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Borat
08-25-2011, 12:32 AM
Houston Texans at SF 49ers.

Saturday, August 27. 5:00 pm pst.

The "dress rehearsal" game. Starters should play into the 3rd quarter. Texans are a tough matchup. Should be a good gauge of how far the team has come with the new offensive/defensive schemes.

Discuss and follow the game here.

Verloren
08-25-2011, 01:02 AM
Will try to wake up early for this game, but I don't think I'll be able to.

Ness
08-25-2011, 04:59 AM
A real good test for our defense with that offense. I hope Carlos Rogers plays.

Madirishman
08-25-2011, 09:12 AM
We'll also get to see the CB we could have signed: Jonathon Joseph.

phlysac
08-25-2011, 10:05 PM
By all reports Harbaugh will play the #2 offense against the #1 defense for a bit.

hawkeye123
08-27-2011, 03:43 PM
Any of you non-Californians have a link for the game?

edgrenade
08-27-2011, 04:28 PM
Any of you non-Californians have a link for the game?

I thought all the pre season games were shown on NFL.com

Madirishman
08-27-2011, 05:23 PM
I believe it's playing on NFL Network tonight at 8pm if you have/can access DirecTV. Enjoy fellas. Fingers crossed for an injury-free game.

hawkeye123
08-27-2011, 07:04 PM
I'm expecting the score to be ugly. Texans are playing their starters for 3 quarters.

phlysac
08-27-2011, 07:13 PM
I'm expecting the score to be ugly. Texans are playing their starters for 3 quarters.

And if it is Chicken Little will be posting in every 49ers forum on the net. Even though the score means absolutely nothing in preseason.

hawkeye123
08-27-2011, 07:21 PM
Nice play by Brooks!

And if it is Chicken Little will be posting in every 49ers forum on the net. Even though the score means absolutely nothing in preseason.

What do you mean?

Madirishman
08-27-2011, 07:22 PM
And if it is Chicken Little will be posting in every 49ers forum on the net. Even though the score means absolutely nothing in preseason.

I would say the outcome (win or loss) doesn't mean much, especially compared to when the games count, but losing 40-0 wouldn't instill much confidence in a team (especially with a new HC) I would think. Hard to find "positives" if a scenario such as that.

Ness
08-27-2011, 08:57 PM
And if it is Chicken Little will be posting in every 49ers forum on the net. Even though the score means absolutely nothing in preseason.

The score means nothing, but you can still take things away from the game. There is a reason why a lot of the starters for the good teams still look good in the preseason, and why a lot of the starters for the bad teams don't look that good.

I've only seen a little of the game so far and I'm planning to download it later tonight, but from what I've seen on NFL.com it doesn't look that good. Harbaugh isn't playing this game like most teams in the preseason do though in the third week. Seems like we still have a lot to work on though.

Ness
08-27-2011, 09:44 PM
Could be in for a really long season. From Maicco's live blog:

--Remember those problems the 49ers had in the exhibition opener in pass protection? They have not been solved. Alex Smith was drilled while throwing a first-down incompletion. On second down, Goodwin surrendered a pressure, and Smith was hammered as he threw. The result was another Nolan interception. And that's how the first half ends.

--All in all, it was a miserable first half for the 49ers. Their only offense came from outside linebacker Ahmad Brooks, who scored a touchdown on an interception return. Smith completed 2 of 6 passes for 17 yards and an interception. Kaepernick completed 1 of 5 passes for 15 yards and an interception returned for a touchdown. The run game wasn't much better. Hunter rushed for 19 yards on four carries, while Dixon gained 12 yards on six carries. The offensive line was, uh, not good.

binary
08-27-2011, 09:48 PM
oline is still pathetic...sigh.

Brent
08-27-2011, 10:05 PM
so, 6-10 or 5-11?

Ness
08-27-2011, 10:13 PM
so, 6-10 or 5-11?

Whatever it takes to get Andrew Luck.

Really though, I'm guessing 6-10. St.Louis probably wins the division at 10-6.

edgrenade
08-27-2011, 10:17 PM
I think that 6 wins would be the highest possible if everything works out. I think 4 wins is very likely.

Ness
08-27-2011, 10:31 PM
And we play the AFC North this year. Prepare to get whooped.

hawkeye123
08-27-2011, 10:53 PM
Geez you guys are really pathetic for thinking we'll go anything less then 7-9. Our division BLOWS. If we can go 8-8 and 6-10 with Mike Singletary, Jimmy Raye, and Greg Manusky we can easily go 9-7 with Harbaugh. With that said, and with the new system/culture/lockout i realistically seeing us going 8-8 or 9-7, depending on injuries.

And can we stop with this hope of getting Andrew Luck. It's not happening. We can go 4-12 (which is absolute worst case scenario) and we still won't be close to the 1st pick. Whoever gets the first pick will take Andrew Luck.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 01:04 AM
And what is Andrew Luck going to do when the QB has less than 3 seconds before he is absolutely CRUSHED??? I mean seriously!

Smith was mauled on every single one of his incompletions. It's a joke.

YAYareaRB
08-28-2011, 01:04 AM
pathetic o line is pathetic

hawkeye123
08-28-2011, 01:10 AM
Joe Staley needs to get his **** together

Verloren
08-28-2011, 01:36 AM
Keeping the offense and defense vanilla won't help when starters get injured...

Ness
08-28-2011, 01:46 AM
And what is Andrew Luck going to do when the QB has less than 3 seconds before he is absolutely CRUSHED??? I mean seriously!

Smith was mauled on every single one of his incompletions. It's a joke.

Even if we have a bad line, I'd probably take my chances with Luck over Smith and Kaepernick in the long run. I just think he throws the ball better plain and simple. And he makes quicker decisions. It would be nice to have the best offensive line in the NFL, but we have to be realistic. This isn't the eighties anymore were you can keep guys season after season. There are some guys out there like Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady that have the ability to still play well even if they are getting pounded all game. Smith has never shown this trait. I'll give him a pass for now since he's learning another offense, but this is probably his last season and unfortunately even if it's the offensive line's "fault", the 49ers are just going to have to move in a different direction. Eight years and no productivity isn't going to fly no matter who you are or what the circumstances are.

Again, not blaming everything on Smith, but just in terms of talent who I'd rather have, it's Luck for certain regardless of the circumstances.

Ness
08-28-2011, 01:47 AM
Geez you guys are really pathetic for thinking we'll go anything less then 7-9. Our division BLOWS. If we can go 8-8 and 6-10 with Mike Singletary, Jimmy Raye, and Greg Manusky we can easily go 9-7 with Harbaugh. With that said, and with the new system/culture/lockout i realistically seeing us going 8-8 or 9-7, depending on injuries.

And can we stop with this hope of getting Andrew Luck. It's not happening. We can go 4-12 (which is absolute worst case scenario) and we still won't be close to the 1st pick. Whoever gets the first pick will take Andrew Luck.
The Rams look like they've gotten better, and so does Arizona. The regular season hasn't started yet true, but the starters on both of those teams have looked decent to sharp. Can't say the same for the 49ers who can't even get their pass protection in order. The Rams and the Cardinals could easily beat us and we face the AFC North. I'd be surprised if we win more than 6 games. Think about it. We have a new head coach installing a brand new offense. That is going to take time to learn. The lockout was a huge blow to that as well. Not to mention we don't have an established starter at quarterback or wide receiver. That combined with a new coaching staff does not bode well for success right out of the gate. The only bright spot I see is the defense, but if the offense keeps playing flat and committing three and outs the defense will tire out and eventually look terrible.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 09:21 AM
There are some guys out there like Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady that have the ability to still play well even if they are getting pounded all game.

Rodgers didn't look that great in 2009 when he was getting pounded, and Brady looked like garbage last night when he was getting pounded. He had a TD pass, but on that play, the pocket was completely clean (didn't see ONCE in 49ers game) and Welker was open by 15 yards.

I agree that improving talent is one thing, but that talent doesn't matter if it can't be utilized.

WhatWouldBillyBajemaDo?
08-28-2011, 09:35 AM
Rodgers didn't look that great in 2009 when he was getting pounded, and Brady looked like garbage last night when he was getting pounded. He had a TD pass, but on that play, the pocket was completely clean (didn't see ONCE in 49ers game) and Welker was open by 15 yards.

I agree that improving talent is one thing, but that talent doesn't matter if it can't be utilized.

But Alex must turn water into wine for me not to boo him. I lived during the Montana and Young era and Bill Walsh would have never let last night happen. /typical KNBR caller or Damon Bruce.

WhatWouldBillyBajemaDo?
08-28-2011, 09:41 AM
One thing that really bothered me last night was Whiter saying that the 49ers did not game plan at all. I understand if you wanna go out there and run your base offense/defense but with all of the off season wiped away Harbaugh just wasted valuable reps for the first team offense.

At work so caught the second half. Dobbs (if he already hadn't) is a lock to make the 53 man roster. Worst time for RoJo to have a bad game. Ugly drop followed up by a miffed kick return. Good to see Ziegler back out there. Hope he gets a chance on Thursday to make the roster.

Aside from that this will be remember as the Holy Grail of bad preseason games. Just dreadful to watch, especially for a third preseason game.

VAfy-ya
08-28-2011, 11:04 AM
The Rams look like they've gotten better, and so does Arizona. The regular season hasn't started yet true, but the starters on both of those teams have looked decent to sharp. Can't say the same for the 49ers who can't even get their pass protection in order. The Rams and the Cardinals could easily beat us and we face the AFC North. I'd be surprised if we win more than 6 games. Think about it. We have a new head coach installing a brand new offense. That is going to take time to learn. The lockout was a huge blow to that as well. Not to mention we don't have an established starter at quarterback or wide receiver. That combined with a new coaching staff does not bode well for success right out of the gate. The only bright spot I see is the defense, but if the offense keeps playing flat and committing three and outs the defense will tire out and eventually look terrible.

Your putting way too much stock into pre-season. Remember how good we looked in pre-season last year? Believe half of what you see my friend. The line has issues but I'm not overly worried. We were very vanilla on D. Cover 2 shell on third downs mostly, only rushing 4. Lots of zone against multiple WR sets. Anytime I see Aldon Smith in man coverage on Owen Daniels in the slot, I can't take that as a serious game-plan. That's not something I think you'll see in the regular season. O-Line breakdowns are a concerned but I don't believe the constant shuffling in and out of bodies during the first half helped cohesion. Once Harbs settles on the 5 starters and lets them build up some chemistry leading up to the opener, I think those problems will iron themselves out.

The Rams look improved but still nothing to be overly concerned about. The Cards still have no pass-rush and no O-Line. Couple of good showings in pre-season wont change that. If we look like this Sept 11, then maybe I might worry but until then I don't see it as "the sky is falling".

Ness
08-28-2011, 11:59 AM
Rodgers didn't look that great in 2009 when he was getting pounded, and Brady looked like garbage last night when he was getting pounded. He had a TD pass, but on that play, the pocket was completely clean (didn't see ONCE in 49ers game) and Welker was open by 15 yards.

I agree that improving talent is one thing, but that talent doesn't matter if it can't be utilized.

Rogers did look great in 2009. He was still productive despite getting dropped all the time and was one of the highest rated quarterbacks in the league. The team still had one of the most potent offenses in the NFL especially through the air, despite all of those sacks. Even if you have a bad line, having better talent under center still counts.

Your putting way too much stock into pre-season. Remember how good we looked in pre-season last year? Believe half of what you see my friend. The line has issues but I'm not overly worried. We were very vanilla on D. Cover 2 shell on third downs mostly, only rushing 4. Lots of zone against multiple WR sets. Anytime I see Aldon Smith in man coverage on Owen Daniels in the slot, I can't take that as a serious game-plan. That's not something I think you'll see in the regular season. O-Line breakdowns are a concerned but I don't believe the constant shuffling in and out of bodies during the first half helped cohesion. Once Harbs settles on the 5 starters and lets them build up some chemistry leading up to the opener, I think those problems will iron themselves out.

The Rams look improved but still nothing to be overly concerned about. The Cards still have no pass-rush and no O-Line. Couple of good showings in pre-season wont change that. If we look like this Sept 11, then maybe I might worry but until then I don't see it as "the sky is falling".

And I think you're being way too optimistic. I felt the same way before the first preseason game. New head coaching staff, practically zero proved players on offense, and little time to prepare with the lockout spells disaster. The only things that have changed thus far is that the Rams and Cardinals look better than advertised. We didn't look good in preseason last year. At least the starters didn't "wow" me. My gripe is mostly on the offensive line and the guys losing their one on ones. Preseason has nothing to do with players simply getting beat at the point of attack.

Madirishman
08-28-2011, 12:13 PM
This game was indeed tough watch but there is a method to Harbaugh's madness, and we'll see in a year or two if this process pays off. I tryst that he is the right man for the job and is easily the best HC we've had seen Mariucci. He and his coaching staff were at one of the biggest disadvantages in the league with the lockout. It's hard to make an impact when you can't see your players, give them playbooks, have OTA's to evaluate them (other then tape), change up combinations (like the O-Line) to find chemistry. So, Harbaugh & Co. are using the preseason to make a lot of these important evaluations, finding his guys that can be coached up and improve, playing better together eventually. It's a whole different strategy, which is behind a team like the Texans, who have a proven explosive offense with roles defined. Therefore, we should expect the Niners to get rolled. The question is; how much of this ugliness will carry over into the regular season? Hopefully, Harbaugh will have figures out the pieces of the puzzle by then and can put players in better positions where they'll shine.

Kap is still green but he looks more poised than Alex back there. Neither guy had much time to throw it but at this point, Alex must only be distancing himself during practice, as there's not much of a gap in games, especially considering how many years of experience Alex has on Kap.

The most interesting thing to watch the whole game was Harbaugh's truck with the huge spider web that's been accumulating since Feb and he won't wash the truck and kill the spider. They said Harbaugh told them he talks to the spider....wonder what he's telling it?

VAfy-ya
08-28-2011, 02:37 PM
And I think you're being way too optimistic. I felt the same way before the first preseason game. New head coaching staff, practically zero proved players on offense, and little time to prepare with the lockout spells disaster. The only things that have changed thus far is that the Rams and Cardinals look better than advertised. We didn't look good in preseason last year. At least the starters didn't "wow" me. My gripe is mostly on the offensive line and the guys losing their one on ones. Preseason has nothing to do with players simply getting beat at the point of attack.

It wasn't all one on one. Alot of it was just simple mis-communication. Antonio Smith came through on stunts a couple of times. And thats what I think will improve with time. Alot of those communications issue have to be ironed out through reps together, something that's hard to do when your moving guys around, trying to evaulate talent. You see Synder start the game as the center, leave, then come back in at RG. Its hard to get a rhythm between 5 guys doing things of that nature. Once the starters are settled on and guys get to get a bulk of the work together, I think those issues will be non-existent. Call it optimism or whatever. I just cant get too worked up over meaningless game we obviously didn't gameplan for. Especially when one team is treating it like a dress rehersal and the other is treating it like a talent evaluation.

Borat
08-28-2011, 03:11 PM
It's hard to see what I'm typing since I gouged my eyes out during the game last night.

I think we're in for a loooooooooong season again.

Ness
08-28-2011, 03:20 PM
It wasn't all one on one. Alot of it was just simple mis-communication. Antonio Smith came through on stunts a couple of times. And thats what I think will improve with time. Alot of those communications issue have to be ironed out through reps together, something that's hard to do when your moving guys around, trying to evaulate talent. You see Synder start the game as the center, leave, then come back in at RG. Its hard to get a rhythm between 5 guys doing things of that nature. Once the starters are settled on and guys get to get a bulk of the work together, I think those issues will be non-existent. Call it optimism or whatever. I just cant get too worked up over meaningless game we obviously didn't gameplan for. Especially when one team is treating it like a dress rehersal and the other is treating it like a talent evaluation.

Eh. It's easy to say it was a "this or that" game when you get blasted. Kind of just comes off as a terrible excuse. The 49ers looked awful plain and simple. Whether it's guys sucking or just being plain inexperienced, it's going to take it's toll when the regular season starts. It's unrealistic for a team that has so many new variables involved to "iron things out" and be really productive in a short amount of time. Even if the experience issue wasn't a factor, the players we have may just not be good period.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 04:44 PM
Rogers did look great in 2009. He was still productive despite getting dropped all the time and was one of the highest rated quarterbacks in the league. The team still had one of the most potent offenses in the NFL especially through the air, despite all of those sacks. Even if you have a bad line, having better talent under center still counts.

He didn't look good when he was getting crushed. No QB does. I'm not comparing proficiency here, I'm comparing apples to oranges when it comes to protection. I believe it was Sando who wrote the article about someone who used a stop-watch to compare the protections between Rodgers and Smith. Rodgers was sacked more often but it was chalked up to him trying to make plays in the pocket. He was sacked at just under 4 seconds per sack while Smith was sacked at under 3 seconds I believe.

It's a totally different thing.

Rewatch how Brady looked last night. There's a difference between taking sacks, and having absolutely no chance other than to be sacked. In the latter, no QB has success.

This isn't an Alexcuse... it's an excuse for ANY QB that is regularly being sacked before they even finish their drop-backs let alone have time to make read-progressions. Even when there's time to make a read, the pocket is collapsing. It's terrible. I'd like to see a clean pocket for once. I mean a truly clean pocket. You know, like the one's the 49ers opponent's QB always have.

binary
08-28-2011, 06:00 PM
The future QB isn't on the roster imo. Kap just doesn't look like he'll translate, jut a feeling I have..the guy is just too funky and inaccurate with his throws, I can't see him being good.

Alex really had no chance, dude was getting roughed up on his final step of the drop, that's ridiculous. If we bring in another rookie next year, he's gonna get crushed too...this oline is so freakin' dire.

dan77733
08-28-2011, 06:06 PM
After reading the last page plus worth of posts, im going to assume that the 49ers OL is their biggest problem and needs to be fixed because if its not, it wont matter who our QB, RB and WR's are.

And I guess the ratings in Madden for the OL (Staley 88, Iupati 88, Goodwin 80, Snyder/Rachal 79 and Davis 77) are overrated. Oh well. I have only played a few quick games thus far and must admit love the signing of Braylon Edwards. Really hoping he can have a good season and we extend him and its sad that im doing better in Madden than the team is doing in reality.

With that said, lets just wait until the season opener in two weeks before we go nuts or anything.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 08:10 PM
Here's a cringe-inducing reminder of last night...

Alex Smith, for example, dropped back for eight passes and was hit five times (three pressures, two sacks). The three occasions in which Smith dropped back and wasn't drilled? One was on a designed rollout, another was a three-step drop on a slant to Ted Ginn and the other came when he was in the shotgun, took two steps and had his pass batted down at the line.

In other words, Smith was dropkicked any time he took a five-step drop. His two completions came on the rollout and the slant to Ginn.

As announcer Tim Ryan said late in the second half, "He can't even get to his back step."

FIRST DRIVE

2-7-SF27: Smith takes a three-step drop, plants and finds Ginn on a slant for an eight-yard gain.

3-5-SF40: Texans LB Connor Barwin lines up over LT Joe Staley, shoves his left hand into Staley's chest and bull rushes his way to Smith. Result: six-yard sack.

SECOND DRIVE

1-10-SF 20: On a designed rollout, Smith finds Josh Morgan open in the right flat for a nine-yard gain.

2-1-SF 29: LG Mike Iupati begins by blocking down on DT Shaun Cody, who is being blocked by C Jonathan Goodwin. Iupati quickly reverses course and turns left, but it's too late. DE Antonio Smith (get used to this name) blows by Iupati and throws Smith on his back for a seven-yard loss. After the game, Iupati said he had a "brain f--t" on one play. Guessing this was the f--t in question.

3-8-SF 21: Antonio Smith slides by RG Adam Snyder and hits Alex Smith in the waist as he throws. Smith's sideline pass to Ginn sails high. Ginn catches the pass, but can't stay in bounds.

FIFTH DRIVE

1-10-SF 31: Smith, in the shotgun, takes a two-step drop, plants and has his pass batted down at the line by DE J.J. Watt.

SIXTH DRIVE

1-10-HOU 47: Antonio Smith blows by RG Chilo Rachal, forcing Alex Smith to step up and, in mid-throw, get leveled by ILB Brian Cushing, who was lined up at left defensive end and looped by RT Alex Boone. Result: Smith floats an incomplete duck in the right flat.

2-10-HOU 47: The first-half ends fittingly for the Niners offense. Watt, lined up in front of Iupati, stunts and is picked up by Rachal. But that's it for the good news. Antonio Smith, lined up in front of Rachal, loops rights, overpowers C Jonathan Goodwin and pops Smith in the sternum, forcing a wobbly interception to Nolan. A half-beat after Antonio Smith nails him, Barwin hits Smith in the back after bull rushing through Iupati and Staley.

Borat
08-28-2011, 09:19 PM
/Borat gouges eyes out again.

Ness
08-28-2011, 09:43 PM
He didn't look good when he was getting crushed. No QB does. I'm not comparing proficiency here, I'm comparing apples to oranges when it comes to protection. I believe it was Sando who wrote the article about someone who used a stop-watch to compare the protections between Rodgers and Smith. Rodgers was sacked more often but it was chalked up to him trying to make plays in the pocket. He was sacked at just under 4 seconds per sack while Smith was sacked at under 3 seconds I believe.

It's a totally different thing.

Rewatch how Brady looked last night. There's a difference between taking sacks, and having absolutely no chance other than to be sacked. In the latter, no QB has success.

This isn't an Alexcuse... it's an excuse for ANY QB that is regularly being sacked before they even finish their drop-backs let alone have time to make read-progressions. Even when there's time to make a read, the pocket is collapsing. It's terrible. I'd like to see a clean pocket for once. I mean a truly clean pocket. You know, like the one's the 49ers opponent's QB always have.

Regardless, one quarterback makes plays with a terrible pocket, the other one doesn't. There are quarterbacks out there that have quicker feet, quicker mechanics, and just make better decisions. Rodgers goes out and puts up 30 touchdowns with a terrible pocket. He doesn't need an excuse.

You're telling me that if the 49ers have a shot at Andrew Luck and pick him he is no possible way going to help? It isn't possible to have a more productive player under center even if the offensive line overall isn't great? Is this possible yes or no?

phlysac
08-28-2011, 09:54 PM
Regardless, one quarterback makes plays with a terrible pocket, the other one doesn't. There are quarterbacks out there that have quicker feet, quicker mechanics, and just make better decisions. Rodgers goes out and puts up 30 touchdowns with a terrible pocket. He doesn't need an excuse.

You're telling me that if the 49ers have a shot at Andrew Luck and pick him he is no possible way going to help? It isn't possible to have a more productive player under center even if the offensive line overall isn't great? Is this possible yes or no?

You're completely ignoring MY point in hopes of getting YOURS across.

1. I support improvement at ALL positions including QB.
2. Many QBs are bettter than Alex Smith (including Aaron Rodgers.)


MY point...

Aaron Rodgers has NEVER, I repeat NEVER been consistently sacked at the rate and ease as Smith. Even his "quicke feet" and "quicker mechanics" would be COMPLETELY USELESS if he's getting hit on his back step.

I'm not arguing past seasons. I'm merely admonishing that it is IMPOSSIBLE to read a QB in Harbaugh's 49ers offense currently. The QB simply doesn't have time to pass the ball.

If a 49ers QB routinely had time AND sucked it up, then yes, I would be on the same side of the argument as you. Currently, it doesn't matter what QB is placed back there.

Ness
08-28-2011, 09:56 PM
The future QB isn't on the roster imo. Kap just doesn't look like he'll translate, jut a feeling I have..the guy is just too funky and inaccurate with his throws, I can't see him being good.

Alex really had no chance, dude was getting roughed up on his final step of the drop, that's ridiculous. If we bring in another rookie next year, he's gonna get crushed too...this oline is so freakin' dire.

We can make a lot of changes on the offensive line in a year's time. Draft better, free agency, and trades. We really need an upgrade at tackle. Staley looks like he's getting worse every year.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 09:58 PM
You're telling me that if the 49ers have a shot at Andrew Luck and pick him he is no possible way going to help? It isn't possible to have a more productive player under center even if the offensive line overall isn't great? Is this possible yes or no?

Yes, that's what I'm telling you. No QB, ZERO, can have success if they can't even set their back foot and make an initial read.

Ness
08-28-2011, 10:04 PM
You're completely ignoring MY point in hopes of getting YOURS across.

1. I support improvement at ALL positions including QB.
2. Many QBs are bettter than Alex Smith (including Aaron Rodgers.)


MY point...

Aaron Rodgers has NEVER, I repeat NEVER been consistently sacked at the rate and ease as Smith. Even his "quicke feet" and "quicker mechanics" would be COMPLETELY USELESS if he's getting hit on his back step.

I'm not arguing past seasons. I'm merely admonishing that it is IMPOSSIBLE to read a QB in Harbaugh's 49ers offense currently. The QB simply doesn't have time to pass the ball.

If a 49ers QB routinely had time AND sucked it up, then yes, I would be on the same side of the argument as you. Currently, it doesn't matter what QB is placed back there.
Not really. I understood what you had to say. I just disagreed with it. We need upgrades at a lot of positions and quarterback is one of them. I felt this way before Harbaugh was even hired.

All in all it doesn't matter. Alex is gone in a year and someone else will be under center even if our offensive line is to blame. The 49ers are too inexperienced/don't have enough good players on offense to make any kind of playoff push even in the NFC West. Smith's fate is sealed unless he magically turns into Peyton Manning and the offensive line magically starts to play top notch.

Ness
08-28-2011, 10:07 PM
Yes, that's what I'm telling you. No QB, ZERO, can have success if they can't even set their back foot and make an initial read.

Oh I completely disagree here then. I'm watching the 49ers game now. And there have been a couple instances where the pocket was clean. It was minimal, but they were there. It's not the worst pocket I've ever seen. And there have been quarterbacks with just as bad of a line that have still put up good to great seasons or have a great game. My point is, it's still possible to have some success with a bad line. Even as bad as the one the 49ers have now. It's not impossible. If you feel different then whatever.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 10:20 PM
Not really. I understood what you had to say. I just disagreed with it. We need upgrades at a lot of positions and quarterback is one of them. I felt this way before Harbaugh was even hired.

All in all it doesn't matter. Alex is gone in a year and someone else will be under center even if our offensive line is to blame. The 49ers are too inexperienced/don't have enough good players on offense to make any kind of playoff push even in the NFC West. Smith's fate is sealed unless he magically turns into Peyton Manning and the offensive line magically starts to play top notch.

I don't know if you feel I'm being a Smith apologist. I'm not. I haven't concluded whether Smith has any ability in Harbaugh's offense. He hasn't even had an opportunity to prove INability.

I don't know how you can argue that ANY NFL QB could show anything when they're being crushed in 5 of 8 dropbacks.

Aaron Rodgers would've looked like crap.
Tom Brady would've looked like crap.
Peyton manning wouldv'e looked like crap.
Andrew Luck would've looked like crap.

If Smith is one-and-done (as you believe) then you've already won. The LINE needs fixed.

phlysac
08-28-2011, 10:21 PM
Oh I completely disagree here then. I'm watching the 49ers game now. And there have been a couple instances where the pocket was clean. It was minimal, but they were there. It's not the worst pocket I've ever seen. And there have been quarterbacks with just as bad of a line that have still put up good to great seasons or have a great game. My point is, it's still possible to have some success with a bad line. Even as bad as the one the 49ers have now. It's not impossible. If you feel different then whatever.

Be specific...

He dropped back 8 times.

Hit 5 times (no pocket)
6. Ball deflected (pocket collapsed)
7. Hit Ginn on a slant
8. Rolled out and hit Morgan.

Now where did you see your examples, again?

phlysac
08-28-2011, 10:48 PM
Granted this is only an example of three of his 8 drop backs... it's a micro-cosm.

He's hit in under 2 full seconds on two and less than 3 on the other. Even from the shotgun. It's always been said a QB needs to get rid of the ball in 4 seconds, not 2 or 3.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7615/smith01.jpg
Snap at 1:20

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1594/smith02.jpg
Wrapped up at 1:22

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1281/smith03.jpg
Snap at 1:29

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/192/smith04.jpg
Wrapped up at 1:31

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/538/smith05.jpg
Snap at 2:16

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7848/smith06.jpg
Steps into a throw (No Pocket) Hit at 2:19


Here's the full highlight clip...

kMqVTixKIc4

Ness
08-28-2011, 11:17 PM
I don't know if you feel I'm being a Smith apologist. I'm not. I haven't concluded whether Smith has any ability in Harbaugh's offense. He hasn't even had an opportunity to prove INability.

I don't know how you can argue that ANY NFL QB could show anything when they're being crushed in 5 of 8 dropbacks.

Aaron Rodgers would've looked like crap.
Tom Brady would've looked like crap.
Peyton manning wouldv'e looked like crap.
Andrew Luck would've looked like crap.

If Smith is one-and-done (as you believe) then you've already won. The LINE needs fixed.

Oh I'm saying despite the line, Smith looks terrible. He should have been off the team years ago. It's beyond "one and done".

Ness
08-28-2011, 11:18 PM
Granted this is only an example of three of his 8 drop backs... it's a micro-cosm.

He's hit in under 2 full seconds on two and less than 3 on the other. Even from the shotgun. It's always been said a QB needs to get rid of the ball in 4 seconds, not 2 or 3.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7615/smith01.jpg
Snap at 1:20

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1594/smith02.jpg
Wrapped up at 1:22

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1281/smith03.jpg
Snap at 1:29

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/192/smith04.jpg
Wrapped up at 1:31

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/538/smith05.jpg
Snap at 2:16

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7848/smith06.jpg
Steps into a throw (No Pocket) Hit at 2:19


Here's the full highlight clip...

kMqVTixKIc4

It's okay. I have the entire game in HD on my computer.. Regardless, using this doesn't really tell much. It goes beyond just seconds. Football gets down to nanoseconds. If you have a gif of each of his dropbacks it would be more helpful. Not sure what you are trying to prove though. I already acknowledged that the pocket isn't that great, but it doesn't change my opinion that Smith is an average to terrible quarterback. I felt this way before the preseason began, or rather before Harbaugh was hired. He's just not a good player. Doesn't matter what offense he's thrust into. His instincts and accuracy aren't very good compared to a lot of the better quarterbacks in this league. How many big games has he had in his seven year career? Even if we have a terrible offensive line you can believe that a change at quarterback wouldn't matter, but I'll take my chances with Luck if the 49ers had a shot to select him. I know you think it wouldn't possibly make a difference at all though. They'd be ******** not to pick him. The offensive line can be fixed through other means, quarterbacks that are considered the best prospect since Manning entered the league don't come by every year.

Ness
08-28-2011, 11:41 PM
Be specific...

He dropped back 8 times.

Hit 5 times (no pocket)
6. Ball deflected (pocket collapsed)
7. Hit Ginn on a slant
8. Rolled out and hit Morgan.

Now where did you see your examples, again?

By the way the pocket didn't "collapse" when Smith threw the ball that was batted at the LOS.

http://i.imgur.com/NMmgo.jpg

Ness
08-28-2011, 11:43 PM
By the way not a fan of what Harbaugh was trying to do. The season opener is two weeks away. I thought Alex Smith was supposed to be the starter? Why did he want to get Kapernick some reps against the first string defense? Most of the starting positions should be practically wrapped up by this point. Especially if you want to build cohesion with your starting unit...I just get the logic in that. I agreed with Tim Ryan's criticism. You have to play your starters sooner or later for an extended period. This was a good opportunity to do just that.

Victory X
08-29-2011, 01:08 AM
By the way not a fan of what Harbaugh was trying to do. The season opener is two weeks away. I thought Alex Smith was supposed to be the starter? Why did he want to get Kapernick some reps against the first string defense? Most of the starting positions should be practically wrapped up by this point. Especially if you want to build cohesion with your starting unit...I just get the logic in that. I agreed with Tim Ryan's criticism. You have to play your starters sooner or later for an extended period. This was a good opportunity to do just that.

Lmao this may be one of the stupidest things i've ever read on the internet.

http://i.imgur.com/Oirx2.png

Ness
08-29-2011, 02:08 AM
Lmao this may be one of the stupidest things i've ever read on the internet.

http://i.imgur.com/Oirx2.png

And this is probably one of the dumbest responses.

Nice attempt to take something I said out of context and try to make a hit and run comment with it.

Ness
08-29-2011, 02:31 AM
It's really demoralizing the amount of high draft picks that were put into this offensive line and it just sucks on all levels it seems. Too bad we couldn't keep Baas for center. Looks like we really downgraded. I'm starting to wonder if it's a coaching problem and/or just talent problem. Staley seems like he's been going downhill the last couple of seasons. He looked really promising in his rookie year. Anthony Davis seems like he shouldn't have been a first rounder at all. Iupati looks promising, but he's still blowing assignments. Rachal is awful period. I'm praying that the majority of these issues can get hammered out with more experienced. They seemed decent against Oakland, so maybe there is some hope left for this group.

binary
08-29-2011, 03:29 AM
It's really demoralizing the amount of high draft picks that were put into this offensive line and it just sucks on all levels it seems. Too bad we couldn't keep Baas for center. Looks like we really downgraded. I'm starting to wonder if it's a coaching problem and/or just talent problem. Staley seems like he's been going downhill the last couple of seasons. He looked really promising in his rookie year. Anthony Davis seems like he shouldn't have been a first rounder at all. Iupati looks promising, but he's still blowing assignments. Rachal is awful period. I'm praying that the majority of these issues can get hammered out with more experienced. They seemed decent against Oakland, so maybe there is some hope left for this group.

I actually thought the Oline was getting used to playing in a toned down, quick-hitting Martz system..when we got rid of that system it made everyone regress terribly. I think the system changes have taken their toll on everyone, not just the QBs.

Madirishman
08-29-2011, 10:35 AM
Staley would do better if they put him back at RT, with the team finding a LT to anchor the line. Rachal should have stayed in school another year but wanted to get a paycheck to help his family. You can't argue with that, that was his top priority and another year of college may have helped his development/maturity. He had "upside" and is a decent mauler in the running game, but gets killed in pass pro too often. Iupati should still improve and I believe will turn into a very good LG. I'm concerned about Davis but he does have youth on his side, so we shouldn't all panic...yet. Losing Baas hurt, though I don't know if he was worth the Top 3 Center money he got paid to go to the Giants. Maybe he was.

Verloren
08-29-2011, 11:05 AM
If Smith is getting that battered when waiting for his receivers to complete intermediate/deep routes, maybe we'll see him in the 'gun on short routes to get some time...

binary
08-29-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm almost at the point where i want to clean house on the Ol and QB, just start over. I'm just getting tired of watching these bums, just exhausted...crappy. It was crappy seeing Harbaugh so dejected too, it was pretty obvious he was confused at how thoroughly they got dominated.

hawkeye123
08-29-2011, 12:31 PM
I'll reserve my judgement on the O-Line until we play Seattle Week 1.

phlysac
08-29-2011, 03:28 PM
By the way the pocket didn't "collapse" when Smith threw the ball that was batted at the LOS.

http://i.imgur.com/NMmgo.jpg

I understand your point with this pic as he does have space. He's not "working through thrash. However, it is hard for to believe that Snyder's assignment was to drop 5 yards behind the LOS.

And it's a cluster---- on the left side as well. Batted passes happen, but they happen alot easier when the DL gets a push upfield.

phlysac
08-29-2011, 03:35 PM
Not sure what you are trying to prove though. I already acknowledged that the pocket isn't that great, but it doesn't change my opinion that Smith is an average to terrible quarterback.

I'm trying to make MY point, not disprove yours. I've never argued Smith's ability in this thread, yet you keep reminding us you dislike him.

My point is that if you put the all-time greatest QB in NFL history behind the line that showed up on Saturday, they wouldn't have had success. This is a gameday thread, not a career reaction thread.

Your opinion of Smith could very well be spot-on this season. However, that doesn't alter my opinion that you cannot judge his performance based upon the time he was given to throw on Saturday.

Ness
08-29-2011, 05:46 PM
I understand your point with this pic as he does have space. He's not "working through thrash. However, it is hard for to believe that Snyder's assignment was to drop 5 yards behind the LOS.

And it's a cluster---- on the left side as well. Batted passes happen, but they happen alot easier when the DL gets a push upfield.
I'm just saying the pocket didn't collapse on that play like you believed it did. Smith had time to make the throw and he did. He just got it batted down.

Ness
08-29-2011, 05:49 PM
I'm trying to make MY point, not disprove yours. I've never argued Smith's ability in this thread, yet you keep reminding us you dislike him.

My point is that if you put the all-time greatest QB in NFL history behind the line that showed up on Saturday, they wouldn't have had success. This is a gameday thread, not a career reaction thread.

Your opinion of Smith could very well be spot-on this season. However, that doesn't alter my opinion that you cannot judge his performance based upon the time he was given to throw on Saturday.
Well it's kind of difficult not to talk about Smith and how I feel about his play when we're discussing that I believe someone like Andrew Luck would be a better option regardless of our line's issues. Him being the quarterback is the main reason why I believe Luck would be an upgrade. In general, you can still have a better option behind center even if the line is terrible. We've seen it time and time again with a lot of quarterbacks that have been productive. You obviously disagree and think this is impossible so I guess this is where it ends.

Ness
08-29-2011, 05:51 PM
I'll reserve my judgement on the O-Line until we play Seattle Week 1.
Seattle won't be that good of a test in my opinion. If we want to compete, we're going to have to at least do well in one on ones against good D-lines and teams with potentially winning records.

phlysac
08-29-2011, 06:56 PM
We've seen it time and time again with a lot of quarterbacks that have been productive. You obviously disagree and think this is impossible so I guess this is where it ends.

Yes, I guess it does because...

You believe you've seen it time and time again where QBs succeed when getting hit in under 3 seconds.

I believe no QB has ever succeeded when getting hit in under 3 seconds.


Agree to disagree, I guess.

YAYareaRB
08-29-2011, 07:44 PM
Oh I'm saying despite the line, Smith looks terrible. He should have been off the team years ago. It's beyond "one and done".

anyone would look terrible behind this line

Ness
08-29-2011, 08:58 PM
Yes, I guess it does because...

You believe you've seen it time and time again where QBs succeed when getting hit in under 3 seconds.

I believe no QB has ever succeeded when getting hit in under 3 seconds.


Agree to disagree, I guess.

Perhaps your clocked analysis just isn't correct on every single play. I already felt Smith wasn't a good player before we had this bad a line, so it doesn't really matter anyways. Even if the line magically improved, I feel Smith doesn't have the natural instincts a lot of the better quarterbacks in the league possess and he'll either make the wrong decision at the most crucial times or win when it matters least. But yes, agree to disagree.

Goon61
08-29-2011, 10:08 PM
It is hard for me to believe Staley has become such a bad left tackle.
Sometimes I think Smith just does a bad job of moving around in the pocket, stepping up and out of the way of the DE's. Not saying it happens all the time but adding that on top of when the line actually gets beat and it is a disaster.

Certainly the 49ers line is not the best in the league, but I highly doubt it is as bad as this preseason has made it look.

Ness
08-29-2011, 11:58 PM
It is hard for me to believe Staley has become such a bad left tackle.
Sometimes I think Smith just does a bad job of moving around in the pocket, stepping up and out of the way of the DE's. Not saying it happens all the time but adding that on top of when the line actually gets beat and it is a disaster.

Certainly the 49ers line is not the best in the league, but I highly doubt it is as bad as this preseason has made it look.

The line isn't going to play this bad once the season starts game after game. I'd be very surprised at that. It may be bad, but I don't think it will be as bad as what we've seen against the Raiders and Saints. At least not consistently. The good news is that these players know they have to focus and get better at protecting the quarterback.

Smith does do a bad job of moving around in the pocket and making a decision quick enough even in years past when protection was decent in games. That's just how he is unfortunately. And yes it is true that some offensive lines can look worse than they seem because of the quarterback. That's not the case so far as the line is just plain bad.

binary
08-30-2011, 04:12 AM
Didn't Alex have one of the higher ratings in the league when he was given more than 2-3 seconds? I thought Sando had a blog about that. Alex doesn't worry me when he has time, he worries me when he doesn't..I think in that same blog he had the worst rating when given less than 3 seconds...the guy can't improvise for crap....and behind this oline, he's going to have to.

I'm starting to think that maybe our lines just don't play well for a QB like Alex, maybe he's just too nice of a guy. It would be easy if the solution was that simple..but then again, the line nearly got Shaun Hill killed as well vs ATL and Houston, so much so that he couldn't buy a first down. Basically, we need a miracle or a savior.

Brent
08-30-2011, 06:20 AM
or, you know, they're just not that good. there seems to be a penchant for overrating talent on the niners.