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D-Unit
04-12-2011, 03:06 PM
Eh, it's a slow time for NFL news. Thought this might spur some discussion... maybe... maybe not.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/12/parcells-kicks-himself-for-drafting-pat-white-picking-long-over-ryan/

Parcells kicks himself for drafting Pat White, picking Long over Ryan
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 12, 2011, 12:18 PM EDT
Getty ImagesAs Bill Parcells looks back on his time running the Dolphins, he can’t help but second-guess himself over some draft picks gone wrong. And no pick looks worse in hindsight than the decision to take Pat White in the second round of the 2009 draft.

“We violated our principles,” Parcells told Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald, in reference to picking White. “He just wasn’t a prototypical quarterback pick. He was a great college player, and we let that color our judgment.”

Parcells thought White had the potential to be a game-changing player in the wildcat offense, but looking back on it, he thinks the Dolphins should have been looking for a pro-style passer, not an all-purpose athlete.

And the best pro-style passer to enter the league in the three years that Parcells was running the Dolphins’ war room, Matt Ryan, is one player Parcells wishes he would have drafted. Asked if the Dolphins should he have picked Ryan instead of offensive tackle Jake Long in 2008, Parcells said, “maybe, we should have.”

Although Long has turned into a fine tackle, there’s no “maybe” about it: If the Dolphins had taken Ryan first overall, they’d be a franchise in much better shape right now.


Did Parcells leaving Dallas to go to Miami tarnish his legacy?

ryno626
04-12-2011, 03:12 PM
Miami was in a tough situation in 08...Take Matt Ryan and have a terrible offensive line that wouldn't be able to protect him or take Jake Long and miss out on a franchise QB. But yea the Pat White decision was absolutely terrible

K Train
04-12-2011, 03:15 PM
long was the right pick....hell at the time most people thought that dorsey was the right pick for atlanta.

matt ryan is good but hes not exactly a world beater, not something to kick yourself over

i do still think brady quinn was the right pick over ginn though, i think we may have gotten to see a different side of quinn if he went there

JBCX
04-12-2011, 03:35 PM
You never take an offensive lineman over a potential franchise quarterback unless you already have a franchise quarterback in place.

In fact, you should never take ANY position in the top 5 except for quarterback unless you already have a franchise quarterback in place.

What kind of position would the Rams be in right now if they had taken Suh, as good as he is and will be, over Sam Bradford? Picking top 3 again, and again, and again.

No position is as important as QB in football. The #1 priority of every GM in the league should be to acquire that franchise QB.

FTRWRTR
04-12-2011, 03:46 PM
I like ryan alot and am so glad to see him in Atlanta. That said if you have a crappy o-line it does you no good to draft a qb because he's going to get killed and lose his confidence ala' david carr. Long was the right choice...I knew pat white was a terrible pick well before they made it.

Pat Sims 90
04-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Always a Fan of taking a Franchise QB. The Rule draft has always been if u don't have a Franchise QB and there is one there take him. Solid OL can be found in later rounds.

dolphinfan2k5
04-12-2011, 04:06 PM
Ryan would suck in Miami, we wouldn't have developed him properly.

detroit4life
04-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Its too easy to look back and second guess when it comes to the draft. I liked the long pick and still think it made sense at the time. The fact that ryan is now a very good franchise QB now doesn't mean it would have worked out that way is he went to Miami

ChiFan24
04-12-2011, 04:29 PM
Ryan would suck in Miami, we wouldn't have developed him properly.

Doesn't seem like he needed much developing.

D-Unit
04-12-2011, 04:37 PM
I agree with those who said to take the franchise QB first. You can address OL in FA/Trade. You can't do that as easily in trying to get a franchise QB.

That said, Parcells has prided himself on finding and coaching up QBs or using ones that most don't believe in. ...old fogies...Pennington, Testaverde, & Bledsoe were his go to guys. I bet at the time he convinced himself that Chad Henne was the next Tom Brady. Hell, he thought that when he had Drew Henson!

Halsey
04-12-2011, 06:16 PM
People who understand football know that finding a franchise QB is more important than finding the guy who protects the QBs blind side. Parcells obviously didn't think Ryan was going to be a franchise QB at the time, but it's a joke to argue the Dolphins made the right pick now that we see he is. The idea that you build an offensive line first is a farce. You'll be building for years and passing on QBs over and over while waiting to have the perfect line. Ever notice how offensive lines always seem to play better with a franchise QB leading the offense. The Falcons were considered to have a poor offensive line before Ryan. The Dolphins could have drafted Ryan and then traded back into the first for a LT, like the Falcons did.

bam bam
04-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Did Parcells leaving Dallas to go to Miami tarnish his legacy?

Do you remember the 2007 Dolphins?

If the 2010 Dolphins were to play the 2007 Dolphins, would you not say the 2010 Dolphins would blow them out? He came to the Dolphins and left them a much better team, so no I wouldn't say his legacy is tarnished.

Saints-Tigers
04-12-2011, 08:07 PM
Apparently every average starter is a franchise QB, and they should all be picked over every position, no matter what.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
04-12-2011, 08:27 PM
Matt Ryan isn't that good yet.

Halsey
04-12-2011, 08:32 PM
Yeah, Ryan is horrible. He's been in the league 3 years and the Falcons have had back-to-back-to back winning seasons after never even having back-to-back wining seasons previous. I'm sure the Falcons are doing that despite their horrible QB play...lol.

CrankthatCrabtree
04-12-2011, 08:37 PM
They said average. Not Horrible. Yay for reading comprehension

GoRavens
04-12-2011, 08:40 PM
Matt Ryan isn't that good yet.

http://files.sharenator.com/are_you_kidding_me_Holy_shitkill_me_now_Were_being _taken_over_by_tasteless_tweens-s401x324-110332-580.png

Halsey
04-12-2011, 08:40 PM
They said average. Not Horrible. Yay for reading comprehension

If Ryan is average, name the 15 or so starters who are better. I got a good laugh the last time people made a fool of themselves trying it. Names like Kyle Orton and David Garrard were used. :D

Caulibflower
04-12-2011, 08:47 PM
Matt Ryan is like Trent Green. Good for winning seasons, will make some Pro Bowls, will be thought of as a franchise QB, but will need a good team to win a Super Bowl. He's not a transcendent talent by any means, he's just good.

Halsey
04-12-2011, 08:49 PM
Yep, Ryan is the rare QB who needs help from the team around him to win.

Caulibflower
04-12-2011, 08:52 PM
Way to ignore the point. There are QBs who can't win Super Bowls. Ryan isn't one of them, but he's not going to carry a team there, either.

Complex
04-12-2011, 08:55 PM
Matt Ryan is not a franchise QB just because he is not as bad Kerry Collins, it does not mean he is a great QB.

Grizzlegom
04-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Ryan would suck in Miami, we wouldn't have developed him properly.

This, this, this, and more this. If Pennington had stayed healthy for two years in a row for once in his career we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I still think Jake was the right choice despite Ryan's success. We had no receivers, no offensive line, and our defense was old. Ryan didn't show in college that he can carry a team without a supporting cast to elite status and he hasn't shown it in the NFL either. Sure, Ryan is pretty darn good in Atlanta but we didn't have Roddy White and Michael Turner waiting for him. If he came to Miami he'd probably have had a career full of glimpses of promise but wouldn't have put up the kind of numbers he has in Atlanta and who knows how things would have fell. Hindsight may be 20-20 but I really don't think it applies in this situation. Now if we're talking Brady Quinn vs. Ted Ginn...

Besides, Parcells didn't exactly come out and say it was a mistake, he just said maybe it would have been a better selection. Top 2 LT vs. top 10 QB. Its a legit question, but I don't think its simple to just proclaim the QB and call it a day.

Ness
04-13-2011, 03:49 AM
I like ryan alot and am so glad to see him in Atlanta. That said if you have a crappy o-line it does you no good to draft a qb because he's going to get killed and lose his confidence ala' david carr. Long was the right choice...I knew pat white was a terrible pick well before they made it.

It depends. Sometimes a terrible quarterback can make an offensive line look worse than they actually are. When Matt Ryan came to Atlanta, I think they had the majority of the same offensive line. In any case the sacks dramatically dropped in his first season.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
04-13-2011, 12:12 PM
http://files.sharenator.com/are_you_kidding_me_Holy_shitkill_me_now_Were_being _taken_over_by_tasteless_tweens-s401x324-110332-580.png

He just had his first good season after a pretty meh sophomore season. Along with finishing very low in yards per attempt this season i am not sold on him getting a team deep into the playoffs yet. Like i said he is not THAT good yet.

umphrey
04-13-2011, 12:14 PM
That's so retrospect and his decision looked good at the time and even for awhile later since Long has been to pro bowls. I think he's just kicking himself for what he probably thought was a noob mistake: thinking you can get away with relying on a college offense in the NFL.

FlyingElvis
04-13-2011, 12:36 PM
The writer of this article is taking some liberties in using that title. Parcells said nothing of regret, kicking himself, or even that he should have taken Ryan. In fact, the only actual quote in regards to Ryan is likely bastardized by adding a comma where one should not be.

"maybe, we should have" is quite different from "maybe we should have" and we don't know for sure which of the two Parcells intended.

Journalism is dead.

keylime_5
04-13-2011, 12:41 PM
long was the right pick....hell at the time most people thought that dorsey was the right pick for atlanta.

matt ryan is good but hes not exactly a world beater, not something to kick yourself over

i do still think brady quinn was the right pick over ginn though, i think we may have gotten to see a different side of quinn if he went there

Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, and it's not like Jake Long isn't one of the 2 or 3 best left tackles in the game. Ryan had a lot more risk. Though picking Ryan would've filled their QB need, as it is that left tackle is much easier position to fill than franchise QB any given year.

Quinn was/is awful and if McDaniels couldn't get a thing out of him I doubt anyone else will. At least Ginn is a servicable return man. Quinn will be out of the league in a couple years. Dolphins shouldn't have taken Ginn at #9, but they were damn smart for seeing that Quinn was no good.

FTRWRTR
04-13-2011, 01:31 PM
It depends. Sometimes a terrible quarterback can make an offensive line look worse than they actually are. When Matt Ryan came to Atlanta, I think they had the majority of the same offensive line. In any case the sacks dramatically dropped in his first season.That Ryan pick gets all the attention, and I understand why, but that year the falcons traded back into the first and took a LT, Sam Baker, and he was a significant addition to that o-line.

Pil
04-13-2011, 01:33 PM
QBs better than Ryan in no specific order.

Rivers
Brady
Manning
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Romo
Brees
Freeman
Cutler
Stafford
Vick
Schaub

Grizzlegom
04-13-2011, 02:14 PM
Quinn was/is awful and if McDaniels couldn't get a thing out of him I doubt anyone else will. At least Ginn is a servicable return man. Quinn will be out of the league in a couple years. Dolphins shouldn't have taken Ginn at #9, but they were damn smart for seeing that Quinn was no good.

Just regarding this part, we actually didn't view Quinn as no good, we liked him, just liked him slightly more than John Beck as opposed to Ginn who we thought was some epicly awesome return man who might also be a decent receiver. Turns out we were right, Quinn was slightly better than John Beck, just turns out they were all awful.

niel89
04-13-2011, 02:30 PM
QBs better than Ryan in no specific order.

Rivers
Brady
Manning
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Romo
Brees
Freeman
Cutler
Stafford
Vick
Schaub

Ill give you the bolded ones, with more of a debate on Freeman and Schaub. I honestly don't know where Romo sits. Stafford needs to be on the field before he gets to be on any list.

GoRavens
04-13-2011, 02:41 PM
Tony Romo, Jay Cutler, and Matt Stafford are not better than Matt Ryan. You must be taking crazy pills.

Bengalsrocket
04-13-2011, 02:51 PM
Tony Romo, Jay Cutler, and Matt Stafford are not better than Matt Ryan. You must be taking crazy pills.

Yea I agree with this. At worst, Ryan is equal to Romo right now. But honestly, he's just smarter with the ball on a way less talented offense than Romo.

D-Unit
04-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Yea I agree with this. At worst, Ryan is equal to Romo right now. But honestly, he's just smarter with the ball on a way less talented offense than Romo.
Romo has had talented weapons, but his OL has not been good. I'd take ATL's OL over Dallas' any day.

FTRWRTR
04-13-2011, 03:10 PM
Romo has had talented weapons, but his OL has not been good. I'd take ATL's OL over Dallas' any day.If we're talking ff where it's all about stats i'd want romo. But as a NFL qb where winning is the most important thing give me Ryan.

Grizzlegom
04-13-2011, 03:17 PM
One last thought: Short term, Miami ABSOLUTELY made the correct choice. No way does the Phins make the playoffs in 2008 without Chad Pennington at the helm and no way does Pennington stay healthy without Jake Long blocking for him. Had Pennington stayed healthy for two years in a row for once, and Henne wasn't thrust into starting sooner than we wanted, we might not even be having this conversation. Fact is, there is little guarantee that Matt Ryan would be half the QB he has become had he been a Dolphin. His top receiver would have been Greg Camarillo, not Roddy White. He would have an offensive line with Vernon Carey at LT. He still would have had a strong running game and decent defense but that doesn't necessarily translate into success.

You hear it all the time that the situation a player is drafted into plays a MAJOR role in that players' success. Miami and Atlanta were two very different situations so its not simple to just say move this player here and VOILA! SAME RESULTS!!

JBCX
04-13-2011, 03:18 PM
QBs better than Ryan in no specific order.

Rivers
Brady
Manning
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Romo
Brees
Freeman
Cutler
Stafford
Vick
Schaub

QBs far, far worse than Ryan in no specific order:

Every QB on the Miami Dolphins roster during and after the 2008 draft (to this day, too).

keylime_5
04-13-2011, 03:27 PM
area cutler and stafford really better than ryan? no.

Grizzlegom
04-13-2011, 03:32 PM
QBs far, far worse than Ryan in no specific order:

Every QB on the Miami Dolphins roster during and after the 2008 draft (to this day, too).

Eh, Pennington's 2008 is on par with Ryan's best season (2010). Only difference is TDs but Pennington didn't have Roddy White or Gonzo, handed the ball to Ricky/Ronnie for TDs instead.

BigBanger
04-13-2011, 03:47 PM
Top 2 LT vs. top 10 QB. Its a legit question, but I don't think its simple to just proclaim the QB and call it a day.
I think it is that simple and I think this case is like a precedent where teams are going to use for comparisons. Not too long ago people said, "If you got a franchise LT and franchise QB sitting on the board, then you take the better player." Not anymore. If you think the QB is a playoff QB that will win you games and give your team a chance to make a Super Bowl, then you take him. The LT is not going to do that. I think Jake Long is a better NFL player and I thought he was a better prospect, but if you don't have a QB, you draft the QB. It really is that simple. Walter Jones never won a Super Bowl. Willie Roaf. Anthony Munoz. You can have the best linemen and be a complete loser. You have a good QB and you have a perennial playoff caliber team.

The Dolphins allowed their second round pick help decide their first round pick. They said, "We can get Pat White and base our offense entirely around the WildCat, so lets go with Jake Long in the 1st." That should never happen and I hate when I constantly hear people in the media talk about a team passing up on a QB in round 1 because there is a QB in round 2. That logic and rational never works. If you got a chance to draft a QB and you think he's going to be Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Josh Freeman or Ben Roethlisberger, then you take them. Those guys win. They might not have the eye popping stats, but they win.

Last year Matt Ryan's stats looked like this:

16 Starts (13 W - 3 L) 3,705 yards (231.6 per gm), 28 TDs, 9 INT, 62.5%, 91 QB Rating.

Ranks in NFL

Pass yards - 9th
TDs - Tied for 6th (Rodgers)
INTs - 7th best among starters with 10+ starts
Completion % - 12th
QB Rating - 11th
Wins - 2nd

I would take Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger and Drew Brees over Matt Ryan... That's it.

Schaub is all stats and no wins. Freeman has to do repeat his success. Romo has all the talent to win games and has a competent coach now, so he should improve and take his game to the next level. Stafford has got to stay on the field. Joe Flacco is frustrating as hell. Matt Cassel might be legit, but probably nothing more than a game manager. Eli Manning has to reduce the turnovers. Ditto for Jay Cutler (and he needs some receivers and actual talent on offense, maybe an offensive line too). Sam Bradford will probably make a strong push for the top 10 next year.

There's a bunch of good QBs in the NFL right now. Being a top 10, or fringe top 10 QB in the NFL right now is still a pretty damn good QB. Being an elite LT, that's great, but Joe Thomas, Ryan Clady, Jake Long, Michael Roos are all on losers or average teams. And those may be the 4 best LTs in football.

I have an interesting list of LTs:

Max Starks (0 Pro Bowls)
Jermon Bushrod (0 Pro Bowls)
Chad Clifton (2 Pro Bowls)
Marvel Smith (1 Pro Bowl)
Matt Light (3 Pro Bowls)
David Diehl (0 Pro Bowls)
Tarik Glenn (3 Pro Bowls)
Roman Oben (0 Pro Bowls)

That is the list of LTs that were on Super Bowl winning teams over the last 10 years.


The QBs that won the Super Bowl over the last 10 years:

Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger (Twice)
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady (Three times)
Eli Manning
Brad Johnson.
Really, only one QB does not fit in that group.


The QBs who lost the Super Bowl over the last 10 years:

Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Kurt Warner (twice)
Rex Grossman
Matt Hasselbeck
Donovan McNabb
Jake Delhomme
Rich Gannon.
Only two names don't belong.


You need a QB more than ever in today's game.

Iamcanadian
04-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Eh, Pennington's 2008 is on par with Ryan's best season (2010). Only difference is TDs but Pennington didn't have Roddy White or Gonzo, handed the ball to Ricky/Ronnie for TDs instead.

Did you read the part about Parcells regretting his decision, he knows he blew it with the Long pick and is saying so. Pennington had a long history of injuries and to expect him to stay healthy is ridiculous.
Ryan is well on his way to being among the very top QB's who will dominate the post Peyton, Brady and Roethlisberger era's while Miami could be looking at another decade before they get another shot at a Ryan type QB.

JBCX
04-13-2011, 04:32 PM
I think it is that simple and I think this case is like a precedent where teams are going to use for comparisons. Not too long ago people said, "If you got a franchise LT and franchise QB sitting on the board, then you take the better player." Not anymore. If you think the QB is a playoff QB that will win you games and give your team a chance to make a Super Bowl, then you take him. The LT is not going to do that. I think Jake Long is a better NFL player and I thought he was a better prospect, but if you don't have a QB, you draft the QB. It really is that simple. Walter Jones never won a Super Bowl. Willie Roaf. Anthony Munoz. You can have the best linemen and be a complete loser. You have a good QB and you have a perennial playoff caliber team.


This is an excellent post.

Another way to look at this situation of "do you pick an elite LT or take a risk on a QB in the first round" is this way: even if the LT you pick with your top 5 pick becomes one of the three best LTs in the game, how many "wins above replacement" does that afford you, compared to how many "wins above replacement" does one of even the best fifteen QBs in the game afford you?

That is, if you compared that player's production to the production you would get from a "replacement player" (whoever is relatively easy to obtain in the draft or free agency at that particular position), how great would the difference be? In the case of the LT, the gap between the most elite LT and your average replacement-level LT is not nearly as great as you would think. The elite LT may stone every pass rusher he faces, but the average LT, as long as he is merely competent, will protect against most of the pass rushers you face, even though he may give up some pressure and some sacks. The above-average QB, however, will allow you to single-handedly win games you couldn't with the replacement-level QB. This happens because competent LTs are far easier to find than competent QBs. How often can you find a top-15 QB in free agency or the later rounds of the draft? Compare that to how often you can find above-average LTs in those same areas.

Case in point: New Orleans Saints 2009. The Saints in 2008 had a Pro Bowl LT named Jammal Brown. Prior to the 2009 season, Brown is put on the DL for sports hernia injuries. How much did losing a top-10 LT mean to the Saints? They replaced him with a 4th round pick (Jermon Bushrod) and went on to not only win the Super Bowl but did it riding the league's highest-scoring offense all the way to the title. If Drew Brees went on the DL prior to the 2009 season, do you think the Saints win the Super Bowl that year? Do you think they even pick outside of the top 10 in the 2010 Draft? This case study alone should make you understand why you should ALWAYS pick the Matt Ryans over the Jake Longs in the top-5 of the draft.

Halsey
04-13-2011, 05:11 PM
This thread is a hoot. One guy had to use names like Schuab, Freeman and Stafford in an attempt to find a long list of QBs better than Ryan. :D

Almost as funny is the attempts to explain why Long was the right pick. I guess he was the right pick if the Dolphins wanted to go 7-9 and bore fans.

I'm sure Dolphins fans left every game last year saying "Boy, we couldn't score, but man did Jake Long block well! Yipee!"

descendency
04-13-2011, 05:57 PM
Here is my rule for drafting:

1) Franchise QB
2) Best player available
3) Players other teams want.

A franchise QB is a QB who will in ~2 years be the QB that is starting on your team. This does mean that if you have a QB now and you draft an elite player at another position, the QB you currently have has added value (in other words, the situation will be harder to overcome).

Let me give you a relevant example: Let's take the Colts. Peyton Manning in 2 years will be 37. Let's say the Colts get a premiere LT like Anthony Castonzo. The question is now will a guy like Andy Dalton with the current Colts situation beat out a 37 year old Manning with Castonzo? If the answer is no, you draft Castonzo. If the answer is yes, you draft Dalton.

This is why good GMs make big money - they make those kinds of decisions successfully.

PoopSandwich
04-13-2011, 06:11 PM
Parcells took a team that was what I believe one play from going 0-16 and turned it into a playoff contender, don't think his legacy is tarnished at all.

descendency
04-13-2011, 06:34 PM
Parcells took a team that was what I believe one play from going 0-16 and turned it into a playoff contender, don't think his legacy is tarnished at all.

3 seasons in Miami. 1 winning year. The team that almost went 0-16 was decimated by injuries and gave up way before the season was over.

Grizzlegom
04-13-2011, 07:17 PM
Did you read the part about Parcells regretting his decision, he knows he blew it with the Long pick and is saying so. Pennington had a long history of injuries and to expect him to stay healthy is ridiculous.
Ryan is well on his way to being among the very top QB's who will dominate the post Peyton, Brady and Roethlisberger era's while Miami could be looking at another decade before they get another shot at a Ryan type QB.

Apparently you didn't read it because he never said that he regretted it. Like it has been said earlier in the thread, the 'journalist' took some liberty with what BP said and made it sound like he completely regretted it when the only thing he legitimately regretted was taking Pat White.

The Dolphins allowed their second round pick help decide their first round pick. They said, "We can get Pat White and base our offense entirely around the WildCat, so lets go with Jake Long in the 1st." That should never happen and I hate when I constantly hear people in the media talk about a team passing up on a QB in round 1 because there is a QB in round 2. That logic and rational never works. If you got a chance to draft a QB and you think he's going to be Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Josh Freeman or Ben Roethlisberger, then you take them. Those guys win. They might not have the eye popping stats, but they win.

Mixing up drafts, we took Chad Henne along with Jake Long. Pat White/wildcat didn't factor in at all in that decision but your point remains, passing on QB in the first and going for a QB in the second doesn't work. Miami did it two years in a row (Ginn over Quinn, Long over Ryan).

dolphinfan2k5
04-13-2011, 07:24 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/27893/parcells-does-not-regret-drafting-jake-long

Parcells does not regret drafting Jake Long. If he could do it over again, knowing what he knows today he would do it all again. His quote was taken dramatically out of context.

Grizzlegom
04-13-2011, 07:25 PM
Almost as funny is the attempts to explain why Long was the right pick. I guess he was the right pick if the Dolphins wanted to go 7-9 and bore fans.

I'm sure Dolphins fans left every game last year saying "Boy, we couldn't score, but man did Jake Long block well! Yipee!"

Through 29 starts, Henne has a better completion percentage, more yards, five less TDs and 10 more INTs while Ryan had the 8th best running game over that time and Miami had the 13th. Ryan had Roddy White for all 29 of those starts and Gonzalez for 13 of those games. Henne had B-Marsh for 14 of those games with Brian Hartline as his best deep threat and Davone Bess as his leading receiver (I'd also like to point out that Michael Jenkins was MORE productive over that span than any of the Phins WRs). Would Ryan have had that much better numbers given he had the Phins personnel as opposed to the Falcons?

Now I'm not trying to say that Henne is as good as Ryan because I don't see any scenario where Henne's third year is as good as Ryan's but the stats are pretty close through the first two years, especially when you consider the offensive talent around the two players. I know I'm in the minority among Phins fans but I still think we can win with Henne if we get some players around him that actually match his skillset (fact is we have the skill position guys for a WCO and are trying to run a play action offense). We tried to run Pennington's offense with Henne. Dan Henning never adjusted and that's why he got fired.

BigBanger
04-13-2011, 07:45 PM
Now I'm not trying to say that Henne is as good as Ryan because I don't see any scenario where Henne's third year is as good as Ryan's but the stats are pretty close through the first two years, especially when you consider the offensive talent around the two players. I know I'm in the minority among Phins fans but I still think we can win with Henne if we get some players around him that actually match his skillset (fact is we have the skill position guys for a WCO and are trying to run a play action offense). We tried to run Pennington's offense with Henne. Dan Henning never adjusted and that's why he got fired.
I don't know how much you follow college football or Chad Henne's career, but Henne will do just enough, show just enough ability that will make you think he's going to be able to be your franchise QB. Physically, there is nothing Henne doesn't have that prohibits him from being a capable starter in the NFL.

But, for whatever reason -- and this has been going on since his four years in college where he hardly improved since he started for Michigan on Day 1 -- he just does not take that next step into being that winner and a leader that maximizes his abilities. He's mediocre and a chronic underachiever. That's all he's ever been, and that's all he'll probably ever be.

As a freshman, he tied the school record for TD passes in a season. You can just look at his stats from college and see that they really never get any better. He really has no potential since he's almost exactly the same player as the freshman he was in college. I expected him to develop into a Top 10 player during his season, and he just didn't. Everything is there. Accurate, great arm, good size... but there's just something missing.

Now, his two years as a starter in Miami... almost identical seasons. More INTs than TDs, decent yardage, solid completion percentage, but there's no improvement. Back-to-back 7-9 seasons. That is Chad Henne. He'll make you like him for so long, he'll give you hope... and then you'll just want to see him gone.

PoopSandwich
04-13-2011, 07:51 PM
3 seasons in Miami. 1 winning year. The team that almost went 0-16 was decimated by injuries and gave up way before the season was over.

Dude you cant forget the Packerz were decimated and won the super bowl.

Injuries shouldn't make a team "almost" the worst team in the history of the league W-L wise.

Grizzlegom
04-13-2011, 07:53 PM
I don't know how much you follow college football or Chad Henne's career, but Henne will do just enough, show just enough ability that will make you think he's going to be able to be your franchise QB. Physically, there is nothing Henne doesn't have that prohibits him from being a capable starter in the NFL.

But, for whatever reason -- and this has been going on since his four years in college where he hardly improved since he started for Michigan on Day 1 -- he just does not take that next step into being that winner and a leader that maximizes his abilities. He's mediocre and a chronic underachiever. That's all he's ever been, and that's all he'll probably ever be.

As a freshman, he tied the school record for TD passes in a season. You can just look at his stats from college and see that they really never get any better. He really has no potential since he's almost exactly the same player as the freshman he was in college. I expected him to develop into a Top 10 player during his season, and he just didn't. Everything is there. Accurate, great arm, good size... but there's just something missing.

Now, his two years as a starter in Miami... almost identical seasons. More INTs than TDs, decent yardage, solid completion percentage, but there's no improvement. Back-to-back 7-9 seasons. That is Chad Henne. He'll make you like him for so long, he'll give you hope... and then you'll just want to see him gone.

Haha, I'm a Big Ten and Phins fan so I know exactly what you mean. I actually HATED the pick when we made it as I hated Henne from his Michigan days (I'm a Penn State grad/fan) but I forced myself to start liking him and now I watch him out there and I know what I see is what I'm going to get but I'd at least like to see him have the pieces around him where he is given an opportunity to succeed before I'm ready to discard him. I just haven't quite reached that ARRRRRGHHH GET RID OF HIM stage plus I like to give QBs that show the promise they can be good at least three years. I think Henne has done that so I want to get him a deep threat (much like he had Manningham at Michigan), some better protection up front as although Long/Carey is a great OT combination our interior line was soooo godawful this past year that he had pressure coming up the middle constantly, and an H-Back. If we got those things and he still failed, then I'd be ready to take that next step in the Henne lifecycle. As an aside, a part of me wouldn't mind signing Kerry Collins to compete with him because they are from the same high school or taking Mallett just for the irony of him coming in to replace Henne just like he was supposed to do at Michigan.

Halsey
04-13-2011, 09:34 PM
I don't care how you spin the stats. If you can't see that Ryan is a clearly better starting QB than Henne, you have a lot to learn about football. It's not even worth debating because deep down nobody other than Chad Henne's mom thinks it's debatable.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
04-13-2011, 11:30 PM
In hindsight, it's obvious that Ryan was the better pick. Long is great, but the lack of a QB is directly holding Miami back. The thing is though that I'm guessing Parcells wasn't sure of him at the time. It's important to take a franchise QB if you don't have one, but you don't take a QB if you don't think he's a franchise QB. The guy threw 19 picks as a senior.

Iamcanadian
04-14-2011, 12:19 AM
Through 29 starts, Henne has a better completion percentage, more yards, five less TDs and 10 more INTs while Ryan had the 8th best running game over that time and Miami had the 13th. Ryan had Roddy White for all 29 of those starts and Gonzalez for 13 of those games. Henne had B-Marsh for 14 of those games with Brian Hartline as his best deep threat and Davone Bess as his leading receiver (I'd also like to point out that Michael Jenkins was MORE productive over that span than any of the Phins WRs). Would Ryan have had that much better numbers given he had the Phins personnel as opposed to the Falcons?

Now I'm not trying to say that Henne is as good as Ryan because I don't see any scenario where Henne's third year is as good as Ryan's but the stats are pretty close through the first two years, especially when you consider the offensive talent around the two players. I know I'm in the minority among Phins fans but I still think we can win with Henne if we get some players around him that actually match his skillset (fact is we have the skill position guys for a WCO and are trying to run a play action offense). We tried to run Pennington's offense with Henne. Dan Henning never adjusted and that's why he got fired.

Well, I hope you are right, as a Bills fan I really hope Miami sticks with Henne for the next decade but I expect they will get tired of all those losing records sooner rather than later.

descendency
04-14-2011, 12:39 AM
Injuries shouldn't make a team "almost" the worst team in the history of the league W-L wise.

When you are a bad team and take on injuries, it's a lot different than taking on injuries at non critical spots like ILB and 3rd WR.

Grizzlegom
04-14-2011, 08:54 AM
I don't care how you spin the stats. If you can't see that Ryan is a clearly better starting QB than Henne, you have a lot to learn about football. It's not even worth debating because deep down nobody other than Chad Henne's mom thinks it's debatable.

Somebody apparently stopped reading before the part where I said "Now I'm not trying to say that Henne is as good as Ryan because I don't see any scenario where Henne's third year is as good as Ryan's"

FlyingElvis
04-14-2011, 09:29 AM
Apparently you didn't read it because he never said that he regretted it. Like it has been said earlier in the thread, the 'journalist' took some liberty with what BP said and made it sound like he completely regretted it when the only thing he legitimately regretted was taking Pat White.


http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/27893/parcells-does-not-regret-drafting-jake-long

Parcells does not regret drafting Jake Long. If he could do it over again, knowing what he knows today he would do it all again. His quote was taken dramatically out of context.

None of the asshats that spread this twisted nonsense across all media channels will lose their jobs, either.

I repeat: journalism is dead.

Halsey
04-14-2011, 09:40 AM
Yeah, I don't believe Parcells. He's saying that out of pride. If he could really do it all over again, he'd draft Ryan and try to use the two 2nd rounders to trade back into the first to take Ryan Clady.

thebow305
04-14-2011, 09:56 AM
This, this, this, and more this. If Pennington had stayed healthy for two years in a row for once in his career we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I still think Jake was the right choice despite Ryan's success. We had no receivers, no offensive line, and our defense was old. Ryan didn't show in college that he can carry a team without a supporting cast to elite status and he hasn't shown it in the NFL either. Sure, Ryan is pretty darn good in Atlanta but we didn't have Roddy White and Michael Turner waiting for him. If he came to Miami he'd probably have had a career full of glimpses of promise but wouldn't have put up the kind of numbers he has in Atlanta and who knows how things would have fell. Hindsight may be 20-20 but I really don't think it applies in this situation. Now if we're talking Brady Quinn vs. Ted Ginn...

Besides, Parcells didn't exactly come out and say it was a mistake, he just said maybe it would have been a better selection. Top 2 LT vs. top 10 QB. Its a legit question, but I don't think its simple to just proclaim the QB and call it a day.


I agree with both of these statements.


Long was the right pick, because as it was said before we have been terrible in developing QB's. He probably would have been slightly better than Henne, but with no protection, no receivers and no guidance, there's no telling if he would have turned out as well as he has for Atlanta. My guess is he wouldn't. Our OL was in shambles and our WR corps was abysmal, which would give him little to no chance to be successful even if we had drafted Dan Marino again at the #1 pick. Very few QB's would have been successful in our system in the time since Ryan was drafted and I don't think he would have been one of them.

Some people including Mike Mayock are under the belief that if you don't have a franchise QB, and you have a chance to take one, you don't pass on him. But for every one of those people there are just as many that believe it all starts in the trenches. we followed that philosophy. Our biggest mistake wasn't drafting Long, it was tearing apart the OL during the 2010 offseason. We should've kept Jake Grove, injury-prone or not, guy was a BEAST when healthy. We should've kept Justin Smiley. If it ain't broke don't fix it and our OL from the season before was BEASTLY and one of the best young lines in the league.

We got a franchise Left Tackle, an all-pro and the best OT in the game. That's it, get over it.

JBCX
04-14-2011, 10:01 AM
I agree with both of these statements.


Long was the right pick, because as it was said before we have been terrible in developing QB's. He probably would have been slightly better than Henne, but with no protection, no receivers and no guidance, there's no telling if he would have turned out as well as he has for Atlanta. My guess is he wouldn't. Our OL was in shambles and our WR corps was abysmal, which would give him little to no chance to be successful even if we had drafted Dan Marino again at the #1 pick. Very few QB's would have been successful in our system in the time since Ryan was drafted and I don't think he would have been one of them.


Having a franchise QB is *the* most important thing in the NFL. If you don't have one, you will never win a Super Bowl or even get into the playoffs with any regularity.

By your logic, just because a team is "bad" at picking the single most important position in the game, they should give up altogether? How do you sell that to fans of the team: "Sorry guys, we suck at drafting and developing QBs, we're just going to have to keep trotting out bums at that position and you're just going to have to enjoy sub-.500 seasons forever. ...But we have the best LT in the game! "

PoopSandwich
04-14-2011, 10:02 AM
When you are a bad team and take on injuries, it's a lot different than taking on injuries at non critical spots like ILB and 3rd WR.

Yes but BAD team was my entire point, Parcells at least gave them some talent and helped turn the organization around a bit.

bigbluedefense
04-14-2011, 10:02 AM
Parcells took a Miami team who was 1-15, and even worse from a a management perspective, gave them structure, gave them a good coach, and gave them solid drafts.

He put the structure in place for the franchise to be successful again. Not to mention, while he passed on Ryan, he did get arguably the best LT in the NFL in his place.

Parcells did a great job in Miami.

JBCX
04-14-2011, 10:09 AM
Parcells took a Miami team who was 1-15, and even worse from a a management perspective, gave them structure, gave them a good coach, and gave them solid drafts.

He put the structure in place for the franchise to be successful again. Not to mention, while he passed on Ryan, he did get arguably the best LT in the NFL in his place.


That's like saying: a guy passed on a job offer to become CEO of a Manhattan investment bank so that he could operate the most profitable gas station in New Jersey. Even if it's the best gas station in the Tri-State area, it's still a friggin' gas station.

FlyingElvis
04-14-2011, 10:10 AM
That's like saying: a guy passed on a job offer to become CEO of a Manhattan investment bank so that he could operate the most profitable gas station in New Jersey. Even if it's the best gas station in the Tri-State area, it's still a friggin' gas station.

No, it's not like that at all.

bigbluedefense
04-14-2011, 10:26 AM
That's like saying: a guy passed on a job offer to become CEO of a Manhattan investment bank so that he could operate the most profitable gas station in New Jersey. Even if it's the best gas station in the Tri-State area, it's still a friggin' gas station.

No, not really. You're overrating Matt Ryan.

Jake Long is at worst a top 3 OT in the league. Matt Ryan at best is a top 10 qb in this league.

Matt Ryan is a very good up and coming qb, but he's not nearly as good as the credit he receives.

JBCX
04-14-2011, 10:48 AM
The point of my analogy is that comparing a top-15 QB to the best LT in the NFL is like comparing your average CEO to the best gas station operator in the country. No matter how good that gas station operator is at his job, it's still a gas station.

QBs are the CEOs of the NFL, LTs are just another grunt. Even if your QB is only, say, the 12th ranked CEO, he's still a CEO. The best LT ever is still just a grunt.

FlyingElvis
04-14-2011, 10:53 AM
The point of my analogy is that comparing a top-15 QB to the best LT in the NFL is like comparing your average CEO to the best gas station operator in the country. No matter how good that gas station operator is at his job, it's still a gas station.

QBs are the CEOs of the NFL, LTs are just another grunt. Even if your QB is only, say, the 12th ranked CEO, he's still a CEO. The best LT ever is still just a grunt.

Except that comparison is based entirely on hindsight. A more appropriate comparison would be something more along these lines:

A guy passed on a job offer to become CEO of a Manhattan investment bank so that he could become CEO of less risky fast food chain b/c he valued the security of having a guaranteed, long term solution.

JBCX
04-14-2011, 10:58 AM
Except that comparison is based entirely on hindsight. A more appropriate comparison would be something more along these lines:

A guy passed on a job offer to become CEO of a Manhattan investment bank so that he could become CEO of less risky fast food chain b/c he valued the security of having a guaranteed, long term solution.

Except that by drafting a LT #1 overall, that player's upside can't be compared to becoming the CEO of anything. This analogy works, but it should read "A guy passed on a job offer to become CEO of a Manhattan investment bank to become the Regional Manager of a less risky fast food chain."

Hitting on a LT is like successfully being hired for a $100k / year occupation, while hitting on a QB is like being hired for a $5mill/year occupation.

thebow305
04-14-2011, 12:48 PM
Having a franchise QB is *the* most important thing in the NFL. If you don't have one, you will never win a Super Bowl or even get into the playoffs with any regularity.

By your logic, just because a team is "bad" at picking the single most important position in the game, they should give up altogether? How do you sell that to fans of the team: "Sorry guys, we suck at drafting and developing QBs, we're just going to have to keep trotting out bums at that position and you're just going to have to enjoy sub-.500 seasons forever. ...But we have the best LT in the game! "

No, you're missing my logic entirely here. What I am saying is that taking a QB that high is pointless unless you have a structure built around him to succeed. Unless you have that, there is no point to taking a Qb that high because whoever it is, he is going to fail. It's better to build the team up first and build an environment that is successful and condusive to winning then add the QB and let him take you to the next level. Like i said, very few QB's would've succeeded on the 1-15 team Miami trotted out there that season and Matt Ryan is no different.

Halsey
04-14-2011, 12:54 PM
No, you're missing my logic entirely here. What I am saying is that taking a QB that high is pointless unless you have a structure built around him to succeed.

That's such nonsense. A team that waits to have the perfect team built around a QB will never bring in a QB. Teams like the Cardinals and Bills pick high every year and build up their roster, yet the only time they're ever relevant is when they've had a franchise QB. The Falcons were horrible between having Vick and Ryan, yet when they have a franchise QB, they are competitive. The Packers this past year are the perfect example of how a QB can help boost a team despite injuries that decimate a roster. It's a fan made myth that you wait to draft a QB.

Trogdor
04-14-2011, 01:37 PM
This thread amuses me. Do people on this forum actually believe Matt Ryan is an elite QB or that he would look any better than average if he had a mediocre/poor oline and supporting cast (what he would of had in Miami). Amazing supporting cast + Great Oline = QB looking better than he is. Might want to re-examine what "Matty Ice" does with a terrible supporting cast (remember his senior year with 19 picks?)

I'm not saying he's average I'm saying he is certainly NOT elite and shouldn't be valued over a top 3 LT (Long).







That's such nonsense. A team that waits to have the perfect team built around a QB will never bring in a QB. Teams like the Cardinals and Bills pick high every year and build up their roster, yet the only time they're ever relevant is when they've had a franchise QB. The Falcons were horrible between having Vick and Ryan, yet when they have a franchise QB, they are competitive. The Packers this past year are the perfect example of how a QB can help boost a team despite injuries that decimate a roster. It's a fan made myth that you wait to draft a QB.

So you're completely discounting the idea of a supporting cast? Matt Ryan on a team w/o a strong oline and a very good supporting cast will be just as inefficient as JaWalrus on a super bowl caliber team.

Halsey
04-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Of course I'm not discounting the supporting cast, but a good QB makes his supporting cast better. You're never going to get a QB if you wait to have the perfect supporting cast. If you find a good QB, it boosts the whole supporting cast, including defense and special teams.

oh, and the 19 picks criticism is for people who don't know how to evaluate QBs. Matt Ryan threw 654 passes his senior year. Do you realize how few ints 19 is out of 654 pass attempts?

HawkEye30
04-14-2011, 03:13 PM
How would it tarnish his legacy? The dolphins ******* sucked before he got there. He left them in better shape than when he arrived, I'd say it was a good job.

Grizzlegom
04-14-2011, 03:49 PM
oh, and the 19 picks criticism is for people who don't know how to evaluate QBs. Matt Ryan threw 654 passes his senior year. Do you realize how few ints 19 is out of 654 pass attempts?

Its close to 3% of his passes. Most elite QB prospects are in in the 1.75-2.5% range in their senior seasons. You also realize that's more in one season than every QB that's been drafted in the first round the past three years has thrown in their entire collegiate career right? (with the exception of Freeman although he made a MAJOR improvement his senior year, cutting his INT total in half to around 2% of his passes)

Ryan Mallett is the only QB on par with Ryan in the last five years in terms of % of interceptions thrown in his final college season and Jake Locker, even with his TERRIBLE senior season, was less likely to throw an INT than Matt Ryan. Obviously there's a lot more to evaluating a QB than INT rate but I'm just saying, Matt Ryan was far from a sure thing as a PROSPECT. I remember there were a number of analysts that weren't even sold on him as a top 10 prospect much less the first overall pick.

FlyingElvis
04-14-2011, 03:52 PM
Its close to 3% of his passes. Most elite QB prospects are in in the 1.75-2.5% range in their senior seasons. You also realize that's more in one season than every QB that's been drafted in the first round the past three years has thrown in their entire collegiate career right? (with the exception of Freeman although he made a MAJOR improvement his senior year, cutting his INT total in half to around 2% of his passes)

Ryan Mallett is the only QB on par with Ryan in the last five years in terms of % of interceptions thrown in his final college season and Jake Locker, even with his TERRIBLE senior season, was less likely to throw an INT than Matt Ryan. Obviously there's a lot more to evaluating a QB than INT rate but I'm just saying, Matt Ryan was far from a sure thing as a PROSPECT. I remember there were a number of analysts that weren't even sold on him as a top 10 prospect much less the first overall pick.

Whatever. None of this nonsense you just pointed out takes what we know now into account.

Gmen1987
04-14-2011, 07:20 PM
Parcells took a team that was what I believe one play from going 0-16 and turned it into a playoff contender, don't think his legacy is tarnished at all.

Last time I checked, Bill Parcells didn't call a single play when he was with the Dolphins. How can you give him credit for the Dolphins 2008 turnaround all by himself when he wasn't even on the sidelines or designing plays?

I always thought the game past Parcell by in recent years. His Dallas teams underachieved. Wade Phillips got better results from Parcells guys. His short stint in Miami was a disaster. With Matt Ryan, the Dolphins would have solved their QB problems that plagued them since Dan Marino retired, but past on him. Maimi could have done what Atlanta did and taked up for Sam Baker. For those of you who said the Miami OL is so much better because of Jake Long. Long plays only one of 5 positions on the line. If the Miami line performed so much better, than that means there was talent besides Long on that line.

Parcells also wiffed on Pat White. Most professional scouts had White going a lot lower than the 2nd round and that he probably was going to be a WR/Slash player like Brad Smith of the Jets. White played only one season in the NFL. Total bust.

I think Parcells enjoyed more seeing his name in the media with all his trades that he made on draft day that he didn't concentrate hard enough on evaluating players available in the spots he had.

D-Unit
04-14-2011, 08:04 PM
Last time I checked, Bill Parcells didn't call a single play when he was with the Dolphins. How can you give him credit for the Dolphins 2008 turnaround all by himself when he wasn't even on the sidelines or designing plays?

I always thought the game past Parcell by in recent years. His Dallas teams underachieved. Wade Phillips got better results from Parcells guys. His short stint in Miami was a disaster. With Matt Ryan, the Dolphins would have solved their QB problems that plagued them since Dan Marino retired, but past on him. Maimi could have done what Atlanta did and taked up for Sam Baker. For those of you who said the Miami OL is so much better because of Jake Long. Long plays only one of 5 positions on the line. If the Miami line performed so much better, than that means there was talent besides Long on that line.

Parcells also wiffed on Pat White. Most professional scouts had White going a lot lower than the 2nd round and that he probably was going to be a WR/Slash player like Brad Smith of the Jets. White played only one season in the NFL. Total bust.

I think Parcells enjoyed more seeing his name in the media with all his trades that he made on draft day that he didn't concentrate hard enough on evaluating players available in the spots he had.
I love listening to Parcells talk. I think his words turn into golden nuggets. That said, he made so many mistakes in Dallas it's not even funny. Did he turn the team around? Absolutely YES! But he also quit. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt when rumors rose that he might leave Dallas. I didn't think he was going to leave considering the turn around he made, but when he did... and then watching him quit in Miami.... I just formed an opinion that he's a quitter.

As for Matt Ryan... I thought he was the crap. He proved me wrong.

HawkEye30
04-14-2011, 08:47 PM
I love listening to Parcells talk. I think his words turn into golden nuggets. That said, he made so many mistakes in Dallas it's not even funny. Did he turn the team around? Absolutely YES! But he also quit. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt when rumors rose that he might leave Dallas. I didn't think he was going to leave considering the turn around he made, but when he did... and then watching him quit in Miami.... I just formed an opinion that he's a quitter.

As for Matt Ryan... I thought he was the crap. He proved me wrong.

I wouldn't really say he's a quitter. I'm pretty sure Miami knew what they were getting when they hired him. And the whole Dallas thing doesn't really compare to him leaving in Miami.

J-Mike88
04-14-2011, 09:11 PM
matt ryan is good but hes not exactly a world beater, not something to kick yourself over
hey, he kept aaron rodgers from making the pro bowl team this year, so he is a world beater.

i agree with you on brady quinn though. good call.... it will always be a "what might have been".... thing is, they could have gotten brady quinn many times since then, and they have big Jake, and big Brandon Marshall to throw to.

D-Unit
04-14-2011, 09:24 PM
I wouldn't really say he's a quitter. I'm pretty sure Miami knew what they were getting when they hired him. And the whole Dallas thing doesn't really compare to him leaving in Miami.
Well, outside of winning the SBs w/the Giants, he pretty much quit wherever he went tho. He's a master turn arounder, but he leaves before the job is complete.

J-Mike88
04-14-2011, 09:55 PM
Well, outside of winning the SBs w/the Giants, he pretty much quit wherever he went tho. He's a master turn arounder, but he leaves before the job is complete.
Scott Norwood handed him that Super Bowl, and Parcells has had some good moments in the 20 years since them, but he's been very overrated.

But he's funny as schit to listen to.

wogitalia
04-15-2011, 08:45 AM
If Ryan is average, name the 15 or so starters who are better. I got a good laugh the last time people made a fool of themselves trying it. Names like Kyle Orton and David Garrard were use

Unquestionably Better

1. Manning
2. Brady
3. Rivers
4. Brees
5. Rodgers
6. Roethlisberger

On the Same Level/Arguably Better

7. Josh Freeman
8. Michael Vick
9. Joe Flacco
10. Matt Cassel
11. Matt Schaub
12. Jay Cutler
13. Eli Manning


Haven't attempted any order in either groups, just using numbers to keep count. Ryan is the 7th best QB in the league in an absolute best case scenario. Arguements can be made he is the 14th best(I wouldn't make it but all those guys have a case that can be made). I'd say that if you fall in the 10-20 range you are an "average" quarterback and I'd say that Ryan falls in that category.

Ryan is a very good young player but he plays in a very friendly team/system. Lots of simple short passes and easy reads, a very solid OL, a very solid RB and a very nice dome to play his home games in. I love his consistency and he is a very good player but to argue he is more than an average QB at this point would be giving him more credit than he has earned.

None of this means he can't keep moving up into the elite bracket either.

bigbluedefense
04-15-2011, 11:57 AM
Alright. Seriously. Josh Freeman is good and all, but he's getting way too much love.

bigbluedefense
04-15-2011, 12:01 PM
Scott Norwood handed him that Super Bowl, and Parcells has had some good moments in the 20 years since them, but he's been very overrated.

But he's funny as schit to listen to.

Scott Norwood didn't hand him anything. Especially when it's a 47 yard field goal in the SB. Those kicks aren't exactly high percentage.

Not to mention he had a horrible % on grass beyond 40 yards.

Not to mention that a game isn't decided by one play.

But other than all that, yeah sure. Totally gave it away.

bigbluedefense
04-15-2011, 12:04 PM
Unquestionably Better

1. Manning
2. Brady
3. Rivers
4. Brees
5. Rodgers
6. Roethlisberger

On the Same Level/Arguably Better

7. Josh Freeman
8. Michael Vick
9. Joe Flacco
10. Matt Cassel
11. Matt Schaub
12. Jay Cutler
13. Eli Manning


Haven't attempted any order in either groups, just using numbers to keep count. Ryan is the 7th best QB in the league in an absolute best case scenario. Arguements can be made he is the 14th best(I wouldn't make it but all those guys have a case that can be made). I'd say that if you fall in the 10-20 range you are an "average" quarterback and I'd say that Ryan falls in that category.

Ryan is a very good young player but he plays in a very friendly team/system. Lots of simple short passes and easy reads, a very solid OL, a very solid RB and a very nice dome to play his home games in. I love his consistency and he is a very good player but to argue he is more than an average QB at this point would be giving him more credit than he has earned.

None of this means he can't keep moving up into the elite bracket either.

I agree. He's not bad by anymeans, but he's not that great either. Can he get there? Absolutely, he's still growing.

But he hasn't earned his status in my opinion. He's a very good up and coming qb, but he's not elite.

He hasn't had a good playoff game yet either. I'm not saying he's a bad qb at all, just that he's not that great either. Not yet at least.

Halsey
04-15-2011, 12:44 PM
You're just exposing your own lack of ability to analyze QBs when you try to use guys like Freeman and Cassell.

and Ryan's lack of a playoff win in his whopping 3 years is a major cause of concern. Everyone knows that a QB who hasn't won a playoff game in his first 3 years is doomed to failure.

zachsaints52
04-15-2011, 01:09 PM
Cassell sucks. Having a Top running game + easiest schedule to throw against pretty much ever= Decent stats and a playoff visit. Give me Ryan.

Halsey
04-15-2011, 03:39 PM
Really good article by John Clayton.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6343941

PoopSandwich
04-15-2011, 03:56 PM
Last time I checked, Bill Parcells didn't call a single play when he was with the Dolphins. How can you give him credit for the Dolphins 2008 turnaround all by himself when he wasn't even on the sidelines or designing plays?

Are you ******* stupid? Seriously?

Go find where I said Parcells was the only reason the Dolphins were turned around.

I swear to god the ability of some people to create an argument out of something that never happened on this forum is incredible some times.

D-Unit
04-15-2011, 04:18 PM
Really good article by John Clayton.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6343941
John Clayton is a moron. No wait... He's an ugly ass moron.

That article was just plain dumb. Safe isn't safe anymore? C'mon ESPN Senior Writer!!! That the best you got? Sure is easy to play the hindsight 20/20 card and use cases that support your point. Safe isn't safe anymore, so teams should take the risk? It's easy to say now that Bradford was the right pick over Suh, Ryan was the right pick over Long, and bash Chris Long, Jason Williams and Aaron Curry as "safe picks" gone wrong.

Well, what about the risk the Raiders took taking Jamarcus Russell over Calvin Johnson and Joe Thomas? What about the risk the Niners took on Alex Smith? Let's not forget David Carr (risk) over Julius Peppers and on and on an on throughout history.

Clayton is good for nothing... another twisted story based off favorable facts and clear hindsight. Anyone can do that. meh.

CJSchneider
04-15-2011, 04:34 PM
He just had his first good season after a pretty meh sophomore season. Along with finishing very low in yards per attempt this season i am not sold on him getting a team deep into the playoffs yet. Like i said he is not THAT good yet.

Other then Flacco and Sanchez, no other drafted, starting QB since the 08 draft has taken their team to the play-offs and Flacco and Ryan are within 200 yards of each other in regards to total yards. Ryan also had a better TD to INT ratio than Flacco. Only 4 others had a better TD/INT ratio than Ryan for that matter. How good do you have to be in order to be THAT good, I'm just curious?

Babylon
04-15-2011, 05:20 PM
John Clayton is a moron. No wait... He's an ugly ass moron.

That article was just plain dumb. Safe isn't safe anymore? C'mon ESPN Senior Writer!!! That the best you got? Sure is easy to play the hindsight 20/20 card and use cases that support your point. Safe isn't safe anymore, so teams should take the risk? It's easy to say now that Bradford was the right pick over Suh, Ryan was the right pick over Long, and bash Chris Long, Jason Williams and Aaron Curry as "safe picks" gone wrong.

Well, what about the risk the Raiders took taking Jamarcus Russell over Calvin Johnson and Joe Thomas? What about the risk the Niners took on Alex Smith? Let's not forget David Carr (risk) over Julius Peppers and on and on an on throughout history.

Clayton is good for nothing... another twisted story based off favorable facts and clear hindsight. Anyone can do that. meh.

Clayton is up there with Casserly and Lombardi as some of the talking heads i have no use for.

Saints-Tigers
04-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Ryan is better than Cassell, but Freeman is easily better than both.

Gmen1987
04-16-2011, 06:54 AM
Miami fans sure like to bash Matt Ryan. The fact is Ryan is better than any Miami has that they call a QB. Once again Miami is in the off season with huge questions at QB. Another season of overpaying for a washed up QB or drafting a scrub QB higher than what he should have been. Must be tough for Miami fans to have to tune to the NFL Today to their best option at QB.

Sound like Miami fans are jealous of Matt Ryan and bitter that Parcells ego didn't recognize talent.

Gmen1987
04-16-2011, 06:57 AM
You're just exposing your own lack of ability to analyze QBs when you try to use guys like Freeman and Cassell.

and Ryan's lack of a playoff win in his whopping 3 years is a major cause of concern. Everyone knows that a QB who hasn't won a playoff game in his first 3 years is doomed to failure.

At least he got his teams to the playoff (can't win in the playoffs if you can't get there). How many times has Miami been in the playoff the last 3 years?

NGSeiler
04-16-2011, 07:40 AM
Let's not forget David Carr (risk) over Julius Peppers

What are you talking about? Clearly David Carr overcame the Texans' pathetic offensive line and has been challenging for multiple AFC South titles for the better part of the last decade! Franchise quarterback FTW!

JBCX
04-16-2011, 11:12 AM
As inflammatory as it sounds, what "Gmen1987" said is true: the Dolphins would be a playoff contender right now if they had picked Matt Ryan in the 2008 draft. As it stands, right now they have no one who can play QB as well as Ryan on their team.

stephenson86
04-16-2011, 12:48 PM
prove it. seriously. you have no idea what would've happened if they'd taken ryan.

I always like it when people say a certain decision would assure a future event.

bigbluedefense
04-16-2011, 12:51 PM
The past 3 years, the Dolphins made the playoffs once, the Falcons twice.

Both teams were 1 and done in the playoffs when they went there. Miami was also a hot name in the offseason as a SB team so its not like they're terrible, they just underachieved. Contrarily, Atlanta clearly overachieved this year.

Soooooo....are they really that far apart? I don't think so. Miami could easily have a bounceback year and Atlanta could go 8-8, then what would we say? The opposite?

The bottom line is both teams picked great players and should be happy about that.

San Diego Chicken
04-17-2011, 07:00 AM
Drafting Jake Long over Matt Ryan isn't the mistake that the Dolphins front office should be kicking themselves for. Choosing Daunte Culpepper over Drew Brees in the 2006 off-season was a far, far more costly move.

Saints-Tigers
04-17-2011, 11:42 AM
If you give Matt Ryan an elite WR, an elite RB, an elite TE, and an elite defense, he's proven he'll get you into the post season, so you can get waxed.

Pil
04-17-2011, 02:23 PM
If you give Matt Ryan an elite WR, an elite RB, an elite TE, and an elite defense, he's proven he'll get you into the post season, so you can get waxed.

http://www.insidethegate.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/applause2.gif

GoRavens
04-17-2011, 02:59 PM
Of course it was a bad decision.
Matt Ryan has all the skills to be the top QB in the NFL (in a few years)

DBNYDP
04-17-2011, 03:28 PM
Well in all fairness, I do not think that if Matt Ryan went to the Dolphins he'd be considered the success he is today. In fact being in that situation...I think we might have seen another David Carr.
Don't get me wrong. I love Matt Ryan but...I think whenever you put a QB in a situation where the line is terrible and the receivers are meh you are asking for disaster.
Franchise QBs are hard to find, but so are LTs. Jake Long has become a great LT and I think he can really take a big step next season, so I wouldn't be kicking myself too much for that pick.

Saints-Tigers
04-18-2011, 02:06 AM
Of course it was a bad decision.
Matt Ryan has all the skills to be the top QB in the NFL (in a few years)


If you want to stretch it that far, a lot of guys have the tools to be the best QB in the NFL.

Smash28Dash34
04-18-2011, 01:15 PM
I would still take Long over Ryan in a heartbeat. Long is one of the top 3 tackles in the game. He might even be the best run blocker. While Ryan is good, he is definitely overrated. Since the Falcons drafted him in 2008 they have finished over .500 in every season, but the combined record of the teams they beat is 207-305 and they are 0-2 in the playoffs. Matt Ryan is good, but not yet great. Jake Long will be a top 5 player at his position for years to come.