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View Full Version : Who will be the first 300+ lb Hall of Famer?


EricCartmann
06-16-2011, 01:39 PM
Warren Sapp?

For Offensive Line, Orlando Pace?

K Train
06-16-2011, 01:40 PM
ogden or sapp

EricCartmann
06-16-2011, 01:42 PM
ogden or sapp

oh yeah, forgot about Ogden.

Monomach
06-16-2011, 02:03 PM
It's already happened. Guess you missed it.

Reggie White and Gary Zimmerman both managed to get over 300 in their careers.

boknows34
06-17-2011, 01:59 AM
Zimmerman is officially listed at 294lbs on the HOF website with Reggie White at 291lbs though I'm certain both tipped the scales at 300+ at one point in their careers. Bruce Matthews is also listed at 289.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PLAYER_ID=259

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PLAYER_ID=257

Pro Football Reference has Cortez Kennedy listed at 305lbs and he has a great chance for the Class of 2012 along with 320lb Willie Roaf. Both made the cut down to the last 10 for the 2011 Class with 288lb Dermontti Dawson. Jon Ogden, Warren Sapp and Larry Allen are all 300+ and eligible in 2013 it what is looking like a tremendous and very 'big' class. Walter Jones and Orlando Pace join the ballot in 2015. Its fair to say the HOF will be adding a lot of beef in the next 5-6 years.

jack1077
06-17-2011, 07:24 AM
Jamarcus Russell.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
06-17-2011, 03:57 PM
Jamarcus Russell.

Jared Lorenzen

EricCartmann
06-17-2011, 07:23 PM
Jamarcus Russell.

Is he coming out this year?

niel89
06-17-2011, 07:29 PM
Is he coming out this year?

Yes, so you better get this party started.

EricCartmann
06-17-2011, 08:26 PM
Yes, so you better get this party started.

AWESOME! He is big and has the Arm Strength and Mel Kiper says he is "John Elway" like.

wordofi
06-23-2011, 09:33 AM
Zimmerman is officially listed at 294lbs on the HOF website with Reggie White at 291lbs though I'm certain both tipped the scales at 300+ at one point in their careers. Bruce Matthews is also listed at 289.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PLAYER_ID=259

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?PLAYER_ID=257

Pro Football Reference has Cortez Kennedy listed at 305lbs and he has a great chance for the Class of 2012 along with 320lb Willie Roaf. Both made the cut down to the last 10 for the 2011 Class with 288lb Dermontti Dawson. Jon Ogden, Warren Sapp and Larry Allen are all 300+ and eligible in 2013 it what is looking like a tremendous and very 'big' class. Walter Jones and Orlando Pace join the ballot in 2015. Its fair to say the HOF will be adding a lot of beef in the next 5-6 years.

Don't be surprised to see Willie Roaf, Larry Allen, and Jon Ogden in the same class.

boknows34
06-24-2011, 12:20 AM
Don't be surprised to see Willie Roaf, Larry Allen, and Jon Ogden in the same class.

I agree but I really hope Roaf gets elected with Dawson in 2012. I'm predicting the next two Classes will be 'huge' with Cortez Kennedy joining Roaf/Dawson in 2012 and Ogden/Allen/Sapp in 2013.

BigBanger
06-24-2011, 04:42 PM
Willie Roaf is a Top 5 LT of all time. He should already be in.

Splat
06-24-2011, 04:56 PM
Add Will Shields to the all ready strong list of OL men becoming eligible for the HOF.

MidwestJimmy
06-28-2011, 02:49 PM
Wow, I'm surprised nobody in the Hall of Fame weighed 300+ consistently. This is a great question. A name that hasn't been mentioned is Ted Washington. If the question was 300 tons he would still be eligible. [LOL]

JaMarcus Russell
That's hilarious!

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Willie Roaf is a Top 5 LT of all time. He should already be in.


Latest doesn't equate to 'greatest'.

Roaf is a future HOFer, but to say he's top five alltime, over guys like Jim Tyrer, Lachey, Jacoby, Erik Williams, Lomas Brown, Bruce Armstrong and Will Wolford, NONE of whom are in the Hall are probably won't ever be without consideration from the veteran's committee, is IMO a gross overstatement.

No two positions more disrespected on the offensive side of the football by the HOF than offensive tackle and maybe Center.

Ogden isn't even eligible yet, and I bet he goes in before Roaf.

IMO for every OT that's inducted into the HOF, there's at least 3 more who also deserve a bust in Canton.

Splat
06-29-2011, 01:47 PM
I don't think you watched Roaf play enough.

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2011, 01:58 PM
Typical thinking, the NFL didn't start playing football until the mid 1990s.

Roaf isn't a first ballot HOFer, and I doubt he's a finalist for the 2012 class.

Just the nature of the position, and has nothing at all to do with his ability.

Splat
06-29-2011, 02:11 PM
So I guess any player playing right now can't be top 5 all time at their position because they didn't play 50 years ago.

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2011, 03:33 PM
So I guess any player playing right now can't be top 5 all time at their position because they didn't play 50 years ago.


LOL!!

Every player I listed except for Jim Tyrer played during the last 25 years.

If you think Roaf is top 5 alltime, it means you can't make a top 20 list of the NFL's best OTs.

SativaDominant
06-29-2011, 04:22 PM
LOL!!

Every player I listed except for Jim Tyrer played during the last 25 years.

If you think Roaf is top 5 alltime, it means you can't make a top 20 list of the NFL's best OTs.

The Modern NFL fan's Top 5 of All-Time:

1. Jon Ogden
2. Orlando Pace
3. Anthony Munoz (your assertion is now invalidated!)
4. Walter Jones
5. Willie Roaf

FUNBUNCHER
06-29-2011, 07:36 PM
The Modern NFL fan's Top 5 of All-Time:

1. Jon Ogden
2. Orlando Pace
3. Anthony Munoz (your assertion is now invalidated!)
4. Walter Jones
5. Willie Roaf

Glad you speak for a nation of millions of football fans.

That's basically an All-Decade team except for Munoz, who's always a trendy addition to any 'best of' list.

You're missing the point, which is, there is no position that's had more great players who as a group have been under-represented or flat out ignored by the HOF.

Boselli/Gary Zimmerman/Art Shell/Jim Lachey/Richmond Webb = top 5 alltime.

And I could do this 4 times over.

K Train
06-29-2011, 08:06 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/willie-roaf-hall-of-fame-snub-is-going-to-make-me-cry-020311

i actually think this is a good read about roaf and the hall of fame....little dramatic but probably true

boknows34
06-29-2011, 10:43 PM
Typical thinking, the NFL didn't start playing football until the mid 1990s.

Roaf isn't a first ballot HOFer, and I doubt he's a finalist for the 2012 class.

Just the nature of the position, and has nothing at all to do with his ability.

Roaf was a finalist for the 2011 Class, which was his 1st year of eligibility, and made the cut down to the last 10 with D.Dawson, Cortez Kennedy, Curtis Martin and Andre Reed. I'd say his chances of getting elected in 2012, which doesn't have any slam dunk 1st ballot names, is actually very good. He's a virtual lock to be a finalist (Top 15 modern era).

boknows34
06-29-2011, 10:56 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/willie-roaf-hall-of-fame-snub-is-going-to-make-me-cry-020311

i actually think this is a good read about roaf and the hall of fame....little dramatic but probably true

Its Jason Whitlock. I can't take anything he says seriously. To say that only ''Idiots believe Jonathan Ogden was a better player,'' is ludicrous. Twitlock worked for a Kansas City newspaper during Roaf's prime with the Chiefs so he's probably not the most unbiased of opinions. I think most pundits would regard Ogden as the best of his era with Roaf, W.Jones and Pace close behind, while Boselli might have been the greatest of them all but for injuries.

FUNBUNCHER
06-30-2011, 08:00 AM
It's funny how much WHitlock slobbers all over Roaf, yet in the same column says that Center Dermontti Dawson isn't HOF worthy.smh

Admitting my Skins bias, but OT Joe Jacoby went up against Reggie White AND Lawrence Taylor four times a year and anchored along with Russ Grimm one of the best Olines of the 1980s.

At 6'7, 300#, for a long time Jacoby was the prototype for the modern era LT.

The only way Jacoby makes it to Canton is if he buys a ticket.

It's such a subjective position predicated on fan memory, in that it's more based on how an Olineman looked on film and not stats, that I promise you when Joe Thomas retires, modern fans will forget all about Roaf.

It's not fair, but that's the way it goes.

BTW, who thinks Roaf is better than Ogden?? Roaf may have been a devastating run blocker, but there was no better pass blocker IMO than Ogden.

K Train
06-30-2011, 08:12 AM
like i said a little dramatic and a little too sensitive and extreme on his opinions but i wouldnt be surprised to see roaf get snubbed for a while but hes clearly deserving. Roaf and shields were a legendary left side. i honestly thought the chiefs were gonna try to duplicate that with albert and monroe when they had the opportunity

Splat
06-30-2011, 09:26 AM
like i said a little dramatic and a little too sensitive and extreme on his opinions but i wouldnt be surprised to see roaf get snubbed for a while but hes clearly deserving. Roaf and shields were a legendary left side. i honestly thought the chiefs were gonna try to duplicate that with albert and monroe when they had the opportunity

Will Shields played RG.

K Train
06-30-2011, 09:33 AM
i blush (10 char)

SativaDominant
06-30-2011, 10:36 AM
Glad you speak for a nation of millions of football fans.

That's basically an All-Decade team except for Munoz, who's always a trendy addition to any 'best of' list.

You're missing the point, which is, there is no position that's had more great players who as a group have been under-represented or flat out ignored by the HOF.

Boselli/Gary Zimmerman/Art Shell/Jim Lachey/Richmond Webb = top 5 alltime.

And I could do this 4 times over.

I was being sarcastic, and I completely agree with you! Stop ruining my fun. :P

Believe me, I hate the "flavor of the month is the GOAT" reactions of NFL fans more than anybody.

BigBanger
06-30-2011, 01:33 PM
Latest doesn't equate to 'greatest'.
Well, with the speed and strength of DEs improving during the 80s and 90s, I'm inclined to believe that latest actually does mean a little more since LTs are being asked to block more physically gifted pass rushers, with a much wider range of pass rushing moves.

Roaf was a monster, and, yes, a top 5 LT. I think he was the best run blocking LT I've ever seen.


Ogden isn't even eligible yet, and I bet he goes in before Roaf.
Ogden is the best LT of all-time (just ahead of Munoz). He should be a first ballot Hall of Famer without question.

FUNBUNCHER
06-30-2011, 02:27 PM
DEs from the 1980s and 1990s; Howie Long, Reggie White, Chris Doleman, Bruce Smith, Neil Smith, Richard Dent, Charles Mann, Dexter Manley, Leonard Marshall, Rulon Jones, Sean Jones, Mark Gastineau, Dan Hampton, Lee Roy Selmon.

You really think these guys would struggle to be pro bowlers in today's NFL???
They all still have prototypical size/strength/speed for the position, despite starring in the NFL 15-25 years ago.

If you were a great OT in the late 1980s and '90s, you were a great OT, period, and IMO would be a star in today's NFL. Very few big athletes of any era have the lateral foot speed or quickness at upwards of 290+# to consistently block the top pass rushing DEs.

Maybe pre-1990 is too much ancient history for most on this forum, but I can't believe some of you are writing off the greatness of players who competed in the 1990s.

It's fine if you feel that Roaf is top 5 alltime, but that's far from a universal sentiment, simply because of the number of great OTs who played longer than Roaf and were better in all phases of the game, not just run blocking.

Splat
06-30-2011, 05:49 PM
It's fine if you feel that Roaf is top 5 alltime, but that's far from a universal sentiment, simply because of the number of great OTs who played longer than Roaf and were better in all phases of the game, not just run blocking.

You keep saying this like Roaf wasn't a great pass blocker.

FUNBUNCHER
06-30-2011, 07:14 PM
I'm gonna stop banging on Roaf because it comes across IMO like I think he's not HOF worthy or arguably the best OT of his generation.

I just don't like top 5 lists alltime for Olineman that basically only includes players from the last 15 years.

There are tackles I like better than him, that's all.

Splat
06-30-2011, 08:04 PM
There are tackles I like better than him, that's all.

Fair enough.

nepg
07-01-2011, 08:33 AM
It's funny how much WHitlock slobbers all over Roaf, yet in the same column says that Center Dermontti Dawson isn't HOF worthy.smh

Admitting my Skins bias, but OT Joe Jacoby went up against Reggie White AND Lawrence Taylor four times a year and anchored along with Russ Grimm one of the best Olines of the 1980s.

At 6'7, 300#, for a long time Jacoby was the prototype for the modern era LT.

The only way Jacoby makes it to Canton is if he buys a ticket.

It's such a subjective position predicated on fan memory, in that it's more based on how an Olineman looked on film and not stats, that I promise you when Joe Thomas retires, modern fans will forget all about Roaf.

It's not fair, but that's the way it goes.

BTW, who thinks Roaf is better than Ogden?? Roaf may have been a devastating run blocker, but there was no better pass blocker IMO than Ogden.
Roaf was definitely better than Ogden. I agree with your Dawson comment, though. And Whitlock is ********.

K Train
07-01-2011, 08:35 AM
im kinda on the roaf>ogden train. hes being talk about an awful lot like all he could do is run block which just isnt true, he was just a masterful run blocker...i never really thought that would overshadow his overall game

jack1077
07-03-2011, 11:02 AM
im kinda on the roaf>ogden train. hes being talk about an awful lot like all he could do is run block which just isnt true, he was just a masterful run blocker...i never really thought that would overshadow his overall game

It is the same as an actor being Typecast. Kramer from Seinfeld is a great comedian, unfortunately he is only ever going to be Kramer to most people.

BigBanger
07-06-2011, 04:20 AM
DEs from the 1980s and 1990s; Howie Long, Reggie White, Chris Doleman, Bruce Smith, Neil Smith, Richard Dent, Charles Mann, Dexter Manley, Leonard Marshall, Rulon Jones, Sean Jones, Mark Gastineau, Dan Hampton, Lee Roy Selmon.

You really think these guys would struggle to be pro bowlers in today's NFL???
They all still have prototypical size/strength/speed for the position, despite starring in the NFL 15-25 years ago.

If you were a great OT in the late 1980s and '90s, you were a great OT, period, and IMO would be a star in today's NFL. Very few big athletes of any era have the lateral foot speed or quickness at upwards of 290+# to consistently block the top pass rushing DEs.

Maybe pre-1990 is too much ancient history for most on this forum, but I can't believe some of you are writing off the greatness of players who competed in the 1990s.

It's fine if you feel that Roaf is top 5 alltime, but that's far from a universal sentiment, simply because of the number of great OTs who played longer than Roaf and were better in all phases of the game, not just run blocking.
I think you should re-read my post. I'm pretty sure I said DEs improved during the 80s and 90s. Pretty sure I said that. I implied that the best OTs were from the 80s up until now (Maybe you also missed the part of the post where I said Munoz was the second best OT to Jonathan Ogden. Munoz played in the 80s). Not from the 00s, which you assumed.

Your whole response was based off of assumptions just so you could refer to the 80s as ancient history.

stlouisfan37
07-13-2011, 07:42 AM
Interesting question. I was working in a restaurant several years ago when I overheard a man talking about Canton. I have always wanted to go, so I jumped right into the conversation. It turned out that his Dad was Bob St. Clair from the 49ers.

I don't know how much smoke this guy was blowing, but I had no reason to believe that he was lying. He told me that his Dad was listed at 265, but that was his college weight, and players back then - especially linemen - would always try to claim a lower weight than it actually was, because otherwise the coaches would work them harder. Because Bob was such a standout player, he would report to camp, tell the trainer he weighed 265 and go on his way. As long as he was a great player no one messed with him.

In any case, this guy said his Dad played at over 300 pounds for much of his career. From the old photos, it wouldn't surprise me. He was a big man.

stlouisfan37
07-13-2011, 07:52 AM
I'm not sure who will be eligible first, but I bet Larry Allen gets in. He retired in '07.

stlouisfan37
07-13-2011, 08:11 AM
DEs from the 1980s and 1990s; Howie Long, Reggie White, Chris Doleman, Bruce Smith, Neil Smith, Richard Dent, Charles Mann, Dexter Manley, Leonard Marshall, Rulon Jones, Sean Jones, Mark Gastineau, Dan Hampton, Lee Roy Selmon.

You really think these guys would struggle to be pro bowlers in today's NFL???
They all still have prototypical size/strength/speed for the position, despite starring in the NFL 15-25 years ago.

If you were a great OT in the late 1980s and '90s, you were a great OT, period, and IMO would be a star in today's NFL. Very few big athletes of any era have the lateral foot speed or quickness at upwards of 290+# to consistently block the top pass rushing DEs.

Maybe pre-1990 is too much ancient history for most on this forum, but I can't believe some of you are writing off the greatness of players who competed in the 1990s.

It's fine if you feel that Roaf is top 5 alltime, but that's far from a universal sentiment, simply because of the number of great OTs who played longer than Roaf and were better in all phases of the game, not just run blocking.

I have to say that I agree that a few of these players you mentioned could play in any era, but I don't think most could. Players are so much bigger and faster today than they were in the 80's. You take a typical defensive end from today's game and he would absolutely destroy interior linemen from the 80's. Today's ends and linebackers would have a field day with 260 pound guards and 280 pound tackles. The opposite is true as well. Those ends from back in the day would have no idea what to do with 320 pound linemen whose knuckles scrape the ground. Were they great players? Absolutely. Could some of them play in today's game and have success? Yes. Would many, if any of them, dominate? I don't think they would.

FUNBUNCHER
07-13-2011, 10:52 AM
I purposefully picked DEs from the '80s and '90s who are HOFers or borderline candidates, so I wasn't exactly being objective.

The average height and weight of the guys I listed I would say is about 6'4/265-280# with many of them having 4.7 speed or better.

But would just an average DE from 1988 be a starter 2011?? Maybe a backup, if that.

I think people sometimes forget the same bench marks for strength,( 400+# BP/500+# squat/300# power clean) and speed/quickness we had in the late '80s and 1990s are the same ones we have today for most lineman. I'd say the difference in speed on average is maybe a tenth of a second in the forty.

Olineman overall yes are bigger today but I wonder how much difference there is between a 290# guard in 1985 and a 305-315# guard today. Extra bulk makes is easier to anchor against Dlineman, maybe that's were the distinction really matters.

Anyway, if guys like Dumervil, KVB and Trent Cole are stars in today's game with less than ideal measurables, I don't think there's been this huge athletic or talent jump among NFL DEs and Olineman, generally speaking, since the late 80s.

The Olineman as a group probably are about 25# bigger on average nowadays, as are the interior Dlineman.

But out on the edge it's still about quickness, speed, lateral movement and hand usage, now or 20-25 years ago.

phlysac
07-13-2011, 11:42 AM
Interesting question. I was working in a restaurant several years ago when I overheard a man talking about Canton. I have always wanted to go, so I jumped right into the conversation. It turned out that his Dad was Bob St. Clair from the 49ers.

I don't know how much smoke this guy was blowing, but I had no reason to believe that he was lying. He told me that his Dad was listed at 265, but that was his college weight, and players back then - especially linemen - would always try to claim a lower weight than it actually was, because otherwise the coaches would work them harder. Because Bob was such a standout player, he would report to camp, tell the trainer he weighed 265 and go on his way. As long as he was a great player no one messed with him.

In any case, this guy said his Dad played at over 300 pounds for much of his career. From the old photos, it wouldn't surprise me. He was a big man.

Wouldn't necessarily surprise me. He was 6'9".

stlouisfan37
07-13-2011, 06:29 PM
I purposefully picked DEs from the '80s and '90s who are HOFers or borderline candidates, so I wasn't exactly being objective.

The average height and weight of the guys I listed I would say is about 6'4/265-280# with many of them having 4.7 speed or better.

But would an just an average DE from 1988 be a starter 2011?? Maybe a backup, if that.

I think people sometimes forget the same bench marks for strength,( 400+# BP/500+# squat/300# power clean) and speed/quickness we had in the late '80s and 1990s are the same ones we have today for most lineman. I'd say the difference in speed on average is maybe a tenth of a second in the forty.

Olineman overall yes are bigger today but I wonder how much difference there is between a 290# guard in 1985 and a 305-315# guard today. Extra bulk makes is easier to anchor against Dlineman, maybe that's were the distinction really matters.

Anyway, if guys like Dumervil, KVB and Trent Cole are stars in today's game with less than ideal measurables, I don't think there's been this huge athletic or talent jump among NFL DEs and Olineman, generally speaking, since the late 80s.

The Olineman as a group probably are about 25# bigger on average nowadays, as are the interior Dlineman.

But out on the edge it's still about quickness, speed, lateral movement and hand usage, now or 20-25 years ago.

Let me first say that I absolutely hear where you are coming from. Some of the great football of our time came from that era, and I am in no way trying to minimize the greatness of the players you are talking about.

That being said, I think today's player has evolved way more than you might think. Your suggestion of a 290 pound guard in 1985 is a great example.

Yes, there were guards in 1985 that weighed as much as 290 pounds. Three, to be exact. Two of them were actually over 300 pounds, and there were also eight 300 pound tackles and a 300 pound center. I actually didn't know this, so I'm glad the topic sent me searching. I had always thought that the Fridge was credited with being the first modern day heavyweight.

The commonality of the 1985 offensive lineman, however, was a much smaller player. Guards averaged 269 lbs, whether on the right side or left. Centers were an average of 263lbs. Left tackles weighed in at 277, and right tackles were the biggest, at 281 pounds. There were actually quite a few guards and centers in the 250-260 range, and the St. Louis Cardinals had a starting LG that weighed in at a staggering 238 lbs! All in all, the linemen from 25 years ago gave up about 40 pounds a man to today's player.

What I found to be quite interesting in my study was that no division winner had a starting offensive lineman weighing 290 pounds. So at that time players were starting to get bigger, but had not yet evolved athletically. Most of the really big linemen at that time played for cellar dwelling teams.

I posted a similar study on the steroid thread. I think you should give it a read as it may surprise you.

stlouisfan37
07-13-2011, 06:31 PM
For what it's worth, pro football reference lists Bruce Matthews at 305. We may already have a winner!

TheFinisher
10-01-2011, 10:16 AM
I'm not sure who will be eligible first, but I bet Larry Allen gets in. He retired in '07.

LA becomes eligible in 2013, and I agree he'll be a lock.

Ngatachance92
10-01-2011, 10:29 AM
Haloti Ngata, as he will be inducted by the end of the season.