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Splat
08-12-2011, 06:26 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/12/cris-carter-calvin-johnson-is-great-in-video-games-not-in-real-football/

Eight-time Pro Bowl receiver Cris Carter was asked on ESPN Radio this morning to list the elite wide receivers in the NFL. Lions receiver Calvin Johnson (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4153/calvin-johnson) did not make his list.

Instead, Carter said, the top receivers in football are Andre Johnson (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1575/andre-johnson), Larry Fitzgerald (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1661/larry-fitzgerald), Greg Jennings (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3652/greg-jennings), Reggie Wayne (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1496/reggie-wayne), DeSean Jackson (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4659/desean-jackson) and Roddy White (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3161/roddy-white).

“Calvin Johnson, he’s very, very good at Madden and Tecmo Bowl or whatever they’re playing now (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/29806/cris-carters-takedown-of-calvin-johnson),” Carter said. “But on film, when I watch film, and I break down the film, he’s not to the point of these guys yet.”

“I made eight Pro Bowls,” Carter said. “I made it with five different quarterbacks. They weren’t always great. So I don’t want to hear the excuse that I’m not playing with a great quarterback.”

bigbluedefense
08-12-2011, 06:29 PM
He's right on the money.

Calvin can be great. But he's not great yet. Everyone loves him bc this is a draft website and we fall in love with prospects.

But in the NFL, he's not top 5 yet. He runs rounded routes, he should be much more dominant in the intermediate routes, he should just be better than he is.

I agree, all 5 of those guys listed are better than Johnson right now.


He can be better in the future, but right now, he's dead on.

CC.SD
08-12-2011, 06:40 PM
As much as this hurts my heart it's true. Absolutely vicious that it's coming from Cris Carter, possibly THE most qualified person to take CJ's excuse (QBs) and **** on it.

Raiderz4Life
08-12-2011, 06:42 PM
I just read this and my first reaction was...**** you Carter you just hating....but...nohe's pretty much right haha

Edit: I will agree with Brodeur. Reggie Wayme is not better than Megatron.

Brodeur
08-12-2011, 06:44 PM
Calvin Johnson is better than Reggie Wayne, **** that (and the midget too, but that's just obvious).

cvv84
08-12-2011, 07:21 PM
Its not the QBs he plays with, its his health. If he can stay healthy he's a beast. He's always knicked up and playing injured.

ElectricEye
08-12-2011, 07:41 PM
I would take Megatron over Reggie Wayne and Greg Jennings everything else equal.

I don't think he's a great player yet, but I really don't get the ire he draws at this point. Andre Johnson's first four seasons in Houston weren't anything special either and as far as situations starting out go, those two are the most comparable. He's coming off of a very productive season with four different quarterbacks throwing to him on an offense without a consistent running game. I think the way people view him has more to do with the ability to production ratio he's had so far, which admittedly isn't ideal. He's still a very, very effective receiver at this point and a guy I would take on my team in a heart beat. Top five? Probably not, but you can't honestly tell me that you would be surprised if he reached that point within the next few years.

Cris Carter gets on my nerves too. The smug "I DID IT WITH 10 BILLION QB's". You also didn't have a thousand yard season until you were nearly 30. CJ has two of those with 10+ TD's at 25 already. Not that it actually matters what CJ has done relative to Cris Carter...which he should have realized before bringing it up.

Don Vito
08-12-2011, 07:48 PM
Yeah I can't stand anything about Cris Carter.

Ness
08-12-2011, 08:20 PM
I completely disagree. If Johnson was on New England or Indianapolis would we even be having this discussion? Johnson is just as good as all of those guys that were listed.

FUNBUNCHER
08-12-2011, 08:34 PM
Except for Roddy WHite and Fitzgerald, I would take Megatron over ever WR on that list.

CJ may not be polished as the others, but I'd still build my passing offense around the guy and let the chips fall where they may.

Splat
08-12-2011, 08:40 PM
Except for Roddy WHite and Fitzgerald, I would take Megatron over ever WR on that list.

Andre Johnson?

FUNBUNCHER
08-12-2011, 08:43 PM
Okay, and maybe Andre Johnson.

Injuries and offensive instability have held CJ back IMO, not ability.

I just like the dude and if I were his QB or OC I would throw the guy the football nearly 20 times a game.

yo123
08-12-2011, 08:47 PM
People have gotten too caught up in the fact that he's not polished and doesn't run perfect routes. Who cares? That's what you call overthinking. He's still producing, and if Stafford develops his numbers are going to be ridiculous.

Saints-Tigers
08-12-2011, 09:51 PM
Calvin has two seasons better than Desean Jackson's best year, with vastly inferior QB play.

Those same two are at least comparable (IMO, better) than Jennings best seasons, and again, far inferior QB play.

Personally, watching him, I think he's better than the rest of the bunch, maybe not Fitzgerald, and I think some guys get overrated because they are force fed the ball so much underneath.

soybean
08-12-2011, 10:43 PM
HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS THREAD THAT GOT LOCKED BECAUSE OF HOW "RIDICULOUS" THE IDEA WAS

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25363

soybean
08-12-2011, 10:45 PM
People always blame poor qb play for his lack of production or elite status, if you actually watch the games you'll notice in more than a handful of games, he disappears and is basically a non factor.

What happens if the Lions finish +.500 and Calvin Johnson continues to produce good but not elite level numbers and stafford is healthy the whole year?

The same qb excuse will be out the window just like lebron's supporting cast excuse.

J-Mike88
08-12-2011, 10:53 PM
HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS THREAD THAT GOT LOCKED BECAUSE OF HOW "RIDICULOUS" THE IDEA WAS

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25363
100-4 in the voting? Blowout city baby.
Look, Calvin has been a beast and he's killed my team, Charles Woodson.

Hasn't he found the end zone a lot more than Andre Johnson has?
And look how bad Fitzgerald's numbers dropped after he lost Warner.
Megatron has had like 4 QBs the past 2 seasons.... still seems to find the end zone more than Andre, DeSean, or Fitzgerald now.

I'd take Calvin before any WR if drafting a team today.

yo123
08-12-2011, 11:01 PM
The Calvin bashing honestly makes no sense to me. Compare Fitzerald's numbers with his the last three years and tell me that they're drastically different. Yet Fitzgerald is somehow clearly in the top two receivers in the league and Calvin isn't in the top 5.

BigBanger
08-12-2011, 11:30 PM
The Calvin bashing honestly makes no sense to me. Compare Fitzerald's numbers with his the last three years and tell me that their drastically different. Yet Fitzgerald is somehow clearly in the top two receivers in the league and Calvin isn't in the top 5.
Well, Fitzgerald is better than Calvin and is much more consistent. Fitzgerald is also the best WR in the NFL. You really can't compare any current WR to Fitzgerald until they even approach what he did in the postseason, and, quite frankly, there is no WR in the NFL that has come close to doing what Fitzgerald has done in the playoffs / Super Bowl. Reggie Wayne plays like a complete ***** in the postseason. He benefits from playing with one of the greatest QBs in the NFL. He has no merit to even be in this discussion.

Cris Carter was hardly ever the best player at his position at any given time in his career, so the number of Pro Bowls he made are redundant. Calvin is a big, physical freak that is still raw and learning the position. And for a guy that's winning on pure talent and playing on a ****** team... he's not so bad. Is he a little overrated? Maybe. But he's Megatron and he's one of a kind with more talent than anyone in the league. People tend to drool over that.

XxXdragonXxX
08-12-2011, 11:39 PM
HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS THREAD THAT GOT LOCKED BECAUSE OF HOW "RIDICULOUS" THE IDEA WAS

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25363

I voted for D-Drop.

Raiderz4Life
08-12-2011, 11:42 PM
You really can't compare any current WR to Fitzgerald until they even approach what he did in the postseason, and, quite frankly, there is no WR in the NFL that has come close to doing what Fitzgerald has done in the playoffs / Super Bowl.

Well you're right...based on the fact that Andre Johnson and Megatron haven't even been in the playoffs. Til they get we'll never know. It also helped Fitz that Kurt was playing at MVP status.

TitanHope
08-12-2011, 11:51 PM
Megatron is absolutely in the same tier as Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, and DeSean Jackson.

I will say that I think Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are in the first tier by themselves. Then Roddy White leads the second tier with many of the WR's stated, including Megatron.

Complex
08-13-2011, 12:18 AM
I would take Calvin over everyone of them besides Fitz and maybe Roddy.

Raiderz4Life
08-13-2011, 12:37 AM
I would probably only take Fitz and AJ over Calvin...and AJ just barely. Calvin's potential is unreal, he's already a solid WR Roddy is pretty maxed out imo but Calvin has yet to reach potential.

yo123
08-13-2011, 12:43 AM
I'd probably go

1. AJ
2. Fitz
3. Calvin
4. Jennings
5. White

BRAVEHEART
08-13-2011, 12:46 AM
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/VaderPrime1/MegatronFacepalm2.jpg

Notredameleo
08-13-2011, 01:05 AM
The stats dont lie Cris.

Complex
08-13-2011, 01:08 AM
I think AJ is overrated tbh. He does not catch enough TDs to be considered the best or 2nd best WR.

OSUGiants17
08-13-2011, 01:23 AM
Greg Jennings maybe, Reggie Wayne a few years ago sure but not now, the one-dimensional(yet still extremely productive and talented) D-Jax hell no! CJ is better than those guys. Don't get me wrong they're good and can be considered elite, but if theyre considered "elite" so is Megatron.

prock
08-13-2011, 03:17 AM
I'd probably go

1. AJ
2. Fitz
3. Calvin
4. Jennings
5. White

I couldn't agree more with this list more. Why is everyone hopping off his dick?

And I Loled at the ******** people in that locked thread

Saints-Tigers
08-13-2011, 06:56 AM
I'd take him tops, but I honestly can't see an argument for any other guys over him outside of Johnson and Fitzy.

descendency
08-13-2011, 07:37 AM
HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS THREAD THAT GOT LOCKED BECAUSE OF HOW "RIDICULOUS" THE IDEA WAS

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25363

I'd still take the 6'5", 230 LB freak over him.

Brothgar
08-13-2011, 08:52 AM
HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT THIS THREAD THAT GOT LOCKED BECAUSE OF HOW "RIDICULOUS" THE IDEA WAS

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25363

So Chris Carter makes that thread legit?

bigbluedefense
08-13-2011, 09:39 AM
It's not about who you would take moving forward.

You guys are missing the point. He listed his top 5 WRs in the game RIGHT NOW, and truth be told, I can't really argue with the list. I think right now, it's fair to make a case for all 5 of those guys over Johnson.

Moving forward, I'd probably take Johnson over any WR in the league, maybe I'd take Fitz over him but that's it.

And I do think Johnson has a huge year this year and establishes himself in the top 5. But right now, no, he's not. Those 5 guys on his list are more proven, and I can't argue with that.

Raiderz4Life
08-13-2011, 09:54 AM
It's not about who you would take moving forward.

You guys are missing the point. He listed his top 5 WRs in the game RIGHT NOW, and truth be told, I can't really argue with the list. I think right now, it's fair to make a case for all 5 of those guys over Johnson.

Moving forward, I'd probably take Johnson over any WR in the league, maybe I'd take Fitz over him but that's it.

And I do think Johnson has a huge year this year and establishes himself in the top 5. But right now, no, he's not. Those 5 guys on his list are more proven, and I can't argue with that.

Even now....i'll take calvin over reggie wayne and greg jennings for sure

jrdrylie
08-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Anyone who thinks DeSean Jackson is anywhere near the top-ten receivers has no credibility. He is one of the most explosive players in the league, but as a receiver he is a fragile one-trick pony.

ElectricEye
08-13-2011, 10:17 AM
Yeah, I'll still take Calvin over a lot of those guys. It's not like he's completely ******** the bed on the field. I would say the quarterback thing is a bad excuse otherwise...but he's putting up comparable numbers and passing the eyeball test on top of that.

PoopSandwich
08-13-2011, 10:20 AM
Carter also had randy moss opposite of him that must have been nice.

PoopSandwich
08-13-2011, 10:21 AM
I think AJ is overrated tbh. He does not catch enough TDs to be considered the best or 2nd best WR.

If we get into this ******* argument again on this board im gonna throw my computer out the window.

bigbluedefense
08-13-2011, 10:29 AM
DJax is not a 1 trick poney....

Nalej
08-13-2011, 10:29 AM
Agreed, njx. The thread was locked due to your inability to see the greatness that is The Gladiator.

Also... Megatron >>>> your mom.
Statements like this are the reason Cris Carter isn't in the HOF yet.
Every time the voters are leaning torwards it... he goes off and says something dumb

jrdrylie
08-13-2011, 10:36 AM
I think AJ is overrated tbh. He does not catch enough TDs to be considered the best or 2nd best WR.

1). Andre Johnson has 25 TD over the past three seasons, good enough for 7th most of NFL receivers over that time. That is only 6 less (2 per season) than the leader.

2). He is extremely consistent. Is he going to lead the league in TDs. Probably not. But he is a lock for 1300 yards and 8 TDs. I'd rather have that than a guy like Dwayne Bowe or Greg Jennings, who may catch 15, or may catch 5.

PoopSandwich
08-13-2011, 11:03 AM
1). Andre Johnson has 25 TD over the past three seasons, good enough for 7th most of NFL receivers over that time. That is only 6 less (2 per season) than the leader.

2). He is extremely consistent. Is he going to lead the league in TDs. Probably not. But he is a lock for 1300 yards and 8 TDs. I'd rather have that than a guy like Dwayne Bowe or Greg Jennings, who may catch 15, or may catch 5.

Which is why it's beyond dumb that people even try to argue this.

Players that had as much/more td receptions than Andre Johnson last year..

Bowe, Jennings, Megatron, Lloyd, Nicks, Mike Williams, Gates, Gronkowski, STEVIE JOHNSON, Marcedes Lewis, Maclin, Wallace, White, Britt, Manningham, Owens, Witten, Collie.

How many of them are even on the same level as Andre??? Maybe Gates and (over his career) Owens?

Lets look at receiving yards.

Lloyd, White, Wayne, Jennings Wallace.

There are two people in that list that I would say aren't on the same level as Andre just because they haven't had amazing years on a regular basis and that is Lloyd and Wallace...

Greg Jennings Roddy White and Reggie Wayne are all top tier receivers in this league.

Td receptions is such a stupid stat... You could have games like Bettis had a few years back where he had 3 tds on like 1 yard rushing, other people set it up to get to the red zone and Bettis punches it in for a td a few times and gets the stats.

Andre is getting doubled and tripled in the red zone every time, and still gets a decent amount of tds... Not to mention he is a complete game changer at wide receiver and it's completely obvious if you actually watch football.

Splat
08-13-2011, 11:39 AM
Roddy White is such a stud. I have him 3rd after Fitz and AJ.

Brodeur
08-13-2011, 12:12 PM
It's not about who you would take moving forward.

You guys are missing the point. He listed his top 5 WRs in the game RIGHT NOW, and truth be told, I can't really argue with the list. I think right now, it's fair to make a case for all 5 of those guys over Johnson.

Moving forward, I'd probably take Johnson over any WR in the league, maybe I'd take Fitz over him but that's it.

And I do think Johnson has a huge year this year and establishes himself in the top 5. But right now, no, he's not. Those 5 guys on his list are more proven, and I can't argue with that.

How are Reggie Wayne and DeSean Jackson better than Calvin right now? Go ahead and make a case for that. Reggie Wayne was garbage last year, and if he didn't have Peyton as his QB and their two best pass catchers stayed healthy last year (Clark and Collie), people would actually realize that. DeSean on the otherhand is far more one dimensional than Calvin.

Ness
08-13-2011, 12:17 PM
Td receptions is such a stupid stat... You could have games like Bettis had a few years back where he had 3 tds on like 1 yard rushing, other people set it up to get to the red zone and Bettis punches it in for a td a few times and gets the stats.

Andre is getting doubled and tripled in the red zone every time, and still gets a decent amount of tds... Not to mention he is a complete game changer at wide receiver and it's completely obvious if you actually watch football.

It is different for a receiver though and I'd say a lot harder. We've seen receivers in the past post not only big yardage numbers, but huge touchdown numbers to along with those massive yards. Andre hasn't done that in the touchdown department yet.

soybean
08-13-2011, 12:29 PM
So Chris Carter makes that thread legit?

No... but is the argument ridiculous?

soybean
08-13-2011, 12:31 PM
that's a cute interpretation. it's funny that you think you know why it was closed, in spite of no posts suggesting that.

that said, were you planning on making an argument, or just trying to throw out a 'gotcha' because a tv analyst (notorious for being extremely reliable in their analyses) happened to agree with you?

cmon... 100 to 4... really?

BigBanger
08-13-2011, 12:55 PM
Here is how I would rank the top 7 WRs of the last three years that are in question. I've also included their stats for the last three years combined. These are, basically, the top 7 WRs over the last three years.


1. Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona Cardinals

Regular Season

48 Games
283 Receptions
3,660 Receiving Yards
31 TDs
12.9 YPC
76.2 Receiving Yards Per Game

Post Season

6 Games
42 Receptions
705 Receiving Yards
9 TDs
16.7 YPC
117.5 Receiving Yards Per Game (1 Super Bowl Loss)




2. Andre Johnson, Houston Texans

Regular Season

45 Games
302 Receptions
4,360 yards
25 TDs
14.4 YPC
96.8 Receiving Yards Per Game

No Playoff Appearances




3. Calvin Johnson, Detroit Lions

Regular Season

45 Games
222 Receptions
3,435 Receiving Yards
29 TDs
15.4 YPC
76.3 Receiving Yards Per Game

No Playoff Appearances




4. Greg Jennings, Green Bay Packers

Regular Season

48 Games
224 Receptions
3,670 Receiving Yards
16.3 YPC
25 TDs
76.4 Receiving Yards Per Game (1 Super Bowl Win)

Post Season

5 Games
29 Receptions
433 Receiving Yards
14.9 YPC
3 TDs
86.6 Receiving Yards Per Game




5. Roddy White, Atlanta Falcons

Regular Season

48 Games
288 Receptions
3,924 Receiving Yards
28 TDs
13.6 YPC
81.7 Receiving Yards Per Game

Post Season

2 Games
17 Receptions
141 Receiving Yards
1 TD
8.2 YPC
70.5 Receiving Yards Per Game




6. DeSean Jackson, Philadelphia Eagles

Regular Season

45 Games
171 Receptions
3,124 Receiving Yards
17 TDs
18.3 YPC
69.4 Receiving Yards Per Game

Post Season

5 Games `
16 Receptions
268 Receiving Yards
16.7 YPC
2 TDs
53.6 Receiving Yards Per Game




7. Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis Colts

Regular Season

48 Games
293 Receptions
3,764 Receiving Yards
22 TDs
12.8 YPC
78.4 Receiving Yards Per Game

Post Season

5 Games
21 Receptions
294 Receiving Yards
2 TD
14 YPC
58.8 Receiving Yards Per Game (1 Super Bowl Loss)


I think my top 3 players are elite (Fitzgerald, Johnson and Megatron) with Jennings, White and Jackson in the second tier. I think Miles Austin and Vincent Jackson are second tier players as well, but they don't have the starts over the last three years to compare. Guys like Dez Bryant, Kenny Britt and Hakeem Nicks have the most potential to break into the top two tiers if they care enough to do so. Reggie Wayne isn't even a top 10 WR on a yearly basis, but he is consistent and has more production than most other WRs over the last three years.

tjsunstein
08-13-2011, 01:00 PM
People are forgetting about Brandon Marshall.

Complex
08-13-2011, 01:01 PM
Which is why it's beyond dumb that people even try to argue this.

Players that had as much/more td receptions than Andre Johnson last year..

Bowe, Jennings, Megatron, Lloyd, Nicks, Mike Williams, Gates, Gronkowski, STEVIE JOHNSON, Marcedes Lewis, Maclin, Wallace, White, Britt, Manningham, Owens, Witten, Collie.

How many of them are even on the same level as Andre??? Maybe Gates and (over his career) Owens?

Lets look at receiving yards.

Lloyd, White, Wayne, Jennings Wallace.

There are two people in that list that I would say aren't on the same level as Andre just because they haven't had amazing years on a regular basis and that is Lloyd and Wallace...

Greg Jennings Roddy White and Reggie Wayne are all top tier receivers in this league.

Td receptions is such a stupid stat... You could have games like Bettis had a few years back where he had 3 tds on like 1 yard rushing, other people set it up to get to the red zone and Bettis punches it in for a td a few times and gets the stats.

Andre is getting doubled and tripled in the red zone every time, and still gets a decent amount of tds... Not to mention he is a complete game changer at wide receiver and it's completely obvious if you actually watch football.

How many WR's have done what Bettis did and score half their TDs from the 1 yard line? You act like AJ is the only WR in the NFL that is doubled and tripled team in the endzone. Every great WR has scored double digit TDs while being the number 1 WR.Jerry Rice, Randy Moss,Irvin, Carter, and not so great yet like Roddy and Calvin. Its not like AJ is 5'7 playing WR, the man is 6'2 or 6'3 and don't blame his QB for low number of TDs because I am pretty sure 5'9 Steve Smith scored double digit TDs while catching balls from Jake Delhomme

Hurricanes25
08-13-2011, 01:07 PM
You also have to remember that Andre has never a had a legit #2 WR playing across from him. When the Texans get into the redzone, all of the defensive focus is on Andre. Fitzgerald has had Boldin, Moss had Carter and so on.

Complex
08-13-2011, 01:16 PM
You also have to remember that Andre has never a had a legit #2 WR playing across from him. When the Texans get into the redzone, all of the defensive focus is on Andre. Fitzgerald has had Boldin, Moss had Carter and so on.

I am pretty sure Moss did it without Carter. Tony Gonzalez did it without a legit #1 or 2 at WR,so did Steve Smith,Roddy White,Gates, and so on.

BigBanger
08-13-2011, 01:20 PM
You also have to remember that Andre has never a had a legit #2 WR playing across from him. When the Texans get into the redzone, all of the defensive focus is on Andre. Fitzgerald has had Boldin, Moss had Carter and so on.
And you just have to remember that he doesn't score, and really never has.

Outside of the Eagles, Colts and Chargers, there aren't many offenses that are better and more conducive for productivity from the WR position than Houston. And that's been the case for the last three years. The Houston Texans offense isn't the issue.

Over the last three years, Houston Texans NFL ranks in total offense:

2010 - 3rd
2009 - 4th
2008 - 3rd

V.I.P
08-13-2011, 01:20 PM
People are forgetting about Brandon Marshall.

He is still underrated.

Ness
08-13-2011, 01:22 PM
You also have to remember that Andre has never a had a legit #2 WR playing across from him. When the Texans get into the redzone, all of the defensive focus is on Andre. Fitzgerald has had Boldin, Moss had Carter and so on.

Ehhh...we've seen receivers without an established number two wide receiver still dominate in the red zone in terms of touchdowns.

BigBanger
08-13-2011, 01:25 PM
mike shanahan would like you to know that total offense has absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with red zone success, and would like to ask you quit abusing statistics.
Well, he's asking too much.

You can tell him to shut up since he doesn't have a point. You also don't have to be in the redzone to score TDs. Tell Shanny to figure out what kind of conversation is going on here, then he can enter the debate.

Hurricanes25
08-13-2011, 01:25 PM
Ehhh...we've seen receivers without an established number two wide receiver still dominate in the red zone in terms of touchdowns.

Yeah I know it wasn't the best arguement but it surely hasn't helped Andre. Houston has never really had a running game either.

mellojello
08-13-2011, 01:27 PM
“I made eight Pro Bowls,” Carter said. “I made it with five different quarterbacks. They weren’t always great. So I don’t want to hear the excuse that I’m not playing with a great quarterback.”

This is a great point actually...the QB generally gets most of the credit, but the elite WR's make the QB look better than they are and do their thing regardless of who's back there.

Is Greg Jennings really elite? Rodgers looks like he's getting the ball to whoever he wants in that offense. Just asking since I have never broke down Jennings' game like that.

I can't wait for the day that TV has like 6 or more differnt view options for an NFL game. It's very difficult to evaluate the effectiveness of players with the angles we get on tv.

Splat
08-13-2011, 01:29 PM
Ehhh...we've seen receivers without an established number two wide receiver still dominate in the red zone in terms of touchdowns.

Dwayne Bowe lead the NFL with 15 TD's with crap around him.

soybean
08-13-2011, 01:32 PM
“I made eight Pro Bowls,” Carter said. “I made it with five different quarterbacks. They weren’t always great. So I don’t want to hear the excuse that I’m not playing with a great quarterback.”

This is a great point actually...the QB generally gets most of the credit, but the elite WR's make the QB look better than they are and do their thing regardless of who's back there.

Is Greg Jennings really elite? Rodgers looks like he's getting the ball to whoever he wants in that offense. Just asking since I have never broke down Jennings' game like that.

I can't wait for the day that TV has like 6 or more differnt view options for an NFL game. It's very difficult to evaluate the effectiveness of players with the angles we get on tv.

Desean was burnin corners and safeties with Mcnabb, Kolb & Vick.

BigBanger
08-13-2011, 01:35 PM
People are forgetting about Brandon Marshall.

Nobody remembers losers. And that's what he is, and always will be.

BuckNaked
08-13-2011, 01:36 PM
I am pretty sure Moss did it without Carter. Tony Gonzalez did it without a legit #1 or 2 at WR,so did Steve Smith,Roddy White,Gates, and so on.

Smith had Muhsin Muhammad in his prime and Gates has had Vincent Jackson.

Hurricanes25
08-13-2011, 01:37 PM
People are forgetting about Brandon Marshall.

He's another guy who has never really scored many TD's. I think the no #2 WR arguement could be applied to him as well.

Complex
08-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Smith had Muhsin Muhammad in his prime and Gates has had Vincent Jackson.

Steve Smith best season was without Muhsin and Gates scored double digit TDs before the Chargers drafted Jackson.

Ness
08-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Yeah I know it wasn't the best arguement but it surely hasn't helped Andre. Houston has never really had a running game either.

Doesn't Houston have Kevin Walter? He's had decent numbers for a #2 receiver the last few seasons. Not to mention the Texans have other options on offense like Daniels and Foster that can be used in the red zone too.

Hurricanes25
08-13-2011, 01:49 PM
Doesn't Houston have Kevin Walter? He's had decent numbers for a #2 receiver the last few seasons. Not to mention the Texans have other options on offense like Daniels and Foster that can be used in the red zone too.

Daniels is solid but he's been hurt the last few years. Walter doesn't scare anybody and I think he's a guy who has benefited from playing on the other side of Andre. And yes they do have Arian Foster. Last year was pretty much the first time a Houston RB scared the opposing defense.

General Zod
08-13-2011, 01:58 PM
I hate ranking players. Cant we just say they all are great for there own reasons and move on?

Brodeur
08-13-2011, 02:04 PM
Desean was burnin corners and safeties with Mcnabb, Kolb & Vick.

DeSean had 10 catches for 107 yards and 1 TD in the games that Kolb either started or threw the majority of passes in last year (granted that was 4 games not 6, but that's still horrible).

Saints-Tigers
08-13-2011, 02:53 PM
I remember I used to get blasted on here for saying Andre doesn't get in the endzone enough to be "by far the best receiver" and stuck my neck out the last two seasons saying he wouldn't get double digit TDs.

Apology accepted!!! :/

Seriously though, if it were a 1 to 2 year sample, I wouldn't make it such a point, but the guy is 30 and has been playing 2003.

The QB and number 2 receiver argument is WEAK, considering we're talking about Calvin Johnson.

Brandon Marshall is essentially Andre Johnson too me, but a weaker deep threat. Even he cracked 10 though.

soybean
08-13-2011, 02:56 PM
DeSean had 10 catches for 107 yards and 1 TD in the games that Kolb either started or threw the majority of passes in last year (granted that was 4 games not 6, but that's still horrible).

are you only looking at last season?

Brodeur
08-13-2011, 03:03 PM
are you only looking at last season?

That's what we're basing this off of right now, so yes.

V.I.P
08-13-2011, 03:07 PM
Still can't believe Marshall doesn't get respect... He holds the record for most catches in a game (21), also one of ONLY FIVE players in NFL HISTORY to catch at least 100 passes in three consecutive seasons! I'd put him over Roddy White (and it's not because of a division rival thing)..

Brandon Marshall career stats (minus rookie season)

YR - GMS - REC. - YARDS - TDs
2007 16 - 102 -1,325 - 7
2008 15 - 104 -1,265 - 6
2009 15 - 101 - 1,120 - 10
2010 14 - 86 - 1,014 - 3

yo123
08-13-2011, 03:14 PM
Marshall isn't a deep threat or a red zone threat which has to knock him down a few spots. I'm not really a big fan of his.

Splat
08-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Brandon Marshall career stats (minus rookie season)

YR - GMS - REC. - YARDS - TDs
2007 16 - 102 -1,325 - 7
2008 15 - 104 -1,265 - 6
2009 15 - 101 - 1,120 - 10


Those are pretty much Wes Welker's stats from 2007 to 2009 and I don't see him any where near this list.

Both are good players but not elite.

ElectricEye
08-13-2011, 03:20 PM
Yeah, Marshall just isn't the gamebreaker that the top flight guys are.

Jimmy
08-13-2011, 03:22 PM
Marshall isn't a deep threat or a red zone threat which has to knock him down a few spots. I'm not really a big fan of his.

marshall isn't a red zone threat? He averaged over 7 TD's a year before he came to quarterbackless miami. He has the size and the strength of a tight end and the speed and hands of a wr and he isn't a red zone threat? I'm not his biggest fan at all, but just because he had a 3 TD season does not mean he isn't one of the biggest red zone threats in the nfl.

Saints-Tigers
08-13-2011, 03:26 PM
marshall isn't a red zone threat? He averaged over 7 TD's a year before he came to quarterbackless miami. He has the size and the strength of a tight end and the speed and hands of a wr and he isn't a red zone threat? I'm not his biggest fan at all, but just because he had a 3 TD season does not mean he isn't one of the biggest red zone threats in the nfl.



He's not though, not one of the biggest threats down there.

Results>>Physical tools.

Complex
08-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Those are pretty much Wes Welker's stats from 2007 to 2009 and I don't see him any where near this list.

Both are good players but not elite.

Cause Welker is a slot guy who does not face the top corner every weekend.

tjsunstein
08-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Nobody remembers losers. And that's what he is, and always will be.
kSxTV9Ol-Xk

yo123
08-13-2011, 05:34 PM
marshall isn't a red zone threat? He averaged over 7 TD's a year before he came to quarterbackless miami. He has the size and the strength of a tight end and the speed and hands of a wr and he isn't a red zone threat? I'm not his biggest fan at all, but just because he had a 3 TD season does not mean he isn't one of the biggest red zone threats in the nfl.


Since when is 7 TD's a lot for a 6'4 supposedly top flight receiver?


Andre Johnson averages more than that and he takes some heat for not catching enough touchdowns.

BigBanger
08-14-2011, 12:30 AM
you're arguing about touchdowns. where the hell do you think most teams score from? the 50?
I don't care where he scores from. He is allowed to score from the 50. They don't give you extra credit or anything, but they will allow it. If he scores from the 5 yard line or the 20 yard line or the 50 yard line, doesn't matter to me. I just want the guy to hit double digits for once in his career. For the last three years he's been apart of an offense that allows him to put up some nice numbers. And he has ... Except his TD numbers are kinda average for a player that is viewed as the best WR in the NFL today, and, by some, to be the best of the decade.

If we compare him against the other WRs of today, we can see that he's, physically, in a class that few can compare to. His level of dominance is at the very top of the NFL. We can also see that some guys have him beat in certain categories of production. Larry Fitzgerald scores more TDs and has a post season run that Johnson can't even enter a debate in. Calvin Johnson scored 13 TDs last year (only credited with 12. The 13th came outside the redzone and would have won the Lions a game -- which hopefully proves my point, which is needless to say, that TDs are kind of an important stat that can alter WINS and LOSES). Calvin had 12 TD catches in his sophomore season. He plays with dog **** around him, but that's not an excuse ... It's only an excuse for Andre Johnson apparently: he has never had a running game, never had a decent #2 WR across from him, ect. Cris Carter, who started this debate, stated that he doesn't want to hear about excuses for Calvin Johnson. Kinda funny that this has turned into an Andre Johnson debate, and... excuses are being made for his lack of production in certain areas ... like TOUCHDOWNS.


You brought up the redzone and Mike Shanahan. They are not being discussed, like, at all. But, hey, that's your shtick, and I get it. It's cute. Whatever. Here's where you go wrong with your comments:

your argument is horrible. the fact that you're actually doubling down on it is worse.
You make no argument -- you even talked about unrelated people -- and claim my argument is horrible? You have offered nothing, but a wise crack that wasn't wise, and kind of stupid.

I'm not saying Johnson is terrible. Am I? What major, devastating stance am I taking against Andre Johnson? That he's only the second best WR in the NFL? OMFG!!!!!! GO BERSERK BATMAN!!!!! I don't think Andre Johnson is the unequivocal, best WR in the NFL. Holy ****. I don't have short term memory loss. I remember Larry Fitzgerald destroying the best defenses in the NFL in the post season. I apologize for remembering that kind of ****.

I just called Johnson the second best WR in the NFL over the last three years. If he scored more TDs (had a 12, 13 TD season or two), then he might have seen the playoffs by now and the argument would be completely different. He would also actually have a better argument for comparing him to guys like Terrell Owens and Randy Moss (and he is compared to them before you think or say otherwise). Those comparisons are also laughable, and that's considering how great Andre Johnson is. He is great. I'll repeat: Andre Johnson is a great player. But until he scores 12, 13 or 17 TDs in a single season -- which he is capable of when you consider his talent, QB and offensive players around him -- then he isn't a special WR that deserves to mentioned with the likes of Randy Moss or Terrell Owens or even Larry Fitzgerald.

When you are anointed to the degree that Andre Johnson is, then the bar is raised to an extremely high level. The eye ball test tells me he is not the same kind of dominating WR that Randy Moss, Terrell Owens or Jerry Rice were in their primes. I've seen all four play at the peak of their careers. Andre Johnson is simply not at their level. I don't need to look at that stats, not that they would help his argument, but he just simply wasn't at their level (Larry Fitzgerald? He has looked like he belongs with that group. Why? He's dominated the NFL like they did. The film shows it. The stats show it. Weather you want to acknowledge that or not.). If you do look at Andre Johnson's production, you can see that TDs are severely lacking compared to the special players at his position. There is a valid argument against Andre Johnson: Lack of TDs and no playoff appearances. Jerry Rice's postseason speaks for itself. T.O. had a Super Bowl performance that is pretty historic. He caught a pass against the Packers in the playoffs that people remember. Fitzgerald has dominated the postseason; dominance that rivals Rice. Moss is Moss. He scored 17 TDs as a rookie. He scored a record 23 TDs in a single season. Do I need to go any further? TDs? Post season? Andre Johnson has absolutely nothing of any importance to compare to those guys. Nothing. Maybe his fight with Cortland Finnegan. With that said, no one is saying Johnson is a bum. No one is saying that. But he is not the clear cut best WR in the NFL. He just isn't. There is a debate. Acting like there isn't a debate though? Well, that would be you, and you would be clueless. The guy is not perfect. He is not untouchable.

He should score double digit TDs for the next three years of his career. He should have a monster season this year. He's at the peak of his career and he's surrounded by the best talent he's ever seen. It's been that way for the last three years where he's had the opportunity to put up some TDs. Calvin Johnson scored 16 TDs in his first (2) seasons in the NFL on bad teams. Andre Johnson scored 17 TDs in his first (4) seasons in the NFL... also on some bad teams. Larry Fitzgerald... bad teams... look at the numbers...

It's hard not to like Andre Johnson. The guy is a great locker room guy, great character, he's a worker, he shuts his mouth and just puts up numbers.

BigBanger
08-14-2011, 12:52 AM
kSxTV9Ol-Xk

He will never be a winner. He'll never see the postseason. He's a scumbag that wastes his talent. He's not even a top 10 WR in the NFL. He never will be. I couldn't care less about his receptions record. It proves that his ability is a giant waste. He's a terrible teammate. He's a cancer in the locker room and he doesn't have the level of production (yards or TDs) on a yearly basis to even want to bother with the kind of headache he brings to a team. He'll play for multiple teams once his stint in Miami ends. His play will continue to decline as he loses his speed and ability to separate, which is already an issue he has to overcome by using his size, body positioning, scheme to put him all over the field and good QB play to make throws into tight cover with timing and anticipation. He's a good player, really talented (one of the best after the catch), but his intangibles suck. He is a loser. You can post his youtube video of him beating Terrence Newman for a TD (really the only other football related thing that it remotely memorable). It wont change anything.

He averaged over 7 TD's a year before he came to quarterbackless miami

Averaging 7 TDs a season for a three year stint would be a down period for most elite level WRs. He also doesn't have the speed and natural big play ability to overcome the shortcomings in Miami.

Brodeur
08-14-2011, 01:05 AM
Did Brandon Marshall rape you or something? Jesus.

tjsunstein
08-14-2011, 01:09 AM
I think he sat him in fantasy that week.

Saints-Tigers
08-14-2011, 01:43 AM
Cris Carter has a lot of nerve anyway, the dude was like 30 before he was even close to what Calvin was at like 22.

niel89
08-14-2011, 02:45 AM
He's right on the money.

Calvin can be great. But he's not great yet. Everyone loves him bc this is a draft website and we fall in love with prospects.

But in the NFL, he's not top 5 yet. He runs rounded routes, he should be much more dominant in the intermediate routes, he should just be better than he is.

I agree, all 5 of those guys listed are better than Johnson right now.


He can be better in the future, but right now, he's dead on.

QFT. I love the physical abilities that CJ has but I honestly think that he should be better than he is. He puts up numbers but he needs to hone his craft even more.

FUNBUNCHER
08-14-2011, 05:48 AM
Still can't believe Marshall doesn't get respect... He holds the record for most catches in a game (21), also one of ONLY FIVE players in NFL HISTORY to catch at least 100 passes in three consecutive seasons! I'd put him over Roddy White (and it's not because of a division rival thing)..

Brandon Marshall career stats (minus rookie season)

YR - GMS - REC. - YARDS - TDs
2007 16 - 102 -1,325 - 7
2008 15 - 104 -1,265 - 6
2009 15 - 101 - 1,120 - 10
2010 14 - 86 - 1,014 - 3


Brandon Marshall has the YPC of a TE.

He plays like a #2, and not a game breaker or someone with a nose for the endzone.

Believe me, there are several TEs in the NFL who could catch 100 balls if they were thrown at 300+ times a year.

descendency
08-14-2011, 06:12 AM
kSxTV9Ol-Xk

I think it's kind of funny that you post a record he broke in a game they lost to respond to his point.

But yeah, it's unfair to Brandon to say that he's a loser. WRs just are not difference makers in that sense. It takes an ultra rare talent to be a winner. It's a dumb example because he didn't win the big one, but think Randy Moss. There were games were he absolutely told the other team they were going to lose and there was nothing they could do about it.

Marshall is still an elite WR.

The Alex
08-14-2011, 11:27 AM
Calvin Johnson tied for the league lead in touchdown receptions in 2008. He managed this on an 0-16 team that featured Jon Kitna, Daunte Culpepper and Dan Orlovsky as their starting quarterbacks. That miraculous feat alone should solidify him as a quality NFL receiver.

Saints-Tigers
08-14-2011, 11:53 AM
Calvin absolutely could be better than he is, which is the scariest part.

BigBanger
08-15-2011, 04:59 PM
nice job missing the point completely. most scores are from the red zone. if your red zone offense is garbage, you're, consequently, less likely to score. the fact that he can score from his own 1 doesn't make it likely, and isn't a rational counter argument.
Excuses. He's been in the NFL since 2003. We're not talking about a single season. He has never scored the amount of TDs he is capable of in his entire career. He had averaged 6.25 TDs per season during the course of his 8 year career.

did you honestly *completely* miss the point, or are you just ignoring it because you either can't actually understand it or because you have no response to it? i mentioned shanahan because his red zone offense was absolutely atrocious. his coaching held back players (brandon marshall among them) from scoring inside the 20. often. funny enough, kubiak was his offensive coordinator prior to coaching the texans. hmm... maybe there's a relationship here...

So now we're playing "Six degrees of separation" to make up excuses for Andre Johnson's pedestrian TD numbers? Yes, I did miss that. And, no, I don't care to try and act like you have a point by refuting a BS statement like that. It holds no weight and is completely baseless. That would imply that Andre Johnson scored a lot of TDs prior to Kubiak ... when Johnson averages more TDs per game since Kubiak arrived (No, I did not look it up, but it is true). Like I said, you have no point and have no ******* clue what you are talking about because you are off topic. I can bring up irrelevant **** and act like I'm winning an argument too.

Terrell Davis scored a lot of TDs for Mike Shanahan. See? Andre Johnson can't score. That proves it.

i mean, that's all true if you're actually incapable of or unwilling to spend any time thinking. my argument is still that a crappy red zone offense will bring down a players touchdown numbers. i'm suggesting that that's a plausible reason for andre johnson's lack of scoring.
When you're Andre Johnson, it shouldn't matter, which suggests that you are missing the entire point of this debate. Some guys have a nose for the end zone and some don't. That's what I suggest. You can suggest Mike Shanahan has something to do with it and the red zone offense has something to do with. All that ... is stupid.

in all honesty, you could've actually pointed out that houston had the 5th best red zone offense last year (62.26% (http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scores-per-game)) and then gone on to note how many touchdowns they generated to people other than andre johnson from the red zone and actually had a counter argument. instead, you decided to pretend that the fact that houston scored .6 times per game from outside the red zone last year was somehow meaningful.
I already said that the Texans offense is extremely conducive for WR production. You must have missed that and just bitched about the statistic of total yards that I brought up. I honestly don't care where the Texans ranked in the red zone. We're talking about Andre Johnson. Am I rushing to look up the red zone success of the Lions? Cardinals? Falcons? Packers? No. Don't think so. It really doesn't matter.


please point out once where i 'went berserk' or suggested you'd said anything about johnson being terrible. once you've failed to do that, it'd be awesome if you'd stop lying.
Calling my argument terrible? That's going over the edge. I'm using a known fact. Andre Johnson is not a scoring machine. This is not ground breaking information. Saying otherwise? You'll come off sounding like an apologist and an excuse maker, which is what you, and the rest of the people that come running to defend Johnson, sound like. Now stop going berserk.

Raiderz4Life
08-15-2011, 05:01 PM
Bringing up Terrell Davis' scoring to compare it against AJ's to show he can't score is kinda dumb if you ask me.

CC.SD
08-15-2011, 06:17 PM
This thread is really all over the map, I think it could go the distance.

I hate to be that guy because I'd crawl over broken glass for Fitz, but his performance during the Super Bowl run is officially an overrated argument. Don't get me wrong he is still the best WR in the NFL but is it by a huge margin due to postseason success? I don't think so.

Calvin can get there. In fact the Lions are looking primed this year, which probably means disaster but I'll be interested to revisit this topic at the end of the season.

BigBanger
08-15-2011, 06:36 PM
please let me know how this is in any way responsive to what you quoted. it's like you didn't actually read anything.



what the bloody hell are you talking about?

let's make this really easy, because i'm sick of re-explaining something that really isn't that difficult:

1) most teams score touchdowns from the red zone.
2) if your team is incapable of scoring in the red zone, but is successful at moving the ball elsewhere, this may be a coaching/play-calling issue. thus i brought up mike shanahan as an obvious example. not because, as you'd like to pretend, i think mike shanahan has any effect whatsoever on andre johnson. but because he provides a useful example of the point i was making. this is hardly rocket science.
3) if your coach is holding the team back in the red zone, your opportunity to score touchdowns goes down dramatically. thus brandon marshall was used as an example.



that's completely non-sequitur, though cute. the broncos offense in the late 90's *was* generally successful in the red zone. suddenly, in the 2000's, shanahan lost the ability to call plays that led to touchdowns. if johnson's coaches were similarly inept, his numbers would suffer. again, this is not difficult.



so you're suggesting that, no matter how bad a team is in the red zone, a good player should just start scoring from the 50? you're actually going to suggest that a team or coach's ability to play inside the 20 is somehow irrelevant? are you planning on producing some statistics to show that, or do you still think that, because the texans scored approximately 25% of their total points (including field goals) from outside the 20, that johnson should've been accountable for all of those touchdowns as well?



you're using a single fact, and then ignoring any other factors that come into a player's ability to get into the red zone. think andre johnson should be able to score more often? fine. couldn't care less. but it'd make your argument a whole lot better if you'd stop pretending that there's only one possible explanation for why he doesn't.

i mean, it'd also be awesome if you'd stop acting like i'm making excuses, when i've done nothing of the sort. or if you'd actually read the comments. or think about them. but it's probably easier to just dismiss and continue repeating yourself. i mean, just in case anyone missed that he hasn't scored much in his career (we haven't missed that).
I'm pretty much done with Andre Johnson. I'll just leave you with a quick closing.

If Andre Johnson was the first elite level WR in the history of the NFL to play for a bad team, your whole argument could, maybe, be validated. But guys like Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald have played on some really bad teams -- sometimes way worse than Andre Johnson has had -- with atrocious QB play and they have managed to score double digit TDs. It's because they have the natural ability to score those TDs. Some guys can and some guys can't. Chad Johnson couldn't score at the level of an elite WR. Brandon Marshall can't. It had nothing to do with the QB or teammates.

Andre Johnson has ranked in the top 10 in TDs twice in his career. He was tied for 10th and tied for 9th each of those times. Then you bring up Brandon Lloyd.


yes, because total yards is a completely meaningless statistic. denver had the 13th best total yardage number in the nfl. they were 20th in total scoring. new england, meanwhile, was top in scoring, but only 8th in total yardage. i'd suggest that in one case, a team was actually efficient at moving down the field and scoring points. in the other, the team could move down the field, but was unable to score. apparently, in your mind, that's solely because brandon lloyd didn't have enough of a 'nose for the end zone'. which is a cute way of trying to boil down a rather tremendous number of other factors to lay the blame at one player's feet.

Don't bring up Brandon Lloyd and act like his SINGLE SEASON has anything to do with this. But since you went there ... He scored more TDs last year than Johnson has in any single season of his career. Lloyd's 11 TDs were t-4th in the NFL for the 20th ranked scoring offense. May I ask, what the **** was your point? Did you have any clue how many TDs he scored last year? No you didn't. That blew up in your face. Just shut up. You have no argument whatsoever. Lloyd played like the best WR in the NFL last year. On paper it kind of shows and the game tape showed it, which was shocking.

Andre Johnson simply doesn't score TDs at an elite level rate. His whole career has proven that. And it is a perfectly valid knock against him.

Raiderz4Life
08-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Michael Irvin didn't score TDs at an elite level either..only broke double digits once...he's in the HoF. Not saying Andre will but I do think the fact he's never been in the playoffs and plays for the Texans and not someone like the Colts or Pats or Pitt....he gets knocked down a bit.

K Train
08-15-2011, 09:23 PM
I'd probably go

1. AJ
2. Fitz
3. Calvin
4. Jennings
5. White

cosigned (10 char)

FUNBUNCHER
08-15-2011, 11:14 PM
Michael Irvin didn't score TDs at an elite level either..only broke double digits once...he's in the HoF. Not saying Andre will but I do think the fact he's never been in the playoffs and plays for the Texans and not someone like the Colts or Pats or Pitt....he gets knocked down a bit.


People like to downgrade playoff appearances and performances when evaluating players, but the reality is playoff performances define careers and are why some guys make it to Canton and others are obscure NFL footnotes.

Irvin, Emmitt Smith and Aikman were superstars in the playoffs. That's where AIkman and Irvin specifically earned the label as 'great' players.
If Andre Johnson NEVER makes the playoffs, it's sad to say but it's going to hurt his overall evaluation among the best to play the game.

DraftSavant
08-15-2011, 11:48 PM
People like to downgrade playoff appearances and performances when evaluating players, but the reality is playoff performances define careers and are why some guys make it to Canton and others are obscure NFL footnotes.

Irvin, Emmitt Smith and Aikman were superstars in the playoffs. That's where AIkman and Irvin specifically earned the label as 'great' players.
If Andre Johnson NEVER makes the playoffs, it's sad to say but it's going to hurt his overall evaluation among the best to play the game.

Most people haven't figured out that postseason performance is THE most important criteria in Hall of Fame voting. It's why Lynn Swann and (like you noted) Michael Irvin went into the Hall of Fame almost immediately whereas a guy like Marvin Harrison is probably going to be waiting a VERY long time.

Raiderz4Life
08-16-2011, 12:02 AM
People like to downgrade playoff appearances and performances when evaluating players, but the reality is playoff performances define careers and are why some guys make it to Canton and others are obscure NFL footnotes.

Irvin, Emmitt Smith and Aikman were superstars in the playoffs. That's where AIkman and Irvin specifically earned the label as 'great' players.
If Andre Johnson NEVER makes the playoffs, it's sad to say but it's going to hurt his overall evaluation among the best to play the game.

Not saying they aren't valuable, and I agree with you. I just think it is sad that AJ may not get the chance to prove himself in the post-season, specially if he remains a Texan.

Bengalsrocket
08-16-2011, 01:36 AM
People like to downgrade playoff appearances and performances when evaluating players, but the reality is playoff performances define careers and are why some guys make it to Canton and others are obscure NFL footnotes.

Irvin, Emmitt Smith and Aikman were superstars in the playoffs. That's where AIkman and Irvin specifically earned the label as 'great' players.
If Andre Johnson NEVER makes the playoffs, it's sad to say but it's going to hurt his overall evaluation among the best to play the game.

I have mixed feelings about post season success being an important fixture in the HoF votes. On one hand, I feel like a player shouldn't be evaluated by how well his teammates perform if he proves he's a legit player on his own anyways. However, on the other hand, I feel like if you play well in the post season and maybe even win a super bowl then that means you are part of a winning formula (even if only a fraction of that formula, you're still in it).

Despite my feelings on the subject, you're definitely right that voters base a large part of their vote on post season success ( with exceptions for absolute stat monsters like Marino ).

PACKmanN
08-16-2011, 03:17 AM
where does Marques Colston rank

BigBanger
08-16-2011, 03:52 AM
Michael Irvin didn't score TDs at an elite level either..only broke double digits once...he's in the HoF. Not saying Andre will but I do think the fact he's never been in the playoffs and plays for the Texans and not someone like the Colts or Pats or Pitt....he gets knocked down a bit.
I think Irvin was very deserving to go into the Hall of Fame. He's also one of the best WRs I have ever seen. He had some huge postseason performances in some historic games. He was nicknamed the playmaker because he made big plays at crucial situations in some huge games. Irvin has played in 16 post season games with nearly 90 receptions for over 1,300 yards, 8 TDs, 15.1 Avg., and 3 Super Bowl rings. Like I said earlier, Andre Johnson can't even enter in that kind of discussion, which is unfortunate because I want to see him in the playoffs and on the biggest stage. Another thing with Irvin that I don't see with Andre Johnson is the leadership. From a WR standpoint, I'm not sure there was another WR that could fire up his teammates and motivate them the same way Irvin did. Johnson is very quiet and nothing of the sort. This kind of on field demeanor has brought a lot of heat to DeMarcus Ware recently, and I think that too is a valid criticism. When I bashed Brandon Marshall for being a loser, well, it's the polar opposite with Irvin. Irvin did everything he could possibly do to win. He was a great blocker, worked his ass off and had a great motor. He didn't take plays off, he didn't run routes at half speed because he didn't get the ball. If things weren't going well, he would tell the coaching staff / QB that he needed the ball. I'm not sure Andre Johnson has ever demanded the ball. And that's what great players do. When the games on the line, they demand the ball. Some good players think they're better than they are and demand the ball on every single play of ever single snap and it turns from Michael Irvin to Chad Johnson. There is a fine line with WRs. Most WRs cross the line.

I think Andre Johnson may be deserving of the Hall of Fame if he continues playing at the pace he has set over the last three or four years. Like almost every player in the game, he does have some knocks against him, which have already been covered.

But I wouldn't compare the stats of two players who played in two different decades. Irvin wasn't on a team that relied on him to score TDs. That stat (TDs), specifically for him, is rather deceiving. I'll play a little "Did you know?"

Did you know Troy Aikman only threw 20+ TD passes in a single season... ONCE?!?!?! He had 23 TD passes in 1992. He only averaged 13.75 TD passes per season throughout his career.

It's going to be hard for a WR to catch 10+ TD passes on a team that isn't throwing the ball all that much and has numerous rushing + receiving options to begin with. Smith out of the backfield, Alvin Harper and Jay Novachek took a lot of opportunities away from Irvin to score.

The year Irvin caught 10 TD passes, Aikman only threw 16 for the season. That would be the equivalent of Andre Johnson catching 20 of Schaub's 32 TD passes. The Cowboys turned around and gave the ball to Emmitt Smith once they crossed the 20 yard line, or got close enough to the goal line for a play action fake to Jay Novachek. Irvin simply didn't get the same kind of opportunities to score as other WRs have. Irvin averaged half, or close to it, of Aikman's TD passes in several seasons. Most WRs don't do that unless they're putting up huge TD numbers.

So, in that sense, I would say that the Cowboys of the 90s and the Texans of the 00s situation isn't nearly the same for equal statistical comparison. Irvin didn't have nearly as many opportunities to score. Two very different situations. As I said earlier in this thread, the Texans offense is very conducive for WR production. The opportunities are there for Andre Johnson to score. With the Cowboys of the 90s? Not so conducive for WR production, which creates less opportunities to score.


Who is the better player? That is a much different debate and I think Andre Johnson will have a much better case when his career is all said and done.

Ness
08-16-2011, 03:58 AM
Another thing with Irvin that I don't see with Andre Johnson is the leadership. From a WR standpoint, I'm not sure there was another WR that could fire up his teammates and motivate them the same way Irvin did. Johnson is very quiet and nothing of the sort. This kind of on field demeanor has brought a lot of heat to DeMarcus Ware recently, and I think that too is a valid criticism. When I bashed Brandon Marshall for being a loser, well, it's the polar opposite with Irvin. Irvin did everything he could possibly do to win. He was a great blocker, worked his ass off and had a great motor. He didn't take plays off, he didn't run routes at half speed because he didn't get the ball. If things weren't going well, he would tell the coaching staff / QB that he needed the ball. I'm not sure Andre Johnson has ever demanded the ball. And that's what great players do. When the games on the line, they demand the ball. Some good players think they're better than they are and demand the ball on every single play of ever single snap and it turns from Michael Irvin to Chad Johnson. There is a fine line with WRs. Most WRs cross the line.

Johnson plays with a lot of emotion. For his position you kind of have to. He's a big play receiver and he knows that. Just because we don't see what Andre says through the lens of NFL Films acting like a raving lunatic or him being mic'd up during a game doesn't mean Andre doesn't demand the football. The same thing goes for guys like Marvin Harrison, Issac Bruce, and Marques Colston. Those guys may have a quiet persona, but that doesn't mean they don't desire the football or don't get frustrated during gametime. We can't just assume it's the opposite because Irvin acts like a maniac on the sidelines.

DraftSavant
08-16-2011, 11:03 AM
I have mixed feelings about post season success being an important fixture in the HoF votes. On one hand, I feel like a player shouldn't be evaluated by how well his teammates perform if he proves he's a legit player on his own anyways. However, on the other hand, I feel like if you play well in the post season and maybe even win a super bowl then that means you are part of a winning formula (even if only a fraction of that formula, you're still in it).

Despite my feelings on the subject, you're definitely right that voters base a large part of their vote on post season success ( with exceptions for absolute stat monsters like Marino ).

Look, a lot of people get confused thinking "postseason success" means whether your team does or doesn't win the Superbowl.

It's not so much an evaluation of how your team performed, but, rather, how said PLAYER performed against the best competition on the biggest stage. Terrell Owens' Eagles team may have lost to the Patriots, but there's no question who the best player on the field was in that game (with a broken leg, no less) and he cemented a Hall of Fame legacy with that game. Once you factor in "The Catch II" vs. Green Bay and beating the New York Giants by himself, you see how postseason success hugely determines legacy. Those games will live on forever in NFL lore, and rightfully so.

Not to mention, "The Catch II" is the day that Terrell Owens died and T.O. was born. That's a Hall of Fame story.

Saints-Tigers
08-16-2011, 11:07 AM
I don't remember people saying Michael Irvin was "hands down the best receiver in the league" or talked him up like he was an unstoppable offensive force.

If you want to compare Andre to Michael Irvin, go right ahead.

LonghornsLegend
08-23-2011, 09:57 PM
He's right on the money.

Calvin can be great. But he's not great yet. Everyone loves him bc this is a draft website and we fall in love with prospects.

But in the NFL, he's not top 5 yet. He runs rounded routes, he should be much more dominant in the intermediate routes, he should just be better than he is.

I agree, all 5 of those guys listed are better than Johnson right now.


He can be better in the future, but right now, he's dead on.



I can't believe you honestly think Desean is a better WR then Calvin. Look at his career numbers. Besides, you knocked Calvin all through your post like Desean is some well rounded WR who does everything well. He runs deep routes really well. Awesome. Yet somehow Calvin gets knocked because he rounds routes off?


If he's been producing these types of numbers, with the types of QB's he's had, at his age and this point of his development, the rest of the league should be very afraid.


Some of you guys act like if he doesn't do everything like Jerry Rice he's not that good then.

SeanTaylorRIP
08-24-2011, 08:40 AM
For me it's Fitz, AJ, Megatron, and Roddy. Then it's the tier of D-jax, Jennings, etc. Cris Carter is always blowing smoke. I remember when he got caught in his own lie years back, he was on the radio saying that he knew Charles Rogers and Mike Williams would bust and could have told Millen that before drafting them, then they went back and found him in 03 comparing Rogers to Randy Moss. He was a great receiver but he pretends to be all knowing, which he's not.

dannyz
08-24-2011, 07:10 PM
This coming form a WR that's not even in the HOF. I think Carter should be in the Hall but to say Calvin is not that good is just stupid.

CC.SD
08-24-2011, 08:55 PM
This coming form a WR that's not even in the HOF. I think Carter should be in the Hall but to say Calvin is not that good is just stupid.

Carter to Canton is literally just a matter of time, the fact that he wasn't first ballot is a bigger travesty than anything else in this thread.

LonghornsLegend
08-24-2011, 09:07 PM
Let's compare the first 4 seasons of Andre Johnson to Calvin Johnson just for shits and giggs:


Andre Johnson:


311 catches, 3,953 yards, 17 TD's, 12.8 YPC



Calvin Johnson:


270 catches, 4,191 yards, 33 TD's, 15.5 YPC



And we all know the talent Calvin had around him. It's like people just wanting to nit pick. Of course he hasn't gotten as good as he will get, but if you want to nit pick all these flaws in his game after 4 years you could do it for a ton of people.


He's got two seasons of 12 TD's a piece and Andre still has yet to score double digit TD's. Calvin averaged 17 yards per catch in his 2nd season, Andre hasn't had one over 15 ever. Calvin has pretty much came into the league and done things alot of elite WR's haven't in that span.


It's ridiculous to think Desean Jackson is better then him, or that anyone in their right mind would take Desean over him if your starting a team. Why would you? Calvin does exactly what Desean does right now and 10 more things alot better.


Just think about Vick throwing to Calvin for a season, with legitimate weapons around him. Hell, imagine Stafford doing it. We just might see how good he can really be. If he was running routes like Wes Welker he'd be the best WR the NFL had ever seen, he's not going to be perfect at everything.


But I'd love to see you put Reggie Wayne on Detroit the last 4 seasons, and tell me he'd be able to produce just like that.

Ness
08-24-2011, 09:15 PM
Let's not forget that Cris Carter has said a lot of things in the past that have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He was a heck of a player, but sometimes he just need to keep quiet.

holt_bruce81
08-24-2011, 10:39 PM
Man Desean Jackson? he's the third best RECEIVER on his own team. Yes I do take Jeremy Maclin and Steve Smith a head of him, both are better receivers. No way Do I take Desean over Calvin.

And that's not a shot at Desean, I love him.

Splat
09-25-2011, 03:28 PM
So ya............

JRTPlaya21
09-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Elite babyyyy woooooo!!

LonghornsLegend
09-25-2011, 03:43 PM
Desean better then Calvin makes me lol.

SolidGold
09-25-2011, 03:55 PM
That throw and catch in OT from Stafford to Johnson was amazing

stephenson86
09-25-2011, 04:01 PM
What's for dinner Chris Carter?

http://pressbox.freedomblogging.com/files/2009/11/eating_crow.jpg

Splat
09-25-2011, 04:05 PM
He will probably take credit for it.

"What I said motivated Calvin Johnson and that is why he turned it on."

Or something like that.

billybeejr
09-25-2011, 04:13 PM
All Megatron needed was a healthy Stafford. And Stafford needed was to stay healthy. Suh, Johnson, Stafford is the best young nucleus on any team. Look out for the lions the rest of this year and for the next decade.

inb4 stafford gets hurt again.

CC.SD
09-26-2011, 04:36 PM
lol, because of events described in this thread I'm now okay with Cris not being a first ballot HoF.

jrdrylie
09-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Calvin Johnson has 8 TDs through 3 games in my Madden Franchise. Real life Calvin Johnson can't compete with video game Calvin Johnson. Cris Carter was 100% right.

bucfan12
09-26-2011, 05:09 PM
Like I said before, anyone who speaks on ESPN NFL Live or there so called "Experts", have no idea what they are talking about. Like, I wonder if they even watch some of these games before making evaluations?

tjsunstein
09-26-2011, 05:25 PM
It's not like Cris Carter or anyone on ESPN is going to get fired for saying something like this so go crazy Mr. Carter. Just don't expect many people to respect your opinions.

borg9
09-26-2011, 05:36 PM
Ozzie Smith rule is in effect. Calvin Johnson gets to more balls than any receiver in the game due to his length, speed, and ability to catch balls at their highest point combined with his vertical.

There was this slant play during yesterday's game, overlooked by his other spectacular grabs, that demonstrated his range. Hard to say if Stafford led him too much but CJ used his entire length and wingspan to bring that ball in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j3e4SeIQcU&feature=youtube_gdata (9:45 in)

His range is what separates him from LF and AJ. And CJ ain't catching no Warner or Schaub like softballs, he's catching Nolan Ryan type fastballs.

#1

bigbluedefense
09-26-2011, 05:37 PM
I still don't think he said anything wrong. He said Calvin wasn't top 5 but could become top 5 with improvement.

I didn't disagree with him, I thought it was true. And he's making a leap this year, and he's definitely going to establish himself as top 5 by years end. But that doesn't mean Carter was wrong. He was basing his top 5 off past performance.

*shrug*

Brodeur
09-26-2011, 05:40 PM
I still don't think he said anything wrong. He said Calvin wasn't top 5 but could become top 5 with improvement.

I didn't disagree with him, I thought it was true. And he's making a leap this year, and he's definitely going to establish himself as top 5 by years end. But that doesn't mean Carter was wrong. He was basing his top 5 off past performance.

*shrug*

You agreed with him on DeSean being better than Calvin prior to this year, so explain yourself on that even before now. You have not once.

bigbluedefense
09-26-2011, 05:45 PM
You agreed with him on DeSean being better than Calvin prior to this year, so explain yourself on that even before now. You have not once.

What is there to explain? I liked DeSean's big play ability. He takes the top off the defense just like Calvin does, he gets doubled just like Calvin does, he had prior to this year more 40+ yard receptions than Calvin, plus he contributes as a punt returner, and wildcat RB once upon a time. He may not be as dominant as Calvin underneath, but he had plenty of versatility in his own right, received the same coverages, and had more big plays than Calvin prior to this year.

*shrug*

Just bc DeSean isn't as physically imposing as Calvin doesn't mean he was no where near his league. DeSean is dangerous too. You leave him 1 on 1 with 95% of the CBs out there with no safety help and he'll burn you at least once during the game.

soybean
09-26-2011, 05:49 PM
I was a hater of calvin johnson, mainly cause i like going against conventional wisdom.

I will eat a big fat plate of crow right now. Dude is a beast, a manimal, whatever noun you want to describe him.

To be fair however, the criticisms i had of him were justified before this year.

ie: disappearing in some games etc.

Brodeur
09-26-2011, 05:52 PM
Except that when Kevin Kolb came into play, DeSean was easily blanketed. No one could blanket Calvin even though he's played with crap QBs such as Jon Kitna, Dan Orlovsky, dead version of Daunte Culpepper, and mediocre QBs like Stanton and Shaun Hill.

He's a great weapon, but he's really not that great of a receiver. He has never been in Calvin's league, and he never will be. Calvin was top 5 before the season, and is the absolute best right now.

bigbluedefense
09-26-2011, 05:59 PM
Except that when Kevin Kolb came into play, DeSean was easily blanketed. No one could blanket Calvin even though he's played with crap QBs such as Jon Kitna, Dan Orlovsky, dead version of Daunte Culpepper, and mediocre QBs like Stanton and Shaun Hill.

He's a great weapon, but he's really not that great of a receiver. He has never been in Calvin's league, and he never will be. Calvin was top 5 before the season, and is the absolute best right now.

But what made Calvin top 5 even before he proved it? That's what I want to know.

Is it bc he's a physical freak? Ok....so? Until you prove it, I don't see how you can justify top 5 just bc a guy is capable of doing great things. It's like pencilling in Mario Williams as a top 5 DE in the league based on his measurables bc he should do things that nobody else can.

Sure, that is true, but until he proves it, you can't say it. That's my whole thing with Calvin prior to this year. I never said he'll never be top 5, all I said was he hasn't proven it yet.

I know Calvin is a freak, he's uncoverable etc, but you can't just throw out there that he's the best without him backing it up.

What if I declared JPP as a top 5 DE in the league? My argument would be bc he's a physical freak who can do things other DEs can't dare to do, he has very good production albeit not top 5 production, and he hasn't done it over the course of a couple of seasons but based on his phsyical freakiness and ascending numbers, he's top 5.

Think about it, is that argument any different from Calvin's argument prior to this year? Not really. We're basing it off of physical ability instead of proof in the pudding(other than the sample size being much smaller, i simply used this as an analogy, maybe not the best one, but it's the first one that came in my head).

That's my biggest beef with declaring Calvin top 5 prior to this year. He just didn't prove it yet.

Brodeur
09-26-2011, 06:03 PM
Two thousand yard seasons (would have been three if he hadn't missed two games a couple of years ago)? Two seasons with more than ten touchdowns? What exactly was he supposed to do here, I'm a little unclear.

Raiderz4Life
09-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Two thousand yard seasons (would have been three if he hadn't missed two games a couple of years ago)? Two seasons with more than ten touchdowns? What exactly was he supposed to do here, I'm a little unclear.

Its because his route running wasn't precise. Was cutting at a 47 degree angle instead of 45.

tjsunstein
09-26-2011, 06:23 PM
Considering Calvin's QB situation and his ability to do what he's done with that combined with his physical gifts, he has to be Top 5. We're seeing what Calvin can do right now, what everyone expected from day one. He just needed a capable QB.

LonghornsLegend
09-26-2011, 07:03 PM
I read something about Calvin I didn't know today.



In stark contrast to the Vikings’ approach in going away from Adrian Peterson, Stafford looked for his best player in key moments. The highlight was the 40-yard back-foot improvised heave to beat the blitz and let Johnson make the play over Cedric Griffin. With two second-half touchdowns, Johnson became the first player in NFL history with two scores apiece in each of his team’s first three games. His 34 touchdown receptions since the start of the 2008 season are the most in the NFL.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/38872/131/cover-2-killer?pg=1



What a beast. He's still getting better which is the scary part, and has the QB that fits him perfectly, first time in his career he's had one.


Don't be surprised if contract talks don't spark up sometime soon with him and Detroit.

LonghornsLegend
09-26-2011, 07:11 PM
But what made Calvin top 5 even before he proved it? That's what I want to know.


That's my biggest beef with declaring Calvin top 5 prior to this year. He just didn't prove it yet.


Well, the better question to ask is probably what doesn't make him a top 5 WR. Your trying to make an argument for Desean Jackson, and then say Calvin hasn't proved anything? So your not going to take into account that Calvin was productive with whatever crap they threw out at QB? Or the fact that he's scored 12 TD's twice?


Who has been the other WR to take pressure off of him? Or just another offensive threat period? Jackson is a gadget WR who runs deep and does it better then almost anyone, there is no argument to place him higher then a complete WR who does everything Jackson can, and a million other things he can't.


It's the same reason why as soon as the Eagles got themselves another complete WR, Maclin is the best WR on that team and Jackson is just what he always was, a big play threat you have to account for. If he's your #1 WR, and you have a crap QB and a crap WR core, he's useless. Calvin has already proved that he is good enough to produce in any given situation.


Can you list what more you wanted him to do up to this season? Andre Johnson has never scored double digit TD's in his career, Calvin does it twice in his first 4 seasons, yet Calvin hasn't proved anything. Lolll.

tjsunstein
09-26-2011, 07:15 PM
Over/Under 16.5 TDs for Calvin?
I'm taking the over, and would actually say he'll get 20.

shylo3716
09-26-2011, 07:31 PM
I wonder what Cris Carter has to say about Megatron now after that OT haul.... I can guarantee he is sitting there looking like **** with the long face :/

Ness
09-26-2011, 08:05 PM
I read something about Calvin I didn't know today.




http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/38872/131/cover-2-killer?pg=1



What a beast. He's still getting better which is the scary part, and has the QB that fits him perfectly, first time in his career he's had one.


Don't be surprised if contract talks don't spark up sometime soon with him and Detroit.

Wow he already has 34 touchdowns.

ElectricEye
09-26-2011, 08:33 PM
I really don't think Calvin has even raised his game this year. He's always done this. He's just playing for a much better team with better talent around him this time around. He STILL has a chance to improve and get better as he gets used to playing with Stafford.

J-Mike88
09-26-2011, 09:41 PM
Two thousand yard seasons (would have been three if he hadn't missed two games a couple of years ago)? Two seasons with more than ten touchdowns? What exactly was he supposed to do here, I'm a little unclear.
With 2 or 3 stiff QBs in there, with a little of Stafford sprinkled in.

Calvin has been a beast since day one.

descendency
09-27-2011, 12:06 AM
Two thousand yard seasons (would have been three if he hadn't missed two games a couple of years ago)? Two seasons with more than ten touchdowns? What exactly was he supposed to do here, I'm a little unclear.

I think CC just expects him to be closer to Randy Moss than he is.

Plus, CJ is kind of raw still. He isn't great at doing some of the fundamentals, which I think CC is picking at.

Halsey
09-27-2011, 12:13 AM
Johnson was the best WR prospect ever and is now the best young WR in the league, with the best young QB in the league throwing to him. Look out.

Brodeur
09-27-2011, 12:13 AM
I think CC just expects him to be closer to Randy Moss than he is.

Plus, CJ is kind of raw still. He isn't great at doing some of the fundamentals, which I think CC is picking at.

He isn't raw, he's pretty much finished and there aren't many holes in his game right now. His routes are fine, his hands have improved and are consistent, he's a red zone monster, he's a fair blocker...

BigBanger
09-27-2011, 12:24 AM
There is no longer a debate who the Top 3 WRs in the NFL are. It's just a matter of how you want to arrange the Top 3.

Now that Calvin is playing with an elite level QB ... I'm taking the over on 16.5 TD catches this year. I think this will be a 17 or 18 TD season as long as he stays healthy. The benefit going for him is that his offense can't run the ball, so when they get in the red zone, Megatron is going to get a lot of opportunities.


And as far as DeSean Jackson goes ... He's not in the same breathe as Calvin Johnson right now. Not even close. And I'm taking Mike Wallace over DeSean. Wallace is bigger and a better (more consistent / reliable) receiver that can also pick up key third downs and give your team a chance instead of disappearing two or three weeks at a time. He's got a lot more potential and he's turning into a true #1 WR.

prock
09-27-2011, 04:49 AM
I've always been a huge Calvin fan, and he is an absolute freak. I'm not sure why he wasn't top 5 before this year (Fitz and AJ are only ones with arguments). Who is better than him, even before this year? Desean is not top 10, and wasn't top 10 last year.

bigbluedefense
09-27-2011, 07:35 AM
Well, the better question to ask is probably what doesn't make him a top 5 WR. Your trying to make an argument for Desean Jackson, and then say Calvin hasn't proved anything? So your not going to take into account that Calvin was productive with whatever crap they threw out at QB? Or the fact that he's scored 12 TD's twice?


Who has been the other WR to take pressure off of him? Or just another offensive threat period? Jackson is a gadget WR who runs deep and does it better then almost anyone, there is no argument to place him higher then a complete WR who does everything Jackson can, and a million other things he can't.


It's the same reason why as soon as the Eagles got themselves another complete WR, Maclin is the best WR on that team and Jackson is just what he always was, a big play threat you have to account for. If he's your #1 WR, and you have a crap QB and a crap WR core, he's useless. Calvin has already proved that he is good enough to produce in any given situation.


Can you list what more you wanted him to do up to this season? Andre Johnson has never scored double digit TD's in his career, Calvin does it twice in his first 4 seasons, yet Calvin hasn't proved anything. Lolll.

The productive thing goes 2 ways. There have been plenty of WRs out there who have been productive with terrible qb situations.

You can also make an argument that the lack of talent around him leads to the team calling more plays for him and forcefeeding him the ball. It's not a black and white issue.

I guess I'm being unfair. In fact, I probably am being unfair. I just expected him to step into the league and have a Randy Moss like impact right away, and it didn't happen until now, so I was disappointed and probably took it out on him harder than I should have.

ATLDirtyBirds
09-27-2011, 07:55 AM
I've always been a huge Calvin fan, and he is an absolute freak. I'm not sure why he wasn't top 5 before this year (Fitz and AJ are only ones with arguments). Who is better than him, even before this year? Desean is not top 10, and wasn't top 10 last year.


I would have had Roddy White ahead of him going into this year too, but that's about it. Calvin is now vaulting to the top.

LonghornsLegend
09-27-2011, 08:47 AM
Carter was on Mike & Mike this morning trying to explain his ranking but it didn't really explain much. I'll paraphrase, but on a few notes:


On Desean Jackson: "I really had a top 4 going into the season of AJ, Fitz, Jennings, and Roddy. I needed a 5th and I threw Desean Jackson in there because he's a play-maker. Looking back at it I probably should have never put him in that group but he's a guy who makes plays."



On Calvin Johnson: "I was doing my rankings going into 2011, not projecting who would be a top 5 guy, from the film I watched he didn't look like that type of player and now he's starting to put it all together."



I guess he missed his 2nd season though, where he scored a TD in 10 out of 16 games, and had 8 games over 90 yards. Not like scoring TD's is new to him. Besides his quotes about him made him come off sounding like a hater for lack of a better word, since he was stretching and grasping for straws with everything:



"... We're trying to determine greatness and impact on the NFL game. Calvin Johnson, you don't have to double-team him to take him out of the game. Now, I made eight Pro Bowls. I made it with five different quarterbacks. They weren't always great. So I don't want to hear the excuse that I'm not playing with a great quarterback.




Right. Yet Calvin actually has been productive without a good QB numerous times so what is he trying to say? He's been getting double teamed for a long time now.

Nalej
09-27-2011, 08:49 AM
I hate people who continue with their bull. Can't just admit when they're wrong.

tjsunstein
09-27-2011, 08:58 AM
Cris Carter seems to think he was a lot better than he was.

bucfan12
09-27-2011, 11:52 AM
Calvin Johnson is hands down the best WR in the NFL. I mean, he's 6'5 230 runs a 4.3 40, and thats just combine and measurables. He's ridiculously hard to overthrow, his verticle jump and his freakish athletic ability. Even if he takes a bad angle, he still makes great adjustments on the ball to make a grab. I mean, in tight windows, all Stafford really has to do is put the ball high and 9/10 CJ's coming down with it.

A Perfect Score
09-27-2011, 12:16 PM
Calvin tracks the ball as well as anyone I've ever seen besides Randy Moss. The way he adjusts to the deep ball is just absolutely phenomenal.

Ness
09-27-2011, 12:20 PM
Calvin Johnson is hands down the best WR in the NFL. I mean, he's 6'5 230 runs a 4.3 40, and thats just combine and measurables. He's ridiculously hard to overthrow, his verticle jump and his freakish athletic ability. Even if he takes a bad angle, he still makes great adjustments on the ball to make a grab. I mean, in tight windows, all Stafford really has to do is put the ball high and 9/10 CJ's coming down with it.

I wouldn't go that far. I mean I think it's a tie. But I don't think he's head and shoulders better than Larry Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson. What Carter said was pretty stupid though.

LonghornsLegend
09-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Only WR Calvin is not better then is Fitzgerald. AJ is certainly top 3 but people are enamored with his physical gifts more so then Calvin it seems. Not looking at age at all, Calvin is more dominant then he is right now.


Fitzgerald is a different story for me. He does the raw WR things like jump balls, lobbing it up to him anywhere. But he has the precision to his game like Torry Holt or Marvin Harrison did, he's a technician. He works incredibly hard, never is hurt, never drops a pass, total complete package and a 1st ballot HOFer when all is said and done.

Complex
09-27-2011, 08:21 PM
On Twitter today, Stafford noted that Johnson has two touchdowns in all three of the Lions’ games this season, and he asked whether a fourth two-touchdown game against the Cowboys on Sunday might be enough to impress Carter.

Stafford’s tweet: “Does anyone think 8 tds in 4 weeks will change chris carters mind about an ‘elite’ receiver? #megatron.”

Carter himself owns the all-time NFL record for consecutive two-touchdown games, with four in a row in 1995. link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/27/matthew-stafford-takes-a-shot-at-cris-carter/)

Complex
09-27-2011, 08:22 PM
On Twitter today, Stafford noted that Johnson has two touchdowns in all three of the Lions’ games this season, and he asked whether a fourth two-touchdown game against the Cowboys on Sunday might be enough to impress Carter.

Stafford’s tweet: “Does anyone think 8 tds in 4 weeks will change chris carters mind about an ‘elite’ receiver? #megatron.”

Carter himself owns the all-time NFL record for consecutive two-touchdown games, with four in a row in 1995. link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/27/matthew-stafford-takes-a-shot-at-cris-carter/)

Ness
09-28-2011, 12:18 AM
Johnson has a nice chance to break that record playing the Cowboys. I think he gets it.

descendency
09-28-2011, 12:53 AM
He's on pace for 32 TDs this year.

tjsunstein
09-28-2011, 01:39 AM
He's on pace for 32 TDs this year.
I'll go on record saying he gets 20. I set the over/under at 16.5 though.

soybean
09-28-2011, 02:07 AM
I wouldn't go that far. I mean I think it's a tie. But I don't think he's head and shoulders better than Larry Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson. What Carter said was pretty stupid though.

I second the Larry Fitzgerald reference. Did anyone see his catch this past weekend? Being able to outjump two defenders at the right time and come down with the ball perfectly takes legitimate skill.

Breed
09-28-2011, 02:32 AM
#Megatron will have 3 tds if Newman doesn't play.

LonghornsLegend
09-28-2011, 07:43 AM
#Megatron will have 3 tds if Newman doesn't play.

He can get as many he wants to if Newman does play. Newman still has shades of being a good cover guy, but against a physical WR he'll get destroyed. I still have visions of Brandon Marshall for the Broncos when he played against Newman and caught that ridiculously long game winning TD.


Newman back tracked and circled him about 3 times, anything to not make contact.


Plus we have no safeties, yea. This will be a big shootout.

bigbluedefense
09-28-2011, 08:06 AM
The night is young, Stafford won't keep up this pace all season. Once teams start getting more film on him they'll figure him out, he'll level off and have a mini slump, then he'll either bounce back or continue to level off.

It happens with every qb who doesn't have many games on their resume.

LonghornsLegend
09-28-2011, 08:12 AM
The night is young, Stafford won't keep up this pace all season. Once teams start getting more film on him they'll figure him out, he'll level off and have a mini slump, then he'll either bounce back or continue to level off.

It happens with every qb who doesn't have many games on their resume.

I think he's on pace for like 40 TD's, so yea he won't keep that up obviously. But I think he's a good bet for 26-30 though and finishing with around 33 wouldn't surprise anyone. That's still enough for Calvin to hit 20 with most likely.


Interesting tweet from Stafford, and that Carter holds that record. So you know he's getting his 2 lol.

bigbluedefense
09-28-2011, 08:14 AM
I think he's on pace for like 40 TD's, so yea he won't keep that up obviously. But I think he's a good bet for 26-30 though and finishing with around 33 wouldn't surprise anyone. That's still enough for Calvin to hit 20 with most likely.


Interesting tweet from Stafford, and that Carter holds that record. So you know he's getting his 2 lol.

I just have a feeling Rob has something in store for that suspect oline. Pressure is the ultimate equalizer.

bucfan12
09-28-2011, 09:59 AM
Cris Carter is just jealous because he could never make 90% of the plays Calvin Johnson can/has made.

Ness
09-28-2011, 10:30 AM
I think Carter simply didn't want to admit that he forgot Calvin Johnson when asked about his top five receivers, so he made up a justification so his "analyst" reputation didn't get tarnished. If that is the case, I would have just said "Oh yeah whoops". No shame in that. It's better than letting your ego get in the way. This is the problem I have with analysts. It seems like they can never be wrong. I'm not sure if the networks push them to have this knid of mantra or they just don't want to look bad on television. Everyone seems a little more relaxed on radio though.

LonghornsLegend
09-28-2011, 11:23 AM
Cris Carter is just jealous because he could never make 90% of the plays Calvin Johnson can/has made.

Let's not get carried away here.

Splat
09-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Cris Carter is just jealous because he could never make 90% of the plays Calvin Johnson can/has made.

1,101 Rec 13,899 Yards 130 TD's.

prock
09-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Cris Carter is just jealous because he could never make 90% of the plays Calvin Johnson can/has made.

Whooaaaaaaa buddy. You must have never seen Carter play.

Saints-Tigers
09-28-2011, 12:03 PM
Carter<<CJ2TDPG

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-28-2011, 12:15 PM
1,101 Rec 13,899 Yards 130 TD's.

How many of those came since 2006? I rest my case.

bucfan12
09-28-2011, 12:26 PM
Whooaaaaaaa buddy. You must have never seen Carter play.

Oh I've seen Carter play back in the day and nothing to take away from him. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. But Calvin is such a freak athlete that he was very very good, yes, even elite without Stafford. With Stafford, he can be dynamic and downright unstoppable. Not many CBs can contend with a WR built like Mega-Tron/

Saints-Tigers
09-28-2011, 12:27 PM
1,101 Rec 13,899 Yards 130 TD's.


Peak>>>>Longevity.

Ness
09-28-2011, 12:30 PM
Carter is one of the best to ever play the game. Let's get that out of the way. That being said, this isn't the first time Carter has said something ridiculous.

Saints-Tigers
09-28-2011, 12:31 PM
Career numbers aside, Carter was never as dangerous as Calvin is right now.

bucfan12
09-28-2011, 12:33 PM
Sometimes, even the best players to ever play the game are clueless to what's going on in today's current NFL. I love it how ESPN takes all these retired players and think they are all experts.

I mean, there is a reason why most former players don't succeed in the NFL as talent evaluaters or GMs. (I.E. Matt Millen)

Ness
09-28-2011, 01:06 PM
Career numbers aside, Carter was never as dangerous as Calvin is right now.

Disagree. Especially when Moon and Carter hooked up. He still has the best hands I've ever seen. Even compared to Fitzgerald and Rice.

descendency
09-28-2011, 01:07 PM
Peak>>>>Longevity.

Dante Culpepper.

Saints-Tigers
09-28-2011, 01:34 PM
Disagree. Especially when Moon and Carter hooked up. He still has the best hands I've ever seen. Even compared to Fitzgerald and Rice.


Ok, so he's better than Johnson because he has better hands than everyone?

Dante Culpepper.

You point? Daunte Culpepper did play better than most QBs in that one year. Calvin will have more than one dominant year I'd wager.

Ness
09-28-2011, 01:39 PM
Ok, so he's better than Johnson because he has better hands than everyone?

Nope didn't say that.



You point? Daunte Culpepper did play better than most QBs in that one year. Calvin will have more than one dominant year I'd wager.

His point is that your logic of peak > longevity doesn't always hold up. Culpepper's best year was better than a lot of other quarterbacks that have had a lot of success in the NFL over a large period of time, have ever had. Regardless, Culpepper's career is considered lackluster because for the majority of his career he's played poorly. Steve McNair for example, never had a year like that, but I'd say he's had a better career.

Saints-Tigers
09-28-2011, 01:51 PM
I got his point, I think it's pretty clear, it's just irrelevant to the conversation and a deflection of what's really being argued by me (that Calvin is better right now than Carter was).

Raiderz4Life
09-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Also, Carter didn't start being productive until he was 28. Calvin is already dominating and he's only 26.

soybean
09-28-2011, 02:58 PM
to play devil's advocate... Miles Austin only has 2 less receptions and 2 less touchdowns in one less game.

Ness
09-28-2011, 03:12 PM
Also, Carter didn't start being productive until he was 28. Calvin is already dominating and he's only 26.

Good point, but it wasn't that Carter didn't have the talent. Early one he was labeled as a kind of selfish player who was also wrapped up in a lot of drugs at the time. Playing with Buddy Ryan as head coach didn't help either as those Eagles teams had like zero offense.

Johnson is producing at a younger age though plain and simple. So that's a plus. I don't think this overshadows Carter's legacy though as he was dominant in his later years. We'll see how Calvin does as time goes on. He has quite a ways until he's even in the same conversation though in my opinion. A few great seasons shouldn't crown Calvin.

I got his point, I think it's pretty clear, it's just irrelevant to the conversation and a deflection of what's really being argued by me (that Calvin is better right now than Carter was).

Fair enough. I'll just say I disagree with that stance then.

Complex
09-28-2011, 04:33 PM
to play devil's advocate... Miles Austin only has 2 less receptions and 2 less touchdowns in one less game.

He is underrated, I use to think he just had a lucky season but he is really good. I don't know why cowboys fans think Dez is better when all he has done is make a nice catch and get injured.

descendency
09-28-2011, 05:53 PM
You point? Daunte Culpepper did play better than most QBs in that one year. Calvin will have more than one dominant year I'd wager.

The point is that when you look at the peak of a players career, you get players like Dante Culpepper who had a total of 4 good years in the NFL (and that's being kind) ahead of people who are like Tim Brown who is struggling to get into the HoF because some don't think of him as a "dominating" performer at any one point of his career.

Obviously, no one (not many*) is going to say that Dante Culpepper belongs in over Tim Brown.

It takes a lot of talent to be very good for a long time.

CC.SD
09-28-2011, 08:02 PM
Cris Carter is just jealous because he could never make 90% of the plays Calvin Johnson can/has made.

Derppppppppp

Career numbers aside, Carter was never as dangerous as Calvin is right now.

Double derppppppp

Come on fellas I'm as big a Calvin fan as anyone but Carter deserves more respect than this.

King Carls 5 Year Plan
09-28-2011, 08:19 PM
sorry if this point has already been made, but i'm not going to read 8 pages of thread to find out.

if the direct question is who is better, the answer is Cris Carter. he has a MUCH longer career to base that answer off of. Megatron is MUCH more explosive than Cris ever was, but he just doesn't have the length or career to be ranked ahead of Cris on an all-time list. also keep in mind that Cris played most of his career during a period of the NFL when they allowed the defense to actually prevent a play. they were allowed to hit, tackle and make plays that didn't involve the ball. Safeties like Ronnie Lott & Steve Atwater patrolled the middle, the area Cris thrived in the most, and made WRs pay for the ball. all i'm saying is that it was a different time and things weren't easier back then.

Megatron is supremely talented and has the ability to become an all time great. he's just not there yet, but he may get there in less time than it took CC

Caulibflower
09-28-2011, 08:22 PM
Explain how someone who leads the NFL in TD catches three times in a 5-year span, in the midst of a run of 8 straight Pro Bowls needs to have more on his resume in the "peak performance" category?

Caulibflower
09-28-2011, 08:29 PM
...keep in mind that Cris played most of his career during a period of the NFL when they allowed the defense to actually prevent a play. they were allowed to hit, tackle and make plays that didn't involve the ball. Safeties like Ronnie Lott & Steve Atwater patrolled the middle, the area Cris thrived in the most, and made WRs pay for the ball. all i'm saying is that it was a different time and things weren't easier back then.

This, this, this. Today's NFL is MADE for the physical freaks like Calvin Johnson who blow up the combine (RATINGS) and then make a bunch of plays in the NFL because the NFL has specifically changed the rules so that defensive backs literally have to play like competing receivers when the ball is in the air. Of COURSE CJ is going to put up huge stats. You throw the ball up in the air, and you've got a typical NFL corner (5'10, runs a 4.45) competing with a guy who runs a 4.3 and is 6'5", which means his range is going to be, like... FEET longer than the guy covering him. And the guy covering him is only allowed to go for the ball. Can't hit CJ. So many plays you see of Calvin Johnson are Calvin Johnson high-pointing a ball while a smaller defender flails helplessly. In this NFL, is that a good play? Is that what you want to see as a Lions fan? Yeah, sure. It's positive for your team to have athletic freaks other guys, by the nature of the rules, can't really cover. I think Cris Carter has got to be thinking, "Calvin Johnson would have a long way to go if he played in my NFL."

LonghornsLegend
09-28-2011, 08:35 PM
I got his point, I think it's pretty clear, it's just irrelevant to the conversation and a deflection of what's really being argued by me (that Calvin is better right now than Carter was).

Did you just miss the part about how Carter is the one that holds the record with 4 multi TD games? Calvin isn't better right now just because he was bigger, stronger, faster. Cris Carter had some of the best fundamentals for a WR I've ever seen. His presence for where out of bounds was, the first down marker, end zone, all those things were like he had eyes all over his head.


I don't remember seeing him drop a pass, ever if it was even close to his catching radius.


Were talking about a guy who had 122 catches in a season twice, in an era that wasn't even as close to being dominated by passers like it is now. In one of those 122 catch seasons he had 17 TD's(which is alot more remarkable because they aren't just TD's because he's taller, he had to create seperation and get open for everyone) and 1300+ yards.


He's had 7 seasons of double digit TD's. His hands you could argue as some the game has ever seen, he's in that category. He was like spider man anytime you threw the ball at him and his catch radius made you think he was 6'6.



I can't believe I just went from defending Calvin to making a case against him but this Cris Carter disrespect is ridiculous. He made an idiotic comment but that doesn't all of a sudden make what he did on the field any less amazing.


I bet the only people even trying to make that argument don't remember seeing him, or even watching highlights. He was ridiculous, Calvin is not as good as Carter was in his peak yet.

bam bam
09-28-2011, 08:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T61vJ9-5tI0

Brodeur
09-28-2011, 08:52 PM
One of Cris Carter's 122 catch years was the HUGE WR boom year, so give me a break with that excuse.

yo123
09-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Cris Carter might be a jackass but he was really good at catching footballs guys, CJ hasn't proven to be better yet. I would put a lot of money on him eventually being better though.

Complex
09-28-2011, 08:59 PM
One of Cris Carter's 122 catch years was the HUGE WR boom year, so give me a break with that excuse.

1994 and 1995 were WR boom years? what is it now? since you can't even touch a WR, hit them over the middle or touch a QB.

Not to mention there is like 10 QBs that could break Dan Marinos passing record.

Caulibflower
09-28-2011, 09:04 PM
... I would put a lot of money on him eventually being better though.

Meaning, you'd put a lot of money at his career stat sheet having bigger numbers on it.

yo123
09-28-2011, 09:05 PM
Meaning, you'd put a lot of money at his career stat sheet having bigger numbers on it.


I feel like this is a douchebag comment that I'm not getting. But no, I meant exactly what I said.

Brodeur
09-28-2011, 09:05 PM
1994 and 1995 were WR boom years? what is it now? since you can't even touch a WR, hit them over the middle or touch a QB.

Not to mention there is like 10 QBs that could break Dan Marinos passing record.

There were still 8 guys that had over 100 catches that year, 8.

Meaning, you'd put a lot of money at his career stat sheet having bigger numbers on it.

No, he meant him being better. Because Calvin will be better, barring severe injury, over the course of his career.

Ness
09-28-2011, 09:08 PM
No, he meant him being better. Because Calvin will be better, barring severe injury, over the course of his career.

Not necessarily. I mean really, in what way? I'll just say it's definitely not hands. Everything else, route running, getting separation, deep threat, making big plays, blocking if you want to include that...Carter was magnificent at.

yo123
09-28-2011, 09:11 PM
Not necessarily. I mean really, in what way? I'll just say it's definitely not hands. Everything else, route running, getting separation, deep threat, making big plays, blocking if you want to include that...Carter was magnificent at.

Ehh....I wouldn't say he was a great deep threat. He did it every once in a while but for the most part was a possession receiver. Which isn't really a bad thing.

Brodeur
09-28-2011, 09:12 PM
Not necessarily. I mean really, in what way? I'll just say it's definitely not hands. Everything else, route running, getting separation, deep threat, making big plays, blocking if you want to include that...Carter was magnificent at.

First 4 years...

Calvin: 270 catches, 4131 yards, 33 TDs
Cris Carter: 116 catches, 1863 yards, 22 TDs

How about we actually give some time to Calvin so he can continue to rape his career numbers while being a top wideout in the league?

A Perfect Score
09-28-2011, 09:14 PM
I like how this thread mutated from "Is Calvin a Top 5 receiver?" to "Is Calvin better then Chris Carter?".

yo123
09-28-2011, 09:15 PM
First 4 years...

Calvin: 270 catches, 4131 yards, 33 TDs
Cris Carter: 116 catches, 1863 yards, 22 TDs

How about we actually give some time to Calvin so he can continue to rape his career numbers while being a top wideout in the league?


That is ridiculously misleading and you know that.

Brodeur
09-28-2011, 09:15 PM
That is ridiculously misleading and you know that.

Of course I do, but I can't stand Cris Carter and people continuing to shortchange Calvin is pissing me off.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
09-28-2011, 09:19 PM
Cris Carter hall of fame...oh wait

Ness
09-28-2011, 09:20 PM
First 4 years...

Calvin: 270 catches, 4131 yards, 33 TDs
Cris Carter: 116 catches, 1863 yards, 22 TDs

How about we actually give some time to Calvin so he can continue to rape his career numbers while being a top wideout in the league?

So what? Going by their statline means nothing. That's like discounting a lot of other guys from earlier eras because they don't have video game numbers. Calvin has it a lot easier now and days with defensive backs not being allow to touch him practically. Carter played in a tougher time and still dominated. Carter didn't really start breaking out the numbers until he was 28, but afterwards he had a ridiculous streak.

This is like automatically assuming Rice is the best receiver ever because of his statistics, which is not a good view to look at his legacy. It goes beyond the numbers.

Brodeur
09-28-2011, 09:20 PM
This is like automatically assuming Rice is the best receiver ever because of his statistics, which is not a good view to look at his legacy. It goes beyond the numbers.

Well, he is the best receiver ever...

Ness
09-28-2011, 09:21 PM
Of course I do, but I can't stand Cris Carter and people continuing to shortchange Calvin is pissing me off.

I think people are reacting more to the assumption that "Calvin is already playing better than Carter ever did" statement. Which is of course ridiculous.

Ness
09-28-2011, 09:24 PM
Well, he is the best receiver ever...

Playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for nearly twenty years helped. Really there are a lot of other guys that if they had the dedication/didn't cause drama (Moss, Owens) they probably would have had better numbers. I think Owens is arguably a more talented receiver than Rice ever was except for the hands. He just doesn't have the numbers that Rice does because of everything else that has happened in his career. Rice admitted the same notion about Moss, who he felt was more talented than himself.

And if Sterling Sharpe didn't get injured I think he would have been right up there with Rice.

Caulibflower
09-28-2011, 09:39 PM
I feel like this is a douchebag comment that I'm not getting. But no, I meant exactly what I said.

Wide receiver was a much harder position to play when Cris Carter played it. Cris Carter was one of the best to ever play it when he played it.

Wide receiver is now probably the easiest position to play in the NFL. What do you do with a tall, fast guy? you make him a wide receiver. Now, that in itself is not meant to disrespect Calvin Johnson, I'm just saying that he is, in every way, prototypical; the NFL has tailored its rules in a way that gives a huge advantage to people like Calvin Johnson, who can dominate their opponents simply by merit of their physical attributes. This is the "video game" aspect of the conversation. Is Calvin Johnson a top receiver in this NFL? Certainly. Do I fully expect him to put up some ridiculous stats? Yeah. I do. But I can't help but think most people are ultimately going to be looking at stat sheets when comparing players. Hell, even now what are people talking about? They're talking about whether CJ can match CC's multiple-TD streak. Cris Carter had a highly refined game. He wasn't huge or fast; he had fantastic hands, ran perfect routes, and hung onto the ball while getting smoked. I suppose I just get a bit rankled when people "guarantee" a player will be better than a player of a different era, who played under different rules, as if every aspect of their game can be compared and one player is clearly better than the other. Cris Carter might not be as good as Calvin Johnson if he plays in today's NFL, because the traits that made him great aren't as important; Calvin Johnson might've developed slower in an NFL that still allowed DBs to tee off on wideouts. We won't really know. It's just the "I guarantee he'll be better" stuff that irks me a little, because 1. it's just kinda bombastic chest-beating about your predictive powers (about a player who everyone expects to put up great stats anyways) 2. You're comparing apples to oranges. The game was different then. Different things were required of the position.

Bucs_Rule
09-28-2011, 09:58 PM
In order for Moss/TO or any WR to have a chance he'd need great QB play for his career. Moss/TO very likely wouldn't have left Minnesota/SF if they had Rice's attitude. So a key questions is what would the QB play have been like for their careers? That's an unknown.

If TO was cool would SF still have still be drafting when Alex Smith was on board? Or would they have done better, someone else taken Smith and then gotten Rodgers? Or would Garcia have been around and still playing really well so team might have passed on Rodgers anyway? Did they even like Rodgers and just pretending for negotiations with Smith?

After Moss left Minny Culpepper was a disaster. Was that totally due to Moss or did he have a couple fluky years? Would the O-line have been good enough for his career in Minny to give him time to get deep?

Longevity is maybe more key. Rice had a 1200 yard season at age 40, that is insane. Anyone wants to beat Rice records he will need to have similar ridiculous longevity. Moss last good year was 32, he'd need a lot more great years of productivity. TO did have 1000 yards last year at age 37, his big weakness is it wasn't until his 5th year that he had over 1100 yards. Owens had a decent attitude until he broke out, so don't see a different TO changing that.

Even with dedication would Moss and TO have been able to learn great route running? That would have been necessary to get huge numbers that Rice had and be very productive as they got old and athleticism reduced.

Ness
09-28-2011, 10:03 PM
Owens ran great routes. He trained with Rice very hard. He is a hard worker. The only thing Rice has over him is that Rice was obsessive and I think only missed one practice because of some other obligation in twenty years. Again I'm not sure on that. He may have never missed a practice, as in, he was always there even if he was hurt. Every time he even caught the ball in practice he'd run all the way for an imaginary touchdown and everyone else would have to wait for him to come back.

So when you have obsession + talent + longevity + being on a great team every single year you played practically for twenty years, you can see why he's considered the G.O.A.T. But those reasons go beyond the stat line.

As for Owens and his attitude, I don't think leaving San Francisco was actually the issue. If he had stayed his numbers would have probably went down. Maybe we win a few more games in 2004, but the 49ers are still a bad team. There isn't anything wrong with leaving a team if you think it's a better decision for your career. The thing with Owens is that he left team after team after team and wore out his welcome around the league. He played with four good/great quarterbacks in row in Young, Garcia, McNabb, and Romo and he still wasn't happy with whatever circumstances surrounded him.

niel89
09-28-2011, 10:28 PM
Playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young for nearly twenty years helped. Really there are a lot of other guys that if they had the dedication/didn't cause drama (Moss, Owens) they probably would have had better numbers. I think Owens is arguably a more talented receiver than Rice ever was except for the hands. He just doesn't have the numbers that Rice does because of everything else that has happened in his career. Rice admitted the same notion about Moss, who he felt was more talented than himself.

And if Sterling Sharpe didn't get injured I think he would have been right up there with Rice.

I think this post brings in a notion that I feel is relevant in this discussion. Rice is a guy who was disappointed with Moss because Rice knows that if he was blesses with Moss' ability he could have been even better than he was.

Guys like Rice and Carter took what they had and cultivated themselves to get the best that their body could produce. Rice worked his ass off on the little things and pushed himself as hard as he could everyday. If Rice had CJ's or Moss' body, could you imagine what he could have done cultivating that amazing raw potential?

I honestly think that is a case where Carter looks at the crazy raw ability that CJ has and just wishes CJ would put in the work and dedication to completely max that talent. I think that part of Carter is jealous of the talent that CJ has, and even though Carter put up a HoF career, he could have been even more if he had Calvin's body.

These guys just envy the crazy ability these other guys are blessed with. I know Calvin Johnson is awesome, but if he completely cultivated his talents then he could be easily become all time good. They are just semi disappointed that they aren't mastering their craft to the best of their abilities.

Raiderz4Life
09-28-2011, 11:44 PM
woah woah woah...are you trying to imply that Megatron doesn't work hard and just gets by on his ability? Cuz that's about as wrong as it gets.

And yes, barring any sort of disaster CJ will absolutely BLOW Carter out of the water.

bucfan12
09-29-2011, 12:06 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't say Megatron doesn't work hard. He's probably one of the hardest working WRs in the game today, so that's stupid for Carter, or anyone to question that.

Megatron can take over a game at his position and just make any catch possible.

niel89
09-29-2011, 12:14 AM
woah woah woah...are you trying to imply that Megatron doesn't work hard and just gets by on his ability? Cuz that's about as wrong as it gets.

And yes, barring any sort of disaster CJ will absolutely BLOW Carter out of the water.

No no no, not at all. I know that CJ works really hard, but I think that Carters frustration is that he believes that CJ isn't a master of the little things yet like Carter himself was. Its not that Calvin isn't good or doesn't work hard, it that he isn't a master as a WR yet. Mastering the nuances of the game is what makes good players elite. Its not always about size and speed. Running sharp precise routes, knowing how to set up a corner, reading a defense are something that make the good players elite.

Calvin Johnson might be the most physically talented WR to ever play the game, and it would be a shame for him not harness his talent to become one of the best WRs of all time. The guy could beat all of Carters stats but if he does it only without fulfilling his potential it would still be a little disappointing.

descendency
09-29-2011, 08:31 AM
The only way to tell how good CJ really is at those "nuances" is to wait until he's 30ish and his legs are average. Carter and Rice made a lot of money after they were "average" athletes.

LonghornsLegend
09-29-2011, 09:16 AM
RASB4uIMzQc


Some that knows how to youtube code could maybe code that 4 me to make it easier. But I think alot of people here need to watch that and listen.

Iamcanadian
09-29-2011, 10:49 AM
No no no, not at all. I know that CJ works really hard, but I think that Carters frustration is that he believes that CJ isn't a master of the little things yet like Carter himself was. Its not that Calvin isn't good or doesn't work hard, it that he isn't a master as a WR yet. Mastering the nuances of the game is what makes good players elite. Its not always about size and speed. Running sharp precise routes, knowing how to set up a corner, reading a defense are something that make the good players elite.

Calvin Johnson might be the most physically talented WR to ever play the game, and it would be a shame for him not harness his talent to become one of the best WRs of all time. The guy could beat all of Carters stats but if he does it only without fulfilling his potential it would still be a little disappointing.

Carter was dumped by Philly early in his career because he wasn't fully developed either. So all you talk about developing and becoming a master is silly IMO. It takes awhile to reach your full development. You talk like Carter had it all right out of the gate but the early stats on both clearly show that Johnson is way ahead of Carter's schedule.
Calvin has it all, he's huge, fast, great hands and very intelligent and will go down as an equal of Jerry Rice before he is finished, barring injuries.

Caulibflower
09-29-2011, 12:25 PM
So... since a player's career is defined by the stats he puts up his first three years, Desean Jackson is better than Cris Carter, CJ is better, Anquan Boldin is better than Cris Carter, Marques Colston is obviously better...

Or. Maybe the game is changing and it's easier for players to have an impact sooner. Like, you know how there are quite a few young receivers making an impact right out of the gate now? Rarely happened 20 years ago.

But DERP DERP, Calvin Johnson is the bezzzzzzt.

LonghornsLegend
09-29-2011, 12:32 PM
As someone in that video mentioned, Carter getting cut by Buddy Ryan was the best thing that happened to him in his career. He had a very well documented substance abuse issue for years there before he learned what it was going to take to be a pro then he became a master of it, and Fitzgerald picked up nearly everything from him that made him the type of player he is.


I don't want to argue hyperbole, and obviously everyone should be aware Calvin will be really good, but it was more Bucsfans comment that was the only 1 completely off base in this entire thread which got this started. I don't think some people appreciate his game enough for how skilled he was.


Listen to Fitz talk about Cris Carter and he could go on for days about his ability and being a technician.


That said, I've completely disagreed with everything Carter has said about Calvin, or ranking his WR's. Just not going to start disrespecting 1 of the best WR's to play the game just because of it.

Caulibflower
09-29-2011, 02:39 PM
So... since a player's career is defined by the stats he puts up his first three years, Desean Jackson is better than Cris Carter, CJ is better, Anquan Boldin is better than Cris Carter, Marques Colston is obviously better...

Or. Maybe the game is changing and it's easier for players to have an impact sooner. Like, you know how there are quite a few young receivers making an impact right out of the gate now? Rarely happened 20 years ago.

But DERP DERP, Calvin Johnson is the bezzzzzzt.

and honestly, I'm not just trying to rag on Calvin Johnson. He's obviously a very good player. It's the people who are "guaranteeing" he'll be better than Cris Carter and whatnot who are rubbing me the wrong way. I've yet to hear someone point out what specifically he does better, other than being taller and faster, and having more stats as a young player.

Ness
09-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Calvin has it all, he's huge, fast, great hands and very intelligent and will go down as an equal of Jerry Rice before he is finished, barring injuries.

Okay put down the pipe.

prock
09-30-2011, 03:12 AM
and honestly, I'm not just trying to rag on Calvin Johnson. He's obviously a very good player. It's the people who are "guaranteeing" he'll be better than Cris Carter and whatnot who are rubbing me the wrong way. I've yet to hear someone point out what specifically he does better, other than being taller and faster, and having more stats as a young player.

Being taller and faster and jumping higher is kind of a big thing though. Carter was a technician with the best hands ever. CJ is a giant, dominant athlete with great hands and who runs good routes. He doesn't do the technical **** better than Carter, but he is way bigger, way strong, way faster, and jumps way higher. Carter is still obviously superior at this point, but CJ has the tools to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest. He has a long career ahead of him to prove that. But I agree, people are getting carried away with the whole crowning him already thing.

K Train
09-30-2011, 09:24 AM
ive had calvin in the top 3 WRs for years now, the dude is just a monster. Seriously one of my favorite players of all time and the best WR prospect ive ever seen.

2 TDs a game is insane, and im happy for stafford too just kicking it into beast mode

Saints-Tigers
09-30-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm not arguing about HOW they get it done. I think Calvin right now can get it done better than Carter could, technician or not.

Calvin has a ways to go before he can match a peak season by Jerry Rice, but his second season, in one of the worst situations ever can match up with any of Carter's best, and he looks like he's going to have a year this year that can match or surpass any of Carter's.

I dunno, I like the guy who stretches the D, and is a dominant threat in the red zone. Carter is more of a guy you can get the ball to 110+ times and get good results, I just don't think he does the same type of damage to a defense someone like Moss or Calvin do.

Jerry is a major outlier in every sort of way, I don't want to try comparing anyone to him until they actually surpass him. His numbers are so overwhelmingly ahead of 2nd place in every way, that it's really mind boggling. 22 TDs in 12 games? lolol, just think about that.

But Carter? He's more of a possession receiver than a guy that warps a defense.

borg9
09-30-2011, 05:40 PM
35 receiving TDs in the NFL since 2008, most in the NFL. How's that for nuance?

Technique is great but it doesn't testify to the impact a player has on the game.

Ness
09-30-2011, 08:45 PM
People need to keep in mind the era that Calvin plays in. It's not the 1990's anymore were defensive backs could harass a receiver more than they can now.

Saints-Tigers
09-30-2011, 09:59 PM
Carter has never placed higher than 7th in yards, it's not like he was getting low(relative) yardage totals because of his era, or lack of touches. He was top 10 in 5 years.

Babylon
10-01-2011, 01:45 PM
I guess Rob Ryan weighed in that the Cowboy's receivers were better than Johnson too. I can half listen to what Chris Carter says on the topic of best wideouts but how can anyone take Ryan seriously.

Ness
10-01-2011, 08:39 PM
Carter has never placed higher than 7th in yards, it's not like he was getting low(relative) yardage totals because of his era, or lack of touches. He was top 10 in 5 years.

Well his yardage totals are impressive. But that doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about, which is strictly defensive backs having more leverage with receivers than they do now. It's just the facts.

yo123
10-01-2011, 08:42 PM
I guess Rob Ryan weighed in that the Cowboy's receivers were better than Johnson too. I can half listen to what Chris Carter says on the topic of best wideouts but how can anyone take Ryan seriously.

Lol, no one takes more of a beating for less reason than Calvin Johnson. The guy has to be so confused.

V.I.P
10-02-2011, 03:33 PM
Megatron with another 2 TD game...

vidae
10-02-2011, 03:34 PM
Cris Carter is an idiot anyway.

Ness
10-02-2011, 03:37 PM
So he tied the record right?

Saints-Tigers
10-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Calubflower,wtf are you arguing? You can't argue that Boldin, jackson and Colston are better, unless you are arguing they were better earlier than Carter (they were). I don't think they've had statistically better seasons than Carter's best, so stop using a strawman.

Calvin could eclipse Andre Johnson's career high in TDs next week.... Lolol

eeth
10-02-2011, 03:42 PM
I believe he tied Cris's record and also Calvin is the only player with 4 games to start the season with 2 TD's each game.

Saints-Tigers
10-02-2011, 05:38 PM
Who in the NFL would you say has really "mastered" all of the nuances of being a wide receiver? Larry Fitzgerald? a bunch of guys that are like 32 and older?

There aren't many guys at 25-26 that you can say are expert technicians, Calvin is doing just fine, and he's playing to his strengths. The dude is a nightmare on the jumpball, it really can't be defended if the ball is thrown right.

Rosebud
10-02-2011, 05:53 PM
Who in the NFL would you say has really "mastered" all of the nuances of being a wide receiver? Larry Fitzgerald? a bunch of guys that are like 32 and older?

There aren't many guys at 25-26 that you can say are expert technicians, Calvin is doing just fine, and he's playing to his strengths. The dude is a nightmare on the jumpball, it really can't be defended if the ball is thrown right.

Not disagreeing with you at all, but just because a player is a young improving player doesn't mean they're guaranteed to develop into master technicians, even if they do work hard every offseason.

Saints-Tigers
10-02-2011, 05:57 PM
Thing is, he doesn't need to be a master technician, sometimes using your physical ability is better than running a crisp route.

You can't defend some of the stuff he does.

Rosebud
10-02-2011, 06:19 PM
Thing is, he doesn't need to be a master technician, sometimes using your physical ability is better than running a crisp route.

You can't defend some of the stuff he does.

True, but just like Randy Moss becoming a brilliant route runner over the course of his career helped him dominate the way he was able to for such a long time, you can't deny that CJ developing similar great route running would add to the longevity of his peak the way it would Randy. Plus it makes more of what he does unstoppable while he still has great speed and athleticism to go with that frame and strength.

Saints-Tigers
10-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Indeed. It's scary how much better he might get.

JRTPlaya21
10-03-2011, 12:32 PM
Rejoice all!!

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2011/10/3/2465998/cris-carter-calvin-johnson-comments

K Train
10-03-2011, 12:36 PM
i heard calvin is suffering from an addiction to dominating....tragic story really

Shane P. Hallam
10-03-2011, 12:36 PM
I'm glad Carter can poke some fun at himself and change his mind.

BRAVEHEART
10-03-2011, 12:41 PM
I'm glad Carter can poke some fun at himself and change his mind.

Well, what were his other options, get put on blast every week while Megatron continues to dominate?

LonghornsLegend
10-03-2011, 12:44 PM
Well 20 TD's is a realistic possibility. They could throw him a TD everytime they hit the red zone if they want to, unless you drag him to the ground it's an easy jump ball TD. No defense for it.

K Train
10-03-2011, 12:51 PM
when i see calvin line up out wide i get scared for the defender. sometimes i even have nightmares that calvin is gonna find me in my sleep and just burn me for a TD