PDA

View Full Version : Most Underrated Player


Breed
10-21-2011, 03:32 PM
I'm going with this guy...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y6VtNHQDFmQ/TJOKbeURqYI/AAAAAAAAAFU/BO1Msxyt908/s1600/matt-forte-ready-lgn.jpg

Matt Forte

How about you?

VernonLawson89
10-21-2011, 03:34 PM
Justin Smith

Breed
10-21-2011, 03:41 PM
Justin Smith

I actually agree, if he was on a "bigger" team he'd be talked about like Haolit Ngata

Raiderz4Life
10-21-2011, 03:45 PM
I actually agree, if he was on a "bigger" team he'd be talked about like Haolit Ngata

umm NO....Ngata is in a class of his own.

Pat Sims 90
10-21-2011, 03:47 PM
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/b5/fullj.c91af89cbe83cb6db0df976a76cd573a/c91af89cbe83cb6db0df976a76cd573a-getty-505666107.jpg

JBCX
10-21-2011, 03:48 PM
Trent Cole.

He's been one of the best 4-3 DEs of the past six years and should be talked about in the same sentence as guys like Justin Tuck and Julius Peppers, but he often gets little to no recognition from either guys on ESPN or the fans.

Breed
10-21-2011, 03:49 PM
umm NO....Ngata is in a class of his own.

I mean he'd be talked about, the average NFL fan doesn't even know his name.

JBCX
10-21-2011, 03:51 PM
umm NO....Ngata is in a class of his own.

Justin Smith is on par with Haloti Ngata. Easily.

Raiderz4Life
10-21-2011, 03:52 PM
Justin Smith is on par with Haloti Ngata. Easily.

You made me lol. Thank You.

Smith is good...I'll even say real good. But Ngata is the best DL in the league hands down and its not close.

JBCX
10-21-2011, 03:55 PM
You made me lol. Thank You.

Smith is good...I'll even say real good. But Ngata is the best DL in the league hands down and its not close.

According to Profootballfocus, Justin Smith is the #1 3-4 DE in the league right now, ahead of Ngata.

Smith gets more pressure on a per-play basis than Ngata in passing plays, and is rougly equivalent in terms of stopping the run.

Splat
10-21-2011, 03:56 PM
Justin Smith is on par with Haloti Ngata. Easily.

Child please.

abaddon41_80
10-21-2011, 03:58 PM
umm NO....Ngata is in a class of his own.

See, this is why Smith is underrated. All homerism aside, Justin Smith has been at least as good as Ngata since he came to the 49ers. In 2009 Smith was better hands down.

JBCX
10-21-2011, 04:02 PM
Just because he has a cool last name, was picked in the top 5 of the draft, and plays on a really good defense with a couple of future Hall of Fame teammates, does not necessarily mean that Haloti Ngata is some kind of god himself.

He's a good defensive lineman, but like Ndamonkong Suh, he is not a supremely dominant force. He's just really solid. There are a handful of guys in the NFL that are just as solid, Justin Smith being one of them.

Raiderz4Life
10-21-2011, 04:11 PM
Not a dominant force? You serious?

Ngata is an animal.

I'm not gonna sucked into your game...you're part of the troll pack.

J-Mike88
10-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Justin Smith is on par with Haloti Ngata. Easily.
F A L S E

What is Balderdash

Splat
10-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Just because he has a cool last name, was picked in the top 5 of the draft, and plays on a really good defense with a couple of future Hall of Fame teammates, does not necessarily mean that Haloti Ngata is some kind of god himself.

This is false.

Punisher
10-21-2011, 04:30 PM
This is false.

What is even funnier is that Justin Smith was drafted top 5(number 4) in the draft.

Google folks

tjsunstein
10-21-2011, 04:38 PM
No website can properly evaluate the impact of a DL. Or any player for that matter. This isn't baseball. Stats are suppose to support your case, not build it.

As far as the most underrated, that's tough. So I made an all underrated team for discussion purposes.

QB: Eli Manning, Giants
RB: Fred Jackson, Bills
WR: Jordy Nelson, Packers
WR: Jacoby Ford, Raiders
WR: Malcolm Floyd, Chargers
TE: Jason Witten, Cowboys
OL: Andrew Whitworth, Bengals
OL: Mike Iupati, 49ers
OL: Kyle Cook, Bengals

4-3 DE: Cliff Avril, Lions
4-3 DE: James Hall, Rams
3-4 DE: Justin Smith, 49ers
4-3 DT: Brandon Mebane, Seahawks
NT: Antonio Garay, Chargers; Kyle Williams, Bills
4-3 OLB: DJ Williams, Broncos
4-3 MLB: Paul Posluszny, Jaguars
3-4 OLB: Ryan Kerrigan, Redskins
3-4 ILB: AJ Hawk, Packers
3-4 ILB: Lawrence Timmons, Steelers
CB: Ike Taylor, Steelers
CB: Terrell Thomas, Giants
CB: Brent Grimes, Falcons
CB: Stanford Routt, Raiders
S: Danieal Manning, Texans

Roughly off the top of my head. I don't think these guys get enough respect, certainly not calling all of them all-pros.

tjsunstein
10-21-2011, 04:43 PM
Trolls are really stepping their game up here, and posters are giving in.

FUNBUNCHER
10-21-2011, 04:48 PM
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Brian+Orakpo+New+York+Giants+v+Washington+n86LcNoZ qrfl.jpg

Kerrigan is a rookie and really isn't underrated. His bookend is.

Jakey
10-21-2011, 04:50 PM
Im going to have to stick up for Ngata here...as much as i like Smith, i would rather play Smith every week of the season than play Ngata once!

His presence and dominance of o-linemen is what makes the difference, he might only make 1 tackle all game, but that doesnt account for him destroying 2 blockers and allowing the LB's to run free.

Smith is a very talented palyer, but his height/weight/speed/strength is nowhere near the class of Ngata's.

URGH, that was horrible to say!


GO STEELERS!
(thats better)

gpngc
10-21-2011, 04:52 PM
Chris Clemons is severely underrated. Last year everyone assumed he just lucked into a bunch of sacks but he's been amazing this season as well - even against the run.

jth1331
10-21-2011, 04:58 PM
http://gospellightminute.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Tim_Tebow_Broncos.jpg

Rosebud
10-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Trent Cole.

He's been one of the best 4-3 DEs of the past six years and should be talked about in the same sentence as guys like Justin Tuck and Julius Peppers, but he often gets little to no recognition from either guys on ESPN or the fans.

Cole's a great pass rusher, but he's still a weak run stuffer unlike those two. *shrug* Justin Tuck is a poor comparison because his run stuffing and versatility is what makes him so great and well known.

Eli Manning is the most under-rated Giant, he's so smart, clutch and it baffles me that he hasn't just beaten Kevin Killdrive up.

Rosebud
10-21-2011, 05:10 PM
No website can properly evaluate the impact of a DL. Or any player for that matter. This isn't baseball. Stats are suppose to support your case, not build it.

As far as the most underrated, that's tough. So I made an all underrated team for discussion purposes.

QB: Eli Manning, Giants
RB: Fred Jackson, Bills
WR: Jordy Nelson, Packers
WR: Jacoby Ford, Raiders
WR: Malcolm Floyd, Chargers
TE: Jason Witten, Cowboys
OL: Andrew Whitworth, Bengals
OL: Mike Iupati, 49ers
OL: Kyle Cook, Bengals

4-3 DE: Cliff Avril, Lions
4-3 DE: James Hall, Rams
3-4 DE: Justin Smith, 49ers
4-3 DT: Brandon Mebane, Seahawks
NT: Antonio Garay, Chargers; Kyle Williams, Bills
4-3 OLB: DJ Williams, Broncos
4-3 MLB: Paul Posluszny, Jaguars
3-4 OLB: Ryan Kerrigan, Redskins
3-4 ILB: AJ Hawk, Packers
3-4 ILB: Lawrence Timmons, Steelers
CB: Ike Taylor, Steelers
CB: Terrell Thomas, Giants
CB: Brent Grimes, Falcons
CB: Stanford Routt, Raiders
S: Danieal Manning, Texans

Roughly off the top of my head. I don't think these guys get enough respect, certainly not calling all of them all-pros.

I bolded the guys I see enough to really agree with you on. TT's really good but I'd say the giants' most under-rated defender is Michael Boley. If our DL didn't fall apart last season and he had kept his early season play up he'd have been all-pro caliber. The man can cover a lot of ground against the pass, is a good tackler if he doesn't need to battle lineman on every play and is just a missile on the blitz.

I'd also add some other bengals defenders in Peko and Atkins, would kill to have those two rotating with Canty and Joseph for my gmen.

Splat
10-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Tamba Hali.

Rosebud
10-21-2011, 05:21 PM
According to Profootballfocus, Justin Smith is the #1 3-4 DE in the league right now, ahead of Ngata.

Smith gets more pressure on a per-play basis than Ngata in passing plays, and is rougly equivalent in terms of stopping the run.

If all you're going to do is base your opinions on that one website why do you even bother sharing your opinion? If we wanted to we'd just go read that site ourselves. So whether or not they think Smith is better than Ngata doesn't matter unless you can explain exactly what their reasoning is because you can't really make a case for that outside of point to that one site.

JBCX
10-21-2011, 05:49 PM
Cole's a great pass rusher, but he's still a weak run stuffer unlike those two. *shrug* Justin Tuck is a poor comparison because his run stuffing and versatility is what makes him so great and well known.


Cole's a weak run stuffer? Really? One of the things that makes him a great DE is that he's equally as good at stuffing the run as he is at rushing the passer. He's not as good of a pure pass rusher as a Dwight Freeney, for example, but he makes up for it with his run defense. He's basically on par with Justin Tuck as a 4-3 DE, or even slightly ahead as a complete DE.

vidae
10-21-2011, 06:14 PM
It has to be Fred Jackson.

Rosebud
10-21-2011, 06:33 PM
Cole's a weak run stuffer? Really? One of the things that makes him a great DE is that he's equally as good at stuffing the run as he is at rushing the passer. He's not as good of a pure pass rusher as a Dwight Freeney, for example, but he makes up for it with his run defense. He's basically on par with Justin Tuck as a 4-3 DE, or even slightly ahead as a complete DE.

You're right, weak is an over-statement, but he's certainly not a standout run stuffer like Justin Tuck. Tuck actually shuts the run down on his side, Cole just does a solid job while blowing up some plays.

V.I.P
10-21-2011, 10:28 PM
Earnest Graham is pretty good.

BigBanger
10-21-2011, 10:36 PM
Just because he has a cool last name, was picked in the top 5 of the draft, and plays on a really good defense with a couple of future Hall of Fame teammates, does not necessarily mean that Haloti Ngata is some kind of god himself.
Wasn't Justin Smith a top 5 pick? And wasn't Ngata like #12? So ... Not really sure what angle you're going for there.

BRAVEHEART
10-21-2011, 10:40 PM
http://www.macombdaily.com/content/articles/2011/09/07/sports/doc4e67588fa1c361283928351.jpg
Corey Williams.

themaninblack
10-22-2011, 12:14 AM
I'm happy to see that Justin Smith is playing well out in SF I was a big fan of his when he was in town. Always thought he would be a very good 3-4 DE as opposed to a solid 4-3 DE. We basically ran him out of town because he said he would get 18 sacks his rookie year. I don't think he's on the same level as Ngata but he may be closer than some might think. Looks like hes tearing it up out there.

I would say that one of the most underrated players in the NFL is Andrew Whitworth. He is easily on par with Jake Long and I don't think it is even much of an exaggeration to say that he is better. I'm a homer for sure but he is definitely one of the top LTs in the game without question.

Another guy whos havin a big year for us is Andre Smith. Guy could possibly be the next Willie Anderson if he stays committed. Having a very good year so far and we desperately needed it.

Ngatachance92
10-22-2011, 12:32 AM
Hey JBCX suck a dick, Ngata is God.

shylo3716
10-22-2011, 12:43 AM
LeSean "Shady" McCoy

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Lesean+Mccoy+Philadelphia+Eagles+v+New+York+BW_-w7wAG-rl.jpg

bucfan12
10-22-2011, 01:07 AM
- Fred Jackson
- Ryan Fitzpatrick
- Jeremy Maclin
- Gerald McCoy: (People say he's a bust because they look at stats. Watch him play. Draws holding calls and disrupts plays. He's got 7 tackles for loss in 4 games).

V.I.P
10-22-2011, 01:10 AM
- Gerald McCoy: (People say he's a bust because they look at stats. Watch him play. Draws holding calls and disrupts plays. He's got 7 tackles for loss in 4 games).

+1

Tanard Jackson is also pretty underrated, top 5 Free Safety.

http://www.mkrob.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/jackson1.jpg

ATLDirtyBirds
10-22-2011, 10:14 AM
Andrew Whitworth. One of the best OTs in football.

And to give some props to my man, CB Brent Grimes. I'm not sure how well he'd fare outside of our off man/zone heavy scheme, but he's absolutely dynamite for us.

xooberon
10-22-2011, 10:46 AM
I know numbers aren't everything but in the last three and a bit seasons (not including playoffs) Justin Smith absolutely obliterates Ngata statistically speaking. He has 27 sacks, 40 QB hits and 143 (!) pressures compared to 11 sacks, 26 QB hits and 36 pressures.

Now this doesn't paint a full picture, they're obviously asked to do different things, Ngata is completely dominant against the run (although it's not like Smith is bad here) and he offers more scheme versatility, but it's very hard to ignore those numbers.

They're both equally dominant in their own ways imo.

DeepThreat
10-22-2011, 10:59 AM
Ahtyba Rubin is so underrated that he hasn't been mentioned yet.

BigBanger
10-24-2011, 04:31 AM
I know numbers aren't everything but in the last three and a bit seasons (not including playoffs) Justin Smith absolutely obliterates Ngata statistically speaking. He has 27 sacks, 40 QB hits and 143 (!) pressures compared to 11 sacks, 26 QB hits and 36 pressures.

Now this doesn't paint a full picture.

No it certainly doesn't because you're comparing a DE to a NT/DE. They are two totally different players and are asked to do two tally different things within their defense. Ngata is the most dominant interior linemen in the game and it's not even close. If you're going to compare him with anyone, make it a BJ Raji or Richard Seymour or Vince Wilfork type ... not a pass rushing DE.


As far as most underrated ... Forte is a monster and I agree with Breed. He is certainly up there. He is one of the elite RBs in football right now and people never seem to talk about him. And he's doing it behind a pretty terrible offensive line (they are solid run blockers though).


Joe Haden is an elite CB already. He's a shutdown player. Absolute monster. He doesn't have the name recognition yet and has gotten forgotten playing in Cleveland, but he's a stud and one of the top 5 CBs in the game. I also think Lardarius Webb is turning into a really good pro.


Paul Posluszny and Chad Greenway are both two of the best 43 LBs in the NFL right now. Both are very underrated.

fenikz
10-24-2011, 05:04 AM
Hyphen
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/LaRod+Stephens+Howling+Pittsburgh+Steelers+U1bW8cR wpufl.jpg
Bj-P0GFzPNQ

bigbluedefense
10-24-2011, 07:02 AM
Lance Briggs. The best 4-3 OLB in the league for years and never gets his due for it.

Tanard Jackson is a stud FS who nobody talks about.

Chris Snee is the best RG in football, not sure if he's underrated though.

Brian Orakpo is a top tier pass rusher who probably gets lumped into the 2nd tier by most fans

Genooooooooo <3

no bare feet
10-24-2011, 07:44 AM
Rubin for sure, Whitworth is a top 5 LT, Derrick Johnson arguably best ILB/MLB in the game

JBCX
10-24-2011, 08:08 AM
No it certainly doesn't because you're comparing a DE to a NT/DE. They are two totally different players and are asked to do two tally different things within their defense. Ngata is the most dominant interior linemen in the game and it's not even close. If you're going to compare him with anyone, make it a BJ Raji or Richard Seymour or Vince Wilfork type ... not a pass rushing DE.


Doesn't Ngata play 3-4 DE on the Ravens' line?

Thecollegedropout
10-24-2011, 08:19 AM
DE/NT Mike DeVito. I don't even think the casual Jet fan even knows who he is....then again he went undrafted and went to Maine so that may not have made him flashy to begin with. Regardless, he is solid vs the run and does enough on the D-Line to help the Jets defense. He makes the little plays that go unnoticed in every Jets game and is a player not many teams are very familiar with.

He or RG Brandon Moore would probably be the Jets most underrated player IMO.

Paul
10-24-2011, 09:14 AM
Surprised people are saying Witten is underrated. I thought most football fans were aware of his awesomeness. The man made 7 Pro Bowls for christ sake.

thenewfeature06
10-24-2011, 09:22 AM
Justin Smith is on par with Haloti Ngata. Easily.

Quit lieing to yourself.

wogitalia
10-24-2011, 10:05 AM
Just because he has a cool last name, was picked in the top 5 of the draft, and plays on a really good defense with a couple of future Hall of Fame teammates, does not necessarily mean that Haloti Ngata is some kind of god himself.

You realise that P. Willis is better than anyone on the Ravens defense not named Ngata right? Willis may actually have a case for being underrated sometimes!

Going to throw Greenway some love, BigBanger stole my thunder on it but he really is the only Viking that is underrated. Greenway may actually be our best player and most people probably don't even know he exists!

Everyone else on our team is either accurately rated or overrated outside of Greenway!

wogitalia
10-24-2011, 10:06 AM
Surprised people are saying Witten is underrated. I thought most football fans were aware of his awesomeness. The man made 7 Pro Bowls for christ sake.

He might still be underrated though which is scary. Seems to go missing whenever people talk about the best TE in the league when he probably has the best case of anyone!

thenewfeature06
10-24-2011, 10:41 AM
Witten has been like a top 3/5 TE his whole career almost.. underrated in what way?

I have always gave him his credit but I guess some people don't.

bigbluedefense
10-24-2011, 11:18 AM
There is no such thing as an underrated Cowboy. Bc any time any Cowboy player shows even a glimpse of being good, we hear about it non stop.

Recent examples: Mike Jenkins being crowned best CB in the East after his 2nd year, Martellus Bennett potentially being better than Witten, Felix Jones, and so on and so on and so on.

Having that said, I love me some DeMarcus Ware.

gsorace
10-24-2011, 11:23 AM
http://www.mensjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/contact0-13-548.jpg

DraftSavant
10-24-2011, 11:36 AM
Navarro Bowman and Sean Lee are two really impressive young linebackers.

Also, I remember reading Lesean McCoy vs. Jamaal Charles not even being "a debate" in that NFL versus thread awhle ago. He's developed into the most complete back in the NFL and is undoubtedly the best and most valuable player on Phildelphia (not saying much right now, but still).

Halsey
10-24-2011, 11:43 AM
If there was a way to objectively quantify how underrated a player is, I bet the most underrated player would be some team's starting center. Maybe even a center who's not a household name. How about someone like Scott Wells. He's started almost every game at center for the Packers for the last 6 years.

Jughead10
10-24-2011, 11:51 AM
Kevin Faulk always used to be the most underrated player in my mind.

prock
10-24-2011, 11:59 AM
If there was a way to objectively quantify how underrated a player is, I bet the most underrated player would be some team's starting center. Maybe even a center who's not a household name. How about someone like Scott Wells. He's started almost every game at center for the Packers for the last 6 years.

Josh Sitton is one of the best guards in the league.

Saints-Tigers
10-24-2011, 12:19 PM
There is no such thing as an underrated Cowboy. Bc any time any Cowboy player shows even a glimpse of being good, we hear about it non stop.

Recent examples: Mike Jenkins being crowned best CB in the East after his 2nd year, Martellus Bennett potentially being better than Witten, Felix Jones, and so on and so on and so on.

Having that said, I love me some DeMarcus Ware.


It's part of the reason the Cowboys get so unfairly criticized as being underachievers, when they probably were just overrated to begin with...

Edit: Remember a few years ago when DAllas had the greatest secondary ever according to some guy here? lmao.

bucfan12
10-24-2011, 01:53 PM
Im going to go with an offensive lineman. Davin Joseph, of Tampa Bay, has been quietly playing extremely well this year. What had impressed me was week 1 when he contained Suh 1 on1, and that's extremely hard to do. He's only gotten better as the seasons rolled on. One of Tampas few bright spots on offense.

xooberon
10-24-2011, 03:18 PM
No it certainly doesn't because you're comparing a DE to a NT/DE. They are two totally different players and are asked to do two tally different things within their defense. Ngata is the most dominant interior linemen in the game and it's not even close. If you're going to compare him with anyone, make it a BJ Raji or Richard Seymour or Vince Wilfork type ... not a pass rushing DE.


What? Justin Smith is not a "pass rushing DE", you make it sound like he's John Abraham, he's a 3-4 DE who plays almost every snap unlike Ngata who generally comes out of the game more often. And 3-4 DEs and 4-3 DTs are comparable to a certain extent, they're both working against interior lineman.

phlysac
10-24-2011, 08:00 PM
What? Justin Smith is not a "pass rushing DE", you make it sound like he's John Abraham, he's a 3-4 DE who plays almost every snap unlike Ngata who generally comes out of the game more often. And 3-4 DEs and 4-3 DTs are comparable to a certain extent, they're both working against interior lineman.

Yeah. Justin Smith plays DT whenever the 49ers are in a nickle or dime 4-man front.

Unbiased
10-24-2011, 08:02 PM
Im going to go with an offensive lineman. Davin Joseph, of Tampa Bay, has been quietly playing extremely well this year. What had impressed me was week 1 when he contained Suh 1 on1, and that's extremely hard to do. He's only gotten better as the seasons rolled on. One of Tampas few bright spots on offense.

I think his contract wipes out a little bit of how underrated he may be.

bucfan12
10-25-2011, 10:04 AM
I think his contract wipes out a little bit of how underrated he may be.

We'll see if he makes the pro bowl. Matt Millen pointed it out on NFC Playbook how this guy gets no recognition yet might be playing better than any guard in the NFL.

He got a huge contract yes, but so many "experts" claimed that he wasn
t good enough to be paid as the top G in the leauge. I think he's proving them wrong and I haven't seen anyone admitting to that.

gsorace
10-25-2011, 01:17 PM
Oh yeah, Aaron Maybin is leading the Jets in sacks with 3.

bigbluedefense
10-25-2011, 01:23 PM
Oh yeah, Aaron Maybin is leading the Jets in sacks with 3.

It's really sad that their sack leader only has 3 sacks.

It just shows you how good Ryan is, that he's able to create such a great defense with no pass rush at all.

If you look at the Jets defense player for player, they aren't all that talented. It's a bunch of good CBs, David Harris, and Rex Ryan's schemes.

BigBanger
10-26-2011, 12:22 AM
What? Justin Smith is not a "pass rushing DE", you make it sound like he's John Abraham, he's a 3-4 DE who plays almost every snap unlike Ngata who generally comes out of the game more often. And 3-4 DEs and 4-3 DTs are comparable to a certain extent, they're both working against interior lineman.
Smith absolutely is a pass rushing DE. He's been the most consistent pass rusher the 49ers have had for quite some time. There was a reason why he was taken in the top 5 of the NFL draft. Granted he's not an elite pass rusher, which I never alluded to him being, but he's a complete player and he plays the run very well, which is why he's been such a good fit in the 34 defense. He is a guy expected to notch 8 sacks a season. He has that type of ability. I don't know how I made him sound like John Abraham. That is an odd connection that you made.

But they are two totally different players, which was my point. Who plays more snaps has nothing to do with this conversation. Ngata was a 34 NT / 43 DT type player coming out of Oregon. His rugby background and athleticism has made him a good fit for the 34 DE position as well. He plays on the nose and at defensive end for Baltimore, but he's predominantly a run stuffer and a guy who is going to collapse the pocket as a pass rusher (not accumulate sacks). He's always has been a run stuffer. Smith has always been a guy thats good in both phases, but not elite in either phase. I didn't know that every pass rusher has to average 12 sacks a season to be called a pass rushing player.

Ngata is not a pass rushing linemen, so to compare their pass rushing stats is ludicrous and it does not prove anything; it certainly doesn't prove that Smith is a better player. To even begin to compare one player who's about 280 to 290 pounds to another players thats 320+ ... that alone is stupid. That alone should tell you that they are two completely different players.

As good as Justin Smith is, and he's been a Pro Bowl caliber linemen for the last three years straight, he is not as good as Ngata. Not even close.

XxXdragonXxX
10-26-2011, 12:49 AM
4-3 DT: Brandon Mebane, Seahawks


Mebane would be about #8 on my list of underrated Seahawks defenders.

1. Kam Chancellor, SS
2. Red Bryant, DE/DT
3. Chris Clemons, DE
4. Leroy Hill, OLB
5. David Hawthorne, MLB
6. Brandon Browner, CB
7. Earl Thomas, FS

Honestly I would say Mebane is slightly overrated.

Caulibflower
10-26-2011, 03:23 AM
Mebane would be about #8 on my list of underrated Seahawks defenders.

1. Kam Chancellor, SS
2. Red Bryant, DE/DT
3. Chris Clemons, DE
4. Leroy Hill, OLB
5. David Hawthorne, MLB
6. Brandon Browner, CB
7. Earl Thomas, FS

Honestly I would say Mebane is slightly overrated.

Love your sig. He's making a name for himself this year. He really stands out when you're watching the games, because he's so huge, swift and violent.

Caulibflower
10-26-2011, 03:32 AM
But I'll throw a name out there. Darrius Heyward-Bey.

The guy who was the subject of so many Oakland Jokes after they drafted him ahead of Crabtree is leading his team in receiving, and, slightly modified in consideration of the time he missed with a minor injury early this year, his game averages have him on pace for 77 catches for 1300 receiving yards. Nobody's talking about it. He's a major part of his offense, and he hasn't had a bad game all season. He hurt his week in practice after week one, and didn't play the next two weeks. The four games he's been back he hasn't had less than 82 receiving yards, averaging 96. He's playing really well. And all that was before he got Carson Palmer.

Ness
10-26-2011, 03:37 AM
I have to admit, Heyward-Bey is playing very well. I bet everything he heard when he was drafted with Crabtree apparently being the better receiver definitely got him motivated. Good for him.

By the way I'd like to say the 49ers own Navorro Bowman is playing very underrated right now. I think a lot of folks are going to find out how good this guy is very soon. He's playing arguably better than Patrick Willis. It's very hard to believe.

VernonLawson89
10-26-2011, 04:25 AM
http://www.49ers.com/assets/images/news/2011/01-January/011811-Bowman-Header.jpg

Ness
10-26-2011, 04:41 AM
Awesome photo. I can't believe we got Bowman in the 3rd round. Hopefully he keeps up his dominant play.

abaddon41_80
10-26-2011, 08:15 AM
Granted he's not an elite pass rusher, which I never alluded to him being,

Yes he is. The only player in the league with more QB pressures than Smith since 2009 is Demarcus Ware. Smith led the league in that stat in 2009, iirc.

Smith has always been a guy thats good in both phases, but not elite in either phase.

In fact, he is elite in both. Everyone thought that the 49ers run defense would take a huge blow when they lost Franklin in the offseason, well except 49er fans, but it didn't. That is because Franklin was completely a product of playing next to Smith.


As good as Justin Smith is, and he's been a Pro Bowl caliber linemen for the last three years straight, he is not as good as Ngata. Not even close.

Statements like this prove that Smith is underrated. I can understand putting Ngata ahead of him but saying it is not even close is ridiculous.

XxXdragonXxX
10-26-2011, 08:59 AM
Love your sig. He's making a name for himself this year. He really stands out when you're watching the games, because he's so huge, swift and violent.


Kam has quickly become my favorite player. He's a big hitter, but he makes sure to wrap up as well. He also doesn't blow coverage, and Lawyer taught him how to time a blitz perfectly. Just an all around great player. If he doesn't make the pro bowl I will be severely dissapointed.

T-RICH49
10-26-2011, 09:33 AM
Brandon Carr IMO does'nt get the love he deserves.he's just as good if not better then Flowers

Breed
10-26-2011, 01:44 PM
Brandon Carr IMO does'nt get the love he deserves.he's just as good if not better then Flowers

Is Carr really that good?

V.I.P
10-26-2011, 02:04 PM
I am still going with Tanard Jackson. Two games, and 2 picks so far! He's the broke mans' Ed Reed, He could've had a pick 6 if he didn't pull his hamstring (must likely due to a year long suspension)

http://www.joebucsfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/tjaxpickEngland.jpg

T-RICH49
10-26-2011, 03:20 PM
Is Carr really that good?

he has been that good.Carr has played just as well as Flowers has yet does'nt get the same type of credit

XxXdragonXxX
10-26-2011, 09:20 PM
I really like Brandon Carr. I'd be super excited if the Seahawks brought him in to replace Trufant.

thenewfeature06
10-27-2011, 06:28 PM
Carr is not Flowers..

Flowers first 2 years were above average.

vidae
10-27-2011, 06:29 PM
There is very little chance that we let Carr walk.

Splat
10-27-2011, 06:33 PM
I don't put Carr on the same level as Flowers but he isn't far off.

T-RICH49
10-27-2011, 07:48 PM
I don't put Carr on the same level as Flowers but he isn't far off.

ok maybe exxaggerated a bit but I still contend Carr is vastly underappreciated.thepeople outside of KC don't realize how good he is

Brent
10-27-2011, 07:55 PM
http://www.footballnewsnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/justin_smith.jpg

bored of education
10-27-2011, 07:57 PM
Justin Smith is not underrated by people who actually know and watch football.

Brent
10-27-2011, 07:59 PM
Justin Smith is not underrated by people who actually know and watch football.
yeah but that doesnt apply to 90% of people

bored of education
10-27-2011, 08:00 PM
who gives a poop about those people

Splat
10-27-2011, 08:50 PM
I judge players by their Madden ratings duh.

tjsunstein
10-28-2011, 12:16 AM
I judge players by their Madden ratings duh.
Oh nice, I use ESPN's fantasy football rankings.

BigBanger
10-28-2011, 01:18 AM
Yes he is. The only player in the league with more QB pressures than Smith since 2009 is Demarcus Ware. Smith led the league in that stat in 2009, iirc.



In fact, he is elite in both. Everyone thought that the 49ers run defense would take a huge blow when they lost Franklin in the offseason, well except 49er fans, but it didn't. That is because Franklin was completely a product of playing next to Smith.




Statements like this prove that Smith is underrated. I can understand putting Ngata ahead of him but saying it is not even close is ridiculous.
I just want to say that I was not bashing Smith. I think Smith is an excellent player and a Top 100 player, maybe even Top 50. I still don't think he's an elite run defender or an elite pass rusher. I think he's excellent in both phases and a player with no weaknesses. With that said, my intention of the original reply was not to bash Smith, but to simply say that one should not compare him to Ngata. And to specially point to pass rushing stats as some sort of evidence that Smith is better since both players play the same position? No, Ngata is predominantly a run stuffer. You don't compare pass rushers to run stuffers and compare pass rushing stats of two players like that and act like you have a case.

I also think there is one other linemen in Ngata's class. And that's Ware, who is technically a linebacker, but a guy I still consider a defensive end type (I would also consider Justin Tuck as an elite player). I don't underrate Smith. I think he's a great player in the 34 front, but I don't consider him an elite player. Ngata is elite. There are very few players in the NFL, regardless of position, that I would rate ahead of Ngata. I think he's a Top 5 player in the NFL.



Aaron Rodgers, QB, Packers
Tom Brady, QB, Patriots
Darrelle Revis, CB, Jets
Haloti Ngata, DL, Ravens
Calvin Johnson, WR, Lions
Troy Polamalu, SS, Steelers
DeMarcus Ware, OLB, Cowboys
Adrian Peterson, RB, Vikings
Nick Mangold, C, Jets
Joe Thomas, OT, Browns



Out of curiosity, since Smith is elite in every phase of the game in your eyes, how many defensive linemen would rate higher than him? If anyone?

abaddon41_80
10-28-2011, 07:02 AM
I just want to say that I was not bashing Smith. I think Smith is an excellent player and a Top 100 player, maybe even Top 50. I still don't think he's an elite run defender or an elite pass rusher. I think he's excellent in both phases and a player with no weaknesses. With that said, my intention of the original reply was not to bash Smith, but to simply say that one should not compare him to Ngata. And to specially point to pass rushing stats as some sort of evidence that Smith is better since both players play the same position? No, Ngata is predominantly a run stuffer. You don't compare pass rushers to run stuffers and compare pass rushing stats of two players like that and act like you have a case.

The sack and pressure numbers prove he is an elite pass rusher, and the past few years he has been the only legitimate pass rush threat on the team. He has as many QB pressures as Demarcus Ware the last two years and 14.5 sacks as a 3-4 defensive end. The 49ers run defense the past few years speaks for itself. Third in YPC in 2009, 2nd in 2010 and 5th this season. Between this season and last the 49ers lost three of their best run defenders in the front seven; Spikes, Lawson and Franklin, but the run defense hasn't missed a beat.

I also think there is one other linemen in Ngata's class. And that's Ware, who is technically a linebacker, but a guy I still consider a defensive end type (I would also consider Justin Tuck as an elite player). I don't underrate Smith. I think he's a great player in the 34 front, but I don't consider him an elite player. Ngata is elite. There are very few players in the NFL, regardless of position, that I would rate ahead of Ngata. I think he's a Top 5 player in the NFL.

So you think Tuck is better than Smith?


Aaron Rodgers, QB, Packers
Tom Brady, QB, Patriots
Darrelle Revis, CB, Jets
Haloti Ngata, DL, Ravens
Calvin Johnson, WR, Lions
Troy Polamalu, SS, Steelers
DeMarcus Ware, OLB, Cowboys
Adrian Peterson, RB, Vikings
Nick Mangold, C, Jets
Joe Thomas, OT, Browns


Out of curiosity, since Smith is elite in every phase of the game in your eyes, how many defensive linemen would rate higher than him? If anyone?

There is no one that I would definitely rate higher than him. He and Ngata have been pretty close the past few years so I would put them relatively equal, giving Smith the slight edge out of homerism.

BufFan71
10-28-2011, 08:24 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Jairus_Byrd.jpg/200px-Jairus_Byrd.jpg



doubt anyone knows who that is... But hes been amazing so far this season...

by far the best Open field tackling DB in buffalo ive seen since Antoine Winfield

bigbluedefense
10-28-2011, 08:24 AM
So is it too early to put Lamarr Houston's name on this list?

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
10-28-2011, 01:43 PM
Definitely not underrated, but Aaron Maybin has three sacks and three forced fumbles??? How's he playing, I guess Gholston is the bigger bust now.

tjsunstein
10-28-2011, 02:31 PM
Definitely not underrated, but Aaron Maybin has three sacks and three forced fumbles??? How's he playing, I guess Gholston is the bigger bust now.
11th overall and minimal production > 6th overall with no production

EvilNixon
10-28-2011, 03:45 PM
But I'll throw a name out there. Darrius Heyward-Bey.

The guy who was the subject of so many Oakland Jokes after they drafted him ahead of Crabtree is leading his team in receiving, and, slightly modified in consideration of the time he missed with a minor injury early this year, his game averages have him on pace for 77 catches for 1300 receiving yards. Nobody's talking about it. He's a major part of his offense, and he hasn't had a bad game all season. He hurt his week in practice after week one, and didn't play the next two weeks. The four games he's been back he hasn't had less than 82 receiving yards, averaging 96. He's playing really well. And all that was before he got Carson Palmer.

Whenever we made an effort to get Darrius the ball, he produced. ASo glad to see him getting love. Definitely a budding star.

EvilNixon
10-28-2011, 03:46 PM
So is it too early to put Lamarr Houston's name on this list?

He's been invisible all year.

vidae
10-28-2011, 03:53 PM
I'm going to throw out a homer nomination: Derrick Johnson. The guy is flat out beasting it, no other way to say it. He stopped Michael Bush on the goalline 4 straight times to stop a scoring drive by the Raiders and was just as good the two weeks before against the Colts and Vikings.

It's too bad he won't sniff a pro-bowl with the ILB talent in the AFC because he deserves to go.

EvilNixon
10-28-2011, 03:57 PM
Stopping Michael Bush on the goalline isn't that hard...he's a very mediocre short yardage back.


DJ is still a monster though.

BigBanger
10-28-2011, 04:13 PM
The sack and pressure numbers prove he is an elite pass rusher, and the past few years he has been the only legitimate pass rush threat on the team. He has as many QB pressures as Demarcus Ware the last two years and 14.5 sacks as a 3-4 defensive end. The 49ers run defense the past few years speaks for itself. Third in YPC in 2009, 2nd in 2010 and 5th this season. Between this season and last the 49ers lost three of their best run defenders in the front seven; Spikes, Lawson and Franklin, but the run defense hasn't missed a beat.
Again -- I'm beating a dead horse here -- but I think Smith is a great player. I don't think he's elite. When I think of elite pass rushers I think of Ware, Freeney, Mathis, Abraham, Allen, Harrison, Matthews, Hali, Wake and Suggs (I may be forgetting someone), but I don't think of Justin Smith although he is a very good pass rusher. You should really be having this argument with the guy that said he wasn't a pass rushing DE, which is what I called him.

We will have to agree to disagree.


So you think Tuck is better than Smith?
I think Tuck is the best defensive linemen in the NFL not named Ngata (if I have to exclude Ware). He's the prototype for 43 defensive ends. There's a good reason why his name is mentioned in the draft section every year as much as any other player in the NFL. Every prospect that shows a hint of run stuffing ability or versatility is compared to Tuck. There's 5 or 6 defensive ends every year that are called "the next Just Tuck." Nobody does what he does. He impacts that defensive line as much as any other player in the NFL. I put him in Ngata's class because Ngata does that as well, maybe even to a greater degree.


There is no one that I would definitely rate higher than him. He and Ngata have been pretty close the past few years so I would put them relatively equal, giving Smith the slight edge out of homerism.
I have a very hard time calling Justin Smith the best defensive linemen in football.

abaddon41_80
10-28-2011, 05:44 PM
Just out of curiosity, what defensive lineman would you say is better than Smith?

BigBanger
10-28-2011, 06:25 PM
Just out of curiosity, what defensive lineman would you say is better than Smith?
Haloti Ngata, DL, Ravens
Justin Tuck, DE, Giants
Jared Allen, DE, Vikings
Vince Wilfork, NT, Patriots
Dwight Freeney, DE, Colts


Haloti Ngata is as dominant a force as the game has seen from the inside since Kris Jenkins. Now that he's becoming more of a pass rushing threat, he's no longer one dimensional.

Jared Allen is on pace for a career year. He might be the defensive player of the year on a losing team if he keeps this pace up. He is coming off the first down season of his career where he still managed 11 sacks last year. He was an All-Pro player three straight years before that (07-09) and he's well on his way this year. That will be 4 of out of the last 5 seasons as being an All-Pro player.

Dwight Freeney is having a bit of a down season, but 2009 was one of the best years of his career and he was great last year as well. Based on this year alone, you could argue that Smith is currently the better player, but Freeney has always been one of the most feared pass rushers I've ever seen. Against Pittsburgh he showed how he can almost single handedly get a team a win against a team they had no business beating.

Vince Wilfork has been a stalwart at nose tackle since he entered the league. He's been the best nose tackle in the game for years.




When Julius Peppers is motivated he's about as dominant and as game changing a player as any defensive player in the league. Since he doesn't always play up to is ability, I tend to knock him down a bit. The sack numbers don't show it, but he had one of the best seasons of his career last year.

thegreatone
10-28-2011, 06:48 PM
Greg Jennings.

abaddon41_80
10-28-2011, 07:11 PM
I guess I could see the argument for Wilfork, Allen, Ngata and Tuck, though at this point Smith is undoubtedly better than Freeney and that is based on 2009, when Smith was the best defensive lineman in the league, until now. Smith is easily in the same class as all of those guys, and every metric as well as watching the games supports that statement. To say he isn't is underrating him. Not as much as people who don't even know who he is but still be a lot.

J-Mike88
10-28-2011, 07:13 PM
Greg Jennings.
Good call.
I think Rodgers is awesome and all, but I believe the receivers, especially Jennings, don't get the credit they deserve.
His routes are amazing. He's quick, and he gets deep.
Plus he's a class act. The opposite of a Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Meshawn Johnson attitude.

In general, I think the good offensive linemen are the most underrated, as are the DTs who stuff runs but aren't primary sack-masters.
Ours is clearly Ryan Pickett.

Rob S
10-28-2011, 07:47 PM
Good call.
I think Rodgers is awesome and all, but I believe the receivers, especially Jennings, don't get the credit they deserve.
His routes are amazing. He's quick, and he gets deep.
Plus he's a class act. The opposite of a Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Meshawn Johnson attitude.

In general, I think the good offensive linemen are the most underrated, as are the DTs who stuff runs but aren't primary sack-masters.
Ours is clearly Ryan Pickett.

Its just really tough to evaluate receivers when they are placed in a great situation. Jennings gets credit though. He is a great player and people view him that way (the people I know anyway). Jordyz I would say you probably have more of a case, but that leads me back to the first sentence above.

Don Vito
10-28-2011, 07:49 PM
Kyle Williams is still pretty underappreciated. He was an absolute animal last season.

tjsunstein
10-28-2011, 10:53 PM
Its just really tough to evaluate receivers when they are placed in a great situation. Jennings gets credit though. He is a great player and people view him that way (the people I know anyway). Jordyz I would say you probably have more of a case, but that leads me back to the first sentence above.
Jordy Nelson is underrated. I said that on the first page. All Jordyzzz jokes aside, I think he's a top 25 WR in the NFL. He runs great routes, and makes a ton of plays after the catch. Just because his QB puts the ball where he's able make the catch shouldn't be held against him but I guess you have to be an above average player on a bad team that makes you underrated. If you're an above average player on a good team, you're overrated?

Rosebud
10-28-2011, 11:10 PM
Kyle Williams is still pretty underappreciated. He was an absolute animal last season.

Last year wasn't the first time he could legitimately challenge Ngata for title of best 3-4 Lineman...

Breed
10-29-2011, 01:34 AM
So is it too early to put Lamarr Houston's name on this list?

I agree, this guy gets no attention what so over.

J-Mike88
10-29-2011, 09:01 AM
I guess you have to be an above average player on a bad team that makes you underrated. If you're an above average player on a good team, you're overrated?
That's classic.

Rob S
10-29-2011, 09:29 AM
Jordy Nelson is underrated. I said that on the first page. All Jordyzzz jokes aside, I think he's a top 25 WR in the NFL. He runs great routes, and makes a ton of plays after the catch. Just because his QB puts the ball where he's able make the catch shouldn't be held against him but I guess you have to be an above average player on a bad team that makes you underrated. If you're an above average player on a good team, you're overrated?

No, the point is that it is damn tough to tell sometimes. Especially with WRs in a pass heavy offense with a fantastic QB and good OL.

tjsunstein
10-29-2011, 11:12 AM
No, the point is that it is damn tough to tell sometimes. Especially with WRs in a pass heavy offense with a fantastic QB and good OL.
It was just a general statement not pertaining solely to the Jordy Nelson example. Same can be said about a lot of players. If you're a RB putting up good numbers behind a good offensive line, then you're looked at as a product of your offensive line instead of your own running. Same can be said for just about any other position on the field if that team has a strength and said player isn't particularly known as one of those strengths. I find it unfair when players get 'docked', if you will, for having surrounding talent. As long as they capitalize on their opportunities, what more can you judge them by? It's not like he routinely drops passes (James Jones) or calls for attention in the media (Jermichael Finley). He goes out there and produces but someone else seems to get the credit for his numbers, whether it be Rodgers or the system.

Rob S
10-29-2011, 04:07 PM
It was just a general statement not pertaining solely to the Jordy Nelson example. Same can be said about a lot of players. If you're a RB putting up good numbers behind a good offensive line, then you're looked at as a product of your offensive line instead of your own running. Same can be said for just about any other position on the field if that team has a strength and said player isn't particularly known as one of those strengths. I find it unfair when players get 'docked', if you will, for having surrounding talent. As long as they capitalize on their opportunities, what more can you judge them by? It's not like he routinely drops passes (James Jones) or calls for attention in the media (Jermichael Finley). He goes out there and produces but someone else seems to get the credit for his numbers, whether it be Rodgers or the system.

Yeah, no doubt. My point is just that sometimes it is right to dock player for their system or surrounding talent. This is obviously an extreme example, but was Olandis Gary ever a good NFL RB talent wise.....not really, he sucks, but in that Denver scheme he goes for 1000. Its just tough sometime, especially with skill position guys, is all I'm saying.

Raiderz4Life
10-29-2011, 04:31 PM
Just out of curiosity, what defensive lineman would you say is better than Smith?

Ngata is #1 by a good margin imo.

Jared Allen would be my no. 2.

Wilfork 3.

Tuck at 4.

Smith would probably be my no. 5

LonghornsLegend
10-29-2011, 04:42 PM
Stephen Bowen. By next year he'll be a much bigger household name when people begin to talk about 3-4 DE's.


Jason Hatcher too. He got hurt which slowed him down but guarantee this guy is well on his way to becoming a stud. Rob Ryan uses him perfectly.

Rosebud
10-29-2011, 05:44 PM
Ngata is #1 by a good margin imo.

Jared Allen would be my no. 2.

Wilfork 3.

Tuck at 4.

Smith would probably be my no. 5

This list needs more Kyle Williams and Julius Peppers, that man was the best DE in football last year.

Raiderz4Life
10-29-2011, 05:55 PM
This list needs more Kyle Williams and Julius Peppers, that man was the best DE in football last year.

****....how did I forget Peppers. I feel ashamed as I've always been a Peppers fan lol.

Put Peppers at 2 and bump everyone down 1 spot and Kyle williams at 5 bumping Smith to 6.

Thx for the correction there.

Rosebud
10-29-2011, 06:04 PM
I'm not the biggest Peppers fan myself, but when he's motivated he dominates and last year he was motivated and healthy.

And no problem babe, I got your back ;-)

phlysac
10-29-2011, 06:28 PM
****....how did I forget Peppers. I feel ashamed as I've always been a Peppers fan lol.

Put Peppers at 2 and bump everyone down 1 spot and Kyle williams at 5 bumping Smith to 6.

Thx for the correction there.

I think this illustrates the point about Justin Smith...

Kyle Williams is criminally underrated but there is NO WAY he's more dominant on the football field than Justin Smith.

It's ok to admit to not watching the 49ers play. They've been terrible, beyond terrible, for years. But Justin Smith is sickening. He's a 3-4 DE, whom although the majority don't collect "stats" he manages to be a stalwart on one of the best run D's in the NFL the last 5 seasons, and he has nearly as many QB pressures as the top 4-3 DE's.

It's really unheard of to be honest.

Rosebud
10-29-2011, 06:36 PM
I think this illustrates the point about Justin Smith...

Kyle Williams is criminally underrated but there is NO WAY he's more dominant on the football field than Justin Smith.

It's ok to admit to not watching the 49ers play. They've been terrible, beyond terrible, for years. But Justin Smith is sickening. He's a 3-4 DE, whom although the majority don't collect "stats" he manages to be a stalwart on one of the best run D's in the NFL the last 5 seasons, and he has nearly as many QB pressures as the top 4-3 DE's.

It's really unheard of to be honest.

*shrug* Smith has also gotten a lot more help from his fellow lineman and lb corps than Kyle Williams has from his and Williams plays all along the line whereas Smith doesn't. That's not to say Smith suck or anything, Smith's great and that's why he's talked about alongside those guys, but he's not clearly superior to them in a way that makes him under-rated just because some people don't prefer him over other great players. This would be like me being upset at anyone who doesn't consider Tuck the most valuable 4-3 lineman in the league.

abaddon41_80
10-29-2011, 06:47 PM
*shrug* Smith has also gotten a lot more help from his fellow lineman and lb corps than Kyle Williams has from his and Williams plays all along the line whereas Smith doesn't. That's not to say Smith suck or anything, Smith's great and that's why he's talked about alongside those guys, but he's not clearly superior to them in a way that makes him under-rated just because some people don't prefer him over other great players. This would be like me being upset at anyone who doesn't consider Tuck the most valuable 4-3 lineman in the league.

Yes he does and it is not like Smith is playing next to elite players or anything. In fact, Marcus Stroud and Aaron Schobel are miles better than any defensive linemen that the 49ers have had since Smith got there.

Splat
10-29-2011, 06:51 PM
Dustin Colquitt.

I'm not even joking dude is a beast. Well if a punter can be a beast.

Raiderz4Life
10-29-2011, 06:58 PM
Dustin Colquitt.

I'm not even joking dude is a beast. Well if a punter can be a beast.

Shane Lechler is...so they're beasts by ST standards =)

Splat
10-29-2011, 07:00 PM
AFC West punters FTW...

Job Reborn
10-29-2011, 07:03 PM
It's really sad that their sack leader only has 3 sacks.

It just shows you how good Ryan is, that he's able to create such a great defense with no pass rush at all.

If you look at the Jets defense player for player, they aren't all that talented. It's a bunch of good CBs, David Harris, and Rex Ryan's schemes.

You do realize that the Jets are currently 6th in the league in total sacks, right? The greatness of Ryan is not that he finds a way to succeed with no pass rush, but really that he finds a way to have a great pass rush without any great pass rushers, and that he gets pressure coming from absolutely everywhere instead of from just one or two very good players.

niel89
10-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Seriously, if/when Rex gets to reload that defense with some great pass rushers, its gonna be scary. Just having Revis on the outside allows to do so much. I just remember the 06 Ravens team where there were 4 guys who just about had 10 sacks each.

Rosebud
10-29-2011, 08:22 PM
Yes he does and it is not like Smith is playing next to elite players or anything. In fact, Marcus Stroud and Aaron Schobel are miles better than any defensive linemen that the 49ers have had since Smith got there.

Playing different positions isn't as big of a part of smith's game as it is Williams' is what I was getting at Williams has dominated as a 3-4 NT, DE and 4-3 UT, that type of versatility is something I personally value a lot. As for his team-mates, Stroud was absolutely awful with the Bills and Schobel was a beast pass rusher, though he struggled against the run due to how wittle he was. Beyond that Williams has gotten very little DL help before this season while Smith has had some solid linemates and some really good LBs helping clean up behind him...this is where I'd tinker with you're quote and say "In fact, Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes and Manny Lawson are miles better than any Linebackers that the Bills have had since Kyle Williams got there."...or I could've gone newer and said "In fact, Patrick Willis, Aldon Smith, Novarro Bowman and Ahmad Brooks are miles better than any Linebackers that the Bills have had since Kyle Williams got there."...

Either way we're splitting hairs here about two great players that personnel preference will dictate which a person likes more.

phlysac
10-29-2011, 09:33 PM
Playing different positions isn't as big of a part of smith's game as it is Williams' is what I was getting at Williams has dominated as a 3-4 NT, DE and 4-3 UT, that type of versatility is something I personally value a lot.

This is where I'm getting at about questioning how much people have seen from Smith. He regularly plays 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, and 4-3 DT in the 49ers scheme, depending on the nickle packages.

I absolutely love Williams the last 3-plus seasons and I feel he deserves to be in this subject as well. The unfortunate thing is we've begun comparing apples to oranges (i.e. Justin Tuck vs. Vince Wilfork.)

My thought is simply that Justin Smith is at absolute worst the #2 3-4 DE in the NFL behind Ngata, and if he's behind Ngata, it's not by much.

bigbluedefense
10-29-2011, 10:18 PM
You do realize that the Jets are currently 6th in the league in total sacks, right? The greatness of Ryan is not that he finds a way to succeed with no pass rush, but really that he finds a way to have a great pass rush without any great pass rushers, and that he gets pressure coming from absolutely everywhere instead of from just one or two very good players.

Well yeah....that was my point....

It's difficult to sustain that kind of pass rushing success throughout a season without an elite pass rusher bc blitzes get figured out over time. Thats where Ryan's genius comes in, nobody is better at attacking protections than Rex Ryan.

abaddon41_80
10-29-2011, 10:21 PM
Playing different positions isn't as big of a part of smith's game as it is Williams' is what I was getting at Williams has dominated as a 3-4 NT, DE and 4-3 UT, that type of versatility is something I personally value a lot.

Smith can line up at any position on the defensive line and dominate, and he is.

As for his team-mates, Stroud was absolutely awful with the Bills and Schobel was a beast pass rusher, though he struggled against the run due to how wittle he was. Beyond that Williams has gotten very little DL help before this season while Smith has had some solid linemates

I will admit I don't watch the Bills much but Stroud was a beast with the Bills whenever I watched in 2008-2009 and Schobel being a beast at anything is still more impressive than what any of the 49er defensive linemen have done. Sopoaga, McDonald and Franklin are all solid players but nothing special.

and some really good LBs helping clean up behind him...this is where I'd tinker with you're quote and say "In fact, Patrick Willis, Takeo Spikes and Manny Lawson are miles better than any Linebackers that the Bills have had since Kyle Williams got there."...or I could've gone newer and said "In fact, Patrick Willis, Aldon Smith, Novarro Bowman and Ahmad Brooks are miles better than any Linebackers that the Bills have had since Kyle Williams got there."...

I am not sure what you mean here. Linebackers, unless they are drawing double-teams and the attention of the opposing offense away from the defensive lineman, aren't really all that important in this discussion. And Smith has been double and triple-teamed as much as any lineman in the NFL since 2009.

Either way we're splitting hairs here about two great players that personnel preference will dictate which a person likes more.

See, I don't think we are. Calling Ngata better than Smith is one thing, and something I won't argue with even though I disagree because it is close, but Williams is not better than Smith.

Rosebud
10-29-2011, 11:12 PM
Smith can line up at any position on the defensive line and dominate, and he is.

My mistake if he is, I haven't seen enough of him play inside to be able to comment on how well he moves inside.

I will admit I don't watch the Bills much but Stroud was a beast with the Bills whenever I watched in 2008-2009 and Schobel being a beast at anything is still more impressive than what any of the 49er defensive linemen have done. Sopoaga, McDonald and Franklin are all solid players but nothing special.

Are you sure you're thinking of Marcus Stroud?

I am not sure what you mean here. Linebackers, unless they are drawing double-teams and the attention of the opposing offense away from the defensive lineman, aren't really all that important in this discussion. And Smith has been double and triple-teamed as much as any lineman in the NFL since 2009.

Well LBs are a big part of a run defense and for the Bills it almost didn't matter what Williams was doing because if he didn't make the tackle in the backfield the back was going to get 5+ yards a pop on those LBs. The guys behind Smith can at least make tackles around the line of scrimmage so that Smith wasn't the only guy stopping the run.

See, I don't think we are. Calling Ngata better than Smith is one thing, and something I won't argue with even though I disagree because it is close, but Williams is not better than Smith.

I don't really think Williams is better but I like him more, they're on par with one another, but I prefer Kyle Williams.

Vox Populi
10-29-2011, 11:40 PM
Regarding the Kyle Williams and Justin Smith conversation...

abbadon, you don't watch the Bills at all and its kind of obvious and you're just trying to make your case for Smith. Aaron Schobel hasn't played in two years. Marcus Stroud was great for the first 6 games he played in Buffalo in 2008 and then was the player you point at when someone asks you for the line between good and bad players. And that rule only applied when he wasn't tired as **** after the first quarter and just leaning against an offensive lineman every play and hoping the play ran right into him.

As a Bills fan I'll readily admit that Justin Smith is a better player than Kyle Williams, has been for the past 2 years, and that Rosebud over rates Williams probably. I appreciate people pimping Bills players, but Williams does take himself out of the play sometimes (maybe by design of the defense, I don't really know) the way he plays (note: not take plays off). Justin Smith impacts way more plays than Williams does in a game in my opinion. Now, it'll be interesting to see what happens as the Bills accumulate more talent, and Smith admitedly has a lot more opportunities for 1-on-1 encounters the way the 49ers run their defense and use him, and probably gets more of them in a few games than Williams will get all season.

I probably over rate Justin Smith and I honestly think that he is a top 2 defensive lineman with Ngata. I just don't see anyone influencing plays as much as those two from a defensive lineman standpoint and the only other defender that I'd put in their level as an impact player is Revis. In the next tier I'd probably have Ware and Reed by themselves.

This is all just based on my observations.

abaddon41_80
10-30-2011, 10:11 AM
Regarding the Kyle Williams and Justin Smith conversation...

abbadon, you don't watch the Bills at all and its kind of obvious and you're just trying to make your case for Smith. Aaron Schobel hasn't played in two years. Marcus Stroud was great for the first 6 games he played in Buffalo in 2008 and then was the player you point at when someone asks you for the line between good and bad players. And that rule only applied when he wasn't tired as **** after the first quarter and just leaning against an offensive lineman every play and hoping the play ran right into him.

Hey, I even said that I haven't watched them much since 2008. I don't think I watched them more than twice last year.

gsorace
10-30-2011, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure if he was brought up already but BenJarvus Green Ellis belongs in the conversation.

phlysac
10-30-2011, 11:56 PM
I'd like to add Cleveland Browns DT Ahtyba Rubin and ILB D'Qwell Jackson. Love 'em both and think they're both vastly unrecognized.

phlysac
11-09-2011, 03:29 PM
ESPN NFL Live just referred to Justin Smith as a "no name lunch-pail type of player." I think that should solidify him as one of the most underrated.

doingthisinsteadofwork
11-10-2011, 01:30 AM
So is it too early to put Lamarr Houston's name on this list?
Unfortunately yes.
If Bresnahan gets fired then Houston will be back on track to becoming an unstoppable force.

Ness
11-10-2011, 01:53 AM
http://prod.static.49ers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/SF/photos/clubimages/2011/02-February/05-bowman-s-oak--nfl_large_580_1000.jpg

niel89
11-10-2011, 02:16 AM
It looks like Bowman is running from Montana.

SenorGato
11-10-2011, 02:40 AM
All underrated team:

QB: Eli - Trendy pick, but he's earned it over the years.
FB: Do not care.
RB: Ben Tate - Makes the Texans' running game legit.
TE: Fred Davis

LT: D'Brick - best pass protector in the NFL
G: I really like the Iupati/Rachal duo.
C: Alex Mack?

DL: Kendall Langford
DL: Paul Soliai
DL: Domata Peko
DL: Justin Smith

LB: ORAKPO
ILB: Derrick Johnson - Karlos Dansby-lite.
OLB: Calvin Pace

It's late and I just got tired.

Borat
11-10-2011, 02:45 AM
All underrated team:

QB: Eli - Trendy pick, but he's earned it over the years.
FB: Do not care.
RB: Ben Tate - Makes the Texans' running game legit.
TE: Fred Davis

LT: D'Brick - best pass protector in the NFL
G: I really like the Iupati/Rachal duo.
C: Alex Mack?

DL: Kendall Langford
DL: Paul Soliai
DL: Domata Peko
DL: Justin Smith

LB: ORAKPO
ILB: Derrick Johnson - Karlos Dansby-lite.
OLB: Calvin Pace

It's late and I just got tired.

Rachal is ******* terrible. Lost his job weeks ago.

Ness
11-10-2011, 02:47 AM
Oh and Corey Webster. He's having a good season. People still don't know who he is though.

KCStud
11-10-2011, 03:05 AM
Jon Asamoah should be on here. Owning Dareus, Suh and Seymour is not an easy task for a G starting his first year.

SenorGato
11-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Hmm good call on Rachal...I'm an ass...Going with general OL then I'd list Winston on the Texans, I guess....iunno oline is always underrrated.