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View Full Version : Need to Change What They Measure?


J52
02-27-2011, 03:08 PM
Bench press is near pointless except for linemen. A SIGNIFICANTLY better measurement would be power clean. Few positions use their upper body strength regularly, everybody on every single play uses every ounce of strength they have in their legs(quarterbacks aren't people.)

Rarely does a players absolute measurement of time to 40 have any usefulness in any sport. However, their 0-10 split is vitally important for every position, 10-20 split is not quite as important as 0-10, but more then 0-40. And their 20-40 split is more important then 0-40 as well. Each of these three measurements are more important then the total. And they are all recorded, but none of them are released except for the sum. Pointless and archaic.

Landing after a broad jump. Why? This is a measurement of lower body power output. This has nothing to do with balance after jumping. They should measure the point of where the heal landed, regardless of balance at the end or not.

Cone drill splits need to be included too. From time of touch at one cone to time of touch at another cone is more important then the total. This drill measures start and stopping ability, but it blurs them together too much. A player can have an extraordinary cone time with either good burst or good change deacceleration. Usually, they are unique. A good time tells you the player has one of them, it has no directive as to which it is.

Just to exemplify, Mark Ingram's measurements are abyssal. His vertical is comparable to offensive linemen. His 40 is impressive for a impressive... for a dlinemen. His size is terrible. Yet his 10 yard split is among the best of the RBs, and this is only known if you watched the entire combine...

descendency
02-27-2011, 03:11 PM
All of the things they currently run at the scouting combine are run for reasons.

Some are straight forward. Some are combined with other drills to produce measures like "explosiveness ratings" and such.

Some of it is just to see how well you prepare. I mean an OL benching 225 15 LBs didn't prepare for the combine. They want to see that everyone is going to take it serious.

But yes, there are tons of little things that could improve scouting (and even some big things). Technology today could do a lot for us.

Brent
02-27-2011, 03:19 PM
I love the 10 yard and 20 yard splits when players run the 40.

That first 10 yards says a lot about a guy's acceleration

foozball
02-27-2011, 04:03 PM
Yea they should only run 10 yards at the combine.

Cicero
02-27-2011, 04:04 PM
I love the 10 yard and 20 yard splits when players run the 40.

That first 10 yards says a lot about a guy's acceleration

They need to post the official times for the 10 and 20 yards splits and they need to have a radar gun drill for the QBs.

Sidney
02-27-2011, 04:47 PM
They need to post the official times for the 10 and 20 yards splits and they need to have a radar gun drill for the QBs.


NFLN should have for all the guys a nice little grid with all the measurables so you can see and sort and compare. I don't know why this is so flippin' hard to do.

Scott Wright
02-27-2011, 05:01 PM
NFLN should have for all the guys a nice little grid with all the measurables so you can see and sort and compare. I don't know why this is so flippin' hard to do.

A big reason is the players and agents.

They don't want bad performances publicized so the kids get embarrassed.

brasho
02-27-2011, 05:03 PM
Bench press is near pointless except for linemen. A SIGNIFICANTLY better measurement would be power clean. Few positions use their upper body strength regularly, everybody on every single play uses every ounce of strength they have in their legs(quarterbacks aren't people.)

Rarely does a players absolute measurement of time to 40 have any usefulness in any sport. However, their 0-10 split is vitally important for every position, 10-20 split is not quite as important as 0-10, but more then 0-40. And their 20-40 split is more important then 0-40 as well. Each of these three measurements are more important then the total. And they are all recorded, but none of them are released except for the sum. Pointless and archaic.

Landing after a broad jump. Why? This is a measurement of lower body power output. This has nothing to do with balance after jumping. They should measure the point of where the heal landed, regardless of balance at the end or not.

Cone drill splits need to be included too. From time of touch at one cone to time of touch at another cone is more important then the total. This drill measures start and stopping ability, but it blurs them together too much. A player can have an extraordinary cone time with either good burst or good change deacceleration. Usually, they are unique. A good time tells you the player has one of them, it has no directive as to which it is.

Just to exemplify, Mark Ingram's measurements are abyssal. His vertical is comparable to offensive linemen. His 40 is impressive for a impressive... for a dlinemen. His size is terrible. Yet his 10 yard split is among the best of the RBs, and this is only known if you watched the entire combine...

First off, bench press DOES NOT measure body strength.... what it measures, and measures well, is a player's weightroom work ethic. There are no shortcuts to hardwork in the gym and the bench press shows who has been working dliligently and who is coasting on natural talent. This work ethic often translates into the practice field as well, a hardworker in the weightroom is more likely to work hard on the practice field and also more likely to take their rehab and injury recovery more seriously.

This is far more important than trying to measure strength. Mush like with speed, some guys are just naturally stronger than others and there are many instances (with me for example) where a guy has excellent numbers on the bench but doesn't have a great max.

Work ethic... that is what the bench press evaluates.

As far the 40's, you stated the numbers are not released... but they are... and besides that, 98% of the public would have no idea of what to do with those numbers and it would be pointless to release anything. The teams know their splits, most websites provide the splits, if you do the math you can figure out all the numbers you want.

The rest of the stuff I don't even feel like commenting on. You don't see the importance, fine. Don't watch.

brasho
02-27-2011, 05:05 PM
A big reason is the players and agents.

They don't want bad performances publicized so the kids get embarrassed.

Kids, you mean the 21-26 year old participants in attendance that are applying for jobs to be playing a game in front of millions of people? I hope they never get beat.

brasho
02-27-2011, 05:06 PM
They need to post the official times for the 10 and 20 yards splits and they need to have a radar gun drill for the QBs.

They do... or did.

thefridge15
02-27-2011, 05:26 PM
You have to make them stick the broad jump landing, or else you can just jump and then kick your legs out and land on your butt, then they mark the back of your feet, which would obviously be totally ridiculous. Once you say they don't have to stick it, your opening everything up for interpretation which the combine is not about at all.

Sidney
02-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Kids, you mean the 21-26 year old participants in attendance that are applying for jobs to be playing a game in front of millions of people? I hope they never get beat.

Well and all this is public, i mean I could sit there and do just what I asked to do, well ok maybe not just one guy, so these aren't state secrets.

Scott Wright
02-27-2011, 05:58 PM
Well and all this is public, i mean I could sit there and do just what I asked to do, well ok maybe not just one guy, so these aren't state secrets.

Tell that to NFL scouts, they think it's state secrets.

Wrathman
02-27-2011, 06:55 PM
I find the 10- and 20-yard split times every year. I can't be the only one.

J52
02-27-2011, 07:02 PM
First off, bench press DOES NOT measure body strength.... what it measures, and measures well, is a player's weightroom work ethic. There are no shortcuts to hardwork in the gym and the bench press shows who has been working dliligently and who is coasting on natural talent. This work ethic often translates into the practice field as well, a hardworker in the weightroom is more likely to work hard on the practice field and also more likely to take their rehab and injury recovery more seriously.

This is far more important than trying to measure strength. Mush like with speed, some guys are just naturally stronger than others and there are many instances (with me for example) where a guy has excellent numbers on the bench but doesn't have a great max.

Work ethic... that is what the bench press evaluates.

As far the 40's, you stated the numbers are not released... but they are... and besides that, 98% of the public would have no idea of what to do with those numbers and it would be pointless to release anything. The teams know their splits, most websites provide the splits, if you do the math you can figure out all the numbers you want.

The rest of the stuff I don't even feel like commenting on. You don't see the importance, fine. Don't watch.

A. Upper body mass isn't universally beneficial, tho. Every pound of anything on a players body is another pound of mass to move. High ratios of power to body weight is what makes a player explosive. Positions that don't have a premium on upper body mass would view a 30 rep max as a negative. Just to look at an extreme, Sean Taylor intentionally kept his upper body strength relatively low to keep his lower body power/mass ratio high. He put up something like 7 reps of 225. Yet he weighed 232 and it was all lower body mass.

In general, usually bench press does represent this well. But, just to compare; it's universal at every position that the more lower body power you have the better. Lower body power also shows good work ethic and it correlates much higher with performance then bench press. To continue the previous example, Sean Taylor has Miami's all time DB power clean record. Obviously showing good work ethic as well as demonstrating power well. Whereas 7 reps would flag a poor work ethic and poor strength.

B. I've never seen these numbers compiled. NFL.com's site is atrocious. ESPN is pay only. Never found a forum or fan site to list anything but standard. Got a link?

TheFinisher
02-27-2011, 07:04 PM
First off, bench press DOES NOT measure body strength.... what it measures, and measures well, is a player's weightroom work ethic. There are no shortcuts to hardwork in the gym and the bench press shows who has been working dliligently and who is coasting on natural talent. This work ethic often translates into the practice field as well, a hardworker in the weightroom is more likely to work hard on the practice field and also more likely to take their rehab and injury recovery more seriously.

This is far more important than trying to measure strength. Mush like with speed, some guys are just naturally stronger than others and there are many instances (with me for example) where a guy has excellent numbers on the bench but doesn't have a great max.

Work ethic... that is what the bench press evaluates.

As far the 40's, you stated the numbers are not released... but they are... and besides that, 98% of the public would have no idea of what to do with those numbers and it would be pointless to release anything. The teams know their splits, most websites provide the splits, if you do the math you can figure out all the numbers you want.

The rest of the stuff I don't even feel like commenting on. You don't see the importance, fine. Don't watch.

Meh, the bench press is actually a very accurate measurement of upper body strength. You see it all the time, guys who are dominant with their hand usage are usually the ones who post the highest rep total. Extension, which is key for front 7 players, is basically a bench press type movement.

As far as measuring work ethic, I don't know if I agree with that either. Someone like Paea could have probably trained half ass and still posted 40 reps, he's just naturally strong. The same could be said for guys who are natural sprinters and post 4.4s. Some of these guys are such great athletes they can coast by on their natural ability and outside observers wouldn't be able to tell at all.

TheFinisher
02-27-2011, 07:07 PM
A. Upper body mass isn't universally beneficial, tho. Every pound of anything on a players body is another pound of mass to move. High ratios of power to body weight is what makes a player explosive. Positions that don't have a premium on upper body mass would view a 30 rep max as a negative. Just to look at an extreme, Sean Taylor intentionally kept his upper body strength relatively low to keep his lower body power/mass ratio high. He put up something like 7 reps of 225. Yet he weighed 232 and it was all lower body mass.

In general, usually bench press does represent this well. But, just to compare; it's universal at every position that the more lower body power you have the better. Lower body power also shows good work ethic and it correlates much higher with performance then bench press. To continue the previous example, Sean Taylor has Miami's all time DB power clean record. Obviously showing good work ethic as well as demonstrating power well. Whereas 7 reps would flag a poor work ethic and poor strength.

B. I've never seen these numbers compiled. NFL.com's site is atrocious. ESPN is pay only. Never found a forum or fan site to list anything but standard. Got a link?

This is true, which is why the bench press for DBs, QBs, and WRs is rather pointless.

They do measure lower body power though, that's what the vert is for.

Brent
02-27-2011, 07:08 PM
Yea they should only run 10 yards at the combine.
hooray for reading comprehension.

wogitalia
02-27-2011, 07:31 PM
I do wish they would do a better job of releasing the results but outside of that the testing is pretty good for what it is.

cajuncorey
02-27-2011, 07:56 PM
Bench press is near pointless except for linemen. A SIGNIFICANTLY better measurement would be power clean. Few positions use their upper body strength regularly, everybody on every single play uses every ounce of strength they have in their legs(quarterbacks aren't people.)

Rarely does a players absolute measurement of time to 40 have any usefulness in any sport. However, their 0-10 split is vitally important for every position, 10-20 split is not quite as important as 0-10, but more then 0-40. And their 20-40 split is more important then 0-40 as well. Each of these three measurements are more important then the total. And they are all recorded, but none of them are released except for the sum. Pointless and archaic.

Landing after a broad jump. Why? This is a measurement of lower body power output. This has nothing to do with balance after jumping. They should measure the point of where the heal landed, regardless of balance at the end or not.

Cone drill splits need to be included too. From time of touch at one cone to time of touch at another cone is more important then the total. This drill measures start and stopping ability, but it blurs them together too much. A player can have an extraordinary cone time with either good burst or good change deacceleration. Usually, they are unique. A good time tells you the player has one of them, it has no directive as to which it is.

Just to exemplify, Mark Ingram's measurements are abyssal. His vertical is comparable to offensive linemen. His 40 is impressive for a impressive... for a dlinemen. His size is terrible. Yet his 10 yard split is among the best of the RBs, and this is only known if you watched the entire combine...

big supporter of the power clean myself. but it would not work at the NFL combine. this is because a lot more technique goes into a power clean than bench press

TheFinisher
02-27-2011, 08:01 PM
big supporter of the power clean myself. but it would not work at the NFL combine. this is because a lot more technique goes into a power clean than bench press

All those guys know how to power clean, it's more of an injury risk than repping 225 on the bench though.

cajuncorey
02-27-2011, 08:12 PM
All those guys know how to power clean, it's more of an injury risk than repping 225 on the bench though.

they may have been taught to power clean but most of the college/nfl players power cleans ive seen have been at a max weight with terrible form and the injury risk is huge when you spread your legs like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIsvP0FEeTo

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-Aky4TdRuI

(00:38 to 1:19)

and my personal favourite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZUoHh8gupE&feature=related

the last two are hang cleans but its pretty much the same lift minus a deadlift

J52
02-27-2011, 08:14 PM
big supporter of the power clean myself. but it would not work at the NFL combine. this is because a lot more technique goes into a power clean than bench press

huh? What does that have to do with it? If you are in the NFL, you can power clean. I understand not using it in high school gym, but it's kinda necessary to clean at least 225 to be in the NFL.

cajuncorey
02-27-2011, 08:16 PM
huh? What does that have to do with it? If you are in the NFL, you can power clean. I understand not using it in high school gym, but it's kinda necessary to clean at least 225 to be in the NFL.

do you think it should be a max or a rep out?

J52
02-27-2011, 08:19 PM
they may have been taught to power clean but most of the college/nfl players power cleans ive seen have been at a max weight with terrible form and the injury risk is huge when you spread your legs like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIsvP0FEeTo

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-Aky4TdRuI

(00:38 to 1:19)

and my personal favourite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZUoHh8gupE&feature=related

the last two are hang cleans but its pretty much the same lift minus a deadlift

Meh, it could be standardized. Tell the kids that they will be tested at the combine with a specific technique type and all the combine training companies will adjust to it.

As far as the injuries go. The kids do cleans during most workout sessions as it is. It's not like you are asking them to do something new. Plus, I've heard of many more injuries bench pressing then I have power cleaning. I've actually seen two catastrophic bench injuries and can't think of much more then a rolled ankle in the power clean. The bar is free to go to the ground in a clean.

TheFinisher
02-27-2011, 08:27 PM
Meh, it could be standardized. Tell the kids that they will be tested at the combine with a specific technique type and all the combine training companies will adjust to it.

As far as the injuries go. The kids do cleans during most workout sessions as it is. It's not like you are asking them to do something new. Plus, I've heard of many more injuries bench pressing then I have power cleaning. I've actually seen two catastrophic bench injuries and can't think of much more then a rolled ankle in the power clean. The bar is free to go to the ground in a clean.

The injury risk of repping 225 on the bench is significantly less than having these guys max out in the power clean.

cajuncorey
02-27-2011, 08:37 PM
The injury risk of repping 225 on the bench is significantly less than having these guys max out in the power clean.

This is exactly what im trying to get across homie

J52
02-27-2011, 08:50 PM
do you think it should be a max or a rep out?

Probably some combination would be best. Perhaps the player determines the weight he would using with a goal of repping three times. If he gets a fourth, so be it. If he only gets two, same. The maximum is pretty well calculable from the reps and weight, so a direct comparative value could be determined.