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Bootland27
03-22-2007, 02:14 PM
David Carr. Give up one of the 5th round picks, low risk-low reward.

IMO, his failures were a byproduct of the franchise he played for, their management's decision making (passing on bush), and last but not least the o-line. Basically, everything that kitna went through last year behind our line, multiply that by 5 which gives the abuse he took in his time with the texans.

This also eliminates the need to take a QB in the 2nd round this year, which they can use to address other needs on defense.

ironman4579
03-22-2007, 02:38 PM
Except Kitna was sacked more times last year than Carr, and was far more effective IMO. Carr is honestly probably worse than Harrington. Just say no to Carr!

P-L
03-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Was it really Houston's fault that Carr was so bad? Was it a coincidence that once Carr was benched for Sage Rosenfels the sacks started to drop and the production from the quarterback position started to go up?

Bootland27
03-22-2007, 02:46 PM
Except Kitna was sacked more times last year than Carr, and was far more effective IMO.

Carr has been sacked the most in the last 5 years. You're only talking about 1 year for Kitna.

Carr is honestly probably worse than Harrington. Just say no to Carr!

What makes you say that? Yeah he is a project but I wouldn't mind if he sat on the bench and let Martz develop him for a year.

TacticaLion
03-22-2007, 03:01 PM
No. Don't waste the 5th round pick.

I'd rather have Stanton/Edwards over Carr.

ironman4579
03-22-2007, 03:24 PM
Look here's the thing. Everyone says Carr has no line, and no rushing attack, that's why he sucks. In 2006 the Texans averaged 105.4 YPG. In '05 they averaged 113.5 YPG. in '04 117.6 PYG. In '03 103.2 YPG. That is clearly better than anything the Lions have done, and better than plenty of teams in the league for most of those years. It seems that his linemen can run block well enough. Carr holds on to the ball too long is the problem.

As far as Carr vs Harrington goes, let's look at something. First, Carr had Domanick Davis(Williams or whatever) who went over 1000 yards in '03 and '04 and had over 900 yards in '05. Harrington had one 1000 yard back, Kevin Jones in '04, and coincidentally that was the year he threw for 3047 yards and had 19 TD's to 12 picks. Carr Had Andre Johnson for a total of 61 career games. Harrington had Roy Williams for a total of 27 games. And don't even get me started on Charles Rogers. From '02 to '05(4 seasons) their numbers are very similiar.

Carr
58% comp %
2656 yards per season
12 TD's per season
13.3 INT's per season

Harrington
55% comp %
2561 yards per season
15 TD's per season
15.5 INT's per season

And Harrington started 4 less games over that span. Sure Harrington MIGHT have had a marginally better line than Carr at that point. Carr also had a better supporting cast over most of his games than Harrington did, with Williams, Rogers, and Jones always being injured.

Am I saying Harrington was good? No. But I am saying that David Carr is no better, and would be a complete waste of a player on this team.

DeMonikk1
03-22-2007, 03:27 PM
Why give up anything for a player who has ZERO confidence, a fragile psyche, and will be released anyway??? Wasting a pick would be foolish...Kitna is the stopgap, and if they don't get brady Quinn this year, look at Brian Brohm next year.

TacticaLion
03-22-2007, 04:27 PM
Look here's the thing. Everyone says Carr has no line, and no rushing attack, that's why he sucks. In 2006 the Texans averaged 105.4 YPG. In '05 they averaged 113.5 YPG. in '04 117.6 PYG. In '03 103.2 YPG. That is clearly better than anything the Lions have done, and better than plenty of teams in the league for most of those years. It seems that his linemen can run block well enough. Carr holds on to the ball too long is the problem.

As far as Carr vs Harrington goes, let's look at something. First, Carr had Domanick Davis(Williams or whatever) who went over 1000 yards in '03 and '04 and had over 900 yards in '05. Harrington had one 1000 yard back, Kevin Jones in '04, and coincidentally that was the year he threw for 3047 yards and had 19 TD's to 12 picks. Carr Had Andre Johnson for a total of 61 career games. Harrington had Roy Williams for a total of 27 games. And don't even get me started on Charles Rogers. From '02 to '05(4 seasons) their numbers are very similiar.

Carr
58% comp %
2656 yards per season
12 TD's per season
13.3 INT's per season

Harrington
55% comp %
2561 yards per season
15 TD's per season
15.5 INT's per season

And Harrington started 4 less games over that span. Sure Harrington MIGHT have had a marginally better line than Carr at that point. Carr also had a better supporting cast over most of his games than Harrington did, with Williams, Rogers, and Jones always being injured.

Am I saying Harrington was good? No. But I am saying that David Carr is no better, and would be a complete waste of a player on this team.
Ironman has won this thread. Good job, Ironman.

Instead of drafting Carr... if we want a below average QB THAT bad... we should just sign Harrington. He was cut, right?

Scotty D
03-22-2007, 07:25 PM
I don't think you can use run blocking in an argument on how well and offensive line protects a QB.

TacticaLion
03-22-2007, 07:27 PM
I don't think you can use run blocking in an argument on how well and offensive line protects a QB.Run support helps a QB tremendously. If you can't run the ball, your opponent only needs to stop the pass.

ironman4579
03-22-2007, 09:55 PM
I don't think you can use run blocking in an argument on how well and offensive line protects a QB.

I think you certainly can. A good running game slows down the rush just that much more and gets the defense back on their heels. All I'm saying is, watch David Carr. He holds the ball at least 5-6 seconds on every play. I've even heard ex Houston lineman say the same thing. They hold their blocks for like 8 seconds, the guy gets by them, and they look back and he still has the ball. I realize that can be a function of his receivers not getting open, but the guy is just not a good QB. And I maintain that he is no better than Harrington, and people just try and give the guy the benefit of the doubt because of the amount of sacks he's taken.

Bootland27
03-22-2007, 10:25 PM
There are some flaws in ironman's argument, but I think Martz can mold him into a decent QB. Remember when he came here he liked Joey and thought that he could have success in this system. In the end, Joey didn't wanna be here and I don't think he'd been successful cause he needed a change of scenery. If Carr came here and they improved the o-line and made it a decent unit, I think it could work. He would have better WRs here than in houston

You can get him for a 5th or 6th round pick. You know millen's not gonna draft Marques Colston or Maurice Jones Drew or someone like that in the 5th/6th round. He might even get released and we can sign him cheap. If he doesn't work out whats the worst thing that can happen? Maybe Marinelli losing his job. There are QBs that come out every year in the draft. If you know he's not the answer, draft a QB next year.

ironman4579
03-23-2007, 09:52 AM
There are some flaws in ironman's argument, but I think Martz can mold him into a decent QB. Remember when he came here he liked Joey and thought that he could have success in this system. In the end, Joey didn't wanna be here and I don't think he'd been successful cause he needed a change of scenery. If Carr came here and they improved the o-line and made it a decent unit, I think it could work. He would have better WRs here than in houston

You can get him for a 5th or 6th round pick. You know millen's not gonna draft Marques Colston or Maurice Jones Drew or someone like that in the 5th/6th round. He might even get released and we can sign him cheap. If he doesn't work out whats the worst thing that can happen? Maybe Marinelli losing his job. There are QBs that come out every year in the draft. If you know he's not the answer, draft a QB next year.

I disagree. He had Andre Johnson, who so far has done alot more than Roy Williams has(even though I like Roy more), and you can say what you want about Furrey, I like the season he had last year, but he's not really any better than some of the guys they've had in Texas.

The point being, you might be able to use that 5th round pick in combination with some other picks to move up in other rounds and get someone you actually want/need, rather than a QB that's never done anything in the league. And besides, Martz has said numerous times that he really likes McCown. It just doesn't make sense to me to either pick up a huge contract through a trade to sit on the bench, or sign a guy to what would probably be at least a decent sized contract if he was cut to sit on the bench.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 10:36 AM
I disagree. He had Andre Johnson, who so far has done alot more than Roy Williams has(even though I like Roy more), and you can say what you want about Furrey, I like the season he had last year, but he's not really any better than some of the guys they've had in Texas.

The point being, you might be able to use that 5th round pick in combination with some other picks to move up in other rounds and get someone you actually want/need, rather than a QB that's never done anything in the league. And besides, Martz has said numerous times that he really likes McCown. It just doesn't make sense to me to either pick up a huge contract through a trade to sit on the bench, or sign a guy to what would probably be at least a decent sized contract if he was cut to sit on the bench.I agree for the most part. Comparing QBs in different situations is always risky, but I agree that I'd rather take a different QB. We've got the aging vet (Kitna), we've got the "been-in-the-league, trying-to-prove-himself" gunslinger (McCown) and we've got the "I'm better than these guys, and i'll prove it" youngster (Orlovsky). If we took ANYONE, I'd want Edwards/Stanton... the promising project QB... NOT another player that's looking for a second chance.

Did any of that make sense? I dunno... made sense to me.

ironman4579
03-23-2007, 10:42 AM
I agree for the most part. Comparing QBs in different situations is always risky, but I agree that I'd rather take a different QB. We've got the aging vet (Kitna), we've got the "been-in-the-league, trying-to-prove-himself" gunslinger (McCown) and we've got the "I'm better than these guys, and i'll prove it" youngster (Orlovsky). If we took ANYONE, I'd want Edwards/Stanton... the promising project QB... NOT another player that's looking for a second chance.

Did any of that make sense? I dunno... made sense to me.

It made sense to me. We have basically 2 guys already "looking for a second chance" (Kitna, McCown), do we really need ANOTHER guy that's been marginal at best his entire career that's looking for a new home?

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 10:47 AM
It made sense to me. We have basically 2 guys already "looking for a second chance" (Kitna, McCown), do we really need ANOTHER guy that's been marginal at best his entire career that's looking for a new home?Exactly. I think McCown will leave before he becomes the "starter" for the Lions, but would like to see a youngster in this draft and Orlovsky battle for the job when Kitna is gone.

If we can build the OLine and continue to improve the running game, it should be a great situation for them.

Addict
03-23-2007, 03:43 PM
Why give up anything for a player who has ZERO confidence, a fragile psyche, and will be released anyway??? Wasting a pick would be foolish...Kitna is the stopgap, and if they don't get brady Quinn this year, look at Brian Brohm next year.

wow. Is there a way to man-hug and say "I love you" without giving off a homosexual vibe?

PooPooCakes
03-23-2007, 08:36 PM
Carr and Domanick Williams were cut.

TacticaLion
03-23-2007, 10:06 PM
wow. Is there a way to man-hug and say "I love you" without giving off a homosexual vibe?

There's a way to do it... but not a way to *say* it.

Haha. Right?

I can't believe they passed on Leinart, Young and Bush... and have cut the players they claimed solidified those positions.

Incredible.

DeMonikk1
03-24-2007, 06:30 AM
wow. Is there a way to man-hug and say "I love you" without giving off a homosexual vibe?


Hahaha, I assume there is, but let's just leave it alone...

DeMonikk1
03-24-2007, 06:32 AM
There's a way to do it... but not a way to *say* it.

Haha. Right?

I can't believe they passed on Leinart, Young and Bush... and have cut the players they claimed solidified those positions.

Incredible.

They are starting over completely it seems. Houston is even more poorly ran than Detroit right now IMO. And THAT'S saying something..

TacticaLion
03-24-2007, 10:28 AM
They are starting over completely it seems. Houston is even more poorly ran than Detroit right now IMO. And THAT'S saying something..Crazyness...

Not much more to say than that.

Addict
03-24-2007, 10:50 AM
Hahaha, I assume there is, but let's just leave it alone...

Let's.

In other regards. Here's my view on how poorly run the Texans are:

Imagine a very large ocean, and then us standing at the bottom of that ocean. After all, we're not a franchise known for sound decisions, well if one would take a large digging machine, and dig about.. say 200 yards down, you'd find the texans, sitting there crying 'why did we draft Carr? Why did we pass on Bush? Why do we suck so bad?'.

In other words, the Texans are adding a whole new level to sucking.

jag
03-24-2007, 11:39 AM
Since he's a FA would you guys consider giving him a small 3 year deal and see if Martz can mold the guy into a decent starter?

Aard
03-24-2007, 11:47 AM
Since he's a FA would you guys consider giving him a small 3 year deal and see if Martz can mold the guy into a decent starter?

No.

David Carr and Joey Harrington are too closely linked already; the Lions are better off without any reminders of that failed experiment. Carr -- even on the Detroit sidelines -- would cast Joey's shadow everywhere he went.

Let's not resummon that exorcised ghost.

Iamcanadian
03-24-2007, 11:59 AM
I agree for the most part. Comparing QBs in different situations is always risky, but I agree that I'd rather take a different QB. We've got the aging vet (Kitna), we've got the "been-in-the-league, trying-to-prove-himself" gunslinger (McCown) and we've got the "I'm better than these guys, and i'll prove it" youngster (Orlovsky). If we took ANYONE, I'd want Edwards/Stanton... the promising project QB... NOT another player that's looking for a second chance.

Did any of that make sense? I dunno... made sense to me.

I completely agree with you. Edwards/Stanton offer far more promise than Carr. Harrington who by the way was recently added to the Toronto football teams protected list, teams in Canada do that when they think a NFL player's career is over but think he might fit in the CFL. No doubt Carr is headed in the same direction.

Addict
03-24-2007, 12:02 PM
I completely agree with you. Edwards/Stanton offer far more promise than Carr. Harrington who by the way was recently added to the Toronto football teams protected list, teams in Canada do that when they think a NFL player's career is over but think he might fit in the CFL. No doubt Carr is headed in the same direction.

Is Carr honestly that bad? I always thought that if they gave him a half-decent o-line he could do some good!

ironman4579
03-24-2007, 02:44 PM
I've already said my piece on Carr. However, I'm going to say right now that behind basically the same line Carr had, Schaub will be sacked half as much as Carr was. And if Carr starts somewhere next year, that team will immediately give up double the sacks they did the previous year. He just can't read defences well and holds the ball too long. They were even talking about on Late Hits on Sirius last night. They were thinking probably half the sacks he took were actually him just holding the ball too long.

Mythos
03-24-2007, 03:02 PM
I've already said my piece on Carr. However, I'm going to say right now that behind basically the same line Carr had, Schaub will be sacked half as much as Carr was. And if Carr starts somewhere next year, that team will immediately give up double the sacks they did the previous year. He just can't read defences well and holds the ball too long. They were even talking about on Late Hits on Sirius last night. They were thinking probably half the sacks he took were actually him just holding the ball too long.

Completely agree. He sees a defender and goes fetal. Joey was different in that his reflex was to get rid of the ball no matter what. It didn't matter if the receiver was covered, near the first down marker, or even looking, the ball was coming out. Kitna has nowhere near the athletic talent those two had, but he stands in there like a champ.