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View Full Version : Anyone see Brian Baldinger do just that to Mayock?


Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 09:44 AM
Man, talk about calling someone out!!! He undressed Mayock after Mayock ranked Costanzo as his #10 player overall!! Basically calling him a Boston College homer which he is and pointed out all sorts of flaws in Constanzo's game that Mayock had been ignoring. It was hilarious to see how made Mayock was getting. He was sitting there rocking back and forth like he was about to spaz! Anyone see this?

DeathbyStat
03-13-2011, 11:39 AM
yes i found it refreshing to actually have a spirited debate instead of yes man Charles Davis agreeing with Mayock the whole way. They needed Casserly in there to make it a three way dance.

Tom Servo
03-13-2011, 11:43 AM
Damn, really sad I missed that. Baldingers a meathead but I hate Mayock

Babylon
03-13-2011, 12:18 PM
Supply and demand along with athletic ability probably pushes Castonzo up into the top dozen or so picks so not sure where Baldinger is coming from, although i havent seen the clip nor do i wish to actually.

SolidGold
03-13-2011, 12:21 PM
Costanzo is probably the safest o-line pick in the draft. Not sure where Baldinger is coming from.

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 12:24 PM
Supply and demand along with athletic ability probably pushes Castonzo up into the top dozen or so picks so not sure where Baldinger is coming from, although i havent seen the clip nor do i wish to actually.

I didn't see the clip but I did watch Castonzo a few time this year and I didn't much care for what I saw. It scares me that the Bears just may take him....I'd definitely prefer Carimi even though I don't love him at LT.

If you want someone athletic with upside, take Smith or Solder. If you want someone "safer" who will, at worst, make for a solid RT, take Carimi. Didn't love what I saw in Castonzo this year. Definitely overrated in my book.

PossibleCabbage
03-13-2011, 12:25 PM
I think a lot of this sprung out of the flack that Baldinger took for his "Mock Draft" (really, a mock top 10) this week where he mocked Carimi to the Cowboys. Both Charles Davis and Mike Mayock took exception to that for reasons including "You don't take right tackles that high", "Carimi isn't even the best offensive lineman in the draft", and "Two days ago, you ripped me for giving an OL to the Cowboys when you said they would never do that."

Babylon
03-13-2011, 12:28 PM
Hard to believe these guys would get upset with each other over meaningless daily top 10 lists.

vidae
03-13-2011, 12:29 PM
Brian Baldinger is an idiot and questioning whether or not Mike Mayock could be objective about a prospect based on his school was a dick move imo.

I'm all up for debate and a healthy argument, but come on.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:33 PM
yes i found it refreshing to actually have a spirited debate instead of yes man Charles Davis agreeing with Mayock the whole way. They needed Casserly in there to make it a three way dance.

Yeah, it would have been nice if someone said something to him when the was making the empty claim that Vernon Gholston could play the OLB in a 3-4 even though he had never done it and never displayed skills that showed he could.

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 12:36 PM
Yeah, it would have been nice if someone said something to him when the was making the empty claim that Vernon Gholston could play the OLB in a 3-4 even though he had never done it and never displayed skills that showed he could.

While no one would disagree about how terrible Gholston is, this is actually true about the majority of 3-4 OLB prospects.

Most were simply undersized DEs in college and you have to do a lot of projection to how well they'll translate to beinga 3-4 OLB in the pros.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:38 PM
Supply and demand along with athletic ability probably pushes Castonzo up into the top dozen or so picks so not sure where Baldinger is coming from, although i havent seen the clip nor do i wish to actually.

But it wasn't his mock it was his overall player RANKING. Costanzo isn't close to being the #10 player in the draft. By the way, he had him over Bowers!

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:41 PM
Brian Baldinger is an idiot and questioning whether or not Mike Mayock could be objective about a prospect based on his school was a dick move imo.

I'm all up for debate and a healthy argument, but come on.

What other explanation can be offered for ranking this guy the #10 PLAYER in the entire draft??

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:46 PM
While no one would disagree about how terrible Gholston is, this is actually true about the majority of 3-4 OLB prospects.

Most were simply undersized DEs in college and you have to do a lot of projection to how well they'll translate to beinga 3-4 OLB in the pros.

I think you have to be able to do things like back peddle, cover and read as a OLB in a 3-4. What I'm saying is that the stiff Gholston didn't show he could do any of those things much less a repetoire of pass rush moves and NO ONE questioned it. It was completely unjustified. Mayock would state that Gholston could play the position as if it wasn't even a question.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:48 PM
I think a lot of this sprung out of the flack that Baldinger took for his "Mock Draft" (really, a mock top 10) this week where he mocked Carimi to the Cowboys. Both Charles Davis and Mike Mayock took exception to that for reasons including "You don't take right tackles that high", "Carimi isn't even the best offensive lineman in the draft", and "Two days ago, you ripped me for giving an OL to the Cowboys when you said they would never do that."

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there acknowledge doubt as to whether or not Jake Long could play LT? He went #1 overall. I didn't know it was a given that Carimi was a RT only.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:50 PM
I didn't see the clip but I did watch Castonzo a few time this year and I didn't much care for what I saw. It scares me that the Bears just may take him....I'd definitely prefer Carimi even though I don't love him at LT.

If you want someone athletic with upside, take Smith or Solder. If you want someone "safer" who will, at worst, make for a solid RT, take Carimi. Didn't love what I saw in Castonzo this year. Definitely overrated in my book.

And that's what Baldinger was saying. He said that Castonzo is not a natural bender and gets over extended easily and the implication was that Mayock knew this, but ignores it.

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 12:50 PM
I think you have to be able to do things like back peddle, cover and read as a OLB in a 3-4. What I'm saying is that the stiff Gholston didn't show he could do any of those things much less a repetoire of pass rush moves and NO ONE questioned it. It was completely unjustified. Mayock would state that Gholston could play the position as if it wasn't even a question.

Right, you do, and you don't really get to see that in live game action from college 4-3 DEs.

Gholston was terrible and shouldn't have been talked about in such a way, but projecting 4-3 DEs to 3-4 OLBs is difficult enough to begin with.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
Right, you do, and you don't really get to see that in live game action from college 4-3 DEs.

Gholston was terrible and shouldn't have been talked about in such a way, but projecting 4-3 DEs to 3-4 OLBs is difficult enough to begin with.

And so if you are going to promote that a guy is capable of doing so and that same guy is worth of the top five pick, IMO, you should have more evidence and do a better evaluation. Gholston was STIFF as a football player. He only made plays that were right in front of him to make. The second the play went away from him, he was completely invisible. He showed poor agility as a 4-3 DE. He didn't look good in post season drills. He looks like a body builder, not a football player. In fact his father was a body builder. NONE of the measurables he showed translated to the field and draft experts get paid to know this. He failed miserably. Not saying he was the only one, but the way the NFL N is set up, none of he yes men surrounding him dared differ with him. And while he is hated on this board, Todd McShay nailed Gholston to a chorus of boos.

thebow305
03-13-2011, 01:03 PM
I do like Carimi better than Castonzo. But even though Mayock is saying he's never even met the kid, he's clearly being biased ranking the guy his #1. Tyron is easily the top guy IMO. I love Mayock, but AC the #10 player in this draft? That's hilarious.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 01:14 PM
I do like Carimi better than Castonzo. But even though Mayock is saying he's never even met the kid, he's clearly being biased ranking the guy his #1. Tyron is easily the top guy IMO. I love Mayock, but AC the #10 player in this draft? That's hilarious.

Thank you. NO WAY that guy is the 10th best player in the draft!!

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 01:16 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the big time TV draft "personalities" like to put out unusual rankings and mocks that will get people's attention. It probably has a little to do with that too.

TACKLE
03-13-2011, 02:03 PM
I saw it and was highly entertained. It's rare to see a legitimate, heated disagreement on TV opposed to generic back and forth banter. I agree with vidae that it was a bit of a low blow to call Mayock a homer but I to be honest, can't say that I really think its untrue. Overall I have to agree with Baldy though. Castonzo isn't a first round talent. He's getting pushed up because of this crappy OT class. He's not even close to the same level as a guy like Brian Bulaga who was the 23rd pick last year. I don't see AC being anything more than simply a good OT in the league. Mayock has obviously put a lot more work in than Baldy, but like YFS always says, when it comes to Mayock talking about lineman, take what he has to say with a boulder of salt. Baldy is far from a draft expert, but if he's taking a strong stance on a player, at least its on an O-Lineman.

SchizophrenicBatman
03-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Hold on, I thought Mayock wasn't sticking his neck out with his picks anymore?

Also, everyone called him a homer w/r/t Ryan too

Iamcanadian
03-13-2011, 03:10 PM
Some of this stuff is ridiculous. Projecting players to a new position is always a risky business and it wasn't Mayock's opinion that caused the Jets to take him so high, the Jets themselves who by the way have become one of the better drafting teams in the NFL, took Gholston based on their own evaluation.
Even the best drafters of all time have flops on their resume, it is the nature of the business.
As for AC, he looked great at the Senior Bowl practices, not as good in the game and looked solid at the Combine. He is definitely going round 1, how high is anybodies guess, and anybody who says he isn't a 1st round talent is just off. Does it guarantee success, nothing guarantees success in the draft.
As for Baldy, he got picked on for 2 reasons, one is that both Mayock and Davis are right, RT's don't go in the top end of the draft and Carimi will play RT in the NFL. Second, Baldy attacked, I believe it was Davis's mock, for drafting an OT for the Cowboys in round 1, and then turned around and gave them one himself. What did he expect???
Will Carimi's career at RT surpass AC's, maybe but LT prospects get drafted ahead of RT's in the NFL all the time???

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 03:10 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the big time TV draft "personalities" like to put out unusual rankings and mocks that will get people's attention. It probably has a little to do with that too.

If that's what he was doing, then he has to expect others to view him as being a BC homer.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 03:13 PM
Some of this stuff is ridiculous. Projecting players to a new position is always a risky business and it wasn't Mayock's opinion that caused the Jets to take him so high, the Jets themselves who by the way have become one of the better drafting teams in the NFL, took Gholston based on their own evaluation.
Even the best drafters of all time have flops on their resume, it is the nature of the business.
As for AC, he looked great at the Senior Bowl practices, not as good in the game and looked solid at the Combine. He is definitely going round 1, how high is anybodies guess, and anybody who says he isn't a 1st round talent is just off. Does it guarantee success, nothing guarantees success in the draft.
As for Baldy, he got picked on for 2 reasons, one is that both Mayock and Davis are right, RT's don't go in the top end of the draft and Carimi will play RT in the NFL. Second, Baldy attacked, I believe it was Davis's mock, for drafting an OT for the Cowboys in round 1, and then turned around and gave them one himself. What did he expect???
Will Carimi's career at RT surpass AC's, maybe but LT prospects get drafted ahead of RT's in the NFL all the time???

If Carimi is a better player than Castonzo, he should be ranked ahead of him, period. You don't rank a player based on the position they play.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 03:15 PM
Hold on, I thought Mayock wasn't sticking his neck out with his picks anymore?

Also, everyone called him a homer w/r/t Ryan too

I don't know why. It's not the same scenario. Most reasonable people thought that Ryan was a top five talent. I know I knew that after his last minute heroics against my Hokies.

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 03:16 PM
I don't know why. It's not the same scenario. Most reasonable people thought that Ryan was a top five talent. I know I knew that after his last minute heroics against my Hokies.

While he's been a very quality pro, there were legitimate question marks with him that kept him from being an elite QB prospect in my mind. So I disagree there...but he was the best QB available in that draft and hence, got pushed up.

Iamcanadian
03-13-2011, 03:20 PM
I don't think Mayock does that, you find that done by people trying to sell a product like Kiper. Kiper puts out false mocks to attract customers and to keep his current customers interested. Anybody can tell that Mayock takes the process extremely serious and I doubt he ever puts out something he doesn't believe in.
However, Mayock has flaws and everything he says you have to weigh before accepting it. He clearly has his preferences for positions and over the years I have come to realize that when assessing 3-4 prospects, he is on inexperienced ground, because he grew up playing in a 4-3 defense and feels far more comfortable discussing 4-3 prospects.

DecisiveLeaf
03-13-2011, 03:24 PM
Scouting has one big flaw that people never talk about: comfort. We naturally feel more comfortable with players we watch more, or find out more about. I'm sure Mayock has connections at BC that gave him insight into the intangibles (work ethic, intelligence, etc.) of Castonzo. The more he found out, the more comfortable he became. Same thing happened with Matt Ryan. Mayock may not intentionally be ranking these players higher, but he's more comfortable ranking them higher because he knows more about them.

Wrathman
03-13-2011, 03:26 PM
Scouting has one big flaw that people never talk about: comfort. We naturally feel more comfortable with players we watch more, or find out more about. I'm sure Mayock has connections at BC that gave him insight into the intangibles (work ethic, intelligence, etc.) of Castonzo. The more he found out, the more comfortable he became. Same thing happened with Matt Ryan. Mayock may not intentionally be ranking these players higher, but he's more comfortable ranking them higher because he knows more about them.

Great point.

Iamcanadian
03-13-2011, 03:33 PM
If Carimi is a better player than Castonzo, he should be ranked ahead of him, period. You don't rank a player based on the position they play.

Sorry, but it is done all the time. Certain positions are considered primary position on a NFL team and certain positions are considered secondary positions, teams will severely downgrade a secondary position player in the draft which is why WR's, OG's, OC's, RT's, TE's, OLB's, ILB's and Safeties never get much thought for the # 1 overall pick. They will go in round 1 but often find themselves pushed down below lessor talents. Teams are simply desperate to fill the primary positions on their football teams, they are far more willing to gamble on later picks to fill secondary positions. Occasionally, a prospect from a secondary position, will stand out so much and get drafted pretty high but it isn't a common practice especially for highly successful teams.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 03:37 PM
While he's been a very quality pro, there were legitimate question marks with him that kept him from being an elite QB prospect in my mind. So I disagree there...but he was the best QB available in that draft and hence, got pushed up.

What questions? The only questions were about the offensive skill players he played with, which were unquestionably horrible. He had everything else including the "it" factor that Locker lacks. Mayock was not stepping out on a limb with him and he's been proven right.

On the other hand, he's claiming a guy who really isn't good at anything in particular is supposedly a better prospect than Daquan Bowers!

Iamcanadian
03-13-2011, 03:38 PM
Scouting has one big flaw that people never talk about: comfort. We naturally feel more comfortable with players we watch more, or find out more about. I'm sure Mayock has connections at BC that gave him insight into the intangibles (work ethic, intelligence, etc.) of Castonzo. The more he found out, the more comfortable he became. Same thing happened with Matt Ryan. Mayock may not intentionally be ranking these players higher, but he's more comfortable ranking them higher because he knows more about them.

This has some validity but remember, the teams that passed on Ryan are crying today while Atlanta is overjoyed.
Morris, the HC at Tampa Bay coached Freeman at Kansas St. and obviously felt comfortable recommending him to his team while most teams questioned his 1st round talent.
So being comfortable isn't always a negative, sometimes it is a strong positive in the drafting profession.

Iamcanadian
03-13-2011, 03:43 PM
What questions? The only questions were about the offensive skill players he played with, which were unquestionably horrible. He had everything else including the "it" factor that Locker lacks. Mayock was not stepping out on a limb with him and he's been proven right.

On the other hand, he's claiming a guy who really isn't good at anything in particular is supposedly a better prospect than Daquan Bowers!

Bowers isn't dropping because of talent, he is dropping because scouts and GM's are concerned about his injury. Bowers said he would be 100% by the combine, then he said he would be 100% by his pro day, he wasn't and now teams are beginning to wonder if his injury isn't more serious than 1st let on.
That is why he is dropping, nobody is questioning his talent.

thebow305
03-13-2011, 03:45 PM
Some of this stuff is ridiculous. Projecting players to a new position is always a risky business and it wasn't Mayock's opinion that caused the Jets to take him so high, the Jets themselves who by the way have become one of the better drafting teams in the NFL, took Gholston based on their own evaluation.
Even the best drafters of all time have flops on their resume, it is the nature of the business.
As for AC, he looked great at the Senior Bowl practices, not as good in the game and looked solid at the Combine. He is definitely going round 1, how high is anybodies guess, and anybody who says he isn't a 1st round talent is just off. Does it guarantee success, nothing guarantees success in the draft.
As for Baldy, he got picked on for 2 reasons, one is that both Mayock and Davis are right, RT's don't go in the top end of the draft and Carimi will play RT in the NFL. Second, Baldy attacked, I believe it was Davis's mock, for drafting an OT for the Cowboys in round 1, and then turned around and gave them one himself. What did he expect???
Will Carimi's career at RT surpass AC's, maybe but LT prospects get drafted ahead of RT's in the NFL all the time???

This is true, but you never know. Do I think Carimi is a RT first and will be a very good, if not great RT? Yes. But do I also think he could be a solid starting LT in the league? Yes. I feel almost the same way about Castonzo. I don't feel like either are going to be dominating LT's in the league but could be very good RT's. But hey, these were the same things being said about Jake Long. Exactly. And we all know how that turned out.

The only OT prospect in this class I could see us talking about 5 or 6 years down the line as a dominating LT in the NFL is Tyron Smith. Period.

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Sorry, but it is done all the time. Certain positions are considered primary position on a NFL team and certain positions are considered secondary positions, teams will severely downgrade a secondary position player in the draft which is why WR's, OG's, OC's, RT's, TE's, OLB's, ILB's and Safeties never get much thought for the # 1 overall pick. They will go in round 1 but often find themselves pushed down below lessor talents. Teams are simply desperate to fill the primary positions on their football teams, they are far more willing to gamble on later picks to fill secondary positions. Occasionally, a prospect from a secondary position, will stand out so much and get drafted pretty high but it isn't a common practice especially for highly successful teams.

This is definitely evidenced if you look at even the top 5 picks of any recent draft. QBs, LTs and DL are overwhelmingly prevalent.

2010 - QB DT DT OT S (4/5)
2009 - QB OT DE LB QB (4/5)
2008 - OT DE QB RB DT (4/5)
2007 - QB WR OT DE OT (4/5)
2006 - DE RB* QB OT LB (3/5)

*-Reggie Bush who was supposed to revolutionize the position.

You have to go back to 2005 to see a majority of any other position in the top 5. (And almost the entire top 5 of that draft has underwhelmed....a good year or two for any one of them at most.)

Regardless, 19 of the 25 top 5 picks of the last 5 drafts, including all of the first overall picks, have come from that QB, LT, DL group. It has definite priority over any other positions.

Now, back to the main argument....I don't really like Castonzo and I wouldn't draft him early. I watched him play several times during the season and came away disappointed each time. He looked particularly bad against Virginia Tech where it looked like he was playing with bricks on his feet. I also saw him get outright outleveraged and bull rushed by the 50 pounds lighter Steven Friday...not a good sign.

I'd draft Carimi over him, not because I value a RT that highly, but because I think he's the better player regardless of LT or RT...

Iamcanadian
03-13-2011, 03:53 PM
This is true, but you never know. Do I think Carimi is a RT first and will be a very good, if not great RT? Yes. But do I also think he could be a solid starting LT in the league? Yes. I feel almost the same way about Castonzo. I don't feel like either are going to be dominating LT's in the league but could be very good RT's. But hey, these were the same things being said about Jake Long. Exactly. And we all know how that turned out.

Not exactly, Long was ranked far higher than either AC or Carimi and while some draftniks questioned Long's ability to play LT, obviously the pro scouts and GM's thought he could. AC and Carimi certainly have higher question marks.

The only OT prospect in this class I could see us talking about 5 or 6 years down the line as a dominating LT in the NFL is Tyron Smith. Period.

I agree that Tyron Smith is the only LT prospect in this draft possibly worth a top 10 pick but until he works out, I'll hold my evaluation of his talent level.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 04:42 PM
This is true, but you never know. Do I think Carimi is a RT first and will be a very good, if not great RT? Yes. But do I also think he could be a solid starting LT in the league? Yes. I feel almost the same way about Castonzo. I don't feel like either are going to be dominating LT's in the league but could be very good RT's. But hey, these were the same things being said about Jake Long. Exactly. And we all know how that turned out.

The only OT prospect in this class I could see us talking about 5 or 6 years down the line as a dominating LT in the NFL is Tyron Smith. Period.

I agree TOTALLY. This OT is so overrated it's driving me crazy. Most of these guys are NOT, or rather I should say, SHOULD NOT be first round prospects!! I agree about Smith, but wow, this skinny injured junior is the guy heading the class?? Really?

dannyz
03-13-2011, 04:42 PM
Mayock is stupid. Didn't he have McCoy rated over Suh? I am pretty sure he knew Suh was better and was just trying to get a reaction or he really is stupid.

Black Bolt
03-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Mayock is stupid. Didn't he have McCoy rated over Suh? I am pretty sure he knew Suh was better and was just trying to get a reaction or he really is stupid.

He was ridiculous last year about McCoy and his mystic first step. What a JOKE.

BeerBaron
03-13-2011, 04:47 PM
I agree TOTALLY. This OT is so overrated it's driving me crazy. Most of these guys are NOT, or rather I should say, SHOULD NOT be first round prospects!! I agree about Smith, but wow, this skinny injured junior is the guy heading the class?? Really?

He was up to "a cut" 307 at the combine. Excellent athleticism and long arms only further heighten his ceiling.

I still have some questions with him, but I'll be surprised if he's not the first OT drafted.

PossibleCabbage
03-13-2011, 05:51 PM
I agree TOTALLY. This OT is so overrated it's driving me crazy. Most of these guys are NOT, or rather I should say, SHOULD NOT be first round prospects!! I agree about Smith, but wow, this skinny injured junior is the guy heading the class?? Really?

Well, much like the QB class, the OT class this year will most likely yield some good players, but there are lot of question marks and nobody has really any idea who those players are going to be. There's less certainty towards the tops of those positions than I can honestly remember.