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JBCX
08-12-2011, 05:26 AM
Seattle selects Andrew Luck, quarterback, Stanford.


Yeah. That's right. I'm jumping to conclusions here, but after watching their *first* preseason game, there is simply NO way that Seattle wins more than 4 games *at most*.

The combination of Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst may just be the worst QB situation in the entire league. And their defense is not nearly good enough to bail out a terrible QB and they *will* get lit up regularly.

Seattle is tanking this season so that they can draft Luck next year. Book it.

Ness
08-12-2011, 05:31 AM
But you haven't seen the 49ers even play yet.

stephenson86
08-12-2011, 05:31 AM
I think they can win more 4 games or more, it's pre-season, what happens is hardly a barometer for the fortunes of a season.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 05:35 AM
I think they can win more 4 games or more, it's pre-season, what happens is hardly a barometer for the fortunes of a season.

No, but after watching Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst try to play a game of football, I've seen all I need to know about their season.

Seriously - you can't win more than 4 games with this duo. Seattle has, by far, the worst QB situation in the league. It's not even close. Teams with rookie QBs such as the Bengals, Jaguars, and Titans are better off than Seattle.

stephenson86
08-12-2011, 05:47 AM
Forgetting that what works in favour of these guys is having Sidney Rice, Mike Williams and Zach Miller to throw too helps, also the defence has good potential. The Redskins look to be much worse off that the Seahawks. Also their division luckily for them could blow.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2011, 05:47 AM
John Beck. Rex Grossman.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 05:51 AM
John Beck. Rex Grossman.

Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson make John Beck and Rex Grossman look like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 05:53 AM
Forgetting that what works in favour of these guys is having Sidney Rice, Mike Williams and Zach Miller to throw too helps, also the defence has good potential. The Redskins look to be much worse off that the Seahawks. Also their division luckily for them could blow.

The Redskins defense is going to be 10x as good as the Seahawks defense. Seattle has a garbage secondary and next to zero pass rushers. The Redskins actually have Pro Bowl type of pass rushers and much better safeties and cornerbacks.

And having great WRs means nothing if the QB can barely play at a UFL level, much less the NFL.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2011, 06:00 AM
Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson make John Beck and Rex Grossman look like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.
Grossman? The guy who prolly has put out more 0.00 QB Ratings than any QB before?
And John Beck? Dude i couldnt even describe JOhn beck if id try

JBCX
08-12-2011, 06:05 AM
Grossman? The guy who prolly has put out more 0.00 QB Ratings than any QB before?
And John Beck? Dude i couldnt even describe JOhn beck if id try

Grossman has a propensity for some bad starts, but he can actually play Pro Football in spurts.

Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson are UFL players stealing money from NFL teams. Hell, they might not even be worthy of the UFL.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2011, 06:10 AM
i trust them more with that offense than id trust the Redskins QB in theirs. The Redskins have no Running game, no big receivers. The only thing helping out the QB is Cooley.

Seahwaks have a fine running game, big receivers with sure hands, a better or at best equal Oline and 2 good TEs.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 06:13 AM
i trust them more with that offense than id trust the Redskins QB in theirs. The Redskins have no Running game, no big receivers. The only thing helping out the QB is Cooley.

Seahwaks have a fine running game, big receivers with sure hands, a better or at best equal Oline and 2 good TEs.

What running game do the Seahawks have? Marshawn Lynch?

The Redskins have a stable of backs that will see at least one 1500+ yard rusher emerge in Shanahan's zone blocking system.

All the receivers in the world don't matter if your QB can't play. And the Seattle O-Line is basically Russell "Made of Glass" Okung and a bunch of rookies.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2011, 06:18 AM
If your QB sucks, you depend on the WRs. the worse your QB the more you want good Receivers. QBs are all bad, but the receiving options for the seahawks are a lot better.

So youd take Tim hightower over Marshawn Lynch? This isnt Shanahans Denver Oline anymore. Ryan Torain is apparently made of Glass, and you dont want Tim Hightower as your main back, he doesnt even fit the mold of a shanahan RB.
And what is the Redskins OLine made off?

JBCX
08-12-2011, 06:26 AM
If your QB sucks, you depend on the WRs. the worse your QB the more you want good Receivers. QBs are all bad, but the receiving options for the seahawks are a lot better.

So youd take Tim hightower over Marshawn Lynch? This isnt Shanahans Denver Oline anymore. Ryan Torain is apparently made of Glass, and you dont want Tim Hightower as your main back, he doesnt even fit the mold of a shanahan RB.
And what is the Redskins OLine made off?

I'd take the competition of Tim Hightower, Ryan Torain, Evan Royster, and Roy Helu over Marshawn Lynch any day.

One of those is going to emerge in Shanahan's RB-friendly scheme. It's almost guaranteed. No coach has turned late-round draft picks into 1500 yard rushers with more regularity than Shanahan. If he has one strength, it's designing running plays and getting the most out of his running backs.

The Redskins O-Line has Trent Williams as the LT, who isn't as injury prone as Russell Okung and is almost as skilled, and it also has Jammal Brown, who is solid, as the RT. It also has newly signed Chris Chester, another solid player, as a new OG. They have a mix of a few other vets and rookies, but overall, due to the solidifaction of the LT/RT and the signing of Chester, it's a much more stable line than the Seahawks', which, again, is basically nothing more than a great, but injury-prone, LT and a bunch of rookies.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2011, 06:50 AM
To say that the competition of unknown RB and the potential of someone emerging cause the Coach did the same with another team years ago over Marshawn Lynch who was getting into the zone at the end of last year is a weird idea.

SolidGold
08-12-2011, 07:21 AM
Whitehurst is much better than Jackson. Jackson has been in that offense for 5 years and still looks like a scatterbrain.

Pat Sims 90
08-12-2011, 07:21 AM
Jacksonville looked a lot worse then Seattle yesterday. Seattle plays in the worst divison in Football they could easily get 4 wins.

Nalej
08-12-2011, 07:39 AM
ueR1TFFEt3g

JBCX
08-12-2011, 10:54 AM
Remember, kids: one nice game against a bad run defense doesn't negate a year's (or actually a career's) worth of bad play by Marshawn Lynch.

I guarantee that one of the Redskins RBs will be more productive (more yards, better ypa) than Lynch will be in 2011. Guarantee it.

vidae
08-12-2011, 11:02 AM
The Redskins have a stable of backs that will see at least one 1500+ yard rusher emerge in Shanahan's zone blocking system.


This is the 34857385th post I've seen like this. Why do people think that 1500 yards as a running back is such an easy feat? And why do people think Shanahan is still a good coach?

JBCX
08-12-2011, 11:39 AM
This is the 34857385th post I've seen like this. Why do people think that 1500 yards as a running back is such an easy feat? And why do people think Shanahan is still a good coach?

Mike Shanahan's leading rushers, 1998-2008, and the round in which they were drafted:

1998: Terrell Davis, 2008 yards, 6th round
1999: Olandis Gary, 1159 yards, 4th round
2000: Mike Anderson, 1487 yards, 6th round
2001: Terrell Davis, 701 yards, 6th round
2002: Clinton Portis, 1508 yards, 2nd round
2003: Clinton Portis, 1591 yards, 2nd round
2004: Reuben Droughns, 1240 yards, 3rd round
2005: Mike Anderson, 1014 yards, 6th round
2006: Tatum Bell, 1025 yards, 2nd round
2007: Selvin Young, 729 yards, UDFA
2008: This year there was a rotation with 4 RBs each amassing 240-350 yards a piece
2010: Ryan Torain, 742 yards, 5th round

Including the great Terrell Davis, Shanahan has turned seven RBs drafted no higher than in the 2nd round into 1000 yard rushers, and a handful of others have rushed for 700 or more yards in his system as well.

Say what you want to say about Shanahan as a person or as a head coach, but the man knows how to design running plays and knows how to plug in basically nearly any RB into his system and transform him into a 1000-yard rusher.

In my original statement, I should have said "1000+ yard rusher" instead of "1500+ yard rusher". Excuse that mistake, please. The point is that Shanahan's teams will always have a good running game, and they will form this running game with no-names picked late in the draft. One of those guys I listed above (Evan Royster, Ryan Torain, Roy Helu, Tim Hightower) will either be a 1000-yard rusher this year OR will rush for at 500-800 and one or more of the other backs will make up the rest. It's almost guaranteed in Shanahan's system.

Gay Ork Wang
08-12-2011, 12:05 PM
1000 yards now a days is nothing.

I sure was ******* afraid of the Running games consisting of Mike Anderson, Tantum Bell, Selvin Young.

D-Unit
08-12-2011, 12:06 PM
Charlie Whitehurst and Tarvaris Jackson make John Beck and Rex Grossman look like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.
HAHAHAHAAHA.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 12:07 PM
1000 yards now a days is nothing.


It's better than what the Seahawks will get out of their RBs. I don't see even an 800 yard rusher on that roster behind that shaky O-Line with scrubs at QB that will allow defenses to stack the box and ignore the passing game.

Which is the whole point of this argument - the Redskins actually will have a running game; the Seahawks will not.

Giantsfan1080
08-12-2011, 12:14 PM
Stating the obvious but you also have to take into account that the Seahawks play in a much easier division than the Redskins. Much much easier.

etk
08-12-2011, 12:38 PM
Stating the obvious but you also have to take into account that the Seahawks play in a much easier division than the Redskins. Much much easier.

Agreed, and I think they're the best team in that division. At the very least they have a better shot of making the playoffs than getting the #1 overall pick.

Sure, Whitehurst and Jackson were woeful last night - Portis looked like a beast, well he is one in fact - but I didn't see Mike Williams and Sidney Rice out there, and Jackson just started practicing with the team so his rust is excusable. I really like Seattle's offense outside of the QB position. Rice, Williams and Golden Tate make an ideal trio of WRs (2 big, 1 small playmaking slot). Seattle also has arguably the best and deepest group of receiving TEs in Miller and Carlson (obvious) but also Byrd and McCoy who looked good last night, especially Byrd. Their offensive line looked physical and athletic on their first drive, especially on the interior, but Okung's health is vital. It may take time for that line to become cohesive but they're young, talented and tough. I see that as an instant upgrade over last year and it could develop into the best OL in the league for this decade.

I'm not impressed with their talent level on defense though. They don't have any pass rushers to fear, their depth is poor across the board and their secondary will get exposed (Kelly Jennings is small and Chancellor is an in-the-box guy). If Brandon Browner is as good as advertised (CFL ftw) then they're in great shape with big corners that can jam and reroute receivers, giving their pass rush time to get going.

I forecast 8-9 wins. There will be some blowouts suffered against high-powered offenses but they should be able to beat most teams of similar caliber. I really wanna see Portis take the reins because I love his poise in the pocket, downfield strike throws and ability to keep his eyes downfield and make plays on the run.

tjsunstein
08-12-2011, 12:41 PM
Your reasoning is terrible. You're basing this off of one preseason game. Look at their division. St. Louis, Arizona, and San Fran. They should split that, winning at home. They also play the Browns, Bengals, and Redskins.

proshoota25
08-12-2011, 12:43 PM
yeah don't make judgments after 1 preseason game, especially if not all of the teams have played.

however, i am going to nominate Jacksonville. watching them last night, they simply do not have much talent. i am wondering if this was the result of new england's superior roster depth? i know its after one game, but one has to wonder if this team will get the number one pick pick due to the

1) lack of talent depth on the roster
2) lack of good coaching (del rio) should have been gone years ago
3) a rookie starter figures to start a good amount of games this year
4) a good division. indy should be at 9-12 wins, the texans should be right there as well, and Tennessee could be at 6-8

JBCX
08-12-2011, 12:46 PM
Anyone who thinks that Seattle is better than (or even anywhere NEAR the talent level of) either Arizona or St. Louis is absolutely insane.

Arizona and St. Louis have actual quarterbacks. Ever heard of this thing called a quarterback? Kinda need one to win games in the NFL.

And St. Louis actually has a defense that won't be shredded weekly this year, with real safeties and pass rushers and cool stuff like that.

I'll give you that Seattle *might* be better than San Francisco, but Colin Kaepernick and Alex Smith are far more promising than Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst, and Harbaugh is a much better offensive coach than Carroll and anyone on his staff.

There is no way that Seattle doesn't finish 3rd or 4th in their division.

Sloopy
08-12-2011, 12:51 PM
It's better than what the Seahawks will get out of their RBs. I don't see even an 800 yard rusher on that roster behind that shaky O-Line with scrubs at QB that will allow defenses to stack the box and ignore the passing game.

Which is the whole point of this argument - the Redskins actually will have a running game; the Seahawks will not.

If you stack the box on every play and ignore the passing game with those receivers, I don't care who the QB is, your gunna get torn up... So not really.

Also it has been widely known for a long time that running backs are a dime a dozen and almost anyone can become over a 1,000 yard rusher in any round:

Adrian Foster: UDFA-1,616 yards in 2010 lead the league in rushing

Ryan Grant: UDFA- 1,203 yards in 2008 and 1,253 yards in 2009

Shonn Greene: 3rd rounder- 766 yards in 2010

LaGarette Blount: UDFA- 1,007 yards in 2010

Frank Gore: 3rd rounder- 2006(1,695 yards) 2007(1,102 yards) 2008(1,036 yards) 2009(1,120 yards) 2010(853 yards)

Lesean McCoy: 2nd rounder- 2010 1,080 yards

The list goes on... saying you can take a late round running back and turn him into a successful runner is nothing special, in fact its quite common.

Also your making wild accusations over a single exhibition game, I know your starved for football but keep it in your pants.

Giantsfan1080
08-12-2011, 12:52 PM
Kevin Kolb an actual QB?? Now we know you're joking.

SolidGold
08-12-2011, 01:13 PM
The Seahawks big selling point about Tavaris Jackson was that he know's Bevell's system that is why they anointed him the starter. I do not think Jackson will last the season as the starting QB. He is to up and down, not consistent at all.

Ness
08-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Anyone who thinks that Seattle is better than (or even anywhere NEAR the talent level of) either Arizona or St. Louis is absolutely insane.

Arizona and St. Louis have actual quarterbacks. Ever heard of this thing called a quarterback? Kinda need one to win games in the NFL.

And St. Louis actually has a defense that won't be shredded weekly this year, with real safeties and pass rushers and cool stuff like that.

I'll give you that Seattle *might* be better than San Francisco, but Colin Kaepernick and Alex Smith are far more promising than Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst, and Harbaugh is a much better offensive coach than Carroll and anyone on his staff.

There is no way that Seattle doesn't finish 3rd or 4th in their division.
St.Louis and Seattle aren't that much better than Arizona. Seattle won the division last year. And I wouldn't crown Kolb or Bradford. Both have a long way to go before establishing themselves as legitimate starters.

Raiderz4Life
08-12-2011, 01:19 PM
I'm going to disagree with Ness.

St. Louis > Seattle.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 02:25 PM
St.Louis and Seattle aren't that much better than Arizona. Seattle won the division last year. And I wouldn't crown Kolb or Bradford. Both have a long way to go before establishing themselves as legitimate starters.

Kolb and Bradford have shown NFL potential as rookies. Bradford is coming off a great rookie season and will only improve. Kolb is still unproven but has shown flashes of skill and is entering his first true full season in the NFL as a starter.

Tarvaris Jackson has shown us over the years in Minnesota that he is fit for the NFL only as a clipboard holder. Whitehurst has less of a track record to damn him as a QB, but he has shown next to nothing in his few starts last year.

Basically speaking, the difference between a team that *has* a QB and one that doesn't have an NFL-caliber QB is light years. What would the Saints be without Drew Brees and what would the Panthers be with a decent QB? Their roles would be reversed. What would the Colts be without Peyton Manning? What happened to the Cardinals after losing Kurt Warner? Etc. etc.

Seattle won the division by default last year because the Rams were struggling through Bradford's rookie growing pains, the 49ers didn't have eve a decent coach, and the Cardinals literally had no NFL-caliber QBs on their roster. The Cardinals at least have an average NFL QB now, and Bradford is making the jump from rookie season to sophomore season and will vastly improve. There is simply no way that the Seahawks can finish any better than 3rd in this division this year. The gap between them and the Rams / Cardinals is vast now due to the QB situation primarily, but also a lack of talent.

If the Seahawks win their division in 2011, I will personally Paypal everyone who disagrees with me in this thread $100. I'd also be willing to bet that there is a double-digit winner in this division next year, and it won't be the Seahawks.

JBCX
08-12-2011, 02:29 PM
If you stack the box on every play and ignore the passing game with those receivers, I don't care who the QB is, your gunna get torn up... So not really.


What I mean is that you can bring a safety into the box on every play and stop the run more efficiently, and then force the QB to make throws against man coverage. Elite quarterbacks will usually tear up man coverage, but if you have a scrub like Tarvaris Jackson or Charlie Whitehurst, he will fail and conversely, because of the safety in the box, the running game will stall as well.

This is precisely what teams did to the Panthers last year with Jimmy Clausen as QB. Because they knew Clausen was a scrub who could barely complete anything against even average man coverage, teams played a safety in the box on nearly every snap and despite having very good RBs, the Panthers ground game was mediocre.

TheRubberDuck45
08-12-2011, 02:31 PM
I would say Seattle. Jacksonville held out David Garrard, the actual starter, Blaine Gabbert is actually 3rd string. Maybe 2nd, either way, he's learning the offense before he starts, barring injury. MoJo was held out. Marcedes Lewis, Eben Britton, and that's just on offense.

descendency
08-12-2011, 02:57 PM
I would say Seattle. Jacksonville held out David Garrard, the actual starter, Blaine Gabbert is actually 3rd string. Maybe 2nd, either way, he's learning the offense before he starts, barring injury. MoJo was held out. Marcedes Lewis, Eben Britton, and that's just on offense.

Let me list the starters NE actually played:
Brandon Meriweather
Patrick Chung
Aaron Hernandez (maybe)
Leigh Bodden played a few downs covering the slot
Nate Solder (maybe)

nepg
08-12-2011, 03:41 PM
Jackson won't keep that job. If he does, it will be because he's turned it around completely. If Whitehurst is the QB, they're right in the thick of things and should be the favorite to repeat as division champs. Worst case with Whitehurst is being middle of the first round when the draft rolls along.

Obviously, there's something seriously wrong with you when it comes to the Seahawks. You're stuck on them and you're obviously not seeing the whole picture or seeing what other bad teams are out there.

To say Seattle is worse than Buffalo, Carolina, Washington, and Miami is just flat-out silly.

Raiderz4Life
08-12-2011, 04:00 PM
I still think St. Louis will win it. Their QB >>>> every other NFC West QB imo. Their defence should be solid as well.

AntoinCD
08-12-2011, 04:59 PM
What running game do the Seahawks have? Marshawn Lynch?

The Redskins have a stable of backs that will see at least one 1500+ yard rusher emerge in Shanahan's zone blocking system.

All the receivers in the world don't matter if your QB can't play. And the Seattle O-Line is basically Russell "Made of Glass" Okung and a bunch of rookies.

What???? You're telling me that a Redskins RB will inevitably come close to leading the league in yards with over 1500??? I predict there may be one or two RBs who eclipse this yardage this year and it sure as hell aint Tim Hightower or Roy Helu Jr or anyone else they got on the roster.

And I'd rather have Lynch behind Okung, Gallery(who is a very good OG), Unger, Moffitt and Carpenter than any Redskins running back behind their line. Sure Shanahan's system helps but the Redskins offensive line is pretty bad

HawkEye30
08-12-2011, 05:36 PM
Anyone who thinks that Seattle is better than (or even anywhere NEAR the talent level of) either Arizona or St. Louis is absolutely insane.

Arizona and St. Louis have actual quarterbacks. Ever heard of this thing called a quarterback? Kinda need one to win games in the NFL.

And St. Louis actually has a defense that won't be shredded weekly this year, with real safeties and pass rushers and cool stuff like that.

I'll give you that Seattle *might* be better than San Francisco, but Colin Kaepernick and Alex Smith are far more promising than Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst, and Harbaugh is a much better offensive coach than Carroll and anyone on his staff.

There is no way that Seattle doesn't finish 3rd or 4th in their division.

I'm sorry but your reasoning is absolutely ******* terrible. I'm not gonna say that were the best team in the division but we are not the worst. Have you ever actually seen Alex Smith play football?!

CC.SD
08-12-2011, 06:53 PM
St. Louis officially overrated. The near-playoff run was nice against a 4th place schedule. They will probably still take the division if Kolb is a joke which no one can really rule out just yet. If Kolb has anything, the talent level of Fitzgerald alone probably puts the Cards in the driver's seat. This is one man's opinion.

Dam8610
08-12-2011, 07:16 PM
Just here to disagree with JBCX, so that if he's wrong, I get $100. I don't turn down risk-free potential earnings.

Raiderz4Life
08-12-2011, 07:49 PM
St. Louis officially overrated. The near-playoff run was nice against a 4th place schedule. They will probably still take the division if Kolb is a joke which no one can really rule out just yet. If Kolb has anything, the talent level of Fitzgerald alone probably puts the Cards in the driver's seat. This is one man's opinion.

They might be but they should be the favorites in the NFC West. they have the best RB Steven Jackson, the best or most proven QB Sam Bradford, and I would say the better defence as well.

Unbiased
08-12-2011, 08:18 PM
Jacksonville looked a lot worse then Seattle yesterday. Seattle plays in the worst divison in Football they could easily get 4 wins.

Without Garrard, Jones-Drew, and Lewis. Seattle had Jackson, Lynch, and Miller.

keylime_5
08-12-2011, 08:46 PM
I like San Fran in the West. They have a good coach now and were decent on defense last year (added some talent to their secondary this year finally), and with Braylon Edwards, Michael Crabtree, and Vernon Davis to throw to Alex Smith has no excuse not to be decent this year. Harbaugh is a good QB coach and Smith did show flashes last season, at least against divisional opponents he did.