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cmarq83
10-19-2011, 10:49 AM
Both guys are out of the 2010 draft class, and are having extremely impressive sophmore campaigns in 2011.

Graham: 39rec 620yds 3tds
Gronkowski: 29rec 401yds 5tds

They are roughly the same size at 6'6" 265lbs.

Graham is more of an explosive athlete, and has #1 target type potential within an NFL offense. He's extremely long and is an ex-basketball player with great leaping ability. He has been the primary target of Brees in the passing game so far this year and is just scratching the surface of his potential. He also has an edge about him which most didn't really know about around draft time. He still has a lot of work to do as a blocker, but the tools are there.

Gronkowski is an animal in the simplest terms. In his second year he's probably already the best blocking TE in the NFL. At this point I think he'd do better than Light if we plugged him in at LT. He's an outstanding red zone target, and has accumulated 15tds in his 22 game NFL career. He doesn't have quite the catching radius of a guy like Graham so he requires a more accurate passer.

I left out Gresham, Hernandez, and Moeaki because I don't think they're on quite the same level right now.

tjsunstein
10-19-2011, 10:54 AM
Depends what kind of offense I'm running.
I like Graham a lot more as a receiver but Gronk is a complete TE.

Saints-Tigers
10-19-2011, 11:16 AM
If I wasn't a Saints fan, I'd probably be more torn, but I couldn't imagine trading Graham for any TE.

I am a huge Gronkowski fan though, probably a top 3 redzone player at worst.

Estimates on what Graham finishes the season with? He's looking like he's going to shatter the yards record for a TE.

nrk
10-19-2011, 11:48 AM
I chose Gronkowski because Graham is a flopper. That was such a sad display.

FlyingElvis
10-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Homer vote cast!

Jimmy is off the charts right now, but he's definitely not the complete player that Gronk is. I see no reason (aside from injury) to beleive he won't destroy the TE yardage record. He is the clear #1 in a high octane passing offense and should finish the season with WR-like stats. Currently on pace for 104 catches (2 better than Tony's record) and 1650 yards (never going to happen) which is 360 more than the record. Totally insane.

Gronk has been called to block in pass-pro too much to content with the stats, unfortunately. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but NE seems to struggle most when he's not in the routes.

Breed
10-19-2011, 12:02 PM
Is Gronk even the bes TE on his team?

Punisher
10-19-2011, 12:06 PM
Is Gronk even the bes TE on his team?

Yes, he is

cmarq83
10-19-2011, 12:07 PM
Is Gronk even the bes TE on his team?

Yes by a fairly wide margin too. Hernandez is good at what he does, but is more inconsistent, less of a vertical threat, and nowhere near the blocker Gronkowski is.

A Perfect Score
10-19-2011, 12:08 PM
I think if Jermaine Gresham had Tom Brady throwing to him and not Andy Dalton you'd be seeing one of the best TEs in the game...I definitely think he's on the same level.

As for the poll, I'm taking Gronk. He's just too damn awesome.

keylime_5
10-19-2011, 12:13 PM
Gronkowski is a far superior blocker and has great hands and is a great receiver to boot. Graham is a good, athletic playmaker and has been one of Brees' go to guys, though he isn't really a great blocker and I've seen him drop a few too many balls. I know the Saints think the world of Graham and his potential. I still take Gronk.

ATLDirtyBirds
10-19-2011, 12:32 PM
Gronk. Just such a complete, consistent player. My favorite TE in football right now.

Ness
10-19-2011, 12:32 PM
I chose Gronkowski because Graham is a flopper. That was such a sad display.

Yeah what was up with that? This is the second time this season I've seen Graham tried to pull a stunt like that. In the Carolina game I remember a player barely touching his helmet with his own helmet and Graham pretended like he got knocked down to the floor hard and tried to get the ref's attention. This guy is really demonstrative too when he scores or makes a big play. Like his belt gesture when he scored against the Packers.

I heard he was bullied as a kid. I wonder if there is a connection.

Shane P. Hallam
10-19-2011, 12:34 PM
I like both a lot, but would take Gronk in the "real" NFL. I like guys that can block and catch. Though Graham is developing as a blocker, he is not there yet, mainly a receiving threat. In the red zone, Gronk is deadly. Bruising run blocker, and play action makes defenses crazy when they bite on the run, Gronk is wide open.

tjsunstein
10-19-2011, 12:35 PM
Graham being a flopper has nothing to do with his athletic ability and whether or not he's better than Gronkowski.

Hurricanes25
10-19-2011, 12:38 PM
I chose Gronkowski because Graham is a flopper. That was such a sad display.

He's a former basketball player so I would expect nothing less. haha.

I think Graham is a slightly better receiver than Gronk but Gronk is the better blocker by a decent margin.

nrk
10-19-2011, 12:45 PM
Graham being a flopper has nothing to do with his athletic ability and whether or not he's better than Gronkowski.

Who is better has nothing to do with the question, "Who would you rather have?". I can base who I rather have on whatever criteria I see fit. It's not the only factor that I based my decision on though.

Yeah what was up with that? This is the second time this season I've seen Graham tried to pull a stunt like that. In the Carolina game I remember a player barely touching his helmet with his own helmet and Graham pretended like he got knocked down to the floor hard and tried to get the ref's attention. This guy is really demonstrative too when he scores or makes a big play. Like his belt gesture when he scored against the Packers.

I heard he was bullied as a kid. I wonder if there is a connection.

I can kind of understand it for a punter, but a tight end? Come on. I also forgot about that celebration he did against the Packers. The Saints were behind when he did it too.

cmarq83
10-19-2011, 01:32 PM
I think if Jermaine Gresham had Tom Brady throwing to him and not Andy Dalton you'd be seeing one of the best TEs in the game...I definitely think he's on the same level.

As for the poll, I'm taking Gronk. He's just too damn awesome.

In the limited action I've seen out of Gresham, I've always thought he wasn't quite as athletic as the other two. He seems to be a bit more lumbering to me. Plus, he has a long way to go as a blocker, so I kept him out. I think 1000 yd potential is there, but he needs to be in the right situation.

Gronkowski could actually produce more with some other QB's because Brady doesn't throw a great seam route. Most of the time he goes Gronkowski's way it's by design, but his primary reads are usually Hernandez/Welker/a back. Most of the time he's taking safety help to open up other receivers.The Patriots offense for the most part isn't a TE friendly offense despite Aarob Gronkandez's impressive stats.

niel89
10-19-2011, 01:38 PM
I'd have to go Gronk just because of his completeness at TE. I think Graham is great, but give me the guy who can block well also and is a little more reserved with his on the field demeanor.

Babylon
10-19-2011, 01:46 PM
Partial to New England but Gronkowski does it all and is a great blocker too. He would probably have better numbers but as it was pointed out Brady spreads the ball around. Not sure why this is even debatable really.

murdamal86
10-19-2011, 01:51 PM
I'm going w/the Graham Reaper

Raiderz4Life
10-19-2011, 01:56 PM
Get GRONK wit it

tjsunstein
10-19-2011, 01:58 PM
Who is better has nothing to do with the question, "Who would you rather have?". I can base who I rather have on whatever criteria I see fit. It's not the only factor that I based my decision on though.
This is erroneous.

Saints-Tigers
10-19-2011, 02:09 PM
Graham is hardly a TE to be honest. His targets, the area of the field he works, and the way he lines up is basically a WR. He's a TE in name and size... haha. He's on pace for 1653 yards at the moment.

I'd like to see where he is in a few years, Gronkowski is far more polished and experienced, playing the position and football longer.

I think both of these guys are head and shoulders above Hernandez and the other young TEs, and I'm not sure they aren't the two best in the NFL at the moment(with Gates banged up).

RE: Flopping... maybe it's the basketball background? lol.

Saints-Tigers
10-19-2011, 02:11 PM
Partial to New England but Gronkowski does it all and is a great blocker too. He would probably have better numbers but as it was pointed out Brady spreads the ball around. Not sure why this is even debatable really.

The Saints might be the only team that historically spreads the ball more than New England.

And it's debatable because Jimmy Graham is balling out of control, and his potential to get better is still scary.

nrk
10-19-2011, 02:11 PM
This is erroneous.

It's relevant if it effects your decision, otherwise, no it isn't erroneous.

MetSox17
10-19-2011, 03:30 PM
If Gronk is one of the best blocking TEs in the league, i sure as hell wouldn't have known it after Sunday's game. Ware raped him pretty regularly.

cmarq83
10-19-2011, 03:41 PM
If Gronk is one of the best blocking TEs in the league, i sure as hell wouldn't have known it after Sunday's game. Ware raped him pretty regularly.

I'm not really sure what game you watched because Gronkowski was split out wide for probably about 50% of the snaps, and Ware had 2 sacks, one where he beat light and the other where he beat Light and then a back who tried to chip. In the running game Gronk actually sealed Ware on the edge on a stretch leading to a big gain, so I don't really know what you mean by he got raped. Nonetheless if your standards for a good blocking TE include being able to block a hall of fame caliber OLB 1-on-1 then you might never find a guy who meets that description.

descendency
10-19-2011, 03:46 PM
I'm sure Jimmy Graham is a better pass receiver (route runner and ball catcher), but Gronkowski's numbers are deflated because of Aaron Hernandez.

I'd take Gronkowski every time.

CC.SD
10-19-2011, 03:51 PM
I take Graham here, but they are both raping. Get a lineman if you want someone to block for you.

Rabscuttle
10-19-2011, 07:34 PM
I'd take Gronk for the Niners. We could use an even bigger tight end. Our wide receiver issues will be solved by never putting any on the field.

Bengalsrocket
10-19-2011, 07:38 PM
There was no Gresham option so I picked Gronkowski.

DeepThreat
10-19-2011, 08:07 PM
I'll take Graham. Gronkowski is a great player, but he isn't as big of a threat to a defense as Graham is. The Saints have a beast.

PoopSandwich
10-19-2011, 08:52 PM
Jimmy Graham Crackers in a heart beat.

MetSox17
10-19-2011, 09:01 PM
Martellus Bennett was supposed to be something like one of these guys and we could have had a Patriots-esque passing offense.

But, balls bounce off his face and he doesn't know where the hell he needs to go half the time.

bucfan12
10-19-2011, 09:16 PM
Graham. He only played one year of college football and people loved his potential. Gronkowski is very good himself, but Graham could be the best TE in the NFL in the next 2 years.

Splat
10-20-2011, 08:53 AM
Gronkowski.

Better name and better player.

San Diego Chicken
10-20-2011, 09:04 AM
Right now Gronkowski, in 2-3 years Graham. He reminds me so much of a young Gates.

ElectricEye
10-20-2011, 10:36 AM
As a pass catcher, I'm taking Graham. He's already beaten out Finley as the best flex tight end in the league. Just a nightmare to match up against and he's damn near impossible to cover.

As a true tight end, I'm taking Gronkowski every time. That's not to imply he's not a great pass catcher either; he's probably better than his numbers indicate too given how Hernandez steals targets from him. He can beat you after the catch and he can go vertical. Just a complete overall package.

Don Vito
10-20-2011, 10:50 AM
Gronk. The man, the myth, the legend.

nepg
10-20-2011, 11:40 AM
Gronk all the way. Amazing hands. I don't get the "Graham might be the best TE in a couple years" thing in this discussion. Gronk might (probably is?) be the best TE in the NFL already. Why would he not be in a few years?

tjsunstein
10-20-2011, 12:20 PM
Gronk all the way. Amazing hands. I don't get the "Graham might be the best TE in a couple years" thing in this discussion. Gronk might (probably is?) be the best TE in the NFL already. Why would he not be in a few years?
Because Graham is still relatively raw. You have to believe that there's a ton of potential still.

ATLDirtyBirds
10-20-2011, 01:36 PM
The new Gonzalez vs. Gates debate?

descendency
10-20-2011, 05:45 PM
The new Gonzalez vs. Gates debate?

That's not a debate. Anyone who doesn't see that Gonzalez is clearly the better TE is nuts.

A Perfect Score
10-20-2011, 05:51 PM
That's not a debate. Anyone who doesn't see that Gonzalez is clearly the better TE is nuts.

If we're talking about them in their primes, I'm taking Gates every time. Healthy and motivated, Antonio Gates is one of the few truly uncoverable people in the NFL. I've seen Chargers plays where Gates is somehow just sitting wide open 15 yards down the field. I'll never understand it.

If you're talking career and influence though, there's no doubt its Gonzalez. Better blocker, too.

CC.SD
10-20-2011, 06:46 PM
If we're talking about them in their primes, I'm taking Gates every time. Healthy and motivated, Antonio Gates is one of the few truly uncoverable people in the NFL. I've seen Chargers plays where Gates is somehow just sitting wide open 15 yards down the field. I'll never understand it.

If you're talking career and influence though, there's no doubt its Gonzalez. Better blocker, too.

Yah this is how I see it (surprise!). Gonzo has the stats for now and has been around longer but if you're telling me I have one guy to make a play with...well they're both going to Canton so who cares.

Splat
10-20-2011, 07:12 PM
I posted this in the week 7 thread but since his name came up...

Tony Gonzalez closes in on No. 2 on all-time receptions list (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/20/tony-gonzalez-closes-in-on-no-2-on-all-time-receptions-list/)

Having already reached statistical milestones that no other tight end has ever accomplished in NFL history, Tony Gonzalez (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1331/tony-gonzalez) is now closing in on statistical territory that’s been reached by only one wide receiver in NFL history.

If he catches four passes for the Falcons against the Lions on Sunday, Gonzalez will move into second place on the NFL’s all-time receiving list, behind only Jerry Rice. Gonzalez currently has 1,099 catches in his career, just behind Cris Carter (1,101) and Marvin Harrison (1,102).

Boss.

bigbluedefense
10-20-2011, 08:28 PM
Gronk is basically a younger, more athletic Jason Witten and Graham is the next Jermichael Finley.

I'll take Graham bc of the upside. You can always teach blocking. You can't teach speed. Both are great though.

cmarq83
10-20-2011, 08:46 PM
Gronk is basically a younger, more athletic Jason Witten and Graham is the next Jermichael Finley.

I'll take Graham bc of the upside. You can always teach blocking. You can't teach speed. Both are great though.

How can Graham be the next Jermichael Finley when he's already a better player than Finley? Finley has never put together a full dominant season, so I don't see how he can be a player whom people should try to become. The guy has never had more than 700 yards and 5tds in a season.

bigbluedefense
10-20-2011, 08:58 PM
How can Graham be the next Jermichael Finley when he's already a better player than Finley? Finley has never put together a full dominant season, so I don't see how he can be a player whom people should try to become. The guy has never had more than 700 yards and 5tds in a season.

I was moreso referring to their similarities athletically.

To be fair to Finley, its hard putting up numbers when there are so many other weapons, plus hes taking the safety out for his receivers almost every snap. Plus he took longer than Graham to develop, he was raw too coming out. And he was on his way last year before he got hurt.

I think Finley is definitely a top 5 te in the league right now.

BeerBaron
10-20-2011, 08:59 PM
I took Gronk for his completeness, but certainly would not be upset with either.

nepg
10-20-2011, 09:08 PM
Gronk is basically a younger, more athletic Jason Witten and Graham is the next Jermichael Finley.

I'll take Graham bc of the upside. You can always teach blocking. You can't teach speed. Both are great though.
Gronk is just as fast as Graham. I really don't think people understand how good Gronk is and how much more he can grow. The guy runs past CBs and Ss regularly.

tjsunstein
10-20-2011, 09:16 PM
Jermichael Finley > Jimmy Graham.

bigbluedefense
10-20-2011, 09:18 PM
Gronk is just as fast as Graham. I really don't think people understand how good Gronk is and how much more he can grow. The guy runs past CBs and Ss regularly.

Hes fast, but Graham is faster, longer, and can jump higher. Graham is more athletic. That's taking nothing away from Gronk, I love Gronk. He'll be a top te in this league for a long time.

You can't go wrong with either guy. I just like Graham more bc his upside is through the roof.

Splat
10-20-2011, 10:08 PM
Jermichael Finley > Jimmy Graham.

Finley really hasn't done much of anything.

Complex
10-20-2011, 10:12 PM
Jermichael Finley > Jimmy Graham.

I wish that was true...... for fantasy football proposes but the guy has had 1 good game and has a couple of drops here and there and here and there

islandboy843
10-20-2011, 11:05 PM
Pshhhhh

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0317/nfl_a_cook01_576.jpg

tjsunstein
10-20-2011, 11:09 PM
I really wish Finley would put together a full season. That way I could actually make that case, whether it's been injury or drops, or something else, he hasn't managed to yet. He's equally if not more dangerous than Jimmy Graham when he's on, though, as rare as those times may be.

TACKLE
10-20-2011, 11:20 PM
I really wish Finley would put together a full season. That way I could actually make that case, whether it's been injury or drops, or something else, he hasn't managed to yet. He's equally if not more dangerous than Jimmy Graham when he's on, though, as rare as those times may be.

I agree with this. Pre-knee injury, I felt he was the most dangerous TE in the league not named Gates. Even in the glimpses I've seen this year, there is certainly an argument to be made.

Complex
10-20-2011, 11:25 PM
Pshhhhh

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0317/nfl_a_cook01_576.jpg

I wish we were like the Saints and Pats and didn't really care if out TE was a good/great blocker. In my opinion Cook is a good enough blocker, If Eugene Amano is good enough to start even though he sucks(since he started) Cook is good enough to play more than a third of the snaps.

Cook’s biggest issue, Palmer said, is the Titans have two veteran tight ends in Craig Stevens and Daniel Graham, and both are primarily blockers. So Cook is on the field for about a third of the offensive snaps

nepg
10-20-2011, 11:32 PM
I still don't completely get why Daniel Graham was forced into the blocking TE schtick. Sure, he was/is the best in the NFL at it at his position (was capable of soloing Peppers when he was with the Pats), but he was a freak athlete as well who could get down field in a hurry and really tough to bring down. I guess his hands just weren't the best.

Loved when the Pats would run plays for him in the flat and just watch him run.

cmarq83
10-20-2011, 11:34 PM
I still don't completely get why Daniel Graham was forced into the blocking TE schtick. Sure, he was/is the best in the NFL at it at his position (was capable of soloing Peppers when he was with the Pats), but he was a freak athlete as well who could get down field in a hurry and really tough to bring down. I guess his hands just weren't the best.

Loved when the Pats would run plays for him in the flat and just watch him run.

The man couldn't catch a cold. He'll always have that Atlanta play though.

nepg
10-20-2011, 11:36 PM
The man couldn't catch a cold. He'll always have that Atlanta play though.
That was sooooo epic. Still not sure if I'd rank that one over Watson's against Jacksonville... I think I do simply because I loved Daniel Graham just a tiny bit more. (though Watson also has the play against Denver (TOUCHBACK! Refs hosed the Pats so badly in that game :(. The refs literally gave the Broncos like 21 points they wouldn't have had otherwise))

Gronk is like Daniel Graham with amazing hands and Ben Watson's explosiveness.

islandboy843
10-20-2011, 11:46 PM
Went with

http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/rob-gronkowski.jpg

tjsunstein
10-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Classic Gronkowski.

I mean, who is that?

Razor
10-21-2011, 04:25 AM
Went with

http://www.thesportsbank.net/core/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/rob-gronkowski.jpg

You gotta love this man. I mean, he's dumb as **** and talks so much **** and all.. And I love it! He's also one heck of a football player already. I think he's only just turned 22 this summer. He strong, he's fast, he can block just about anyone, he has a big catching radius and he absolutely destroys tacklers after the catch. Really, too me, there's no TE I'd want for the Patriots but Gronk. I think Graham is the flavor of the month (year, whatever), but you can defend Graham. With Gronk there really is no defense. He's just too big and strong. I'd take Gresham over Graham too btw. Probably also Finley, but I'm still not sure of that.

fenikz
10-21-2011, 04:47 AM
That's silly, this is only Graham's 3rd year of playing football and he is already the best receiving TE in the league.

Caulibflower
10-21-2011, 05:46 AM
That's silly, this is only Graham's 3rd year of playing football and he is already the best receiving TE in the league.

In a passing league. Further undervaluing run-blocking. Graham's a better receiver than Gronkowski because he is literally more like a wide receiver. He's just huge, and he lines up at the "TE" spot. So as for the guy that lines up at that position, I think most teams would take Graham if given a choice. He just offers more to offensive coordinators.

Caddy
10-21-2011, 05:56 AM
That's silly, this is only Graham's 3rd year of playing football and he is already the best receiving TE in the league.

This is the reason I chose Graham. He is the next Antonio Gates.

nepg
10-21-2011, 06:21 AM
This is the reason I chose Graham. He is the next Antonio Gates.
This is Gronk's 2nd year in the league.

cmarq83
10-21-2011, 06:56 AM
In a passing league. Further undervaluing run-blocking. Graham's a better receiver than Gronkowski because he is literally more like a wide receiver. He's just huge, and he lines up at the "TE" spot. So as for the guy that lines up at that position, I think most teams would take Graham if given a choice. He just offers more to offensive coordinators.

I'm not so sure about this. It may be a passing league, but teams still run about 40% of the time. Would you rather have a guy who is a threat on 100% of plays or 60% of plays? Also, I'm not sure there is anything an offensive coordinator could do with Graham that he couldn't necessarily do with Gronk. Although Graham is a unique athlete, Gronk is not limited athletically and is capable of being split out wide and running the entire route tree.

Even on a pass based team like New England you can see Gronk's value on a game by game basis as a run blocker. They use him in motion as a FB to block out DT's and LB's. They have started using the stretch play for the first time that I can remember, and that is because they have faith that Gronk can seal the edge. He did exactly that on the big BJGE run that iced the Jets a couple of weeks ago. He also kicked out the DE springing Ridley's big run against Oakland. There are a lot of arguments for Graham, but being more useful to OC's is not one of them.

Caulibflower
10-21-2011, 07:18 AM
I'm not so sure about this. It may be a passing league, but teams still run about 40% of the time. Would you rather have a guy who is a threat on 100% of plays or 60% of plays? Also, I'm not sure there is anything an offensive coordinator could do with Graham that he couldn't necessarily do with Gronk. Although Graham is a unique athlete, Gronk is not limited athletically and is capable of being split out wide and running the entire route tree.

Even on a pass based team like New England you can see Gronk's value on a game by game basis as a run blocker. They use him in motion as a FB to block out DT's and LB's. They have started using the stretch play for the first time that I can remember, and that is because they have faith that Gronk can seal the edge. He did exactly that on the big BJGE run that iced the Jets a couple of weeks ago. He also kicked out the DE springing Ridley's big run against Oakland. There are a lot of arguments for Graham, but being more useful to OC's is not one of them.

You make some good points.

Caddy
10-21-2011, 07:51 AM
This is Gronk's 2nd year in the league.

So? Graham has played tight end for only a few years and is already murdering defenses. I still think he has room for improvement, which is saying something because he is already an elite tight end in the league.

nepg
10-21-2011, 08:20 AM
So? Graham has played tight end for only a few years and is already murdering defenses. I still think he has room for improvement, which is saying something because he is already an elite tight end in the league.
So if we're arguing Gronk v. Graham, Gronk has the "has only played x years" argument in his favor and also has a lot of room to improve while being the best all-around TE in the NFL already. I also don't buy that Graham is a better athlete or faster or a better receiver. Just because a higher percentage of the plays he's involved in have him running routes doesn't mean he's a better receiving TE.

Just saying...

I appreciate Graham as much as the next person, but the arguments made for Graham don't make sense to me because Gronk is more than capable of doing everything that Graham does and more.

FlyingElvis
10-21-2011, 10:10 AM
Somebody find the metrics / playcounts / formation info. I'd be willing to bet that Graham spends the vast majority of his time lined up split in a two point stance. I know in the games I've watched he rarely is 3-point next to a tackle. Let's be honest - he's a TE only in roster designation.

Saints-Tigers
10-21-2011, 10:30 AM
Somebody find the metrics / playcounts / formation info. I'd be willing to bet that Graham spends the vast majority of his time lined up split in a two point stance. I know in the games I've watched he rarely is 3-point next to a tackle. Let's be honest - he's a TE only in roster designation.

I agree. He really plays like a much bigger version of Marques Colston. His movement and the way he plays the ball is just like him.

Gronkowski is a monster, and on some days I might lean to him, but he absolutely can NOT do everything Graham can as a receiver.

Graham is a more explosive athlete, particularly going up.

I dunno if he's the best blocker, but Gronkowksi probably has the strongest pair of hands in the league.

Jermichael Finley is overrated and shouldn't be in this discussion.

FlyingElvis
10-21-2011, 10:42 AM
I agree. He really plays like a much bigger version of Marques Colston. His movement and the way he plays the ball is just like him.

Gronkowski is a monster, and on some days I might lean to him, but he absolutely can NOT do everything Graham can as a receiver.

Graham is a more explosive athlete, particularly going up.

I dunno if he's the best blocker, but Gronkowksi probably has the strongest pair of hands in the league.

Jermichael Finley is overrated and shouldn't be in this discussion.

Gronk's blocking really is incredible. Every week I find myself hitting rewind during the game to watch 4-6 blocks by the kid. It's a thing of beauty.

What I find really sick about Graham is that he truly looks like a kid who is just now getting into form - both his skill and the coach's use of him - and he is looking like 6 catches and 120 yards will remain his average weekly output. I said the 1600 yards he's on pace for won't happen, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it did. His first two games of the season were "only" 50-60 yard performances.

56 / 79 / 100 / 132 / 129 / 124
He has basically gone from a target in a high-octane offense to THE target and there's really nothing that will stop him from putting up 100 every week.

Are teams doubling him every week yet?

Saints-Tigers
10-21-2011, 10:59 AM
He gets doubled pretty well, it's hard to double anyone consistently on the Saints, you have to keep Brees guessing. I'd say he definitely sees the most doubles on our team, even including Colston.

Honestly, he's so big that Brees doesn't really care if he's doubled, and he'll try to get it in there.

I like when they have a guy over and underneath him and Brees will just put it right in the spot and they really can't compete with him.

He's been more impressive breaking tackles this year as well... for someone that was deemed soft, he's very physical after the catch now, which is what makes it more hilarious when he flops after the play when a 190 pound defender gives him a light shove.

He's become our number 1 target already though, he's going to get more targets than Gronk from here out, Brees has fallen for him like Gates, and he's an even bigger target.

bigbluedefense
10-21-2011, 11:03 AM
Here's my take:

There's no question both of these guys are beasts, and that Gronk is the better TE right now, mostly bc of his versatility.

I just feel that the one major advantage Gronk has over Graham is blocking, and you can always teach blocking.

Now, having that said, will Graham develop into a blocker? Probably not, bc he was drafted by the Saints and they'll basically just use him as a WR. But you have to remember, would Gronk become the blocker he is if he were drafted by the Saints? Who knows, maybe not.

So that's the part of the equation we have to consider. It's not that Graham is not capable of learning how to block, he's just not asked to block.

And while both are great pass catchers, I think it's safe to say that Graham is and will be the superior WR of the 2. So the aspect that Gronk has over him is blocking, and like I said, you can always teach a guy how to block.

That's why I chose Graham. I love both these guys and think both will be studs for a long time, but I just like Graham's potential and feel that if coaching was equal for both players, you can develop Graham to be a better TE all things equal.

It's unfair to do a straight comparison bc you take out the coaching and system aspect. But as straight prospects, I'm choosing Graham bc of the upside.

Saints-Tigers
10-21-2011, 11:05 AM
FlyingElvis, I have 6 fantasy leagues and I have Graham or Gronkowski in every single one, so I agree with that comment, haha.

FlyingElvis
10-21-2011, 11:22 AM
He gets doubled pretty well, it's hard to double anyone consistently on the Saints, you have to keep Brees guessing. I'd say he definitely sees the most doubles on our team, even including Colston.

Honestly, he's so big that Brees doesn't really care if he's doubled, and he'll try to get it in there.

I like when they have a guy over and underneath him and Brees will just put it right in the spot and they really can't compete with him.

He's been more impressive breaking tackles this year as well... for someone that was deemed soft, he's very physical after the catch now, which is what makes it more hilarious when he flops after the play when a 190 pound defender gives him a light shove.

He's become our number 1 target already though, he's going to get more targets than Gronk from here out, Brees has fallen for him like Gates, and he's an even bigger target.

That's crazy. I saw the first two games when he wasn't a known commodity yet. If he's posting 120 while taking the majority of the double teams it's outrageous.

FlyingElvis, I have 6 fantasy leagues and I have Graham or Gronkowski in every single one, so I agree with that comment, haha.

I would love to see Gronk in routes more. He really is dominant but the system doesn't have him running routes every time they pass. It's unfortunate, as he's my starter on one team and I've lost two in a row due, in part, to his disappearance.


Now, having that said, will Graham develop into a blocker? Probably not, bc he was drafted by the Saints and they'll basically just use him as a WR. But you have to remember, would Gronk become the blocker he is if he were drafted by the Saints? Who knows, maybe not.


As much as I value our coaching - especially Dante w/blocking - Gronk and his prior coaches deserve most of the credit. He's been a beast in-line from day one.

Complex
10-21-2011, 11:33 AM
This is Gronk's 2nd year in the league.

Patriots fans are such homers. Brady should be MVP over Aaron Rodgers because Aaron has better weapons and a better D. Welker is having a more impressive season because he is "carrying" the patriots and isn't getting any help. Now its Gronk is better because he is a better blocker and he is 2nd year NFL.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1418/6328000/22884592/386205574.jpg

BTW Graham is in 2nd year in the NFL too and his 3rd year playing football, and he is faster than Gronk

nepg
10-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Gronk is better because he's better. He's just as much of a weapon as a pass catcher and is able to do more things to help the team win (yes, of course blocking ******* helps - this isn't fantasy football). He's the best TE in the NFL. How is the best TE in the NFL not better than another TE? He's the best... It's stupid to act like there's some kind of crazy ceiling on Graham and act like Gronk's maxed out. Gronk is 3 years younger...

So now you're degrading it to Patriots fans being homers...

Saints-Tigers
10-21-2011, 12:41 PM
Just you mostly. Most of the Patriots fans think it's close, and a few have said Graham is more dangerous as a receiver.

ElectricEye
10-21-2011, 12:42 PM
Patriots fans are such homers. Brady should be MVP over Aaron Rodgers because Aaron has better weapons and a better D.

Haven't heard that one. Rodgers is the clear cut MVP and everyone knows it. Brady has been off for weeks. Sounds more like you making stuff up.

Welker is having a more impressive season because he is "carrying" the patriots and isn't getting any help.First of all, you forgot to qualify what Welker's season is more impressive than. If you're trying to make a point, you should generally address said point completely instead of just blurting out random stuff without context. I'm inferring we're talking about Calvin Johnson here...and a quick Google search about writers and looking through some of the posts here would tell you that it's not cut and dry and has little to do with Patriots fans hyping him up.


BTW Graham is in 2nd year in the NFL too and his 3rd year playing football, and he is faster than Gronk
It's cute how you just sort of added "and is faster than" like it means anything. DeSean Jackson is faster than just about every wide receiver in the league. Doesn't make him to best wide receiver in the league. Just adding that in there after the fact doesn't really do much.

By the way, Gronk is leading this poll fairly comfortably and there's all of 5 Patriots fans posting in this thread. Totally just silly Patriot homers.

cmarq83
10-21-2011, 01:16 PM
Another thing that is getting overlooked here is targets. Would Gronkowski's production be higher if he was in a different offense? Last year Tom Brady had an unreal high passer rating when throwing to Gronkowski (I think it was like 140). Since most of what he does within this offense is clear out linebackers and safeties so Hernandez, Branch, and Welker can do work underneath, I'm not really sure what his ceiling as a receiver actually is. It's wrong to assume though that he can't produce more than what he does now though.

Also, it's a big assumption to think that Graham will become an elite blocker. Blocking is about mentality as much as anything else. He probably won't get a ton of looks in New Orleans, but he has such a long way to go blocking wise to get on Gronk's level I don't think he'll ever make it. Neither of these guys are a finished product at this point despite what a lot of posters think.

Saints-Tigers
10-21-2011, 01:21 PM
Would Gronk's yards per catch go up with more targets? We can't assume anything, but for now we know that Graham is doing more damage down field and after the catch, and Gronk is blowing him away as a blocker.

As of now this is basically choosing elite receiver against elite TE, because Graham lines up outside and in the slot more than at TE, and he's utilized like a receiver.

Complex
10-21-2011, 01:24 PM
Haven't heard that one. Rodgers is the clear cut MVP and everyone knows it. Brady has been off for weeks. Sounds more like you making stuff up.



Nope, I forgot the name of the thread but tjsunstein probably remembers the name of the thread.


First of all, you forgot to qualify what Welker's season is more impressive than. If you're trying to make a point, you should generally address said point completely instead of just blurting out random stuff without context. I'm inferring we're talking about Calvin Johnson here...and a quick Google search about writers and looking through some of the posts here would tell you that it's not cut and dry and has little to do with Patriots fans hyping him up.



I never said that Calvin season was way more impressive than Welker's. I'm just saying that when its close race you guys make things up like Welker is carrying the patriots no one is helping him. He is the patriots MVP over Brady even though Brady was MVP in that MVP thread which turned into Brady vs Rodgers thread.



It's cute how you just sort of added "and is faster than" like it means anything. DeSean Jackson is faster than just about every wide receiver in the league. Doesn't make him to best wide receiver in the league. Just adding that in there after the fact doesn't really do much.

By the way, Gronk is leading this poll fairly comfortably and there's all of 5 Patriots fans posting in this thread. Totally just silly Patriot homers.

I added the faster part because some guy in this thread said Gronk is just as fast as Graham which he is not. I never said it wasn't a close race but when someone says this Graham's 3rd year playing football and he is already the receiving TE. You guys are like "OH yeah well this is Gronk's 2nd year in the NFL" like that is suppose to be more impressive than some guy who just started playing TE recently.You guys are being such homers.

Razor
10-21-2011, 01:26 PM
Haven't heard that one. Rodgers is the clear cut MVP and everyone knows it. Brady has been off for weeks. Sounds more like you making stuff up.
I actually said that a few weeks back. Back then I thought that Brady was more of a MVP than Rodgers, but that's clearly not the case anymore. But I fail to see how that's relevant in this discussion.

cmarq83
10-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Nope, I forgot the name of the thread but tjsunstein probably remembers the name of the thread.


You mean the one where we were discussing who should be MVP between a guy with 300 more passing yards and 1 more td, and leading his team to a 3-1 record with the a defense which was on pace to be the worst of all time

vs.

A guy who had 3 less int's and a passer rating 5 points higher while leading his team to a 4-0 record with the 31st ranked defense.

About 2/3 of non-homer fans picked Rodgers and the other 1/3rd picked Brady. Not all that homerish or outlandish at the time. We've seen MVP awards go to guys with worse stats before (Brees-Manning), and that was the argument. Nobody has said anything since Brady's stats have fallen off.

bigbluedefense
10-21-2011, 01:44 PM
I just remembered something. Doesn't Gronk have a spinal condition where his spine will narrow over time? That's why he fell in the draft no?

FlyingElvis
10-21-2011, 01:48 PM
I just remembered something. Doesn't Gronk have a spinal condition where his spine will narrow over time? That's why he fell in the draft no?

I don't recall anything more than speculation (and, of course, agent denial) that it was Spinal Stenosis. I imagine teams would have the ability to get that info under the medical clearance at the combine, but don't think there was ever public confirmation of what his back issue was.

CashmoneyDrew
10-21-2011, 01:49 PM
I have both on my fantasy team. Therefore, I win.

tjsunstein
10-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Just now are we putting stock in TEs blocking ability on this forum when evaluating the best.

tjsunstein
10-21-2011, 02:12 PM
You mean the one where we were discussing who should be MVP between a guy with 300 more passing yards and 1 more td, and leading his team to a 3-1 record with the a defense which was on pace to be the worst of all time

vs.

A guy who had 3 less int's and a passer rating 5 points higher while leading his team to a 4-0 record with the 31st ranked defense.

About 2/3 of non-homer fans picked Rodgers and the other 1/3rd picked Brady. Not all that homerish or outlandish at the time. We've seen MVP awards go to guys with worse stats before (Brees-Manning), and that was the argument. Nobody has said anything since Brady's stats have fallen off.
Quality of the team's defense still has no effect on who should be MVP and that was the base argument for Brady in that discussion.

cmarq83
10-21-2011, 02:32 PM
Quality of the team's defense still has no effect on who should be MVP and that was the base argument for Brady in that discussion.

Not getting into this again, but the stats were very close at the time. That could be a deciding factor. If you recall correctly I said I would have voted for Rodgers at the time. However, I brought up the debate because 2 seasons ago we had the exact same situation with Brees-Manning, but it doesn't really matter anymore does it?

Punisher
10-21-2011, 02:49 PM
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/19/195522.jpg

Back on subject

Caddy
10-21-2011, 06:39 PM
So if we're arguing Gronk v. Graham, Gronk has the "has only played x years" argument in his favor and also has a lot of room to improve while being the best all-around TE in the NFL already. I also don't buy that Graham is a better athlete or faster or a better receiver. Just because a higher percentage of the plays he's involved in have him running routes doesn't mean he's a better receiving TE.

Just saying...

I appreciate Graham as much as the next person, but the arguments made for Graham don't make sense to me because Gronk is more than capable of doing everything that Graham does and more.

The problem when comparing two amazing players is everyone gets really nitpicky. Both are awesome, but give me the guy with more potential.

nepg
10-22-2011, 12:21 AM
Just you mostly. Most of the Patriots fans think it's close, and a few have said Graham is more dangerous as a receiver.
I never said it wasn't close, just that Gronk is better. Because he is. The arguments I see for Graham are "he's young, he's raw, he's only being playing for x years, blah blah blah nothing football related". Well, Gronk is a lot younger, also still has a ton of raw potential, and just does more than Graham on top of being an elite receiving TE.

You can call me a homer until you're blue in the face, but I, frankly, don't give a ****. How does that help your argument? To me, it just makes it look like you gave up on actually bringing up relative points that aren't Gronk-countered.

Pats fans get called homers quite a bit around here in these types of discussions. Guess what, they're one of the best teams in the NFL because they have some of the best players in the NFL. Make sense?

Not like we're arguing for Josh Freeman over Aaron Rodgers or Kellen Winslow over Jimmy Graham or Mike Williams' season over Calvin Johnson's :|.

Flyboy
10-22-2011, 07:27 AM
Hmm, pretty sure I started a thread about the '10 TE class already.

With that said, homer or not, I'm going with Graham.

Rosebud
10-22-2011, 08:26 AM
*shrug* I'd take Gronk for the giants. We're not going to make a TE a top receiving option until we get a new coaching staff so I'd rather have the smarter guy who's a better blocker.

Still think Gresham ends up the best TE from this class, btdubs.

Just now are we putting stock in TEs blocking ability on this forum when evaluating the best.

*shrug* A lot of NFC East fans have been bringing up blocking in Witten/Gates debates.

Rabscuttle
10-22-2011, 10:01 AM
Potential has been brought up, but blocking is largely about desire and Gronk gets off on it. I really don't see Graham ever having the jam to take on people his size or bigger straight up and consistantly win his battle.

Jvig43
10-23-2011, 10:39 AM
I'm switching my vote to Graham after watching this espn interview with him. This could be the saddest thing I have ever heard.

DanZilla
10-23-2011, 11:26 PM
Graham lit it up today against the Colts. This guy is too beastly!

yo123
10-23-2011, 11:44 PM
I've honestly come back to this thread like 10 times now ready to vote and I change my mind every time. If you think it's cut and dry you're wrong.

FlyingElvis
11-22-2011, 10:57 AM
Homer says bump?

cmarq83
11-22-2011, 01:19 PM
Gronk's got a good shot at the TE TD record this year. He needs 4 more in 6 games to eclipse Gates's mark. Both guys have a shot at the yardage mark as well. Should be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.

LonghornsLegend
11-22-2011, 02:50 PM
Eh, I'm a sucker for really athletic pass catching TE's, always have been so give me Graham. Why would this poll close so fast? That said, not like there is a wrong answer here. It helps that both have elite QB's tossing them the ball in high octane offenses, not to take anything away from either.


I think it's a coin flip, but Graham looks like he could be a really good WR if that's where he played too.


Also, it may be hard to truly tell, but if I had to guess I'd venture to say with Graham's basketball background, and how little he's actually gotten to play the position, I think he's still gon a ton of room to get better.

MetSox17
11-22-2011, 03:09 PM
Gronk is so damn good.

FlyingElvis
11-22-2011, 03:51 PM
As each week passes and Gronk looks more and more unstoppable, I'm having a much harder time buying the "Graham is more athletic" argument. Gronk looked about as athletic as any great big man can be last night.

fenikz
11-22-2011, 03:55 PM
Uu2_18zfbpY

Gronko is no where near as athletic as Graham

FlyingElvis
11-23-2011, 10:26 AM
Uu2_18zfbpY

Gronko is no where near as athletic as Graham

I fail to see how Blaine's potty mouth supports your claim.

;)

eeth
12-06-2011, 09:45 PM
The Patriots are using biological warfare on opposing red zone defenses with the virus known as "Gronchitis."

GaMeTiMe
12-07-2011, 02:14 AM
Gronk is better, no bias. Graham is a better basketball player by far and therefore displays much more athletic ability, but what Gronk doesn't have there (and he's better than Graham in every other aspect of the TE position by a good amount) he more than makes up for in brute force and for lack of a better word, freakish-ness. He catches everything and tears up everything around him to get as close as possible to/into the endzone.

Graham is top 3 in the league but Gronk looks to be an all-time great at the position. It's not just the offense and Brady either, I think he's capable of actually making whoever their next QB is look almost as great as Brady has.

AntoinCD
12-07-2011, 06:48 AM
This TE class was absolutely frightening.

After a few more weeks I still have to go Gronk, all homerism aside.

Basically both guys are uncoverable and both are top 3 TEs in the NFL.

Graham is too long with great speed.

Gronk is too big and runs too good routes.

Gronk in the redzone though is unbelievable and his blocking puts him over the top. Possibly his best game of the year he only registered 3 catches.

If I could think of an apt comparison for Gronk it would be a cross between Randy Moss and Orlando Pace ;)

bigbluedefense
12-07-2011, 07:58 AM
I might have to change my vote to Gronk.

Graham is longer and more athletic, but he doesn't use his body the way Gronk does.

Gronk just bullies you. He just uses his size and strength to just rip the ball out of the air. He knows how to body up too. Plays a lot more physical.

Graham is more finesse. He doesn't engage the way Gronk does. He uses his speed and length, but he doesn't fight for separation the way Gronk does. He doesn't welcome contact after the catch the way Gronk does. Doesn't fight for YAC the same way.

It's almost like Gronk is fighting everything in his way to get open, he'll press you before you press him, he'll rip the ball out of the air, he'll engage in contact first, he'll body up, he'll run every step as hard as he can. He's just more intense.

This is such a tough call.

Raiderz4Life
12-07-2011, 08:33 AM
I love to get GRONK!!

Everybody get Gronk wit it

FUNBUNCHER
12-07-2011, 09:30 AM
It's rare that a TE can take over a game offensively, and both players IMO have that ability.
Graham to me is a big WR who can line up at TE, which is a huge advantage to an offense. Gronk is more in the classic mold of the complete NFL TE, but his athletic ability and skillset are still off the charts.

It's not that Gronk is a good blocker. He's elite period doing it. He's probably could play a few snaps at OT in a pinch. And it's not just that Gronkowski can 'run' routes and 'catch' the football. He's a mismatch for any single defender once he explodes into his route from the LOS.

His athleticism is underrated, and his complete package of strength/size/speed and catching ability, there aren't guys like him in the NFL.

When I watch Jimmy Graham I catch myself comparing him to Calvin Johnson and thinking at times he seems like the better WR.

It's really spitting hairs IMO because both these guys are rare, both have HOF upside.

It's odd to think you could make a legitimate case that BOTH of them in only their second year are nearly clear cut the two best TEs in the league.

Better than Gates. Vernon Davis. Olsen. Witten. Gonzalez. Finley. Winslow. Shockey.

I'm amazed how well Belichick identifies impact offensive skill position players other than traditional vertical WRs. If someone is a great possession WR, Belichick will scheme to kill an opponent with that player. If a RB is a great receiver, he'll do the same. And if he can collect a cadre of TEs who can be impact players in the passing game, he'll manufacture a passing attack utilizing their skills.

The only important question I still have is, why is ROB Gronkowski so much better than his brother DAN ?lol

BTW if either of these players had Martz as their OC nobody would know their names.

BaLLiN
12-07-2011, 05:23 PM
My question is, would you take Finley over one of these two?

Jvig43
12-07-2011, 05:35 PM
My question is, would you take Finley over one of these two?

Um..... **** no.

descendency
12-07-2011, 05:40 PM
Let's not turn this into a Packers' thread.

Basileus777
12-07-2011, 05:54 PM
My question is, would you take Finley over one of these two?

We need BOE to come in and tell us again how Finley dictates coverage like a prime Randy Moss.

AntoinCD
12-08-2011, 05:29 AM
My question is, would you take Finley over one of these two?

Finley is an athletic freak no doubt and an absolute matchup nigtmare but he makes too many mental errors and his production simply doesn't match his physical gifts

SolidGold
12-08-2011, 12:37 PM
My question is, would you take Finley over one of these two?

No, Finely drops the ball way to much and always looks for a flag/complains to the refs every time he drops a pass. Finley is the 10th best TE in the NFL at best.

nepg
12-08-2011, 12:47 PM
The only important question I still have is, why is ROB Gronkowski so much better than his brother DAN ?lol

Genetic luck, getting to learn from his older brothers' mistakes, and from simply working harder.

Saints-Tigers
12-08-2011, 07:47 PM
My question is, would you take Finley over one of these two?

Lmao!

Finley is a poor man's Graham, and you could take his best season in his 4 year career and it doesn't compare to what either Graham or Gronkowski has done this year.

Including Finley in this is a joke, and for my money, Graham and Gronkowski are the two best TE's in the league pretty clearly right now.

TACKLE
12-08-2011, 07:57 PM
No, Finely drops the ball way to much and always looks for a flag/complains to the refs every time he drops a pass. Finley is the 10th best TE in the NFL at best.

Try 3rd best. He's the most dangerous JOKER in the league.

Saints-Tigers
12-08-2011, 08:07 PM
No TE in the game is better at lining up at receiver than Graham is right now.

LonghornsLegend
12-08-2011, 08:37 PM
Finley has got a long way to go before he can be mentioned along with guys like these. Physically and athletically sure, but his consistency, attitude, and quite honestly just being a smart football player I'd say he's sub par in. Granted, the other 2 get thrown the ball alot more, but right now he's still dropping way too many easy passes and that's a big knock vs a TE who is supposed to be a safety valve for any QB.


Physically he's as gifted as anyone in the league though and he's just as tough to cover, Graham and Gronk are just destroying the NFL right now though and it's amazing to watch.

niel89
12-08-2011, 08:42 PM
The nice thing is both players have great QBs who can get them the ball consistently.

Complex
12-08-2011, 08:44 PM
I wonder how good Jared Cook really is or how good he could be if he played in a place where catching the ball was more important than blocking.

Saints-Tigers
12-08-2011, 09:10 PM
Was Finley injured for combine/pro day?

DanZilla
12-08-2011, 11:41 PM
Was Finley injured for combine/pro day?
No one cares; this the Graham vs Gronk thread.

The nice thing is both players have great QBs who can get them the ball consistently.
I wonder how they would do without having 2 of the best QB's in the league. Its going to be a fun next few years with all these great TE's playing well.

Saints-Tigers
12-09-2011, 04:35 PM
^^ I'm just wondering, because he's clearly not as big or as explosive as Graham, and can't match his production, yet people still say stuff like "He's just as athletic as anyone" when he clearly isn't.

Razor
12-09-2011, 04:45 PM
EDIT: nevermind...

ElectricEye
12-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Interesting stuff on Gronk courtesy of Mike Reese of ESPN Boston;

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4711831/closer-look-at-gronks-production

Jeremy Lundblad of ESPN's Stats & Information department writes on tight end Rob Gronkowski in a piece now posted on ESPNBoston.com (link here). Lundblad puts Gronkowski's impressive production over the last two seasons in perpective.

A few of the statistical nuggets from Lundblad's piece:

1. Perhaps most stunning of all is what happens in the end zone. Brady has targeted Gronkowski 18 times in the end zone during his career. Of those 18, 16 have been completed for touchdowns. For comparison, Brandon Marshall has been targeted 29 times in the end zone since 2010. He has caught three of them.

2. If you look at only passes targeted to Gronkowski, Tom Brady has a 139.1 NFL passer rating since the start of 2010. Only the Aaron Rodgers-Jordy Nelson combo (143.4) has a higher rating in that span.

3. Gronkowski is already just the second tight end in NFL history with back-to-back seasons of 10 touchdowns, joining Antonio Gates. Gronkowski's 23 touchdown receptions match Gates' record for a tight end in the span of two seasons.

4. Since the merger, Gronkowski's 23 receiving touchdowns are currently tied for the second-most through two seasons. Only Randy Moss had more, with 28. Gronkowski is also two away from tying "Bullet" Bob Hayes' total of 25 in his first two seasons in the AFL.

The red zone and QB rating things stand out in particular as amazing stuff...along with Brandon Marshall's shortcomings haha.

descendency
12-09-2011, 09:50 PM
^^ I'm just wondering, because he's clearly not as big or as explosive as Graham, and can't match his production, yet people still say stuff like "He's just as athletic as anyone" when he clearly isn't.

He's a top 3 red zone threat in the NFL, but he isn't going to make break away plays in the open field like Aaron Hernandez can. I really haven't seen enough of Jimmy Graham (don't watch many Saints games), but I imagine from his description that Graham can make those plays, too.

Raiderz4Life
12-10-2011, 12:49 AM
^^ I'm just wondering, because he's clearly not as big or as explosive as Graham, and can't match his production, yet people still say stuff like "He's just as athletic as anyone" when he clearly isn't.

Gronk and Graham are about the same size...if anything Jimmy has an inch on Gronk and Gronk has 5 or 10lbs on Jimmy.

Gronk's production is just as good...has a few more TDs and about 100 yards less.

This is assuming you're talking Gronk vs Jimmy and not Finley or something.

Saints-Tigers
12-10-2011, 01:19 AM
I was talking about Finley....

Gronk is a top 1 redzone target for my money. Maybe behind Calvin Johnson, I could be swayed either way.

WCH
12-10-2011, 04:27 AM
Try 3rd best. He's the most dangerous JOKER in the league.

Third best seems pretty fair. I certainly wouldn't put him ahead of Gronk or Graham. Still, Finley is one of the most important parts of GBs offense. Without Finley, teams could go cover-2 against GB and slow their offense down considerably. With Finley, McCarthy taking his foot off the gas is the only thing slowing down their offense.

Rodgers is clearly more important to GB's offense, but I don't think anybody else is (not even Jordyzzzz).

Saints-Tigers
12-10-2011, 04:42 AM
Vernon Davis is better than Finley by a fair margin. Jason Witten still is better. That's off the top of my head, I'd take at least 5 guys over him.

FUNBUNCHER
12-10-2011, 07:44 AM
Not to 'jack this thread with props for Finley, but when healthy in GB's offense he's essentially uncoverable because he has a WR skillset.

There are several IMO elite talent TEs currently playing in the NFL and a guy like Finley would either start or be a major contributor for nearly every team in the NFL.
Gronk and Graham happen to be playing at a level right now, because of their talent AND their offenses, that put them a couple steps higher than other NFL TEs.

But I don't think for one minute there aren't a handful of TEs who could come close to duplicating Gronkowski/Graham's production if they played for NO or NE.

SuperPacker
12-10-2011, 08:01 AM
Finley has way too many drops...

Raiderz4Life
12-10-2011, 01:15 PM
I was talking about Finley....

Gronk is a top 1 redzone target for my money. Maybe behind Calvin Johnson, I could be swayed either way.

Then disregard, just wasn't too sure lol

Saints-Tigers
12-10-2011, 04:08 PM
I don't think there are a handful of TE's that could get nearly 1100 yards in 12 games, or any that can tie the all time record for TD's in just 12 games. Graham and Gronkowski are doing things we'd have said was nearly impossible just last season.

FUNBUNCHER
12-10-2011, 08:10 PM
No TE that I know of is their offense's #1 target in the passing game. Maybe they wouldn't put up exactly the same numbers as Gronkowski, but it's the offense he's playing in AND his talent that's producing those numbers.

He wouldn't have half that production in Chicago. Or Cincinnati, among other teams.

descendency
12-10-2011, 10:17 PM
No TE that I know of is their offense's #1 target in the passing game.

Antonio Gates? (during his hayday)

Rabscuttle
12-11-2011, 09:42 AM
Eisen just said Gronk has "been chowing turf at an alarming rate"

So he has that aspect of his game going too.

Razor
12-11-2011, 12:35 PM
I think this debate was just settled by Gronk... What a play!

diabsoule
12-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Difference between Gronk and Graham:

If you want a tight end who has a certain beauty about his game, that can dazzle with extraordinary catches and sky for almost-too-high passes, who game time beauty is similar to that of a physical ballerina then you want Graham.

If you want a tight end that can stay in line and block like an offensive lineman or have him run paper crisp routes, flex his muscles like Arnold in Pumping Iron, and bring a ferocious passion for the game then you want Gronk.

Both are atypical tight ends but Graham, while he has a physicality to his game, isn't nearly as physical or complete a tight end like Gronk.

descendency
12-11-2011, 12:46 PM
Did you guys see that catch for the TD?

nepg
12-11-2011, 01:58 PM
This thread is done.

Razor
12-11-2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, there really isn't an argument against Gronk > graham right now. Wow... But Graham is very, very good. I just feel like Gronk is better.

J-Mike88
12-11-2011, 02:23 PM
I am SICK of GRONKOWSKI!!!!!

But if only I had drafted the guy in my leagues, I'd love the guy!

Graham is great too. How did they not rule that a TD he had today, he had 2 feet in bounds.

ElectricEye
12-11-2011, 03:50 PM
Gronk is on pace to walk away with both the single season touchdown record and the yardage record for a tight end, with Graham on pace for the yardage record as well. Really think you can make the argument that Gronk is having one of the best seasons ever at the position between the insane receiving production and how valuable he is in both pass protection and run blocking.

descendency
12-11-2011, 06:21 PM
Gronk is on pace to walk away with both the single season touchdown record and the yardage record for a tight end, with Graham on pace for the yardage record as well. Really think you can make the argument that Gronk is having one of the best seasons ever at the position between the insane receiving production and how valuable he is in both pass protection and run blocking.

Gronkowski has 25 TDs in his first 2 seasons with 3 games to go. The NFL record is held by Randy Moss with 28.

StickSkills
12-11-2011, 08:13 PM
I took Tony G in my fantasy league... Week 8 rolls around and he has a bye so I look and see the Gronk was dropped by someone. Been riding Gronk for the rest of the season.

Vox Populi
12-11-2011, 08:14 PM
I took Tony G in my fantasy league... Week 8 rolls around and he has a bye so I look and see the Gronk was dropped by someone. Been riding Gronk for the rest of the season.

Blatant lie.

wogitalia
12-11-2011, 08:30 PM
Or worst league ever.

TACKLE
12-11-2011, 08:35 PM
Jimmy Graham needs 190 yards over the next three games to break the single season TE yards record. Crazy to think that both the yards and TD record could very well be broken in the same season by two different players nonetheless.

J-Mike88
12-11-2011, 08:44 PM
Jimmy Graham needs 190 yards over the next three games to break the single season TE yards record. Crazy to think that both the yards and TD record could very well be broken in the same season by two different players nonetheless.
And Rodgers could break the passing TD record, the passer rating record, and Brees and Brady could break the passing yardage record.

Bottom line is great QBs are passing more than ever, apparently, and getting more big chunks of yardage ever.

Saints-Tigers
12-11-2011, 08:59 PM
I like how Aaron Rodgers made his way in here, even though he won't break the record, and Gronkowski already smashed the old one, and Jimmy Graham is a virtual lock, barring injury.

wogitalia
12-11-2011, 09:04 PM
Bottom line is great QBs are passing more than ever, apparently, and getting more big chunks of yardage ever.

As a consequence a few guys also have a shot at the Sacks record!

Razor
12-12-2011, 07:01 AM
Jimmy Graham needs 190 yards over the next three games to break the single season TE yards record. Crazy to think that both the yards and TD record could very well be broken in the same season by two different players nonetheless.

The really crazy thing here is that Gronk has nine catches less than Graham and is only 13 receiving yards behind Graham, translating to a YPC that is 1.5 higher than Graham's. At this rate Gronk will surpass Graham and take both the receiving yards and TD record in the same season.

FUNBUNCHER
12-12-2011, 08:33 AM
Gronk is taking advantage of his opportunities but outside of Welker/Hernandez/Gronkowski, it's like the Pats don't have anyone to throw the ball to.

The Saints have quality WRs taking catches away from Graham and he's still producing at a record pace.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
12-12-2011, 09:03 AM
Gronk is taking advantage of his opportunities but outside of Welker/Hernandez/Gronkowski, it's like the Pats don't have anyone to throw the ball to.

The Saints have quality WRs taking catches away from Graham and he's still producing at a record pace.

fail point is fail.

Saints-Tigers
12-12-2011, 09:09 AM
Gimme a ****** break. I'm so sick of people pretending Henderson, Meachem and Lance Moore are these ridiculous supporting cast.

ncst8fan83
12-12-2011, 09:21 AM
And Rodgers could break the passing TD record, the passer rating record, and Brees and Brady could break the passing yardage record.

Bottom line is great QBs are passing more than ever, apparently, and getting more big chunks of yardage ever.

That tends to happen when DB's can't breathe on WR's and no one can touch a QB without a 15 yard penalty (unless your QB sucks, and then you just have to deal with it).

AntoinCD
12-12-2011, 09:21 AM
Gronk is taking advantage of his opportunities but outside of Welker/Hernandez/Gronkowski, it's like the Pats don't have anyone to throw the ball to.

The Saints have quality WRs taking catches away from Graham and he's still producing at a record pace.

Not to **** all over your theory here, but the Saints have 2 receiving options with over 50 catches, the Patriots have 3. The Pats also a receiving option with 100 catches, and it's not Gronk. Deion Branch also has 48 catches for the year.

The Saints have 4 guys with 40 or more catches. The Patriots have 4 guys with 40 or more catches.

Let's not make this out that the Saints have 10 or so guys who can catch and the Pats have 3

Jvig43
12-12-2011, 10:11 AM
And Rodgers could break the passing TD record, the passer rating record, and Brees and Brady could break the passing yardage record.

Bottom line is great QBs are passing more than ever, apparently, and getting more big chunks of yardage ever.

You do realize it's posts like this, that have nothing to do with the thread, are why everyone on this board hates packer fans right? And no it's not because were jealous of you guys winning the super bowl.

Now back to the actual topic, teams are really going to need to focus more on Gronk when trying to stop our offense. He clearly has become Brady's favorite target, Brady threw to him virtually every chance he could yesterday. Linebackers right now just aren't going to be able to stay on him.

Saints-Tigers
12-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Not to **** all over your theory here, but the Saints have 2 receiving options with over 50 catches, the Patriots have 3. The Pats also a receiving option with 100 catches, and it's not Gronk. Deion Branch also has 48 catches for the year.

The Saints have 4 guys with 40 or more catches. The Patriots have 4 guys with 40 or more catches.

Let's not make this out that the Saints have 10 or so guys who can catch and the Pats have 3

It's a ****** theory. The Saints have so many weapons taking passes away that Graham is second in the league in catches? He is 20 catches behind the league leader, who happens to be on Gronk's team... LMAO

This week really skewed the argument though, Gronk had a monster game and Graham didn't even go through warmups, and played with a visible limp.

FUNBUNCHER
12-12-2011, 10:38 AM
Gimme a ****** break. I'm so sick of people pretending Henderson, Meachem and Lance Moore are these ridiculous supporting cast.

You left out Colston.

I think the Saints have one of the best WR corps in the NFL, off the top of my head 2nd only to the Packers.

More WRs playing for the Saints have the ability to eat up one on one coverage than almost anyone playing for the Patriots.

The Saints have five players with 40+ catches, and three players with 50+ catches. Henderson and Meachem don't have 40 catches a piece and they're still weapons.

The Pats have; Welker with 100 catches, Gronk/71, Hernandez/59, Branch/48, and that's it.

It's not comparable.

AntoinCD
12-12-2011, 10:50 AM
You left out Colston.

I think the Saints have one of the best WR corps in the NFL, off the top of my head 2nd only to the Packers.

More WRs playing for the Saints have the ability to eat up one on one coverage than almost anyone playing for the Patriots.

The Saints have five players with 40+ catches, and three players with 50+ catches. Henderson and Meachem don't have 40 catches a piece and they're still weapons.

The Pats have; Welker with 100 catches, Gronk/71, Hernandez/59, Branch/48, and that's it.

It's not comparable.

And the Patriots have more WRs who can dominate zone coverage better than the Saints.

I agree the Saints have a top receiving corps in the league and if you were comparing them to someone like the Browns or Vikings then your point would be valid. But the Patriots have a top 3 receiving corps(not talent wise but scheme and production wise) so I don't see the arguement

FUNBUNCHER
12-12-2011, 10:54 AM
It was a half baked theory.
I didn't realize Graham was second in receiving for the entire league.

But I do think Brady as usual is doing more with less.
If you gave Brady the weapons Drew Brees has, the Pats might be averaging 40 ppg.

saintsfan912
12-12-2011, 10:59 AM
Can't forget about Sproles (74 catches) and Pierre Thomas(43 catches) out of the backfield making catches.

Da-Phins
12-12-2011, 11:32 AM
All bow down to Gronk, the best TE in the game. The dude cant be stopped.

Sloopy
12-12-2011, 11:43 AM
As a consequence a few guys also have a shot at the Sacks record!

I doubt it happens. Allen is the closest needing 5 sacks in 3 games, it isn't that it couldn't be done, I would just be shocked

FlyingElvis
12-12-2011, 11:59 AM
I still think Graham is incredibly talented but the only word that really does justice to Gronkowski right now is "unstoppable." He literally looks like a guy who simply refuses to let defenders stop him from getting separation, making the catch, and then running wherever the hell he wants with it from there.

He makes Chuck Norris look soft.

ElectricEye
12-12-2011, 12:02 PM
I still think Graham is incredibly talented but the only word that really does justice to Gronkowski right now is "unstoppable." He literally looks like a guy who simply refuses to let defenders stop him from getting separation, making the catch, and then running wherever the hell he wants with it from there.

He makes Chuck Norris look soft.

NQ5ADsQi1bQ

I feel like this post needed video evidence.

TimmG6376
12-12-2011, 12:05 PM
I feel like this post needed video evidence.

That is the NFL version of getting posterized.

descendency
12-12-2011, 12:42 PM
That is the NFL version of getting posterized.

Nah. This is.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Gronk-Record-TD-628x322.jpg

Jvig43
12-12-2011, 12:43 PM
I was a fan of the second TD catch and run which I couldn't find a video of.

Bengalsrocket
12-12-2011, 12:49 PM
I feel like this post needed video evidence.

If I were Tom Brady, I'm not sure I would throw the ball to anyone else after that.

FUNBUNCHER
12-12-2011, 02:51 PM
So embarrassing.

nepg
01-01-2012, 05:31 PM
So Gronk took the TE yards record. GG, Jimmy Graham.

For some reason, the ticker at the bottom of the screen felt the need to display that Jimmy Graham owned the record, and then Gronk just went wild on the Bills.

Sloopy
01-01-2012, 10:25 PM
In the end, I think Gronk is an NFLDC poster and just wanted his poll selection to be right, so he made it undoubtedly clear...

jsagan77
01-01-2012, 10:50 PM
Gronkstoppable all the way... What a stud... The dude bangs porn chicks for fun, crushes your defenses soul for a living then smashes records just because he can. Jimmy who?

TACKLE
01-02-2012, 12:26 AM
So Gronk took the TE yards record. GG, Jimmy Graham.

For some reason, the ticker at the bottom of the screen felt the need to display that Jimmy Graham owned the record, and then Gronk just went wild on the Bills.

Because Jimmy Graham had the record. Bill then put Gronk with 1:30 left, up 28 points and made sure they threw him the ball so he could get the record. I'm really not trying to take anything away from him - I have no reason to. I'm a big fan of both guys. I'm just outlining what happened.

DBNYDP
01-02-2012, 12:43 AM
Honestly I don't think it is very close. Gronk is better after the catch because he is just a train. He's also actually a really good blocker, so that makes more of a multidimensional tight end whereas Jimmy Graham is more of a wide receiver who is playing TE (doing a damn good job though). But at the end of the day...Gronkowski has the total package. Great blocker, great separation ability, great at catching the ball, and great after the catch.

Basileus777
01-02-2012, 12:47 AM
Because Jimmy Graham had the record. Bill then put Gronk with 1:30 left, up 28 points and made sure they threw him the ball so he could get the record. I'm really not trying to take anything away from him - I have no reason to. I'm a big fan of both guys. I'm just outlining what happened.

Both teams did the same thing. The Saints put Graham back in to take back the record, and then the Pats returned the favor. No one really has the right to get indignant here.

TACKLE
01-02-2012, 12:52 AM
Both teams did the same thing. The Saints put Graham back in to take back the record, and then the Pats returned the favor. No one really has the right to get indignant here.

lol sorry for getting indignant. that was clearly my intention when i wrote that...

Basileus777
01-02-2012, 01:14 AM
lol sorry for getting indignant. that was clearly my intention when i wrote that...

Eh, I guess I was unclear. I wasn't directing it at you, just making a general statement.