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View Full Version : Will the Carson Palmer trade propel the Bengals to dynasty status in this decade?


JBCX
10-18-2011, 10:29 AM
The Carson Palmer trade (or heist) pulled off by Mike Brown in which he netted, potentially, two first round picks for his superfluous quarterback seems eerily like the Herschel Walker trade of the 90s in which the young Jimmy Johnson-led Dallas Cowboys, building a team around Troy Aikman, netted a boatload of draft picks for a superfluous player (Herschel Walker) and then later built a dynasty by leveraging those draft picks into an extremely talented roster.

Could the Bengals eventually become a similar type of team as the 90s Dallas Cowboys? They already have a talented young quarterback and wide receiver combo - compare Troy Aikman / Michael Irvin in 1989 to Andy Dalton / AJ Green in 2011. If they can spend one of their recently acquired picks on their version of Emmitt Smith, they can complete the triumvirate.

After Jimmy Johnson made the trade for all of those draft picks, he carefully selected a slew of talented defensive and offensive players, built one of the youngest rosters in the league, watched Troy Aikman mature and develop chemistry with his playmakers, and watched as his Cowboys went on to become a force in the NFC that won 3 Super Bowls.

Can the same thing happen to the Bengals?

jrdrylie
10-18-2011, 10:36 AM
No. Andy Dalton is a good QB but I never see him being a superstar and you need to have a superstar QB if you want to have a dynasty.

prock
10-18-2011, 10:39 AM
I mean Troy Aikman wasn't a super star. Terry Bradshaw wasn't a super star. You need an awesome team. The Bengals could get there with what they have plus all these picks coming up. I mean it's the Bengals so it will probably fail somehow, but you can win multiple Super Bowls with an above average QB.

JBCX
10-18-2011, 10:41 AM
No. Andy Dalton is a good QB but I never see him being a superstar and you need to have a superstar QB if you want to have a dynasty.

Did Troy Aikman look like a superstar in his first year? In his first two years in the league, he had QB Ratings of 55.7 and 66.6 and and TD-INT ratios of 9-18 and 11-18 before rapidly developing in his third year in the league after developing a rapport with his young playmaker teammates.

If the Bengals continue to surround Andy Dalton with talent, on the perimeter and on the offensive line, I could easily see him becoming another Tory Aikman type: an accurate pocket passer who had the benefit of playing with a great RB, WR, TE, and FB and playing behind one of the best OL in the NFL and thus was elite almost by default. Dalton could accomplish the exact same thing with Jermain Gresham and AJ Green, and a RB such as Trent Richardson or whoever else the Bengals draft in 2012.

ATLDirtyBirds
10-18-2011, 10:42 AM
More than likely, no. The end.

JBCX
10-18-2011, 10:43 AM
I mean Troy Aikman wasn't a super star. Terry Bradshaw wasn't a super star. You need an awesome team. The Bengals could get there with what they have plus all these picks coming up. I mean it's the Bengals so it will probably fail somehow, but you can win multiple Super Bowls with an above average QB.

That's the point I'm trying to make - if you have all of these draft picks, you can build a spectacular roster and even a merely above-average QB can take you to a few Super Bowls.

The Bengals already have a ton of young talent (on defense and offense) and with these draft picks they have the opportunity to build a dynasty.

JBCX
10-18-2011, 10:44 AM
More than likely, no. The end.

You're just bitter because your team traded away its future for a single player and will now likely sink into mediocrity once again. :P

no bare feet
10-18-2011, 10:44 AM
I really love the threads you make, it makes my self esteem erect

tjsunstein
10-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Potentially. But there's more than a good chance that those players picked will not live up to the selection.

JBCX
10-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Potentially. But there's more than a good chance that those players picked will not live up to the selection.

If they keep drafting as well as they have recently (Carlos Dunlap, Jermaine Gresham, Geon Atkins, Andy Dalton, AJ Green, etc) I could see it happening.

The Bengals drafts have been really good recently.

killxswitch
10-18-2011, 10:54 AM
The trade was a huge win for the Bengals and I do like the roster, but Mike Brown doesn't care enough about winning to do what it takes to make the team a dynasty.

Leon Sandcastle
10-18-2011, 10:59 AM
I can totally see them ending up with Trent Richardson which would give them the best young core in the NFL!

Dalton/Richardson/Scott/Leonard/Green/Simpson/Shipley/Gresham WTF!

Not to mention what they do with their other 1st Rd Pick. They already have a great Defense.

tjsunstein
10-18-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm going to hold off judgement here until I see who they use their first rounders on the next two years.

the new jesus
10-18-2011, 11:14 AM
Calm down. Let them make the playoffs first before we start calling them a dynasty. LOL.

MetSox17
10-18-2011, 11:15 AM
I see Over-reacty McGee is still around.

keylime_5
10-18-2011, 11:17 AM
yes, the bengals are the next dynasty. Mike Brown has proven how amazing he is in the past, now that he has some picks he's gonna start reeling in super bowls. Marvin Lewis has been a Bill Belichick in waiting all along, he is finally gonna get the talent to win.

vidae
10-18-2011, 11:31 AM
It's way too early to tell, but you have to like what the Bengals have done the last few years, and adding in two more high picks certainly doesn't hurt.

But yeah, this thread is kinda dumb. :)

Shane P. Hallam
10-18-2011, 11:57 AM
Cleveland got Atlanta's first next year. Browns are the next dynasty.

bucfan12
10-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Cleveland got Atlanta's first next year. Browns are the next dynasty.

Don't think so with Colt McCoy at QB. He's ok, but he won't take them to the next level.

tjsunstein
10-18-2011, 12:00 PM
What has happened to these forums?

FUNBUNCHER
10-18-2011, 12:05 PM
This trade could propel the Bengals to the AFCCG in a couple years, but a dynasty can only happen if a team has a well run organization which starts at the ownership level.
Do the Bengals have the GM to turn those first rounders into additional picks needed to turn Cincinnati into a powerhouse??

Remains to be seen.

I know the Bengals need help at RB and maybe another top flight WR, but I don't know where the holes are in their starting 22.

Also, is Marvin Lewis the right guy to lead this team??

jrdrylie
10-18-2011, 12:21 PM
I mean Troy Aikman wasn't a super star. Terry Bradshaw wasn't a super star. You need an awesome team. The Bengals could get there with what they have plus all these picks coming up. I mean it's the Bengals so it will probably fail somehow, but you can win multiple Super Bowls with an above average QB.

Troy Aikman is in the Hall of Fame. Terry Bradshaw is in the Hall of Fame.

FootballGod
10-18-2011, 12:23 PM
Cleveland got Atlanta's first next year. Browns are the next dynasty. For me to poop on!!!

killxswitch
10-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Troy Aikman is in the Hall of Fame. Terry Bradshaw is in the Hall of Fame.

Because they won a lot of Super Bowls. Neither was the best at their position when they played.

FootballGod
10-18-2011, 12:25 PM
If the Bengals can land Richardson and DeCastro or Glenn then this scenario could happen.

jrdrylie
10-18-2011, 12:32 PM
Because they won a lot of Super Bowls. Neither was the best at their position when they played.

I agree with that to a point. I think Bradshaw is a bit overrated. But I don't think Dalton will ever be in the Hall of Fame or even close. I don't think he has that type of talent. And to win multiple Super Bowls, you have to have great talent at QB.

Monomach
10-18-2011, 12:38 PM
0% chance until Mike Brown gets some scouts and a GM.

FUNBUNCHER
10-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Because they won a lot of Super Bowls. Neither was the best at their position when they played.

Aikman was considered an elite QB when he played because of his performance in the playoffs against top notch defenses.

Terry Bradshaw was always considered among the top 5 QBs during the 1970s.

Bengals don't need to upgrade Dalton just yet IMO.

brat316
10-18-2011, 01:04 PM
From an extra first rounder they become a dynasty? Whaaat?

Correction on my part, extra first next year and extra 2nd or 1st, two years after that = dynasty?

Hmmm go back and look at all the teams that had 2 first round picks and see if they became a dynasty.

FUNBUNCHER
10-18-2011, 01:14 PM
From an extra first rounder they become a dynasty? Whaaat?

Correction on my part, extra first next year and extra 2nd or 1st, two years after that = dynasty?

Hmmm go back and look at all the teams that had 2 first round picks and see if they became a dynasty.


First rounders can be 'flipped' into additional picks by trading down in the round.

Those two first rounders could end up being 5 to 8 players.

The Bengals already have a great D, fill in a couple more critical young pieces and they could easily IMO leapfrog an aging Steelers team and overtake the Ravens/Patriots/Jets/Chargers in the short term as the best team in the AFC.

The question is who's picking those players??
I don't see a dynasty, but I do see them getting really good for about 3 or 4 years.

CC.SD
10-18-2011, 01:23 PM
AJ Green guarantees this by himself.

JBCX
10-18-2011, 01:40 PM
From an extra first rounder they become a dynasty? Whaaat?

Correction on my part, extra first next year and extra 2nd or 1st, two years after that = dynasty?

Hmmm go back and look at all the teams that had 2 first round picks and see if they became a dynasty.

It's not just the picks; they already have a talented young nucleus in place on both defense and offense.

QB + WR + TE on offense, lots of good DL on defense + shutdown CB and solid LBs

And all of them young.

JBCX
10-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Cleveland got Atlanta's first next year. Browns are the next dynasty.

If Colt McCoy improves, they could be. They've nailed their past two drafts in a big way by getting Pro Bowler types in both 1st and 2nd rounds in back-to-back years.

brat316
10-18-2011, 01:42 PM
It's not just the picks; they already have a talented young nucleus in place on both defense and offense.

QB + WR + TE on offense, lots of good DL on defense + shutdown CB and solid LBs

And all of them young.

sounds like they should win the superbowl this year in that case. Use to have shutdown Cbs

JBCX
10-18-2011, 01:43 PM
sounds like they should win the superbowl this year in that case. Use to have shutdown Cbs

Still very hard to win a Super Bowl with a rookie QB and rookie WR, but I'd be shocked if they don't make the playoffs. Might even finish ahead of the Steelers in their own division.

keylime_5
10-18-2011, 02:50 PM
Don't think so with Colt McCoy at QB. He's ok, but he won't take them to the next level.

didn't you know that they are gonna package those picks next year to draft the next tom brady in andrew luck?

A Perfect Score
10-18-2011, 02:56 PM
They will always be the Cincinnati Bungles to me, no matter how badly they rip off the Raiders.

Unbiased
10-18-2011, 02:57 PM
If Carson Palmer sucks so bad, then the Raiders aren't winning a playoff game and the Bengals only get the 2012 first rounder. Seems like some of you are counting on the Bengals to have 4 first round picks in the next 2 years.

no bare feet
10-18-2011, 03:10 PM
If Carson Palmer sucks so bad, then the Raiders aren't winning a playoff game and the Bengals only get the 2012 first rounder. Seems like some of you are counting on the Bengals to have 4 first round picks in the next 2 years.

wait they dont have that? who said that they have 4 the next 6 years?

Watchman
10-18-2011, 03:56 PM
The Carson Palmer trade (or heist) pulled off by Mike Brown in which he netted, potentially, two first round picks for his superfluous quarterback seems eerily like the Herschel Walker trade of the 90s in which the young Jimmy Johnson-led Dallas Cowboys, building a team around Troy Aikman, netted a boatload of draft picks for a superfluous player (Herschel Walker) and then later built a dynasty by leveraging those draft picks into an extremely talented roster.

Could the Bengals eventually become a similar type of team as the 90s Dallas Cowboys? They already have a talented young quarterback and wide receiver combo - compare Troy Aikman / Michael Irvin in 1989 to Andy Dalton / AJ Green in 2011. If they can spend one of their recently acquired picks on their version of Emmitt Smith, they can complete the triumvirate.

After Jimmy Johnson made the trade for all of those draft picks, he carefully selected a slew of talented defensive and offensive players, built one of the youngest rosters in the league, watched Troy Aikman mature and develop chemistry with his playmakers, and watched as his Cowboys went on to become a force in the NFC that won 3 Super Bowls.

Can the same thing happen to the Bengals?


To answer your question, no it won't, because at the end of the day the ownership is the biggest problem with the Bengals.

Secondly, could you explain how the Herschel Walker trade and the trade of Carson Palmer are at all similar (other than it was a trade in the NFL), and one team overpaid another team. As far as I've read the Palmer trade is as follows:

Raiders receive - Carson Palmer

Bengals receive - Raiders 2012 1st round pick, and a 2013 conditional 1st round pick

The Herschel Walker trade was huge that trade was as follows:

Vikings received - Herschel Walker, two 3rd round picks, one 5th round pick, and one 10th round pick

Cowboys received - three 1st round picks (two were conditional), three 2nd round picks (two were conditional), a conditional 3rd round pick, and a 6th round pick.

That's how you build a dynasty, pull off a trade in which you recieve 8 picks, with 6 of them in the first two rounds, to add to the talent you already have. Not to mention the fact that Dallas continued to wheel and deal with those picks - they ended up completing like three or four additional trades with the picks they received in the Herschel Walker trade in subsequent drafts.

And, as many have already pointed out - it depends what you do with those picks.

Basileus777
10-18-2011, 03:58 PM
If Carson Palmer sucks so bad, then the Raiders aren't winning a playoff game and the Bengals only get the 2012 first rounder. Seems like some of you are counting on the Bengals to have 4 first round picks in the next 2 years.

The Bengals still get Oakland's 2013 2nd rounder in that case.

tjsunstein
10-18-2011, 04:04 PM
The Bengals still get Oakland's 2013 2nd rounder in that case.
Which is a huge difference. That pick could be in the bottom half of the second, compared to a mid first.

A Perfect Score
10-18-2011, 04:04 PM
Which is a huge difference. That pick could be in the bottom half of the second, compared to a mid first.

It's still highway robbery in the grand scheme of things.

CC.SD
10-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Which is a huge difference. That pick could be in the bottom half of the second, compared to a mid first.

Just the second would have been way too much for Palmer

Bengalsrocket
10-18-2011, 05:32 PM
Dynasty? Even as a Bengals fan I'm laughing at that idea. But we have a lot of young pieces. It remains to be seen if we can even be good THIS year, so we'll see about the future.

I do have high hopes now, regardless of what the rest of this season.

Caddy
10-18-2011, 05:39 PM
Seriously??

prock
10-18-2011, 05:53 PM
Troy Aikman is in the Hall of Fame. Terry Bradshaw is in the Hall of Fame.

Which has what to do with being a super star? Both of them were above average quarterbacks on dynasties. Doesn't necessarily make them super stars.

Rabscuttle
10-18-2011, 06:55 PM
**** the Aztecs or whoever started this 2012 apocalyptic craziness. Bengals dynasty talk has me convinced the world is ending.

BamaFalcon59
10-18-2011, 07:05 PM
Not with Marvin Lewis coaching.

And that's that.

Pat Sims 90
10-18-2011, 07:08 PM
Plain and simple No. As long as Mike Brown and Marvin are here i doubt we do much of anything.

ChiFan24
10-18-2011, 07:28 PM
I know it won't happen, but I think it's worth thinking about - I don't think Dalton can be a pro bowl caliber QB (though I understand that some do). The Bengals now have the most trade ammo in the league. If they have the chance, aka the Rams or Vikings picking first, do they package those picks for Luck, and then trade Dalton elsewhere (maybe even get another late first for him? I know it wouldn't happen, but I would do that and I wouldn't think twice. They would absolutely be in position to build a dynasty.

Edit: seems it's probably already been brought up and shot down. That's dumb.

FUNBUNCHER
10-18-2011, 08:07 PM
At what point is Andrew Luck overrated?? There's no way he can live up to expectations IMO.

BEST QB EVA!!!!!!!

Dalton is going to be a good pro, maybe won't ever be able to win games by his play alone but will make enough plays consistently to help his team win.

LonghornsLegend
10-18-2011, 08:42 PM
Let's not jump to conclusions. Bengals aren't the best drafting team, even though this team does have young talent. That said, I'm not gonna expect them to hit on these picks.


They should have two top 20 picks this upcoming draft though, that in itself is going to be a huge boost.


I'm taking a RB with one(Richardson seems to be the favorite and it does make a ton of sense), and best O-lineman available with the other 1st, and probably the 2nd rder also.


The defense is young and has players all over it, I'm going to make sure I get a young elite RB to complete the offensive skill position players, and make sure Dalton has as much protection as he needs. He might not be a top 10 QB down the line but he's starter quality, let us not forget he didn't have an off-season either and being a 2nd rder I have no idea when he got the playbook. But when you have AJ Green you'll look alot better so he's in good hands.


Then in 2013 you should be able to draft two defensive impact players in the 1st round. There shouldn't be 1 need left on offense at that point. All they need to do is hit on 1st rd picks to be in an amazing position.

jayceheathman
10-18-2011, 08:51 PM
They will trade Dalton for 2 more first rounders and then use all 4 first round picks to trade up and get Luckzzzzzzzz.

ChiFan24
10-18-2011, 08:52 PM
At what point is Andrew Luck overrated?? There's no way he can live up to expectations IMO.

BEST QB EVA!!!!!!!

Dalton is going to be a good pro, maybe won't ever be able to win games by his play alone but will make enough plays consistently to help his team win.

When you have a stud/franchise QB, your chances of winning increase exponentially. You wouldn't have to worry about a guy making enough plays to win; you would just have a guy that you win because of.

The Bengals are in a unique position to get that stud QB, and put him in a very good situation almost immediately. And yes, as of now I would grade Luck so much higher than Dalton that I would do it despite the cost. But maybe that will change if Dalton keeps this up.

ChiFan24
10-18-2011, 08:55 PM
They will trade Dalton for 2 more first rounders and then use all 4 first round picks to trade up and get Luckzzzzzzzz.

Adding a bunch of z's is great and everything, but it's a football discussion that's worth having. As often as everyone on this board is completely wrong, you would think everyone would stop dismissing ideas as often as you all do.

Watchman
10-19-2011, 02:52 AM
I know it won't happen, but I think it's worth thinking about - I don't think Dalton can be a pro bowl caliber QB (though I understand that some do). The Bengals now have the most trade ammo in the league. If they have the chance, aka the Rams or Vikings picking first, do they package those picks for Luck, and then trade Dalton elsewhere (maybe even get another late first for him? I know it wouldn't happen, but I would do that and I wouldn't think twice. They would absolutely be in position to build a dynasty.

Edit: seems it's probably already been brought up and shot down. That's dumb.

I guess anything is possible, but why do you think the Bengals would employ this strategy and not the Vikings?

Borat
10-19-2011, 03:07 AM
I just want to be in this thread.

FUNBUNCHER
10-19-2011, 06:12 AM
When you have a stud/franchise QB, your chances of winning increase exponentially. You wouldn't have to worry about a guy making enough plays to win; you would just have a guy that you win because of.

The Bengals are in a unique position to get that stud QB, and put him in a very good situation almost immediately. And yes, as of now I would grade Luck so much higher than Dalton that I would do it despite the cost. But maybe that will change if Dalton keeps this up.

As a Bears fan you most of all not the value of having an elite talent at the QB position. A franchise caliber QB can mask deficiencies along the Oline, overcome a lack of talent at WR and even outplay a bad offensive scheme/philosophy.

Despite the poor protection, the smurf WRs and no true number 1, Cutler makes the Bears offense work because he is a rare talent. The resurgence of Matt Forte helps, but it can't be dismissed how having a guy who's a threat under center opens up run opportunities in the ground game. One feeds off the other.

I'm trying to think, what's Dalton's ceiling as a pro IMO among current NFL players?? To me Dalton could develop into a Matt Hasselbeck/Matt Schaub type player, which isn't top 10 but when consistent is at a level sufficient enough to beat the best in the league assuming the rest of the pieces are assembled around him.

Give Dalton a pro bowl level RB and a bookend WR opposite AJ Green and I don't think you need a once-in-a-generation prospect at QB for the Bengals to be successful.

The only thing Dalton really lacks is a cannon arm. His football IQ is special and his decision making appears to be sound.

You many not be able to win it all with a Trent Dilfer at QB anymore, a guy who's basically out there just to give the D a blow and not much else.

But I still think the Matt Hasselbeck's of the world are just good enough to win it all.

To paraphrase a bud of mine, '(Dalton) may not be that sexy, but (he's) good in bed.'

Smooth Criminal
10-19-2011, 06:52 AM
How bout they win a championship, or even a playoff game, this decade before we even mention them as a possible dynasty.