absolutely the wrong pick in that scenario. They've actually got a fairly deep receiving core and they've spent recent first round picks on Moreno, Tebow and Thomas. You owe it to yourself to see how Thomas develops as a #1 WR before investing another pick there and their defense is so devoid of talent that they can't pass on adding a playmaker on that side of the ball. They need a Fairley or a Peterson much more then they need AJ Green.

Shane P. Hallam
02-23-2011, 11:50 AM
Broncos brass basically shot down the possibility of taking a WR, or any offensive position, today.

Halsey
02-23-2011, 11:50 AM
Obviously individual opinion of players comes into account. If you think a certain defensive player is just a better prospect, of course the Broncos should take said defensive player. However, if you think Green is the best player in the Draft, as many do, immediate needs on defense are not a reason to blow him off as a terrible pick. The Broncos are at least 2 years away from competing. They should not be focused soley on immediate needs. Their WR situation isn't all the great long term. Lloyd will be well into his 30s by the time they are ready to compete.

RaiderNation
02-23-2011, 01:01 PM
That's some pretty flawed logic right there. If you don't think Peterson will make as much of an impact as Bowers or Fairley, then how is he your #1 prospect?

Its simple. DL make more of a impact than DB's. PP is the best prospect in this draft sure, but he wont really make as much of a impact in the NFL if he doesnt have help from the DL. Id say QBs throw more ints from being pressured, rather than the DB making a play on the ball.

RaiderNation
02-23-2011, 01:12 PM
yeah, just ask the jets. revis made basically NO impact for them.

apparently, ITT, people who don't know what they're talking about post a lot, making everyone dumber in the process.

Where did I say DB's make no impact? All I am saying is Id rather have a impact DL than a DB.

Babylon
02-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Obviously individual opinion of players comes into account. If you think a certain defensive player is just a better prospect, of course the Broncos should take said defensive player. However, if you think Green is the best player in the Draft, as many do, immediate needs on defense are not a reason to blow him off as a terrible pick. The Broncos are at least 2 years away from competing. They should not be focused soley on immediate needs. Their WR situation isn't all the great long term. Lloyd will be well into his 30s by the time they are ready to compete.

Not sure that Green would carry a higher grade than guys like Bowers, Quinn or Fairley but yeah if there were a huge discrepancy in talent there i'd probably take him too, that probably isnt the case though.

gpngc
02-23-2011, 01:21 PM
"DL make more of a impact than DB's."

i'm calling bull**** and provided a counter example.

Dude...

DL is much more important than DB. Which is why DL are ALWAYS drafted higher.

Think of it this way. If you have a guy like Revis (who is a once-in-a-generation player) that eliminates ONE option on the opposing offense. A dominant pass-rusher eliminates the entire play by getting to the QB. Even if Revis does his job 100% of the time, the #2 and #3 option can still beat you. If the dominant DL does his job 50% of the time he makes more of an impact.

LonghornsLegend
02-23-2011, 01:22 PM
Where did I say DB's make no impact? All I am saying is Id rather have a impact DL than a DB.

I think you'd take the better player, period. You can argue all day over which one is more important, but if you had a choice between Revis and Ngata you'd have a pretty tough decision to make and an impact player either way. It's not like the Jets have all these pass rushers who can get after the QB making his job easier.


If you are bad at all levels of the defense, take the guy you have rated higher or think will be better. I wouldn't care where I got him from or what position, especially when the Broncos D needs help all over.

Halsey
02-23-2011, 02:02 PM
because adding a wr to this team adds nothing. period. end of story,

Adding AJ Green to the Broncos would add nothing? Ok, Exaggerationasaurus Rex.

Drafting busts is what hurt the Lions, not WRs. Go back and look at Millen's drafts. He was adding the wrong players at all sorts of positions, including defense.

Chris
02-23-2011, 03:10 PM
(A) With Champ re-signed, it is less likely we are going to go with Peterson.

(B) Although Ayers hasn't put up awesome sack numbers, he has a lot of pressures and hurries, and has been very valuable in the running game. If you aren't a Denver fan, my guess is you don't watch enough Broncos games to make that call. Fortunately, I do -- and I feel Ayers has a much better shot at producing as a 4-3 LDE.

(C) Brian Xanders, the Broncos GM, was on multiple radio shows emphasizing they are looking for a player who can make negative plays in the running game or get after the passer. I'm guessing Quinn is going to be off their boards for being suspended this season. @ #2 -- the Broncos can't afford a risk, though all prospects are.

It is probably Bowers or Fairley, but I'm really hoping for Dareus. An interior threat at DT will open up things for Dumervil and Ayers.

jtice2003
02-23-2011, 09:54 PM
I think they were gonna take Bowers/Fairley/Dareus anyways. Elite defensive linemen win championships, not elite defensive backs as much.

Charles Woodson is a great player, he won a championship this year. and if you look at it, the pack had at least 5 picks in the playoffs that were CRUTIAL. not even to mention the pick 6 by collins.

name me one DL that made this big an impact this postseaon? and terrell suggs is really a 4-3 hybrid but, ill give you that one..

BeerBaron
02-23-2011, 09:58 PM
Charles Woodson is a great player, he won a championship this year. and if you look at it, the pack had at least 5 picks in the playoffs that were CRUTIAL. not even to mention the pick 6 by collins.

name me one DL that made this big an impact this postseaon? and terrell suggs is really a 4-3 hybrid but, ill give you that one..

Sticking with the Packers theme....how about BJ Raji? Raji requires multiple blockers to slow down, that takes blockers away from Clay Matthews, which means he is free to be more disruptive, and him being disruptive means QBs have less time to throw and are more likely to throw those interceptions of which you speak.

Defensive lineman and pass rushers will always trump secondary players.

Timbathia
02-23-2011, 11:08 PM
The last time the Broncos defense was relevant (2006) was coincidentally the last time Al Wilson was at MLB. On another unrelated coincidence, the Broncos run def and LB core has been spectacularly bad since 2006. Say what you want about the importance of a pass rush or the secondary, but if you def is a treadmill to all running games then who gives ****.

Doom got 17 sacks 2 years ago and we were still ****, even with Champ in the secondary.

What am I trying to say - who knows, other than none of PP, Fairley, Bowers, Quinn or Dareus will solve the problem.

CashmoneyDrew
02-23-2011, 11:29 PM
I probably see two Broncos games a season so I'm hardly an expert but if I'm them I'm taking Fairley. Unlike some of you I think Robert Ayers would be a very solid LE in a 4-3 that could be allowed to play to his strengths if Fairley and Dumerville are taking the pass-rush pressure off of him.

TitanHope
02-24-2011, 01:16 AM
No problem, next time think for a second and put this in the NFL section, since its NFL related and not NFL draft related :)

You're being facetious, right? Please say you are...

Adding AJ Green to the Broncos would add nothing? Ok, Exaggerationasaurus Rex.

Drafting busts is what hurt the Lions, not WRs. Go back and look at Millen's drafts. He was adding the wrong players at all sorts of positions, including defense.

You're justifying ignoring the defense and taking Green because "Well, they could use a great WR." Naw-freaking-duh. They could use a dozen other players besides the ones listed in this thread.

AJ Green isn't a bad pick (for anyone really), but he's the wrong pick for the Broncos. Kyle Orton threw for a ton of yards last year, and Brandon Lloyd led the NFL in receiving yards. They are losing because of defense. Adding Green isn't going to translate into wins. And while a single defensive player isn't going to transform a bad unit into a great one on his own, it is a step in the right direction.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 01:26 AM
You're being facetious, right? Please say you are...

You're justifying ignoring the defense and taking Green because "Well, they could use a great WR." Naw-freaking-duh. They could use a dozen other players besides the ones listed in this thread.

AJ Green isn't a bad pick (for anyone really), but he's the wrong pick for the Broncos. Kyle Orton threw for a ton of yards last year, and Brandon Lloyd led the NFL in receiving yards. They are losing because of defense. Adding Green isn't going to translate into wins. And while a single defensive player isn't going to transform a bad unit into a great one on his own, it is a step in the right direction.

I'm not saying ignore the defense. NFL teams have more than just one Draft pick to address needs. The Broncos could take Green and still address the defense. Again, the Broncos are not going to be competing for a Super Bowl in 2011. They need to be thinking long term. If Green plays up to his potential, I can promise you the Broncos won't regret picking him when they look back years from now.

Saints-Tigers
02-24-2011, 02:02 AM
I don't think AJ Green is such a good prospect that he's way above the rest of these guys, relative to position anyway.

I feel like every year the top WR prospect gets overrated in comparison to other prospects, for some reason.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 02:07 AM
I don't know about better, but Green looks safer to me. Or at least as safe as any defensive player. Other than minor durability concerns, I don't see any warning signs with Green. No defensive player looks like quite as safe a bet for stardom.

Saints-Tigers
02-24-2011, 02:09 AM
I don't think Green is even as special as Peterson as a prospect, maybe more safe, but meh.

Timbathia
02-24-2011, 02:20 AM
I don't know about better, but Green looks safer to me. Or at least as safe as any defensive player. Other than minor durability concerns, I don't see any warning signs with Green. No defensive player looks like quite as safe a bet for stardom.

Fox has been quoted as saying he likes his worst running play more than his best pass play. Just saying - dont hold your breath for the Broncos to draft him.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 02:36 AM
Fox has been quoted as saying he likes his worst running play more than his best pass play. Just saying - dont hold your breath for the Broncos to draft him.

The Panthers first 3 picks last year were QB, WR, WR. Passing is not optional in the NFL.

Timbathia
02-24-2011, 05:47 AM
The Panthers first 3 picks last year were QB, WR, WR. Passing is not optional in the NFL.

because they had none. Broncos have plenty of QBs and WRs, and not much else.

no bare feet
02-24-2011, 07:41 AM
i mean, why wouldn't the broncos take cam newton? they can play him at quarterback WITH tebow!

you missed your calling

Halsey
02-24-2011, 10:33 AM
right, so denver should address a young receiving corps (that's right, if you were capable of doing more than looking at box scores, you might've noticed. if you'd pulled your head out

Ok, done reading there. I'm here to talk football, not read childish nonsense.

ChiFan24
02-24-2011, 10:39 AM
Also I want to see the Broncos fans here argue with non-Broncos fans, because that's always funny.


Nailed it.

Sniper
02-24-2011, 10:48 AM
Ok, done reading there. I'm here to talk football, not read childish nonsense.

You seem to be frequently "done reading" right before people accurately rip apart your posts. How convenient.

TitanHope
02-24-2011, 10:49 AM
Damn ADD meds... Sorry this is so flippin' long errybody! Skip to the bolded part if you're a lazy bastard. :)

I'm not saying ignore the defense. NFL teams have more than just one Draft pick to address needs. The Broncos could take Green and still address the defense. Again, the Broncos are not going to be competing for a Super Bowl in 2011. They need to be thinking long term. If Green plays up to his potential, I can promise you the Broncos won't regret picking him when they look back years from now.

When I say "ignore the defense," I mean ignore it in the 1st RD. Even though you're not ignoring it the entire draft, ignoring defense in the 1st is ignoring defense. In other news, the first rule of tautology is the first rule of tautology. :D

Although I know you're playing Devil's Advocate because you're an A.J. Green and UGA fan, I will still pose this question: Instead of taking Green 1st and then using the other picks on defense, why not address the defense 1st and then take a WR in the 2nd or 3rd RD? Is that better or worse, in your opinion?

That actually makes a whole lot more sense than taking a WR 1st because you want him for the future and then waiting to fill the present needs until later on. You're arguing for taking A.J. Green now because when the time comes when they're ready to compete in 2 years (Could very well be sooner, considering the turnarounds that we saw last year in Kansas City and Tampa Bay), having an awesome WR will be a great benefit. But why not take a WR who falls because he needs developing, and use those 2 years that the team isn't a contender to develop him (or just continue developing Demaryius Thomas over that time, and by the time they're contenders, Bey-Bey will be a go-to WR)? That's how you handle this hypothetical. If you're preparing for future needs, you use that 3rd or 4th RD pick for that and use the time inbetween to develop the player. Not pass over elite players at dire needs (which for Denver, defense is a dire need) so you can take an elite player at a much lesser need because hey, the team is gonna lose anyway and you might as well get a guy who may come in handy if and when the team is good enough to compete (which won't happen until they fix the defense, so you're just postponing the time the team is good, which is the entire reason they chose Green to begin with!).

Also, any pick they make is thinking long term: Disregarding need for value is thinking long term, taking a player of value at a position of need is thinking long term, and reaching for a player of lesser value is thinking long term. It's an innate concept that rookies are long term plans, not short term (which doesn't mean that immediate impact is exclusive - the 1st RD/immediate impact players just start their plan sooner). And while it's true that in 2-3 years WR may be a need and selecting Green now would nip that in the bud, there are immediate needs in the present that have to be addressed in order for the team to be successful in the future.

And no matter who they pick, that single player won't dictate whether the team competes for the Super Bowl or not (although, if they nail FA, their other picks, and some of the young players improve, who knows?). Ndamukong Suh was an animal last year, yet the Lions weren't Super Bowl contenders. Yet, he still filled an immediate need, and he is now a helluva building block for future success. So since this outcome is set, I don't see how their status as a contender is relevant to the pick.

And yes, if Green lives up to his potential, the Broncos won't regret picking him. But, this is true for every team in the NFL. If you draft a guy and he becomes a perennial Pro Bowler/All-Pro, then you can't be disappointed with that. But if Patrick Peterson fulfills his potential, then the Broncos won't regret that either and Peterson will help the defense. If DaQuan Bowers or Robert Quinn fulfill their potential, then the Broncos have an unblockable pass-rusher which is huge due to the passing trend in the NFL. Same thing goes for Nick Fairley and Marcel Dareus. All of these defensive guys have vast potential too, except they fill a present and future need.

This was really long, but I think my main point is this: Assuming the player selected lives up to his potential, the defensive player will be a bulding block for future success and A.J. Green is a cherry on top whose value occurs when the building has finished. The Broncos need building blocks, not cherries. They can't afford that luxury.

bigbluedefense
02-24-2011, 11:06 AM
If I'm Denver, I go

1. Peterson
2. Nevis
3. Quan/Carter/best available linebacker

I think that quickly shores up a decent amount on that defense, and it's all pieces that Fox loves. That looks like a John Fox draft.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 11:10 AM
A star WR is not just a cherry. There's a reason NFL teams are paying guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Roddy White 10 mill a year.

The most important thing for the Broncos is that they get a really good player with the #2 pick. It's great if they address defense, but a bad team has no business just blowing off an elite talent. The Broncos needed defense when they took Robert Ayers. That doesn't mean he's been a good pick. I've never heard of a team picking a star player and saying "darn, we screwed up when we drafted so and so". If you think Green will be as good as signs point to him being, he'd be a good pick for anyone. Green is the total package. Unless he gets hurt, he's practically a lock for stardom.

I think Broncos fans will feel silly if they look back a few years from now and realize they thought the WRs they have justify ignoring AJ Green. How many teams have ever in the history of the NFL regretted drafting an elite WR?

bigbluedefense
02-24-2011, 11:14 AM
How many teams have regretted drafting a shut down CB?

In fact, if you had to choose, I think most teams choose a shut down CB over an elite WR bc it's so much harder to find.

No one is saying the Broncos should take crap on defense over Green. But the notion that Green is by far the best pick for them is not correct either. If he's BPA I wouldn't knock the pick at all.

But Peterson is every bit the prospect that Green is, while playing a position that is just as important if not more important.

Sniper
02-24-2011, 11:19 AM
A star WR is not just a cherry. There's a reason NFL teams are paying guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Roddy White 10 mill a year.

That's odd. Neither the Cardinals or the Falcons have won a Super Bowl recently. Green Bay got their best receiver late in the second round. The Saints got their best in the seventh round. The Steelers got Santonio Holmes late in the first round, but he's not an elite WR, wasn't getting paid like one and got traded a year later. The Giants got the biggest catch of their Super Bowl run from David Tyree and didn't have an elite WR. The team they beat had the WR who scored the most TDs in one season, but the Patriots lost because of their OL play.

You don't build elite teams through wide receivers. Elite WRs are absolutely cherries.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm just saying that Green wouldn't be a bad pick for the Broncos. Not that they should select him ahead of this player or that. If they think Peterson is as good or better a prospect, more power to them. I just don't believe the Broncos have any business ignoring an elite talent at any position. Their WR corps is not that good and Demaryius Thomas is a huge question mark.

Sniper
02-24-2011, 11:39 AM
Their WR corps is not that good and Demaryius Thomas is a huge question mark.

Super duper! The point remains that you don't build a team through wide receivers. They're picking second overall. Call me crazy, but that usually tells me that there are other spots in which they need help, and nearly all of them are more important than wide receivers.

EDIT: While I certainly don't expect him to do quite as well next year, Brandon Lloyd had 1,448 yards, 18.8 per and 11 TD. Hardly a bad year.

SenorGato
02-24-2011, 12:18 PM
Patrick Peterson is the best player in this draft...passing on him is a bad idea for anyone who is lucky enough to have a chance to pick him.

TitanHope
02-24-2011, 12:41 PM
A star WR is not just a cherry.

It is if you're a bad team with waaaaay bigger needs elsewhere. It's absolutely a luxury.

The most important thing for the Broncos is that they get a really good player with the #2 pick. It's great if they address defense, but a bad team has no business just blowing off an elite talent.

I agree that they need to hit on this pick, and I agree that a bad team shouldn't automatically disregard an elite talent just because it's not a need. But the difference is that A.J. Green won't be the only elite talent available. There are 7 defensive players in the Top 10 of Scott's big board. He has Green #1, but the next 7 players are defenders. There is an abundance of elite defensive talent, and while Green may be BPA (at least according to Scott, which many would disagree with), it won't be by much. This is why I said that Green isn't a bad pick - he's just the wrong pick. You have an efficient QB, a WR on roster who led the NFL in receiving, just used a 1st RD pick the year before on a WR, and your defense is terrible. I think it's pretty clear that the right move is choosing the elite defensive player over the elite WR who is a little bit higher in terms of BPA value.

Let me say again that I don't think taking A.J. Green is a bad pick, since you're getting a great player and anytime you manage that, it has to be a success. But considering the context, I just think he is the wrong pick. You can be a successful pick and still be the wrong one in comparison to other options. I'd rather have a player who provides a building block on defense over the star WR, since improving the defense will lead to more team success better than a stud WR who is coming to an already productive offense.

The Broncos needed defense when they took Robert Ayers. That doesn't mean he's been a good pick. I've never heard of a team picking a star player and saying "darn, we screwed up when we drafted so and so". If you think Green will be as good as signs point to him being, he'd be a good pick for anyone. Green is the total package. Unless he gets hurt, he's practically a lock for stardom.

Ayers is a weird example. He came out as a 4-3 LE, and even had talk of playing 3-4 DE. Then the Broncos drafted him with the intention of playing him at 3-4 OLB, which didn't suit him that well. Now that he's moving to his natural position as a 4-3 DE this season, we'll finally know if we can count him as a good or bad pick. Whether he was the right or wrong pick, I'm not sure. They were going through a scheme change, and needed help at a lot of places, like you said. Ayers could play 4-3 DE, spot duty at 4-3 UT, 5-Tech, and 3-4 OLB. That versatility is great for a team changing schemes, and Ayers was the highest rated player available who could do that for them (possibly only player available left in the entire draft). But this is when hindsight comes in and makes us all experts. They passed on Clay Matthews for Ayers, which probably makes Denver fans cringe. Matthews was seen as a very versatile player in his own right, but he was more LB while Ayers was more DL. They ended up playing the same position though, and if the Broncos planned on using Ayers as a 3-4 OLB and only ever as a 3-4 OLB, then hindsight says they made a bad pick. Nevertheless, Ayers could prove the doubters wrong now that he's at his home position, so if he's successful as a 4-3 DE, is he still a bad pick? Is he a bad pick no matter what since they chose him over Clay Matthews, or does that not matter now that they're playing different positions?

And if you throw out Ayers as an example, I'll throw out Brandon Marshall to gauge WR impact and value. Denver had an all-world WR. Denver never made the Playoffs with that all-world WR - and the supporting cast on offense was a lot better back then. But the defense is what held them back from being a contender. What's the use of having Cutler, Marshall, Royal, a good OL (back then, anyway), and a scheme that allows for productive running game if you're not a contender? Acquiring A.J. Green is inconsequential unless they fix the defense.

And again, you're acting as if Green is the only star player available and are already putting him in Canton. There are star defensive players as well. And no, A.J. Green is not a lock for stardom. I believe he's gonna be very good, but a lock for stardom? No such thing.

I think Broncos fans will feel silly if they look back a few years from now and realize they thought the WRs they have justify ignoring AJ Green. How many teams have ever in the history of the NFL regretted drafting an elite WR?

To answer your bolded question with a question: How many teams who went deep into the playoffs had elite WR's? You said they'd want Green when they were a contender, so lets see if he's really all that important. Green Bay's best WR was Greg Jennings, who is very good and fits that offense great, but he's not in my elite tier. Pittsburgh had Mike Wallace, and he's not in my elite tier. Chicago had Johnny Knox; definitely not elite. The New York Jets probably had the most talented in the duo of Braylon Edwards and Santonio Holmes, but are they "elite?" Too inconsistent - Edwards didn't even hit 1,000-yards and Holmes missed 4 games, but when his averages are extrapolated over another 4 games, he comes up short of a grand too.

Something they all have in common? Their good defenses and good QB's.

The only case in which Broncos fans look back and regret passing on Green is if the player they pick busts and doesn't improve the defense. But none of that matters one flying **** because in order to win, they need a better defense. A.J. Green does not improve the defense, so cares if they have the best WR in the NFL if they're losing? And if the player they pick doesn't have as much personal success as A.J. Green does, but still improves the team by filling holes that hold them back and allows for them to build on him, then I think Denver fans will feel just fine as long as the team is winning.


I think we can stop on this. Both of us think A.J. Green will be a stud. You think that as long as you draft a stud, a pick can't or shouldn't be looked at as a mistake, wrong choice, or bad choice. I think that as long as you draft a stud, you can feel good about the pick, but I don't think it's that black and white. I think if there's a different player who may not be better individually but still improves the team more, then you can see the picking of the stud as a wrong decision.

the natural
02-24-2011, 12:51 PM
Still think that Denver might draft Blaine Gabbert and trade Tebow. I don't get the impression that Elway and the new regime are sold on Tebow. With so many teams looking for QB help, there has to be one out there that would give them a good return for Tebow. He is certainly ahead of any of the draft prospects in terms of his development, and not much older. His contract is managable. Then they can develop Gabbert behind Orton or Quinn.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 01:16 PM
An elite WR is not a luxury or a 'cherry'. Did you see how losing Plaxico hurt the Giants? Was Michael Irvin a luxury? Was it a luxury for the Ram's 'Greatest Show' teams to have Bruce and Holt? I could keep going.

Sniper
02-24-2011, 01:39 PM
An elite WR is not a luxury or a 'cherry'. Did you see how losing Plaxico hurt the Giants? Was Michael Irvin a luxury? Was it a luxury for the Ram's 'Greatest Show' teams to have Bruce and Holt? I could keep going.

They were absolutely luxuries and cherries. Plaxico was replaced within a season by a motley of middle-round picks and the Giants' passing attack is significantly more prolific. Not to mention the fact that Plaxico himself was one his second team because- you guessed it- he was a luxury that the Steelers couldn't afford, and he wasn't even an elite WR with an elite price tag.

Irvin was absolutely a luxury. The Cowboys had great depth at nearly every position and could have won Super Bowls without him. They had the best OL (Emmitt Smith's career is a testimony to this) and a strong defense. The great WR was gravy.

The Greatest Show teams still had great QB play, a great RB, a very good OL and a decent defense. The WRs were still luxuries.

If successful teams were built on picking wide receivers highly every year, the Lions would have multiple Super Bowls from the Millen decade. You do not build around WRs. You build around a franchise QB, a rock-solid OL and a good defense.

LonghornsLegend
02-24-2011, 01:39 PM
I agree that they need to hit on this pick, and I agree that a bad team shouldn't automatically disregard an elite talent just because it's not a need. But the difference is that A.J. Green won't be the only elite talent available.

He's missed this point countless times so I just gave up trying to explain it anymore. Obviously, AJ Green is a lock for Canton without much thought, and there aren't any elite players left with the 2nd pick in the draft except him. Obviously.


Because he saw Denver play so much last year, that he can obviously tell it was passing yardage that was a problem for them.

bigbluedefense
02-24-2011, 01:45 PM
To be fair, McDaniels runs a choice route offense, and under that offense, some WRs thrive and some are duds, so now that they're scraping that system, we don't know how well their passing attack will be.

Lloyd revived his career bc he was able to thrive under this system. Adjusting his routes to the defense was what made him a weapon down the field. I can see Decker being more suited for this system as well.

Royal sucked in this system bc he can't read a defense. I expect him to bounce back with a more traditional offense.

So who's to say that Lloyd will be the same? He was a dud in traditional offenses before, he thrived in a choice route offense now we're back to a simpler route tree, so who knows.

Just playing devil's advocate for a second.

Timbathia
02-24-2011, 02:13 PM
Still think that Denver might draft Blaine Gabbert and trade Tebow. I don't get the impression that Elway and the new regime are sold on Tebow. With so many teams looking for QB help, there has to be one out there that would give them a good return for Tebow. He is certainly ahead of any of the draft prospects in terms of his development, and not much older. His contract is managable. Then they can develop Gabbert behind Orton or Quinn.

I understand that you are probably just writing the most stupid thing that comes into your head to try and get reactions from people - but you do realise that Bowlen fired McDaniels because the fans were revolting, and that not taking a defense player with the first pick will lose Elway and Fox any goodwill they currently have from the fans - hence leading very quickly to their departure due to the empty stadiums.

And BTW - Tebow throwing right-handed is still a more effective QB than Gabbert.

ThePudge
02-24-2011, 04:17 PM
This thread may contain some of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen on this site. njx's posts have been gold for the most part. I'm not sure why anyone could/would continue to argue past "WR is arguably the strongest and deepest positions on the team." This one is so obvious and so dumb that I thought not even the biggest homers could miss it, I'll cut off my left nut and get a tattoo on the remaining one if the Broncos take an offensive player at 2nd Overall. I think there is a 0% chance it happens. They're desperate on that side of the ball and it couldn't be more obvious, even to an 11 year old who only sees highlights on SportsCenter. There is simply NO point in even suggesting ANY offensive name. It will not happen.

#2 will come down to Nick Fairley and Patrick Peterson in my opinion. My more recent mocks have Fairley as the pick.

A Perfect Score
02-24-2011, 04:35 PM
This thread may contain some of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen on this site. njx's posts have been gold for the most part. I'm not sure why anyone could/would continue to argue past "WR is arguably the strongest and deepest positions on the team." This one is so obvious and so dumb that I thought not even the biggest homers could miss it, I'll cut off my left nut and get a tattoo on the remaining one if the Broncos take an offensive player at 2nd Overall. I think there is a 0% chance it happens. They're desperate on that side of the ball and it couldn't be more obvious, even to an 11 year old who only sees highlights on SportsCenter. There is simply NO point in even suggesting ANY offensive name. It will not happen.

#2 will come down to Nick Fairley and Patrick Peterson in my opinion. My more recent mocks have Fairley as the pick.

Thats assuming Fairley will be there. I think he's got a very legitimate shot at #1 overall, especially if Charles Johnson is brought back and they trust Everette Brown to develop into something. Moreover, Denver do have investments at both end positions in Ayers and Dumervil, so Id be shocked to see them go with someone like Bowers there. Denver are an interesting team to try and peg...stuff like this is what makes the draft so entertaining.

Halsey
02-24-2011, 04:58 PM
"Oh boo hoo you're dumb because I don't agree with you! Waaaahhhh!"

Again, Denver's needs on defense doesn't make an elite prospect a bad pick. That's like saying Jarvis Moss and Robert Ayers were great picks because Denver needed defense. Denver is going to want the #2 pick in the Draft to be an important part of their team for a decade. You're just short sighted if all you take into consideration are immediate needs. Denver is not going to look back and say "boy, we really blew it when we Drafted AJ Green."

And don't try to throw the homer flag. That doesn't hold water when Green is viewed by many, including Scott Wright, as the #1 prospect in the Draft.

A Perfect Score
02-24-2011, 05:02 PM
The worst part about them drafting Robert Ayers was trying to play him out of place. It wasn't a bad pick value wise and he isn't a terrible player, he's just been used poorly since being selected.

And you were dumb long before you ever disagreed with any of us, that I'm sure of.

Caulibflower
02-24-2011, 06:02 PM
None of the young receivers Denver has were viewed in the same light as AJ Green coming out. Decker is thought of as a complimentary player, Eddie Royal as a slot receiver, DT has some serious medical concerns right now, and Brandon Lloyd has a reputation as a head case and is 30. Jabar Gafney is not a player that a team is going to keep in favor of an elite prospect.

And the point remains that you need a multitude of quality picks to make a good defense. Denver having a poor defense is not a reason to believe that picking on offensive player is a wasted pick; they have the rest of the draft to address need. AJ Green is a special player. How many people are saying that the Vikings shouldn't have picked Adrian Peterson when Chester Taylor had just rushed for over 1200 yards the season before? Are we going to judge draft picks based on the performance of their teams the seasons before they were picked, or after? Bottom line is, the Broncos have a bunch of needs, and yes, their defense sucks. I'm not even saying that they should draft AJ Green, but to say that they should pass on one elite player because they're awful on the other side of the ball is an extremely short-sighted perspective. From how bad they are now, they need more than one good draft to become the team they want to be, and when that happens, you can be sure that they'll be glad to have picked up some elite talent if they did when they had the chance.

Chris
02-24-2011, 06:16 PM
Denver is going to want the #2 pick in the Draft to be an important part of their team for a decade.

Actually, 15 years. Didn't you read hear the Xanders interview?

You're just short sighted if all you take into consideration are immediate needs.

Royal, Decker, Lloyd (Pro-Bowler) and Gaffney are more than fine right now, and it's possible Thomas is ready for the season. How many WR's were effectively utilized in Fox's offense? Offensively, we'll need a pass receiving tight end more than anything. There is nothing short-sighted about the Denver fan's discussion in this thread.

Denver is not going to look back and say "boy, we really blew it when we Drafted AJ Green."

They aren't going to look back and think that at all. It is clear as day they want a player on the DL with their first selection.

And don't try to throw the homer flag. That doesn't hold water when Green is viewed by many, including Scott Wright, as the #1 prospect in the Draft.

Which is great, and if Denver didn't have the worst defense in the league, I'd probably be interested in taking an offensive weapon like A.J. Green. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury in selecting him. When you have one of the worst run defenses in the NFL, your best line player coming off IR and a scheme switch, you are going to try and get players on the D who can step in right away and compete.

The need is defense, not offense.

Please shut up with your nonsense.

Caulibflower
02-24-2011, 06:21 PM
is aj green the only elite talent who will be available at #2? no? then nothing else here matters.

And what is the game of football about? Moving the football past a certain point. And the football can only be in one place at a time. This is the difference:

A defensive player has to get to the football himself. The offense gives the football to AJ Green. A defensive player is disruptive, but the offensive player does what it takes to actually win...help move the football past that white line.

Also, it almost seems like people are forgetting that as bad as the Broncos were on defense last year, they were missing their best defensive player. I expect Dumervil to have 10 sacks again this year, Perrish Cox will be in his second year (although, does he have some legal stuff going on? I may not be very well informed on this one), and Robert Ayers has only played two years; the people calling him a bust after only two years might've been calling Darren MacFadden a bust last year. (could be a bad analogy, but he did improve last year, and he's still young) But the Broncos went from being a decent defense in 2009 (7th in yards allowed, 12th in points allowed) to being really bad last year.

Defense is definitely, definitely, definitely, Denver's main priority in this year's draft, but I don't think it would necessarily be a bad idea to take the BPA at the very top of the draft, and then fill needs from there on out.

Chris
02-24-2011, 06:24 PM
Denver is taking the BPA at a position of need for their team. As of right now, DL trumps WR. Sorry, you can continue to post paragraphs trying to sound smart until you are blue in the face, but it would be a waste of time.

Saints-Tigers
02-24-2011, 06:31 PM
AJ Green isn't as good as Larry Fitzgerald as a prospect.

Caulibflower
02-24-2011, 06:42 PM
Denver is taking the BPA at a position of need for their team. As of right now, DL trumps WR. Sorry, you can continue to post paragraphs trying to sound smart until you are blue in the face, but it would be a waste of time.

Since when has the existence of forums been to have everyone agree on everything? If you want to keep making statements without giving reasons (paragraphs) for your opinions, feel free. I'm sure you'll convince a lot of people that way.

A Perfect Score
02-24-2011, 06:56 PM
see, and i don't see the difference between AJ Green and Peterson as being some vast gulf. sure, if there was AJ Green, whoever the panthers take, and than a *massive* drop off to the next level of talent, i could see an argument for going BPA nomatterwhat. but i don't think that's even close to the case this year.

You can easily make the argument that Peterson, Fairley, Bowers, Quinn and even Dareus are all on the same level as prospects as AJ Green.

Chris
02-24-2011, 07:03 PM
Since when has the existence of forums been to have everyone agree on everything? If you want to keep making statements without giving reasons (paragraphs) for your opinions, feel free. I'm sure you'll convince a lot of people that way.

I've supported the direction Denver is likely to head in this draft based off quotes from our GM, I could even point to what Fox said today in Indianapolis. I'm not here to convince anyone either. Those who are ignorant will remain ignorant.

Green isn't an option for the Broncos.

Sorry.

Caulibflower
02-24-2011, 07:05 PM
see, and i don't see the difference between AJ Green and Peterson as being some vast gulf. sure, if there was AJ Green, whoever the panthers take, and then a *massive* drop off to the next level of talent, i could see an argument for going BPA nomatterwhat. but i don't think that's even close to the case this year.

Fair enough. Point taken.

the natural
02-24-2011, 07:07 PM
I understand that you are probably just writing the most stupid thing that comes into your head to try and get reactions from people - but you do realise that Bowlen fired McDaniels because the fans were revolting, and that not taking a defense player with the first pick will lose Elway and Fox any goodwill they currently have from the fans - hence leading very quickly to their departure due to the empty stadiums.

And BTW - Tebow throwing right-handed is still a more effective QB than Gabbert.

No, because the strongest reactions come from the stupidest people as a rule. I'm not a masochist.

McDaniels was fired when he was (and replaced by the no name position coach of the worst running game in the league) because Elway and Bowlen decided to try to tank for Andrew Luck (and perhaps Jim Harbaugh along with him). That didn't work out for all sorts of reasons, but it didn't change their opinion that Tim Tebow is not the long term answer at QB. Or Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn for that matter. All three of the those players are in play once trading resumes in the league. I doubt that Denver would go for Newton, who is basically a dumbed down version of Tebow, but I could see them being interested in Gabbert who resembles the young John Elway in a lot of ways.

The Denver defense was among the best in the league in 2009, under Mike Nolan. With basically the same group of players, and some high priced additions, it was the worst in 2010 under Wink Martindale. I think the problem, and I believe that John Fox may think the problem was primarily in execution and coaching.

Timbathia
02-24-2011, 07:43 PM
No, because the strongest reactions come from the stupidest people as a rule. I'm not a masochist.

McDaniels was fired when he was (and replaced by the no name position coach of the worst running game in the league) because Elway and Bowlen decided to try to tank for Andrew Luck (and perhaps Jim Harbaugh along with him). That didn't work out for all sorts of reasons, but it didn't change their opinion that Tim Tebow is not the long term answer at QB. Or Kyle Orton or Brady Quinn for that matter. All three of the those players are in play once trading resumes in the league. I doubt that Denver would go for Newton, who is basically a dumbed down version of Tebow, but I could see them being interested in Gabbert who resembles the young John Elway in a lot of ways.

The Denver defense was among the best in the league in 2009, under Mike Nolan. With basically the same group of players, and some high priced additions, it was the worst in 2010 under Wink Martindale. I think the problem, and I believe that John Fox may think the problem was primarily in execution and coaching.

If you think McDaniels was fired primarily to tank the rest of the season you are the stupidest person in these forums.

You dont know what Elway and Bowlen think of Tebow or Orton, no matter how many times in different threads you say you do. Your entire basis for this line of debate is your own guess.

Elway was an elite prospect - Gabbert is an average one.

Denver's defense was not one of the best in 2009. There early season success was a mixture of surprising teams with their very schematically limited 5-2, and Doom being a wrecking ball. The wheels fell off as soon as teams figured out where to run the ball.

the natural
02-24-2011, 08:02 PM
If you think McDaniels was fired primarily to tank the rest of the season you are the stupidest person in these forums.

You dont know what Elway and Bowlen think of Tebow or Orton, no matter how many times in different threads you say you do. Your entire basis for this line of debate is your own guess.

Elway was an elite prospect - Gabbert is an average one.

Denver's defense was not one of the best in 2009. There early season success was a mixture of surprising teams with their very schematically limited 5-2, and Doom being a wrecking ball. The wheels fell off as soon as teams figured out where to run the ball.Bronco defense finished 7th from the top in 2009. That qualifies as one of the best to me. A lot better than 32nd overall after spending most of their free agent money on the defensive side of the ball. Not to mention using top draft picks on Ayers, Smith, McBath, Broughton.

Timbathia
02-24-2011, 08:33 PM
Bronco defense finished 7th from the top in 2009. That qualifies as one of the best to me. A lot better than 32nd overall after spending most of their free agent money on the defensive side of the ball. Not to mention using top draft picks on Ayers, Smith, McBath, Broughton.

In the first 5 games of 2009 the Broncos def gave up just over 8 points per game.

In the subsequent 11 games, they gave up over 25 points per game.

Taking the last 11 games points average, the Broncos would have been the 26th best defense in the league.

The good start was due to a number of reasons, including Doom and a surprisingly effective 5-2. Teams figured the Broncos out fairly quickly and they were awful after that. Like I said, 2009 was not a good year for the Broncos defense, it was just an incredibly skewed data set from a very, very, good/fortuitous start to the season. But then if you watched any of the games or understood the team you were debating you would already have known this.

the natural
02-24-2011, 10:47 PM
O.K., I'll play that game, take the first half of the season and they were #1 overall. Two can skew.

Timbathia
02-24-2011, 11:16 PM
O.K., I'll play that game, take the first half of the season and they were #1 overall. Two can skew.

Now I understand why everyone else ignores you. You are the stupidest mother ****** that has ever taken the time to join a discussion forum to talk about anything since the internet began.

gpngc
02-25-2011, 01:29 AM
The issue here is that some people think A.J. Green is Calvin or Fitz, which is somewhat understandable because he is very, very good and people like to overrate the "now". But he is not in the same stratosphere as two of the most gifted receivers the league has EVER seen.

Those types of guys, a team in Denver's situation would have to consider selecting, regardless of their awful defense.

The fact is, A.J. Green is not a prospect on that level and is viewed as one in part because this is a weak draft.

Anyway, I think Denver would take Fairley, Dareus, or Bowers before Peterson.

LonghornsLegend
02-25-2011, 01:46 AM
The issue here is that some people think A.J. Green is Calvin or Fitz, which is somewhat understandable because he is very, very good and people like to overrate the "now". But he is not in the same stratosphere as two of the most gifted receivers the league has EVER seen.

Those types of guys, a team in Denver's situation would have to consider selecting, regardless of their awful defense.

The fact is, A.J. Green is not a prospect on that level and is viewed as one in part because this is a weak draft.

Anyway, I think Denver would take Fairley, Dareus, or Bowers before Peterson.


I agree completely. AJ is a great prospect but I really don't view him in the same tier as those guys. Then again I have Julio ranked higher so that could be just crazy ol' me.

Halsey
02-25-2011, 02:19 AM
The issue here is that some people think A.J. Green is Calvin or Fitz, which is somewhat understandable because he is very, very good and people like to overrate the "now". But he is not in the same stratosphere as two of the most gifted receivers the league has EVER seen.

Those types of guys, a team in Denver's situation would have to consider selecting, regardless of their awful defense.

The fact is, A.J. Green is not a prospect on that level and is viewed as one in part because this is a weak draft.

Anyway, I think Denver would take Fairley, Dareus, or Bowers before Peterson.

The Denver Broncos have to choose from players available in the 2011 Draft...Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are already on NFL rosters. Meaningless opinions about whether AJ is on their level don't really matter. If he's one of the top players in a Weak Draft, he's till one of the top players in the Draft.

Perhaps in your world the Broncos should also pass on any D-lineman, because nobody in this Draft is on the same level as Julius Peppers or Ndamukong Suh? Patrick Peterson isn't quite on Deion's level as a prospect. Looks like drafting Peterson just went out the window for the Broncos.

Oh, and fans who think they can accurately measure the strength of an entire Draft are full of ****.

georgiafan
02-25-2011, 09:48 AM
I see the denver passing attack taking a step back without Mcdaniels. Lloyd has been average every year except last year and the QB's are still below avg. Projecting this team 2 years from now none of them are special enough to not draft A.J if they think he is the best player in the draft. Thomas could be, but has been hurt his last 2 years.

A Perfect Score
02-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Its weird...looking through this thread, it wasn't long ago the Broncos had Cutler and Marshall and an explosive offense. They've been totally deconstructed and I'm not sure they're better off for it

Diehard
02-25-2011, 10:47 AM
Per Gary Miller at the combine:

http://twitter.com/thegarymiller


Fox just told me he's a "talent" guy. He'll draft best player available regardless of position.


Of course you need to take it with a grain of salt as they may just be trying to drum up interest in the #2 pick. However, I think it may be closer to the truth and I won't be disappointed if they make a pick because they truly believe that prospect has the most talent. We're short on talent due to dubious decisions by both Shanahan and McD, and the high draft position this time is a good opportunity to turn that around a bit.

Halsey
02-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Maybe I'm too low on the D-lineman in this draft, but there's been too many DTs and DEs who haven't panned out. I worry that guys like Fairley and Bowers are the next Courtney Brown and Gerrard Warren. The Broncos can just bring those guys in after the team that drafts them doesn't want them anymore. :D

ThePudge
02-25-2011, 02:06 PM
Maybe I'm too low on the D-lineman in this draft, but there's been too many DTs and DEs who haven't panned out. I worry that guys like Fairley and Bowers are the next Courtney Brown and Gerrard Warren. The Broncos can just bring those guys in after the team that drafts them doesn't want them anymore. :D

I think you only need to realize one thing: the Broncos WILL NOT draft any receiver 2nd Overall. It could be Green, it could be Calvin Johnson, either way it is NOT HAPPENING. Would A.J. Green help the Broncos? Absolutely. Will he be arguably that best player on the board when Denver picks? He could be. But seeing as the team has publicly come out and said defense is (without a doubt) their first priority, anyone can guarantee you that Green WILL NOT be the pick. You don't seem to understand that they have roughly 5 or 6 starting positions open on the defensive side. 7th rated passing offense in the league, 1st & 3rd Rounder used at WR last year, not to mention a Pro-Bowler in Brandon Lloyd. 32nd in the league in total defense. 25th passing, 31st rushing. And you, in all your wisdom, think a WR is what this team needs? Completely ridiculous.

Stop being so ignorant. We know you like the guy, we know you think he's the best in this class... but its mind-blowing that you think the draft and running a franchise is that simple.

bigfreak314
02-25-2011, 02:32 PM
I think you only need to realize one thing: the Broncos WILL NOT draft any receiver 2nd Overall. It could be Green, it could be Calvin Johnson, either way it is NOT HAPPENING. Would A.J. Green help the Broncos? Absolutely. Will he be arguably that best player on the board when Denver picks? He could be. But seeing as the team has publicly come out and said defense is (without a doubt) their first priority, anyone can guarantee you that Green WILL NOT be the pick. You don't seem to understand that they have roughly 5 or 6 starting positions open on the defensive side. 7th rated passing offense in the league, 1st & 3rd Rounder used at WR last year, not to mention a Pro-Bowler in Brandon Lloyd. 32nd in the league in total defense. 25th passing, 31st rushing. And you, in all your wisdom, think a WR is what this team needs? Completely ridiculous.

Stop being so ignorant. We know you like the guy, we know you think he's the best in this class... but its mind-blowing that you think the draft and running a franchise is that simple.

AMEN!!! it seems quite pointless to go back and forth on something the whole f******* world knows is not going to happen. Props to you and NJX for humoring this guy.

LonghornsLegend
02-25-2011, 03:45 PM
Maybe I'm too low on the D-lineman in this draft, but there's been too many DTs and DEs who haven't panned out. I worry that guys like Fairley and Bowers are the next Courtney Brown and Gerrard Warren. The Broncos can just bring those guys in after the team that drafts them doesn't want them anymore. :D

So because former DT's were bust, you'd prefer to just pass on them. Yet earlier in this thread you pretty much proclaimed AJ Green a lock for Canton. Really? You should probably just exit this thread.

A Perfect Score
02-25-2011, 03:52 PM
So because former DT's were bust, you'd prefer to just pass on them. Yet earlier in this thread you pretty much proclaimed AJ Green a lock for Canton. Really? You should probably just exit this thread.

Hell I'd be in favor of him exiting the board.

Halsey
02-25-2011, 03:58 PM
I never said Green was a lock for Canton. I said he's a lock for stardom. Anyone who wants to bet against me, step on up. I'll enjoy watching Green prove you wrong. My opinion on him has actually increased through this pre-Draft process, so far. He's showing that he 'gets it'. I know the Broncos have major needs on defense, but every team needs special players. He's a good pick for any team. You might think I'm being a homer, but you'll see.

Saints-Tigers
02-25-2011, 03:58 PM
Am I the only one that thinks we get more AJ Green or better quality receivers in the drafts than Patrick Peterson level CBs?

TitanHope
02-25-2011, 05:26 PM
I never said Green was a lock for Canton. I said he's a lock for stardom. Anyone who wants to bet against me, step on up. I'll enjoy watching Green prove you wrong. My opinion on him has actually increased through this pre-Draft process, so far. He's showing that he 'gets it'. I know the Broncos have major needs on defense, but every team needs special players. He's a good pick for any team. You might think I'm being a homer, but you'll see.

It is a unanimous opinion that A.J. Green will be a good player with the capability of being great, and practically everyone has agreed to that. That's not what people are arguing. How you can not understand that and choose to keep spiraling in your argument is beyond me, and the only logical choice is that you're ignorant and blind to counter arguments. You're throwing out logical and alternate scenarios, and focus only on one which you play off as fact. As someone who tried to debate this with you earlier in this thread without treating you like the homer you are and casting off your biased proposal, I'm now kicking myself and wondering why the hell I didn't put you on "ignore" on the spot.

But yeah, "best WR prospect since Calvin Johnson." I agree. He'll be a great player. But who took Calvin Johnson? The Detroit Lions, who have done nothing but lose despite his special talent. But by all means, continue with your homerism-driven chip on your shoulder. Come back and bump this thread saying "I told you so," in 4 years when A.J. Green is a great player (or more like his first 100-yard game, because we all know you'd come thumping your chest after the first positive thing the guy does). Because we'll reply laughing when Green has led Denver to a 15-49, which is Detroit's record since acquiring a special WR. What's the point of having a special player if the team will still suck with him? And why is it you can't admit that which has been so plainly and eloquently explained to you?

The funny thing about all ^that? The Lions actually had a need for a young, talented WR.

Am I the only one that thinks we get more AJ Green or better quality receivers in the drafts than Patrick Peterson level CBs?

I will say that Peterson matches Green in talent, but both level of players are rare. I do think shutdown CB's are rarer and more valuable than legit #1 WR's.

Halsey
02-25-2011, 05:55 PM
My argument is not spiraling and I understand what people have said. Just because some people here get their knickers in a twist over my posts doesn't mean I have to stop posting. Nobody is forcing you to read and reply. My point has remained firm. It's others who are trying to put words in my mouth about claiming I said Green is headed to Canton or that my argument has 'spiraled'.

Timbathia
02-26-2011, 12:15 AM
I have to say that after this whole discussion it would be pretty ******* funny if we did draft Green.

alexthegr8
02-27-2011, 05:00 PM
The issue here is that some people think A.J. Green is Calvin or Fitz, which is somewhat understandable because he is very, very good and people like to overrate the "now". But he is not in the same stratosphere as two of the most gifted receivers the league has EVER seen.

Those types of guys, a team in Denver's situation would have to consider selecting, regardless of their awful defense.

The fact is, A.J. Green is not a prospect on that level and is viewed as one in part because this is a weak draft.

Anyway, I think Denver would take Fairley, Dareus, or Bowers before Peterson.

I actually think that Green is a comparable TALENT to Fitzgerald. Physically, they are very similar. Fitz measured in at 6-3 221, ran a 4.51 and a 4.47 at his pro day (remember that 40 times are often quicker at pro days than the combine; for example Carlos Dunlap ran a 4.70 at the combine last year and then a 4.57 at his pro day. There are many, many more examples of that too.) He benched 225 20 times and had a 35 inch vert. Green checked in at roughly 6-4 211, 4.48 unofficial 40, 18 reps at 225 and 35 inch vert.

Obviously a player's physical prowess is only a part of the story, but I actually think that both player's strengths are exactly the same (body control, hands, route running) and transcend their measurables. It's impossible to project whether or not Green will be as successful as Fitz has been in the pros (a lot of variables involved in that type of projection), but from a pure talent perspective, I feel like Green is pretty close to Fitz athletically and skillwise.

Calvin Johnson is just a different beast altogether. Neither Fitz or Green are on the same planet as CJ physically.

gpngc
02-27-2011, 05:04 PM
I disagree. Fitzgerald at Pitt was probably the best college WR I've ever seen. I'm not big on combine #s.

alexthegr8
02-27-2011, 05:13 PM
I disagree. Fitzgerald at Pitt was probably the best college WR I've ever seen. I'm not big on combine #s.

I'd probably lean Randy Moss, but Fitz was certainly extraordinarily productive at Pitt. In my opinion though, it's better to look at the individual talent rather than production when projecting players to the pros because of the variability of a player's respective collegiate situation (you actually want to look at both, but an individual player's talent combined with his work ethic, toughness and mental acuity are far more important than how productive they were in college.)

From a raw talent perspective, I think that Green is Fitz's equal (or close to it.) My opinion of course.

gpngc
02-27-2011, 05:23 PM
I'd probably lean Randy Moss, but Fitz was certainly extraordinarily productive at Pitt. In my opinion though, it's better to look at the individual talent rather than production when projecting players to the pros because of the variability of a player's respective collegiate situation (you actually want to look at both, but an individual player's talent combined with his work ethic, toughness and mental acuity are far more important than how productive they were in college.)

From a raw talent perspective, I think that Green is Fitz's equal (or close to it.) My opinion of course.

Agree to disagree.

I don't think Green is near the level that Fitz was at.

katnip
02-28-2011, 09:34 PM
Bailey discussion goes in the NFL section, I'm aware. This is for discussion about the #2 pick now that Peterson makes far less sense for Denver. Also I want to see the Broncos fans here argue with non-Broncos fans, because that's always funny.

Who will it be? Bowers/Fairley? Still Peterson? Trade? Wild card?

Are the Broncos switching to a 43 defense with John Fox? I'm assuming they are.. So I'd say they should draft a interior DL. To compliment Elvis Dumervil's pass rushing ability as a OLB/DE. Plus John Fox is a defensive guy. Or another nasty DE. Like Bowers, etc.

Diehard
02-28-2011, 10:22 PM
Are the Broncos switching to a 43 defense with John Fox?

Yes.

So I'd say they should draft a interior DL. To compliment Elvis Dumervil's pass rushing ability as a OLB/DE. Plus John Fox is a defensive guy. Or another nasty DE. Like Bowers, etc.

In terms of what we're hearing from the team...

* Both Fox and Xanders indicated that increasing the team's speed and athleticism on defense is a priority for the team
* The importance of disruptive play from the front seven has been mentioned a number of times
* While Fox had some positive things to say about Dumervil and Ayers as DE's in the new scheme, he hasn't said much about the current interior players

DT seems like the obvious choice - there are top 5 guys available for the interior and there is the appropriate positional value. A number of the other spots that need upgrading (MLB, SLB, S) don't really work at #2. Von Miller would certainly fit the image that they are painting, but WLB is one of the few spots where they have solid pieces. I think Peterson could still be in the mix, even with Champ getting signed, if they believe he is clearly the BPA-defense.

Namy
02-28-2011, 10:54 PM
With the re-signing of Champ Bailey, I think we can afford to take a DB in the later rounds and try to seek out an elite D-Lineman with our #2 overall pick (Although, for a while, this was grounded in my belief that we could nab Jimmy Smith in round 2. That no longer seems like a possibility).

I've expressed this on the team boards multiple times already, and I think that the Broncos should select Marcel Dareus. We need more help at the DT position than the DE. People say that Fairley has more "upside" than Fairley. It's possible, but I don't see it. Dareus doesn't carry some of the baggage that Fairley seems to have, however.

All that to say, I won't complain if we get PP. He would blossom under the tutelage of Champ Bailey. I don't think it's the optimal choice, but it's pretty darn good.


I'd also like to make a comment about AJ Green. People have been comparing his play to Larry Fitzgerald. But to me, he reminds me an awful lot of Reggie Wayne. Anyone else see the resemblance in play?

bigbluedefense
03-01-2011, 09:55 AM
i don't buy the comparison to either. i like aj green. i think he'll probably be a decent wr. but he's nowhere near that fitzgerald level. are people on the team boards actually advocating we take a wr? *shakes head*

in any case, if we don't go with peterson, i'd rather we didn't draft a CB at all. assuming people go about where i figure (something like 5 cbs in the first, though i haven't looked at the combine stuff yet), there won't, imo, be any value whatsoever at the position afterwards. i'd just as soon draft some interior OL or a RT late.

i can't help but think that sounds like sour grapes, but PP is really the only CB i think we ought to consider. beyond him, i don't actually even like any of the CBs in this draft (especially jimmy smith, no offense namy).

I'm a fan of Amukamara as well. Always liked him, especially if put in a press man coverage scheme.

A Perfect Score
03-01-2011, 10:07 AM
i don't buy the comparison to either. i like aj green. i think he'll probably be a decent wr. but he's nowhere near that fitzgerald level. are people on the team boards actually advocating we take a wr? *shakes head*

in any case, if we don't go with peterson, i'd rather we didn't draft a CB at all. assuming people go about where i figure (something like 5 cbs in the first, though i haven't looked at the combine stuff yet), there won't, imo, be any value whatsoever at the position afterwards. i'd just as soon draft some interior OL or a RT late.

i can't help but think that sounds like sour grapes, but PP is really the only CB i think we ought to consider. beyond him, i don't actually even like any of the CBs in this draft (especially jimmy smith, no offense namy).

You were doing so well until you hated on Jimmy Smith njx :(

JDB7821
03-01-2011, 11:30 AM
I only read the first three pages of the thread, but here's my take on what should happen with the Broncos now.

I still think Peterson should be an option, but I doubt they will take him. With that said, I think Bowers should be the best option past him. You ALWAYS need pass rushers and Fox's system thrives off of athletic pass rushers and fast, physical linebackers. It'd be smart because that way you don't have to rush Dumervil back into action. I think Ayers can be a solid base LE in his system. They can have Dumervil, Bowers, and Ayers rotating.

If the Panthers take Bowers at #1, I'd take Dareus. I know his ceiling isn't as high, but his floor surely isn't as low. I don't see anything out of Fairley that I didn't see out of Glenn Dorsey, but add questionable character on top of it. I think drafting Dareus and then a guy like Houston (if he's there) in the 2nd would make the most sense for the Broncos.

bitonti
03-01-2011, 11:44 AM
I only read the first three pages of the thread, but here's my take on what should happen with the Broncos now.

I still think Peterson should be an option, but I doubt they will take him. With that said, I think Bowers should be the best option past him. You ALWAYS need pass rushers and Fox's system thrives off of athletic pass rushers and fast, physical linebackers. It'd be smart because that way you don't have to rush Dumervil back into action. I think Ayers can be a solid base LE in his system. They can have Dumervil, Bowers, and Ayers rotating.

If the Panthers take Bowers at #1, I'd take Dareus. I know his ceiling isn't as high, but his floor surely isn't as low. I don't see anything out of Fairley that I didn't see out of Glenn Dorsey, but add questionable character on top of it. I think drafting Dareus and then a guy like Houston (if he's there) in the 2nd would make the most sense for the Broncos.

so... given the choice (imagine Carolina takes a QB or Fairley) you would take Bowers over Dareus? The Broncos seem to have more in the cupboard at DE than DT.

JDB7821
03-01-2011, 12:05 PM
so... given the choice (imagine Carolina takes a QB or Fairley) you would take Bowers over Dareus? The Broncos seem to have more in the cupboard at DE than DT.

Probably, yeah. I'd take Bowers and then look for a guy like Wilkerson in the 2nd. I still think the fastest way to fix a defense is to find as many tremendous pass rushers as you can. Dumervil and Bowers on the field on 3rd down would be a nightmare. You could even slide Bowers inside to the 3 technique on 3rd and long and have Doom, Wilkerson, Bowers, and Ayers on the field in that situation.

bigbluedefense
03-01-2011, 12:43 PM
If Peterson is there, I think you have to take Peterson.

The DT class is so deep, there's going to be a very good DT there in round 2 for them.

And this LB core is kind of weak, perhaps they go after a guy in round 3, the mid 2nd to 3rd seems to be where the value is for 4-3 LBs in this draft.

CBs are like pass rushers, you can never have too many of em. You need to have good CBs, passing on Peterson would not be wise.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2011, 06:39 AM
i dunno, every time i saw him play, i was hugely unimpressed. i may have missed something, but he looked out of position, seemed to recover extremely poorly, and just didn't seem to make plays that a guy who could be drafted in the top ten should be making. i only saw a handful of nebraska games, and it's clearly hard to focus on a corner (unless he's screwing up), so maybe i'm off base, but i know some of the guys on the denver board have expressed similar sentiments.



i can't help it... he had a nice highlight tape that i saw a while back, but having seen a lot of CU over the last few years, i have absolutely no idea how he and solder are possible first round guys.

to be fair, i'd probably rate smith and jalil brown roughly the same, and in that 3rd round area. and this is from a guy who *wants* to overrate CU guys and be a big homer.



i so agree with this (as noted on the broncos board). i think there's so much more depth at DT, and you can get 1st round talent in the 2nd, where you can't at DB. i won't hate it if we go bowers, fairley or dareus, but i think we get better value with peterson.

*shrug*

i keep waking up in a cold sweat, thinking we'll take cam newton or something, before i remember that mcdaniels is gone.

To be fair, I only saw 3 Nebraska games. What I liked about him was his physicality at the LOS, and he did a great job shading his man. What I didn't like was I felt he doesn't have great ball skills. He doesn't locate the ball very well. But I love his physicality, and I love how he isn't afraid, you need that in a DB. He doesn't play scared.

He kind of reminds me of Chris McCalister. I don't think he'll be a very good zone defender, he'd thrive in a Rex Ryan type of scheme that's heavily man coverage.

I think he can be had with double moves as well. A guy like Greg Jennings will give him trouble bc once he gets to the 2nd level, he can't sink his hips as well as those speedy WRs.

But I think he makes up for it with his physical play. Everyone kills him for the game vs Blackmon, but I agree with Mayock. Way overblown. 3 plays, 1 PI, 1 trick play, and 1 jumpball. The guy played Blackmon straight up with no safety help for basically every snap and got beat 3 times, twice on flukes.

That's not bad. For a CB to beat a guy like Blackmon for 35 out of 38 snaps (roughly), I think that's pretty damn impressive.