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Legend234
03-04-2011, 01:50 PM
If it is such a concern of prospects coming from a spread offense, why don't nfl coaches just incorporate a spread system where they go out of the gun and use zone read type concepts? I think that this could be a great system with the right players in it. Why couldn't it work? You just have a bunch of guys who are percy harvin/ reggie bush types and then one really good one on one receiver like an andre johnson, brandon marshall.

wonderbredd24
03-04-2011, 01:52 PM
The weakness of the spread option is the speed of NFL defenses and the risk of getting your quarterback killed... so you'd need 3 quarterbacks, so a team like Minnesota could do it if they were to say... acquire Vince Young and draft Cam Newton in addition to having Joe Webb.

Dealing with the speed of the NFL defenses is a problem though

Using spread sets like 4 and 5 receiver sets already happens, most notably with the Patriots. Bill Belichick has taken many ideas from Urban Meyer

A Perfect Score
03-04-2011, 03:56 PM
It's not unheard of. You're starting to see more and more teams with elements of the college spread in their offensive playbooks. Hell, Josh McDaniels runs an offense that has a ton of similarities, passing wise, to the system Urban Meyer was running down in Florida. Obviously things are tweaked for the NFL, and there are obstacles to overcome, but its slowly but surely playing a role in the development of modern day offenses.

PossibleCabbage
03-04-2011, 04:13 PM
The job of college coaches is to win games in college football, not to groom players for the NFL. Correspondingly, the job of NFL coaches is to win games in the NFL, not to make things easy for their rookies.

To a large extent, the reason that NFL teams won't work in many of the spread concepts from college is that they simply won't work against NFL defenses. You'll either get your quarterback killed, or the superlative athleticism of NFL defensive players (definitely relative to NCAA defensive players) will make it impossible to run a lot of those plays.

You could start the exact same thread 25 years ago asking why NFL teams don't run more option on offense. The reason? Because it doesn't work and it gets your QB hurt. The spread concepts that will work in the NFL are, more or less, the ones that are already present in the NFL.

nepg
03-04-2011, 04:18 PM
As has been said, NFL teams do incorporate it into their systems. But QBs still need to be able to have good foot work and be able to see the field while dropping back. Those are the tough adjustments for spread QBs.

descendency
03-04-2011, 04:21 PM
The 'key' in the ZR is a DE who goes unblocked. In the NFL, leaving a DE unblocked is a strategy for failure, not success. It works in college because of a lack of training, poor gap integrity, etc, etc.

edit: Oregon 'keys' off of a DT, which is what is largely believed to have made their system more successful. Try telling any QB in the NFL that you are going to leave Haloti Ngata unblocked and see what they think...

edit2: The Spread offense is incorporated to the NFL offenses. The Zone-read is the problem. It reduces reads required to be made (to one - called a 'key').Most of these systems also don't require audibles, line checks, etc. . . which leaves a QB vulnerable to being in system shock when they get into the NFL and have to do all that and more.

yourfavestoner
03-04-2011, 04:35 PM
The 'key' in the ZR is a DE who goes unblocked. In the NFL, leaving a DE unblocked is a strategy for failure, not success. It works in college because of a lack of training, poor gap integrity, etc, etc.

edit: Oregon 'keys' off of a DT, which is what is largely believed to have made their system more successful. Try telling any QB in the NFL that you are going to leave Haloti Ngata unblocked and see what they think...

edit2: The Spread offense is incorporated to the NFL offenses. The Zone-read is the problem. It reduces reads required to be made (to one - called a 'key').Most of these systems also don't require audibles, line checks, etc. . . which leaves a QB vulnerable to being in system shock when they get into the NFL and have to do all that and more.

Exactly. Passing concepts from the spread have been in the NFL since the days of the run n' shoot. It's the zone read and option stuff that doesn't fly in the NFL.

RaiderNation
03-04-2011, 04:37 PM
Basically NFL offenses cannot run a true spread offence because of the talent in the NFL. The spread offence takes advantage of weaker athletes on defense allowing the speed from the RB/WR to be able to dominate. In the NFL you have LB's running 4.4's and 4.5's and DLmen running in the 4.6's-4.8's range and are real football players which is crazy. College teams simply dont have the all around talent the NFL teams do which makes the spread offence so successfull

Brent
03-04-2011, 04:39 PM
Exactly. Passing concepts from the spread have been in the NFL since the days of the run n' shoot. It's the zone read and option stuff that doesn't fly in the NFL.

Dan Marino in this day's NFL would be putting up unreal stats.

JoeJoeBrown
03-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Basically NFL offenses cannot run a true spread offence because of the talent in the NFL. The spread offence takes advantage of weaker athletes on defense allowing the speed from the RB/WR to be able to dominate. In the NFL you have LB's running 4.4's and 4.5's and DLmen running in the 4.6's-4.8's range and are real football players which is crazy. College teams simply dont have the all around talent the NFL teams do which makes the spread offence so successfull

This is true, but some college teams can stop it pretty easily now. OSU for one is geared to destroy the spread (unfortunately, power running teams move the D around).

You are seeing teams move away from the traditional spread into different flavors of the single wing offense.

Regardless, as descendency said, the keys are DL, and there is no way you leave an NFL d-lineman unblocked. No way. Even the fat out of shape guys are fast. Also, defenses are way too fast for the spread to effective as the primary offense. As a disguised alternative, yes, it can work.

BeerBaron
03-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Dan Marino in this day's NFL would be putting up unreal stats.

He put up unreal stats in his day and age....they'd be even more unreal-i-er in today's NFL.

JoeJoeBrown
03-04-2011, 04:47 PM
He put up unreal stats in his day and age....they'd be even more unreal-i-er in today's NFL.

I dunno, it's harder for a player to get away with rampant cocaine use nowadays.

brat316
03-04-2011, 04:50 PM
Seczzzz speedzz can't stop the ZR Spread?

FUNBUNCHER
03-04-2011, 04:54 PM
I dunno, it's harder for a player to get away with rampant cocaine use nowadays.

No you didn't call Marino a cokehead.

JoeJoeBrown
03-04-2011, 05:03 PM
No you didn't call Marino a cokehead.

Those were only rumors, but I believe them. If it makes you feel better, Jim Kelly was a cokehead. I know this because I am friends with people that partied with him, multiple times, back in the day. Totally different era, however.

BTW, why do you think Marino slid down so far?

jayceheathman
03-04-2011, 05:10 PM
I asked the same question awhile back and one of realistic answers I got was that it makes it hard to run the ball because you are limited to the draw play. The defense can more than likely expect pass when you are in shotgun.

ElectricEye
03-04-2011, 05:14 PM
Zone read doesn't work in the NFL, but spread concepts have worked for a long time. Running the ball effectively is the problem as you are usually showing your hand lining up under center. One thing the Patriots do to counter that is speed things up and try to catch the defense off balance when not in the base formation on offense.

JoeJoeBrown
03-04-2011, 05:18 PM
Zone read doesn't work in the NFL, but spread concepts have worked for a long time. Running the ball effectively is the problem as you are usually showing your hand lining up under center. One thing the Patriots do to counter that is speed things up and try to catch the defense off balance when not in the base formation on offense.

One thing that I don't get is why offenses still bunch up on the goal-line. This is so caveman and dumb it blows my mind. Spread the freaking WRs and TE out. Get fewer defenders in the box so you can punch the ball in easier if you want to run it. Make it tougher for the defense if you roll out or pitch it (Wildcat threat).

yourfavestoner
03-04-2011, 05:28 PM
One thing that I don't get is why offenses still bunch up on the goal-line. This is so caveman and dumb it blows my mind. Spread the freaking WRs and TE out. Get fewer defenders in the box so you can punch the ball in easier if you want to run it. Make it tougher for the defense if you roll out or pitch it (Wildcat threat).

The main reason is the lack of space is inherently advantageous to defenses in the redzone. I will say, though, that the most underrated goalline splay is the QB draw out of the gun. How many TDs did Vick score on that play alone this year? A ton.

JoeJoeBrown
03-04-2011, 05:36 PM
The main reason is the lack of space is inherently advantageous to defenses in the redzone. I will say, though, that the most underrated goalline splay is the QB draw out of the gun. How many TDs did Vick score on that play alone this year? A ton.

Yeah, I get the short field thing, but the bunch kills me.

And, as you said, the QB draw is awesome with a mobile QB where you spread your WRs out.

descendency
03-04-2011, 10:17 PM
Seczzzz speedzz can't stop the ZR Spread?

They just did 4 of the last 5 times...

Legend234
03-04-2011, 11:32 PM
thats true about the qb getting killed with the read option. I never thought about that. I don't really buy the argument that NFL denfenses are too fast to run an offense that utilizes bubble screens and getting athletes in space. Everything is relative. If you get a lot of rb-receiver hybrids who are good in space, it would be an amazing system. All schemes should be based off of where the offense has a numerical advantage and that is what the spread does.

batsandgats
03-05-2011, 12:17 AM
I asked the same question awhile back and one of realistic answers I got was that it makes it hard to run the ball because you are limited to the draw play. The defense can more than likely expect pass when you are in shotgun.

Then the solution should be to use the pistol, get the benefits of both the gun and the I formation. You could still run the same concepts. I know the Chiefs used it with Thigpen but haven't kept up with it in the NFL.

yourfavestoner
03-05-2011, 12:23 AM
I actually think we're going to see the pistol make its way into the NFL soon.

Timbathia
03-05-2011, 02:33 AM
The main reason is the lack of space is inherently advantageous to defenses in the redzone. I will say, though, that the most underrated goalline splay is the QB draw out of the gun. How many TDs did Vick score on that play alone this year? A ton.

Tebow agrees.

bigbluedefense
03-05-2011, 06:56 AM
I actually think we're going to see the pistol make its way into the NFL soon.

I'm surprised it's taken this long to gather steam. It makes perfect sense.

Another thing we're overlooking is the importance of a scrambling qb in today's NFL. With the spread set becoming more popular than ever, mobility from the qb position is gaining importance as well.

We're seeing a growing number of hybrid qbs coming out bc of the emergence of this style of offense, and I think the traditional values of a quarterback in the NFL may be a bit blurred moving forward.

JoeJoeBrown
03-05-2011, 08:25 AM
Like I said way earlier single wing style offense is making it's way into the NFL. That includes the pistol. You guys do realize that the single wing style offenses are ancient. These are formations that Have been around for decades. Back to your great grandparents days.

Here is a fun read. (http://swsentinel.blogspot.com/2007/10/pistol-is-lot-like-old-single-wing.html)

hockey619
03-05-2011, 08:38 AM
thats true about the qb getting killed with the read option. I never thought about that. I don't really buy the argument that NFL denfenses are too fast to run an offense that utilizes bubble screens and getting athletes in space. Everything is relative. If you get a lot of rb-receiver hybrids who are good in space, it would be an amazing system. All schemes should be based off of where the offense has a numerical advantage and that is what the spread does.


The problem is the idea of having space to run. In the NFL, this just doesnt exist. Rarely is a guy in space with time to take a guy on one on one. The other defenders close too quickly for that to work. Almost any NFL player can run well in space, but being able to run in tight quarters and keep on your feet is whats really necessary and hard to do.

ElectricEye
03-05-2011, 09:57 AM
Count me in the group that thinks we're going to see the pistol in the NFL soon as well. Steelers did it a bit last year and it worked pretty well from what I saw. I'm willing to bet we see a couple teams use it as a regular formation this year.

PossibleCabbage
03-05-2011, 11:21 AM
I think the key distinction is that NFL teams will run plays out of any and every set, but they'll do it to give the defense something they haven't seen to keep them off balance.

So while we'll probably see NFL teams running more plays out of the pistol set, you won't see "the pistol offense" because if an NFL team shows it often enough other teams are going to see it coming and know how to stop it.

NFL offenses are, for the most part, "whatever works" and the playbooks are huge because the men who have to learn them are professionals. Doing one thing all the time helps the defense stop it, more than anything else.

brat316
03-05-2011, 11:45 AM
What were the packers running? Split Fb/TE, and then Rb behind that.

ElectricEye
03-05-2011, 11:46 AM
What were the packers running? Split Fb/TE, and then Rb behind that.

Bone Formation. Very, very effective with the personal they had. Big fan of that and I wouldn't be surprised to see that get copied soon.

SenorGato
03-05-2011, 12:08 PM
I actually think we're going to see the pistol make its way into the NFL soon.

Jets already do that with Brad Smith...it's not a Wildcat like everyone says it is.

I could believe it...it helps with running the ball a little bit and has it's uses.

SF Dolphin Fan
03-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Another point is I think a lot of college quarterbacks are more prepared for the spread than the conventional NFL offenses. Guys like Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick could really flourish with a coach who utilizes a system like this where you know a receiver is going to be open. Yes the speed of the defense means the qb has to make quick decisions, but you are also wearing out the defense. Case in point, as others have said, the New England Patriots. Plus there aren't enough good corners to match up with the quality receivers in the NFL today and the rules of the game makes it harder for corners to match up anyway.

PossibleCabbage
03-05-2011, 01:14 PM
Guys like Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick could really flourish with a coach who utilizes a system like this where you know a receiver is going to be open.

I don't think such a system can exist in the NFL. You can go 5 wide, and after a 3 step drop it's still not a guarantee that anybody is open the way good NFL teams play coverage.

umphrey
03-05-2011, 01:51 PM
The spread option will never survive in the NFL. QB health is the most important factor to a team. With the PI rules an accurate QB is paramount to success. The spread option would get blown up for a loss on 1st and 10 half the time leading to 2 passing downs where the offense can't do crap since they can't pass the ball. Mostly, though, it just couldn't be as successful running the ball and half of your seasons would get washed down the drain because your quarterback is on IR.

batsandgats
03-05-2011, 03:31 PM
I don't know, cornerback seems to be the weakest position in the NFL. There aren't that many shut down corners, if you go 5 wide, most teams don't have 5 guys that can cover that well. Its alot easier to find a slot receiver than it is a cornerback.

As far as the pistol, it doesn't make sense why more teams haven't already toyed around with it, unless they just don't like change. I mean shotgun formation is listed as the qb lined up 5 to 7 yards from the los, when I see it in the NFL the qb is usually only lined up 4 yards from the los, which is the same as the pistol. Just line a back up 3 yards behind that instead of right to the side.

As for the spread option not working, that depends. I think it could be thrown in a few times a game to throw a defense off. Like all ideas in the NFL you can't have just one single concept and run with it. One of the best ways to neutralize a pass rush is have your qb being at least a threat to run the ball. Doesn't mean he has to run it all the time to where he gets injured, but a few running plays won't make him any more prone to injury than a qb getting hit from the blindside, which happens quite often whether you see it or not. Tebow learned how to avoid as much contact as possible after the rib shot in preseason. Quarterbacks are athletes, football players just like the rest of the team, they aren't made of glass, they can take some hits and not end up on IR. I mean a guy like Aaron Rodgers ran the ball over 60 times last year and is fine, and its not like they were designed running plays and hes not the type of qb to run if his first guy isn't open, he still managed to throw for 3900 yards. Adding the zone read woldn't be that much different, it would be 3 to 5 plays a game at the most, which is not going to put most qbs on IR.

vD5g97up3gg at 1:12 zone read .

JoeJoeBrown
03-05-2011, 03:54 PM
vD5g97up3gg at 1:12 zone read .

It's a damn shame that you have to throw the ball in the NFL to be a real QB.

batsandgats
03-05-2011, 04:06 PM
He threw the ball 81 times in his 3 starts. Completed 50 percent of his passes for 4 tds and 3 interceptions, which is not bad for someone who was considered a project. He was a reach as a first rounder but he provided 6 rushing touchdowns to go along with 5 passing so Id say he has a future in the NFL. His passer rating was 82 which is not bad for a first year qb. Its much better than someone like Vince Young who had a 67 rating his rookie year, and only 1 more rushing td.

So 81 times in 3 games would be 432 in 16 with 217 completed for 3472 yards 21 tds to 16 interceptions.

PossibleCabbage
03-05-2011, 04:40 PM
So 81 times in 3 games would be 432 in 16 with 217 completed for 3472 yards 21 tds to 16 interceptions.

You can't prorate numbers like that for QBs with very little game tape on them. As teams get more tape on first-time starters, they get less successful as defenses become aware of their tendencies and figure out what they can do to stop them.

Best to just not bother prorating anybody.