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Razor
11-01-2011, 05:12 AM
Well, I think we can all agree on how much we suck on defense. So let's get some draft discussion going in here. Who do you want and why? Here's my shortlist for next year's draft (no particular order):

Vontaze Burfict (he could fall, although highly unlikely)
Peter Konz
Robert Lester
Dontari Poe
Mark Barron
Courtney Upshaw
Mohamed Sanu
Michael Floyd
Chase Minnifield
Jayron Hosley
Ronnell Lewis
Kendall Reyes
Janoris Jenkins
Shea McClellin
Andre Branch
Dwight Jones
Brian Quick
Markelle Martin

There are others that I like, but I think these are players that we have a shot at getting in the draft.

AntoinCD
11-01-2011, 03:30 PM
I really want an OC to replace Koppen but with how Connolly has played and the shitness of the defense I really want the first four picks used on defensive players unless a playmaker on offense falls.

Ideal start to the draft right now would be

Manti Te'o
Janoris Jenkins
Devin Taylor
TJ McDonald

Screw the 34 because we couldn't find anyone to fit the mold at OLB.

The only offensive players I would take in the first or second would be Blackmon, Floyd, DeCastro, Konz or Brewster

cmarq83
11-01-2011, 03:35 PM
My dream draft right now would be

1) Luke Kuechly
1) Melvin Ingram
2) Janoris Jenkins
2) Robert Lester
3) Harrison Smith

F offense all D!

AntoinCD
11-01-2011, 03:38 PM
My dream draft right now would be

1) Luke Kuechly
1) Melvin Ingram
2) Janoris Jenkins
2) Robert Lester
3) Harrison Smith

F offense all D!

I like Keuchly but I would prefer Te'o to play SAM instead of Ninkovich. I'm happy with Fletcher/Spikes at MLB and Mayo at WILL and I don't think Keuchly is a great fit at SAM.

Love the rest of the draft though

nepg
11-01-2011, 03:40 PM
They ******* need everything. But ILB wouldn't be on my list, of all the things

AntoinCD
11-01-2011, 03:45 PM
They ******* need everything. But ILB wouldn't be on my list, of all the things

Until they get some pieces up front like proper 5 techniques or OLBs then there is no point going back to the 34. No matter how BB wants to dress VW, Brace, Deaderick etc up they aren't 5 techniques. Ninkovich and Cunningham at OLB? Come on that is horrible.

If they stay in the 43 they have pieces in important places. Get a pass rusher, fix the secondary and upgrade Ninkovich/Guyton at OLB. With the proliferation of the 34 it is harder to find someone like Demarcus Ware/Clay Matthews than a top quality 43 OLB.

Look at this draft- Burfict, Te'o, Keuchly, Zach Brown etc all could be within reach.

**** the 34 until they get some real pieces for it

cmarq83
11-01-2011, 03:54 PM
I like Keuchly but I would prefer Te'o to play SAM instead of Ninkovich. I'm happy with Fletcher/Spikes at MLB and Mayo at WILL and I don't think Keuchly is a great fit at SAM.

Love the rest of the draft though

My thought here is that Kuechly could play the Will with Spikes at MLB, and Mayo at SAM. The reason why I prefer Kuechly over Te'o/Burfict is because I think he is going to be an amazing nickel linebacker. Since we play out of nickel so much, him and Mayo would make a fantastic duo for about 55% of our plays. Plus, I think he has a ton of playmaking ability which is mitigated by that horrid BC supporting cast.

I'm really high on Harrison Smith though. One of the most underrated prospects in the draft IMO. Very similar to Chung.

FlyingElvis
11-02-2011, 02:35 PM
All D is fine by me. Our Oline looks solid and young with the only real question mark being Connolly at center. It certainly appears to be working thus far.

WR if a good one is available (assuming Price isn't going to show us anything) would be ok, but the need is really all D.

Pass rush plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

AntoinCD
11-02-2011, 02:44 PM
I really think the only way we should go offense early is if the value is too good to pass on. Say if for some reason Michael Floyd fell to the late 20s, then I would take him. Likewise if Peter Konz fell to the mid second I would take him.

Razor
11-05-2011, 07:46 PM
Robert Kraft is on the sidelines for the "Game of the Century". Wouldn't mind drafting some of the players in that game, although I doubt he's there scouting players...

ElectricEye
11-06-2011, 12:06 PM
There's so many things that we need. Hard to really single just one. A pass rusher in some form, a quality defensive linemen besides Vince Wilfork, better defensive backs(cringe), better linebackers...we would be better off starting from square one on defense than trying to find pieces that fit this current group.

The horrible part is that the offense is starting to show that it needs some tuning as well. A bigger receiver who can do damage down the field and get open against press man is a big thing now. We're also running out of time on finding a good center to replace Koppen.


Basically; we still need the things that we've been talking about for years....and we're probably not going to get them. Expect more overdrafts and defensive backs who don't play meaningful snaps for years and then get cut.

patriots21
11-08-2011, 08:08 PM
I wouldn't mind Rueben Randale (however it's spelled) for them. They need an athletic big play wideout.

ElectricEye
11-08-2011, 10:11 PM
I like Randle quite a bit. I'm not sure that he would come out though. I wouldn't be totally opposed to spending a first round pick on a receiver if the board broke that way, despite how crap our defense is. I LOVE what Michael Floyd can do on the field when he's firing on all cylinders. Just a real complete receiver who can hurt you down the field or after the catch. Near impossible to take out of the game because of the sheer number of ways he can work you and how good his hands are. But more than likely, we're looking at a second/third round type guy at that position. There's a fair amount of those kinds of guys I like.

Dwight Jones out of North Carolina is certainly an options. Great size at 6'3 225. Hard to bring down in the open field because of it. He's got enough speed and body control to have a vertical, down field element to his game. Clearly a guy who could win some battles against press coverage and make things happen across the middle. Not a real gifted route runner or fluid guy, but his skillset is complimentary to what we already have.

Brian Quick is similar, but should project to be even more of a vertical threat than Jones is. Level of competition is concerned and I certainly won't pretend that I've been able to catch every Appalachian State game, but I really like what I've seen in a small sample size. He gets off the line quick(haha) for a guy of his stature and represents some serious match up problems with his height and speed. Still a guy who is pretty raw, but down in the draft he's an interesting option.

Beyond that, I like Nick Toon quite a bit. Maybe even quite a bit more than most. I've always come away impressed with him despite the production threshold actually being fairly low. Wisconsin is perhaps more committed to the run than perhaps any other team in college football, aside from Georgia Tech. Not a good place for a toosly wide receiver to ply his trade, let alone with noodle arm game managers. Russell Wilson has changed that a bit. He's struggled with some injuries this year and has had to work through them, but he's been better than ever this year.

Sanu is good too, but I'm not sure he's the right fit in the first round for us. The way Rutgers has used him isn't conducive to producing statistics that reflect his ability threshold or show him off down the field, but you've got to be a little concerned by his lack of plays down the field.

descendency
11-08-2011, 11:08 PM
I support any draft with Michael Floyd in it.

Courtney Upshaw+Michael Floyd+Robert Lester

We can trade away the rest of the picks for whatever.

Matthew Jones
11-08-2011, 11:17 PM
My dream draft would be:

1. LB Courtney Upshaw, Alabama

1. FS Mark Barron, Alabama

2. DT Devon Still, Penn St.

2. WR Ryan Broyles, Oklahoma

AntoinCD
11-09-2011, 06:38 AM
Im really not a fan of Barron and would rank him behind Lester and TJ McDonald. I wouldn't mind taking him in the second but the first would be too much for me.

I love the idea of Floyd on this team. Could really open up the offense for everyone else if the defenses we play actually have to cover someone outside.

I love Vinny Curry. I think he would be an ideal fit for us

kennyb
11-22-2011, 10:40 AM
Where does someone like Curry play? 3-4 OLB? or 4-3 DE?

Is Ninkovich good enough to play 3-4 OLB? Do we go 3-4 or stay 4-3?

Why do you think Deaderick isn't good enough for 3-4 DE? Or Brace?

Hmmm...hard to know who to draft unless you know whether 3-4 or 4-3 or whatever. Also are carter and the guy from the bears coming back next year?

Anyway, I'd want them to draft something like:

WR Sanu or WR Wright from Arkansas (Sanu is interesting as he's big enough to get off of blocks)

OL DeCastro (guard or center) or Ben Jones
DE Wynn
LB Kuechley
safety TJ McDonald or Markelle martin

Plus the standard late round flyers

vidae
11-22-2011, 11:01 AM
Wrong thread!

Razor
11-27-2011, 04:49 PM
Am I the only one having wet dreams about Kendall Wright right now?

descendency
11-27-2011, 05:07 PM
The last thing I am going to be excited about is any WR the Patriots draft.

Razor
11-27-2011, 05:12 PM
I don't mind drafting a WR as long as I like the value. I just want to draft defense as well..

nepg
11-27-2011, 05:29 PM
I don't see the point in drafting anything but a stud receiver if they draft one.

Razor
11-27-2011, 05:31 PM
I'm pretty sure that Wright will end up being a stud receiver. He's small, but so are Wes Welker and Deion Branch. I'd rather have Floyd, but I don't think we'll get a chance of drafting him. Also, I prefer to go defense in the first round.

ElectricEye
11-27-2011, 05:31 PM
I like Wright quite a bit, but he'll cost a second round pick. We need a bigger bodied guy anyway, so all things considered...eh. Would be a good pick, but not one that compliments the rest of the offense.

Csna
12-04-2011, 08:12 PM
Id like for us to pick up Burfict and a good FS

ElectricEye
12-04-2011, 08:15 PM
Burfict is the exact opposite of what we've done with defensive players lately. In short; I'm wildy intrigued by that. Doubt it happens though. It's pretty obvious we need a rangy safety though, so I agree on that front wholeheartedly. Not particularly enamored with any of the guys in this class though, besides maybe Markelle Martin. I'm pretty lukewarm on him though.

RWills
12-04-2011, 08:50 PM
They can go a lot of different ways.

In regards to the defense

There is no elite pass rusher available this year. Not saying there are players I dont like. In the first round there is Upshaw our of Alabama and Ingram out of South Carolina...I dont think Ingram will be high on their board despite that he is much more athletic than Upshaw he struggles against the run where Upshaw sets the edge and has improved on his pass rushing abilities. Cam Johnson is the other guy a like, has a motor like Chris Long and played OLB in a 34 with Groh last year and a 43 DE this year, scheme diverse. Andre Branch is someone to keep an eye on he really turned it up at the end of the season.

Guys like Vinny Curry, Brandon Jenkins, Ronnell Lewis, Jarvis Jones and Bruce Irvin are on the lighter side and will be just nickel rushers who will struggle against the run. Devin Taylor is not an OLB in a 34 he is a DE in a 43, he is too tall and doesnt have the feet to plat in space.

This year they really missed Wright's ability to play 34 DE and 43 DT,NT while applying pressure, there is no pocket being collapsed, QBs are able to step up. Im up in the air with a guy like Still, 1 year player who struggled against Wisconsin. Crick is a player who can play DE in a 43 and 34 along with DT but I feel he doesnt have the base to play the run. Fletcher Cox is a player to remember, he has been dominate in the SEC, can play the 5 and 3. Worthy is a undertackle only and Brandon Thompson is overrated, he is a NT in a 43 only. Poe is a darkhorse, he is a poorman's Haloti Ngata and BB likes his big boys, you cant teach size. Billy Wynn is another guy who can play 3 different positions on a winning organization.

to me Safety is the BIGGEST need, I know people dont like Barron, but I do, the guy makes the right calls, takes the right angles and always makes that play.

TJ McDonald, Robert Lester and Markelle Martin and center fielders that read the QB's eyes...McDonald has the higher ceiling and size and Martin is always around that ball and dont know why he isnt talked about more. A JR to remember is Rambo from Georgia, size and speed at FS. The name is escaping me but the FS out of Arkansas is having a solid career and could be a late round (5-7) find.

I would love to see a Sean Spence or Kenny Tate as a nickel LB

ElectricEye
12-05-2011, 02:35 PM
There is no elite pass rusher available this year. Not saying there are players I dont like. In the first round there is Upshaw our of Alabama and Ingram out of South Carolina...I dont think Ingram will be high on their board despite that he is much more athletic than Upshaw he struggles against the run where Upshaw sets the edge and has improved on his pass rushing abilities. Cam Johnson is the other guy a like, has a motor like Chris Long and played OLB in a 34 with Groh last year and a 43 DE this year, scheme diverse. Andre Branch is someone to keep an eye on he really turned it up at the end of the season.


Guys like Vinny Curry, Brandon Jenkins, Ronnell Lewis, Jarvis Jones and Bruce Irvin are on the lighter side and will be just nickel rushers who will struggle against the run. Devin Taylor is not an OLB in a 34 he is a DE in a 43, he is too tall and doesnt have the feet to plat in space.




I'm completely down on this crop of pass rushers as it stands right now without knowing which underclassmen are coming out. I like Upshaw and Ingram, but I'm not sure I like them as first round players. Upshaw is a solid guy, but I'm not sure I would take him with a first round pick. High floor, but low ceiling. At the very least, I think he'll be a solid all around player and be a better linebacker(not necessarily as a pass rusher) than what we have right now.

Ingram is a guy who I like...but where on earth do you play him? Versatility is great, but is Ingram a truly versatile player or is he one with limitations that you can hide by moving him around? I'm not sure right now. I really want to see how he tests and preferably how he looks in space in linebacker drills. Senior Bowl and Post-Season process will be a huge factor in how I view him.

I'm really not a big fan of Cam Johnson. Yeah, he has a motor...but I just don't see elite burst(or even average) consistently enough for him to buy him as a guy who will generate either sack numbers or meaningful pressure in the NFL. Might be wrong on him, but I feel pretty comfortable in passing him up.

Branch is very underrated. One of the quickest first steps in the draft and a very athletic guy on top of that with decent size. There's some red flags there and a high "Crable" factor, but he's worth looking into. I would love to see how he does at the Senior Bowl should be receive an invitation.


As far as that next group of "light" guys go, I think like all of those players quite a bit more than Upshaw and Ingram right now. I disagree with you about them being nickel rushers; if we go back to using more 3-4 looks(which we well could), some of those guys could end up being very good linebackers.

Out of those guys, the one I like the best, far and away even, is Jarvis Jones. I went back and watched some pieces of Georgia games this weekend and came away VERY impressed with both his physical tools and his approach to the game. Burst and pass rush moves are important, but motor is king for me and he has that and then some. He's not really all that hard to neutralize if you can lock on to him...but good luck doing it. He's quick, slippery, and out to get there in a hurry. If he falls to us, I'll be pretty displeased with not taking him, as he's probably the number one pass rusher I've got right now.

I like Devin Taylor quite a bit as well. Totally disagree with him being limited to 4-3 DE. South Carolina has even moved him around quite a bit this year and even gone as far as dropping him into coverage at times. He's looked good doing it. He doesn't fit to conventional physical profile for an OLB with his height and length(let's wait to see how many inches gets shaved off. You can generally count on at least one), but there's always an exception to that kind of thing and we may be looking at one with Taylor.


This year they really missed Wright's ability to play 34 DE and 43 DT,NT while applying pressure, there is no pocket being collapsed, QBs are able to step up. Im up in the air with a guy like Still, 1 year player who struggled against Wisconsin. Crick is a player who can play DE in a 43 and 34 along with DT but I feel he doesnt have the base to play the run. Fletcher Cox is a player to remember, he has been dominate in the SEC, can play the 5 and 3. Worthy is a undertackle only and Brandon Thompson is overrated, he is a NT in a 43 only. Poe is a darkhorse, he is a poorman's Haloti Ngata and BB likes his big boys, you cant teach size. Billy Wynn is another guy who can play 3 different positions on a winning organization.

I love Jared Crick and would be very pleased if we bought low on him. I feel bad for the guy personally with the injury damaging his stock pretty bad, but I had him pegged as a top 15-20 guy and the highest rated 3-4 DE on the board before he went down. If he's hanging around the end of the first, I might even snap him up there even if he's projected to be available in the second. Felt like he was a really underrated guy even when healthy, just a very good all around player and a better raw athlete than people give him credit for. Really projects well to being the sort of presence as the kind of interior guy or edge defender we need to make both schemes work.

Still is a guy I'm intrigued by. The fact that he was only this kind of player for one season is concerning, but boy what a season has it been. High bust factor there, but there's still a ton of upside and his skills have to rank up there with some of the better 5 technique prospects in the past few drafts. I like him a whole ton more than I did Odrick a few years back.

The rest of those guys I'm inclined to agree with you on. Thompson and Worthy really don't do a whole lot for me, but I like Worthy as a sub-rusher...just maybe not quite as high as it would take to get him. Poe and Cox are two guys who are under the radar who I want to see more of. Poe's potential is absolutely salivating as that Ngata kind of guy you've mentioned, but I want to see more of him before committing and would certainly hope that our scouts were thorough with him. His length combined with his ability to throw guys around is certainly intriguing as all hell though. If he lives up to his potential, he's the sort of guy you can see changing a defense.


to me Safety is the BIGGEST need, I know people dont like Barron, but I do, the guy makes the right calls, takes the right angles and always makes that play.

TJ McDonald, Robert Lester and Markelle Martin and center fielders that read the QB's eyes...McDonald has the higher ceiling and size and Martin is always around that ball and dont know why he isnt talked about more. A JR to remember is Rambo from Georgia, size and speed at FS. The name is escaping me but the FS out of Arkansas is having a solid career and could be a late round (5-7) find.


I'm pretty down on that group of players. Barron is a good player who is a safe bet to be a starter, but I don't think he's the rangy sort of guy we need. Chung is a liability against the pass as is(well, all our safeties kind of are...), it doesn't seem like a great idea to bring in another one of those types of guys. Lester does a lot more for me with his range on the back end. Martin and McDonald are guys I could see fit in well too, but I'm pretty lukewarm on both of them. McDonald shows good range when you watch him, but I question if he'll be able to make up as much ground against faster players on a week to week basis.

The guy from Arkansas I think you're talking about is Tramain Thomas, and yeah, he's pretty underrated at this point. He's had a real big season this year for sure. Another guy I would love to see in some of the post-season stuff to get a better read on.

nepg
12-08-2011, 12:29 PM
S, pass rusher, deep threat are the main needs. The receivers in this draft are fairly disappointing. If they could get one of the top safeties, I'd be pretty happy. Martin, Barron, McDonald...whoever...just get one. The pass rushers are somewhat "meh", but it's a deep class. I really like Curry, Whitney, and Jarvis Jones if he's eligible. I think S and pass rusher should be the first two picks.

Razor
12-08-2011, 12:30 PM
How are the receivers in this class "fairly disappointing"? I really like Floyd, Dwight Jones and especially Kendall Wright for us.

Csna
12-08-2011, 03:35 PM
What are your guys thoughts on Marvin McNutt probably a 3rd/4th round pick has had a great season. A 6'4 guy bigger than every other receiver on team seems like a good player.

ElectricEye
12-08-2011, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty lukewarm on McNutt. Doesn't look like he has the speed to get vertical in the league, and that's the kind of guy we need. I would much prefer Tommy Streeter or Brian Quick in that same range, although Streeter might be a fast riser.

Csna
12-09-2011, 12:26 AM
I think Streeter should of stayed and got another year under his belt could of risen his stock more.

Razor
12-10-2011, 07:02 AM
I've been trying to put my thoughts together regarding the draft. Here's some of it:

Needs
1. Outside linebacker
Surprise, surprise. It looks like we're going back to the 3-4 next year, meaning we are back to having no pass rush what so ever since Carter and Anderson don't fit in the 3-4. Right now we only have Rob Ninkovich, who's probably better suited as a depth player/ special teamer and Jermaine Cunningham, who has been atrocious and invisible this year after a rookie season where he flashed some ability. In my opinion we need two starting OLBs: one via FA and one via the draft. A dark horse might be Markell Carter, who Reiss is speculating might be promoted from the practice squad (http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4711855/eyes-on-cunningham-carter).

2. Safety
Besides Chung there are no starting caliber safeties on the roster right now. Chung is, despite being awesome, a liability in coverage and would be better suited playing strong safety. His playing still combined with his slight frame makes for a player prone to injury though, which means that we need at least two new safeties.

3. Defensive end
Although there are quite a few players on the roster who can play the 5-tech position there are none who in my opinion can be a difference maker. Deaderick has shown some ability, but questions linger about his personality. He looks better suited as a backup and a spot starter, not as a full time starter. Ron Brace is a bust, Gerard Warren is old and Mike Wright is probably done due to concussions. That leaves us with a total of zero starting caliber defensive ends. Ugh...

4. Center
Dan Koppen is a FA come march and is a long shot to get a new contract. Dan Connolly was decent, but got pushed around some. Ryan Wendell is a nice backup, but by no means a starting caliber center in the AFC given the number of 3-4 teams here. In a class with potentially a couple of very good centers the Patriots should strike while the iron is hot and go get a center that can prevent pass rush up the middle a.k.a. Brady Cryptonite.

5. Wide receiver
Deion Branch is old, so is Ochostinko. Tiquan Underwood is, despite having the coolest hair in the NFL, not a NFL receiver. On top of that: Wes Welker is a FA come march, but should get the franchise tag if no deal is reached. This could mean that receiver should be higher on my list, but with Brady at QB we can get by with less talented players at WR than most other teams.

Potential targets
Andre Branch, DE/OLB, Clemson
Generally I'm not one to fall in love with Clemson D-linemen, since they always appear to be great athletes who can't translate that ability to the field. But I feel differently about Branch. He's a good athlete who has a non-stop engine. He has some experience dropping into coverages where he displays patience and the ability to read the QB. He's a solid tackler and has the length and strength to set the edge. Overall, I think Branch is a better version of Jermaine Cunningham. He should test well at the Combine too and doesn't appear to have any character issues.

Kendall Wright, WR, Baylor
I like to compare Wright to DeSean Jackson, which means that he can give the NE offense a dimension it hasn't had since Moss was traded. But Wright is also able to be a factor in the short and intermediate passing game and looks like an ideal player to take over from Branch. He's only about 5'10" 190 lbs, but has the ability to play outside the numbers given his speed, suddenness and route running ability. He might have some trouble with being jammed at the LOS in the NFL, but for me the positives outweighs the negatives by a wide margin.

Peter Konz, C, Wisconsin
Konz might return to school, but if he declares he should be a priority target for the Patriots if he's within reach. He has great size and strength to hold up against nose tackles, but he also has the athleticism to pull and get to the second level. Wisconsin O-linemen are typically well coached and NFL ready, meaning that Konz should be a day one starter. Plug and play and be set at center for another decade.

Dontari Poe, DT/DE, Memphis
He might be out of our reach come april, but if we get a chance to get him we should do just that. Two years ago I had a huge man crush on Linval Joseph, whom we passed on multiple times. Now he's a stud in the making. I feel like Poe is a combination between Joseph and Ngata who has the size, strength and athleticism to play 3-4 DE at a very high level.

Devon Still, DT/DE, Penn State
Whilst he doesn't have the brute strength of Poe, he has adequate strength and athleticism to play DE in BBs system. I have some concerns about him since he's only just turned it on this year, but if this year is a good indicator of his future level of play he could be a good DE in NE. He has the size that BB looks for. The only thing I question is his ability to play gap control, but I feel like he could do that with some coaching.

Michael Floyd, wide receiver, Notre Dame
Floyd looks like a true #1 receiver in the NFL in the Andre Johnson mold. He's big, strong and has enough speed to get on top of DBs. He has a history of DUI's and generally dumb behavior which could hurt his draft stock enough to the point where we might have a shot at him. If we do, it should be a no brainer.

Tommy Streeter, wide receiver, Miami (FL)
Streeter compares favorably to Sidney Rice, or at least, the Vikings anno 2009 version of Sidney Rice. He has deceptive speed and solid route running ability to go along with good hands. He should've stayed in school imo, but here's a chance to get a steal in the third or fourth round.

Vontaze Burfict, ILB, Arizona State
Even though ILB isn't on the list of top need and seems to be the one position besides NT where we're set we should definitely jump on an opportunity to draft Taze if we get it. Taze is a top ten talent, but questions about his demeanor on the field and his work ethic have caused his stock to drop. If he drops I don't care who we have, we should replace Spikes with Taze. He has the ability to be a similar player to Ray Lewis (hopefully without murdering people though) and we could need some more intensity on defense. He's also a good fit next to Mayo.

Nick Perry, DE/OLB, USC
Rumors say that Nick Perry is leaning towards declaring for the draft, which is great news for us. Perry's stock is lukewarm right now, but he should test well and has shown the ability to outright beat LTs and either get the sack or force incompletions. He has adequate size and I feel like he can be a player similar to Brian Orakpo if he puts it all together.

I think that's about it for now. More players might be added at some point.

nepg
12-10-2011, 11:55 AM
I think Streeter should of stayed and got another year under his belt could of risen his stock more.
I still think Tommy Streeter should have gone to BC >8L.

He's still super raw, but is a tall, lanky WR in the mold of Chris Henry. I'd take him, but I'm not sure about his draft value. His size, speed, athleticism, and production point to an easy first round pick. **** loads better than garbage ass Sanu, who people keep mocking to the Pats (ewww). Streeter may well be the best WR in the draft.

AntoinCD
12-12-2011, 11:36 AM
Quick question; if there's a run on wrs early or BB doesn't see the fit, how would people feel about drafting someone like Coby Fleener or Dwayne Allen? Hernandez has shown he's actually better split out and could take up the 3rd wr spot and you could still come out in 2 or 3 TE sets

ElectricEye
12-12-2011, 11:42 AM
Quick question; if there's a run on wrs early or BB doesn't see the fit, how would people feel about drafting someone like Coby Fleener or Dwayne Allen? Hernandez has shown he's actually better split out and could take up the 3rd wr spot and you could still come out in 2 or 3 TE sets

Doesn't work. Hernandez is an underneath receiver. Moving him around won't do anything to change that and drafting another tight end with the idea of making them a primary target in the offense doesn't help us overcome our limitations. I like Fleener a lot...but not for us.

ElectricEye
12-14-2011, 02:54 PM
Watching pieces of some Miami games from this year to try to get a bit better of a read on Streeter. I'm liking what I see. He's a lanky type of guy and that's a it of a concern, but at 6'4 and good long speed, he's tough to match up with. He makes a lot of plays down, which is something we need badly on the outside. Doesn't seem to track the ball as well as he should...but even though Jacory is a willing down field thrower he isn't a very skilled one. I would love to have seen him stay another year or play in a post-season game, but neither of those will be happening. Not sure where I would slot the guy yet though. First round type ability, but he's got 5th round production and track record. The combine will be huge for him.

Edit:

Some more thoughts on Streeter

Positives
-Good long speed, very good height/athleticism ratio
-Able to generate separation down the field
-Uses his body well, both length wise and shielding the all from defenders
-Doesn't need great separation to make catches down down the field, is able to focus and adjust to the ball even with a guy close. Thrives in jump ball situations.
-Lines up in multiple places quite a bit, not afraid to work the middle seemingly
-Quicker feet than you would expect for a tall guy, Miami uses a lot of double moves and he's able to use them to get away from defenders down the field

Negatives
-Very raw overall. Still maturing physically and technically.
-Doesn't seem to have "strong" hands. You would like to see him attack the ball when it's in the air better
-One year of productivity and only one real year of playing time
-Isn't pressed real often, but he's obviously more comfortable with a clean initial release
-Build up speed. Doesn't accelerate quickly and sudden probably won't be an adjective you use to describe him.


Miami uses him in the slot a lot because of the mismatches he's able to generate there. Versatility is great, but we need a receiver with an outside game. He's not a slouch there and a lot of his vertical gains come when he's on the outside, but it's still something I would be leery about. He's got very good physical tools at 6'4 215 with supposed sub 4.4 speed(looks like a high 4.4 guy to me), but he takes awhile to get going. I actually think he's a pretty good fit in a lot of ways. We can afford to be patient with a limited roleplayer type as they develop into something more...and if there's one thing Streeter has going for him, it's upside.

nepg
12-15-2011, 01:51 AM
The guy is Chris Henry Lite. In this offense...I'll take that 8 days a week.

ElectricEye
12-15-2011, 04:00 PM
I'm going to be doing a bit of work on wide receivers since the Streeter thing got me in the mood to watch tape. Went over some Iowa games with a focus on McNutt this afternoon. McNutt is more of a known commodity than Streeter is with 3 years of solid tape on him, but consolidating some of it is useful.

Positives
-Great size at 6'3 215, tall and well built.
-Outstanding hands with a great catch radius that enables him to make some highlight real type catches.
-Good focus, able to track balls and make catches with guys draped all over him. Very good at tracking the football, not a guy you have to throw directly at.
-Excellent body control. Make catches without a whole ton of space along the sideline with regularity. Uses his size to his advantage and is able to box out defenders and box out the ball.
-Able to fight through jams at the line of scrimmage, natural and adept hand fighter.
-Hard guy to keep track of in zone coverage, seems to have a good understanding of how to find a hole and settle in.
-Hard to contain in the short game due to the jumps he gets off the line and his reach.
-Doesn't have the quickest feet in the world, but still runs nice routes. Makes nice adjustments too, working his way back to the quarterback when the play extends.
-Hard worker with good intangibles. High character guy.

Negatives
-Simply isn't an NFL caliber athlete in terms of speed and agility.
-Doesn't generate a ton of separation naturally, has to rely on technique and adjustments to get space.
-Won't be able to run away from NFL defenders after the catch the same way he can in the the Big Ten.
-Doesn't get to his top gear.
-Not fast in and out of his cuts. Runs good routes, but they're more round than they are crisp.
-Despite the relative lack of experience at the position, his upside in limited.

In the end, there's a lot to like about McNutt. He's seen year to year improvement and had big catches in big moments to top it off. It's just a question of how his lack of wide receiver athleticism translates, as he relies on the little things and his size to make things happen even at the college level. Mixed track record with similar kinds of players.

Light 3rd round, solid 4th round grade

As far as how his skills apply to us; it could fit. BB has a relationship with Kirk Ferentz...and while he never really drafts to those the way some other guys do(except with Urban Meyer), it's still always worth mentioning. He's a high character, hard working guy who would fits the mold of the Patriot way. On the field, he doesn't quite bring the explosive element we're looking for. He's capable of making plays down the field in the NFL, but not by running by guys. For some of these plays where Branch and Welker are well contained short and Brady is sitting back there for a long time, McNutt could find a hole and do some damage. With how old we're getting at the position, I would prefer that we find someone with a bit more upside and the ability eventually replace Branch and Welker, but McNutt would be the safest receiver we've drafted in a long time(and as I've said, he's not a sure thing haha) if we were to draft him. I'm just not sure he is brings that vertical dimension to our offense that we should be looking for.

AntoinCD
12-16-2011, 07:39 AM
Nice write up. I really like McNutt for us. He doesn't give the breakaway big play ability of someone like Kendall Wright etc but he offers size an the ability to exploit single coverage.

ElectricEye
12-16-2011, 01:33 PM
Looking at more receivers. If these get annoying, I'll stop posting them. You guys aren't stupid, you know about a lot of these guys. Rueben Randle this time around.

Positives
-Good size at 6'3 and close to 210, well built.
-Overall athleticism is very suited to being a capable NFL receiver, with a nice balance of acceleration and speed to compliment his size
-Generates easy vertical separation, hitting his top gear down the field. Able to make catches 20+ yards past the line of scrimmage consistently.
-Tracks the ball very well in the air, high pointing it when he needs to.
-A bit of a long strider, but he's quick and sudden in and out of his breaks and moves surprisingly well for a big guy.
-Good open field guy. Looks to make yards after the catch and can be tough to tackle in the open field, demonstrating good elusiveness.
-Tons of experience against top level competition, managing to be productive in spite of some truly horrific quarterback play.


Negatives
-Doesn't always play up to his size. You would like to see him be more physical overall.
-Must continue to get stronger.
-Despite above average acceleration and quickness for his size, he's still more in the deep speed/long strider category.
-Played in a very vanilla, conservative offensive scheme that didn't ask him to run an NFL route tree. Has the ability to be a good route runner, but hasn't been asked to do it.
-Doesn't make a lot of contested catches and doesn't seem to use his body all that well.
-Seemingly bothered by press coverage.
-Disappears for large stretches. Some of that has to do with quarterback play, but if you watch him closely you can see it's a bit of an effort problem as well. Runs some lazy routes at times.
-Doesn't seem to possess strong hands. Makes easy catches look easy, harder catches look hard.

Very well rounded overall athlete with the tools to beat you in a lot of different ways. It's sort of tough to evaluate Randle due to the type of quarterback play he has to deal with and offensive system he's in. Out of all the top ranked receivers, sans maybe Toon, he's been asked to do the least in spite of being pretty productive. It's tough to call him raw, since he doesn't really seem to make many mistakes or have a whole ton of technical limitations, but he's certainly still a developing player. The biggest question for me is if he'll continue to be soft and disappear....but all his flaws are coachable. Might not come out this year, but he's a viable candidate to be picked in the late first to early second if he does, possibly even higher with a good combine. Defiantly one of the more under appreciated draft eligible receivers with one of the higher ceilings for his position in the class.

As far as how he would be as a Patriot; it's a pretty good fit. He's not a number one target the second he walks through the door type, but he doesn't have to be here. He's got the ability to go vertical, but he also has some run after the catch skills as well, which is something we covet. The prospect of us taking another receiver who need some work is a little scary though, but with a good bit of coaching(or shall we say luck?) he could well end up being a number one type target for us if we were to take him.

Razor
12-16-2011, 01:52 PM
These aren't annoying, I find them quite informative actually. Of course I don't agree with everything you say, but that would be boring. :) Will you be doing a write up on Juron Criner? I was really high on him going into the season, but his play regressed some this season. I'm still curious about about him though as I think he could develop into a good deep threat in the NFL.

ryno626
12-16-2011, 07:29 PM
keep em coming EE! good stuff man

descendency
12-17-2011, 12:44 AM
As far as how he would be as a Patriot; it's a pretty good fit.

Struggling against the press and lacking instincts that come with running the full route tree is a nightmare situation waiting to blow up in our faces.

That's the two things that you need to be able to do in NE. That and catch. Otherwise, you are a bigger Julian Edelman.

ElectricEye
12-17-2011, 01:28 AM
Struggling against the press and lacking instincts that come with running the full route tree is a nightmare situation waiting to blow up in our faces.

That's the two things that you need to be able to do in NE. That and catch. Otherwise, you are a bigger Julian Edelman.

I was talking from a skills to need perspective as opposed to a true "this is the kind of receiver the Patriots like" kind of one. There's a high "it won't work out" factor with Randle and us, but I would like to think that we will be able to develop players one of these days....or dare I say it; fit the system around them as opposed to forcing them into the system.

AntoinCD
12-18-2011, 10:56 AM
Randle really intrigues me. He has all the tools to be a top WR but as you mentioned that doesn't always show up at gametime. I do put a lot of that down to the offense he played in because he has had a poor QB situation his whole career at LSU. I would have liked to see more from him though. Kinda guy you would take a flier on at the bottom of the third but I wouldn't expect him to be amazing in the NFL. I definitely wouldn't touch him in the first 2 though. Still should be a better pro than college player though if he goes somewhere with a good QB

ElectricEye
12-18-2011, 11:04 AM
I don't think there's any way he goes anywhere outside of the second round if he were to declare....and he has a real good chance of being a first round pick. People don't realize how much talent the guy has. He's not Julio Jones or AJ Green, but he's a lot closer than people realize.

AntoinCD
12-18-2011, 11:12 AM
I don't think there's any way he goes anywhere outside of the second round if he were to declare....and he has a real good chance of being a first round pick. People don't realize how much talent the guy has. He's not Julio Jones or AJ Green, but he's a lot closer than people realize.

I agree that it is likely he could go in the second(I think the first is a stretch) but I don't personally think he should go that high. When talking WRs going in the first few rounds I either want someone who dominated college DBs and has shown consistent production or some kind of freak athlete with huge upside.

Don't get me wrong I think he will probably measure in at around 6'2 210 and run in the 4.4s but I worry why he didn't do more and they aren't exactly Randy Moss numbers. There are a lot of people who don't play with great QBs or offenses that suit them and they still dominate.

It may be a case of because we have been burned a few times with high upside guys who didn't produce in college like they should have but I would take someone like McNutt who you've also looked at over Randle. Not as much upside but a way higher ceiling than Randle.

ElectricEye
12-18-2011, 11:23 AM
Randle is a pretty safe bet to measure in at 6'3(listed at 6'4 right now, LSU has traditionally only been an inch or so off) and run in the 4.4's. It's not about straight line speed/height with him though, it's the quickness in and out of his breaks and overall athleticism that makes him a first round candidate. No, those aren't Randy Moss numbers, but those are the type of numbers that get you picked in the first round if you have a solid track record of production against good competition, which Randle has. Measures up very well in terms of production to testing numbers against some guys who have been picked in that range in the past few years.

McNutt is a decent prospect, but guys like him either tend to disappear quickly. You have to be a gifted athlete to cut it at receiver in this league. There are exceptions, but there's a long list of guys who weren't exceptions as well. So in that regard, I wouldn't call McNutt super safe. There's a good chance he bounces around the league a lot.

AntoinCD
12-18-2011, 11:32 AM
Randle is a pretty safe bet to measure in at 6'3(listed at 6'4 right now, LSU has traditionally only been an inch or so off) and run in the 4.4's. It's not about straight line speed/height with him though, it's the quickness in and out of his breaks and overall athleticism that makes him a first round candidate. No, those aren't Randy Moss numbers, but those are the type of numbers that get you picked in the first round if you have a solid track record of production against good competition, which Randle has. Measures up very well in terms of production to testing numbers against some guys who have been picked in that range in the past few years.

McNutt is a decent prospect, but guys like him either tend to disappear quickly. You have to be a gifted athlete to cut it at receiver in this league. There are exceptions, but there's a long list of guys who weren't exceptions as well. So in that regard, I wouldn't call McNutt super safe. There's a good chance he bounces around the league a lot.

There is that risk with McNutt but I feel like he has great technique and body control along with big strong hands. I really like McNutt though and think he could be a poor man's Brandon Marshall or Marques Colston

ElectricEye
12-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Both of those guys posses vastly superior straight line speed, timing out in the low 4.5, high 4.4 range. McNutt will be lucky to run 4.6....and in spite of Jerry Rice and Anquan Boldin stories(both of those taking poetic license in the first place), guys who are that slow typically don't cut it in the NFL. Especially if they have the heavy feet McNutt has.

AntoinCD
12-18-2011, 11:49 AM
Both of those guys posses vastly superior straight line speed, timing out in the low 4.5, high 4.4 range. McNutt will be lucky to run 4.6....and in spite of Jerry Rice and Anquan Boldin stories(both of those taking poetic license in the first place), guys who are that slow typically don't cut it in the NFL. Especially if they have the heavy feet McNutt has.

I don't by any means expect McNutt to become even an above average WR like these guys but he definitely has a role in the NFL IMO. He's the type of guy who can simply bully CBs in press man coverage and use his body to make the catch. His size is also a big plus. He isn't going to run away from anyone but he doesn't necessarily need to. I am in no way comparing McNutt to Fitz but how often does he leave DBs in his dust? Quite a lot of his catches are contested and he simply uses his body better than the DB and high points the ball. I think McNutt could become a consistent 50 catch, 500/600 yard guy especially if he goes to a team where he won't be asked to be a #1 or #2. For the Pats I think it's a great fit. Welker, Gronk, Hernandez etc will all take away coverage and the better players. McNutt against Kyle Wilson of the Jets? I'd like them chances with a QB as accurate as Brady.

AntoinCD
12-18-2011, 12:16 PM
I thought since EE has done a few great write ups on WRs I'd try a few on possible safeties this year. A lot of people think Mark Barron has a great chance at being selected by the Pats so here goes;

Positives:

-Prototypical size for a safety these days. Will measure in at around 6'2 215lbs.
-Good straight line speed for a player his size.
-Big hitter and will intimidate WRs from going across the middle of the field.
-Extremely well coached and played his whole collegiate career in an NFL styled defense.
-Understands zone concepts well and can read the QBs eyes,
-Played and excelled against elite competition.
-Great work ethic and leader of a defensive backfield that will produce multiple NFL players

Negatives:

-Can play indisciplined at times. Will bite on play action and misdirection plays.
-Too often will try for the knockout hit instead of wrapping up.
-Will not be effective in man coverage at the next level.
-Probably isn't able to be a true centrefielder limiting his versatility(SS only???)
-At times will rely on his athletic ability and therefore take poor angles to the ball. Two great examples are in last year's games against Arkansas and Auburn.

Overall:

I'm not the biggest fan of Barron. I always thought he was a tad overrated and see him more of a solid second round player. He has a lot of tools that NFL teams will love. For the Patriots I can understand why everyone is putting him there. I just don't like the fit. I'm not sure there is much of a difference between Barron and Chung and the Patriots can not afford to have two players without ideal coverage ability on the field at the same time.

AntoinCD
12-23-2011, 02:05 PM
Robert Lester

Pros:

-Very good size for a FS prospect. Will come in at around 6'1 210lbs.
-Can play the centre field position as well as anyone in college at the minute.
-Finds his way to the ball and makes plays on the ball.
-10 career INTs shows he has good hands and offers return ability.
-Played in an NFL style defense under Nick Saban.
-Good work ethic.
-Is athletic enough to cover in man adequately but is excellent in zone coverage.
-Played against the best in college football and excelled.

Cons:

-Limited to playing FS. Will seldom lay a big hit that jars ball carriers.
-Slow to attack running lanes-maybe because his safety partner Mark Barron is more adept at playing in the box.
-Will often try to make a big play when he should just prevent big plays against the defense.
-Has good, not great hips. Better suited to stay deep and read the QBs eyes rather than cover WRs or TEs.
-Isn't the most disciplined player when it comes to resposnibilities. Doesn't freelance to the extent of a Troy Polamalu but often you can tell he doesn't stick to his assignment in an attempt to make something happen.

Overall:

I like Lester quite a bit for the Patriots although I'm not sure he is the type Belichick will go for. He doesn't offer the versatility BB likes in his safeties and offers little as a nickleback. However with Pat Chung in the lineup he can play to his strengths more in the box and covering TEs and Lester can play the deep middle. The reason I like Lester is because he makes plays on the ball, not the man. He sometimes misses and gives up a big play which is something BB will not stand for be he could be a difference maker in the right system. I would be very intrigued with him in the middle of the second round.

descendency
12-23-2011, 07:48 PM
I want either Lester or Markelle Martin. Dontari Poe on the DL as a huge upside guy would be nice as well, but he's on the kind of small side, sadly.

Vaylor
12-23-2011, 08:03 PM
I want either Lester or Markelle Martin. Dontari Poe on the DL as a huge upside guy would be nice as well, but he's on the kind of small side, sadly.

Err what? Dontari Poe is listed at 6'5 350 on his Bio at the Memphis website. I can't imagine his true size is far away from that.

descendency
12-24-2011, 02:13 AM
Err what? Dontari Poe is listed at 6'5 350 on his Bio at the Memphis website. I can't imagine his true size is far away from that.

For some reason, my brain remembered 6'2" 330. Then again, I've seen people listed at UF and The U drop 3-4 inches.

Nalej
12-24-2011, 07:51 AM
The thought of having D.Poe next to Wilfork is my new wet dream. Make it happen, Capt!

ElectricEye
12-24-2011, 09:25 AM
For some reason, my brain remembered 6'2" 330. Then again, I've seen people listed at UF and The U drop 3-4 inches.

Over the past few years, the few Memphis players drafted have only been off by half an inch or so. It's actually harder and harder to find schools that still do those sort of things.

Razor
12-27-2011, 11:07 AM
I've got a question for all of you: If Quinton Coples is sitting there at our first pick, do we take him? I mean, he has the size and strength to play two gap DE. He needs to bulk up some 15-20 lbs in order to be able to anchor against the run, but still... He has played extensively at DT as a junior. I know he has some issues with his motor this season, but going into this year his motor was one of his good traits. I don't know what happened this year, but I'm pretty sure that's not what to expect from him as a pro.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 11:13 AM
I've got a question for all of you: If Quinton Coples is sitting there at our first pick, do we take him? I mean, he has the size and strength to play two gap DE. He needs to bulk up some 15-20 lbs in order to be able to anchor against the run, but still... He has played extensively at DT as a junior. I know he has some issues with his motor this season, but going into this year his motor was one of his good traits. I don't know what happened this year, but I'm pretty sure that's not what to expect from him as a pro.

I would be surprised if BB drafted Coples. It's similar to what people started saying last year about Bowers IMO. If he bulks up that extra 15lbs you don't know what his explosion will be like and he doesn't play consistently with the leverage needed to suceed at 5 technique. Plus, if he does bulk up it probably stops him being a successful DE when they shift to a 4 man front.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 01:47 PM
Markelle Martin:


Positives:

-Good size, not great but definitely big enough to play safety
-Has versatility
-Can play centerfield and roam in the defensive backfield
-Can lay the wood when necessary
-Offers a lot on special teams
-Can come up and support the run but is better deep
-Played in a pass happy conference and will be used to being thrown at
-Above average speed and athleticism
-Hard worker and a film room junkie

Negatives:

-Instincts aren't great and makes up with his speed at times
-Is probably too small to cover TEs
-Poor ball skills. Is more likely to knock balls down than make INTs
-Limited upside
-Needs to wrap up better when tackling. Despite his smaller stature he tends to go for huge hits


Overall:

I like Martin for the Patriots towards the bottom of the second. He will test very well in the offseason but may never turn into a pro bowl caliber player. His work ethic and ability to contribute on special teams will probably endear him to BB. Pairing him with Chung would give the Pats two athletic safeties with a bit of versatility. Would play the Ihedigbo role in the defense most times. If he had better hands he would probably be a late first round prospect

nepg
12-28-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm a big Martin fan.

AntoinCD
12-28-2011, 12:42 PM
Kenny Vaccaro:

Positives:

-Excellent size, likely to measure in at 6'1 215lbs
-Above average athleticism
-Fluid hips and can play either man or zone
-Offers quite a bit as a nickleback
-Can come up and support the run
-Can play FS and SS
-Very big hitter but also knows to wrap up when necessary
-Offers a lot on special teams
-Believes in himself and has a short memory

Negatives:

-Possible character concerns
-Doesn't have great hands and only has 3 career INTs at Texas
-Not a big playmaker
-Won't always play disciplined
-Could do a better job reading the QBs eyes in zone coverage

Overall:

Vaccaro is a pretty similar prospect to Martin IMO. Both highly athletic guys who will be solid NFL starters but may never be stars. What Martin has in film study and reaction time Vaccaro makes up for with great instincts. Neither though will be big playmakers. Special teams ability will help Vaccaro in the draft, particularly with a team like the Patriots however he will more than likely be a late second/early third type guy. Definitely a big upgrade over any safety not named Chung but not someone I would be jumping for joy over if we drafted him.

descendency
01-02-2012, 02:03 PM
Thoughts on Ben Jones (Center, Georgia). He needs to work on his leverage a bit, but he has the size to be a great C in the NFL against 34 teams.

I'm starting to think he's a really good player for NE.

I'm a big fan of Martin and of Robert Lester.

I'm really liking what I am seeing from this Brandon Boykin guy.

Nalej
01-04-2012, 08:25 AM
I haven't been able to follow college football the way I would have liked this year (had a lil' boy before the college season started)
but I keep seeing A.Jeffery sliding to the early 2nd rd. Would you guy be upset if we used one of our 1st on him if he slid to us?
I remember him last year in his monster year. I see his stats declined heavily but don't know why.
He had a great game in the bowl game before being ejected... so what' the deal with him?
I would assume he would be a monster in our offense

FlyingElvis
01-04-2012, 11:24 AM
I haven't been able to follow college football the way I would have liked this year (had a lil' boy before the college season started)
but I keep seeing A.Jeffery sliding to the early 2nd rd. Would you guy be upset if we used one of our 1st on him if he slid to us?
I remember him last year in his monster year. I see his stats declined heavily but don't know why.
He had a great game in the bowl game before being ejected... so what' the deal with him?
I would assume he would be a monster in our offense

To get your answer, type his name into google and see what the first search que is after his name.

Razor
01-04-2012, 11:33 AM
To get your answer, type his name into google and see what the first search que is after his name.

I lol'd. :) I'll be furious if we take him. We'll never take him though, he just doesn't fit in..

FlyingElvis
01-04-2012, 11:56 AM
I lol'd. :) I'll be furious if we take him. We'll never take him though, he just doesn't fit in..

I went to search for it and lol'd myself when I saw it was the first option. That's when I figured it was best to not answer directly . . . it's more fun to go and do it yourself.

descendency
01-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Alshon Jeffery could be a better player than Big Mike Williams if he had some direction.

So could Big Mike Williams.

Matthew Jones
01-07-2012, 08:34 AM
Alshon Jeffery could be a better player than Big Mike Williams if he had some direction.

So could Big Mike Williams.

Drafting Alshon Jeffery would be out of character for Belichick. Jeffery should wind up getting multiple flags and New England's draft board generally consists of only 50 or 60 players who the team feels are fits.

descendency
01-09-2012, 08:13 PM
Mike Williams (TE - Alabama) looks like a good 5th-6th round TE to draft as a blocker. Not a flashy WR, but he blocks like an OT and in their offense, catching any passes probably means Tom Brady can make you look like Dallas Clark.

Razor
01-09-2012, 08:19 PM
This is more in the 2013 NE Patriots Draft section, but Michael Brockers makes my man accessories tingle... I want him soooo bad.

descendency
01-09-2012, 08:47 PM
I want Mathieu in 2013. Not in Round 1, but eventually. He reminds me of a small Charles Woodson.

edit: He'd be a nightmare in the slot.

ElectricEye
01-09-2012, 08:49 PM
I want Mathieu in 2013. Not in Round 1, but eventually. He reminds me of a small Charles Woodson.

That's basically what he is, yeah. You have the move him around and find roles for him, but I think he might be able to cut it as a nickel guy or a safety. He tackles very well in spite of his size, although bigger receivers are going to handle him in man.

The other guys I've been really impressed with so far are Micahel Brockers and Mingo, although that was to be expected. Wouldn't mind spending a first round pick on either of those two.

descendency
01-09-2012, 09:19 PM
DeQuan Menzie has been solid.

Razor
01-10-2012, 04:41 AM
That's basically what he is, yeah. You have the move him around and find roles for him, but I think he might be able to cut it as a nickel guy or a safety. He tackles very well in spite of his size, although bigger receivers are going to handle him in man.

The other guys I've been really impressed with so far are Micahel Brockers and Mingo, although that was to be expected. Wouldn't mind spending a first round pick on either of those two.
I don't like Mathieu in coverage, actually. I think he's a FS in the NFL, even with his size. Can he play in the slot? Sure. But he can be had pretty easily I think. I love me some Honey Badger, but I wouldn't trust him in coverage as of right now. Mingo is really overrated too imo. He can't hold up against the run, overpursuits and gets caught up with the tackle too many times for my likings. He has what it takes physically, but I think he's really overrated as a prospect right now. I actually like Montgomery better at this point I think, but really it's a toss up. Brockers on the other hand is the real star on that DL. I think he has the potential to become a new Seymour at 5-tech, that how highly I think of him. If we could somehow get him for the DL I think we'll be in very good shape going forward.

nepg
01-10-2012, 10:03 AM
Hightower was a straight-up beast in that game. Really don't see why he doesn't get talked about with the other ILB prospects. Probably because he's not an underclassman...

descendency
01-10-2012, 11:52 AM
Hightower was a straight-up beast in that game. Really don't see why he doesn't get talked about with the other ILB prospects. Probably because he's not an underclassman...

He was a step slow most of the game. He made a few plays when the game was almost over. I didn't see an NFL linebacker going against a pathetic offense.

nepg
01-10-2012, 01:41 PM
The only bad thing about LSU's offense is the QB.

Still trying to figure out why Jarret Lee was benched when he was the reason they were doing so well early in the year.

nepg
01-10-2012, 02:17 PM
I am a huge fan of Michael Williams as the 3rd, blocking TE.

descendency
01-12-2012, 09:01 PM
Micahel Brockers declares. If we can get him with the Saints pick, I would laugh so hard.

My gut says the Giants will be too interested and the Broncos too.

ElectricEye
01-12-2012, 09:02 PM
There's buzz he could be gone to Carolina at 9 and possible even higher. It would be absolutely fantastic if we landed him...and I would even consider trading up, but I doubt it happens unfortunately :(

Razor
01-13-2012, 10:43 AM
There's buzz he could be gone to Carolina at 9 and possible even higher. It would be absolutely fantastic if we landed him...and I would even consider trading up, but I doubt it happens unfortunately :(

I'm on that wagon as well. I'd happily package our two first rounders to get him, but Carolina seems to be where he's headed right now. And trading up any higher than that just seems too costly for us to do it. At least now there's a chance that we get Poe, but I still have reservations about him. I have no reservations what so ever about Brockers, he's the real thing imo.

ElectricEye
01-13-2012, 10:56 AM
I was discussing it with ROP a bit, but I really feel like we're going to be targeting a bigger receiver in the draft this year. Maybe not a king sized guy, but someone with some height who can do damage vertically would be a huge get to diversify what we can do as an offense. During his stead as a coordinator here, we picked up Doug Gabriel(who stands at 6'2 215), Jabar Gaffney(6'2 205) Reche Caldwell(6'0 210) and drafted Chad Jackson(6'2 210). During his brief tenure with Denver, he drafted three receivers who we all over 6'0. Two of them (Thomas and Dekcer) were 6'3. He also picked up Gaffney and used him quite a bit. Lloyd is also above 6'0.

So there's clearly a bit of a preference to bigger receivers. The tight ends we have sort of mitigate the need a little bit, but the things they're able to do are still different than the things that those types of guys can.

The free agent wide receiver class is also pretty deep, with some potential good fits there too.

Razor
01-13-2012, 11:09 AM
I'm all for getting a bigger receiver, but I haven't looked at FAs. Which FA WRs are interesting? There are several bigger receivers I like in the draft, but given our history of "developing" receivers I'm not sure I want BB to waste a draft pick on a receiver.

nepg
01-13-2012, 01:59 PM
Brandon Lloyd is almost a lock to come to New England.

For bigger receivers, Dwayne Bowe is a free agent. *~*

ElectricEye
01-13-2012, 02:05 PM
If Bowe wants to come here for short money, I would be all over that. I just can't imagine that he does.

But Lloyd's large catching radius certainly sounds appealing. Wish we could have gotten a deal done for him earlier in the year.

nepg
01-14-2012, 11:25 PM
If Bowe wants to come here for short money, I would be all over that. I just can't imagine that he does.

But Lloyd's large catching radius certainly sounds appealing. Wish we could have gotten a deal done for him earlier in the year.
Ehh... I'm fine with getting Lloyd at a discount next year without having to compensate another team.

descendency
01-14-2012, 11:58 PM
We need to go up and get Michael Floyd.

Tom Brady would turn him into Larry Fitzgerald.

ElectricEye
01-15-2012, 12:00 AM
Is Devin McCourty a safety now? How we draft could tell us that. I feel like it's a little early to give up on him, but that was a rough ass year for him at corner. Dumbfounding after how stellar he was as a rookie. But he looks pretty solid in that spot so far.

Giantsfan1080
01-15-2012, 12:03 AM
Is Devin McCourty a safety now? How we draft could tell us that. I feel like it's a little early to give up on him, but that was a rough ass year for him at corner. Dumbfounding after how stellar he was as a rookie. But he looks pretty solid in that spot so far.

1 great year followed by a crap year. I don't think the switch is permanent but as of now his career is a wash.

ElectricEye
01-15-2012, 12:11 AM
1 great year followed by a crap year. I don't think the switch is permanent but as of now his career is a wash.

I don't even know how it's possible to play at a legitimate All-Pro type level in your first year and then sink as low as he did. It was just odd to watch. But he's well liked here as a guy who works hard and is always in the film room and has gotten a lot of credit as a leader. He looks far more comfortable with the play in front of him this season, and safety has been a pretty good way to utilize that. It will be interesting to watch for sure.

Giantsfan1080
01-15-2012, 12:16 AM
I don't even know how it's possible to play at a legitimate All-Pro type level in your first year and then sink as low as he did. It was just odd to watch. But he's well liked here as a guy who works hard and is always in the film room and has gotten a lot of credit as a leader. He looks far more comfortable with the play in front of him this season, and safety has been a pretty good way to utilize that. It will be interesting to watch for sure.

That's what I'm most shocked about. I actually never thought McCourty would be as good as he was last year and always thought he profiled at best as a #2 CB. I figured though that with his hard work and being a Rutgers guy that he would fight until the end and make the most of himself which he clearly did last year. He's not one to rest on his laurels though so I was shocked he fell off the as much as he did. I know it's not for a lack of effort on his part which is why I can't believe he was that bad. I think it might have been more a product of just being in bad defensive situations and he'll certainly bounce back next year.

descendency
01-15-2012, 01:12 AM
Is Devin McCourty a safety now? How we draft could tell us that. I feel like it's a little early to give up on him, but that was a rough ass year for him at corner. Dumbfounding after how stellar he was as a rookie. But he looks pretty solid in that spot so far.

Our safeties are paper thin. He's played corner mostly. I think he's just playing safety because of fatigue late in games.

ElectricEye
01-15-2012, 01:15 AM
Our safeties are paper thin. He's played corner mostly. I think he's just playing safety because of fatigue late in games.

He's played there when games were still alive too. I saw him playing there from the first quarter onward in passing situations.

Nalej
01-15-2012, 09:30 AM
I think McCourty has picked up his game towards the end of the season. I agree that his bad early play combined with our terrible S's is the reason he's back there.
Like you said though, the way we draft will sure to clarify what BB's plans for him are.

ElectricEye
01-15-2012, 11:22 AM
I think it's an interesting situation and one that kind of makes it tricky draft wise. I think we probably have to draft a safety, between Ihediblo and Chung being injured all that time....but if we're moving McCourty, we might need a corner too, as much as we would all dislike that. Sterling Moore has come on and has been very serviceable towards the end of the year and Molden has done some nice things too, particularly on the deep ball. I wish we would have mixed him in at safety too, because he really looks like he could do it.

Vaylor
01-15-2012, 11:30 AM
I think it's an interesting situation and one that kind of makes it tricky draft wise. I think we probably have to draft a safety, between Ihediblo and Chung being injured all that time....but if we're moving McCourty, we might need a corner too, as much as we would all dislike that. Sterling Moore has come on and has been very serviceable towards the end of the year and Molden has done some nice things too, particularly on the deep ball. I wish we would have mixed him in at safety too, because he really looks like he could do it.

I think it would be better to simply draft a Safety, or a CB who can convert to FS, and go with the McCourty-Dowling-Moore-Arrington at CB. Wouldn't mind taking a CB in the 3rd-4th round range to add depth.

nepg
01-15-2012, 11:33 AM
I don't think McCourty's a safety. I think the off-the-street corners they've brought in have just been better than the off-the-street safeties and the Patriots found a way to maximize the talent on the field.

I think McCourty could be moved to S, and that would probably be a solid move with Ras-I coming back and having a nice group of corners in the late-first, early-second range (Minnifield?).

Also, from what we've seen, I think Edelman could make a legitimate move to mainly CB with a full off-season and I think he'd be really good there. He's got the size, quickness, tackling, and speed to do it.

Even if you do move McCourty to S, it's still a high-priority draft need with the injury issues Chung has dealt with his entire career so far.

I think Edelman could be a great receiver, but Brady's timing with him is just off for some reason. I just don't get it. When he's in the slot, he's just as good as Welker. But put him outside with Welker in the game, and Brady over/under throws him every time.

nepg
01-15-2012, 11:36 AM
I think it would be better to simply draft a Safety, or a CB who can convert to FS, and go with the McCourty-Dowling-Moore-Arrington at CB. Wouldn't mind taking a CB in the 3rd-4th round range to add depth.
Yeah, I look at the Pats' needs as S, WR, Pass Rusher, and DL - in that order (even with Lloyd). And I think the first 4 picks in the draft should be those positions. They have two after that, and I believe those two picks should be used to grab a blocking TE and a CB.

People keep saying C, but Connolly and Wendell have both been ******* awesome since Koppen went down. They're both capable of dealing with the huge and athletic linemen that get thrown at this team every year.

AntoinCD
01-15-2012, 11:36 AM
I think it all comes down to value.

If someone like Janoris Jenkins was available at 28(27) and BB was ok with his character concerns then I would be all for drafting him at CB and moving McCourty more into a safety role.

However I wouldn't want to reach on someone like Hosley or Minnifield simply because McCourty may be a better fit at safety and would rather draft Barron if available at the end of the first, even though I don't love him as a prospect.

ElectricEye
01-15-2012, 11:37 AM
I really, really like Mark Barron...but not as a guy who can play centerfield. It's a shame Lester decided to go back to school. He would have been a great fit here. TJ McDonald was a big non-declare too.

I'm really pretty down on this safety class in general. Trumaine Johnson could be a guy we target in the later rounds because his physical skills could project to either spot.

AntoinCD
01-15-2012, 11:41 AM
I really, really like Mark Barron...but not as a guy who can play centerfield. It's a shame Lester decided to go back to school. He would have been a great fit here. TJ McDonald was a big non-declare too.

I'm really pretty down on this safety class in general. Trumaine Johnson could be a guy we target in the later rounds because his physical skills could project to either spot.

Yeah Barron's not going to be the guy who will be deep in cover 1. But since Chung is made of glass we wouldn't be as exposed as we were with Ihedigbo. I've never been a huge fan of Barron but I would love a big nickel package with Barron, Chung and McCourty playing safety. So much versatility there.

ElectricEye
01-15-2012, 11:44 AM
To be honest, I would rather have Barron than Chung. Chung is a good player, but Barron basically projects to be a bigger and better version of him. I wouldn't spend a draft pick on something like that though, so that's off the table for me.

I'll be very mad if we draft a guy who can't can't cover. I can see it happening because we've got defensiveback downs syndrome, but I'll be very mad.

Babylon
01-15-2012, 11:45 AM
I think there is a need on both sides of the line, interior C/G and DT on the other side of the ball. Would probably then look for a good young WR and another OLB somewhat in that order: some guys that interest me that may not be available without some maneuvering:

David DeCastro,g
Peter Konz, c
Devon Still, dt
Michael Brockers, dl
Kendall Wright, wr
Donta Hightower, lb

AntoinCD
01-15-2012, 11:50 AM
I think there is a need on both sides of the line, interior C/G and DT on the other side of the ball. Would probably then look for a good young WR and another OLB somewhat in that order: some guys that interest me that may not be available without some maneuvering:

David DeCastro,g
Peter Konz, c
Devon Still, dt
Michael Brockers, dl
Kendall Wright, wr
Donta Hightower, lb

DeCastro's a pipe dream and IMO OG is a luxury pick at this point. Mankins is entrenched as a long term starter and Waters has outplayed him this year IMO. Plus Marcus Cannon is always waiting and of course Connolly can step in if needed.

I would be very tempted to take Konz if he were available at the pick but I don't see offensive line as a huge need.

I love the potential Brockers has as a 5 technique but he will probably be a very fast riser and be gone by when we pick. After that I don't love the defensive line prospects in the draft.

Wright would be a nice choice at WR and Hightower is someone i would look at in the second to fill Ninkovich's role.

However the main focus in the first round needs to be in the defensive backfield.

nepg
01-15-2012, 04:19 PM
OG isn't a need. Cannon projects there with an off-season to learn the position and Waters might come back. Even if Cannon isn't ready to go, Wendell has looked good at OG when he's been asked to step in. The team simply has no needs along the OL. Not starters, not depth. They've got (comparative to the rest of the league) good to great starters and great depth at every position and they're also pretty young.

DL... I don't know. They looked really good with basically 3 NTs playing a 3-man front against Denver and I wouldn't be surprised to see them continue that. If they can add a more talented player to that group, I'd be all for it. Dontari Poe, Wilfork, and Love lining up... All 3 command a double team. I think Belichick has had this crazy idea for awhile now... A 3-4 with 3 NTs. That's why we've seen him bring in Brace, Deaderick, Pryor, Love, and Warren... And I LOVE the idea.

I'd be OK with them moving McCourty to that centerfield job. If Belichick thinks he can be his Ed Reed...why not? They haven't had trouble finding talented corners (getting them to execute with confidence has been another issue since Hobbs/Samuel).

I'd absolutely use a draft pick to get a guy just like Chung, but healthy. **** Chung at this point. If he's healthy on a given day, he can be the nickel safety. But I'd be happier with a playmaker like McCourty and a smart, sturdy SS like Barron back there in base formations. If Ras-I can get and stay healthy, they'd have a really nice secondary without making any other moves.

Also, with Barron/Chung, remember that, outside of Meriweather who sucked and maybe Tebucky Jones, they've never really had a guy that was a centerfield type of safety. Geno and Rodney/Milloy were basically the same player. And that same player is what Barron/Chung are (except both are infinitely more talented than Geno).

I'd be OK with them basing the order of S, WR, DL, and Pass rusher being picked on value, but I feel pretty strongly that those are the positions that need to be filled in the first two rounds of the draft regardless of free agency and intrapersonnel movement.

TACKLE
01-15-2012, 04:28 PM
I'd be OK with them moving McCourty to that centerfield job. If Belichick thinks he can be his Ed Reed...why not?

Totally agree. If Belichick thinks McCourty can be the best free safety in NFL history, you're absolutely right...why not put him back there!

nepg
01-15-2012, 04:31 PM
Totally agree. If Belichick thinks McCourty can be the best free safety in NFL history, you're absolutely right...why not put him back there!
Belichick's been looking for his Ed Reed for the longest time, man. Most of them have been so bad, they don't even see the field. But I don't hate that he keeps trying. If he moves McCourty to FS, that's probably the best chance to get his man he's ever had.

It's weird because a lot of CBs will fight that move, but McCourty seems to want to move to safety. And I think that's the biggest thing. The guy wants to move to that position.

descendency
01-16-2012, 04:50 AM
Wright would be a nice choice at WR and Hightower is someone i would look at in the second to fill Ninkovich's role.

Wright has speed (and burst), but I wonder how that will work out for us.

Hightower can basically play any position on the defense we need him to. I can see him being a high 20s pick, which may mean we will have to think about someone else. He's a lot faster on tape than I remember live a lot of times.

Nalej
01-17-2012, 06:03 PM
NFL.com posted their mocks. Four to be exact.
This is what they came up with:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/mock-drafts?campaign=facebook_draft

-FLETCHER COX/CHASE MINNIFIELD
-ANDRE BRANCH/CHASE MINNIFIELD
-COURTNEY UPSHAW/DONTARI POE
-FLETCHER COX/ALFONZO DENNARD

Thoughts?

Oh, and they have us picking 32nd :)
(49ers @ 31)

Blackluck
01-19-2012, 05:30 AM
Upshaw and Dennard won't be there when we pick.

And Matthew Jones drafted both Minnifield and Branch in the forum mock, so there's that :) Although honestly if we draft Minnifield with the 27th pick it will be deflating. We need an impact OLB/DL/Safety, not another zone CB.

I also think Konz would be a good pick there as well if he's available. If the remaining time Brady has with the team is going to be predicated on how well the O-Line plays, it'd behoove us to have an 'elite' unit.

ElectricEye
01-19-2012, 09:29 AM
I like Fletcher Cox a lot. We avoided taking a similar fit for our defense last year in Cameron Jordan, but I really want to get some athletic ability along the defensive line if we can't find a way to get someone like Brockers. Those guys are going far higher than we're picking these days.

We've touched on it a bit before too, but I like Poe some. Brockers coming out hurts his stock a bit, so if he lasts until our pick that's an interesting way to get a legit two gap five technique. There's a few things that make me nervous with him, but he can do a lot of things other guys just can't with his size and strength.

Nalej
01-19-2012, 10:46 AM
I love the idea of Poe next to Wilfork. Poor man's Ngata in his size playing 34 DE.
I loooovveeeee ittttt
Desc mentioned it, and I agree, that BB is trying to set up a DL of all NT's (or NT sized DL)
Poe will definitely be fit the bill perfectly

ElectricEye
01-23-2012, 11:51 PM
It'll be interesting to get a look at some of these defensive backs in these Senior Bowl practices. I'm having a hard time flipping the switch to talent evaluation with the season still alive, but I'm not complaining whatsoever haha.

Markelle Martin and Georga Iloka passed the eyeball test, supposedly. Iloka played pretty well, supposedly. I liked the little bits I saw out of Harrison Smith too. Martin is probably the best fit out of those guys in terms of what we need, but Smith may be my favorite. Really like the way he plays and I feel like I underrated him as an athlete a little bit.

Jvig43
01-24-2012, 12:08 AM
It's kind of sad were still talking about drafting DBs with how many weve taken over the last five years. Then again, we STILL have yet to try and get an impact pass rusher so maybe its not that bad? I think Poe is real long shot to be anywhere near us at that point in the draft but I'm with Nalej, would be great to add another big capable body next to Wilfork.

nepg
01-24-2012, 01:05 AM
I've been a big Martin fan for awhile now. I don't think they've drafted DBs that have any lack of talent. They have just had a ton of problems with injuries and mismanaging some of the veterans (Page, Sanders, Bodden?).

This defense would look infinitely better with James Sanders back there making sure everyone knew their assignments. I was disappointed when they cut him and it's had a huge affect on the defensive performance this year.

The Pats need to add two safeties and a corner.

Blackluck
01-24-2012, 04:10 AM
Trying to avoid thinking about the Super Bowl, so I'm reading scouting reports ;)

I agree, losing Sanders has really hurt. Communication is crucial and we're out of place a lot in the back end.

What do you guys think of Dre Kirkpatrick as a FS if he drops?
This (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=40798)scouting report looks promising: Range, good instincts, good tackler. I think it's unlikely he'll drop as far as 27, but there just aren't any safeties that look like they'll make an appreciable difference in either the draft of free agency.

Another CB that looks like a possible position switch is Trumaine Johnson, although would probably be quite a project. Last week we worked out five DBs for future contracts, so that might clue us in where we focus on the draft (again.) We just can't seem to coach these guys up.

descendency
01-24-2012, 05:15 AM
I could see Kirkpatrick at safety. He'd be there if they didn't have Lester and Barron.

AntoinCD
01-24-2012, 08:57 AM
I am really liking either Martin or Iloka in the second now for the Pats. Martin could be a true FS and let Chung play in the box or Iloka can do either and gives more versatility. Harrison Smith I like in the 3rd round.

I really don't like the idea of Kirkpatrick in the first to play safety. Not saying he couldn't do it but with McCourty who has played safety this year and I remember people saying Dowling may be better suited to safety I think we have enough CB/S tweeners

Nalej
01-24-2012, 09:07 AM
Agreed. I like the idea of adding Martin. I've had a little bit to watch some Martin and think he would fit well. Mainly, especially, next to Chung.

ElectricEye
01-24-2012, 10:40 AM
If Kirkpatrick drops, I'm taking him and asking questions about his position later. Really talented guy. He might be a bit overrated a shutdown type guy, but he displayed REALLY good instincts and a great ability to be a factor in the run game in the National Championship. He has some character things with his arrest, but I would still take him.

Blackluck
01-25-2012, 08:45 AM
(My first ever mock; this is how I think BB will draft, not who I would want.)

27 Ben Jones, C
Rational: A reach here, but Konz will be gone. Texans will not resign their FA center, Ravens need to replace Birk, meaning there will be competition for the top centers in this draft class. BB will draft a player earlier than he projects (Vollmer, Mankins) if he feels he can't get equivalent value later on.

31 M. Martin, Safety
Rational: We always trade this pick; possible trade partners, Seattle or Washington for Tannehill. However, Ravens and Packers always like to trade down too, so there may not be anyone to trade with. Going to be largely dependant on how the board develops. Regardless, we'll pick here or top of the second anyway and take one of the top safeties in the draft.

48 Brandon Thompson, DT
Rational: Will BB ever draft an OLB/DE prospect early? My answer is no, that's why we won't see someone like Jones or Branch in a Patriot uniform. If Jared Crick falls maybe that's the pick here instead. I honestly don't know if we would go CB here again, but with Dowling and Mccourty (regression notwithstanding) maybe BB thinks we don't need another 2nd round CB.

64: Harrison Smith, Safety
We double up on our biggest position of need. Safety play is problematic league wide though so there may be a run early on safeties.

3rd round:
Brandon Boykin, CB/KR/PR DB depth, and we need to upgrade the return game.

Didn't draft any WR as I think we'll fill WR need in free agency, and well Brady doesn't like rookies :)

cmarq83
01-25-2012, 12:19 PM
(My first ever mock; this is how I think BB will draft, not who I would want.)

27 Ben Jones, C
Rational: A reach here, but Konz will be gone. Texans will not resign their FA center, Ravens need to replace Birk, meaning there will be competition for the top centers in this draft class. BB will draft a player earlier than he projects (Vollmer, Mankins) if he feels he can't get equivalent value later on.

31 M. Martin, Safety
Rational: We always trade this pick; possible trade partners, Seattle or Washington for Tannehill. However, Ravens and Packers always like to trade down too, so there may not be anyone to trade with. Going to be largely dependant on how the board develops. Regardless, we'll pick here or top of the second anyway and take one of the top safeties in the draft.

48 Brandon Thompson, DT
Rational: Will BB ever draft an OLB/DE prospect early? My answer is no, that's why we won't see someone like Jones or Branch in a Patriot uniform. If Jared Crick falls maybe that's the pick here instead. I honestly don't know if we would go CB here again, but with Dowling and Mccourty (regression notwithstanding) maybe BB thinks we don't need another 2nd round CB.

64: Harrison Smith, Safety
We double up on our biggest position of need. Safety play is problematic league wide though so there may be a run early on safeties.

3rd round:
Brandon Boykin, CB/KR/PR DB depth, and we need to upgrade the return game.

Didn't draft any WR as I think we'll fill WR need in free agency, and well Brady doesn't like rookies :)

I like the idea of drafting both Smith and Martin, so I'm on board even though I don't like Martin's value there. It's our biggest need, and the easiest way to upgrade the overall D so I'll take it.

I hate the Jones pick because he's just not a first round talent, and whereas C is a spot that could use an upgrade, it's not a major pressing need at the moment because of how good our guard play has been. Konz is a good pick for me, but I'm not high enough on Jones to consider that spot for him.

I hate the Thompson pick with a venemous passion. He's essentially a very similar player to Brandon Deaderick who we have locked up for 2 more years on the cheap. Any DL we draft needs to be a pass rush presence because even in our 40 front I would pencil in our 2 best defensive players (Wilfork, Love) at the DT spots. Somebody with some decent size who can rush from the outside would be ideal. Shaun Ellis has failed hardcore doing that this year, but honestly I'd be ok with a Jerel Worthy, Jared Crick, or Derek Wolfe type in the late second for no other reason than the fact that they have some pass rush potential, and could play LE for us.

Here's how mine would look:

Trade pick 27 and 49 to the Jets for pick 16. Pats select Michael Floyd

Try to avoid the problem of trading with the Jets, it would make the most sense for everybody involved (Jets have a ton of needs, Pats need elite talent). So even though it won't happen that's the trade I made for right now.

I figure if the Pats lose in the playoffs it'll be for 1 of 2 reasons. This pick addresses one of those reasons which is the need of an outside receiver. Floyd has exceptional talent and could end up being the best receiver from this class when it's all said and done. I like the value of players in the teens (Floyd, Jenkins, Kirkpatrick, and hopefully Brockers) so I'd like to see them make a move there.

Pick 32: Melvin Ingram

Pats fans are a little torn about who they like as the late 1st round pass rusher du jour for this year. I'm smitten with Melvin Ingram, to me he has the highest positional versatility at the next level. His burst is good, and he impresses me the most with the best inside moves of anybody else I've seen in this class. He might take a while to find a true position in the NFL, but having him receive tutelage behind Andre Carter could be an ideal situation.

Pick 64: Markell Martin

We need a coverage safety and Martin is the best one in the class.

Pick 96: Harrison Smith

I've made my position on Harrison Smith clear here before.

Pick 128: Joe Adams

We need some deep speed in the receiver corps, and someone to get Danny Woodhead far, far away from the KR spot.

Razor
01-25-2012, 01:01 PM
I love the fact that you hate the Brandon Thompson pick with a venemous passion. That's nearly half of my hate for that pick lol. However, I would hate Melvin Ingram twice as much since he would in paper fill a need. The problem is that he's going to bust in the NFL. He was moved around all year and was matched up on the opponent's weakest players. He sucks, and I want no part of him.

ElectricEye
01-25-2012, 01:55 PM
I just don't see what a guy like Thompson does to help our defensive line out. Limited value in a 4-3, not really a good fit on the edge in a 3-4. If we're taking defensive line guys, even if we're taking bigger guys, we need to get more athletic. Flacco and the Ravens really exposed that as something that's very flawed with our base front.

Blackluck
01-26-2012, 03:24 AM
While I would love the Pats to move up if a potential impact player falls to 15-20 - Dre, Upshaw come to mind - I can't see BB doing that for a receiver, even though it's evident we do need a WR who can beat press man coverage and/or get the down the field.

Ingram looks interesting in the Senior Bowl practices I've seen, but those 30" arms are such a red flag.

You guys have convinced me on the Thompson pick :)

I still think we're taking a center early lol ... if the book on Brady is pressure up the middle we need a stout interior line (which a top flight center would complete imo.)

And yeah I would put KR/PR as a need position for this team.

nepg
01-27-2012, 10:49 AM
If Edelman didn't have to play so much, KR/PR wouldn't be an issue at all. Get more players to allow him to stick to a position (I think he's been a damn good nickel/dime corner).

ElectricEye
01-27-2012, 11:14 AM
One receiver I'm really, really liking now that I'm sitting down and taking a look at him properly is Chris Givens. I like his speed(although testing will huge huge here), hands, and route running ability. Really good after the catch too. I'm not sure that he solves our issues at wide receiver or is someone that we should be targeting early, but the skill set and production are an intriguing option for one of those extra 4th round picks we always manage to pick up.

But I agree about a kick returner. Returns aren't something I really put premium value on, but you've got to get something out of that position and at the very least have someone who is a threat. We don't have anyone like that on the roster right now. Edelman is good for his one punt return TD in garbage time at the end of the year, but the vast majority of the time he doesn't do anything. On kickoffs, it's even worse.

One guy I really wanted to see in Mobile was TY Hilton. Really liked what I saw out of him during the season, but he went down with an injury. That's the biggest concern with him. He's got speed to burn and has been an effective vertical receiver for FIU as well, but he's got a small, frail frame and I've seen him taken in and out of games multiple times.

cmarq83
01-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I love the fact that you hate the Brandon Thompson pick with a venemous passion. That's nearly half of my hate for that pick lol. However, I would hate Melvin Ingram twice as much since he would in paper fill a need. The problem is that he's going to bust in the NFL. He was moved around all year and was matched up on the opponent's weakest players. He sucks, and I want no part of him.

I don't see/get the Ingram hate at all. I watched a ton of South Carolina games last year, and he was the best player on a defense with a lot of future NFL talent on it.The moving on the line had more to do with the fact that he could kick inside whereas Clowney and Taylor could not. The fact that he was able to penetrate and get consistent pressure inside on 3rd downs with those short arms are a positive more than anything else.

His counter moves are exceptional, his burst is superior to most of the other pass rushers going in his range, and I think he could probably handle standing up at the next level. He is pretty squatty, and is stout at the point of attack which is perfect for a gap control system such as ours. His speed is also an asset because passers have been able to break the pocket against us because of interior pressure, but our ends haven't been quick enough to catch up. I've seen Ingram regularly chase down passers and it's something we definitely need.

cmarq83
01-27-2012, 11:32 AM
One receiver I'm really, really liking now that I'm sitting down and taking a look at him properly is Chris Givens. I like his speed(although testing will huge huge here), hands, and route running ability. Really good after the catch too. I'm not sure that he solves our issues at wide receiver or is someone that we should be targeting early, but the skill set and production are an intriguing option for one of those extra 4th round picks we always manage to pick up.

But I agree about a kick returner. Returns aren't something I really put premium value on, but you've got to get something out of that position and at the very least have someone who is a threat. We don't have anyone like that on the roster right now. Edelman is good for his one punt return TD in garbage time at the end of the year, but the vast majority of the time he doesn't do anything. On kickoffs, it's even worse.

One guy I really wanted to see in Mobile was TY Hilton. Really liked what I saw out of him during the season, but he went down with an injury. That's the biggest concern with him. He's got speed to burn and has been an effective vertical receiver for FIU as well, but he's got a small, frail frame and I've seen him taken in and out of games multiple times.

Edelman IMO is an above average punt returner. There aren't a ton of guys outside Peterson/Cribbs/Hester who return multiple a year, and it'd be difficult to upgrade that spot. I've been satisfied with Edelman's awareness so far, and I think he can make that one move to get you an extra 10 yards so far. He's been consistent so far which is all you can really ask.

KR however, is an absolute disaster. I think Danny Woodhead has returned 1 this year past the 20 yard line, and he fumbled it. I hope Vereen is active next year and can take over the roll but I'm not holding my breath. I'd consider McCourty there too. I think we should take a chance on a Rainey or Adams type guy in the mid rounds to see if they can add some explosion to the return/ vertical passing game, even if we go receiver high in the draft. Right now our depth chart for next year is so fluid, it'll probably be just Welker and we can go from there.

Nalej
01-27-2012, 11:58 AM
Anyone know anything about TJ Graham?
I haven't been able to watch the Senior Bowl practices but he got high praise from Scott.
Looks like he's a KR as well... anyone seen him first hand?

ElectricEye
01-27-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm not really complaining about Edelman. He is what he is. He catches the ball pretty well and makes good decisions on when to call for a fair catch and when to try to get something, so that's really all I'll ask for from that spot. So I'm not really complaining about him there, but it wouldn't be bad if we found someone who was an upgrade there, but I'm not counting on it. I agree that it's unrealistic to find someone like Cribbs or Hester. So I can live with what we're getting from him, totally. Not sure he's on the roster next year, but he's done himself some favors by showing positional flexibility. At this point, I feel pretty confident in saying that if he does stick around, it won't be for what we think he can do as a pure receiver. But that's a discussion for another time, I suppose.

As far as in house return options go, none of them are really that compelling. McCourty is probably the best suited to do it athletically, but with his recent brush with injuries and struggles at his position, I'm not sure increasing his workload is the best idea in the world. Rainey and Adams are interesting names for sure. Really liked what I saw out of Rainey as a receiver in Mobile, actually. It's just tough for defensive backs to stay with him with his speed. I'm not sure how we would fit a player like him on the roster though, as he might not have a whole ton of positional value initially. He's raw as a receiver and it's tough to find carries for a back like him with as many guys as we have on the roster right now and with Woodhead filling the type of niche he would, likely at a higher level too(although Rainey is probably the better receiver of the two). That' just a tough sell for me, especially when he hasn't really been used extensively as a returner in the past. Adams or Hilton are more realistic options and are the type of guys who could be complementary players in our receiving core on top of improving our kick returns.

There's some interesting names in free agency too. Some of them will be overpaid, but there are a few guys who could be fits here. I can't really see us paying open market dollar for a kick return guy though.

ElectricEye
01-27-2012, 12:08 PM
Anyone know anything about TJ Graham?
I haven't been able to watch the Senior Bowl practices but he got high praise from Scott.
Looks like he's a KR as well... anyone seen him first hand?

He came out scorching in the first two days. On the third day, when things got a bit more physical he didn't do quite as well as a receiver. Didn't really get to see much of him as a returning at the Senior Bowl or over his career, but the numbers are fairly strong. Interesting option as a receiver too, but I think he'll be drafted a bit higher than he should be and is more of a role player in the NFL, so the value might not be quite right. If he's available in the later rounds, I wouldn't really mind bringing him in at all.

Nalej
01-27-2012, 12:11 PM
He came out scorching in the first two days. On the third day, when things got a bit more physical he didn't do quite as well as a receiver. Didn't really get to see much of him as a returning at the Senior Bowl or over his career, but the numbers are fairly strong. Interesting option as a receiver too, but I think he'll be drafted a bit higher than he should be and is more of a role player in the NFL, so the value might not be quite right. If he's available in the later rounds, I wouldn't really mind bringing him in at all.

Yea, I figured he'd be our "deep threat" compliment if we did add him.
Scott has him initially ranked as the #36 WR so I figured he'd come at a low draft slot.
Anything can change though from then (when Scott made his rankings) til draft day.

ElectricEye
01-27-2012, 12:24 PM
Yeah, that's with anticipating a bump up with him. I really didn't like what I saw out of him fit wise for us(think Brandon Tate), so I'm not sure the value is there for us.

Nalej
01-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Yea but B.Tate > Underwood. Wish we still had him, honestly. He's a beat of a KR, at least.

ElectricEye
01-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Well, it's certainly pretty damn clear we cut the wrong guy. I think there's more than a few situations where he could have helped us out in a big way(he damn sure would have done more than Chad this season), last week being one of them. Hindsight is 20/20 though. Price had way more upside as a receiver and I can't really fault us for trying to move ahead with that. That whole situation just went as awfully as it could possibly go.

Blackluck
01-27-2012, 06:57 PM
What happened with Price, exactly? Anyone know? I never found out any details.

descendency
01-28-2012, 05:01 PM
I know it's early in the process and Michael Brockers will fly up the boards...

but yet another mock has us taking him (one of SI's) alongside Dont'a Hightower.

Personally, if Dont'a Hightower plays up to his reputation, that could be an A+ first round. Hightower can play ILB, OLB/DE in any scheme.

Brockers could play both the 3tech and 5tech in our even and odd fronts, though, he's probably going to be a panther unless something crazy happens.

nepg
01-28-2012, 06:17 PM
I like Hightower as a base ILB who can do other things, but they are set at ILB. There are other, much better options to fill the gaps they need to fill.

nepg
01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
Well, it's certainly pretty damn clear we cut the wrong guy. I think there's more than a few situations where he could have helped us out in a big way(he damn sure would have done more than Chad this season), last week being one of them. Hindsight is 20/20 though. Price had way more upside as a receiver and I can't really fault us for trying to move ahead with that. That whole situation just went as awfully as it could possibly go.
I never liked cutting Tate. He did too much all over the field to warrant the axe on top of being a decent deep threat even though his development wasn't quite where they wanted it.

descendency
01-28-2012, 06:43 PM
I like Hightower as a base ILB who can do other things, but they are set at ILB. There are other, much better options to fill the gaps they need to fill.

If they go after him, it'll be as an OLB. Most people think he can play 34 ILB, 43 OLB, 34 OLB, and 43 DE. He played a little of all 3 (obviously not 43 OLB) at Alabama.

Matthew Jones
02-02-2012, 11:05 PM
Anyone else see Cox as a fun addition to the team if Belichick is willing to restructure the defense in order to incorporate him, whereas someone like Hightower would fit the system as-is but wouldn't be so exciting unless the value was good.

ElectricEye
02-02-2012, 11:12 PM
At this point, I'm an adapt the system to the talent you can get kind of guy. We can't just try to recreate teams from the template of the past. It's foolish to do so in this kind of personnel environment. The guys you need to run that sort of system just aren't around where we're picking anymore. I think Baltimore did a real good job of exposing our lack of athletic ability of the defensive line when they got out on the edge with those rollouts. Extending plays has been a problem around here for awhile now and one of the best ways to fix that is adding somebody athletic and active like Cox.

cmarq83
02-06-2012, 07:55 AM
I'm officially on the trade up for Morris Claiborne bandwagon 1/109892795792 chance of happening, but a big time secondary player is just what the doctor ordered.

toonsterwu
02-07-2012, 05:47 PM
Random thoughts on the Pats draft -

It's hard to imagine the Pats getting too aggressive and moving up for someone. The one receiver that, gut feeling, that they might like would be Kendall Wright, and if he slips a bit, I think they could go after him. He fits their style, but I tend to think Wright goes much higher than people think (I could see him mid-first, reminds me of Lee Evans value coming out).

This is probably a great draft for the Pats to be the Pats. Deal down, amass picks later or for the future. The potential values and fits in the 2nd-4th round areas are awfully good for them. I imagine that, with a full off-season, that they will go with more odd-fronts (and considering they have a really nice linebacking group in development). While Markelle Carter is interesting, and Jermaine Cunningham still holds fascination, I wouldn't be surprised if they added to it.

For many years, I've never really thought there was an ideal Patriots rush backer pick early (loved Jabal Sheard, but not really ideal for the Pats). In Cam Johnson, I think this is as close as ideal for the Pats scheme, provided he checks out off-field. Former DB, played rush backer, learned to set the edge as a base 4-3 end. Would probably lose some weight to play rush backer again. Learned to be disciplined. And he's a guy that might be there mid-2nd-mid-3rd.

I tend to think they ought to wait on CB's. They want an instinctual guy, so that doesn't necessarily necessitate a high CB pick in this draft, as the depth is so good (Chase Minnifield seems like an excellent fit for them, but there's others). A big center is needed, and outside of Konz, they are better off going with someone in the 2nd-4th range as well.

I wonder if Belichick plucks a WR specimen again, someone like Dwight Jones. Not a great fit on paper, but the physical tools may entice. I'd actually like to see them upgrade the DL a bit, but my hunch is that the talent likely won't fit their intrigue, and that they might feel, with Wilfork in his prime and Love developing, they can afford to go after vet FA's to fill out the depth chart for competition.

The decision on McCourty may be the most fascinating. He's clearly better in zone-read concepts, but the talent is too intriguing to not give it another go. Of course, putting him at FS could address a huge need for range if they upgrade at CB.

I tend to think Hoyer may be dealt for picks (perhaps future picks).

bored of education
02-07-2012, 05:51 PM
the toonster typeths!

D-Unit
02-07-2012, 05:52 PM
A toonster post???


...BOING!!!

descendency
02-07-2012, 06:44 PM
It's hard to imagine the Pats getting too aggressive and moving up for someone. The one receiver that, gut feeling, that they might like would be Kendall Wright, and if he slips a bit, I think they could go after him. He fits their style, but I tend to think Wright goes much higher than people think (I could see him mid-first, reminds me of Lee Evans value coming out).

Take it from a pats fan, the Patriots will not draft a WR in round 1. First, Bill Belichick wants all of his first rounders to be 3+ down players and in the Patriots offense, that means being able to be part of one of the more complicated hurry up offenses in the NFL. The Patriots are far more likely to go after a veteran FA than even consider drafting a WR in round 1, let alone trade up for one.

I'd love Kendall Wright, Michael Floyd, or even Alshon Jeffery (if the background checks pass).

This is probably a great draft for the Pats to be the Pats. Deal down, amass picks later or for the future. The potential values and fits in the 2nd-4th round areas are awfully good for them. I imagine that, with a full off-season, that they will go with more odd-fronts (and considering they have a really nice linebacking group in development). While Markelle Carter is interesting, and Jermaine Cunningham still holds fascination, I wouldn't be surprised if they added to it.

Is that a nice way to say that this draft class (in round 1) is very pathetic? Because I'd agree. The Pats needs are not aligned with this class.

For many years, I've never really thought there was an ideal Patriots rush backer pick early (loved Jabal Sheard, but not really ideal for the Pats). In Cam Johnson, I think this is as close as ideal for the Pats scheme, provided he checks out off-field. Former DB, played rush backer, learned to set the edge as a base 4-3 end. Would probably lose some weight to play rush backer again. Learned to be disciplined. And he's a guy that might be there mid-2nd-mid-3rd.

Agreed on this.

I tend to think they ought to wait on CB's. They want an instinctual guy, so that doesn't necessarily necessitate a high CB pick in this draft, as the depth is so good (Chase Minnifield seems like an excellent fit for them, but there's others). A big center is needed, and outside of Konz, they are better off going with someone in the 2nd-4th range as well.

I'm a big Brandon Boykin guy. He needs to be better in the run game, but he's got Patriots written all over him.

I'm not really that wowed by Konz. I personally think the Pats are better off waiting for round 4 and taking a shot there at a center. Dan Koppen doesn't really impress me, but I'd rather have Koppen (or Connolly) than a high pick in this class on a center.

I wonder if Belichick plucks a WR specimen again, someone like Dwight Jones. Not a great fit on paper, but the physical tools may entice. I'd actually like to see them upgrade the DL a bit, but my hunch is that the talent likely won't fit their intrigue, and that they might feel, with Wilfork in his prime and Love developing, they can afford to go after vet FA's to fill out the depth chart for competition.

Someone suggested Steven Hill, but quite frankly, both are major projects with their route running.

The decision on McCourty may be the most fascinating. He's clearly better in zone-read concepts, but the talent is too intriguing to not give it another go. Of course, putting him at FS could address a huge need for range if they upgrade at CB.
They'll need to address the safety position in either FA or the draft. Hopefully the draft.

I tend to think Hoyer may be dealt for picks (perhaps future picks).

Eh... I'd be shocked if anyone gave up more than a very late mid round pick for him. I like him, but he has no film and he doesn't have elite skills.

Razor
02-26-2012, 04:21 AM
I just had the weirdest thought: Would I be upset if we took Lamar Miller in the first? No. He reminds me so much of Clinton Portis. I know that we all want to see what Ridley can do and especially Vereen, but none of those guys can hold a candle to Miller... Just saying... I'm not rooting for Miller in the first though....

Vaylor
02-26-2012, 07:55 AM
Taking a 1st round RB after barely using the two we drafted last year would be rage inducing.

Nalej
02-26-2012, 08:02 AM
Taking a 1st round RB after barely using the two we drafted last year would be rage inducing.

RAGE! I tell you!

BradysKnee
02-26-2012, 02:39 PM
RAGE! I tell you!

Even I'd be really pissed.

Thunder&Lightning
02-28-2012, 10:14 AM
Janoris Jenkins is my dream draft pick with a late round pick. CB major need, kid has top 15 talent with terrible character, Patriots need him and could handle him.

Razor
02-28-2012, 01:42 PM
Jenkins would be a great pick, I'd love for that to happen. I don't think he'll fall that far though. Also, I don't view CB as a huge need since we have Dowling coming back, McCourty could still turn out well and Arrington with in the slot CB shouldn't be a priority in the draft. I think they'll target a veteran in FA instead tbh.

TNPatsFan
02-28-2012, 06:19 PM
You can never have too many CB's, and the Pats don't have enough. Sterling Moore, Antwaun Molden, and Julian Edelman played significant time at CB in the playoffs. That right there tells me there's a need at the position. And there may be varied opinions on Arrington but I personally think he is mediocre at best and really should be back playing special teams only and not playing CB.

McCourty looked great as a rookie. I think he proved he can be a good CB. But that begs the question why he looked so bad this past season. It's a major unknown whether or not he will ever play again like he did as a rookie.

I like Dowling a lot. He could be a good one. But again it's a huge unknown because the guy has never proven he can stay healthy.

Bottom line for me, they have a couple good yet questionable CB's in McCourty and Dowling, an ok one in Arrington, and not much else. And while I don't think CB is their biggest need, this may be the worst draft for safeties that I have ever seen, so I think just drafting DB's in general (or signing them as FA's), no matter if they are CB or S's, would be a very wise move.

Razor
02-29-2012, 09:17 AM
I'd be perfectly happy moving forward with McCourty, Dowling, Arrington, Moore and some FA veteran or an UDFA. There's loads of potential in that group, they just haven't had a chance since the DL failed to consistently make opposing QBs uncomfortable. I'd much rather spend our picks on building a stout DL and getting a pair of athletic OLBs who can actually chase down QBs when they leave the pocket. Andre Branch and Shea McClellin comes to mind. If you really want to address the defensive backfield let's grab a safety. Heck, let's take two! Harrison Smith, Mark Barron and Brandon Taylor would all fit in well. Besides, after the mess BB created by cutting Sanders we only have Chung left who should actually play in the NFL and he can't stay healthy to save his life ffs. I fully expect BB to aggressively target the safety position in FA. Michael Griffin is my favorite in that group.

I know the CBs didn't look good, but we can't go the Detroit route and draft a CB high every year. I think we need to let the players develop and instead surround the DBs with talent where we don't have it now: DE, S and OLB.

cmarq83
02-29-2012, 02:03 PM
I'd be perfectly happy moving forward with McCourty, Dowling, Arrington, Moore and some FA veteran or an UDFA. There's loads of potential in that group, they just haven't had a chance since the DL failed to consistently make opposing QBs uncomfortable. I'd much rather spend our picks on building a stout DL and getting a pair of athletic OLBs who can actually chase down QBs when they leave the pocket. Andre Branch and Shea McClellin comes to mind. If you really want to address the defensive backfield let's grab a safety. Heck, let's take two! Harrison Smith, Mark Barron and Brandon Taylor would all fit in well. Besides, after the mess BB created by cutting Sanders we only have Chung left who should actually play in the NFL and he can't stay healthy to save his life ffs. I fully expect BB to aggressively target the safety position in FA. Michael Griffin is my favorite in that group.

I know the CBs didn't look good, but we can't go the Detroit route and draft a CB high every year. I think we need to let the players develop and instead surround the DBs with talent where we don't have it now: DE, S and OLB.

I think most of this is wishful thinking. I like Dowling, but I think you need to presume at this point that the likelihood is that he's going to get hurt. McCourty you need to look at with a grain of salt too. You've got Arrington who played extremely poorly last year despite notching all those interceptions and a twice cut UDFA in Moore who has 2 good games in his career. In no way is this a settled position. In fact besides safety this was easily the worst position on the entire team last season. Potential is great, but if they're truly going to make it they should be able to make it on the field regardless of who is in their way.

I'd jump for joy if the Pats signed Lardarius Webb to an offer sheet or signed Carr, Porter, Rodgers, Thomas, ect. There is nothing wrong with adding another guy. I don't particularly like most of the corners in this class besides Jenkins or Claiborne(obviously), but a second round guy might be ok. Sooner or later you're bound to eventually hit. Competition is a good thing, and the team can't win the Superbowl if the corners continue to play as god awful as they did last year.

FlyingElvis
02-29-2012, 02:18 PM
The line of thinking whereby the Pats don't need a CB sounds just like it did two years ago when we grabbed McCourty. The only difference is that we've switched up some names. The rough equivalent looks like this:
Hobbs=Arrington, Bodden=Dowling and McCourty=Springs (albeit much younger.)

Arguments can be made for any position defensively, really. The only spot that doesn't need an upgrade is NT. But even there we could use some depth, as Vince just can't handle the massive workload BB is dumping on him. Mayo / Chung / Spikes are solid. Carter / Anderson / McCourty are wildcards for various reasons, and everything else on D needs help. Honestly, the only difference from one position to the next on D is that some are in desperate need of help, while others have servicable players manning the spot currently.

Razor
02-29-2012, 02:24 PM
I think most of this is wishful thinking. I like Dowling, but I think you need to presume at this point that the likelihood is that he's going to get hurt. McCourty you need to look at with a grain of salt too. You've got Arrington who played extremely poorly last year despite notching all those interceptions and a twice cut UDFA in Moore who has 2 good games in his career. In no way is this a settled position. In fact besides safety this was easily the worst position on the entire team last season. Potential is great, but if they're truly going to make it they should be able to make it on the field regardless of who is in their way.

I'd jump for joy if the Pats signed Lardarius Webb to an offer sheet or signed Carr, Porter, Rodgers, Thomas, ect. There is nothing wrong with adding another guy. I don't particularly like most of the corners in this class besides Jenkins or Claiborne(obviously), but a second round guy might be ok. Sooner or later you're bound to eventually hit. Competition is a good thing, and the team can't win the Superbowl if the corners continue to play as god awful as they did last year.

I'd love to sign any of those FAs. My point is that I don't want to continue drafting CBs high and not address the rest of the defense. I don't consider the CB position as settled, but I think that there is potential there and the team owes itself to see what they have there before they move on.

cmarq83
02-29-2012, 02:29 PM
To me personally it makes so much more sense to stay in a 4-3 than a 3-4. We have Wilfork who is great in either scheme and Spikes who'd be better in 3-4, but we have at least serviceable guys for 5 of the 7 in the front 7 and if we retain Anderson and Carter then we'd have a front 7 that I'd be pretty comfortable going into 2012 with. We can add a piece to the DL here and there, but

Carter-Love-Wilfork-Anderson
Ninkovich/Fletcher-Spikes-Mayo

is pretty solid. I like Kyle Love a lot more than most, but he played really well in every game except the Super Bowl, and really besides Wilfork was probably our most consistently good player on defense last year. For a 2 year pro he's vastly exceeded my expectations. I think he needs to figure into the long term plans as well.

I think our emphasis this offseason should really go towards CB, S, and a deep threat WR. I know BB can work out a serviceable front 7 with what he has, but we have nobody on the roster right now who can fill out the other spots.

Razor
02-29-2012, 02:35 PM
Carter-Love-Wilfork-Anderson
Ninkovich/Fletcher-Spikes-Mayo

How is that serviceable? You'd have a DL that can't generate consistent pass rush and lack the athleticism to chase down players. You'd also have to suffer through another season with Ninko sucking balls at OLB and Fletcher missing assignments. I'm sorry, but I can't tolerate that as a fan. I agree that staying in the 4-3 is clever since so many teams are running the 3-4, but if that's the case you need to make a splash for some impact D-linemen. You'd need a 3-tech and two athletic DEs. The cost of staying in the 4-3 are pretty high imo, but switching back to the 3-4 has a lot of bust potential too. BB has put himself in a tough spot here and I can't wait to see what he does. But I'm pretty sure that he's going to aggressively target D-linemen/pass rushers and safeties - not CBs.

FlyingElvis
02-29-2012, 02:38 PM
How is that serviceable? You'd have a DL that can't generate consistent pass rush and lack the athleticism to chase down players. You'd also have to suffer through another season with Ninko sucking balls at OLB and Fletcher missing assignments. I'm sorry, but I can't tolerate that as a fan. I agree that staying in the 4-3 is clever since so many teams are running the 3-4, but if that's the case you need to make a splash for some impact D-linemen. You'd need a 3-tech and two athletic DEs. The cost of staying in the 4-3 are pretty high imo, but switching back to the 3-4 has a lot of bust potential too. BB has put himself in a tough spot here and I can't wait to see what he does. But I'm pretty sure that he's going to aggressively target D-linemen/pass rushers and safeties - not CBs.

I agree.

Except the part about BB aggressively targeting DL/Passrush/S. He'll target a C, TE and CB because he reads these boards and does everything in his power to destroy our happiness.

Jvig43
02-29-2012, 02:44 PM
I agree.

Except the part about BB aggressively targeting DL/Passrush/S. He'll target a C, TE and CB because he reads these boards and does everything in his power to destroy our happiness.

Haha so true, hes the biggest troll on this board.

cmarq83
02-29-2012, 02:58 PM
How is that serviceable? You'd have a DL that can't generate consistent pass rush and lack the athleticism to chase down players. You'd also have to suffer through another season with Ninko sucking balls at OLB and Fletcher missing assignments. I'm sorry, but I can't tolerate that as a fan. I agree that staying in the 4-3 is clever since so many teams are running the 3-4, but if that's the case you need to make a splash for some impact D-linemen. You'd need a 3-tech and two athletic DEs. The cost of staying in the 4-3 are pretty high imo, but switching back to the 3-4 has a lot of bust potential too. BB has put himself in a tough spot here and I can't wait to see what he does. But I'm pretty sure that he's going to aggressively target D-linemen/pass rushers and safeties - not CBs.

Well the Pass Rush racked up 40 sacks last season and 11 more in the playoffs and played a major role in beating the Broncos and the Ravens. Carter, Ninkovich, and Anderson all fit better in a 4-3 and combined for 27 sacks last year. We were certainly better last year at rushing the passer than the year before where we were god awful despite leading most of the time by double digits. Before Carter went down the Anderson/Carter Duo was actually really good. I'd like a long term solution at pass rusher too, and if there is a good value in the early rounds I'd certainly take it. However, McCourty was the only corner to give up over 1000 yards in a season since they started tracking it, Dowling has lingering injury issues, and Arrington really struggled past week 8 last year.

It's easy to say well McCourty and Dowling should do better because of X and Y reasons, but in reality we've done that the past two seasons with guys like Butler and Bodden and it's bitten us on the ass. Improved Cornerback play is likely going to correlate with better success on defense than improved play form the DL. Last year the DL wasn't the problem, it was the secondary not being able to cover anyone.

There is a tendency to deflect blame away from the corners because they're young and we invested a lot of resources into them, but in reality QB's are throwing at our corners in man coverage and oftentimes they look absolutely lost. It was such a surprise to see Sterling Moore break up those passes, but it shouldn't be because that is what teams with good CB's get with regularity.

Also, Ninko played fairly well last season, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that he sucked.

cmarq83
02-29-2012, 04:00 PM
I'd love to sign any of those FAs. My point is that I don't want to continue drafting CBs high and not address the rest of the defense. I don't consider the CB position as settled, but I think that there is potential there and the team owes itself to see what they have there before they move on.

Missed this post. I prefer the free agents to the draft too. I'd really only be ok with Gilmore or Jenkins in the first and Hosley on day 2. I still think it's the #2 need on this team though behind safety. I'd love Webb sooooo much even if it cost us a first and a hefty contract.

I'm also not saying I don't want D-lineman, it's just that I'd be more comfortable going in with the D-lineman we had last year than the CB's we had last year. We got better production from them no matter how you slice it.

TNPatsFan
02-29-2012, 10:15 PM
Well they have enough draft picks in the first three rounds to address all the defensive positions including CB. It's what they should have done last year when they inexplicably drafted all offense with the exception of Dowling. I'm still hoping for a draft heavy on defense. And I'll take as many FA DB's that they can get on top of that.

Matthew Jones
03-04-2012, 01:00 PM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while and has seemingly never really been considered, but does anyone think Fletcher Cox could potentially play the elephant role in New England's 3-4 better than he could handle the responsibilities we assign to a defensive end? Cox has no anchor and gets completely neutralized by double teams, which are the two main traits Belichick looks for in a two-gap end, but he is very powerful and surprisingly athletic and has some experience in a two-point stance and dropping into coverage. Of course, if the team wanted to utilize him as a one-gap under tackle in four-man fronts and a situational one-gap defensive end in odd fronts on obvious passing downs, that would be an option, but I just want to make sure we've covered every possibility.

Razor
03-04-2012, 01:03 PM
This is something I've been thinking about for a while and has seemingly never really been considered, but does anyone think Fletcher Cox could potentially play the elephant role in New England's 3-4 better than he could handle the responsibilities we assign to a defensive end? Cox has no anchor and gets completely neutralized by double teams, which are the two main traits Belichick looks for in a two-gap end, but he is very powerful and surprisingly athletic and has some experience in a two-point stance and dropping into coverage. Maybe if he lost ten pounds and played at 6'4", 285? Just a thought.

That's definitely an interesting thought. But I really don't see Cox having the necessary burst or suddenness to beat tackles in the NFL. I really like Cox as a 3-tech, but I don't think he's a very good fit in other roles than that. If we stay in the 4-3 I'd love to get Cox.

descendency
03-05-2012, 07:26 AM
but does anyone think Fletcher Cox could potentially play the elephant role in New England's 3-4

I like the thought, but that's way way way too much projection.

It's hard enough to project a DE to OLB, let alone a DT to OLB.

Sloopy
03-07-2012, 08:06 AM
I encourage you all to check out my latest 4 round mock draft :)

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51453

cmarq83
03-10-2012, 04:29 PM
With a little more than a month to go before the draft starts and a right before free agency, here's my most recent Patriots mock.

27) Janoris Jenkins CB, North Alabama
31) Shea McClellin DE/OLB, Boise St.
48) Harrison Smith S, Notre Dame
63) Marvin McNutt WR, Iowa
94) Derek Wolfe DT, Cincinnati
126) Jeff Fuller WR, Texas A&M

I think the first 3 picks are pretty self explanatory. McNutt I feel has been criminally underrated this whole process, and after timing well at the combine there isn't any reason why he shouldn't go in the 2nd. Wolfe is a great pass rusher and a good value guy who can get plenty of reps in our nickel package. Plus, I think he's a lot more stout in the run game than people give him credit for. I think he could 2 gap the same way Mike Wright could. Finally, Fuller is a shot in the dark. He has a lot of rough edges, but he's at least has 2nd round type ability.

Vaylor
03-10-2012, 06:45 PM
Whoa Shea McClellin in the 1st? I love the guy but a 1st round pick seems a little too rich for my blood.

Matthew Jones
03-10-2012, 11:41 PM
Since we're on the subject of pass rushers, how about exploring a trade for Ray Edwards? Tedy Bruschi once spoke about how Belichick considered him the most dangerous player on Minnesota's defense despite Jared Allen's presence on the other side of the line. Edwards struggled in Atlanta last season but is 27 years old with great size at 6'5", 268 and an affordable contract: only $18.5 million left over four seasons. I believe all of the guarantees have been paid, and Atlanta may be looking to free up some cash for a player such as Mario Williams or Dwight Freeney. Top pass rushers nowadays get paid roughly $12 million per season, and Edwards' 2012 cap number is only $3 million. Atlanta may not be willing to give up on him after just one season especially considering his reasonable salary, but he would be an intriguing player to buy low on if available. Maybe the Patriots could pry him away for a third-round pick? The chance to acquire a player with the strength to play DE, the athleticism to play OLB, and the intelligence and bulk to handle both doesn't present itself often. Robert Mathis is four years older and just got paid almost twice what Edwards will earn over the next four seasons despite being a more one-dimensional player and producing opposite Freeney.

TNPatsFan
03-11-2012, 08:20 AM
I like Ray Edwards but I don't think Atlanta has any interest in moving him. Also, I'm not up on the salary cap figures for the player but I'm not really sure how much money it would "free up" for them to benefit by trading him. Finally, from the Pats perspective, I personally don't like to trade draft picks for a player when there are similar players available in free agency or the draft (eg Mike Wallace), plus I doubt the Pats could get him for a third even if Atlanta was willing to move him.

RaiderNation
03-15-2012, 03:08 PM
Which pass rusher in this drafts fits your defense the most? I think you guys will end up trading up for a defender if you guys don't get Mike Wallace, and a pass rusher will likely be the position you will look to draft. Would Belichick like Courtney Upshaw(despite being short) or Melvin Ingram(also smaller than Belichick likes as well) more?

cmarq83
03-15-2012, 03:11 PM
Which pass rusher in this drafts fits your defense the most? I think you guys will end up trading up for a defender if you guys don't get Mike Wallace, and a pass rusher will likely be the position you will look to draft. Would Belichick like Courtney Upshaw(despite being short) or Melvin Ingram(also smaller than Belichick likes as well) more?

I don't really see the Pats trading up significantly for either Upshaw or Ingram. If one of them falls to them then great, but honestly guys like McClellin or Branch fit what BB looks for better. If BB has to trade down he will, or it's just as likely that he'll go with a guy like Konz or Jenkins if he feels that the value is better for those guys in the first.

descendency
03-15-2012, 05:04 PM
Cam Johnson is a prototypical bill belichick OLB.

Vaylor
03-15-2012, 05:30 PM
Shea McClellin seems like a player Belichick would love as well.

Matthew Jones
03-16-2012, 07:55 PM
How about Kelechi Osemele for a potential surprise pick in the first round? Osemele's stock is much higher than most people seem to think and he has a realistic shot at going in the first round because he is a collegiate left tackle with impressive measurables (6'6", 333, 36" arms) and nimble feet.

By the end of the 2012 season it's likely that both Matt Light and Brian Waters will be enjoying retirement. That would suggest the following offensive line assuming New England stands pat:

Solder - Mankins - Connolly - Cannon - Vollmer

However, Vollmer is a free agent at the end of the year and could demand big money despite struggling through an injury-plagued 2011 season in which he missed ten games. Eric Winston is a quality free agent who plays right tackle and has been bothered by some injuries during his career; the contract he ends up signing will influence what right tackles look for in the future. One rumor is that Winston is looking for $10 million per season.

Would the Patriots pay Vollmer that? New England could be forced to tag Vollmer and risk a holdout or end up trading him. They could also trade him preemptively this offseason (similar to Seymour), or let Vollmer walk in free agency and collect a third-round compensatory pick. It might be a mistake to rely heavily on Vollmer as a short-term option as well given his injury issues this year. So the Patriots may have to look for a right tackle as well as a right guard.

Marcus Cannon is supposedly going to play one of the two positions. But unless New England wants to risk having to start both Connolly and Wendell on the offensive line, it might be a good idea to draft a tackle at the end of the first round with the rookie pay scale in place. Osemele could reasonably project to either right guard or right tackle as well, so the Patriots would have flexibility in arranging their offensive line according to the strengths of their personnel. What about a future line of:

Solder - Mankins - Connolly - Cannon - Osemele

Matthew Jones
03-16-2012, 08:00 PM
My order of operations would be as follows:

1. Approach Vollmer about signing a contract extension this offseason to gauge his demands.

2. Sign him to an extension which pays a significant amount of money this season given the Patriots' current cap flexibility if his demands are reasonable.

3. If Vollmer's demands are unreasonable, look to draft an offensive lineman early in the draft for leverage as well as for security in case Vollmer goes down.

4. Place the franchise tag on Vollmer at the end of the 2012 season and try to work something out, or trade him if possible. Trading Vollmer preemptively this offseason would be risky considering teams will have concerns about his health following the 2011 season.

Matthew Jones
03-16-2012, 08:02 PM
Also of note: the only major Patriots free agents following the 2012 season are Vollmer, Wes Welker, Brian Waters, and Patrick Chung (who is restricted.) Vollmer is the only player who could reasonably be tagged.

cmarq83
03-16-2012, 08:13 PM
I'm not crazy about Osemele and would be much happier with Zeitler in round 1. I do think the Vollmer situation is one to keep an eye on. You can tell BB likes Vollmer a lot considering he kept him active all year despite his injury, but it'll be interesting because the guy has LT ability, and I doubt teams wouldn't be willing to shell out Winston type money and possibly more if he returns to his 2010 form.

Also, I believe Chung will be in have finished his 4th season and will be an UFA at the end of next season. If he remains healthy I could see him getting the franchise tag as well since it's fairly cheap to tag a safety, and when Chung is on the field he's a fringe Pro Bowl type guy.

Matthew Jones
03-17-2012, 02:00 AM
Some news about the Pats:

- Were at Cincinnati's Pro Day (Derek Wolfe?)

- Were at Louisiana St.'s Pro Day (Randle, Brockers, Claiborne, Ron Brooks, Brandon Taylor?)

- Scheduled official visit with Michael Brockers

- Scheduled private workout with Ron Brooks

- Were at Arizona's State's Pro Day

- Scheduled workout with Omar Bolden

Razor
03-17-2012, 02:39 AM
The Pats have said that Cannon will be a tackle going forward. So I would rule out Osemele. Zeitler is my guy as well..

Matthew Jones
03-17-2012, 10:28 AM
The Pats have said that Cannon will be a tackle going forward. So I would rule out Osemele. Zeitler is my guy as well..

Keep in mind that Osemele is often projected to guard as well. He's a very similar prospect to Cannon; Kelechi has a gargantuan frame but nimble feet. The Patriots also heavily value players who played LT in college.

Matthew Jones
03-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Here's my latest projection (not necessarily ideal):

1. (from Saints) CB Stephon Gilmore, South Carolina*

The Patriots love drafting DBs high and prize SEC experience and great cone drills; Gilmore may not make it this far.

1. Pick traded for a 2013 first-round pick

2. (from Raiders) SS Harrison Smith, Notre Dame

This pick would be changed if the Patriots were to sign LaRon Landry in the coming days, but for now it'll remain Harrison Smith.

2. WR Joe Adams, Arkansas

New England has met with Adams multiple times; Arkansas runs a pro-style spread and Mallett's former target contributes as a returner.

3. DT Derek Wolfe, Cincinnati

Defensive tackle/defensive end tweener with size and the potential to rush from the interior; Pats have worked him out privately.

4. FS Brandon Taylor, Louisiana St.

Another private workout; Taylor seems like someone the Patriots may be interested in despite his poor tackling and angles.

cmarq83
03-17-2012, 11:49 AM
I know it's not what BB thinks, but I personally would stay far away from Gilmore in the first. He simply is a a good college cornerback who happens to be a great athlete. He certainly struggled mightily at times last year and had his stock plummeted accordingly until the combine.

We've been burned too many times before and I'd like to see them go with a guy like Janoris Jenkins before they'd go Gilmore. We've been burned by combines with corners far too many times before, and I'd like it if we stayed out of that trap.

Blackluck
04-02-2012, 10:57 AM
Here are the measurables for potential 3/4 OLBs. Nick Perry isn't a scheme fit per se, but he's included for reference. He has very nice measurables except oddly enough his 20 yard shuttle. These are combine numbers, pro day numbers would probably be better. I did not include C. Upshaw as it's not looking like he's a pass rusher (in fact I'm starting to agree with Lombardi from NFL Network - where do you play Upshaw?)
(columns are 40, BP, Vert, Cone, Shuttle, Broadjump, I can't get the headers to line up with the columns, sorry for the formatting:( )


Jake Bequette 4.82 34 6.9 4.07 9'5
Andre Branch 4.7 32.5 7.19 4.25 10'0
Shea McClellin 4.63 19 31.5 7.07 4.33 9'10
Chandler Jones 4.87 22 35 7.07 4.38 10'0
Cam Johnson 4.81 35 7.2 4.38 8'9
W.Mercilus 4.68 27 32 7.17 4.53 9'1
Nick Perry 4.64 35 38.5 7.25 4.66 10'4
Vinny Curry 4.98 32 6.9 4.4 9'2



Just looking at the raw numbers, I can't help but think that Belichick won't take Branch at 27 as he'll think he can get 'comparable value' by taking one of the other guys in the second (until someone offers him a trade he can't refuse, then it's the third and these guys are all gone lol.)

Razor
04-02-2012, 01:25 PM
As of right now the two pass rushers I want for NE are Shea McClellin and Chandler Jones. If we stay in the 3-4 Shea is my guy, if not I want Jones. Jones does have insane upside though so I wouldn't be opposed to taking him over Shea...

descendency
04-02-2012, 02:33 PM
4. FS Brandon Taylor, Louisiana St.

Another private workout; Taylor seems like someone the Patriots may be interested in despite his poor tackling and angles.

I like this mock, but I really doubt Brandon Taylor is available at the bottom of the 4th.

Blackluck
04-02-2012, 05:57 PM
As of right now the two pass rushers I want for NE are Shea McClellin and Chandler Jones. If we stay in the 3-4 Shea is my guy, if not I want Jones. Jones does have insane upside though so I wouldn't be opposed to taking him over Shea...

Mayock just put Shea McClellin at #2 for his OLB.
Hmm. Wonder how fast he's rising up draft boards.

Blackluck
04-05-2012, 05:26 AM
Patriot Mock:

27 Harrison Smith FS
Not enamored with this pick, as it's a bit of a reach but there aren't very many players left at any position with first round grades. Smith probably will be a solid but not pro bowl level FS. However he's better than anyone we have at the position and will likely be gone by 48. (I also don't know how much better Smith would be over someone like Brandon Taylor or M. Martin, both of whom can be had in the 2nd or 3rd. Even so, who do we pick instead? Just seems like an awkward spot for us.)

31 Shea McClellin 3/4 OLB

Two teams that pick right after us at 27 - Green Bay (28) and Baltimore (29) - love to trade down as much as we do, therefore we might not find a trading partner for this pick. Green Bay also has the same needs as us on defense, so there's a good chance S. McClellin is off the boards at 28. There's an equally good chance we don't draft any OLBs. I mean, how many have been mocked to us over the years? How many have we taken? (The other OLB I would like is Vinny Curry, who may be available later in the second.)

It would also be an interesting situation here if due to Upshaw's horrible measures he drops and is sitting at 31 what Belichick would do. Do you draft a football player with great college production and find a way to play him despite his combine and pro day numbers? I probably would.


48 Kendall Reyes, DE - Self explanatory :)

62 Brandon Boykin, CB
I'm not sure if Boykin lasts this far. Fairly deep CB draft though, so I think it's probable we end up with one here. Boykin offers ST/returner value as well.

93 Marvin McNutt WR
There are a number of WRs they can pick here, most are projects, and we all know we've had problems developing receivers. Tommy Streeter might be interesting here. Another safety might not be out of the question.

126 Tony Bergstrom, G, Utah -
Shot in the dark on a guard prospect :)
***
If it were up to me I would probably package 27 and 62 and move up to 17-20 for Brockers or if for some inexplicable reason DeCastro dropped (I think there's almost zero chance M.Floyd gets out of the Top Ten.) I don't think there are any pass rushers that fit our scheme in that range, and there is comparable value for most of the remaining DL prospects.

GallopingGhost
04-05-2012, 07:05 AM
I could see NE drafting one of the big name safeties high. I'm a big fan of Chung because he flies out there but nobody else has really complimented him.

cmarq83
04-05-2012, 07:18 AM
Patriot Mock:

27 Harrison Smith FS
Not enamored with this pick, as it's a bit of a reach but there aren't very many players left at any position with first round grades. Smith probably will be a solid but not pro bowl level FS. However he's better than anyone we have at the position and will likely be gone by 48. (I also don't know how much better Smith would be over someone like Brandon Taylor or M. Martin, both of whom can be had in the 2nd or 3rd. Even so, who do we pick instead? Just seems like an awkward spot for us.)

31 Shea McClellin 3/4 OLB

Two teams that pick right after us at 27 - Green Bay (28) and Baltimore (29) - love to trade down as much as we do, therefore we might not find a trading partner for this pick. Green Bay also has the same needs as us on defense, so there's a good chance S. McClellin is off the boards at 28. There's an equally good chance we don't draft any OLBs. I mean, how many have been mocked to us over the years? How many have we taken? (The other OLB I would like is Vinny Curry, who may be available later in the second.)

It would also be an interesting situation here if due to Upshaw's horrible measures he drops and is sitting at 31 what Belichick would do. Do you draft a football player with great college production and find a way to play him despite his combine and pro day numbers? I probably would.


48 Kendall Reyes, DE - Self explanatory :)

62 Brandon Boykin, CB
I'm not sure if Boykin lasts this far. Fairly deep CB draft though, so I think it's probable we end up with one here. Boykin offers ST/returner value as well.

93 Marvin McNutt WR
There are a number of WRs they can pick here, most are projects, and we all know we've had problems developing receivers. Tommy Streeter might be interesting here. Another safety might not be out of the question.

126 Tony Bergstrom, G, Utah -
Shot in the dark on a guard prospect :)
***
If it were up to me I would probably package 27 and 62 and move up to 17-20 for Brockers or if for some inexplicable reason DeCastro dropped (I think there's almost zero chance M.Floyd gets out of the Top Ten.) I don't think there are any pass rushers that fit our scheme in that range, and there is comparable value for most of the remaining DL prospects.

Not bad, there are some reaches in their in terms of prospects and draft spots, but McClellin, Smith, and McNutt are 3 of my favorite prospects so I won't complain.

Don Vito
04-05-2012, 07:58 AM
Every year we have the token players that are mocked to us. Kendall Reyes is going to the Pats in just about every mock. Harrison Smith and She McClellin are right there too. If we take anyone I think it is Smith, but we may not end up with him because I think we will take Barron.

AntoinCD
04-05-2012, 08:04 AM
Despite the Pats having many issues on defense, if they were to trade up in the first the player I would want would be on offense and that is DeCastro.

If DeCastro is around at Philadelphia's pick I could imagine a scenario where BB trades with Andy Reid. The history is there for the Pats and Eagles as trade partners and the Eagles don't have many major needs and could do with more depth.

I know people don't necessarily want to hear it but I think this draft is a good draft to stay put and draft for value, or if they were to move up, only move a few spots and not go mad getting into the top 15.

Safety, CB and pass rushers are the main needs and between picks 20 and 50 the value is right on most of them.

Mo Claiborne will be gone in the top 5. No other CB is gauranteed to be a top 20 pick.

No safety SHOULD be a top 20 pick.

After Coples and Ingram (neither of whom are good fits) no pass rusher is guaranteed to go top 20.

Also at DT, players like Cox and Still will fall because higher upside guys such as Poe and Brockers will be overdrafted.

Don Vito
04-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Mankins and Decastro...

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lypqxg82M51ro9fdao2_400.jpg (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lypqxg82M51ro9fdao2_400.jpg)

That is a lot to give up for a guard though. If we could land him I would cum everywhere, our line would be the most ridiculous thing ever. Throw in Solder and Cannon for the future, holy **** balls.

cmarq83
04-05-2012, 10:20 AM
I think Zeitler is almost as good. I'd rather just stay at 27 than give up an extra pick to get Decastro.

Blackluck
04-05-2012, 10:29 AM
I wouldn't have quite the same reaction :cj: but Decastro would be awesome; anytime you have a chance to add elite talent regardless of position I think you take it. That said, it's hard to imagine he drops past 15, as I wouldn't want to move up past that (for any pick.)

From the look of it, Brockers is exactly what we need for a 5 technique, and if he gets past Carolina I think trading up isn't out of the question.

Barron seems to be generating a lot of interest and is not likely to be around late in the first. Unlike many Pat's fan I think he would be a good pick for us, redundancy with Chung notwithstanding.

The three OLB's I think that might fit us are McClellin, Branch and Curry. Branch sorta scares me though from the various scouting reports I've read.

There are quite a few CB's that would be good choices, at least on paper. I'd stay away from Jenkins, too many off the field question marks.

Don Vito
04-05-2012, 12:27 PM
I wouldn't have quite the same reaction :cj: but Decastro would be awesome; anytime you have a chance to add elite talent regardless of position I think you take it. That said, it's hard to imagine he drops past 15, as I wouldn't want to move up past that (for any pick.)

From the look of it, Brockers is exactly what we need for a 5 technique, and if he gets past Carolina I think trading up isn't out of the question.

Barron seems to be generating a lot of interest and is not likely to be around late in the first. Unlike many Pat's fan I think he would be a good pick for us, redundancy with Chung notwithstanding.

The three OLB's I think that might fit us are McClellin, Branch and Curry. Branch sorta scares me though from the various scouting reports I've read.

There are quite a few CB's that would be good choices, at least on paper. I'd stay away from Jenkins, too many off the field question marks.

I love DeCastro but I completely agree with you. DeCastro is the better prospect, but Zeitler is an absolute beast and one of my three or four favorite prospects in this class (along with DeCastro). I would definitely take DeCastro over him, but there is no way we could get him unless we move up a lot. Zeitler should be there at 27 or even 31 and I would be very happy with him. I don't think you can go wrong with either but you don't see teams move up a lot in the first for interior OL, no matter how special DeCastro looks.

Razor
04-08-2012, 10:36 AM
Just thought I'd share this in here and see what you have to say about this:


The more I think of it I find it increasingly likely that NE won't make any selections in the first round this year. There are a lot of players with late first round or early first round value and when BB has many players valued equally he'll most likely trade down. People are going to trade up for Adams, Fleener, Jenkins, Randle etc... We're most likely to come out of this draft with another first next year at least, possibly two, and/or another second round pick this year. The weird part of that is me being somewhat OK with that. I just want Chandler Jones and then I'll be happy to move on from this draft class.

cmarq83
04-08-2012, 11:27 AM
You know Razor, for as much as you and I disagree that mock you have in your sig is pretty nice. The only thing I'd change is that first pick for J. Jenkins or Zeitler.

Razor
04-08-2012, 11:29 AM
You know Razor, for as much as you and I disagree that mock you have in your sig is pretty nice. The only thing I'd change is that first pick for J. Jenkins or Zeitler.

Wait, we disagree? ;) I've started to cool a bit about Konz tbh but I still feel like center needs to be upgraded if we're to reap the full benefits of having Brady the next 3 or 4 years. We could easily decide to postpone that to next year where the interior OL looks very strong as well, but Konz just has great size and technique. I'd love to overdraft him just to see what Scar can turn him in to.

Blackluck
04-09-2012, 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Razor
The more I think of it I find it increasingly likely that NE won't make any selections in the first round this year. There are a lot of players with late first round or early first round value and when BB has many players valued equally he'll most likely trade down. People are going to trade up for Adams, Fleener, Jenkins, Randle etc... We're most likely to come out of this draft with another first next year at least, possibly two, and/or another second round pick this year. The weird part of that is me being somewhat OK with that. I just want Chandler Jones and then I'll be happy to move on from this draft class.

I too think this is very likely. Get a 2&3 for one of them, and a late 2 and 1 next year (one of these years we'll cash in the extra 1st rounder, but this year doesn't look like that year). Personally there would be three guys I wouldn't pass at 27 if they dropped: Kirkpatrick, Hightower and Brockers.

Blackluck
04-19-2012, 06:34 AM
Not that it matters, but Kiper's latest Patriot mock (posted on Reiss' blog):

Rd1 (27) C. Upshaw
Rd 1 (31) CB Janoris Jenkins, North Alabama
Rd 2 (48) CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida
Rd 2 (62) G Brandon Brooks, Miami (OH)
Rd 3 (93) WR Chris Givens, Wake Forest

The more I think on it, the more I also think JJ would be a good pick. We don't get a chance at a top flight corner often. Yes he has character issues and yes he may self destruct. Worth the risk IMO, especially given who will likely be available in that spot. If we did take him, I wouldn't take another corner at 48 though. Edge rusher (V. Curry?) or maybe a speed rusher (e.g. B. Irvin.) Will need a guard next year so Brooks isn't bad, but I'd probably go Brandon Taylor there, reach though it may be. I don't know anything about Chris Givens. A developmental receiver or RB who offers return value might be a better choice there .

edit: As far as Upshaw, despite his poor measurables I think he'll be a solid player. We could do a lot worse at 27. I read somewhere some scout said he didn't see Upshaw misread a single play. Great instincts and football IQ can overcome lack of speed.

Razor
04-21-2012, 09:26 AM
Just a thought: If Richardson falls beyond #4 to 8, 9 or 10 do we trade up and get him?

Blackluck
04-21-2012, 09:40 AM
Absolutely.

Edit: I don't know if BB would, but our offense with that running back would be nigh unstoppable. Of course if that were to happen (which I cannot imagine) we'd have a fair bit of competition with teams trying to trade up.

TNPatsFan
04-21-2012, 11:02 AM
Normally I would say yes, but the cost to do that would pretty much eliminate any ability to improve the defense through this draft (unless BB is throwing in future first rounders, which I can't imagine him doing). That would mean another year of bad defense and I think that needs to be fixed more than we need a back, as much as I would love to see Trent in the backfield with Ridley and Vereen as the change of pace guys.

Blackluck
04-21-2012, 11:05 AM
But we wouldn't need defense.

And I'm only half joking. :naughty:

cmarq83
04-21-2012, 11:08 AM
Just a thought: If Richardson falls beyond #4 to 8, 9 or 10 do we trade up and get him?

Just a personal thing, but I don't really see Richardson as the clear cut best RB prospect since Peterson. He's a great back, but I'm not sure I'd trade multiple picks to get him. I think we'd get just as large of an improvement drafting a guy like Zeitler at 31 and running more with a traditional fullback as we would with Richardson. I think Ridley and Vereen are talented enough to be productive. I don't think with McDaniels as our OC we'll ever run enough with one back to warrant spending a high pick on Richardson.

cmarq83
04-21-2012, 02:39 PM
The more I think about it the more I want the Pats to trade down from 31 and up from 48. I really like the players at the top of the second. If we can get the kind of guy I think we can at 27 and 2 of the top of the 2nd type guys I think we can put together a really strong class.

Bolt
04-21-2012, 02:48 PM
Just a thought: If Richardson falls beyond #4 to 8, 9 or 10 do we trade up and get him?

I've got Richardson after Luck in my rankings and think he'll be a really special player, but we spent two early round picks on running backs last year and do fine with a running back by comittee backfield. I'd rather improve the D then trade up for him.

TNPatsFan
04-21-2012, 04:09 PM
I don't think with McDaniels as our OC we'll ever run enough with one back to warrant spending a high pick on Richardson.

And that's a really great point. He had Dillon and Maroney (who did look very good at the start of his careeer) and they both rode the bench in the 2nd half of most games, including the AFCC against the Colts when they had a big lead to protect. You'd have to wonder if spending a high pick on RB is a complete waste as long as Josh McD is running the offense.

kennyb
04-23-2012, 01:14 PM
Not that it matters, but Kiper's latest Patriot mock (posted on Reiss' blog):

Rd1 (27) C. Upshaw
Rd 1 (31) CB Janoris Jenkins, North Alabama
Rd 2 (48) CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida
Rd 2 (62) G Brandon Brooks, Miami (OH)
Rd 3 (93) WR Chris Givens, Wake Forest

The more I think on it, the more I also think JJ would be a good pick. We don't get a chance at a top flight corner often. Yes he has character issues and yes he may self destruct. Worth the risk IMO, especially given who will likely be available in that spot. If we did take him, I wouldn't take another corner at 48 though. Edge rusher (V. Curry?) or maybe a speed rusher (e.g. B. Irvin.) Will need a guard next year so Brooks isn't bad, but I'd probably go Brandon Taylor there, reach though it may be. I don't know anything about Chris Givens. A developmental receiver or RB who offers return value might be a better choice there .

edit: As far as Upshaw, despite his poor measurables I think he'll be a solid player. We could do a lot worse at 27. I read somewhere some scout said he didn't see Upshaw misread a single play. Great instincts and football IQ can overcome lack of speed.

That would be a horror. Upshaw is too slow. Jenkins with money would be a full time dope head.

I'm thinking...
barron
nick perry usc
donta' hightower

then later
kendall reyes
greg childs

proshoota25
04-23-2012, 11:51 PM
That would be a horror. Upshaw is too slow. Jenkins with money would be a full time dope head.

I'm thinking...
barron
nick perry usc
donta' hightower

then later
kendall reyes
greg childs

lol we def arent getting that lucky. barron will be gone by 16..... and i doubt we touch nick perry...... unfortunately :-(

Razor
04-24-2012, 01:11 AM
lol we def arent getting that lucky. barron will be gone by 16..... and i doubt we touch nick perry...... unfortunately :-(

Mike Reiss mentioned in his quick hits on sunday the possibility of trading up in the 10-13 range to get Barron. He mentioned Pioli as an obvious trade partner and the fact that his guess is that Barron is the player that BB covets the most. I'm not sure how I feel about trading up for Barron, but if we do I'll still be happy that we got him. He's a very good safety and I think he could be great in this system. Reiss also mentioned Chandler Jones, Shea McClellin and Michael Brockers as players he thinks the Patriots are interested in. I'd be happy with all of them, but especially CJ. I wouldn't trade up for Brockers or McClellin, but I would for the others.

proshoota25
04-24-2012, 01:16 AM
barron would be awesome, but the price will be too high IMO to trade up to get mark barron. i just dont see it happening at all

Nalej
04-24-2012, 07:30 AM
I really really hope we don't trade up for Barron.
Honestly, I hope we don't trade up for anyone.
I think the talent from the middle of the first round til the middle of the 2nd is pretty much even
I like H.Smith as a better compliment to Chung anyways

BradysKnee
04-24-2012, 12:59 PM
I really really hope we don't trade up for Barron.
Honestly, I hope we don't trade up for anyone.
I think the talent from the middle of the first round til the middle of the 2nd is pretty much even
I like H.Smith as a better compliment to Chung anyways

Depends on the pricetag. Barron is a great player I think but I would only like to trade up a maximum of 5-6 slots for him.