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D-Unit
04-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Now that some of the dust has settled, I'm convinced that Christian Ponder will have the brightest career out of the QBs selected in this year's draft. People can say the Vikings reached, but their board was put together for their own team. Not for the other 31.

Ponder will succeed because:

1) Intelligence. Graduated in 2.5 years with a 3.7 GPA and already has a Master's degree. Goes to show the kind of committment and work ethic he has off the field. It's also a good sign to show that a high ceiling on his learning capacity, which is crucial for the QB position.

2) Strong arm. Ponder's arm is plenty strong to make all the NFL throws. If you don't know it, watch him.

3) Elusive on his feet. He's not a runner like Newton, Tebow, Vick... but he's comfortable making plays on his feet and escaping pressure. In a lot of ways he reminds me of how Romo used to be. Romo runs a lot less now days, but he used to be a magician back there. So while he uses his feet well, he doesn't take off and scramble on his first instinct. Big plus.

3) Ponder comes from a pro style system. His footwork out from underneath center is smooth and automatic. He doesn't have to think about his footwork. It's just natural, unlike his peers coming from spread option systems who don't have the repetitiion advantage.

4) No accuracy question marks. While Locker and Newton have been highly criticized of this, nobody says that about Ponder.

5) He's a gunslinger. He's got that Brett Favre, never die attitude. He looks to extend plays and make things happen out of nothing. While that can be good many times, it has lead to some of his INTs... but the Vikings will love him for it.

6) Alpha male. This is important to me. Ponder sparkles those good looks that all those confident lead dogs have. People like him and gravitate him. People want to follow him. He's an easy guy to place confidence in. When he leads, you want to listen. That's the type he is. Not just because of his looks, but the complete package. Looks, smarts, athletic... fricken... our society loves those kinds of people. That's just the way it is.

7) Strong supporting cast. Now here is the real kicker that puts everything over the top. Ponder is going to a place where he can succeed right away. Handing the ball off to Adrian Peterson and targets like Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Berrian and Camarillo... not to mention a solid TE in Shianco... Ponder is landing in the best situation of all the other QBs in this draft.

So before you start knocking the pick (all you Locker lovers who praised Tennessee), realize you might be knocking the best QB to come out of this draft!!! They didn't reach. They got a damn STEAL!

keylime_5
04-29-2011, 04:20 PM
his upside isn't as great as Newton, Gabbert, Locker, Mallett, or Kaepernick....but you are probably right. If he stays healthy he probably will end up better than those other guys. He was good in college, just hurt a lot.

Saints-Tigers
04-29-2011, 04:24 PM
Don't get caught in the off field trap(Alex Smith). Off field intelligence doesn't automatically translate

gpngc
04-29-2011, 04:24 PM
He has those traits, but that never translated into consistent proficient play at the college level.

The best indicator of future performance is past performance. I'm not saying it CAN'T happen, but it's hard for me to predict success in the NFL for a QB who didn't really have much of it in college.

With that said, you can never question the heart and will of an athlete. If he wants to get better and improve, maybe he can become a solid NFL QB. I wouldn't bet on it though.

the natural
04-29-2011, 04:33 PM
Don't know about the "Alpha male" bit. He hung with Gabbert a lot this spring, and Gabbert seemed the dominant personality even though he is a couple of years younger than Ponder.

marty264
04-29-2011, 04:34 PM
His arm strength was plenty good before the forearm injury. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Jar435rnc

Hopefully it returns to that level.

FUNBUNCHER
04-29-2011, 04:35 PM
I don't know how many here watch much ACC football, but if you have, Ponder has some really pathetic performances on his resume. No ACC fan IMO would imagine at the end of the 2010 season that Ponder would be regarded as a high first round pick.

He may be academically smart, but that raw intelligence doesn't always translate to being football savvy.

It's hard for me to believe he'll be a significantly better pro than he was a collegian. Ponder had always had a decent Oline, raw talent at WR, serviceable RBs, all while playing in a conference on par competition wise with the Big East.

And yet Ponder never was a dominant QB. Ponder, like Gabbert, is a prospect who benefited from a bang-up predraft postseason, playing well in allstar games and testing better than teams believed he would as an athlete.

IMO he's Patrick Ramsey, a guy with tools but something is lacking that makes him a 1st string NFL QB.

If Ponder pans out, Personally I'll have to re-evaluate what is it that identifies a college QB as a future pro.

Va Tech's Tyrod Taylor also played in a pro style offense in college, and compare what he did for the Hokies in his final year to Ponder. Tyrod blew Ponder away in every category except completion percentage.

Do people view Taylor as a future starter in the NFL?? Same arm as Ponder, wicked mobility, an inch shorter (6'1 to 6'2).

Maybe they should.

SchizophrenicBatman
04-29-2011, 04:36 PM
Ponder sucks. Ask anyone who's actually watched him play

SchizophrenicBatman
04-29-2011, 04:36 PM
BTW that "pro style" system is the famed Bobby Petrino offense

the natural
04-29-2011, 04:38 PM
Ponder's athleticism is really underrated, I will give you that. Look at his combine numbers, he is right there with Newton, Gabbert, Locker, Kaepernick. In terms of size and his test scores.

Hurricanes25
04-29-2011, 04:39 PM
I'm a fan of Ponder but c'mon, you can't take him at #12. He would have been a good value late 1st/early 2nd.

marty264
04-29-2011, 04:44 PM
Hurricanes25, the Vikes' 'GM' said that they called every team below them, and couldn't find a trade partner, whether its true or not, who knows? Seems like a reach when looking at draft analysts big boards, but what happens if they did manage to trade down and Washington takes him at 16?

FUNBUNCHER
04-29-2011, 04:48 PM
Ponder's athleticism is really underrated, I will give you that. Look at his combine numbers, he is right there with Newton, Gabbert, Locker, Kaepernick. In terms of size and his test scores.

All these guys are bunched together in the 4.5 - 4.6 range, ridiculous speed for a QB, but IMO only Newton, Locker and CK are really effective scrambling, (decent lateral movement and can consistently make one tackler miss.)

Ponder and Gabbert don't look real comfortable in the open field and are more or less straight line runners, but still a QB with those kinds of wheels is always a threat on 3rd and 8 to take off and pick up the first down.

SchizophrenicBatman
04-29-2011, 04:53 PM
Ponder can move around outside the pocket but any time he actually runs with the ball he looks like he's about to take a concussion. Same with Gabbert

batsandgats
04-29-2011, 06:36 PM
"Don't know about the "Alpha male" bit. He hung with Gabbert a lot this spring, and Gabbert seemed the dominant personality even though he is a couple of years younger than Ponder."

LOL where do you get this crap from? Even if its true, what does his personality hanging out with Gabbert off the field have to do with how he is with his team? I understand you have a man crush on Gabbert, but do you really find it necessary to bash every other prospect that isn't Gabbert? It doesn't elevate Gabbert AT all.

I mean what does that statement even mean? Dominant personality. They were eating candy and Gabbert asked for some and Ponder, well i didn't want to give mine up, but okay here you go?

Fred Savage
04-29-2011, 06:49 PM
I agree Mr. Unit. I think he is one of the cutest guys in the draft.

DenverFan1974
04-29-2011, 06:51 PM
Ponder @ #12 was a serious stretch but I still like him because of everything he brings to the table. I wouldn't have drafted before Kaepernick just because of durability issues which is a significant issue and even more concerning at the Vikes which couldn't keep anyone off of Favre. If they shore up the line he may be successful, if not he's a back-up in two years.

KCJ58
04-29-2011, 06:53 PM
I agree Mr. Unit. I think he is one of the cutest guys in the draft.


YES YES YES, It's FRED SAVAGE!

fenikz
04-29-2011, 07:15 PM
the d-unit seal of doom

D-Unit
04-29-2011, 08:29 PM
the d-unit seal of doom
Too late. I already used it up on hyping up Patrick Peterson. ;)

brasho
04-29-2011, 08:31 PM
I've seen enough of Ponder, his noodle arm, and the hype he got undeservedly at FSU to know that at #12 he was a risk.

1) He doesn't have a great arm. His arm is average at best. The injuries may have unfairly made his arm look worse than it was.... but that's another issue/

2) Too frequently injured. He's not big, he wasn't durable in college, there's no reason to believe he will ever be healthy in the NFL.

3) I didn't see how he performed all that well at the Senior Bowl. His biggest play was also his worst play, the 40+ yard eephus pitch he threw to Hankerson should have a) never been thrown b) been shot like a duck shortly after it left his hand. Bad decision, worse throw, terrible arm strength shown on that particular play.

4) Book smarts has never been a great predictor of NFL success. He has had some incredibly boneheaded throws/decisions over his time that suggests he doesn't have a great mind while in the pocket.

If he can stay semi-healthy he could someday be a Jeff Garcia-type WCO QB, but he'll never be elite.

brasho
04-29-2011, 08:33 PM
Ponder @ #12 was a serious stretch but I still like him because of everything he brings to the table. I wouldn't have drafted before Kaepernick just because of durability issues which is a significant issue and even more concerning at the Vikes which couldn't keep anyone off of Favre. If they shore up the line he may be successful, if not he's a back-up in two years.

CK is soooo athletic that he'll be able to survive on that as his own checkdowns and be a decent rookie... factor in the fact that he will be leading Harbaugh's offense with Gore, Crabtree, and Davis and I think a star is born!

yo123
04-29-2011, 08:39 PM
I've come around to the pick a little. If they liked him and thought someone would snatch him up if they traded down then whatever. The Kyle Rudolph pick was worse.

Giants34
04-29-2011, 09:17 PM
lol id disagree with this but id get an "infraction" on the DL. great call...

wogitalia
04-29-2011, 10:44 PM
7) Strong supporting cast. Now here is the real kicker that puts everything over the top. Ponder is going to a place where he can succeed right away. Handing the ball off to Adrian Peterson and targets like Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Berrian and Camarillo... not to mention a solid TE in Shianco... Ponder is landing in the best situation of all the other QBs in this draft.

You seem to have forgotten a major part of the supporting cast... he has no OL in front of him. The Vikes have one of the very worst OLs in the NFL, with a particularly special level of ineptitude in pass protection.

I like Ponder as a player, I just don't like reaching so much for him, I think he is the 2nd best QB in this draft, he doesn't have the upside of a couple of the other guys, but he also doesn't have the character issues or flaws.

But to reach on a fragile QB with plenty of injury issues so you can put him behind a pathetic line, a line that managed to finally end Favre's career by not blocking, turns what should have been a safe prospect into a massive risk.

I still like Ponder, I just don't like where we picked him or that we passed on some serious OL/DB talent to do so. Especially given how comparably little it cost the Saints to trade back in to where I think Ponder would still be available.

the natural
04-29-2011, 11:01 PM
"Don't know about the "Alpha male" bit.

I mean what does that statement even mean? Dominant personality. They were eating candy and Gabbert asked for some and Ponder, well i didn't want to give mine up, but okay here you go?

Alpha male is alpha male. He brought it up I didn't. Gabbert was the man at the Phoenix API workouts. Terry Shea and others mentioned the fact. Not meant as a crack at Ponder. I like him next best to Gabbert among the QBs. Very underrated, and probably does some things that Gabbert can't. But yeah, Ponder would give Gabbert the candy.

Iamcanadian
04-29-2011, 11:16 PM
Now that some of the dust has settled, I'm convinced that Christian Ponder will have the brightest career out of the QBs selected in this year's draft. People can say the Vikings reached, but their board was put together for their own team. Not for the other 31.

I disagree, when Locker went #8 to Tennessee, Minny panicked and took Ponder way ahead of his value even for a QB.
Ponder will succeed because:

1) Intelligence. Graduated in 2.5 years with a 3.7 GPA and already has a Master's degree. Goes to show the kind of commitment and work ethic he has off the field. It's also a good sign to show that a high ceiling on his learning capacity, which is crucial for the QB position.

No argument there, he is a very bright guy and likely a very hard worker.

2) Strong arm. Ponder's arm is plenty strong to make all the NFL throws. If you don't know it, watch him.

Here you are wrong, he doesn't have a really strong arm but should be OK in a WCO.

3) Elusive on his feet. He's not a runner like Newton, Tebow, Vick... but he's comfortable making plays on his feet and escaping pressure. In a lot of ways he reminds me of how Romo used to be. Romo runs a lot less now days, but he used to be a magician back there. So while he uses his feet well, he doesn't take off and scramble on his first instinct. Big plus.

Again, I agree, he is more pro ready but his upside is limited.

3) Ponder comes from a pro style system. His footwork out from underneath center is smooth and automatic. He doesn't have to think about his footwork. It's just natural, unlike his peers coming from spread option systems who don't have the repetitiion advantage.

No argument.

4) No accuracy question marks. While Locker and Newton have been highly criticized of this, nobody says that about Ponder.

They do question his deep ball where he isn't as accurate as you would like. Solid on short and intermediate throws but lacks the arm strength to be consistent on deep throws.

5) He's a gunslinger. He's got that Brett Favre, never die attitude. He looks to extend plays and make things happen out of nothing. While that can be good many times, it has lead to some of his INTs... but the Vikings will love him for it.

I think he is much more of a possible above average game manager, his ceiling is Hasselbach but his floor is very average.

6) Alpha male. This is important to me. Ponder sparkles those good looks that all those confident lead dogs have. People like him and gravitate him. People want to follow him. He's an easy guy to place confidence in. When he leads, you want to listen. That's the type he is. Not just because of his looks, but the complete package. Looks, smarts, athletic... fricken... our society loves those kinds of people. That's just the way it is.

I have no problem with his leadership qualities.

7) Strong supporting cast. Now here is the real kicker that puts everything over the top. Ponder is going to a place where he can succeed right away. Handing the ball off to Adrian Peterson and targets like Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Berrian and Camarillo... not to mention a solid TE in Shianco... Ponder is landing in the best situation of all the other QBs in this draft.

I agree, he has some advantages although his OL is aging.

So before you start knocking the pick (all you Locker lovers who praised Tennessee), realize you might be knocking the best QB to come out of this draft!!! They didn't reach. They got a damn STEAL!

I again beg to disagree, still think it was more of a panic pick, it doesn't mean he will flop but it was a reach IMO. His ceiling is nowhere near Newton's or Gabbert's or Locker's but he can possibly be a decent starter but not special.

jayceheathman
04-29-2011, 11:19 PM
I like McShay's quote that goes something like "For such a smart guy, he sure makes a lot of stupid decisions on the field." haha

I think Locker is going to be the best QB of this class.

SF Dolphin Fan
04-30-2011, 12:08 AM
I tend to agree. I love Ponder and I think Minnesota with all of its offensive weapons is the perfect fit for him. I have long believed that Ponder is the most NFL ready of this quarterback class. The key for him will be staying healthy.

BuddyCHRIST
04-30-2011, 12:25 AM
What I don't get is projecting someone as a game manager, or his ceiling as a QB etc. Is physical tools ever what separates the good QBs from the greats? Joe Montana had below average physical tools. Tom Brady wasn't projected as more than a game manager.

People like to say "Won't win you games, but won't lose them either" but if you are smart and make the right throws you will win your team alot of games. Its not like its Peyton Manning's physical ability that separates him from the pack.

And people knock Ponder's decision making sometimes, but go look at his junior year when he had a veteran WR corp, no one questioned his decisions then. Bad WR play often times makes a QB look poor. Theres a reason Jimbo is always ripping his WRs a new one.

draftgod
04-30-2011, 02:22 AM
He will be better than newton and gabbert. That I do not doubt. Locker and dalton? Idk about them. Even kaepernick working under harbaugh could have a better career. Ponder's injury bug is a big concern and you wonder how he'll handle nfl pressure since he didn't handle ncaa pressure well.

Iamcanadian
04-30-2011, 02:40 AM
He will be better than newton and gabbert. That I do not doubt. Locker and dalton? Idk about them. Even kaepernick working under harbaugh could have a better career. Ponder's injury bug is a big concern and you wonder how he'll handle nfl pressure since he didn't handle ncaa pressure well.

What makes you a prophet, I like how you throw out opinion with no details.

Bucs4242
04-30-2011, 04:22 PM
Ive watched FSU throughout Ponder's career, the guy has been overlooked throughout the run up to the draft, and itrs good to see him be selected in the 1st round

He has size, athleticism, football IQ, and he is a very good passer

I dont know where these morons Kiper and McSHAY get off saying he has no arm. He doesnt have a cannon, but his arm is more than adequate

Im not even a big FSU fan anymore, I root for South Florida, but this guy is going ot be good

EvilNixon
04-30-2011, 04:25 PM
BTW that "pro style" system is the famed Bobby Petrino offense

It actually produced Jamarcus Russell's junior numbers...

Roddoliver
04-30-2011, 11:34 PM
The Bills, Bengals, Cardinals, 49ers, Titans and Redskins did not think Blaine Gabbert is a franchise QB worthy of a top 10 pick. Smart organizations. Poor Jaguars. It will be fun to watch.

gpngc
04-30-2011, 11:42 PM
The Bills, Bengals, Cardinals, 49ers, Titans and Redskins did not think Blaine Gabbert is a franchise QB worthy of a top 10 pick. Smart organizations. Poor Jaguars. It will be fun to watch.

It's a great point.

That's what is so telling about ALL of these QBs (minus Newton). Four teams lacking a franchise QB declined to take them.

ElectricEye
04-30-2011, 11:42 PM
It actually produced Jamarcus Russell's junior numbers...

The inconsistency people view the Petrino offense with is really astounding. A few years ago, when it was an issue, I heard very compelling evidence that supports that you should not be enamored with some of the statistics that come out of a Petrino/Jimbo scheme and was inclined to believe them. Now that another few quarterbacks are coming out of that system and people want them to be good, it's almost like that's all shoved aside and forgotten about. I'm not saying that either Mallett or Ponder can't be successful because of this trap, but it really is something that shouldn't fall outside the breadth of the evaluation process. It's easy, high percentage throws that cloud up completion percentages and hide accuracy issues the way the spread does. We can almost all agree that Joey Harrington wasn't an accurate quarterback at the NFL level...yet under the Petrino system he actually put up grossly different statistical profile than he did under any other, even "reviving" his career for a time, getting him another year in the league before washing out.

General Zod
05-01-2011, 12:56 AM
Trent Dilfer hated the pick and ripped it to pieces.

I can say as a Vikings fan, this made me feel a little better about the pick. lol

FuzzyGopher
05-01-2011, 01:32 AM
Dilfer also said Newton had the best workout he's ever seen and talked up Greg McElroy like he was Johnny Unitas reincarnated. I take what he says with a grain of salt. He did eviscerate Ponder in a radio interview for whatever reason, I'm thinking Ponder killed his dog and ****** his mom.

WCH
05-01-2011, 01:40 AM
Dilfer also said Newton had the best workout he's ever seen and talked up Greg McElroy like he was Johnny Unitas reincarnated. I take what he says with a grain of salt. He did eviscerate Ponder in a radio interview for whatever reason, I'm thinking Ponder killed his dog and ****** his mom.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that Dilfer sucked as an NFL QB because he's an idiot -- he had all of the physical tools.

It's not that he's always wrong, it's just that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

BigBanger
05-01-2011, 01:59 AM
Now that some of the dust has settled, I'm convinced that Christian Ponder will have the brightest career out of the QBs selected in this year's draft. People can say the Vikings reached, but their board was put together for their own team. Not for the other 31.

Ponder will succeed because:

1) Intelligence. Graduated in 2.5 years with a 3.7 GPA and already has a Master's degree. Goes to show the kind of committment and work ethic he has off the field. It's also a good sign to show that a high ceiling on his learning capacity, which is crucial for the QB position.

2) Strong arm. Ponder's arm is plenty strong to make all the NFL throws. If you don't know it, watch him.

3) Elusive on his feet. He's not a runner like Newton, Tebow, Vick... but he's comfortable making plays on his feet and escaping pressure. In a lot of ways he reminds me of how Romo used to be. Romo runs a lot less now days, but he used to be a magician back there. So while he uses his feet well, he doesn't take off and scramble on his first instinct. Big plus.

3) Ponder comes from a pro style system. His footwork out from underneath center is smooth and automatic. He doesn't have to think about his footwork. It's just natural, unlike his peers coming from spread option systems who don't have the repetitiion advantage.

4) No accuracy question marks. While Locker and Newton have been highly criticized of this, nobody says that about Ponder.

5) He's a gunslinger. He's got that Brett Favre, never die attitude. He looks to extend plays and make things happen out of nothing. While that can be good many times, it has lead to some of his INTs... but the Vikings will love him for it.

6) Alpha male. This is important to me. Ponder sparkles those good looks that all those confident lead dogs have. People like him and gravitate him. People want to follow him. He's an easy guy to place confidence in. When he leads, you want to listen. That's the type he is. Not just because of his looks, but the complete package. Looks, smarts, athletic... fricken... our society loves those kinds of people. That's just the way it is.

7) Strong supporting cast. Now here is the real kicker that puts everything over the top. Ponder is going to a place where he can succeed right away. Handing the ball off to Adrian Peterson and targets like Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Berrian and Camarillo... not to mention a solid TE in Shianco... Ponder is landing in the best situation of all the other QBs in this draft.

So before you start knocking the pick (all you Locker lovers who praised Tennessee), realize you might be knocking the best QB to come out of this draft!!! They didn't reach. They got a damn STEAL!

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. I was expecting some kind of argument stating that Ponder was worthy of the pick because of his physical attributes. Yet, there is little mention of his physical attributes and more time spent on his good looks. I've never heard someone say a QB was going to be successful because he's good looking, but there's always a first for something.

This just seems like you're taking the same stance the Vikings were. You're just taking a shot in the dark and hoping for the best. To come back in four years and say, "I told you so."

1. The first reason for his success in the NFL is... he graduated in 2.5 years? That's great and you want a smart QB, but it shouldn't be the first thing that pops into your head. Being a Rhodes Scholar didn't help the overrated S from Florida St. a few years ago (his name is escaping me at the moment). On the field, he had no instincts and took terrible angles to the ball. He can be the smartest man in the NFL, but it wont help him be a successful football player. It's good that Ponder is smart. It shows that he wont be hindered from doing the "homework" or "work" aspect of football.

2. He has a west cost system arm. Nothing to really hang your hat on. You would prefer a guy with a stronger arm. He has to rely on anticipation, throwing receivers open and being crafty with ball placement and timing.

3. He is NFL ready. Don't compare him to the other guys though. He's no longer in a competition against Cam Newton or Andy Dalton. His draft status is completed. Now he's being compared to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Josh Freeman, ect. If Cam Newton turns into JaMarcus Russell, it would help him if he's a career backup. He was however coming from a very watered down system that relied heavily on WR screens and quick passes to RBs in the flats, which would suck CBs up close to the line and create large voids in the defense for the intermediate to deep routes. He is comfortable taking NFL drop backs and making NFL reads, but his system inflated some numbers and put him in favorable situations. It did help JaMarcus Russell who had a very low football IQ.

4. Yes, he's accurate.

5. He doesn't have Favre's arm strength. You can't be a gunslinger without a gun. That leads to trouble and more INTs. No fan will want to see him trying to throw passes into windows his arm doesn't have the strength to complete. he already has question decision making.

6. I'm going to keep my thoughts to myself. I'll just say that's a little weird.

7. Ponder is behind a terrible offensive line. He does have some nice weapons at the skill positions, but Minnesota better get him some protection up front. This is a league where teams pick from the middle of the pack one season and then have the #1 overall pick the next season (See the Carolina Panthers this past year). This team is an aging team. Rice has injuries issues and Peterson is a violent shot away from being on the IR for weeks at a time. Harvin also has a small frame and takes big shots, misses games.

Last year the Rams had a terrible offensive line. That was a reason people thought you shouldn't put a QB with injury concerns behind that kind of line. A year later, and the Rams have two young bookend tackles and a strong offensive line. It quickly went from a major weakness in 2009 to a major strength in 2010. They should have an even better OL in 2011 as they gain more experience.


I don't think Ponder is a franchise QB. I think you're looking at a game manager type that could start for you in a pinch. More of a Top 20 caliber QB than a Top 10 caliber QB. I think his ceiling is completely pedestrian. One of those QBs that starts for a team, but a QB that a team is always looking to upgrade. I think he'll be a David Garrard or Mark Sanchez type QB. If surrounded by a lot of talent, could be a solid pro that wins some games, but a guy that will ultimately hold you back from advancing in the playoffs. Which is more of a third round or fourth round QB.

D-Unit
05-01-2011, 06:51 AM
I don't understand the purpose of this thread. I was expecting some kind of argument stating that Ponder was worthy of the pick because of his physical attributes. Yet, there is little mention of his physical attributes and more time spent on his good looks. I've never heard someone say a QB was going to be successful because he's good looking, but there's always a first for something.

So you pick out the #6 point (which is more about personality/leadership than looks; looks being a part of the reason because of the way society views/treats people...and that being one attributing factor of him having confidence/leadership skills) and overexaggerate that fact, while downplaying the fact that I mentioned the other parts of his strengths including intelligence, arm strength, mobility, accuracy, and system experience? Come on BigBanger. If you're gonna rip me, at least be accurate. You don't have to twist the story, just debate it straight up.

This just seems like you're taking the same stance the Vikings were. You're just taking a shot in the dark and hoping for the best. To come back in four years and say, "I told you so."

Whatever it may seem to you, I'm sorry, I cannot control. All I can say is that if you think I went out and researched the thoughts and feelings of the Vikings organization on the pick or overheard them and just copied them, then that is simply incorrect. These are my own thoughts. Is it a shot in the dark? Ummm...yeah, I guess... Just like it would be a shot in the dark for anyone to know what any other player in the draft will turn out as well... so should we just smash everyone who gives out grades on teams' drafts? Because hell, it's all the same...just a shot in the dark afterall.... If you think I care about coming back to this thread down the line just so I can puff up my chest, then I can assure you... I won't.

Here's what I do care about though... I do love taking the side of the minority and defending it to stir interesting conversation on the forum. I just don't like following the herd all the time... Sorry... if people want to bash Cam Newton for what I see as wrong reasons, then I'll take a stance against it... If people want to say Eric Berry is the best DB in the last decade... I'll take a stance against it. If people want to bash Taylor Mays, I'll take a stance against it... If people want to predict failure for Reggie Bush... I'll take a stance against it. If someone wants to bash Bill Parcells... I'll take a stance against.... I like to keep the pot stirring. I like to have interesting sports debates. I like the emotion behind taking a stand for something that goes against the grain. I'm not always right, nor am I always wrong, but I am always looking to entertain good discussion... and the purpose is not for self-glory to look back on it and take some imaginary e-credit. My self esteem is perfectly fine without needing that kind of attention, thank you very much.

1. The first reason for his success in the NFL is... he graduated in 2.5 years? That's great and you want a smart QB, but it shouldn't be the first thing that pops into your head. Being a Rhodes Scholar didn't help the overrated S from Florida St. a few years ago (his name is escaping me at the moment). On the field, he had no instincts and took terrible angles to the ball. He can be the smartest man in the NFL, but it wont help him be a successful football player. It's good that Ponder is smart. It shows that he wont be hindered from doing the "homework" or "work" aspect of football.

I'll tell you what. Smarts IS at the top for me. If you got a dumb QB, with all the talent in the world, and a QB who is smart, but isn't the most talented, I'd take the latter, all day, every day. ...and mentioning his advancement in schooling isn't about saying "wow, he's so book smart, that's gonna equate to him being successful in the NFL". Maybe I need to clarify more to eliminate your confusion or your want to spin it from the point I was actually trying to make. The fact that he can handle the classroom is exactly what you said in your last sentence. Basically that he has the capacity and discipline to learn, study and increase his knowledge of the game when it comes time for him to take on the task of becoming a highly intelligent and well versed NFL QB. Quarterbacks that have learning disabilities or learn slow, limit their games and even limit what their teams can do.

2. He has a west cost system arm. Nothing to really hang your hat on. You would prefer a guy with a stronger arm. He has to rely on anticipation, throwing receivers open and being crafty with ball placement and timing.

He's not Jeff George, John Elway or Brett Favre... I'd give that title to Mallett... but before Ponder's injury he could sling it 65-70 yards with ease. I think he'll get back there if he hasn't already. At this point, it's simply not a concern. Plus, strength is the easiest thing for an athlete to increase... unlike natural born athleticism and hand-eye coordination.

3. He is NFL ready. Don't compare him to the other guys though. He's no longer in a competition against Cam Newton or Andy Dalton. His draft status is completed. Now he's being compared to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Drew Brees, Josh Freeman, ect. If Cam Newton turns into JaMarcus Russell, it would help him if he's a career backup. He was however coming from a very watered down system that relied heavily on WR screens and quick passes to RBs in the flats, which would suck CBs up close to the line and create large voids in the defense for the intermediate to deep routes. He is comfortable taking NFL drop backs and making NFL reads, but his system inflated some numbers and put him in favorable situations. It did help JaMarcus Russell who had a very low football IQ.

Ummm... not sure where you're going there. I didn't say he's NFL ready, but if that's what you're implying then... okaaay.... I did emphasize that he's at an advantage because his system at FSU is similar to a Pro-style system that has him taking snaps from under center. He won't be held back in the same way the QBs from spread offenses will when it comes to the footwork involved. I'm not gonna act like I know the intricacies of Jimbo Fisher's system, nor am I gonna assume that it's a straight copy of Petrino's offense. I'm pretty sure Fisher has his own creative mind and that while he may take some things from Petrino, it's not a duplicate in entirety. That said, I didn't even bring that up, nor did I make mention of his stats to prove a point. So you're taking your own turns in the conversation there.



4. Yes, he's accurate.

5. He doesn't have Favre's arm strength. You can't be a gunslinger without a gun. That leads to trouble and more INTs. No fan will want to see him trying to throw passes into windows his arm doesn't have the strength to complete. he already has question decision making.

Being a gunslinger is a mentality, not ability. Arm strength is irrelevant. A little kid in pop warner can be a gunslinger. It's the way he thinks on his feet in pressure situations. Will he take the sack, or try to extend the play? Will he purposely throw it out of bounds or force it at the cost of making a mistake? ...I covered arm strength earlier. Here I was talking about his approach as a QB. ..and I did mention the pros and cons of being a gunslinger.

6. I'm going to keep my thoughts to myself. I'll just say that's a little weird.

Feel free to do what you want. My opinion is that I think in today's society "looks" have a lot to do with both outside perception and inside self esteem. The Alpha male concept is a positive factor for a QB and I think he's got it. It's hard to be an Alpha male when you are ugly. Not saying you gotta be a stud muffin either... normal works just fine... but ugly definitely makes it difficult to get guys to follow...in many walks of life. ...unless you got $$$.

7. Ponder is behind a terrible offensive line. He does have some nice weapons at the skill positions, but Minnesota better get him some protection up front. This is a league where teams pick from the middle of the pack one season and then have the #1 overall pick the next season (See the Carolina Panthers this past year). This team is an aging team. Rice has injuries issues and Peterson is a violent shot away from being on the IR for weeks at a time. Harvin also has a small frame and takes big shots, misses games.

Last year the Rams had a terrible offensive line. That was a reason people thought you shouldn't put a QB with injury concerns behind that kind of line. A year later, and the Rams have two young bookend tackles and a strong offensive line. It quickly went from a major weakness in 2009 to a major strength in 2010. They should have an even better OL in 2011 as they gain more experience.

My point remains. Ponder's supporting cast is strong. Strong enough that I perceive it to be a strength and advantage for him to be the best QB to come out of this draft class. Significantly better than what the other QBs with starting opportunities in the near future are getting into. The OL has problems that they are trying to correct, but this thread wasn't about Pondering being the best QB in year 1. I'm talking career. Whatever weaknesses they have on the OL today, may not be there later. When I look at the QB that Ponder is and what he brings to the table and I combine that with the kind of talent I see in Minnesota, I think the end result will be a big success.

I don't think Ponder is a franchise QB. I think you're looking at a game manager type that could start for you in a pinch. More of a Top 20 caliber QB than a Top 10 caliber QB. I think his ceiling is completely pedestrian. One of those QBs that starts for a team, but a QB that a team is always looking to upgrade. I think he'll be a David Garrard or Mark Sanchez type QB. If surrounded by a lot of talent, could be a solid pro that wins some games, but a guy that will ultimately hold you back from advancing in the playoffs. Which is more of a third round or fourth round QB.

Getting away from the point I was making... I never said that Ponder will necessarily go on to be a franchise QB, but I am saying he's going to be the best QB to come out of this draft. Two different things. Subtle, but significant. If he becomes a franchise QB, awesome. I wasn't saying he was or wasn't. I'm saying, don't bash the pick the Vikings made at 12. Their big board is arranged according to 1 team. Theirs. Whatever anyone else may say about them reaching is based on their own perception and their own disregard to risk.

Comments in bold.

J-Mike88
05-01-2011, 07:17 AM
I agree with the Patrick Ramsey comparison. I also see a little of John David Booty (I thought he was better than Ponder is at this point) and Gus Frerotte on Ponder. Although I agree with FredSavage above that Ponder is much cuter than Ramsey, and certainly the goon that is Gus.

All in all, it's a terrible pick for the Vikings. But I will say this: Except for the minor note that the Vikings OL is shaky, shaky, he does go to a team with better weapons than any of the other rookie QBs who are expected to start very soon. Adrian Peterson at RB, Sidney Rice & Percy Harvin at WR, and Shiancoe at TE is a nice nucleus of receiving options.

As a Cheesehead, this pick at #12 gave me great pleasure, but the pick at #13 didn't.

nepg
05-01-2011, 08:12 AM
It's baffling that teams can sit down and watch Gabbert, Ponder, and Mallett on film and take the two formers over the latter. Ponder played like crap his entire career. He's gotten by completely on his reputation as a top recruit. His supporting cast at Florida State was probably better than what the other QBs in this draft were working with, and he failed consistently.

Maybe he's Josh Freeman...even if he is, Mallett is still better. Ponder seemed like one of those guys you draft in the 3rd or 4th round who might turn into something more than a good backup. JD Booty (good call), Erik Ainge, Kevin O'Connell, etc.

I had him #7
1. Locker
2. Mallett
3. Newton
4. Gabbert
5. Kaepernick
6. Stanzi
7. Ponder
8. Yates
9. Dalton
10. Devlin

BigBanger
05-01-2011, 09:17 AM
All I can say is that if you think I went out and researched the thoughts and feelings of the Vikings organization on the pick or overheard them and just copied them, then that is simply incorrect. These are my own thoughts.
I understand they are your own thoughts. I was alluding to the fact that the Vikings probably wanted Ponder in round 2, or to trade up / down in the 20s of round 1 and take him at better "value." Instead, they seen the run on QBs -- 3 in the Top 10 -- and panicked, which is something they have a history of doing (reaching to fill a position of need). They probably (and yes, I'm just guessing) felt like the Redskins or someone else behind them would draft Ponder. Instead of getting a Top 10 caliber player at 12th overall, now they hit the panic button and draft a second round caliber QB (in my opinion 3rd or 4th round QB), because they NEED a QB. So, basically I'm saying, "They took a shot in the dark." Which is what I feel you are doing with this thread... taking a shot in the dark, and hoping for the best. No real conviction. No real justification. Just a glimmer of hope.

I was saying that it seemed like you were jumping on their ship because everyone was saying this was one of the worst picks in the draft. Which you admitted to doing:

Here's what I do care about though... I do love taking the side of the minority and defending it to stir interesting conversation on the forum.
I was implying, without saying it directly, that I felt you gave a weak argument and were taking the Vikings side just for the sake of taking their side. Not because you necessarily believe Ponder will be a good NFL QB, which you also admitted to doing. When I see this response, I assume that's all this was: Just defending the minority.

I like to keep the pot stirring. I like to have interesting sports debates. I like the emotion behind taking a stand for something that goes against the grain.
Again, more towards my original point. I didn't feel any sense of "emotion" behind your original post. If felt like you were thinking, "Well, since no one else is defending him, I guess I will." I've never heard someone mention a player's good / bad looks either, so it felt like you were reaching for reasons.


Is it a shot in the dark? Ummm...yeah, I guess... Just like it would be a shot in the dark for anyone to know what any other player in the draft will turn out as well... so should we just smash everyone who gives out grades on teams' drafts? Because hell, it's all the same...just a shot in the dark afterall....
I don't give grades on drafts personally, and I don't pay attention to things like that. I wouldn't bother bashing people. I could really care less if Mel Kiper like's a certain teams draft. Doesn't really mean anything. That's main stream media garbage that has no effect on anything. You look at a draft 5 years after it happened, not the day it ended. Then you find out who had a good draft or bad draft. I think Gabbert is going to be, without question, the best QB from this draft. That's because I think he's the best QB, not because, "Oh, he's in Jacksonville now and he's in a good situation." He has the most upside. He'll be ready to start by mid season, and he should be capable of taking over in year two. As long as he's not having a front office that is constantly changing offensive coordinators or head coaches, then he should be fine.


I'll tell you what. Smarts IS at the top for me. If you got a dumb QB, with all the talent in the world, and a QB who is smart, but isn't the most talented, I'd take the latter, all day, every day. ...and mentioning his advancement in schooling isn't about saying "wow, he's so book smart, that's gonna equate to him being successful in the NFL".
Smart is a good quality. I'm not saying it's not, but you need the physical tools first and foremost. Kellen Moore is a smart kid. That's great, but he has the weakest arm I may ever seen. He has no chance. I don't care how smart he is. He's not an NFL QB. He's not. Never will be. Not even a backup. I simply disagree with it being the top priority. Not to say that it isn't important, but if you don't have a strong arm and good accuracy (and you can have everything else, like Jake Locker does), you will fail in the NFL. Locker has everything but accuracy from inside the pocket, and that is critical. All that should go ahead of how smart you are. Ask Brady Quinn. I don't think people are up in arms about Ponder going 12th because they're worried about his intelligence or ability to comprehend a playbook. There's another 1st round QB with that stigma. I was expecting you to come out and praise his strengths as a QB. Talk about how his talents fit into the Vikings scheme. Talk about his accuracy, his anticipation, his timing, his high football I.Q., his ability to read defenses, going through progressions... not that he graduated in 2.5 years.


I think he'll get back there if he hasn't already. At this point, it's simply not a concern. Plus, strength is the easiest thing for an athlete to increase... unlike natural born athleticism and hand-eye coordination.
His arm strength shouldn't be a concern per se, but it's not necessarily a strength of his game. Not a huge weakness either, but weak enough to limit him. We disagree.

Ummm... not sure where you're going there. I didn't say he's NFL ready, but if that's what you're implying then... okaaay.... I did emphasize that he's at an advantage because his system at FSU is similar to a Pro-style system that has him taking snaps from under center. He won't be held back in the same way the QBs from spread offenses will when it comes to the footwork involved.
NFL drop backs are a learned trait. It takes work and repetition. That's it. Just because some of these guys haven't done it, doesn't mean they are incapable of doing it. Its practice. That's it. The other QBs wont be "held back." Initially? Of course, but in four years no one is going to be talking about Newton's footwork or Gabbert's footwork being the reason for their failure, if they were to fail.



Ponder's supporting cast is strong. Strong enough that I perceive it to be a strength and advantage for him to be the best QB to come out of this draft class.

The OL has problems that they are trying to correct, but this thread wasn't about Pondering being the best QB in year 1. I'm talking career. Whatever weaknesses they have on the OL today, may not be there later.
These are contradictory. Do you know the state of the Vikings four or five years from now? No, so his supporting cast means nothing other than potential early success. His offensive line, right now, is not very good. What if the Vikings are picking in the top 5 in two years? Is his strong rookie supporting cast going to mean anything? You said it yourself though. Whatever OL problems they have today, may not be there later. Just like whatever strengths they have today, may not be there later. To hang your hat on the talent level of the team that drafts him in that same year... it will not be any precursor for his success. The Falcons were picking in the top 3 when they drafted Ryan. The Falcons were an 11 win playoff team the following year.

I never said that Ponder will necessarily go on to be a franchise QB, but I am saying he's going to be the best QB to come out of this draft. Two different things. Subtle, but significant. If he becomes a franchise QB, awesome. I wasn't saying he was or wasn't. I'm saying, don't bash the pick the Vikings made at 12. Their big board is arranged according to 1 team. Theirs. Whatever anyone else may say about them reaching is based on their own perception and their own disregard to risk.
You take a franchise QB at 12. Ponder isn't and wont be a franchise QB. You're saying he's going to be the best QB from this draft, but you're not saying he's going to be a franchise QB? Then what are you saying? Are you saying he's going to be the least worst of the bunch? Is that a compliment? Should the Viking be happy with a completely average QB just because every other QB from this drafted turned out to be garbage? The Vikings are not in competition with the Jaguars, Titans or Panthers as far as having the best QB from this class. It wont really matter if Newton is a perennial Pro Bowler. The Vikings better have drafted their future signal caller for the next 10 to 15 years, and the guy that leads them deep into the playoffs and gives them a chance at a Super Bowl on a regular basis.

That's why I bash their pick. Telling me not to bash it though? I thought you wanted debate? Right? Debate? Should everyone just nod in silence? Have no reaction? If Ponder turns into a Pro Bowl QB that takes Minnesota to the playoffs on a semi-regular basis, then they'll get the last laugh. They'll be right. If Ponder turns into a guy that only manages a couple winning seasons and makes a quick exit in his only playoff appearance, then he's a bust and it's a terrible pick. You don't draft "just another guy" at the QB position in the Top 15, or even the first round entirely.



To have a well reasoned argument you will first have to say what kind of career you are expecting from Ponder. Not some vague comment about him being the best of this QB class. Secondly, you'll have to explain what kind of career you're expecting of the other QBs. Thirdly, you would then have to state why every other QB is not going to be as good as Ponder. That would take a lot of work, but you're the one that made the overly ambitious thread.

BigJohn98
05-01-2011, 09:43 AM
It's baffling that teams can sit down and watch Gabbert, Ponder, and Mallett on film and take the two formers over the latter. Ponder played like crap his entire career. He's gotten by completely on his reputation as a top recruit. His supporting cast at Florida State was probably better than what the other QBs in this draft were working with, and he failed consistently.

Maybe he's Josh Freeman...even if he is, Mallett is still better. Ponder seemed like one of those guys you draft in the 3rd or 4th round who might turn into something more than a good backup. JD Booty (good call), Erik Ainge, Kevin O'Connell, etc.

I had him #7
1. Locker
2. Mallett
3. Newton
4. Gabbert
5. Kaepernick
6. Stanzi
7. Ponder
8. Yates
9. Dalton
10. Devlin

I can tell you've never watched him or read anything about him. Played like crap his whole career? Are you serious? Maybe his sophomore year, where it was his first year starting, but he was having a Heisman-type season in 2009 until he got hurt. He's never had a great supporting cast. His receivers have been average and inconsistent since he was the starter. And he was never a top recruit coming out of high school.

Actually watch someone play before posting a bunch of dumb ****.

nepg
05-01-2011, 10:20 AM
I can tell you've never watched him or read anything about him. Played like crap his whole career? Are you serious? Maybe his sophomore year, where it was his first year starting, but he was having a Heisman-type season in 2009 until he got hurt. He's never had a great supporting cast. His receivers have been average and inconsistent since he was the starter. And he was never a top recruit coming out of high school.

Actually watch someone play before posting a bunch of dumb ****.

ROFL at the Heisman comment.

*20 minutes later - finally recovered from laughing enough to type again*

Ponder looked really bad at times throughout his career. There's no getting around it. He was a solid college QB, but nothing special. Average everything and injury prone. He's the 7th-best QB in this draft and for good reason.

And he was the #14 QB recruit in a class that included Bradford, Juice Williams, Stafford, Mustain, Freeman, Devlin, McElroy, Riley, and Potts. Considering that company, I'd say he's a fairly highly regarded recruit.

Rabscuttle
05-01-2011, 10:53 AM
He needs to be more selective with some of his throws, but he has an understanding of the game that neither Newton or Locker have. He holds the back seven with his eyes, does a good job of not getting his receivers killed and gives his receivers a chance to make plays.

He needs to get the ball out sooner to have success on Sundays, both for getting the ball to receivers as they come open and for his own longevity.

The arm is fine for most situations and is accurate, his mechanics and footwork are good, just needs to read what's in front of him that split second sooner.

D-Unit
05-01-2011, 11:02 AM
I understand they are your own thoughts. I was alluding to the fact that the Vikings probably wanted Ponder in round 2, or to trade up / down in the 20s of round 1 and take him at better "value." Instead, they seen the run on QBs -- 3 in the Top 10 -- and panicked, which is something they have a history of doing (reaching to fill a position of need). They probably (and yes, I'm just guessing) felt like the Redskins or someone behind them would draft Ponder. Instead of getting a Top 10 caliber player at 12th overall, now they hit the panic button and draft a second round QB (in my opinion 3rd or 4th round QB), because they NEED a QB. So, basically I'm saying, "They took a shot in the dark." Which is what I feel you were doing with this thread... taking a shot in the dark.

Like I said... they have a board arranged for one team. Their own. Doesn't make it wrong or panic at all if they took they guy they rated the highest according to their needs. Why is it labeled "panic" instead of "smart"? Why do they have to risk their guy getting taken? Say Ponder goes... then are they smart for missing on him because the value wasn't right according to some imaginary board of the masses? That's ridiculous! They got their guy. A guy who had a lot more to offer compared to what was left. That's not panic. That's safe and smart.

I was saying that it seemed like you were jumping on their ship because everyone was saying this was one of the worst picks in the draft. Which you admitted to doing:

Yeah, and I disagreed with those saying it was wrong.

I was implying, without saying it directly, that I felt you gave a weak argument and were taking the Vikings side just for the sake of taking their side. Not because you necessarily believe Ponder will be a good NFL QB, which you also admitted to doing. When I see this response, I assume that's all this was. Just defending the minority.

Nah. I believe in everything that I said. I took it up to voice my opinion even though it's not a popular thought. Your assumptions need correction, so here I am clarifying it for you.


Again, more towards my original point. I didn't feel any sense of emotion behind your original post. If felt like you were thinking, "Well, since no one else is defending him, I guess I will." I've never heard someone mention a player's looks either, so it felt like you were reaching for reasons.

Well, now you can tell that you were wrong. I strongly believe in my words in the original post. ...and there's plenty of logic to support the reason why I listed his "looks". Not a reach. Just something that goes overlooked by many, including you.

I don't give grades on drafts personally and I don't pay attention to things like that, so I wouldn't bother bashing people. I could really care less if Mel Kiper like's a certain teams draft. Doesn't mean anything. It's main stream media garbage that has no effect on anything. You look at a draft 5 years after it happened, not the day it ended. Then you find out who had a good draft or bad draft. I think Gabbert is going to be, without question, the best QB from this draft. That's because I think he's the best QB, not because, "Oh, he's in Jacksonville now." He has the most upside. He'll be ready to start to by mid season to get his feet wet, and should be capable of taking over in year two. As long as he's not having a front office that is constantly changing offensive coordinators or head coaches, then he should be fine.



Smart is a good quality. I'm not saying it's not, but you need the physical tools first and foremost. Kellen Moore is a smart kid. That's great, but he has the weakest arm I may ever seen. He has no chance. I don't care how smart he is. He's not an NFL QB. He's not. Never will be. Not even a backup. I simply disagree with it being the top priority. Not to say that it isn't important, but if you don't have a strong arm and good accuracy, then you can have everything else, which Jake Locker does, and still fail in the NFL. Locker has everything but accuracy from inside the pocket, and that is critical. All that should go ahead of how smart you are. I don't think people are up in arms about Ponder going 12th because they're worried about his intelligence or ability to comprehend a playbook. There's another 1st round QB with that stigma. I was expecting you to come out and praise his strengths as a QB. Talk about how his talents fit into the Vikings scheme. Talk about his accuracy, his anticipation, his timing, his high football I.Q., his ability to read defenses, going through progressions... not that he graduated in 2.5 years.

Well Ponder is smart and talented. ...and the talent over smarts or smarts over talent is more situationally unique than anything. Obviously Bill Gates is not gonna be a better football player just because he might be smart.

His arm strength shouldn't be a concern per se, but it's not necessarily the strength of his game. We disagree.


NFL drop backs are a learned trait. It takes work and repetition. That's it. Just because some of these guys haven't done it, doesn't mean they are incapable of doing it. Its practice. That's it. The other QBs wont be "held back." Initially? Of course, but in four years no one is going to be talking about Newton's footwork or Gabbert's footwork as being the reason for their failure, if they were to fail.

...and I said Ponder has a head start.




These are contradictory. Do you know the state of the Vikings four years from now? No, so his supporting cast means nothing other than potential early success, and his offensive line, right now, is not very good. What if the Vikings are picking in the top 5 in two years? Is his strong rookie supporting cast going to mean anything? You said it yourself though. Whatever OL problems they have today, may not be there later. Just like whatever strengths they have today, may not be there later. To hang your hat on the talent level of the team that drafts him in that same year, will not be any precursor for his success. The Falcons were picking in the top 3 when they drafted Ryan. The Falcons were an 11 win playoff team his rookie year.

It's not contradictory at all. I don't know what's difficult to understand that having a strong supporting cast doesn't necessarily mean there are no weaknesses. Do I really need to explain this further?

You take a franchise QB at 12. Ponder isn't and wont be a franchise QB. Saying he's going to be the best QB from this draft, but not saying he's going to be a franchise QB? Then what are you saying? Are you saying he's going to be least worst of the bunch? Is that a compliment? Should the Viking be happy with a completely average QB just because every other QB from this drafted turned out to be garbage? The Vikings are not in competition with Jags, Titans or Panthers as far as having the best QB from this class. The Vikings better have drafted their future signal caller for the next ten years, and the guy that leads them deep into the playoffs and gives them a chance at a Super Bowl.

I gotta run. I'll answer this later. Thanks for the fun debate though. This is exactly what I like. :)

That's why I will bash their pick. Telling me not to bash it though? I thought you wanted debate? Wright? Debate? Should everyone just nod in silence? Have no reaction? If Ponder turns into a Pro Bowl QB that takes Minnesota to the playoffs on a semi-regular basis, then they'll get the last laugh. They'll be right. If Ponder turns into a guy that only manages a couple winning seasons and makes a quick exit in his only playoff appearance, then he's a bust and it's a terrible pick. You don't draft "just another guy" at the QB position in the Top 15, or even the first round entirely.



To have a well reasoned thread you will first have to say what kind of career you are expecting from Ponder. Not some vague comment about him being the best of this QB class. Secondly, you would then have to state why every other QB is not going to be as good as Ponder. That would take a lot of work, but you're the one that made the overly ambitious thread.
Answers in bold. Be back later when I get a chance to relax on the comp.

FuzzyGopher
05-01-2011, 11:15 AM
It's baffling that teams can sit down and watch Gabbert, Ponder, and Mallett on film and take the two formers over the latter. Ponder played like crap his entire career. He's gotten by completely on his reputation as a top recruit. His supporting cast at Florida State was probably better than what the other QBs in this draft were working with, and he failed consistently.

Maybe he's Josh Freeman...even if he is, Mallett is still better. Ponder seemed like one of those guys you draft in the 3rd or 4th round who might turn into something more than a good backup. JD Booty (good call), Erik Ainge, Kevin O'Connell, etc.

I had him #7
1. Locker
2. Mallett
3. Newton
4. Gabbert
5. Kaepernick
6. Stanzi
7. Ponder
8. Yates
9. Dalton
10. Devlin

I'll agree that Mallet is probably the better pure quarterback out of all of those guys but he obviously had some serious character concerns. Also, Ponder wasn't a top recruit, he was a 3 star player and Florida State only gave him a scholarship at the last minute when Tebow chose to go to Florida instead.

prock
05-01-2011, 11:40 AM
It's baffling that teams can sit down and watch Gabbert, Ponder, and Mallett on film and take the two formers over the latter. Ponder played like crap his entire career. He's gotten by completely on his reputation as a top recruit. His supporting cast at Florida State was probably better than what the other QBs in this draft were working with, and he failed consistently.

Maybe he's Josh Freeman...even if he is, Mallett is still better. Ponder seemed like one of those guys you draft in the 3rd or 4th round who might turn into something more than a good backup. JD Booty (good call), Erik Ainge, Kevin O'Connell, etc.

I had him #7
1. Locker
2. Mallett
3. Newton
4. Gabbert
5. Kaepernick
6. Stanzi
7. Ponder
8. Yates
9. Dalton
10. Devlin

If you are relying only on film, then you shouldn't have Locker at #1. I love Locker, but the main criteria you are using against Ponder doesn't fit with you having Locker #1. My rankings were like this:

1. Newton
2. Mallet
3. Locker
4. Ponder
5. Gabbert
6. Kaepernick

Babylon
05-01-2011, 12:03 PM
I like the pick and i was sort of expecting maybe he'd end up in Seattle. To me Ponder is a pretty safe pick. I think he's underrated athletically as evidenced by the best 20 yard shuttle of all the QBs at the combine and he has a great head on his shoulders. For me i would have had him 3rd behind Locker and Gabbert.

If i had a criticism of what they did there in Minnesota it seemed like they just werent aggresive enough in going after a QB in the draft (unless it was Ponder all along). They could have jumped to #7 as the draft unfolded and assured themselves of the top two on my board but i thought they chose to let the draft come to them, we'll see how it turns out.

BigJohn98
05-01-2011, 12:05 PM
ROFL at the Heisman comment.

*20 minutes later - finally recovered from laughing enough to type again*

Ponder looked really bad at times throughout his career. There's no getting around it. He was a solid college QB, but nothing special. Average everything and injury prone. He's the 7th-best QB in this draft and for good reason.

And he was the #14 QB recruit in a class that included Bradford, Juice Williams, Stafford, Mustain, Freeman, Devlin, McElroy, Riley, and Potts. Considering that company, I'd say he's a fairly highly regarded recruit.

Like I said, you have no clue about him.

General Zod
05-01-2011, 01:10 PM
If i had a criticism of what they did there in Minnesota it seemed like they just werent aggresive enough in going after a QB in the draft (unless it was Ponder all along).

They really didn't have the ammo to move up out of 12. This team as lots of holes to fill, and already with no 3rd rd pick. And giving up next years draft pick or picks just to move up a couple spots doesn't seem worth it.

Was Ponder a reach at 12? Yeah more then likely. Was Gabbert and Locker a reach at 12? Yep still a reach. How many teams badly in need of a QB that picked ahead of 12 passed on Gabbert and Locker?

Also Spielman and Frazier stated that they did try to trade out of this pick. And also at the same time hearing from sources now that Washington and Miami were looking hard at Ponder and there is no way he was making it out of the 1st round.

Wait and see, its all we can do.

shylo3716
05-01-2011, 02:42 PM
Out of all the QB's drafted in the 1st Round Ponder was put in the best position. Hand ball off to AP, Throw ball to Harvin, Rice, Shaincoe. It does not get any better for him. I am very pleased to see him go to Minny, because that is where I was projecting him during the season. Once injuries started to come about I thought he would fall off the radar, boy was I wrong. The Senior Bowl did wonders for him.

BigBanger
05-01-2011, 04:31 PM
Like I said... they have a board arranged for one team. Their own. Doesn't make it wrong or panic at all if they took they guy they rated the highest according to their needs. Why is it labeled "panic" instead of "smart"? Why do they have to risk their guy getting taken? Say Ponder goes... then are they smart for missing on him because the value wasn't right according to some imaginary board of the masses? That's ridiculous! They got their guy. A guy who had a lot more to offer compared to what was left. That's not panic. That's safe and smart.
Why is Troy Williams labeled panic instead of smart? Why is Ryan Cook a reach? Why is Tarvaris Jackson? The Vikings are good evaluators of talent and when they draft BPA, they have great success. Adrian Peterson, Chad Greenway, Percy Harvin, Sidney Rice, E.J. Henderson, Kevin Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Ray Edwards... those are value picks of talented players that, more or less, fell into their laps because other teams reached for questionable players.

When they reach to fulfill a need, they can convince themselves that a player like Troy Williamson will be the next Randy Moss. He had a decent junior season, but he was a track guy playing football. He was a speed guy that was little more than a third or fourth round developmental project. And it blew up in their face. They've seen what a great QB can do (Favre) and have a desperate need to replace it. It has the appearance of a reach since everyone and their mother didn't think he was a first round QB. If Minnesota has ranked him in their Top 10, then good for them. They got their guy. But that better be their guy. You don't want to miss on first round QBs, especially with QBs that are widely viewed as second, third or fourth caliber QB prospects.

D-Unit
05-01-2011, 05:38 PM
Why is Troy Williams labeled panic instead of smart? Why is Ryan Cook a reach? Why is Tarvaris Jackson? The Vikings are good evaluators of talent and when they draft BPA, they have great success. Adrian Peterson, Chad Greenway, Percy Harvin, Sidney Rice, E.J. Henderson, Kevin Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Ray Edwards... those are value picks of talented players that, more or less, fell into their laps because other teams reached for questionable players.

When they reach to fulfill a need, they can convince themselves that a player like Troy Williamson will be the next Randy Moss. He had a decent junior season, but he was a track guy playing football. He was a speed guy that was little more than a third or fourth round developmental project. And it blew up in their face. They've seen what a great QB can do (Favre) and have a desperate need to replace it. It has the appearance of a reach since everyone and their mother didn't think he was a first round QB. If Minnesota has ranked him in their Top 10, then good for them. They got their guy. But that better be their guy. You don't want to miss on first round QBs, especially with QBs that are widely viewed as second, third or fourth caliber QB prospects.
Williamson was considered a 1st rounder. Certainly wasn't a panic pick. Are you making up the idea that they thought he was the next Randy Moss? Or is there something that substantiates your claim? Not every bad pick was a panic pick, not every good pick was a "BPA according to their board" pick. Way too much generalization in your approach to build up your point.

They obviously went for need over BPA, but it's not a bad idea in Minnesota's case when you consider all the other factors.

Heisman
05-01-2011, 10:33 PM
Why is Troy Williams labeled panic instead of smart? Why is Ryan Cook a reach? Why is Tarvaris Jackson? The Vikings are good evaluators of talent and when they draft BPA, they have great success. Adrian Peterson, Chad Greenway, Percy Harvin, Sidney Rice, E.J. Henderson, Kevin Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Ray Edwards... those are value picks of talented players that, more or less, fell into their laps because other teams reached for questionable players.

When they reach to fulfill a need, they can convince themselves that a player like Troy Williamson will be the next Randy Moss. He had a decent junior season, but he was a track guy playing football. He was a speed guy that was little more than a third or fourth round developmental project. And it blew up in their face. They've seen what a great QB can do (Favre) and have a desperate need to replace it. It has the appearance of a reach since everyone and their mother didn't think he was a first round QB. If Minnesota has ranked him in their Top 10, then good for them. They got their guy. But that better be their guy. You don't want to miss on first round QBs, especially with QBs that are widely viewed as second, third or fourth caliber QB prospects.

If you think Kevin Williams was a value, BPA player who "fell" into the Vikings laps, you're an absolute moron and your opinion should be completely disregarded. You clearly:

A. Are making up false claims to prove a point and
B. Have no idea what you're talking about.

bitonti
05-02-2011, 11:43 AM
we all saw the crowd shots of the Vikings fans on draft night

i think they will be pleasantly surprised with this player

he's pro ready, smart, from a great program, mature and fits the WCO like a glove.

other than durability and perhaps arm strength (overrated in a WCO) what's not to like?

people said it was a reach well the Vikings are not a total rebuild. they are a QB away from being a contender. Ponder could be that QB. I'd bet he starts week 1.

SolidGold
05-02-2011, 11:50 AM
I like all the offensive skill players around him in Minnesota. Getting Rudolph was smart as well. They do need o-line help, Ponder is a good athlete and can move well so that should help him some. He has plenty of arm to make all the throws required of him.

BuddyCHRIST
05-02-2011, 11:53 AM
It's baffling that teams can sit down and watch Gabbert, Ponder, and Mallett on film and take the two formers over the latter. Ponder played like crap his entire career. He's gotten by completely on his reputation as a top recruit. His supporting cast at Florida State was probably better than what the other QBs in this draft were working with, and he failed consistently.

Maybe he's Josh Freeman...even if he is, Mallett is still better. Ponder seemed like one of those guys you draft in the 3rd or 4th round who might turn into something more than a good backup. JD Booty (good call), Erik Ainge, Kevin O'Connell, etc.

I had him #7
1. Locker
2. Mallett
3. Newton
4. Gabbert
5. Kaepernick
6. Stanzi
7. Ponder
8. Yates
9. Dalton
10. Devlin

This completely shows you don't know what your talking about.

Ponder was never a top recruit, he was a 3 star guy on Rivals and not expected to be a big time starter.

He was hit and miss his sophomore year, lights out his Junior year and inconsistent his senior year. But he LIT UP some very good defenses, like UNC's in 2009 and UF's this past year.

His group of WR's are very average, its the biggest weakness on FSU's team. His Junior year he had some experienced guys (who were in and out with injuries) who actually ran correct routes and he was outstanding. This past season we had young and inconsistent WR's and its why Ponder struggled at times.

While I agree if you watch Mallet's film he is more impressive, the times he struggles are the times that happen alot more in the NFL. When there's a pass rush.

BuddyCHRIST
05-02-2011, 11:55 AM
I'll agree that Mallet is probably the better pure quarterback out of all of those guys but he obviously had some serious character concerns. Also, Ponder wasn't a top recruit, he was a 3 star player and Florida State only gave him a scholarship at the last minute when Tebow chose to go to Florida instead.

And where do people make this stuff up, Tebow was committed to UF for a while and FSU was never really in the picture. That is not why Ponder was offered.

djp
05-02-2011, 11:56 AM
And where do people make this stuff up, Tebow was committed to UF for a while and FSU was never really in the picture. That is not why Ponder was offered.

Only other school Tebow considered was Bama if I recall correctly.

Shane P. Hallam
05-02-2011, 11:56 AM
I don't think it is ridiculous to say, good situation for Ponder, not the best, but very good. Would I be surprised if he ends up a major injury risk/implodes? No, but he has the tools to be successful.

FuzzyGopher
05-02-2011, 12:38 PM
And where do people make this stuff up, Tebow was committed to UF for a while and FSU was never really in the picture. That is not why Ponder was offered.

I'm not making it up, I read it in an article like 2 days ago. Way to be a dick though.

marshallb
05-02-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm not making it up, I read it in an article like 2 days ago. Way to be a dick though.

I read the same(or at least a similar) article. I was looking to see if I could find it, but had no luck.

BigBanger
05-02-2011, 01:13 PM
If you think Kevin Williams was a value, BPA player who "fell" into the Vikings laps, you're an absolute moron and your opinion should be completely disregarded. You clearly:

A. Are making up false claims to prove a point and
B. Have no idea what you're talking about.

I guess you missed the part regarding "more or less" you stupid ******* ******. Maybe you should read and quit being thick in front of me. 6'5'' 305 pound DTs with DE athleticism and 4.8 speed, coming off a monster season are third rounders. You right. That was an awful pick. In case you forgot, he was widely regarded as a Top 10 pick, but you're right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Terrible value. Everyone thought it was a reach. Get the **** out of here.


Williamson was considered a 1st rounder. Certainly wasn't a panic pick. Are you making up the idea that they thought he was the next Randy Moss? Or is there something that substantiates your claim?

Yes. I made it up. They drafted Troy Williamson to be a bust. Not because they just lost Randy Moss and wanted a fast, vertical stretch WR. I don't have a link, but I watched the draft and know that to be the reason why they drafted him.

Black Bolt
03-11-2013, 06:02 PM
Now that some of the dust has settled, I'm convinced that Christian Ponder will have the brightest career out of the QBs selected in this year's draft. People can say the Vikings reached, but their board was put together for their own team. Not for the other 31.

Ponder will succeed because:

1) Intelligence. Graduated in 2.5 years with a 3.7 GPA and already has a Master's degree. Goes to show the kind of committment and work ethic he has off the field. It's also a good sign to show that a high ceiling on his learning capacity, which is crucial for the QB position.

2) Strong arm. Ponder's arm is plenty strong to make all the NFL throws. If you don't know it, watch him.

3) Elusive on his feet. He's not a runner like Newton, Tebow, Vick... but he's comfortable making plays on his feet and escaping pressure. In a lot of ways he reminds me of how Romo used to be. Romo runs a lot less now days, but he used to be a magician back there. So while he uses his feet well, he doesn't take off and scramble on his first instinct. Big plus.

3) Ponder comes from a pro style system. His footwork out from underneath center is smooth and automatic. He doesn't have to think about his footwork. It's just natural, unlike his peers coming from spread option systems who don't have the repetitiion advantage.

4) No accuracy question marks. While Locker and Newton have been highly criticized of this, nobody says that about Ponder.

5) He's a gunslinger. He's got that Brett Favre, never die attitude. He looks to extend plays and make things happen out of nothing. While that can be good many times, it has lead to some of his INTs... but the Vikings will love him for it.

6) Alpha male. This is important to me. Ponder sparkles those good looks that all those confident lead dogs have. People like him and gravitate him. People want to follow him. He's an easy guy to place confidence in. When he leads, you want to listen. That's the type he is. Not just because of his looks, but the complete package. Looks, smarts, athletic... fricken... our society loves those kinds of people. That's just the way it is.

7) Strong supporting cast. Now here is the real kicker that puts everything over the top. Ponder is going to a place where he can succeed right away. Handing the ball off to Adrian Peterson and targets like Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Berrian and Camarillo... not to mention a solid TE in Shianco... Ponder is landing in the best situation of all the other QBs in this draft.

So before you start knocking the pick (all you Locker lovers who praised Tennessee), realize you might be knocking the best QB to come out of this draft!!! They didn't reach. They got a damn STEAL!

Right, because there are no better QB steals than the ones that drive off Pro Bowl Receivers!! Maybe he is a little too alpha and Harvin was intimidated by his full head of hair. :wave:

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/257491/report-ponders-play-made-harvin-want-out

Two sources tell Yahoo Sports that the "straw that broke the Vikings' back" with Percy Harvin was Harvin "bemoaning" the fact that Christian Ponder is a poor starting quarterback.
Harvin believed Ponder was "not good enough." Harvin's complaints about GM Rick Spielman's handpicked franchise quarterback expedited his way out of town, despite Ponder's consistent ability to get him the football. Before his 2012 year-ending injury, Harvin was on pace for 111 receptions, and his game reached new heights the season before after Ponder replaced Donovan McNabb. Seattle must not be worried about Harvin throwing Russell Wilson under the bus.

raphael
03-11-2013, 08:15 PM
Since we're in retro mode here.....I was surprised when I looked back over the Combine tests for quarterbacks over the past five years, how much they were dominated by the 2011 class. Even without Terrelle Pryor. Jake Locker is the only QB who is still top 10 in all 5 events over that period. Gabbert, Newton, Griffin III, are top 10 in 3 of the 5 still. Luck in two, and I think Ponder, Kaepernick, and Wilson, in one each. If you include Wonderlic as the sixth test, Ponder, Gabbert, and Luck, would add one more top 10 mark each. If Pryor was included in that class, it would have dominated most events going as far back as you want to go. Luck, Wilson, Griffin, and E J Manuel were also eligible to come out in 2011.

The class also set all time records for rookie and sophomore starts in the NFL at the position. Remember how everyone was saying it was a terrible draft class? LOL at them.

boknows34
03-11-2013, 08:44 PM
Percy Harvin disagrees.

raphael
03-11-2013, 09:11 PM
Surprisingly enough, Ponder is a bit older than Harvin. But quarterbacks take longer to mature, and I guess Percy doesn't want to be washed up by the time that happens. Not that Wilson is any better, or any older.

PossibleCabbage
03-11-2013, 09:14 PM
Surprisingly enough, Ponder is a bit older than Harvin. But quarterbacks take longer to mature, and I guess Percy doesn't want to be washed up by the time that happens. Not that Wilson is any better, or any older.

I would rather have Wilson than Ponder on my team, I don't know about you.

FUNBUNCHER
03-11-2013, 09:23 PM
Surprisingly enough, Ponder is a bit older than Harvin. But quarterbacks take longer to mature, and I guess Percy doesn't want to be washed up by the time that happens. Not that Wilson is any better, or any older.


Wilson is better than Ponder.:helmet:

WCH
03-11-2013, 09:26 PM
Wilson is significantly better than Ponder.

raphael
03-11-2013, 09:28 PM
We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.

Black Bolt
03-11-2013, 09:38 PM
We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.

What?? No they didn't. What weapons did he have? But Tyler Wilson sucks.

Black Bolt
03-11-2013, 09:41 PM
Surprisingly enough, Ponder is a bit older than Harvin. But quarterbacks take longer to mature, and I guess Percy doesn't want to be washed up by the time that happens. Not that Wilson is any better, or any older.

A this rate, it would take the alpha male about 25 years to fully mature.

Black Bolt
03-11-2013, 09:43 PM
Since we're in retro mode here.....I was surprised when I looked back over the Combine tests for quarterbacks over the past five years, how much they were dominated by the 2011 class. Even without Terrelle Pryor. Jake Locker is the only QB who is still top 10 in all 5 events over that period. Gabbert, Newton, Griffin III, are top 10 in 3 of the 5 still. Luck in two, and I think Ponder, Kaepernick, and Wilson, in one each. If you include Wonderlic as the sixth test, Ponder, Gabbert, and Luck, would add one more top 10 mark each. If Pryor was included in that class, it would have dominated most events going as far back as you want to go. Luck, Wilson, Griffin, and E J Manuel were also eligible to come out in 2011.

The class also set all time records for rookie and sophomore starts in the NFL at the position. Remember how everyone was saying it was a terrible draft class? LOL at them.

Cam and Colin are complete studs, the rest of the class are decent decathletes.

Mufasa
03-11-2013, 09:52 PM
We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.

Ha no

349568

Cigaro
03-11-2013, 09:57 PM
We'll see if Wilson can keep it up. Last year everyone expected Cam Newton to dominate and the Panthers to be a Super Bowl contender.

http://www.artinthepicture.com/artists/Raphael/school_of_athens.jpeg

batsandgats
03-11-2013, 10:13 PM
Jake Locker is a stud, he has shown flashes of it on the football field and I think he will develop. They should be running read option plays with him, he had 291 yards rushing on 41 attempts, 7.1 ypc with most of it coming from scrambling. Add in the zone read and I think his level of play would be so much better. He put up great numbers for being 234 pounds.

I think Ponder will improve as well, some quarterbacks need a few years to adjust, most of the recent qbs that put up great numbers right away were running read option plays to help them transition to the NFL. I don't know why Percy Harvin was complaining, they utilized his skillset pretty well, he was used as a great slot receiver, only receiver to have a higher percentage of yards come after the catch over Welker.

raphael
03-11-2013, 10:22 PM
Well, one thing you can count on, pretty much, from any given quarterback class, the guy who has the best rookie season almost never ends up being the best long term. I looked back over about 15 years worth of rookie QBs, and there wasn't more than a couple who had the best first season and went on to have the best career. Kyle Orton had the best rookie season in the class with Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith. Chris Weinke had the best first season in a class with Drew Brees and Michael Vick. Vince Young won OROTY and went to the Pro Bowl his first season in the league. Even Peyton Manning was probably outplayed by Charlie Batch his first season in the league, although Batch didn't manage to play a full season. Things change as the years go by.

Black Bolt
03-11-2013, 10:30 PM
Jake Locker is a stud, he has shown flashes of it on the football field and I think he will develop. They should be running read option plays with him, he had 291 yards rushing on 41 attempts, 7.1 ypc with most of it coming from scrambling. Add in the zone read and I think his level of play would be so much better. He put up great numbers for being 234 pounds.

I think Ponder will improve as well, some quarterbacks need a few years to adjust, most of the recent qbs that put up great numbers right away were running read option plays to help them transition to the NFL. I don't know why Percy Harvin was complaining, they utilized his skillset pretty well, he was used as a great slot receiver, only receiver to have a higher percentage of yards come after the catch over Welker.

No sir, he is not a stud. Locker as a stud is a figment of your imagination. You want him to be a good, consistent QB, but he isn't. He wasn't taken in the top ten to develop. Please do not make excuses for his poor play. It's not anyone else's fault and it's not his fault he was taken so high. He was a project.

batsandgats
03-11-2013, 10:40 PM
umm, both guys you mentioned benefit from the zone read, and Kaepernick was a project and allowed to develop under a good coach and put into a great situation. The only thing holding back Locker is injuries. He played 11 games last season and only a handful the year before. Cam Newton hasn't exactly looked great compared to last year, declined in his 2nd year (not writing him off after 2 seasons though). And its besides the point, we were talking about athleticism, which I don't know why you would call RG3 a decent decathlete as well. Why not put him in there? are you thinking he won't be the same after his knee injury and might be forced to become more of a prototypical qb and not do as well?

My point is, if you let him run the read option, it allows him to develop into a prototypical qb while posting great stats, its what RG3 and Kaepernick are doing, without it I think they would struggle a little more. Like someone just said the best qbs usually don't come out putting up great seasons their first year, regardless of where they are picked. You can't force a qb to develop that fast, unless you have game managers like Joe Flacco who finally elevated his play last season. Andrew Luck showed flashes of being great and struggled at times as well (despite breaking the rookie passing record he made some mistakes), I don't think anyone is expecting him to decline, the signs show that he will improve.

BallerT1215
03-11-2013, 10:44 PM
Calling Jake Locker a stud is a little much.

raphael
03-11-2013, 10:45 PM
No sir, he is not a stud. Locker as a stud is a figment of your imagination. You want him to be a good, consistent QB, but he isn't. He wasn't taken in the top ten to develop. Please do not make excuses for his poor play. It's not anyone else's fault and it's not his fault he was taken so high. He was a project.

Other than injuries, I think that Locker and Gabbert were coming along as expected. Gabbert made pretty significant statistical improvements up to the point of his season ending injury. Locker won the starting job and was playing pretty well up to the point where the shoulder put him on the bench for a stretch. He wasn't the same when he did come back. Tough to be a running quarterback with a bad shoulder. Kaepernick has only had seven starts, on a very good team so far in his career. He'll get nicked and come down to earth as well. He isn't better than Locker or Gabbert, just landed in a better situation. So far.

batsandgats
03-11-2013, 10:46 PM
writing guys off like Locker and Ponder after two seasons is a little much...

BallerT1215
03-11-2013, 10:46 PM
Ponder has shown what he can do in a number of games. Give him some time.

raphael
03-11-2013, 10:49 PM
writing guys off like Locker and Ponder after two seasons is a little much...

Yeah, if you look back at the E. Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger class, it looked like Ben was so much better than the other two his first couple of seasons that it was ridiculous. Then he faded a bit, Rivers came on strong for a couple seasons, and finally Eli caught up to them both and has probably passed them as we sit.

FUNBUNCHER
03-12-2013, 03:37 AM
Well, one thing you can count on, pretty much, from any given quarterback class, the guy who has the best rookie season almost never ends up being the best long term. I looked back over about 15 years worth of rookie QBs, and there wasn't more than a couple who had the best first season and went on to have the best career. Kyle Orton had the best rookie season in the class with Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith. Chris Weinke had the best first season in a class with Drew Brees and Michael Vick. Vince Young won OROTY and went to the Pro Bowl his first season in the league. Even Peyton Manning was probably outplayed by Charlie Batch his first season in the league, although Batch didn't manage to play a full season. Things change as the years go by.

Huh?? Charlie Batch wasn't in the same zipcode as rookie QB compared to Peyton.

I'm not going to look back to research the last 15 drafts, but I'd assume your conclusion is wrong since you thought Batch had a better rookie season than Peyton.


Also you can't compare guys who didn't start as rookies to guys that did.
Compare their first year as starters and in most cases the better QBs were good from the very beginning.

pierce2walker
03-12-2013, 04:15 AM
As a Titans fan, Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either. The jury is definitely still out on him. Two years ago he showed flashes of brilliance when he played. Last year he won the job in camp, but the shoulder injury put a major hamper on his season. Add the fact that our interior OL was horrendous and that our receivers have been average at best with Brittle always being out. Hopefully he can do better things this year being healthy and having a OL that looks like it will be revamped.

Black Bolt
03-12-2013, 05:54 AM
As a Titans fan, Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either. The jury is definitely still out on him. Two years ago he showed flashes of brilliance when he played. Last year he won the job in camp, but the shoulder injury put a major hamper on his season. Add the fact that our interior OL was horrendous and that our receivers have been average at best with Brittle always being out. Hopefully he can do better things this year being healthy and having a OL that looks like it will be revamped.

Yeah, I think some of you are missing my point. Of course the book isn't written on the guys I have mentioned, but my point is they were drafted too high based on potential. Ponder has limited upside and Locker quite frankly is closer to an athlete than a QB. Compared to Geno Smith, they are light years behind him, yet for some reason, it became fashionable to say that Smith was not worth of a first rounder. Are you kidding me? Smith is WAY more further along than Locker and Ponder will never be able to throw the ball like Smith. I got news for you, Ponder's upside is Brad Johnson. Locker? David Carr.

Black Bolt
03-12-2013, 07:37 AM
Yeah, if you look back at the E. Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger class, it looked like Ben was so much better than the other two his first couple of seasons that it was ridiculous. Then he faded a bit, Rivers came on strong for a couple seasons, and finally Eli caught up to them both and has probably passed them as we sit.

That has nothing to do with this conversation as both of them were magnitudes better than Ponder and Locker to begin with. Neither Locker nor Ponder should have been drafted in the first round.

pierce2walker
03-12-2013, 12:55 PM
Yeah, I think some of you are missing my point. Of course the book isn't written on the guys I have mentioned, but my point is they were drafted too high based on potential. Ponder has limited upside and Locker quite frankly is closer to an athlete than a QB. Compared to Geno Smith, they are light years behind him, yet for some reason, it became fashionable to say that Smith was not worth of a first rounder. Are you kidding me? Smith is WAY more further along than Locker and Ponder will never be able to throw the ball like Smith. I got news for you, Ponder's upside is Brad Johnson. Locker? David Carr.

2 things...

1. I wasn't addressing your point. Don't flatter yourself. I just saw a discussion about Locker and I gave my opinion as someone who has watched all of Locker's games.

2. If you think Locker has a similar upside to what Carr had that is one thing. If you are saying that Locker's upside is what Carr resulted as (a bust), then yes you are writing him off almost by definition.

That has nothing to do with this conversation as both of them were magnitudes better than Ponder and Locker to begin with. Neither Locker nor Ponder should have been drafted in the first round.

Stop acting like every post has to exactly address the point that you intended. The conversation evolved. I'm sorry Locker and Ponder took a collective piss in your cereal while holding hands.

G Mobile
03-12-2013, 01:06 PM
I'd still take Locker over Smith.

Black Bolt
03-12-2013, 01:18 PM
2 things...

1. I wasn't addressing your point. Don't flatter yourself. I just saw a discussion about Locker and I gave my opinion as someone who has watched all of Locker's games.

Don't flatter yourself, I wasn't talking to you only.
2. If you think Locker has a similar upside to what Carr had that is one thing. If you are saying that Locker's upside is what Carr resulted as (a bust), then yes you are writing him off almost by definition.

Being that Carr's career actually played out before our eyes, I was referring to the results. I believe that Locker will prove to be no better than Carr. If I am writing him off, then so be it. Just keep in mind Trent Dilfer won a SB.

Stop acting like every post has to exactly address the point that you intended. The conversation evolved. I'm sorry Locker and Ponder took a collective piss in your cereal while holding hands.

Um, why don't you stop acting like Locker and Ponder's butt hurt surrogate-birthed son. Both of those clowns were highly overrated and it's not like I didn't say that at the time they were draft. In Locker's case, I said he was overrated the previous season. Now, if you want to take my opinion on a couple of former draft prospect personally, then thanks for the free entertainment.

pierce2walker
03-12-2013, 01:41 PM
Um, why don't you stop acting like Locker and Ponder's butt hurt surrogate-birthed son. Both of those clowns were highly overrated and it's not like I didn't say that at the time they were draft. In Locker's case, I said he was overrated the previous season. Now, if you want to take my opinion on a couple of former draft prospect personally, then thanks for the free entertainment.

Ahh the classic "claim whoever disagrees with you is butthurt" post. Please sir do explain to me how I am so "butthurt" here.

raphael
03-12-2013, 01:42 PM
Huh?? Charlie Batch wasn't in the same zipcode as rookie QB compared to Peyton.

I'm not going to look back to research the last 15 drafts, but I'd assume your conclusion is wrong since you thought Batch had a better rookie season than Peyton.


Also you can't compare guys who didn't start as rookies to guys that did.
Compare their first year as starters and in most cases the better QBs were good from the very beginning.

Batch had two more wins in four fewer starts than Manning (he was hurt). Higher completion rate, and Charlie had an 83 passer rating to 71 for Manning.
Better touchdown to interception rate. What else you want?

raphael
03-12-2013, 01:46 PM
That has nothing to do with this conversation as both of them were magnitudes better than Ponder and Locker to begin with. Neither Locker nor Ponder should have been drafted in the first round.

What makes you think they were "magnitudes better"? Eli was complete crap his rookie season, didn't win a game until the last day on his 24th birthday. Rivers hardly got off the bench his first couple seasons. He was 25 before he made his first start.

FUNBUNCHER
03-12-2013, 01:53 PM
Batch had two more wins in four fewer starts than Manning (he was hurt). Higher completion rate, and Charlie had an 83 passer rating to 71 for Manning.
Better touchdown to interception rate. What else you want?


In 1998, Batch had 57% completions, a little over 2100 yards passing on 303 attempts, 11 TD, 6 INTs.


Same year, Manning completed 56% of his passes, 3739 yds on 575 attempts, 26 TDs/28 INTs.

I hate INTs, but I don't look at their rookie season stats and say that Batch outperformed Peyton.

Their completion percentage is virtually the same.
I just wouldn't say Batch had a better overall rookie year than Peyton.
At the time I believe Peyton set two alltime rookie QB records, for TD passes and total passing yards.

:lynched:

raphael
03-12-2013, 01:58 PM
Well, I said Batch "probably" outplayed Manning other than the fact he missed four games. I didn't imply that it was clear cut or one sided. If you averge Batch's stats out over a full season, he would have had 20 Tds, 10 Int or something. 83 passer rating was pretty decent back then. Won 5 of 12 starts.

FUNBUNCHER
03-12-2013, 01:58 PM
What makes you think they were "magnitudes better"? Eli was complete crap his rookie season, didn't win a game until the last day on his 24th birthday. Rivers hardly got off the bench his first couple seasons. He was 25 before he made his first start.

The problem is where does this faith in Ponder and Locker come from that they'll be solid to good pros??? They weren't great vertical passers in college and aren't in the NFL.
Rivers and Eli, you at least have their outstanding college careers to project what they might become in the pros.

Most raw QBs who develop into good pros were at least good/great in college.
I just don't see the evidence that these two weren't overdrafted, other than hope.

raphael
03-12-2013, 02:05 PM
I really think the 2011 QB class is going down as one of the best ever. We still haven't heard from Mallett and Pryor yet. Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.

FUNBUNCHER
03-12-2013, 02:14 PM
I really think the 2011 QB class is going down as one of the best ever. We still haven't heard from Mallett and Pryor yet. Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.


In five years, the only QBs listed above who have an 80% chance to be starters in 5 years are Kaepernick and Newton.

raphael
03-12-2013, 02:19 PM
In five years, the only QBs listed above who have an 80% chance to be starters in 5 years are Kaepernick and Newton.

So far, 2011 class has set all time record for rookie starts and sophomore starts. Ever. Pryor getting his shot this year.

G Mobile
03-12-2013, 02:21 PM
I hated that class at first because there wasn't one great QB, but then i realized that is a great draft of just tools and potential. I saw 7 guys who I thought has a decent shot at being a quality NFL starter.

Brothgar
03-12-2013, 02:28 PM
In five years, the only QBs listed above who have an 80% chance to be starters in 5 years are Kaepernick and Newton.

I agree with this statement. Pryor is a mystery but I doubt he will ever be a long term starter. The other in this class I think can be a long term starter is Mallett. I also want to see what Stanzi does with Andy Reid.

Black Bolt
03-12-2013, 04:19 PM
I agree with this statement. Pryor is a mystery but I doubt he will ever be a long term starter. The other in this class I think can be a long term starter is Mallett. I also want to see what Stanzi does with Andy Reid.

The Chefs are reportedly interested in signing Chase Daniel, so the likely answer is nothing.

NMfootball85
03-12-2013, 05:53 PM
Year Team Attempts Completions Completion %YardsTDs INT
2006 Florida State
Redshirt
2007 Florida State 18 8 44.4% 105 1 2
2008 Florida State 318 177 55.7% 2,006 14 13
2009 Florida State 330 227 68.8% 2,717 14 7
2010 Florida State 299 184 61.5% 2,044 20 8
College Totals 965 596 61.8% 6,872 49 30

NFL TD–INT 31-25
Passing yards 4,788
Passer rating 77.1
Rushing attempts 88
Rushing yards 472
Rushing touchdowns 2
over two seasons Ponder is so awesome he such an amazing passer and has a definite "duel Threat"

batsandgats
03-12-2013, 11:17 PM
Year Team Attempts Completions Completion %YardsTDs INT
2006 Florida State
Redshirt
2007 Florida State 18 8 44.4% 105 1 2
2008 Florida State 318 177 55.7% 2,006 14 13
2009 Florida State 330 227 68.8% 2,717 14 7
2010 Florida State 299 184 61.5% 2,044 20 8
College Totals 965 596 61.8% 6,872 49 30

NFL TD–INT 31-25
Passing yards 4,788
Passer rating 77.1
Rushing attempts 88
Rushing yards 472
Rushing touchdowns 2
over two seasons Ponder is so awesome he such an amazing passer and has a definite "duel Threat"
its not like he was running the read option, I don't know how you expect him to pick up more yards if he isn't getting designed runs like the other "dual threats", the reason why he got the nod his sophomore year is because the coach liked his mobility.

he was leading the acc in passing yard average per game until he got injured in 2009, he separated his shoulder trying to tackle someone that made an interception on him, he was going to break 3k and had several injuries during his senior year, mainly his elbow which he kept having to get drained. If it weren't for the separated shoulder he was going to come out in 2009. He has also battled the elbow problem in the NFL, you can't just throw the stats out there and make a conclusion without knowing the story behind it

I mean do you watch the games? or just look at stats because its the same argument you have for others "well he threw this many passes and completed this many and this is how many sacks he took"

LonghornsLegend
03-13-2013, 12:04 PM
Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.

I am having a hard time figuring out if you are joking or being srs most of the time.

Black Bolt
03-13-2013, 12:32 PM
Year Team Attempts Completions Completion %YardsTDs INT
2006 Florida State
Redshirt
2007 Florida State 18 8 44.4% 105 1 2
2008 Florida State 318 177 55.7% 2,006 14 13
2009 Florida State 330 227 68.8% 2,717 14 7
2010 Florida State 299 184 61.5% 2,044 20 8
College Totals 965 596 61.8% 6,872 49 30

NFL TD–INT 31-25
Passing yards 4,788
Passer rating 77.1
Rushing attempts 88
Rushing yards 472
Rushing touchdowns 2
over two seasons Ponder is so awesome he such an amazing passer and has a definite "duel Threat"

Ponder is not a duel threat on the NFL level. And once again, you are making an evaluation solely on numbers.

PossibleCabbage
03-13-2013, 12:52 PM
Ponder is not a duel threat on the NFL level. And once again, you are making an evaluation solely on numbers.

The only real reason that Ponder has rushing statistics at all is that he's super-panicky in the pocket. If his first read isn't open (which is often), he reliably gets happy feet and flees the pocket.

J-Mike88
03-13-2013, 12:56 PM
I really think the 2011 QB class is going down as one of the best ever. We still haven't heard from Mallett and Pryor yet. Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, will all be starters for a long time.
I'll take the one right after it thank you.
You can have your Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton and I'll take Luck, RG3, Wilson, Tannehill.

raphael
03-13-2013, 02:10 PM
I am having a hard time figuring out if you are joking or being srs most of the time.

Numbers don't lie. 2011 QB class had the most rookie starts and sophomore starts ever. Not something I'm pulling out of my butt.

Saints-Tigers
03-13-2013, 02:29 PM
Numbers don't lie. 2011 QB class had the most rookie starts and sophomore starts ever. Not something I'm pulling out of my butt.

But it also has an extreme amount of suck. Like Gabbert.

raphael
03-13-2013, 02:35 PM
But it also has an extreme amount of suck. Like Gabbert.

Gabbert had a better passer rating and completion % than Luck or Tannehill last year, with less support around him. Playing against more difficult competition. He is younger than both of them. So I guess 2012 has "more than extreme amount of suck".

prock
03-13-2013, 05:17 PM
Considering the Jags and Colts are in the same division I'm not sure where you are getting this "more difficult competition" thing from. And considering the Colts and Fins had two of the worst receiving corps in the league last year (sans Wayne), that point also seems pretty baseless.

brasho
03-13-2013, 05:55 PM
CK is soooo athletic that he'll be able to survive on that as his own checkdowns and be a decent rookie... factor in the fact that he will be leading Harbaugh's offense with Gore, Crabtree, and Davis and I think a star is born!

This was a little prophetic.

brasho
03-13-2013, 05:57 PM
I've seen enough of Ponder, his noodle arm, and the hype he got undeservedly at FSU to know that at #12 he was a risk.

1) He doesn't have a great arm. His arm is average at best. The injuries may have unfairly made his arm look worse than it was.... but that's another issue/

2) Too frequently injured. He's not big, he wasn't durable in college, there's no reason to believe he will ever be healthy in the NFL.

3) I didn't see how he performed all that well at the Senior Bowl. His biggest play was also his worst play, the 40+ yard eephus pitch he threw to Hankerson should have a) never been thrown b) been shot like a duck shortly after it left his hand. Bad decision, worse throw, terrible arm strength shown on that particular play.

4) Book smarts has never been a great predictor of NFL success. He has had some incredibly boneheaded throws/decisions over his time that suggests he doesn't have a great mind while in the pocket.

If he can stay semi-healthy he could someday be a Jeff Garcia-type WCO QB, but he'll never be elite.

So far this seems pretty spot on. A bigger but less effective Jeff Garcia. He's still got time and has played a little better than I thought he would.

brasho
03-13-2013, 06:01 PM
umm, both guys you mentioned benefit from the zone read, and Kaepernick was a project and allowed to develop under a good coach and put into a great situation. The only thing holding back Locker is injuries. He played 11 games last season and only a handful the year before. Cam Newton hasn't exactly looked great compared to last year, declined in his 2nd year (not writing him off after 2 seasons though). And its besides the point, we were talking about athleticism, which I don't know why you would call RG3 a decent decathlete as well. Why not put him in there? are you thinking he won't be the same after his knee injury and might be forced to become more of a prototypical qb and not do as well?

My point is, if you let him run the read option, it allows him to develop into a prototypical qb while posting great stats, its what RG3 and Kaepernick are doing, without it I think they would struggle a little more. Like someone just said the best qbs usually don't come out putting up great seasons their first year, regardless of where they are picked. You can't force a qb to develop that fast, unless you have game managers like Joe Flacco who finally elevated his play last season. Andrew Luck showed flashes of being great and struggled at times as well (despite breaking the rookie passing record he made some mistakes), I don't think anyone is expecting him to decline, the signs show that he will improve.

In Kaepernick's first two starts he ran little to no read option plays... by the way, those two starts were impressive victories over the Bears and Saints (on the road). The read option may have made life a tad easier on CK, but I have a feeling he would've been fine without it. Granted, the read-option alone crushed the Packers in the playoffs.

Unbiased
03-13-2013, 07:17 PM
Don't know about the "Alpha male" bit. He hung with Gabbert a lot this spring, and Gabbert seemed the dominant personality even though he is a couple of years younger than Ponder.

What a weird comment.

Saints-Tigers
03-13-2013, 08:59 PM
Gabbert had a better passer rating and completion % than Luck or Tannehill last year, with less support around him. Playing against more difficult competition. He is younger than both of them. So I guess 2012 has "more than extreme amount of suck".

Lollllllll. You believe that?

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 01:18 PM
Ponder could be a dual threat if they ran the read option, he is almost 230 and ran a 4.6 at the combine. He was known for his mobility in college. He doesn't just scramble when his first read isn't open, thats lazy analysis. I just watched the game vs the 49ers, he stands in the pocket and doesn't worry about pressure coming to him unless he sees an open lane, otherwise he stands tall and tries to make a play, I saw a ton of dropped passes in that game. Most of his runs come out on play action rollouts, cutting the field in half and the guys on that side fail to get seperation, although he will try to thread the needle and its been hit or miss. He was standing in there trying to make plays with guys like Aldon and Justin Smith in his face. The mistake that really stood out that I saw were some overthrows on deep plays.

Colin ran a decent amount of read option against the Saints, I remember watching that game. Just because he doesn't run the ball doesn't mean they don't do read option, part of the option is reading the defense and deciding whether to hand it off or not. Just running it 5 to 10 times a game slows the defense down and he ran it close to 10. The Saints had the worst defense, I think in history, and he put up 231 yards 1 td and 1 int, he also had a rushing td on a read option play but his qb play did not look spectacular, against the worst defense, granted his was one of his first games starting.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 02:08 PM
The only real reason that Ponder has rushing statistics at all is that he's super-panicky in the pocket. If his first read isn't open (which is often), he reliably gets happy feet and flees the pocket.

Thank you. Any questions?

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 02:10 PM
Numbers don't lie. 2011 QB class had the most rookie starts and sophomore starts ever. Not something I'm pulling out of my butt.

That doesn't mean they are a great class! This is example A of how numbers CAN lie. It's hard for me to believe you are being serious. How many starts did Cade McNown, Akili Smith and Tim Couch start early on??

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 02:12 PM
What a weird comment.

LOL, I feel uncomfortable after having read that. Am I in the middle of some sort of experiment?

FUNBUNCHER
03-15-2013, 02:13 PM
Ponder could be a dual threat if they ran the read option, he is almost 230 and ran a 4.6 at the combine. He was known for his mobility in college. He doesn't just scramble when his first read isn't open, thats lazy analysis. I just watched the game vs the 49ers, he stands in the pocket and doesn't worry about pressure coming to him unless he sees an open lane, otherwise he stands tall and tries to make a play, I saw a ton of dropped passes in that game. Most of his runs come out on play action rollouts, cutting the field in half and the guys on that side fail to get seperation, although he will try to thread the needle and its been hit or miss. He was standing in there trying to make plays with guys like Aldon and Justin Smith in his face. The mistake that really stood out that I saw were some overthrows on deep plays.

Colin ran a decent amount of read option against the Saints, I remember watching that game. Just because he doesn't run the ball doesn't mean they don't do read option, part of the option is reading the defense and deciding whether to hand it off or not. Just running it 5 to 10 times a game slows the defense down and he ran it close to 10. The Saints had the worst defense, I think in history, and he put up 231 yards 1 td and 1 int, he also had a rushing td on a read option play but his qb play did not look spectacular, against the worst defense, granted his was one of his first games starting.


THe read option play fake is an awesome tool for a QB who can run. Don't talk like it's illegitimate. For guys like RG3 and CK, the read option ball fake will always cause a defense to hesitate a step, just like a good play action fake when a team is running the ball effectively will open up deep routes against safeties cheating up to stop the run.
Same principle.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 02:18 PM
Ahh the classic "claim whoever disagrees with you is butthurt" post. Please sir do explain to me how I am so "butthurt" here.

I never made that general claim, I sad YOU were butt hurt as evidenced by you taking criticism of a player personally. Your "stud" comment is the funniest item in the thread.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 02:21 PM
THe read option play fake is an awesome tool for a QB who can run. Don't talk like it's illegitimate. For guys like RG3 and CK, the read option ball fake will always cause a defense to hesitate a step, just like a good play action fake when a team is running the ball effectively will open up deep routes against safeties cheating up to stop the run.
Same principle.

And to that I would add that Ponder is athletic- David Carr level athletic. But he's not athletic enough to run the read option. Christian "The Stud" Ponder needs to worry about Matt Castle.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
03-15-2013, 02:40 PM
And to that I would add that Ponder is athletic- David Carr level athletic. But he's not athletic enough to run the read option. Christian "The Stud" Ponder needs to worry about Matt Castle.

You're underrating Ponder's level of athleticism. In his soph year before he got good, he was pretty much a WR playing QB. All he did was run. He ran for over about 150 yards against Miami, and another 60 or so against Maryland. He's more on the level of Aaron Rodgers in terms of athleticism, he can definitely hurt you with his feet.

FUNBUNCHER
03-15-2013, 02:43 PM
And to that I would add that Ponder is athletic- David Carr level athletic. But he's not athletic enough to run the read option. Christian "The Stud" Ponder needs to worry about Matt Castle.


Yeah, but the beauty of the read option in the NFL is the QB only has to bust a 20+ yard gainer once, and D-coordinators will be afraid of that run threat all season.

I like the way Kaepernick ran it better than RG3, because he only took off when the DE/OLB totally blew contain and he had yards of green to run downfield.
He didn't force it like Griffin did too often.


There are several mobile QBs in the NFL, but not all are run threats like Locker/Wilson/Griffin/CK/Vick.

pierce2walker
03-15-2013, 02:44 PM
I never made that general claim, I sad YOU were butt hurt as evidenced by you taking criticism of a player personally. Your "stud" comment is the funniest item in the thread.

My exact words were, "Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either". So I said he isn't great, but isn't a bust yet. A ridiculous claim I know. Please show me how that is the "funniest item in the thread".

While you're at it please show me where I took anything personally. My post wasn't even directed at you, but you took it as so.

I don't think I'm the butt hurt one here...

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 03:13 PM
My exact words were, "Locker certainly isn't a stud, but he isn't a bust either". So I said he isn't great, but isn't a bust yet. A ridiculous claim I know. Please show me how that is the "funniest item in the thread".

While you're at it please show me where I took anything personally. My post wasn't even directed at you, but you took it as so.

I don't think I'm the butt hurt one here...

I'm not going to pull up parts of this ongoing conversation in ths thread, but you can scroll back if you wish. You definitely took things personally. Did you forgot chastising me because you thought my comments were meant for you and you only, even though it was said in general? Even though there are many others in this discussion?

Yeah, you WERE acting butt hurt. Do you remember saying things like "Don't flatter yourself.", "Stop acting like every post has to exactly address the point that you intended." and "I'm sorry Locker and Ponder took a collective piss in your cereal while holding hands."? Don't have and identity crisis now, this is where you wanted to take things, not me. Like I said, I'm good. I'm the guy who tried to tell everyone that Kaepernick could play and Locker and Ponder couldn't, Manuel was the second best pQB prospect this year, Smith was a top ten pick, etc., so feel pretty good right now.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 05:48 PM
THe read option play fake is an awesome tool for a QB who can run. Don't talk like it's illegitimate. For guys like RG3 and CK, the read option ball fake will always cause a defense to hesitate a step, just like a good play action fake when a team is running the ball effectively will open up deep routes against safeties cheating up to stop the run.
Same principle.
did I ever say it was illegitimate? go back and read my posts..l said it was a good way to help young qbs transition to the league. The fact that Ponder and Locker aren't running them doesn't give them the advantage like other athletic qbs. Its more than a regular play action fake, the defense has one more thing to think about. Defenses said they would rather face Drew Brees than someone who runs read option, not because they are better than Brees, but because of so many things they have to worry about because of the read option. Why does Russel Wilson get to run read option plays when I don't recall him running them in college, yet a guy like Jake Locker did isn't allowed to? Yeah he is injury prone, but he is going to be injury prone regardless if he stays in the pocket or not, kind of like how Matt Stafford was.

Why isn't Ponder athletic enough? he ran a 4.6 which is plenty fast for a dual threat qb, one that is 230 pounds. He was known for mobility in college and has shown he can run in the NFL on broken down plays. I never saw happy feet from him, especially in the game I just watched against San Fransico, he stood tall in the pocket with guys all in his face trying to make throws. Now when he rolls out, that splits the field in half leaving less progressions for him to go through, so if those guys on the side of the field aren't open, then yes he is going to run.

It seems like some on here glorify the athleticism of some quarterbacks yet downplay the athleticism of others, I wonder why that is. His 3 cone time was identical to Kaepernick and his shuttle was identical to Wilson (while his 3 cone time was better than Wilson and his shuttle time was better than Kaepernick). His vertical was better than Kaepernick and identical to Wilson who weighs much less (more than 20 pounds) than him and their broad jumps were all around the same. The vertical and broad show initial burst which is the most important for a qb running the read option. His 10 yard dash was only .02 slower than Wilson and .05 faster than Kaepernick. The shuttle and 3 cone times are equally as important.

His 20 yard dash was .01 faster than BOTH of them.

Jake Locker has Kaepernick beat in every single category except broad where they are equal and his shuttle was .03 slower than Wilson and Ponder.

FUNBUNCHER
03-15-2013, 05:53 PM
I guess Ponder could run it, but he would actually have to keep the football a few times and pick up big chunks of yardage to have teams respect that play fake.

Ponder is mobile and can scramble, but I don't know if he's really a run threat.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 06:00 PM
did I ever say it was illegitimate? go back and read my posts..l said it was a good way to help young qbs transition to the league. The fact that Ponder and Locker aren't running them doesn't give them the advantage like other athletic qbs. Its more than a regular play action fake, the defense has one more thing to think about. Defenses said they would rather face Drew Brees than someone who runs read option, not because they are better than Brees, but because of so many things they have to worry about because of the read option. Why does Russel Wilson get to run read option plays when I don't recall him running them in college, yet a guy like Jake Locker did isn't allowed to? Yeah he is injury prone, but he is going to be injury prone regardless if he stays in the pocket or not, kind of like how Matt Stafford was.

Why isn't Ponder athletic enough? he ran a 4.6 which is plenty fast for a dual threat qb, one that is 230 pounds. He was known for mobility in college and has shown he can run in the NFL on broken down plays. I never saw happy feet from him, especially in the game I just watched against San Fransico, he stood tall in the pocket with guys all in his face trying to make throws. Now when he rolls out, that splits the field in half leaving less progressions for him to go through, so if those guys on the side of the field aren't open, then yes he is going to run.

He is athletic, but please, he's not athletic enough to run the pistol, not to mention his low durability. You have to acknowledge this before you claim he didn't have the same advantage some of the other young top QBs had.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 06:10 PM
read what I added to my post

It seems like some on here glorify the athleticism of some quarterbacks yet downplay the athleticism of others, I wonder why that is. His 3 cone time was identical to Kaepernick and his shuttle was identical to Wilson (while his 3 cone time was better than Wilson and his shuttle time was better than Kaepernick). His vertical was better than Kaepernick and identical to Wilson who weighs much less (more than 20 pounds) than him and their broad jumps were all around the same. The vertical and broad show initial burst which is the most important for a qb running the read option. His 10 yard dash was only .02 slower than Wilson and .05 faster than Kaepernick. The shuttle and 3 cone times are equally as important.

His 20 yard dash was .01 faster than BOTH of them.

Jake Locker has Kaepernick beat in every single category except broad where they are equal and his shuttle was .03 slower than Wilson and Ponder.

by that logic Cam Newton wouldn't be athletic enough to run the read option, don't act like the pistol is some hard thing to run, read option is read option, pistol is just a formation.

and just like I said with Locker, durability is going to be factor regardless if they run the option or not, look at Matt Stafford who stayed in the pocket, did he not have durability issues? Ponder has problems with his elbow, not his knees. Its not like Rg3 lasted an entire season. I see no problem with them running it 15 times a game, that doesn't mean the qb runs 15 to 20 times a game, just that they run the read option 15 to 20 times a game. Hell even 10 times would help them out.

so you are saying a guy who has almost identical 20 yard dash as to the guys who run the read option can't run it? thats ridiculous. You only want your qb picking up 20 yards anyway and avoiding hits. Its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks who run slower than Ponder, Greene, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Alfred Morris the list goes on. A 4.6 is not slow, and its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks with injury concerns that last a good while in the league. I am saying its something you run for a few years to ease them into the transition, it shouldn't be a career thing, not even for the most athletic qbs. I guess the rb in the pistol can run close to a 4.7 (alfred morris) but a 4.6 is too slow for the qb to be running it when Newton ran close to a 4.6, yeah that makes total sense.

Carr was close to a 4.7 at a pro day, not a combine and didn't crack 7 seconds in the 3 cone drill although he had a nice vertical but barely cracked 9' in the broad and had a 4.28 shuttle. Ponder is much more athletic than he is.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 06:24 PM
read what I added to my post

It seems like some on here glorify the athleticism of some quarterbacks yet downplay the athleticism of others, I wonder why that is. His 3 cone time was identical to Kaepernick and his shuttle was identical to Wilson (while his 3 cone time was better than Wilson and his shuttle time was better than Kaepernick). His vertical was better than Kaepernick and identical to Wilson who weighs much less (more than 20 pounds) than him and their broad jumps were all around the same. The vertical and broad show initial burst which is the most important for a qb running the read option. His 10 yard dash was only .02 slower than Wilson and .05 faster than Kaepernick. The shuttle and 3 cone times are equally as important.

His 20 yard dash was .01 faster than BOTH of them.

Jake Locker has Kaepernick beat in every single category except broad where they are equal and his shuttle was .03 slower than Wilson and Ponder.

by that logic Cam Newton wouldn't be athletic enough to run the read option, don't act like the pistol is some hard thing to run, read option is read option, pistol is just a formation.

and just like I said with Locker, durability is going to be factor regardless if they run the option or not, look at Matt Stafford who stayed in the pocket, did he not have durability issues? Ponder has problems with his elbow, not his knees. Its not like Rg3 lasted an entire season. I see no problem with them running it 15 times a game, that doesn't mean the qb runs 15 to 20 times a game, just that they run the read option 15 to 20 times a game. Hell even 10 times would help them out.

so you are saying a guy who has almost identical 20 yard dash as to the guys who run the read option can't run it? thats ridiculous. You only want your qb picking up 20 yards anyway and avoiding hits. Its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks who run slower than Ponder, Greene, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Alfred Morris the list goes on. A 4.6 is not slow, and its not like we don't have dozens of runningbacks with injury concerns that last a good while in the league. I am saying its something you run for a few years to ease them into the transition, it shouldn't be a career thing, not even for the most athletic qbs.

They are not athletic enough to run the read option. I know you don't want to believe it, but it's true. Talk to me when the prove it.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 06:27 PM
I guess Ponder could run it, but he would actually have to keep the football a few times and pick up big chunks of yardage to have teams respect that play fake.

Ponder is mobile and can scramble, but I don't know if he's really a run threat.

Ponder has a freaking arm injury from a hit. He will not last a second as a read option QB. He can be effective scrambling every now and then, but he is not a ball carrier. I'd say Locker is a little better than him in this area, but he is not a true read option QB either.

What this guy doesn't know or want to accept is that there is different between a good athlete and true ball carrier. Cam Newton ran a 4.58 which isn't blazing, but he is easily twice if not three times the runner that Ponder or Locker is.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 06:27 PM
yeah you never gave any reasons why they aren't athletic enough....maybe the first part of your user name is what they need to be considered athletic enough because thats all the players you hype as having the "athleticism"

quarterbacks are going to get hit regardless if they run the read option or not, whats better, getting hit from the blindside in a throwing motion or running forward where you have control of where you go an when you can slide? hmmm... Gee I wonder. Lets just keep getting him hit in the pocket. The best thing to stop pressure from the defense is to have your qb run, but lets just get him hit every snap while in the pocket like its any different

Locker was a much more electrifying runner than Cam Newton in college and he didn't have the genius Gus Malazahn running the offense perfectly, stuck on some crappy college team running a rinky dink version of the spread option.

Yeah a true ball carrier has to have certain credentials, like your user name. Only those guys can run the ball I suppose, right? even though the other guys showed they can run it college, with the ball in their hand, as ball carriers, yeah that makes perfect sense. Athletes who run the ball don't = ball carriers unless they meet your user name credential, because those are the "Real athletes who are meant to carry the ball", right?

I guess Tebow couldn't run the ball either, except that he proved it in the NFL as well as college. Not saying that he is a great qb, but he is a proven "ball carrier"

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 06:38 PM
yeah you never gave any reasons why they aren't athletic enough....maybe the first part of your user name is what they need to be considered athletic enough because thats all the players you hype as having the "athleticism"

quarterbacks are going to get hit regardless if they run the read option or not, whats better, getting hit from the blindside in a throwing motion or running forward where you have control of where you go an when you can slide? hmmm... Gee I wonder. Lets just keep getting him hit in the pocket. The best thing to stop pressure from the defense is to have your qb run, but lets just get him hit every snap while in the pocket like its any different

Dude, please don't try to bait me. You are looking for an excuse to call me a racist and I saw it coming a mile away. What I can tell you is that there are different types of athleticism and those guys don't have what it takes to run the read option. If you want reason, I can't help you because I am not the almighty creator. I know that they aren't elusive enough or physically tough enough to get up and do it over and over again. Just like some people may test well, but couldn't play a lick of CB. Or tomahawk dunk. Now you can write an angry thesis, make a bunch of spread sheets or reference my handle in an underhanded manner, but you can't change reality. Those two guys are athletic to and extend, but they can't do what Newton, RG3, Kaepernick or Wilson can do.

Oh, and for the record, I think Doug Flutie and Johnnie Football probably could, so do whatever it is you do with that.

PS: Who told you about "gats?" :njx:

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 06:51 PM
You don't know if they can run it or not because you haven't seen them run it. Alfred Morris who runs close to a 4.7 can be a proven ball carrier yet Ponder can't? Shonn Greene is a proven ball carrier yet he has had no runs over 40 yards in his career and maybe 2 or 3 that went for a little over 30? Yeah your logic really makes sense

You knew that statement was coming because you know what your agenda is, why else would you be expecting it? Thats proof right there.

They don't just test well, they did it in college, Ponder ran quite well his sophomore year and Locker ran well throughout his career on the read option, and they tested out with the measurables, but yet that still isn't enough to convince that they can be proven ball carriers? If Russel Wilson never got to run the read option, how would we know he could handle it? he is like 5'11 205 pounds and didn't do it in college. Yet somehow he has the athleticism to do it, yeah keep up with your racist thinking. They can be elusive enough to move around the pocket and run with it when nothing is open. Play through injuries (Locker played through quite a bit in college an still did well) but I guess they still aren't elusive or tough. Yeah, that sure makes a whole lot of sense. Just ignore the whole point about getting hit in the pocket continuously, yeah because that doesn't suit your argument.

Yeah because Manziel is a freak of nature and better than all of these guys combined when it comes to running the ball, but I am sure people will find negatives about him as his career in college goes along, after he won the Heisman they were already saying why he wouldn't translate into an NFL qb. Mentioning those two names is the equivalent of a white racist saying "but ive got black friends".

btw, you don't "know" anything, it called an opinion.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 07:17 PM
You don't know if they can run it or not because you haven't seen them run it. Alfred Morris who runs close to a 4.7 can be a proven ball carrier yet Ponder can't? Shonn Greene is a proven ball carrier yet he has had no runs over 40 yards in his career and maybe 2 or 3 that went for a little over 30? Yeah your logic really makes sense

You knew that statement was coming because you know what your agenda is, why else would you be expecting it? Thats proof right there.

They don't just test well, they did it in college, Ponder ran quite well his sophomore year and Locker ran well throughout his career on the read option, and they tested out with the measurables, but yet that still isn't enough to convince that they can be proven ball carriers? If Russel Wilson never got to run the read option, how would we know he could handle it? he is like 5'11 205 pounds and didn't do it in college. Yet somehow he has the athleticism to do it, yeah keep up with your racist thinking. They can be elusive enough to move around the pocket and run with it when nothing is open. Play through injuries (Locker played through quite a bit in college an still did well) but I guess they still aren't elusive or tough. Yeah, that sure makes a whole lot of sense. Just ignore the whole point about getting hit in the pocket continuously, yeah because that doesn't suit your argument.

Yeah because Manziel is a freak of nature and better than all of these guys combined when it comes to running the ball, but I am sure people will find negatives about him as his career in college goes along, after he won the Heisman they were already saying why he wouldn't translate into an NFL qb.

btw, you don't "know" anything, it called an opinion.

Yeah, I do know they can't run it. I also know what running backs, corner backs and deep threat WRs look like. So yeah, I know they can't run it. And I also knew Russell Wilson could run it. Was I right?

Immediately you delve back in to what you are comfortable with, 40 times. It's pitiful to watch. Call me a racist all you want if it makes you feel better, but the reality doesn't adjust to your wishes. Everyone else knows what you don't want to admit. I can't even get myself up to get mad at you at this point because a) I am too busy feeling sorry for you and b) you'll probably mature out of this one day.

Hey, since you are a number cruncher, just ask yourself one simple question: How is it that basketball, skill and speed positions in football and outfield positions in baseball all dominated by one demographic when that same demographic is only about 12% of the US population?

PS: I guess we agree, Johnnie Football is a real freak of nature.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 08:12 PM
racial stereotyping that starts before high school, go read Tony Dungy's opinion on it. Why do guys like Eric Weddle get converted safety? I guess he doesn't have that magical "hip swivel" despite shutting down Calvin Johnson in a bowl game.

I am not just basing my opinions just on numbers, I am basing them on what I see as well. You are basing them on things you can't measure. and vague opinions about what you see.

Ever notice that white players who play at majority black positions are usually on the elite level? like JJ Watt, Jared Allen, Justin Smith, Clay Matthews etc, or at least above average like Eric Weddle (Harrison Smith is looking like he will be elite, close to it in his first season playing). You won't find any guys playing average to below average at those positions for very long when the league is full of below average guys who bounce around and still manage to get starting time because of their unlimited "upside" that may take 6 years to reach, like a Thomas Jones, not fast, no wiggle, average power only got what the blocking gave him and nothing more, yet he is one of the 30 guys to have 10k rushing, and he didn't rush for 1k until his 6th year in the league, meanwhile Brian Leonard is written off as a starting tailback after a handful of games when 4 of the starting linemen were injured, despite showing flashes, oh yeah the starting qb was out for a while during that period as well and averaged the same ypc Steven Jackson did with those linemen out. Now he is stuck in a 3rd down/fullback role. Why do guys like Brock Forsey get benched after rushing for 100 yards in a game and don't get a shot. Why don't guys get chances to play tailback at the NFL like Jacob Hester, despite running a 4.6 and rushing for 1k in the sec, and looking damn good doing it, putting the team on his back. Why do people say Rex Burkhead must be a fullback when he is 210? Why didn't any NFL team want Jesse Lumsden who ran a 4.4 at like 220 pounds? and tore it up when he played in an all star game. Its all about opportunities. How many crappy corners are out there? plenty, yet I am supposed to believe not one white guy can play corner when I see Jason David get burnt every single game for several years? Please. Guys drafted in the first round at corner not even in the league after 3 years. Every year defensive linemen bust but are never talked about, its always "ryan leaf" or "mike mamula" (whose career wasn't actually that bad when you compare him to other first round picks).

Why is Chase Reynolds stuck on the practice squad when he was a dominant runningback at Montana, better than Lex Hilliard, yet Lex Hilliard has gotten more opportunities than Reynolds has, and they went to the same damn school, but Reynolds was better, and the only reason he even got a shot is because Jeff Fisher's son played with him and is now on the coaching staff, the same reason Mariani got a shot, and surprise, he did well as a return man. If didn't know those guys they wouldn't even be in the league.

Its because coaches put their asses on the line if they put a guy that sticks out there, so he better be pretty damn good because if not everyone will be calling for his head. How many white receivers were starting last year? about the same amount that had 1k seasons. Where are all the marginal players? Yeah there is Kevin Walter who had a primarily blocking role but thats about it. They might get to start for a few years but solid won't cut it, like a Scott Shanle, whenever the defense played horrible he was blamed, even though Jonathan Vilma came out and said he wouldn't be making all the plays he does if it weren't for Shanle. Shanle doens't start in 2012 and the Saints have the worst defense in history, no one single player got blamed. Why is Roman Harper playing when he can't cover worth a damn? he got chased down by Sam Bradford of all people, a 5 second guy. Why didn't anyone want Wes Welker? he was only offered a scholarship because a top recruit pulled out at the last second. If the kicker had kicked any further he wouldn't have had a chance to return it for a td, would have never gotten to lead Miami in receiving and would have never been traded to the Patriots. Chargers didn't want him because "they already had a guy like him in Tim Dwight", Nick Saban wanted to cut him in favor of Marcus Vick. Despite playing 60 percent of the snaps he led Miami in receiving in 2006, oh yeah, and the only other player to have more all purpose yards in his first 3 years was Gale Sayers.

How come a guy who never played football can come in and do so well like Margus Hunt?

You can sit there and live in fantasy land like there is some superiority but there isn't. NFL is only an American sport and rarely do guys from other countries come and play. A guy like Kevin Love can be hated on despite putting up record setting numbers "oh because the team was garbage", its all excuses as to why these guys do so well. There have been a ton of excuses made for Welker as well. Yeah more blacks have broken the 10 second barrier, but only like 30 have broken it in the past decade or so. Thats out of the entire world. LeMaitre, a white man broke it. In high school I see track stars switched to the 400 and 800 meters no matter how good they are at 100 meters. Jordy Nelson ran a 10.6, the same as Devin Hester, and many of whites have run from 10.3 to 10.8, and running in a straight line for 100 meters isn't what makes a great football player. Brian Hartline was a track star as well. Jake Sharp who had tremendous potential at runningback ran a 10.4, these are all high school times.

why are there so many terrible cornerbacks when teams limit themselves to 12 percent of the population? Last year more cornerbacks ran 4.66 or slower than ones that ran 4.5 or faster. Gee, what do they have? I guess its those magical qualities that you can't quantify.

Its the stereotypical thinking of people like you who keep them out, mainly rivals and scout, because they rank like a handful of whites in their top 100. Coaches get benefits from recruiting guys with stars behind their names. Go look up Knile Knapp, led Georgia in rushing, where is he now? working at Chik fil a because they wanted him to walk on and he didn't have the money. Notice how many successful white college players are walk on? not every white kid can afford that. Whites can lead their states in rushing, have great measurables and not get any offers (the other year 26 state leading rushers were white). Why was Gerhart only viewed as a fullback or linebacker by every program at Stanford, and even then they had their doubts, this is after breaking the all time cali rushing record, and being 3rd best in the history of high school, which a hand time of 4.48, which matches up with his electronic time of 4.53.

David Seeman was the starting tailback at John Curtis, not Joe McKnight who was a jack of all trades. McKnight got SHUT DOWN in the state championship, David Seeman was the mvp, he rushed for well over 1k that season, 10 ypc, had the size, ran a 4.5, McKnight is recruited by tons of top programs, Seeman offers by no one.

Why did Swope have to switch to slot receiver? because it seems like that has become a position appropriate for whites now, yet he dominated in high school at tailback and has the size and measurables to back it up and no problems like Christine Michael, btw Welker was also a runningback in high school.

Despite showing they can run with the ball in college, and having the measurables to back it up, I am supposed to believe these guys aren't capable of it in the NFL? why doesn't Tannehill get to run the read option, he played wide receiver for christ sake, I know he has the athletic ability to do it. Its the same stereotypical bs over and over, whites = pocket passers, blacks = dual threats and no one wants to go against the stereotypical thinking.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 08:30 PM
racial stereotyping that starts before high school, go read Tony Dungy's opinion on it. Why do guys like Eric Weddle get converted safety? I guess he doesn't have that magical "hip swivel" despite shutting down Calvin Johnson in a bowl game.

I am not just basing my opinions just on numbers, I am basing them on what I see as well. You are basing them on things you can't measure.

Ever notice that white players who play at majority black positions are usually on the elite level? like JJ Watt, Jared Allen, Justin Smith, Clay Matthews etc, or at least above average like Eric Weddle. You won't find any guys playing average to below average at those positions when the league is full of below average guys who bounce around and still manage to get starting time because of their unlimited "upside" that may take 6 years to reach, like a Thomas Jones, not fast, no wiggle, average power only got what the blocking gave him and nothing more, yet he is one of the 30 guys to have 10k rushing, and he didn't rush for 1k until his 6th year in the league, meanwhile Brian Leonard is written off as a starting tailback after a handful of games when 4 of the starting linemen were injured, despite showing flashes, oh yeah the starting qb was out for a while during that period as well and averaged the same ypc Steven Jackson did with those linemen out. Now he is stuck in a 3rd down/fullback role. Why do guys like Brock Forsey get benched after rushing for 100 yards in a game and don't get a shot. Why don't guys get chances to play tailback at the NFL like Jacob Hester, despite running a 4.6 and rushing for 1k in the sec, and looking damn good doing it, putting the team on his back. Why do people say Rex Burkhead must be a fullback when he is 210? Why didn't any NFL team want Jesse Lumsden who ran a 4.4 at like 220 pounds? and tore it up when he played in an all star game. Its all about opportunities. How many crappy corners are out there? plenty, yet I am supposed to believe not one white guy can play corner when I see Jason David get burnt every single game for several years? Please. Guys drafted in the first round at corner not even in the league after 3 years. Every year defensive linemen bust but are never talked about, its always "ryan leaf" or "mike mamula" (whose career wasn't actually that bad when you compare him to other first round picks).

Its because coaches put their asses on the line if they put a guy that sticks out there, so he better be pretty damn good because if not everyone will be calling for his head. How many white receivers were starting last year? about the same amount that had 1k seasons. Where are all the marginal players? Yeah there is Kevin Walter who had a primarily blocking role but thats about it. They might get to start for a few years but solid won't cut it, like a Scott Shanle, whenever the defense played horrible he was blamed, even though Jonathan Vilma came out and said he wouldn't be making all the plays he does if it weren't for Shanle. Shanle doens't start in 2012 and the Saints have the worst defense in history, no one single player got blamed. Why didn't anyone want Wes Welker? he was only offered a scholarship because a top recruit pulled out at the last second. If the kicker had kicked any further he wouldn't have had a chance to return it for a td, would have never gotten to lead Miami in receiving and would have never been traded to the Patriots. Chargers didn't want him because "they already had a guy like him in Tim Dwight", Nick Saban wanted to cut him in favor of Marcus Vick. Despite playing 60 percent of the snaps he led Miami in receiving in 2006, oh yeah, and the only other player to have more all purpose yards in his first 3 years was Gale Sayers.

How come a guy who never played football can come in and do so well like Margus Hunt?

You can sit there and live in fantasy land like there is some superiority but there isn't. NFL is only an American sport and rarely do guys from other countries come and play. A guy like Kevin Love can be hated on despite putting up record setting numbers "oh because the team was garbage", its all excuses as to why these guys do so well. There have been a ton of excuses made for Welker as well. Yeah more blacks have broken the 10 second barrier, but only like 30 have broken it in the past decade or so. Thats out of the entire world. LeMaitre, a white man broke it. In high school I see track stars switched to the 400 and 800 meters no matter how good they are at 100 meters. Jordy Nelson ran a 10.6, the same as Devin Hester, and many of whites have run from 10.3 to 10.8, and running in a straight line for 100 meters isn't what makes a great football player. Brian Hartline was a track star as well. Jake Sharp who had tremendous potential at runningback ran a 10.4, these are all high school times.

why are there so many terrible cornerbacks when teams limit themselves to 12 percent of the population?

Its the stereotypical thinking of people like you who keep them out, mainly rivals and scout, because they rank like a handful of whites in their top 100. Whites can lead their states in rushing, have great measurables and not get any offers (the other year 26 state leading rushers were white). Why was Gerhart only viewed as a fullback or linebacker by every program at Stanford, and even then they had their doubts, this is after breaking the all time cali rushing record, and being 3rd best in the history of high school, which a hand time of 4.48, which matches up with his electronic time of 4.53

Yeah, it's a real shame you believe you are so smart but in reality, you are completely lost and you don't even realize. I am not even talking about foolish incorrect claims like Gerhart was viewed as a fullback when he was picked in the second round or that Kevin Love, who is a great basketball player but not a great athlete has anything to do with this discussion. But the idea that somehow the lack whites at certain positions such as cornerback is due to them not being able to play the position, oh no no no. It's because the NFL in which the vast majority of owners, front office administrators and head coaches are white, are committing white on white discrimination for god knows what reason. If that is your world view, then bless you and have a nice day. I'm sure you have a some sort of data which supports Warren Moon not being drafted as well.

I'll end this by saying Jason Sehorn was an average to slightly above average CB with excellent size. That's it for my lifetime. Now crunch those numbers.

PS: Rex Burkhead is a nice college running back. He won't be crap in the NFL.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 08:37 PM
David Seeman was the starting tailback at John Curtis, not Joe McKnight who was a jack of all trades. McKnight got SHUT DOWN in the state championship, David Seeman was the mvp, he rushed for well over 1k that season, 10 ypc, had the size, ran a 4.5, McKnight is recruited by tons of top programs, Seeman offers by no one.

Why did Swope have to switch to slot receiver? because it seems like that has become a position appropriate for whites now, yet he dominated in high school at tailback and has the size and measurables to back it up and no problems like Christine Michael, btw Welker was also a runningback in high school.

Despite showing they can run with the ball in college, and having the measurables to back it up, I am supposed to believe these guys aren't capable of it in the NFL? why doesn't Tannehill get to run the read option, he played wide receiver for christ sake, I know he has the athletic ability to do it. Its the same stereotypical bs over and over, whites = pocket passers, blacks = dual threats and no one wants to go against the stereotypical thinking.

yes Warren Moon fits the bill because he was a pocket passer. There is no rule that states whites can't discriminate against whites or have prejudice towards whites, and btw about half of the guys running things are Jews, not white.

Yes blacks have done such a tremendous job at playing corner that is routine for a qb to throw for 4k a season.

It starts with scout and rivals, but goes back to the high school level, guys are weeded out before they even have a chance to prove themselves. Thats why a fullback like Zach Zwinak can come in and put up 1k in the big 10 without even getting carries the 1st 3 games, then the white kid from Iowa had to wait for like 6 injuries and had the best 3 game stretch in Iowa football. It took 6 runningbacks for Peyton Hillis to get a chance and he did very well, next year didn't even see the field, replaced by a slower, smaller Moreno, yeah he made some bonehead mistakes and is plagued by hamstring injuries (probably because his dumbass insists on pulling trucks in the offseason which tightens them up), but he proved that he can be a starting NFL back.

and how exactly is Kevin Love not a great athlete, I guess he gets it all done with that high motor and hustle, right? despite having similar measurables to Blake Griffin

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 08:57 PM
David Seeman was the starting tailback at John Curtis, not Joe McKnight who was a jack of all trades. McKnight got SHUT DOWN in the state championship, David Seeman was the mvp, he rushed for well over 1k that season, 10 ypc, had the size, ran a 4.5, McKnight is recruited by tons of top programs, Seeman offers by no one.

Why did Swope have to switch to slot receiver? because it seems like that has become a position appropriate for whites now, yet he dominated in high school at tailback and has the size and measurables to back it up and no problems like Christine Michael, btw Welker was also a runningback in high school.

Despite showing they can run with the ball in college, and having the measurables to back it up, I am supposed to believe these guys aren't capable of it in the NFL? why doesn't Tannehill get to run the read option, he played wide receiver for christ sake, I know he has the athletic ability to do it. Its the same stereotypical bs over and over, whites = pocket passers, blacks = dual threats and no one wants to go against the stereotypical thinking.

yes Warren Moon fits the bill because he was a pocket passer. There is no rule that states whites can't discriminate against whites or have prejudice towards whites, and btw about half of the guys running things are Jews, not white.

Yes blacks have done such a tremendous job at playing corner that is routine for a qb to throw for 4k a season.

It starts with scout and rivals, but goes back to the high school level, guys are weeded out before they even have a chance to prove themselves. Thats why a fullback like Zach Zwinak can come in and put up 1k in the big 10 without even getting carries the 1st 3 games, then the white kid from Iowa had to wait for like 6 injuries and had the best 3 game stretch in Iowa football. It took 6 runningbacks for Peyton Hillis to get a chance and he did very well, next year didn't even see the field, replaced by a slower, smaller Moreno, yeah he made some bonehead mistakes and is plagued by hamstring injuries (probably because his dumbass insists on pulling trucks in the offseason which tightens them up), but he proved that he can be a starting NFL back.

and how exactly is Kevin Love not a great athlete, I guess he gets it all done with that high motor and hustle, right? despite having similar measurables to Blake Griffin

All these random examples are supposed to prove what, that there is white on white discrimination? Ah, no. You are asking me to believe the utterly ridiculous. If there was a way for a white person to help another white person to get ahead, it would happen just like it happens in other arenas. Are you familiar with the history of the country or not?

Again, I could go through every one of your "examples" and tell you why they aren't example of anything but your own wishful thinking, but I'll pick one for argument sake. Peyton Hillis from a skill standpoint is a very good power runner. Unfortunately, this isn't the 80's and power runners aren't the trend in a pass first league. But the reason Hillis isn't an established starter has nothing to do with stereotyping whatsoever. He isn't a starter because a) he is injury prone, b) most teams nowadays aren't interested in power running offenses, c) he is known to be big prick and d) he is not a three down back. Now, despite all that, it just so happens that this supposed victim of white on white discrimination happened to be selected for the cover of Madden based on one productive year. In your example, I guess you failed to realize that he BENEFITED from being a white running back! If Ron Dane had the exact same production, it would not have crossed anyone's mind to put him on the cover of freaking Madden. Dude, cry me a river.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 09:28 PM
fans voted him on the cover, not the NFL, so that doesn't prove jack. Yeah teams don't want power runners, thats why we have guys like Trent Richardson, Shonn Greene (who just got a new deal with another team), Eddie Lacy is supposed to a be a featured back as well. Hillis is not just a powerback, he has moves as well, and there are plenty of backs like that. He can catch well out of the backfield, he had 60+ catches his season starting, and he had a 100 yard game receiving with the Broncos....so yeah that doesn't fit this passing league? sure....you made an excellent point.

Yea I can't think of any other injury prone backs that get chance after chance, like a Ryan Matthews or a Darren McFadden. Teams still use power runners and one that can catch well is not common, Shonn Greene can't even catch, slower than Hillis as well, yet the Titans plan on him splitting carries with Johnson, him being the thunder.. Hillis had his main injury problems one season, thats it. Was it a passing league when Brandon Jacobs got his chance? yep, was he prone to injury? yep. There are dozens of examples of injury prone backs getting chance after chance. Its not like its his knees, he has a nagging hamstring issue that can easily be corrected. Hillis still has plenty of tread left being that he wasn't a featured back in college (although he played fb, wr, te, return man) and only one season of starting in the NFL. The injury with the Broncos was a fluke, dude landed on his head. Teams are still looking at Beanie Wells despite his injury problems and lack of production, with only 1 good year out of 4, and unlike Hillis, he was given opportunity after opportunity.

Not a 3 down back, except that he is a great pass blocker and can catch extremely well, yeah that makes total sense....

The media in the Cleveland area blew up a few incidents, he got bad advice from his agent and sat out a game and failed to show up at a kid's event, which was his agent's fault, yeah that makes him a big prick somehow, yet he has had no character concerns with the Chiefs or the Broncos. The Browns didn't want him as their back, the new regime wanted their guy and the guy couldn't fart in public without the papers writing about it. Like he is the only player that messed up things due to contract disputes. Please..... Richardson comes in and averages the same ypc as Hillis when he was having nagging injuries (3.6) yet is considered a stud. If he were not white he wouldn't be hated on this much, and apparently putting up 100 yards towards the final of the season despite Charles getting the bulk of the carries means nothing? The Browns with the new staff wanted Montario Hardesty to be the feature back but he kept injuring his knees, yet they still wanted him and he was garbage when he was finally healthy, so they drafted Richardson, and why is it that despite having similar production (actually Hillis had better) and measurables out of high school, Wells was considered one of the top tailbacks, and Hillis one of the top fullbacks?

Id love to hear you go through all of these examples, because those are only some, like how Nate Kmic broke the all time rushing record with 8k yards, ran a 4.5, small but not that small, like 5'9 200, yet no tryout or anything. Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts from the same school got plenty of opportunities. Danny Woodhead broke the record before him, put up great numbers at his pro day (not invited to the combine) and went undrafted, Jets wanted to keep Clowney over him, now he is used as a utilitiy player when he should be getting at least half the carries, he is comparable to Darren Sproles, except bigger. The rushing leader before that was Justin Beaver, ran a 4.3 at his pro day, no interest from the NFL either.

Dude I coach high school football and was an assistant at the FCS level, and white coaches believe it or not! still have stereotypical views on players, without even seeing a kid play they are slotted to their racially appropriate position. So you think whites have this secret society where they help out other whites all the time. Get over yourself.

The only thing he benefited from by being white is being put on the Madden cover whoopty doo, which has nothing to do with how coaches use him on the field. He was 6th among backs that year with yards from scrimmage and had double digit tds. Ron Dayne was a big guy that ran with no power, people liked seeing Hillis run over people and hurting them, as well as jumping over people.

Black Bolt
03-15-2013, 09:51 PM
fans voted him on the cover, not the NFL, so that doesn't prove jack. Yeah teams don't want power runners, thats why we have guys like Trent Richardson, Shonn Greene (who just got a new deal with another team), Eddie Lacy is supposed to a be a featured back as well. Hillis is not just a powerback, he has moves as well, and there are plenty of backs like that. He can catch well out of the backfield, he had 60+ catches his season starting, and he had a 100 yard game receiving with the Broncos....so yeah that doesn't fit this passing league? sure....you made an excellent point.

Yea I can't think of any other injury prone backs that get chance after chance, like a Ryan Matthews or a Darren McFadden. Teams still use power runners and one that can catch well is not common, Shonn Greene can't even catch, slower than Hillis as well, yet the Titans plan on him splitting carries with Johnson, him being the thunder.. Hillis had his main injury problems one season, thats it. Was it a passing league when Brandon Jacobs got his chance? yep, was he prone to injury? yep. There are dozens of examples of injury prone backs getting chance after chance. Its not like its his knees, he has a nagging hamstring issue that can easily be corrected. Hillis still has plenty of tread left being that he wasn't a featured back in college (although he played fb, wr, te, return man) and only one season of starting in the NFL. The injury with the Broncos was a fluke, dude landed on his head. Teams are still looking at Beanie Wells despite his injury problems and lack of production, with only 1 good year out of 4, and unlike Hillis, he was given opportunity after opportunity.

The media in the Cleveland area blew up a few incidents, he got bad advice from his agent and sat out a game and failed to show up at a kid's event, which was his agent's fault, yeah that makes him a big prick somehow, yet he has had no character concerns with the Chiefs or the Broncos. The Browns didn't want him as their back, the new regime wanted their guy and the guy couldn't fart in public without the papers writing about it. Like he is the only player that messed up things due to contract disputes. Please..... Richardson comes in and averages the same ypc as Hillis when he was having nagging injuries (3.6) yet is considered a stud. If he were not white he wouldn't be hated on this much, and apparently putting up 100 yards towards the final of the season despite Charles getting the bulk of the carries means nothing? The Browns with the new staff wanted Montario Hardesty to be the feature back but he kept injuring his knees, yet they still wanted him and he was garbage when he was finally healthy, so they drafted Richardson

Id love to hear you go through all of these examples, because those are only some, like how Nate Kmic broke the all time rushing record with 8k yards, ran a 4.5, small but not that small, like 5'9 200, yet no tryout or anything. Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts from the same school got plenty of opportunities. Danny Woodhead broke the record before him, put up great numbers at his pro day (not invited to the combine) and went undrafted, Jets wanted to keep Clowney over him, now he is used as a utilitiy player when he should be getting at least half the carries, he is comparable to Darren Sproles, except bigger. The rushing leader before that was Justin Beaver, ran a 4.3 at his pro day, no interest from the NFL either.

Dude I coach high school football and was an assistant at the FCS level, and white coaches believe it or not! still have stereotypical views on players, without even seeing a kid play they are slotted to their racially appropriate position. So you think whites have this secret society where they help out other whites all the time. Get over yourself.

Um, it's not a secret and none of this is about me. At this point I'm going to say go ahead and lead your idiotic one man revolution against imaginary white on white discrimination and get out of my face.

batsandgats
03-15-2013, 09:58 PM
yeah thats why blacks can commit multiple crimes and still be in the NFL but Matt Jones gets caught with coke once and is labeled a problem, violated parole for drinking a beer and is out of the league, despite being on pace for 1k his final year in the league, I guess there is no room for a 6'6 guy that runs a 4.37, even though they didn't utilize that speed, had him running posession receiver routes because Garrard couldn't throw deep. Not to mention the fact he never played receiver before and was still learning the position, and as you can see he was getting the hang of it his final year, which without the suspension he wouldve cracked 1k. Meanwhile Pac Man Jones is still in the league, and many other guys who have committed multiple crimes, much worse like beating their girlfriends. What did Terrel Suggs do again, I forget?

and blacks don't help out other blacks? notice how many people on espn and nfl network are black? Eric Dickerson saying that rb is "their position" and blacks stating they play harder for a black coach? Whites have no loyalty a guy if he is white, unless he is family and stab each other in the back constantly.

yeah there is no white on white discrimination except for the fact I see it every year in football and basketball. Keep living in that bubble of yours.

yeah good job at defending your argument with one examples full of holes by calling me an idiot and telling me to get out of your face, I guess its too much for you.....even though Im not in your face, I am on the internet. You had an opinion and I stated mine. I am not the only one, there are man others that realize the discrimination that exists in sports. And I am supposedly the idiot for realizing that people can discriminate against people of the same race, yeah that doesn't exist at all.

and I would love to know where all these white people are that are so willing to help out other whites because I'm struggling pretty bad with money (you know the crappy economy and everything and teacher/coaches don't make that much) and got two mouths to feed, can you direct me to them?

FUNBUNCHER
03-16-2013, 12:06 AM
Wow. This thread. WTF happened???
Like a street fight between the Black Panthers and the KKK.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/791/597/panthers_original_display_image.jpghttp://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00637/news-graphics-2007-_637348a.jpg

Oh, and European Jews are White. You don't have to be a WASP to be White, and the religion you practice doesn't determine your race/ethnicity.

The NFL is the closest thing we have to a pure meritocracy in American society. Yeah White skill position players have a higher hurdle to clear than Blacks, but it's not like it's impossible.

WCH
03-16-2013, 12:11 AM
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FUNBUNCHER again."

Yeah, this thread really went downhill fast.

G Mobile
03-16-2013, 04:49 AM
Bro, life is just trying to hold the white man down. How do you not see that? /s

It just doesn't mesh with reality. In a business where people are desperate for any advantage there isn't room for racism when your job is constantly on the line. You have to reach to find examples while the majority of the counter argument is everything else in the sport. Acting like other people are idiots doesn't make your smarter than them.



I think the read option is a fad anyways. If your QB is an effective passer the additional hits aren't worth it. The equivalent of a QB getting hit on a option isn't getting hit on a pass instead. It would be just standing there after the hand off on a running play. A QB not running is always safer than him running.

Read option plays have a place currently in the NFL. It helps young QBs who aren't advanced passers yet to make defenses have to worry and adjust to the offense. It forces the defense to account and simplify so they can react quicker. Hopefully the QB will develop and they run less and less. If Peyton Manning could run like Vick, he still wouldn't do it often. Its not worth the injury risk.

I disagree that Ponder couldn't do some read option stuff. I think he is near Wilson, but I don't think either are particularly well suited to run in the NFL. Both will be pocket passers to be successful. They could occasionally do it but aren't special runners.

Griffin, Newton and Kaepernick are all a clear cut above in athleticism and running ability. They all ran a ton in college and they have a better feel for it. Newton doesn't have the raw explosion and speed, but he is a tank and know how to wiggle. He can power through arm tackles with ease.

cmarq83
03-16-2013, 07:14 AM
yeah thats why blacks can commit multiple crimes and still be in the NFL but Matt Jones gets caught with coke once and is labeled a problem, violated parole for drinking a beer and is out of the league, despite being on pace for 1k his final year in the league, I guess there is no room for a 6'6 guy that runs a 4.37, even though they didn't utilize that speed, had him running posession receiver routes because Garrard couldn't throw deep. Not to mention the fact he never played receiver before and was still learning the position, and as you can see he was getting the hang of it his final year, which without the suspension he wouldve cracked 1k. Meanwhile Pac Man Jones is still in the league, and many other guys who have committed multiple crimes, much worse like beating their girlfriends. What did Terrel Suggs do again, I forget?

and blacks don't help out other blacks? notice how many people on espn and nfl network are black? Eric Dickerson saying that rb is "their position" and blacks stating they play harder for a black coach? Whites have no loyalty a guy if he is white, unless he is family and stab each other in the back constantly.

yeah there is no white on white discrimination except for the fact I see it every year in football and basketball. Keep living in that bubble of yours.

yeah good job at defending your argument with one examples full of holes by calling me an idiot and telling me to get out of your face, I guess its too much for you.....even though Im not in your face, I am on the internet. You had an opinion and I stated mine. I am not the only one, there are man others that realize the discrimination that exists in sports. And I am supposedly the idiot for realizing that people can discriminate against people of the same race, yeah that doesn't exist at all.

and I would love to know where all these white people are that are so willing to help out other whites because I'm struggling pretty bad with money (you know the crappy economy and everything and teacher/coaches don't make that much) and got two mouths to feed, can you direct me to them?

When did NFLDC turn into Caste Football?

Black Bolt
03-16-2013, 07:55 AM
Bro, life is just trying to hold the white man down. How do you not see that?

It just doesn't mesh with reality. In a business where people are desperate for any advantage there isn't room for racism when your job is constantly on the line. You have to reach to find examples while the majority of the counter argument is everything else in the sport. Acting like other people are idiots doesn't make your smarter than them.


Whew. I probably should have cut this off before giving him an outlet to express his insanity. Oh, the persecution of the white athlete in America. He's probably writing ESPN to get them to do a 30/30 special. Well, now that he has gone full fledged racism, I'll let him have the stage. Let me end this the proper way.

Hey "batsingats" I apologize for pointing out that white men aren't very good at positions like running back and corner back. What was I thinking? I mean, Sehorn, Woodhead, Hillis, the list is endless!! Oh, and now that you've helped me clear my head, you are correct about Rex Burkhead. I expect Pro Bowls. I'm going to go ahead and pre-order my jersey on draft day. I am even going to consider changing my handle. Who cares if Black Bolt is a white Marvel Comics character who lives on the moon, I understand it makes you uncomfortable and the last thing I want to do is offend a revolutionary such as yourself. "batsingats" is so much more acceptable to the mainstream. Oh, and you are right, Kevin Love is amazing! I mean when I think of the amazing athletes of the NBA, I automatically picture Lebron, Wade, Griffin and Love walking in the air, saying no to gravity. And as soon as we create a rule that forces teams with athletic QBs to at least consider the read option, we'll seen Christian Ponder and Jake Locker take the NFL by storm! You know, that good old boy read option network is as strong as Teflon. As a credit to you, I say we call it the "Loony Rule." Thanks for your enlightenment on this day.

batsandgats
03-16-2013, 12:08 PM
Hey "batsingats" I apologize for pointing out that white men aren't very good at positions like running back and corner back.

I am glad you admitted you are racist. Yeah whites just stopped being able to run the ball after 1985, even though there were a bunch of good ones and great ones up until that point, well after the league was integrated, and I guess they forgot how to play corner as well. I mean who can keep up with these guys who get burnt on the regular basis now in the NFL? when more prospects ran over 4.66 last year than ones that ran under 4.5, yet I am supposed to believe only one or two white corners can hang at the college level? sure.

as for my username, its a reference from a band I liked in the late 90's, early 2000's. Yeah that is totally unacceptable....

btw, Love has the same exact vertical as Griffin, well maybe like .5 difference if I recall correctly, Love jumped 35 and Griffin 35 1/2, yeah that must be a big difference. It must kill you to think that whites can actually play football and just aren't getting the opportunity and you seem desperate to keep it that way. Apparently it doesn't matter what the kid does in college, what measurables he puts up etc, he just doesn't pass the "eye test" for you. Like I said good white corners are converted to safety, most in the college level. Eric Weddle was converted to safety in the NFL, despite having the size and speed of a corner and shutting down Calvin Johnson in their bowl game. I guess he doesn't have that magical hip swivel. Hillis when healthy has shown he can be a great back, 6th in the league for yards from scrimmage the year he started and was averaging 5 ypc in Denver and put up 120+ yards on the number 1 ranked rush defense at the time, getting better each game. Woodhead has never gotten the chance to be a featured runner, or even split carries, yet he did get 1k from scrimmage in 2010 and averaged 5.6 ypc (he didn't even play the first couple of games so I'm including the playoff game against the Jets). Gerhart is stuck behind Adrian Peterson and has shown he can be a featured back by his play when Peterson went down. If they don't get the opportunities then how are they supposed to show their talent. Brock Forsey ran for 100 yards because of injuries to other backs and Lovie Smith said "who is that the waterboy?" and he was let go. Pretty much every time a white has gotten a chance to run the ball, they have done well.

but what was I thinking, theres no way whites can hang with the likes of benjarvus green-ellis, Shonn Greene, Alfred Morris, Cedric Benson, Stevan Ridley, Ahmad Bradshaw, Vick Ballard, Jonathan Dwyer, Pierre Thomas, Beanie Wells, Michael Bush, LeGarrete Blount, Donald Brown, Brandon Jacobs. Even though there are plenty of whites with similar skillsets, usually bulked up in college to play fullback. Jacob Hester was much better than Stevan Ridley in college, but I guess leading his team to a national championship doesn't count, and running faster than Blount, Dwyer, Greene, Benjarvus Green Ellis, Pierre Thomas etc. Even though his 10 yard split was 1.5, the same as Darren McFadden. I mean Heath Evans was used at tailback and put up 100 yards from scrimmage, as a bulked up fullback, yeah Im sure he couldn't have kept doing that. All of those guys have amazing skillsets like Shonn Greene with his 3 runs over 30 yards in 822 attempts, none over 40, not to mention most of those guys can't catch out of the backfield or pass block. Why do you think they had Woodhead on 3rd downs? cuz he could pass protect better than the bigger Stevan Ridley, and catch better as well.

Yeah the NFL is a business, but they still are making a tremendous profit regardless if they overlook some talented players. Why do crappy teams continue to suck when they keep drafting the top 10 players who were so highly touted coming out of high school? The Texans, the Patriots and Broncos are some of the top teams in the NFL and they don't discriminate as badly as other teams. Coincidence? The Texans don't even have an elite qb and did fine with TJ Yates. Before the Broncos it was the Colts, who were pretty much similar to what the Broncos look like right now. Not saying other teams suck, there are good majority black teams like the Steelers, although they did have a few whites on defense a while back and seem to be going downhill lately, its just that 12 percent is a small talent pool to select from and if you keep an open mind about things and add a little diversity then you are probably going to have more talent to select from and I am not just talking about whites, I am talking about all the others as well, like Samoans. Teo is said to be slow at 4.8 but Spikes ran a 5 second 40. Teo showed he has sideline to sideline coverage ability.

"When did NFLDC turn into Caste Football?" I don't need to go to some offensive racist website to realize there is discrimination in sports. I checked it out and my views are not offensive like some of the posters on that site.

back to the conversation, I see no reason why Ponder couldn't run the read option 10 to 15 times a game and there are several people who agree with me on that

FUNBUNCHER
03-16-2013, 12:38 PM
Blake Griffin, Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick, all of them supreme athletes, are also biracial.

So I'm going to split the baby and give each of you half.

Black Bolt
03-16-2013, 01:00 PM
Blake Griffin, Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick, all of them supreme athletes, are also biracial.

So I'm going to split the baby and give each of you half.

Courtland Finnegan, Jimmy Graham, etc. LOL, me and a friend touched on this a while ago. A super race is being born! :evil_laugh: