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Modano
03-25-2007, 02:19 PM
I want your opinion on Roy, arguable the most known cowboys' player.
Some people (including the media) say he's the most ovverated player in the game, but a part of us really loves him.
I really like the guy, and I think that he's a true playmaker. Last year he started the season very well. He was playing good in coverage too, no one could run past him and he was turning into a ball hawk. After the Eagles game everyone was putting his finger against him, but all those big plays were Watkins' fault, as Bill said in his conference after the game.
Then after mid season he was playing way worse. I don't know why, maybe because we couldn't get pressure on the QB or maybe because he was asked to play cover 2. Do you remember when Woody was still playing? Roy was amazing, simply amazing.
I know that someone can say that the role of safety is to cover the deep ball, and if he can't do that he can't play safety, but I don't really agree with them. With a good FS along him, Roy is a great player and he makes plays after plays.
Do you remember the crucial game against Indy? The game was tied, Indy had a first and 10 on the 11. 2 & 6, Roy came all across the line and tackled Addai for a two yards loss. Then on third down, he bumped Clark and came with a huge interception. Later he gave up a TD to Clark, but how many safeties could match one on one with Dallas Clark with ease?
In my opinion, Roy has his liabilities, but he brings those sort of plays that a great defense need. I agree that his somehow ovverated, but i would never bench him, is a special player. He needs the right situation to play effectively.
Which are your thoughts?

Burns336
03-25-2007, 02:28 PM
He's definately a cowboys favorite. I think most of us love Roy, we were just upset with this last year. I think roy was put under a microscrope this last year and people really started to see that he does have some problems in coverage. Its really up to him to do something in the off-season to get himself ready to play at a higher level though. He needs improvment and it seemed like all of the criticism really got to his head last season. I dont even remember a big hit from roy last year. Hopefully he dropped a couple lbs and is allowed to play in the box this year since thats where his strengths are.

jetBLACK08
03-25-2007, 02:33 PM
I really like this guy. He is a definite playmaker. After midseason last year, WE were forced to use him as a center fielder in the zone. Our LBers were to ***** to jam in WR or TE coming off the line. I blame Zimmer for this. OUR LBers did change the TE/Wrs direction, all they did was maybe touch them, this led to Williams being vulnerable. Williams is great if he plays where he needs to play, near the LOS.

HEISMANHERSCHEL
03-25-2007, 02:56 PM
I have faught about this with everybody I work with. HE IS A PLAYMAKER. Champ Bailey gets smoked when there is no pressure on the quarterback. I don't think he is the best safety, but I would not trade him for many. And there is no way to calculate how many passes have been dropped because wide receivers know he is back there.

If we get a consistent pass rush this year, he WILL make plays. If we don't, he will probably get smoked.

When the Cowboys drafted Roy Williams, no one thought, "This guy is really gonna cover the deep ball great!" We all thought, "Someone is fixing to get lit up!" And I think he has lit plenty of people up.

Mark my words, no pass rush, they will all get smoked. Good pass rush, and we will have ourselves multiple pro bowl defensive backs.

My two cents.

D-Unit
03-25-2007, 04:39 PM
Glad he's on our team. I'll tell you that! Love the guy and would rather have him than a lot of other safeties out there. One of the few actual PLAYMAKERS on our team.

JJJ888
03-25-2007, 08:20 PM
I am one of the guys who believe Roy Williams is overrated by most Cowboys fans, but underrated by most of the media who believe he is overrated...in other words, Williams is a very good safety who is extremely important to the Cowboys as they are now. Sure he has some weaknesses in coverage, but he also makes a ton of plays, both in coverage and in run support. In fact, I think he might have the best hands on the defense, and seems to come up with big picks when we need them most.

Macarthur
03-25-2007, 08:53 PM
Roy will be fine. I think much of the problem last year was scheme. Wade will fix that immediately.

Go Cowboys
03-25-2007, 08:55 PM
The media hates him because the media has to make some cowboys player look bad....
With that said it seemed to me that he was more comfortable when he had Woodson beside him. I dont think he had enough time to learn from Woody about the coverages the way Woody could play in them.
With that said he hasn't had one guy to work with back there in a long time. How many guys have started opposite of him? I'll names the ones I can think of: Tony Dixon, Lynn Scott, Tony Parrish, Pat Watkins, Keith Davis and there is one more I can't think of at the time.
What I am mean is he is a great player, but he has holes in his game. Those holes are mainly coverage or speed lately since he has gained weight.
I think with the addition of Hamlin it will make things even worse, he only signed him for one year. What happens next year? Another guy, Watkins, re-sign Hamlin? What I mean is it is hard enough in this league to have chemistry with teammates and that is what Woody and Roy had. Since then we have gone through at least five guys next to him and none have succeeded but maybe that is because we have not allowed for the chemistry we have seen a guy make mistakes and we replace him.
You have to give guys time to gel. I know I have gotten off the topic of what I think of Williams, but I will finish up typing with this final line.
Watkins is the guy we should have play next to him for next year instead of rotating guys like crazy. We need chemistry with Roy and we have gone through too many guys in 2 years to give him someone he is comfortable playing with which is something we need to do.

Staubach12
03-25-2007, 09:40 PM
If Roy can play on the level he played at the beginning of last year all season, we'll have no problems. Otherwise... he'd better start improving.

robert_in_bigd
03-25-2007, 10:13 PM
If Roy can not cover a TE he has no business playing SS. He will be more effective at FS in either Cover 0 or Cover 1. Otherwise he is a liability. Maybe he can lose some weight and improve technique and prove me wrong.

LonghornsLegend
03-26-2007, 02:09 AM
we tend to make him do things oklahoma never asked him to do, when he's used properly at what he does best, he is probably one of the best in the game....


alot of safeties who are pro bowlers have weakness, roy cant line up and cover shockey man to man, but we shouldnt be asking him to either, he's our SS trying to cover off man a TE who can run like a WR...then everyone calls him over rated when he gets broken down in coverage, i dont blame all those long plays on him....i really think with good FS play he will come into his own like before, and find a way to make a play when we need it...


he's always done this, his whole career...we just need to put him in better situations to do it, those that are familiar know how he was used in college, and when we had darren woodson, he was asked to do more last year, and it hurt him and it showed on the field, he struggled....hopefully wade's scheme and hamlin get us back on track

LonghornsLegend
03-26-2007, 02:13 AM
If Roy can not cover a TE he has no business playing SS. He will be more effective at FS in either Cover 0 or Cover 1. Otherwise he is a liability. Maybe he can lose some weight and improve technique and prove me wrong.

id like a list of SS in the league that can cover shockey, winslow, or gonzalez, man to man, off the line with no bump, with the TE standing up....


and please lets be realistic, thats an advantage for the offense, disadvantage defense every time...you should not be asking your SS to do this, especially with the TE releasing freely, athletic TE's will run circles around SS these days....


if they are athletic and fast enough, to run routes on DB's and manage to get open, which shockey and winslow did all season, why would it make sense for us to get on roy when he gets beat by shockey? ive seen shockey beat Corners, Strong safeties and Free safeties, especially with no bump from any LB, thats not what you traditionally want to ask your SS to do, i dont knoow too many teams that feel comfortable with that matchup, thus the word mis-match should be properly used when you see that on field....

mtmock
03-26-2007, 02:47 PM
If Roy can not cover a TE he has no business playing SS. He will be more effective at FS in either Cover 0 or Cover 1. Otherwise he is a liability. Maybe he can lose some weight and improve technique and prove me wrong.

you dont get it SS dont need to COVER! iv'e explained it to you many times along with others he plays the run...in our 3-4 it is the responsibility of one of the lb's to caover the tight end....bottom line ROY is a GREAT SS...a TERRIBLE FS...FS have to cover like corner backs

D-Unit
03-26-2007, 03:04 PM
you dont get it SS dont need to COVER! iv'e explained it to you many times along with others he plays the run...in our 3-4 it is the responsibility of one of the lb's to caover the tight end....bottom line ROY is a GREAT SS...a TERRIBLE FS...FS have to cover like corner backs
Actually it depends on the defensive play call. It could be either or it could be both in one play. So stop arguing who's right. I'm right. :D

mtmock
03-26-2007, 03:16 PM
Actually it depends on the defensive play call. It could be either or it could be both in one play. So stop arguing who's right. I'm right. :D

you only think youre right...ur wrong...period.

mtmock
03-26-2007, 03:21 PM
heres the definitions off football 101:
Strong Safety: Like the free safety, the strong safety also plays deep, but he usually lines up on the same side as the tight end and has more responsibility in the run defense. A strong safety usually is bigger and more physical than a free safety.

Free Safety:A defensive player who lines up deepest in the secondary. He defends the deep middle of the field and seldom has man-to-man responsibilities.
and we are talking about responsibilities of the two positions on a regular basis D-Unit, not on a certain call stupid

D-Unit
03-26-2007, 03:32 PM
heres the definitions off football 101:
Strong Safety: Like the free safety, the strong safety also plays deep, but he usually lines up on the same side as the tight end and has more responsibility in the run defense. A strong safety usually is bigger and more physical than a free safety.

Free Safety:A defensive player who lines up deepest in the secondary. He defends the deep middle of the field and seldom has man-to-man responsibilities.
and we are talking about responsibilities of the two positions on a regular basis D-Unit, not on a certain call stupid
Football 101? LOL. I must've missed that course in college. I don't know what you're referring to.

If you wanna cookie cut the job description of the SS in a couple of sentences to make yourself sound right according to Football 101, that's fine. It's still not right.

..and you simply cannot generalize the job of covering the TE to one guy.

Robert is saying how it's the job of the SS to cover the TE... You're saying it's the job of the LB. I'm saying, it could be either or both depending on the defensive play call. I'm right.

"responsibilities of the two positions on a regular basis D-Unit, not on a certain call stupid"???
So wait. Are you telling me that their responsibilities don't depend on the play call? Who's calling who stupid?

Ward
03-26-2007, 03:48 PM
Also it should be noted that on many defenses in the NFL, the definitions are different. Ed Reed played (maybe still plays, not sure) the SS position in Baltimore's D. He's far from the same kind of player as Roy. You can't base everything you know about what a player should be doing off of tradition or common knowledge. His role in OUR defense is what matters.

robert_in_bigd
03-26-2007, 04:06 PM
Let me be clear, I am not saying Roy is a perfect "center fielder." But for a minute let us forget titles.

I am saying he is a better centerfielder who freelances near the line then a classic "Cover Safety" with multiple responsibilities in the pass defense scheme. The classic "cover safety" can depending on scheme line up man or line up zone. No problem.... like Woodson.

As said by other, it all depends how you play the D. I just think to get the best of Roy take away his coverage responsibilities and let him freelance. That to me is a "Free" Safety in our system but I defer to more knowledgable football junkies.

JJJ888
03-26-2007, 08:45 PM
heres the definitions off football 101:
Strong Safety: Like the free safety, the strong safety also plays deep, but he usually lines up on the same side as the tight end and has more responsibility in the run defense. A strong safety usually is bigger and more physical than a free safety.

Free Safety:A defensive player who lines up deepest in the secondary. He defends the deep middle of the field and seldom has man-to-man responsibilities.
and we are talking about responsibilities of the two positions on a regular basis D-Unit, not on a certain call stupid

To me, that quote actually supports D-Unit's point more than yours...a strong safety is responsible for coverage a great deal of the time, but he is more influential in run support than the free safety. It doesn't mean that the free safety is always responsible for coverage; for instance, if the free safety blitzes, then the strong safety is certainly responsible for deep patrol.

HEISMANHERSCHEL
03-27-2007, 03:07 AM
DUDE, COME ON!!!!!!!!!!

D-Unit, Ward and JJJ888. No one can even argue this point. No defense in the NFL has the same position perform the same job every play. That is too predictable.

At any given point, anyone from a defensive end to a cornerback might be responsible for the area a tight end is in!!!

HEISMANHERSCHEL
03-27-2007, 06:24 AM
To make sure that didn't sound confusing, what I meant to say was D-Unit, Ward and JJJ888 are correct.

I forgot to finish my second sentence. I meant to say those three were correct.

All of the TE's mentioned in this discussion are capable of beating a cornerback on any given play, much less a lb or a safety. That is why assignments change for each player on each play.

robert_in_bigd
04-06-2007, 02:02 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=mosley_matt&id=2827064

Funny (and depressing) article by Mosley for a variety of reasons one of which is the positive spin to Roy being a bust but if you read between the lines ....

1) It admits Roy Williams basically sucks as a true SS
2) It admits the 3-4 will need to schemed around a flawed player
3) It admits Roy is fat
4) It admits Roy was brought in to be "an extra linebacker" in a 4-3
5) It tries to place the blame (without names) of Roy's failures on the scheme.
6) It admits Jerry blew too much money (again) on one of his "boys"

"Honey, I hired a lawyer but he doesn't do contracts!" <NICE>

Worst yet is it seems Larry Lacewell is back at the Ranch ruining more draft boards with Jerry.

Modano
04-06-2007, 02:19 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=mosley_matt&id=2827064

Funny (and depressing) article by Mosley for a variety of reasons one of which is the positive spin to Roy being a bust but if you read between the lines ....

1) It admits Roy Williams basically sucks as a true SS
2) It admits the 3-4 will need to schemed around a flawed player
3) It admits Roy is fat
4) It admits Roy was brought in to be "an extra linebacker" in a 4-3
5) It tries to place the blame (without names) of Roy's failures on the scheme.
6) It admits Jerry blew too much money (again) on one of his "boys"

"Honey, I hired a lawyer but he doesn't do contracts!" <NICE>

Worst yet is it seems Larry Lacewell is back at the Ranch ruining more draft boards with Jerry.

Nope, you're reading what do you want to read, between the lines or not, robert (but I guess that you were former known as cowboysforever).

This one, is a great point about the article above:

http://theboysblog.com/2007/04/06/whither-roy-williams/

robert_in_bigd
04-06-2007, 02:32 PM
Nope, you're reading what do you want to read, between the lines or not, robert (but I guess that you were former known as cowboysforever).

This one, is a great point about the article above:

http://theboysblog.com/2007/04/06/whither-roy-williams/

OK, Modano, I am not one to care too much either way about who the players is or where he is drafted. I proposed Roy is a FS role so that he can play with greater freedom in the scheme. That is a SS has more coverage responsibility of the TE .... so accepting this definition ....

The Mosley article is positive spin on negative facts. That article reads -- He is popular. We want him to succeeed. To date, however, he has been a bust in comparison to other safeties of note. We are trying to redesign the D to get more from him. We hope for the best.

I can't see how you can read it any other way. But folks here in town are very passionate about Roy for whatever reason.

OT: I think that is the second time you referenced my post to another in order to discredit something I wrote. Please address the points I make in context to my words. Not others. Thanks.

robert_in_bigd
04-06-2007, 02:34 PM
Also, say what you will but Plaxico Burress (and idiot but a truth teller) pretty much called Roy Williams a 250lbs ankle tackler for a reason.

fryman
04-06-2007, 04:58 PM
Theres a good article bout the Cowboys conditioning program up on dallascowboys.com right now. It talks a little about what they want to do with Roy.

Also some some good info. on Thompson in there.

Achilles33
04-06-2007, 10:34 PM
It says they are going to "lean him up". Sweet.

bigbluedefense
04-07-2007, 09:19 PM
I noticed alot of posters who's opinions Im curious to hear are avoiding this thread. I will do the same.

*lurks in the background*

Number 10
04-07-2007, 09:23 PM
Average safety.

Not as terrible as some will say, but not as great as some others say. I know two things when I watch the Giants and Cowboys-

1-I hate seeing him about to make a tackle or hit with a full head of steam

2-I love seeing him being the cover man on Shockey

Burns336
04-07-2007, 10:13 PM
i love roy, and i want him to succeed, but i am discouraged that he needs someone to come in and "guide" the secondary in order for him to be great. He shouldn't need a darren woodson or an above average guy like Ken Hamlin to tell him how to cover. He's in jeopardy of being labeled as overrated for his entire career if he does not turn things around this year. So i hope he comes out with a bang, steps up, and does what he needs to do to live up to his "hype".

My first 2 years with roy were great, especially with woody and now all i can think about it this......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=978oZcT4jmc

check it out

Achilles33
04-08-2007, 08:56 AM
Plaxico Burress shouldn't be calling anyone any names about being afraid of contact. Last time I checked, last season, the second Cowboys vs. Giants game, Aaron Glenn had one hand on him, and h e could have walked right through it easily if he wanted, but he dropped because Roy Williams was about to jack him up. I mean seriously, glenn had liek a finger on him, it was like a 1 pound wait on your waist, and he dropped because he didn't want to get by Roy.

He shouldn't be calling anyone names. That wuss, who looks like a retarted lizard, who is overrated as all hell. Average WR, nothing better. Newman can jump higher than him, so he gets fustrated when he plays because he can't get any jump balls on us. :P

bigbluedefense
04-08-2007, 09:19 AM
Plaxico Burress shouldn't be calling anyone any names about being afraid of contact. Last time I checked, last season, the second Cowboys vs. Giants game, Aaron Glenn had one hand on him, and he could have walked right through it easily if he wanted, but he dropped because Roy Williams was about to jack him up. I mean seriously, glenn had liek a finger on him, it was like a 1 pound wait on your waist, and he dropped because he didn't want to get by Roy.

He shouldn't be calling anyone names. That wuss, who looks like a retarted lizard, who is overrated as all hell. Average WR, nothing better. Newman can jump higher than him, so he gets fustrated when he plays because he can't get any jump balls on us. :P

How does Plaxico Burress have anything to do with this conversation?

And yes, he is overrated. Im one of the few Giants fans that agree with that statement. Funny thing is, whenever people want to attack Eli, one of their main arguments is that Eli just "lobs it up" to Burress, even though Burress had the least amount of receptions for our team when Toomer was healthy and Shockey led the team in receptions for the season. Funny how that works.

And no, he's caught plenty of jump balls against Dallas. Not when Newman was on him no, but he's still caught TDs against you guys.

*continues to lurk in background*

Number 10
04-08-2007, 12:57 PM
Plaxico Burress shouldn't be calling anyone any names about being afraid of contact. Last time I checked, last season, the second Cowboys vs. Giants game, Aaron Glenn had one hand on him, and h e could have walked right through it easily if he wanted, but he dropped because Roy Williams was about to jack him up. I mean seriously, glenn had liek a finger on him, it was like a 1 pound wait on your waist, and he dropped because he didn't want to get by Roy.

He shouldn't be calling anyone names. That wuss, who looks like a retarted lizard, who is overrated as all hell. Average WR, nothing better. Newman can jump higher than him, so he gets fustrated when he plays because he can't get any jump balls on us. :P

Expected post of a Cowboys fan.

Burns336
04-08-2007, 02:01 PM
anyone check out that video i posted above? it pretty much sums up the problems roy has been having through a written explination followed by video examples. Im no "football genius" in the sense of how all the schemes work and things like that so its good for the above average fan like i think most people are on here.

Achilles33
04-08-2007, 06:56 PM
How does Plaxico Burress have anything to do with this conversation?

And yes, he is overrated. Im one of the few Giants fans that agree with that statement. Funny thing is, whenever people want to attack Eli, one of their main arguments is that Eli just "lobs it up" to Burress, even though Burress had the least amount of receptions for our team when Toomer was healthy and Shockey led the team in receptions for the season. Funny how that works.

And no, he's caught plenty of jump balls against Dallas. Not when Newman was on him no, but he's still caught TDs against you guys.

*continues to lurk in background*

I meant when Newman was on him. Newman can get a whole hand over Plax on a jump ball. He has a 41" vert.

jonbrodo17
04-08-2007, 07:51 PM
i am a diehard eagles fan so i will try to be as unbiased as I can.

Roy Williams makes plays for your team, he hits hard over the middle and creates fumbles when going up against the run. But as you all know (and i love it) that guy can't cover for his life, and some people will say "well he got 4 ints." they were presents and every1 knows it. I obviously don't like him but he makes plays for you guys and is a solid player. And o yea TO sucks

JJJ888
04-08-2007, 10:18 PM
i am a diehard eagles fan so i will try to be as unbiased as I can.

Roy Williams makes plays for your team, he hits hard over the middle and creates fumbles when going up against the run. But as you all know (and i love it) that guy can't cover for his life, and some people will say "well he got 4 ints." they were presents and every1 knows it. I obviously don't like him but he makes plays for you guys and is a solid player. And o yea TO sucks

Roy's interceptions actually weren't presents...most of the interceptions he had this season were good plays. I said it earlier, Roy might have the best hands on the defensive side of the ball. There are at least 2 specific interceptions he had this year that were very nice plays. When Roy is in the right position, he can make plays on the ball; the problem is, he is frequently not in the right position. But there's no way that you can say that he just gets lucky and the ball comes to him.

HEISMANHERSCHEL
04-09-2007, 03:02 AM
Roy will be fine. If you want to place blame on someone, I think you start with the pass rush. Our second leading sack man got 4 1/2 and missed a lot of games.

With a pass rush, Roy will be better. With no pass rush, all of our defensive backs will get beat.

How many safeties would you trade him for, straight up? There are some, but I don't think the list is long. I like having him on our team.

Phrost
04-09-2007, 03:08 AM
The amount of intelligence in this thread is unparalleled.

Achilles33
04-09-2007, 07:08 AM
That goes to show you why INT's mean nothing. They don't determine how good you are in coverage at all.

Either way, the Cowboys are still going to own the eagles. We have the NFC East wrapped up this year.