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MI_Buckeye
10-11-2011, 09:11 PM
I love this site, but one thing has been bothering me forever. Why aren't juniors and draft eligible sophomores included in the rankings and the hot lists?

Even ESPN has caught up on this one. I know that, for the most part, Scott and Shane are probably more well-versed on the seniors, because they evaluate them over the summer, knowing they will be a part of the next draft, but it is very clear that any analysis that blows off underclassmen is very incomplete.

Every other draft site has comprehensive coverage of the top underclassmen, and some even go further projecting value in future drafts. I would enjoy the rankings, blogs and hot lists much more if they included underclassmen.

tjsunstein
10-11-2011, 09:19 PM
I'd like to see more underclassmen as well but they have a system that seems to be working for them. Not too often do I check the site for rankings though, mostly as a reference.

Scott Wright
10-11-2011, 09:34 PM
The reasoning is basically two-fold:

1) It's tough enough to assess hundreds upon hundreds of seniors during the season. There just aren't enough hours in the day to also properly evaluate all of the underclassmen that could potentially come out as well. It makes more sense to factor them in when they actually declare.

2) Just like NFL teams, I only give underclassmen a cursory glance during the season. A player may seem like a potential early rounder at first glance, but that can change with an in-depth examination and vise versa. I would hate for a player to make a life decision and go pro based on my rankings that would be somewhat superficial during the season.

bored of education
10-11-2011, 09:37 PM
Who knows who is declaring until he officially declares or you have legit sources that person wants to declare.

Caulibflower
10-11-2011, 10:33 PM
Perhaps just a really simple ranking system? Or not even a "ranking" system necessarily, but even just a few underclassmen at each position who are candidates to go pro early would be really nice. Maybe something that you could have at the bottom of the ranking lists. Just a very exclusive "Underclassmen to watch" box.

Scott Wright
10-11-2011, 11:52 PM
Perhaps just a really simple ranking system? Or not even a "ranking" system necessarily, but even just a few underclassmen at each position who are candidates to go pro early would be really nice. Maybe something that you could have at the bottom of the ranking lists. Just a very exclusive "Underclassmen to watch" box.

Well, I kind of do that by including underclassmen in the mock draft.

Caulibflower
10-12-2011, 12:32 AM
Well, maybe that could be the criteria for being included in the rankings? If they make your early mocks, throw 'em in the overall rankings? It'd only be a couple guys, most likely, but it'd be the first and second rounders most people are interested in anyways. If you include them in the draft, why not the rankings? I suppose it just seems like it'd be easy to me, because you'd have to have already ranked them when you projected a draft slot.

MI_Buckeye
10-12-2011, 01:17 AM
I agree with Calubflower 100 percent. We pretty much already know a great deal about the juniors likely to go in the first couple rounds. It's not like we're asking for breakdowns of the Zane Parrs of the world.

Anyways, the evaluation process really kicks into full gear for these guys during their sophomore seasons. I'm pretty sure BLESTO has a ton of information on underclassmen in all the big programs.

Scott Wright
10-12-2011, 02:53 AM
Anyways, the evaluation process really kicks into full gear for these guys during their sophomore seasons. I'm pretty sure BLESTO has a ton of information on underclassmen in all the big programs.

You'd be surprised...

I am not saying teams are completely clueless about underclassmen, but they are in many ways an afterthought this time of the year. There is enough work to be done with the seniors. Once it becomes clear that certain guys are going to declare late in the season then scouts obviously begin to dig deeper, but at this point it's just cursory information. In fact, places like National and BLESTO will begin looking at next year's seniors in earnest in the spring during pro day's.

Scott Wright
10-12-2011, 02:56 AM
One other reason why I don't include underclassmen in the rankings until they declare is because it opens a whole can of worms in terms of who to include. Where do you draw the line? That, along with the reasons I mentioned above, are why I wait until they announce their intentions. For those who want to know who the top underclassmen are there is the mock draft.

Ozzy
10-12-2011, 07:58 AM
MI_Buckeye I love this site, but one thing has been bothering me forever. Why aren't juniors and draft eligible sophomores included in the rankings and the hot lists?

Even ESPN has caught up on this one. I know that, for the most part, Scott and Shane are probably more well-versed on the seniors, because they evaluate them over the summer, knowing they will be a part of the next draft, but it is very clear that any analysis that blows off underclassmen is very incomplete.

Every other draft site has comprehensive coverage of the top underclassmen, and some even go further projecting value in future drafts. I would enjoy the rankings, blogs and hot lists much more if they included underclassmen.I agree, putting underclassmen is extremely critical to any pre draft rankings because underclassmen always control the draft more often than not. Not having underclassmen rated gives one a false impression of what the draft would look like.

Then again they might not list them to not try and influence their decision to go out early, who knows. But I see what you are saying, in terms of the up coming draft, easily almost all the positions, the top players are juniors, strange but usually more often than not it happens that way.

But looks like Scott already said that, and in many ways it makes sense, and again for most that follow the draft they already know the juniors and RS sophomores that could come out. If one wants to know those players just ask someone, sure plenty of guys along with myself have those complete lists....

CashmoneyDrew
10-12-2011, 09:48 AM
I don't know about including them in the rankings, but didn't the elite underclassmen used to have their own kind of sub-ranking below the rankings at their position? What happened to that?

Scott Wright
10-12-2011, 11:42 AM
I don't know about including them in the rankings, but didn't the elite underclassmen used to have their own kind of sub-ranking below the rankings at their position? What happened to that?

I used to just list the underclassmen that were in the mock draft alphabetically.

DiG
10-12-2011, 02:34 PM
I used to just list the underclassmen that were in the mock draft alphabetically.

I believe in the past there has been a Top Underclassman list. It was an overall list not by position and went like 20 deep or so.

JHL6719
10-12-2011, 02:37 PM
I like it the way it is. I like the fact that the focus is primarily on prospects who WILL be in the upcoming draft.

I enjoy talking about the potential underclassmen, and especially when there's a generational talent, but not every single RS sophomore or junior that gets hyped up by the usual suspects around here.

That's what the forum is for.

jrdrylie
10-12-2011, 02:43 PM
A few years ago I think I remember that there was a top underclassman lsit in each of the individual position rankings. That would be cool to bring back.

Caulibflower
10-12-2011, 04:02 PM
A few years ago I think I remember that there was a top underclassman lsit in each of the individual position rankings. That would be cool to bring back.

Seconded, or something. Not sure if it's considered "seconding" after I already suggested something similar, but it really would be nice to see top underclassmen listed at their position. The nature of the draft these days is such that many elite players know they'll go high in the draft and so leave after their third year; the top few picks at any given position are a mix of upper and lower-classmen, so I think it makes a lot of sense to include the top underclassmen prospects in the rankings. Even just a top-20 underclassmen list would be really cool.

Ozzy
10-12-2011, 04:20 PM
Calubflower

A few years ago I think I remember that there was a top underclassman lsit in each of the individual position rankings. That would be cool to bring back.
Seconded, or something. Not sure if it's considered "seconding" after I already suggested something similar, but it really would be nice to see top underclassmen listed at their position. The nature of the draft these days is such that many elite players know they'll go high in the draft and so leave after their third year; the top few picks at any given position are a mix of upper and lower-classmen, so I think it makes a lot of sense to include the top underclassmen prospects in the rankings. Even just a top-20 underclassmen list would be really cool.Something like this? Many members on here could put together their own lists like this.. It is his site however so pretty sure he can put up what he wishes.



JUNIOR / RS SOPH Class

QB
Andrew Luck Stanford RS
Landry Jones Oklahoma
Matt Barkley USC
Tyler Wilson Arkansas
Robert Griffin Baylor RS
Mike Glennon NC State
Geno Smith West Virginia
EJ Manuel Florida State
BJ Daniels South Florida

RB
Trent Richardson Alabama
Knile Davis Arkansas
Lamar Miller Miami FL RS SOPH
LaMichael James Oregon
Christine Michael Texas A&M
David Wilson Virginia Tech
Rex Burkhead Nebraska
Montee Ball Wisconsin
Ray Graham Pitt
Latavius Murray UCF
Cierre Wood Notre Dame
Dominique Whaley Oklahoma
Isi Sofele Cal
Robert Turbin Utah State
Chris Polk Washington
Edwin Baker Michigan State
Andre Ellington Clemson
Bernard Pierce Temple
Jonathan Franklin UCLA

FB
Zach Boren Ohio State
Lonnie Pryor Florida State
Mike James Miami FL

WR
Alshon Jeffery South Carolina
Justin Blackmon Oklahoma State RS
Cobi Hamilton Arkansas
Stephen Hill Georgia Tech
Mohamed Sanu Rutgers
Rodney Smith Florida State
Tavon Austin West Virginia
Rueben Randle LSU
Denard Robinson Michigan
TJ Moe Missouri
Eric Page Toledo
Theo Riddick Notre Dame
Conner Vernon Duke
Marcus Rucker Memphis
Aaron Dobson Marshall
Tavarres King Georgia
Russell Shepard LSU

TE
Dwayne Allen Clemson RS
Tyler Eifert Notre Dame
Michael Williams Alabama
Jake Stoneburner Ohio State
Orson Charles Georgia
Levine Toilolo Stanford
Ben Cotton Nebraska
Kendrick Moeai Utah
Kyler Reed Nebraska
Colter Phillips Virginia
Philip Lutzenkirchen Auburn
Matt Furstenburg Maryland

OT
Xavier Sua-Filo UCLA
Matt Kalil USC RS
Riley Reiff Iowa RS
Jonathan Martin Stanford
Brennan Williams UNC
Mike Goodman Jr Boston College
Hugh Thornton Illinois
Bobby Massie Ole Miss
Jordan Mills La Tech

OG
David DeCastro Stanford
Brandon Washington Miami FL
Patrick Omameh Michigan RS
Barrett Jones Alabama
Jonathan Cooper UNC
Travis Bond UNC
Chance Warmack Alabama
Brian Thomas Texas A&M
Khaled Holmes USC
John Sullen Auburn
Michael Philipp Oregon State

C
Peter Konz Wisconsin RS
Patrick Lewis Texas A&M
James Ferentz Iowa
Chris Bowers Marshall

DE
Brandon Jenkins Florida State
Devin Taylor South Carolina
Ronnell Lewis Oklahoma
Donte Paige-Moss UNC
Nick Perry USC RS
John Simon Ohio State
Damion Square Alabama
Craig Roh Michigan
Whitney Mercilus Illinois
Alex Okafor Texas
Tyler Hoover Michigan State
Gerald Rivers Ole Miss
Taylor Wyndham Kentucky
Malliciah Goodman Clemson
Colton Miles-Nash Arkansas
Olivier Vernon Miami FL

DT
Jerel Worthy Michigan State
Casey Walker Oklahoma
Jacobbi McDaniel Florida State
Baker Steinkuhler Nebraska
Omar Hunter Florida
Dontari Poe Memphis

ILB
Manti Te'o Notre Dame
Vontaze Burfict Arizona State
Devon Kennard USC
Demetrius Hartsfield Maryland
Brandin Hawthorne Michigan
Etienne Sabino Ohio State
Nico Johnson Alabama

OLB
Luke Kuechly Boston College
Michael Mauti Penn State
Shayne Skov Stanford
Bruce Taylor Virginia Tech
Ronnell Lewis Oklahoma
Arthur Brown Kansas State TS
Jonathan Willard Clemson
Uona Kaveinga BYU
Will Compton Nebraska
Cameron Lawrence Miss State
Daren Bates Auburn
Walter Stewart Cincinnati RS
Sean Porter Texas A&M
Steve Beauharnais Rutgers
Chris Norman Michigan State
Joey Ehrmann Wake Forest
Maalik Bomar Cincinnati

OLB
Ronnell Lewis Oklahoma
D.T. Shackelford Ole Miss
Craig Roh Michigan
Uona Kaveinga BYU
Sean Fisher Nebraska
Cornelius Washington Georgia

CB
Dre Kirkpatrick Alabama
Morris Claiborne LSU
Stephon Gilmore South Carolina
Jayron Hosley Virgina Tech
Greg Reid Florida State
Cliff Harris Oregon
Jamar Taylor Boise State
Johnny Adams Michigan State
Desmond Trufant Washington
Micah Hyde Iowa
Jonathan Banks Miss State
Branden Smith Georgia
Travis Howard Ohio State
Reuben Johnson Cincinnati
Phillip Thomas Syracuse
Kenny Okoro Wake Forest

SS
Nick Moody Florida State
Bacarri Rambo Georgia
Jordan Kovacs Michigan
Ray Ray Armstrong Miami FL
John Boyett Oregon
Khaseem Greene Rutgers

FS
TJ McDonald USC
Robert Lester Alabama
Javon Harris Oklahoma
Vaugh Telemaque Miami FL
Jim Noel Boston College
Rashard Hall Clemson
Jarred Holley Pitt
DeVonte Holloman South Carolina

K
Dustin Hopkins Florida State

P
Ben Buchanan Ohio State




1) Andrew Luck
2) Trent Richardson
3) Matt Kalil
4) Matt Barkley
5) Alshon Jeffery
6) Dre Kirkpatrick
7) Landry Jones
8) Robert Griffin III
9) Michael Floyd
10) Morris Claiborne
11) Jonathan Martin
12) Justin Blackmon
13) Manti Te'o
14) TJ McDonald
15) Riley Reiff
16) Vontaze Burfict
17) Jerel Worthy
18) Dwayne Allen
19) David DeCastro
20) Peter Konz